Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

Krazy · Post Post #1455 (isolation #0) » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:59 pm

so I mostly took this slot because I read page 58 and thought someone from that page could die

looking at prism's trajectory I think that slot can be town and chara can have a day for being at the front of the day 1 lynch

pool from there is swift, bear, tanner

I like bear from page 1 and for the dun dun dun right now for mostly subjective and game-entertainment reasons

so I'll HURT: tanner and ask if anyone has a good reason to townread either swift or tanner?

my goal is to not read 2-57, I tend to do fine just catching up as we go, but I'm happy to read any specific passages or pages that you think are important

Krazy · Post Post #1493 (isolation #1) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:12 am

Tanner are you an outed alt?

Krazy · Post Post #1494 (isolation #2) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:16 am

We all agree that hectic is like ic levels of obvtown here right

Krazy · Post Post #1496 (isolation #3) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:32 am

well shit. now I'm significantly less excited to push you, but I don't necessarily think you're any less likely to be scum. Are you like roleplaying on this alt because frankly you sound REALLY different to your usual towngame

Krazy · Post Post #1498 (isolation #4) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:13 pm

I'm just suspecting you because of the tone you present on page 58. I'm kinda busy with work for the next hour. Do you have a tiered readslist or anything like that?

I do definitely think you sound a lot more aggressive this game but I also felt like you were being defensive in a kinda scummy way so some of that could be roleplaying but I'm not sure yet if I'd say all of it

Krazy · Post Post #1500 (isolation #5) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:55 pm

I'm mostly thinking of some of the games I modded, although there's always a lot of differences there. {hydras, large themes, etc.}

Anyway can you expand on your tier 3, puppy and taylor?

In terms of your read of my slot, basically it's: suji scumplaceout + something about elements. Can you expand on those or what is the connection you mean?

Also what franchise is tanner from, for some reason it looks familiar but I'm not sure off hand.

Krazy · Post Post #1502 (isolation #6) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:30 pm

are you also an outed alt taylor?

Krazy · Post Post #1505 (isolation #7) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:04 pm

In post 1503, Tayl0r Swift wrote:yes

As much as I appreciate the troll I'm kinda confused since it seemed you played in a newbie game

Krazy · Post Post #1507 (isolation #8) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:21 pm

have you played social deduction before? among us / MU / tos or something?

Krazy · Post Post #1509 (isolation #9) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:40 pm

I can see you're big on succinct answers

Krazy · Post Post #1511 (isolation #10) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:46 pm

Who is the person in Prism's avatar?

Krazy · Post Post #1513 (isolation #11) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:50 pm

what's your read on batman?

Krazy · Post Post #1519 (isolation #12) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:00 pm

Right. Sorry, what's your read on Batwoman (i.e. Morning Tweet)?

Also I don't know any of the names of the teletubbies without googling them but if there's a purple one I'd probably go with that

Krazy · Post Post #1523 (isolation #13) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:08 pm

all you guys are invited to the cow level discord if you want https://discord.gg/HUDmCZB

obviously can't talk about the game but since there's a few new faces thought I'd drop it in case you hadn't been invited yet

Krazy · Post Post #1524 (isolation #14) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:10 pm

In post 1520, Tayl0r Swift wrote:adorable.

damn I think I'm mindmelding on my read of batwoman with you here

good thing you're not a skitter alt otherwise that'd get me in trouble

Krazy · Post Post #1525 (isolation #15) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:11 pm

batwoman what are your reads right now?

Krazy · Post Post #1529 (isolation #16) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:49 pm

What's the source of your confidence in my slot again?

Krazy · Post Post #1532 (isolation #17) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:06 pm

agreed

Krazy · Post Post #1533 (isolation #18) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:07 pm

what are the townie things tanner did that made you like them?

Krazy · Post Post #1535 (isolation #19) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:36 pm

did you miss taylor's entire last page of shitposting?

Krazy · Post Post #1537 (isolation #20) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:59 pm

Krazy · Post Post #1541 (isolation #21) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:27 pm

In post 1539, Tayl0r Swift wrote:krazy are you scum?

no r u?

Krazy · Post Post #1542 (isolation #22) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:29 pm

In post 1485, Tanner wrote:i realized i don't feel like linking shit but like... their interactions about elements and his wagon are Not Great,

this is what I was asking about, which interactions with elements did you mean and/or expand on the issue with his wagon

Krazy · Post Post #1547 (isolation #23) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:03 pm

leaning daddy and batgirl at the moment but still sorting some slots

Krazy · Post Post #1551 (isolation #24) » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:09 pm

I don't have a strong enough conception of the setup to differentiate between different types of scum at this point

Krazy · Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:38 am

In post 1559, Morning Tweet wrote:Please just let us kill Sujimichi!! I promise I will go over all the paranoia analysis on D3 if necessary, starting with the player who got NKed's posts

ill carry your torch or whatever

I feel pretty decent about that not happening but if it does, i got u

well when I replace into a slot and people are saying stuff like this, given that I'm town the people wanting to push through my lynch based on predecessor actions without evaluating my slot will tend to be scum

There does seem to be some push on me, some of which is clearly coming from town, but of the slots pushing my lynch right now yours looks a bit scummier than Hectic's. I'll think on it more on the morrow

Krazy · Post Post #1678 (isolation #26) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:27 pm

In post 1666, Chara wrote:i was really hoping to pressure whoever repped in, but with that not being an option, i think i would have tried pushing elsewhere if i'd been up to it this day.

?

Krazy · Post Post #1685 (isolation #27) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:53 pm

Chara have I played vs. your scum game? I feel like I did once but I cannot recall when

Krazy · Post Post #1694 (isolation #28) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:08 pm

I will say chara not seeming to know I'm in the game certainly does not match my expectations of scum trying to push through a mislynch

This page seems townie tho yeah

Krazy · Post Post #1695 (isolation #29) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:10 pm

In post 1693, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:if chara/prism are the last 2 scum we probly lose enh

Don't say stuff like this ur gonna jinx us

Krazy · Post Post #1701 (isolation #30) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:13 pm

I'm not ignoring you doggo I'm just still processing stuff

Krazy · Post Post #1702 (isolation #31) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Prism feels really town here so if we're wrong in chara/prism t+t I think it would be chara but I also think there's almost no scenario where chara is today's lynch so I'm not going to worry about him a lot rn

Krazy · Post Post #1705 (isolation #32) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:19 pm

In post 1566, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:if we lynch chara today we win outright

if we miss chara and it suicides - we still have to find the last scum to win

Off topic but does anyone else get bemused replacing chara with Chara?

Imagine he's the deepwolf and everytime someone says something like this he gets spooked

Krazy · Post Post #1708 (isolation #33) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:24 pm

In post 1567, Prism wrote:Hey Krazy, I get that reading the earlier pages probably seems like a big hassle considering the amount of time your slot likely has left alive. I also get that we tend to have much more faith in reads we form while personally involved and active as things progress.

There is a ton of value in Day 1 this game, though, because of the scum wagon that turned this game into Day 2 whiteflag. I think Ctrl+F searching "Elements" in ISOs you're interested in is a good medium, there shouldn't be a lot even if you bothered to do it for every slot, let alone just 2 or 3.

Right now I'm kind of biased because Day 1 is telling me MT is really unlikely, and while the continued suspicion of Puppy might be scumindicative from Tanner, I readily believe that I'm just a lot more inclined to give Puppy significantly more leeway as far as what thoughts seem plausible goes. I really doubt it's MT and don't think it's Tanner is my point, I guess.

I think Tayl0r is, and should, probably be the #1 alternative choice to you right now. I still haven't made up my mind on my tinfoil theory but I have time again to tackle the game today, and hopefully Chara is around and we can either work this out or I can continue my spiral into insanity and gladiate them Day 3.

What throws me in this post is that I feel like in 1571 you're basically mapping out why I kinda think Tanner is kinda scummy. Like at the end you're like "am I missing something" and I feel like the answer there would be 'tanner being scum'. Idk a lot of the time I think scum is more likely to be advancing positions where you end up feeling "I just see this player a bit differently"

Krazy · Post Post #1709 (isolation #34) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:30 pm

In post 1589, CantHateAPuppy wrote:
In post 1461, CantHateAPuppy wrote:
In post 1455, Krazy wrote:so I'll HURT: tanner and ask if anyone has a good reason to townread either swift or tanner?
i townread tanner because he is pushing stubbornly up in situations that would be easier for town to shirk back from. he's still trying to push a case on me (?) when i'm obvtown (iso my votes on the elements scum wagon from yesterday). is that a "good reason" for you?
ok pooky, if krazy gives me a good answer to this question i might unvote him. (or not)

I guess I'd need to review more on why you're obvtown or see yourself as such, but I don't in general think a player pushing obvtown makes them town. Admittedly some of my read is warped by generally feeling like town datisi often feels on the lurky/reactive side even though that may not be how he conceptualizes his play and anything I say about him is going to be six months out of date anyway. Mostly my read on him is tone/meta though and I'll review some chunks of day 1 tomorrow probably to see how I feel about him then but so far the things you're saying should make tanner town don't really seal that deal for me. Also this is like a really townie town so there's not a lot of other slots jumping out at me

Krazy · Post Post #1712 (isolation #35) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:34 pm

In post 1591, CantHateAPuppy wrote:damn nobody posted any intro questions this game huh. we really just jumped straight into mech talk about sparing (lame) and fighting (super awesome mega cool its just like mafia) huh.

krazy, it's time to GTKAS:

1) are u town or scum
2) do u prefer to play town or scum
3) what was your best game
4) coffee or tea?

I already answered 1 but still town

I generally prefer playing town

Probably still ircher's large normal

I gave up caffeine

Does rqs help you scumhunt? I don't want to contribute to the noise level of the thread and it's nice to talk to you but are there more interesting questions you have for me?

Like what are you looking for here?

Krazy · Post Post #1715 (isolation #36) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:37 pm

In post 1644, Tanner wrote:
In post 1561, Krazy wrote:There does seem to be some push on me, some of which is clearly coming from town, but of the slots pushing my lynch right now yours looks a bit scummier than Hectic's. I'll think on it more on the morrow
so uhh what was the deal with 1494?

response to prism's 1571:
~ i'm not arguing puppy's 100% scum. i would be pushing him with much more power if i thought so.
~ i want to argue "considering the way day one went, what the hell *was* scum doing?" is why i'm paranoid and kinda annoyed, but i guess the question here is "is it plausible for town to assume no bussing", which. i dunno. i guess.
~ 1225 made me uneasy because it seemed like a weaker townlean than the day earlier, and that last part made me think he was going to ~stop~ townleaning me in the future? that's what i meant by aligning, or like preparing himself to be able to walk back in the future, because scum still needs misfights and i'm assuming they're planning for me to be one of them.

having typed this out, i feel guilty of "ascribing scum motivations to posts rather than looking for it", so yeah. i dunno what to tell you. if puppy's not scum, then from my pov it's either some combination of lavender/krazy/taylor or something's very wrong. i don't know if there's a combination of those that outirght works. and that worries me.

i still got like 2 pages to read, but in the meantime
@hectic, how sure are you of morning-tweet!town today? and could you give me a shotgun readslist?

This is scummy

Krazy · Post Post #1724 (isolation #37) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:45 pm

659

For the lazy

Krazy · Post Post #1853 (isolation #38) » Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:48 pm

In post 1802, Morning Tweet wrote:Quick, someone vote me. Krazy? You know you want to

On it! VOTE: Morning Tweet

I don't know what I just did to my sleep schedule but it probably was nothing good

Krazy · Post Post #1885 (isolation #39) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:36 am

I think Prism is easily my strongest townread now and I'd guess at least some of the pushback on her is scum motivated, either the paranoid nka spec suggested in 1877 or tweet continuing to tunnel me while selling the idea that not tunneling me is scummy in 1882. I disagree and think Hectic is still probably town, but I do have to entertain the idea he's not especially if he continues to refuse to work with me. If Hectic is scum, I think he'd be chara and sees no downside in hard tunneling my slot since if I understand the setup he just dies when I die anyway.

I suppose my worry is that chara would be in one of the two slots hard diving me since the mire they keep the conversation warped around my slot the less town will have to work with when looking at their iso. That being said I still think hectic is just town. So I guess I think tweet is chara? At least her play makes the most sense to me for chara right now and I have an easier time thinking of hectic as just hard tunneled.

Krazy · Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:21 am

If tayl0r is scum then she is playing like blatant scum (the player) I guess, problem there is she seemed pretty happy to be early on breaking up the status quo of me being the consensus fight so I guess I'm not as warm on that. Tayl0r as chara I guess would match well with her not playing very tryhard and leaning into shitposting. Still I think would also be dangerous for her as chara to 'phone it in' so brazenly since really if she got lynched because we thought she was chara scum would autolose I think. So my sense overall is that she's just low wim town but I can see the world of her being scum I guess. The way she kinda gave up was ?? and as I said I don't like her lowkey shading prism

Krazy · Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:29 am

In post 1534, Morning Tweet wrote:
In post 1531, Tayl0r Swift wrote:i think we should give elements the benefit of the doubt here.
In post 1532, Krazy wrote:agreed
huh

Based on tweet kinda willfully not getting the joke here I guess I could see something like a tweet/tayl0r team. I think tweet would be more likely to latch on to this post if she'd been lowkey ignoring what tal0r was doing on previous page which would match an s/s dynamic. Or tayl0r is town and she was just trying to shade both of us.

also I don't get why she thinks she's evaluating the game when all I see from the last half if her iso is that she wants to only talk about me, I don't think any other slot has done this little reevaluation of the gamestate. If she thinks she is actively commenting on more of the game than she is she could have cogdis due to deleting posts because she was happy with gamestate

Krazy · Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:30 am

Tayl0r why do you have tweet as hard town?

Krazy · Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:51 am

Wait, but in this setup wouldn't that mean you're scum?

Krazy · Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:37 pm

Yeah but looking at your progression you kinda were late to the wagon. In any case that whole string of logic is also precisely why chara is likely to try to distance day 1

In post 230, Morning Tweet wrote:i have a positive read on Chara/catboi/Prism and probably a slight one on Puppy/Tanner. Puppy moreso than Tanner. Also maybe redtea. So like catboi>Chara>Prism>Puppy>Tanner>redtea

Undecided so far on {Hectic, Lavender, Pooky, taylor, and Elements}

HEAL: catboi
HURT: Elements

I have no idea how Elements got Puppy changing his tune from 193. also sheeping Chara

Spoiler: this post span
In post 190, Hectic wrote:
makes me sad but i know when i'm beat, 4 SPARES is a no go
any of ya gonna work out the numbers for 1 to 3 SPARES?

anyway, Prism town because he did the math and was accurate before catboi revealed his spreadsheets
he made the effort but showed no working or proof to try and make it look impressive or get any towncred from it

i believe catboi when he says he wouldn’t reveal the EV working if he was mafia
only because he decided to out his info right after I made a huge case on 4 SPARES, where there was some uncertainty where town would go, and it wasn’t just guaranteed to be genocide anyway

In post 191, Elements wrote:mechanically 4 spares is sub-optimal but if we don't spare we're basically just playing normal mafia

In post 192, Hectic wrote:
yeah bud, that's honestly my main issue
hopefully we can make a 1-3 SPARE route work if the EV for that is acceptable

In post 193, CantHateAPuppy wrote:hectic who would you spare right now

In post 194, Elements wrote:
In post 193, CantHateAPuppy wrote:hectic who would you spare right now
changing your tune a bit

Elements should have known the context for puppys post, he was just talking to Hectic about it 2 posts above it! I am curious as to what the intent of pointing this out really was

In post 417, Morning Tweet wrote:Would probably stress over the spares a lot harder though because then scumChara poses a threat and I usually have at least one TR wrong

I think I know how to evaluate Lavender down the line probably and there is little info to be gained if we misfight them

Elements had like 1 or 2 posts that gave me pause about him.

Pooky I think is engaging in a heavily losing strategy if he's scum

VOTE: Taylor

In post 418, Morning Tweet wrote:HURT: Taylor

I mean you do try to derail onto Tayl0r, which still doesn't even guarantee Tayl0r is town, but in any case it's not like you were hard onto Elements consistently throughout the day.

By the time you return to beeboy he already had three solid votes on him so... yeah sorry I don't see how bussing a dead slot makes you town

Like, it's interesting that you're willing to reevaluate a scum slot (beeboy) throughout day 1 but seem to have 0 interest in reevaluating a town slot (me) on day 2

Krazy · Post Post #1913 (isolation #45) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:20 pm

who's your scumbuddy then? :3

Krazy · Post Post #1917 (isolation #46) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:08 pm

Wait what is the deadline now then?

Krazy · Post Post #1926 (isolation #47) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:57 pm

So to be clear Tweet, you would join me with Prism on Tayl0r but you would not join Prism with me on Tanner?

Krazy · Post Post #1931 (isolation #48) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:06 pm

This exchange kinda makes me want Tweet like, a lot more lol

Prism there's no way I'm selling you on Tweet today?

Krazy · Post Post #1935 (isolation #49) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:12 pm

Puppy you should townread me

Krazy · Post Post #1943 (isolation #50) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:33 pm

In post 1941, Morning Tweet wrote:really now? (¬ω¬)

Do you have an explanation for Hectic locktowning me yet?

these two things go hand in hand. Your use of Hectic's read to shield yourself seems kinda scummy tbh

Krazy · Post Post #1944 (isolation #51) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:36 pm

In post 1942, CantHateAPuppy wrote:y

because if you can find town in me then this game will get a lot easier for you, I think

also like, hectic was saying he might reevaluate based on prism's meta but then he... didn't

and tweet seems to want me bad but her reasons are kinda underdeveloped considering the depth of her tunnel

so idk, I think the pushes on me and the gamestate should spew me town, there's been good explanations of why my slot is town, pooky has observed that the NKA does not point to me, so between meta/gamestate/NKA the arguments all point to me town

So I think if you're town, you need to step up here and help guide this town off me rather than keeping me in your pool. Otherwise why really are you keeping me in your pool?

Krazy · Post Post #1949 (isolation #52) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:48 pm

In post 1829, Hectic wrote:
In post 1827, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:@hectic what do you think about the catboi NK not really making sense if redtea is scum? Catboi was one of the few people who was town-slotting red-tea hard - I don't see why the NK falls here when there are so many better townread players here..
Oh, really? I'd completely overlooked that.

Guess I need to do more research tomorrow.

actually it was the NKA not the meta but this is the post I was thinking about -- it feels like Hectic was like, yeah need to look into that, and then the next day forgot he made this post and returned to TunnelVision[TM]

Krazy · Post Post #1950 (isolation #53) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:49 pm

In post 1946, Morning Tweet wrote:i feel like you're starting with the conclusion of me being scum more than you're trying to read me in good faith.

Hectic has never falsely townread me -- wouldn't you say that's a valid defense?

lol no

I'm not familiar with sample size you're talking about but even then I've played enough with Hectic to not pretend like he has a 100% readrate. His reads are definitely above rand but I wouldn't take them just on faith especially when I don't even know his alignment 100%

Krazy · Post Post #1954 (isolation #54) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:07 pm

Yeah the Hectic/Tweet interactions are definitely weird. My inclination would be that Hectic is just wrong and Tweet is using him to shield but there's room for error in that take

Krazy · Post Post #1961 (isolation #55) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:01 pm

In post 1958, Prism wrote:I'm not too inclined to go read a game from scratch but your [Morning's] reads/interactions this game seem to have significantly more depth to them here than in the first scumgame of yours I found, Mini Normal 2132. Simultaneously it seems like Hectic wrongly townread you all game so I really can't say this sparks a new personal confidence in him.

That's really interesting. Do you think it's more likely Hectic is using his previous experiences to fake an overconfident read on MT rather than him maybe just being wrong again?

Krazy · Post Post #1969 (isolation #56) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:15 pm

so your inclination is to fight lavendar, taylor? is she your top pick at this point?

Krazy · Post Post #1971 (isolation #57) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:19 pm

Well it's good to have you around anyway Prism, I really appreciate your input :3

Krazy · Post Post #1973 (isolation #58) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:23 pm

how much have you played with scum hectic and scum mt?

Krazy · Post Post #2006 (isolation #59) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:09 pm

In post 1962, Tayl0r Swift wrote:nah hectic and MT are both town

could you expand on this? what's your level of confidence in hectic town?

Krazy · Post Post #2009 (isolation #60) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:12 pm

Prism is like billboard town. The way she moves between different types of analysis I think is very unlikely to come from scum. If you're town tayl0r then I think you more need to help us solve outside your 1v1 rather than push back on Prism

Krazy · Post Post #2011 (isolation #61) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:13 pm

Oh Prism do you have a pronoun? I've been doing she off avi but it seems Pooky is doing he and now I'm unsure

Krazy · Post Post #2017 (isolation #62) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:19 pm

I kinda feel like I can vibe with that. In worlds of Hectic scum, I do feel like he would have had to have improved his scumgame quite a bit to be scum this game, even if there are some things about his approach to my slot that give me pause. I think there's merit in Prism pushing there because he's good enough to be cautious, but I'm not sold on Hectic scum.

Actually thinking out loud who has big problems with a Lavendar/Tanner solve? I feel like for Prism and Tayl0r if they got out of their 1v1 then that's basically what they'd agree on?

Bear in mind I don't have a scumread really on Lavendar and I'm not 100% on Tayl0r town but I feel like that would be relatively close to a consensus solve in a world of town!Tayl0r ?

Krazy · Post Post #2018 (isolation #63) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:20 pm

In a Lavender/Tanner world, then Lavender would be the Chara I guess? Since in a world of Lavender scum she's basically just riding out an anti-spew strategy knowing she flips and isn't really trying to position herself to endgame?

Krazy · Post Post #2019 (isolation #64) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:28 pm

lol I wonder if I just broke this game, could it really just be TLav?

Krazy · Post Post #2021 (isolation #65) » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:59 pm

Tanner/Lavender

Krazy · Post Post #2029 (isolation #66) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:00 am

Why are you shading obvtown? You're actually concerning me Hectic lol

Krazy · Post Post #2033 (isolation #67) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:09 am

Just detach the little guy from your head and tell him to keep you up to date

Krazy · Post Post #2035 (isolation #68) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:30 am

Awww he's a widdle cutie pie yes he is :3

Krazy · Post Post #2042 (isolation #69) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:26 am

Which attempts to talk have I ignored? I would never ignore you Tantisi!

I am passing out at this particular moment but let me know what I missed and I'll get to it in the morn

Krazy · Post Post #2131 (isolation #70) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:29 pm

In post 2117, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:alright Noir finally ended so we can talk about taylor's ISO there

link here:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=1875

I haven't read it yet so I will be doing some cross-game analysis feel free to come up with your own conclusions about play comparison.

Given I have definitely been in games where someone grabs one recent game and then use it to meta-case me I'm a bit cautious here, but I guess it's worth asking a few questions

Just from the getgo, it seems that in that game you were more than happy to discuss the merits and values of a vig, whereas in this game you were very apathetic about mech talk in the early game

after that I glance at the approach to penguinbuddy:

Spoiler:

and it looks like a lot of soft distancing

we can compare that to approach to ele/bee here:

Spoiler:

In post 497, Tayl0r Swift wrote:is elements normally this quiet as town?

In post 857, Tayl0r Swift wrote:hectic - probably town. stop being a goof though, and while i agree that deciding lavender is town rather than scum is passing on an opportunity for opportunism, it feels like a weak read
elements - beeboy hasnt really done anything to make me townread that slot (yet)
chara - am i the only one thinking chara might be scum here? chara let themself be talked into scumreading me pretty easily, and seems to float around the popular opinions a lot but never do much scumhunting
prism - prolly just town
pooky - definitely town
catboi - i still have misgivings
morning - those ears could never be scum
lavender - needs more content, in PoE
redtea - i dont remember any posts from this slot. i guess at some point i should read the iso but its not a good sign if they arent doing anything worth remembering. could just be the awolness that made me forget
tanner - prolly just town
puppy - hasnt really done much townie recently, but was a townread earlier

so that makes my PoE chara, lavender, redtea, puppy. out of those i want to HURT: chara

In post 1293, Tayl0r Swift wrote:
In post 1290, Prism wrote:Taylor, do you still feel like Chara is scum? Me/Pooky both seem to agree that their posts on page 5 and their read on Elements in 160 are good.

I think some of their midgame wasn't very notable but when it comes to reads, the two they've really seemed to press are 1) Elements, who has now flipped scum 2) redtea, whose slot is now being replaced a second time after some very lackluster posts by Sujimichi
i mean sujimuchi is probably more likely to be scum. i have kinda weakened my scumread on chara. i do think theres prolly a deepwolf somewhere, but im thinking tanner is more likely scum than chara now.

In post 869, Tayl0r Swift wrote:im down for a beeboy wagon

In post 923, Tayl0r Swift wrote:
In post 830, beeboy wrote:Prism's read list had a set of takes that I think come from town.
His read on MT although consistent of him saying a bunch of MT traits and calling them scum indicative.
I also really liked that read in particular.

To some degree I want to town read MT for Hectic's "Top secret meta read", since good players tend to not say that without a real reason to do so.
But I also think I could probably read her on my own since I am fairly experienced playing with her, and she did perceive herself to be scum in one game even if she was town and could have thought it was multiball.

I originally wanted to question Hectic because I never heard of this tell before!!! But the 3 games that the 3 of us touched were 2 games modded by hectic and 1 modded by MT.
For the amount I've played with both Hectic and MT I am genuinely suprised this is the first time the 3 of us have played together. I don't want to count the dance game since it was an anon game.
i read beeboy's iso to decide whether it was a worthwhile wagon, but this is the only post with AI content (except the post advocating spares, which is scummy and was done twice in two different ways: spare at least one, and the spare route is good), and the AI content here is meh. dunno if its just because of catchup or what. beeboy needs more content but im not ready to lunch there yet.

There are some differences, the biggest maybe being 923 which is a more discernible bus

We can compare also to his approach to the Genius slot which was the earlier lynched scumbuddy

Spoiler:

and I see very little interesting interactions here at all

So it seems like Tayl0r's go-to approach here is to basically soft-distance buddies while playing nominally a bit wolfy, she doesn't vote either buddy in that game. So there's some minor differences but I can see this at least being in tayl0r's scumrange and I'm not seeing things here that would make her hard town, but I guess it's not immediately jumping out at me without more familiarity with Noir what Pooky is seeing as strongly scum-indicative. What is boosting your confidence in particular here Pook?

Krazy · Post Post #2159 (isolation #71) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:37 pm

I feel like you two need hugs tbh

Krazy · Post Post #2162 (isolation #72) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:39 pm

Having never played the game I have no knowledge of any ironic subtext but I'm going with this one:

Spoiler:

Krazy · Post Post #2189 (isolation #73) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:40 pm

VOTE: Lavender

Krazy · Post Post #2190 (isolation #74) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:40 pm

Krazy · Post Post #2192 (isolation #75) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:41 pm

If only I actually was chara or that was a real vote

Krazy · Post Post #2193 (isolation #76) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:42 pm

Really though we should probably keep Lavender at L2. I think the consensus is this slot has like... very little actual AI content over this being a real scumcase and we should let her give some reads after the weekend which seems to be a v/la time for her or something

Krazy · Post Post #2195 (isolation #77) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:48 pm

anything for you batgirl <3

Krazy · Post Post #2197 (isolation #78) » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:06 pm

I think the slot has decent equity but I'm not like dead certain and if possible I'd like to hear what she has to say

Her last developed list was 735 which is over 1000 posts ago now

Krazy · Post Post #2200 (isolation #79) » Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:09 am

I do like you

Why do you think those games are bad meta for you?

Krazy · Post Post #2201 (isolation #80) » Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:15 am

How many people just really want this day to end? I still feel like I just replaced in so I'm like not in a rush at all but I do appreciate that long days can be really demoralizing

Krazy · Post Post #2203 (isolation #81) » Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:59 am

In post 2202, Tanner wrote:though my question still stands, i do feel like i'm being more lurky/reactive this game than town!me usually is, and you described my usual townplay as that iirc, so uhh... what gives?

When I replaced in, you were talking about the necessity of lynching "lower" slots, dropping lists, and pushing dog, a read you seem to have kinda almost entirely lost interest in?

Like coming in on 57/58, that would not give me the impression of a lurky reactive player, my first impression of those pages was that you were one of the more active players. You have dropped off in the last thirty pages or so but you haven't given any sort of sense of apathy in the same ballpark as post-apoc for sure.

Since then you keep listing me in the bottom three pool but at this point I honestly can't remember why you even put me there

and I do remember you being capable of having stronger reads, I'm just trying to remember the games you were in that gave me that impression and I'd have to look back at our shared games

but yeah, maybe your self-conception of your play this game is thrown of by my impression based more on where I entered the game and what I read when I entered. But every time you have posted I've kinda been like, "huh yeah tanner seems like scum" -- like even right now your questions seem kinda scummy lol. Maybe the reason I wasn't updating my meta discussion of my read on you was because I wanted to see how you engaged with the evolving conversation and real time interaction is generally better than meta anyway?

Krazy · Post Post #2204 (isolation #82) » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:06 am

I actually feel pretty good about this

who has been blocking this? I think I'm ready to fite someone to fight Tanner

I will bring with me the power of meeeeemes!

Krazy · Post Post #2208 (isolation #83) » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:32 am

doggo remind me of your town tanner reasons again plz

Krazy · Post Post #2214 (isolation #84) » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:03 am

In post 2210, CantHateAPuppy wrote:i townread tanner because he is pushing stubbornly up in situations that would be easier for town to shirk back from. he's still trying to push a case on me (?) when i'm obvtown (iso my votes on the elements scum wagon from yesterday). is that a "good reason" for you?

I seem to recall responding to those points and already explained why I don't find them compelling

Krazy · Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:01 pm

In post 1403, Tanner wrote:i don't think i have anything specific i want you to look at because the game is kinda weird right now, in a sense that i don't think we can procceed in a huge manner without flipping a "lower" slot first and seeing whether that gives us victory or a deepwolf not-chara flips and we need to start over. again, would be lovely to big brain snipe the deepwolf today if they exist, but i'm kinda thinking that's unrealistic.

One of my concerns with tanner involves the push to "lower slots" which which admittedly does relatively match how a lot of the game is viewing the gamestate and the current lavendar push which reflects that a lot of town have similar feelings to this, but it bugs me when I see a list like this:

In post 1445, Tanner wrote:i'm kinda shoving all of hectic/prism/morning tweet/chara/pooky as "this is most likely town, and even if it's not we're not flipping them today unless something mindblowing happens, so moving on" (yeah, i get it's funny saying that while watching the prism-chara thing brewing, but hey)

which leaves
suji - at the start of day two i pointed out that some of their connections with elements aren't... great, and i've talked about my read progression on redtea at the bottom of 1349. i have never played with suji, but from what i've seen of their play around the site, they're usually not that invested as scum and they often flake? and this game is kinda similar to their scumplay? the issue of "who are they partnered with?" is the only thing bothering me.

lavender - do we need another chapter of tanner ranting about lavender? i kinda wish they were at least, i dunno, trying to interact with me. actually kinda wanna hear what hectic thinks of this slot now. @hectic pls help.

puppy - we also don't need another chapter of this. also i kinda wanna talk to them on the things i brought up recently. will give an update at some point maybe.

taylor - i don't know. they're like. meh. i pretty much don't remember anything they've done.

Aside from puppy, the scum pool here all feel like they're coming from the position of "lynchbait" rather than scum, and I've felt like Tanner has been more interested in maintaining the "lynchbait" pool than in solving. I also feel like he didn't really engage with the rebuttals to my slot being scum presented by Prism and Pooky but still keeps pushing me into the lower pool anyway which is something that reminds me of how someone like Elsa Jay responded to my rep in in the shakespeare boon game

On the connections, a big part of his argument is:

In post 1544, Tanner wrote:them pretty much disappearing the last 3-4 days of day one, where the weird lack of resistance of the scumwagon could be explained by an afk buddy

and this just feels like a weird and kinda scummy thought process. I generally find "resistance" based arguments about wagons to be highly suspect. If scum bussed, they probably wanted towncred. If scum didn't bus, yeah redtea could be scum, but I just didn't like this thought process or the formulation of this evidence. Like saying "I think scum would be reacting this way to this wagon" is just very often wrong and I more often see scum faking speculation about resistance than town actually using it, but maybe that's just my subjective take

Selective evidence gathering also bothers me in 938 since "scum killed this person for this post" is something scum is very likely to argue to screw with NKA. I feel like I've written posts exactly like 938 as scum, particularly in Titus v. Alisae most recently, and seeing posts I feel like I would write as scum from Tanner bother me

Other people have also formulated reasons why Tanner just seems out of sync even though they don't really conclude he's scum off it:

In post 1571, Prism wrote:I really am struggling to see 1084-1092 scum in the same way you are. Sparing isn't happening, scumPuppy knows it, it's only going to draw attention, and the chance of them personally getting spared even if successful is zero. That doesn't mean they're town for it, but it is plausible as town, so the scumread is really tenuous here to me...The piece Puppy seems to be missing is that 2 correct spares isn't much better for us than 2 misfights, if it even is at all (I again don't want to do math). Without that, their reasoning lines up.

The person they immediately push to spare in 1298 is Chara for the push on Elements. This stuck out to me because I think Hectic was much more of a driving force there-Chara opened it with a vote for scumpings but Hectic really carried that through as I continued to press him to justify it-but is consistent with their 1090, where they don't seem to remember Hectic shoving. Maybe they're being willfully blind as scum, but this process seems really plausible to me.

From Puppy's perspective, this seems to be the case: Sparing might be slightly worse mathematically, but bussing Day 1 is so stupid that no one would do it. We've got such a good chance of getting two good spares that we should take it. I remember Chara as the person who really pushed that vote, so that's my first spare vote for sure.

You (Tanner) challenge the assumption that no one would bus Day 1, but I really see why someone would assume that. Even I, who has bussed their way to mathematically suboptimal extremes, am tempted to believe the same.

I feel like I agree with Prism on basically everything here, and from this I more wonder why Tanner doesn't end up lower in Prism's list since the weird assumptions Tanner is making (scum don't bus day 1?) to me seem scummy

Tanner also complains that in posts like 1644 I remark that he's saying scummy stuff but he doesn't really engage me on it so let me expand:

In post 1644, Tanner wrote:so uhh what was the deal with 1494?

this bothers me because it feels like testing the water on my Hectic townread without really pushing back on it directly. like if tanner is scum then me townblocking with Hectic would probably be game-losing if we are t/t so this reads like a panicked scum reaction

In post 1644, Tanner wrote:f puppy's not scum, then from my pov it's either some combination of lavender/krazy/taylor or something's very wrong

this just feels like a scummy rule of 3 list and since I'm in it that would point to TLav or TanTaylor; he continues more in this pool as the day goes on without really doing anything that would spew lavender or taylor in particular imo. The way he's treating his pool right now feels very cautious

In slightly more recent posts:

In post 2044, Tanner wrote:your meta on me is just... post-apoc and flying scumsman, right? those two are probably the worst games to meta me from

I admit that my comments about his alignment earlier did play into a baseline intuitive sense that "datisi feels diff this game" but I feel like arguing about my ability to meta-evaluate him is scummy regardless of whether my meta read is actually good or not. I feel like I've made this argument often as scum, where I argue someone can't meta-read me particularly if I feel like they *shouldn't* have been able to meta read me or the meta read is garbage but 'right for the wrong reasons'. I think the reason I see this as more scummy is because as town I would have more confidence people will just *find town in me* because it's there whereas as scum I would feel a bigger need to pushback on the kinda weak gut-take meta evaluation

In post 2213, Tanner wrote:either you're scum trying to set basis for my execution the next day, or you're town and wrong and tunnelled.

I also felt like this was kinda out of left field. I do not feel at *all* tunneled on Tanner. I did park my vote on him but he's been under almost no other pressure and there's been a lot more "why don't you hammer lavendar" than anything else. Like I can't just always move my vote when moving my vote to the next most logical spot risks a chara quickhammer if we're wrong. This feels a lot more like a justification to keep me in his pool rather than a towny reaction

I do think that Tanner is the slot I can actually see scum in much more so than Lavender who I feel more just 'fits every team because she hasn't really done anything'

Krazy · Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:02 pm

To be clear I love datisi and I absolutely do not want to demoralize him out of this game in a world where he's town, but I also feel like it was time my concerns with that slot were a lot clearer since I do think he's the better fight over lavender right now, and I think my feelings on that are going to stay the same regardless of his ~quick break~ from the game

Krazy · Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:56 pm

Lavender chan could you give us a full list as best you can? Have any of your reads changed this dayphase?

/

Unrelated but since it came up, here's the link for the apocalypse upick game https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go that we were discussing whether it was good/bad as a meta checkpoint for tanner/dats

Krazy · Post Post #2225 (isolation #88) » Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:24 pm

and the scumsman game -- https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I was trying to remember what even happened in that mess. I do think I successfully solved the datisi hydra for town in that game although I think that might have been more due to ausuka, still I think my readrate on datisi might be above rand at least.

Krazy · Post Post #2232 (isolation #89) » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:50 pm

In post 2230, Hectic wrote:Weren't you town in that? Was I so deep pocketed that I didn't even realise post game that you were scum??

I got it confused with Alisae vs. Pine, my bad

Krazy · Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:56 pm

Hmm, maybe he's the cop? :3

Krazy · Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:52 am

You don't need to rebut every point tannychan, if you are town you simply must let the town ooze forth from your very being :3

Krazy · Post Post #2253 (isolation #92) » Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:15 pm

In post 2243, Tanner wrote:krazy i'm gonna assume you're not making fun of me in 2240 because it's seriously killing my morale if you are

I would never make fun of you Tanner

Krazy · Post Post #2255 (isolation #93) » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:44 pm

doggo what's your view on tayl0r?

Krazy · Post Post #2260 (isolation #94) » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:39 pm

In post 2256, Lavender wrote:MTweet:
Their reasoning for voting me is a tad iffy but not unbelievable.
To be quite honest I don’t have a good understanding of them well enough.
I mean I don’t really understand anyone else that well, but MTweet is at the top of the list!

I’ve spent 10 minutes reading their ISO and coming up with
Nothing substantial.
They feel like Basic Baby Town, what that means is what I said.
Is this a good thing?
Yesn’t

I have no idea what any of this means but I'm for it

Anyway, if I'm following your reads correctly, you're leaning toward fighting tayl0r over tanner?

Krazy · Post Post #2261 (isolation #95) » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:40 pm

I ship Hec/ism

Or maybe Pr/ectic?

Krazy · Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:34 pm

For the record, I would be perfectly happy to flop your ears

Krazy · Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:17 am

In post 2266, Prism wrote:This is really minor Krazy but questioning you about your Hectic progression seems to make sense, as 1561 appears to imply that some parts of Hectic's game are scummy.

Actually you might be right, that point might have been more confusion

Krazy · Post Post #2324 (isolation #98) » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:39 pm

HEAL: Prism

This is not a serious proposal and I doubt it would be a correct mechanical choice, just keeping track of where my head's at right now

Krazy · Post Post #2327 (isolation #99) » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:43 pm

In post 2325, Hectic wrote:HEAL: Lavender

damn this is an rc style move lol

Krazy · Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:46 pm

VOTE: lavendar

obligatory

Krazy · Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:17 pm

Seriously though that Lavender heal is probably the least townie thing you've done this game though

Krazy · Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:42 pm

In post 2356, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:we're gonna look so dumb when whoever is chara flips chara

chara is definitely one out of Hectic, Chara, Prism, Pooky, Batgrrl, Swifty, Lav-chan, Tanner, or Doggo.

I think we can all agree -- I called it! :3

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:29 pm

Actually looking at the triangle thing again I feel like I'm somehow more confused on what the difference between lavendar and pooky would be. Is lavendar 'unsure/null' while pooky is 'confident nullish leantown'?

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:32 pm

I guess pushing toward top is 'number of worlds where they can be scum' so not related to 'is scum or town' but more 'could be town or scum'. I guess I'm making sense of it kinda I judt am not sure what I'm getting out of it is what is meant to be conveyed

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:59 pm

oh we have under two days

hmmm

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:53 pm

Tayl0r is best girl over tanner pooky?

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:31 pm

VOTE: tayl0r

were you scum?

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:58 pm

the thing about hectic is he flipped from pushing me a good chunk of the day to voting with me on tanner
and on that same point, if hectic is town and tanner is scum then lynching hectic would have a very negative effect on gamestate... although I suppose a related argument could be made in defense of tanner though

still, putting aside the tonal things I saw earlier that are harder to quantify, why does hectic as scum spend so much of the day attacking my slot's credibility only to later switch to being one of the only people willing to build a wagon with me? like did he think the tanner wagon was just dead so he could safely votepark or what's the scum motivation there?

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:58 pm

In post 2492, Tayl0r Swift wrote:another reason hectic is probably scum is suddenly the game makes sense if hectic is scum. i dont feel lost anymore.

also curious on an expansion on this

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:16 pm

In post 1458, Hectic wrote:Now that Krazy is here I can safely VOTE: Conspiracy

Very happy to see you back though.

In post 1460, Hectic wrote:Krazy, you should probably look at how the Ele/beeboy wagon went down towards end of day 1. A lot of discussion has revolved around the lack of a counterwagon, and why wouldn't scum bus etc. Might be useful to just see how everyone ended up voting there.

I'm trying to remember why I thought Hectic was obvtown for this. Basically I feel like my slot was a pretty strong consensus push and although Hectic was also pushing me, he also seemed kinda laid back and jokey with me on entrance and still wanted content from me

I guess the argument for scum hectic here is that scum want the discussion still built around counter-wagons and he still can't come off as tunneled on me as he wants me lynched or whatever (at this point even if he gives up later)

I guess there's a world where hectic would see me enter the game and take a moment, as scum, to evaluate whether he needs to back off and find a new wagon and so maybe he wasn't even sure he was still going to keep pushing me at this point

still, the town!hectic explanation is that he simply saw me enter the game and was willing to engage with me a bit more directly than the status quo necessitated I guess

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:23 pm

In post 2333, Hectic wrote:
In post 2332, Krazy wrote:Seriously though that Lavender heal is probably the least townie thing you've done this game though
How lol
It's a joke heal vote

just wondering but did everyone else get why healing lavender was a joke and I just missed it?

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:27 pm

In post 2504, Prism wrote:Taylor/Chara again?

you're open to moving off?

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:28 pm

pooky you're still hard on town hectic ya?

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:31 pm

In post 2508, Prism wrote:
In post 2506, Krazy wrote:you're open to moving off?
? I'm currently on Taylor.

for some reason after the last page I thought you were on hectic, I think my jacked up sleep schedule is actually making me delusional LOL

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:33 pm

lol wow that image is crazy

Krazy · Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:39 pm

In post 2518, Prism wrote:also no you're krazy hue

:3

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:03 pm

In post 2630, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:dadddytisi this is not how this works

oh I see how it is so pooky's allowed to call you daddytisi

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:04 pm

In post 2639, Tanner wrote:i feel very dumb now nevermind

i have never heard of that word before, i thought it was some sorta buttery candy in a cup >_>

my english is bad <_<

makes sense why in the ad of this game she's eating flowers >_<

it's okay, most dudes don't really know flower names or associations

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:09 pm

In post 2599, Hectic wrote:Probably be more accurate to say this:

Tanner, Lavender
Launchy, Pooky

Krazy

Krazy's slot was my only scumread and now he's not a thing. The rest aren't scumleans even and I see more town than scum there - this is the problem.

somehow this explanation makes me more confused about your read rather than less confused

I also feel like way more confused about your pooky read than I was before, you had him as a sus but said he had 'soulpocketed you' that doesn't really convey the sense he's in your... bottom 2? (I'd say 3 but again, confusion)

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:12 pm

Nonsense, this is a Buttercup

Spoiler:

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:18 pm

why are replace outs scummy though? Again, hasn't the idea that replace outs for those players specifically being SI been refuted? I kinda thought you were past that so it's kinda bugging me you going back to it even if you're not pushing a case on it as far as I can tell

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:40 pm

In post 2379, Tanner wrote:
In post 2331, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
Spoiler:

I request Datisi/Tanner do one of these for this game. It is an invaluable scumhunting tool.
it is so ironic you say this while quoting the one triangle i ever made where all scum were in the "town" portion

anyway here is triangle

i will now reply what i need to reply to

if there's any questions, shoot

(also in the meantime, how do i go from "i don't see scum in this" to "regular wolf" for you, pooky?)

also prism if you're scum, there's gonna be tears post-game, just saying

tanner is this still where you're at irt Hectic?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:46 pm

In post 2660, Tanner wrote:at least not as not-chara?

so many negatives

have you eliminated hectic as chara?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:00 pm

In post 2597, CantHateAPuppy wrote:
In post 2595, Hectic wrote:My sus pool ftr is [Launchy, Pooky, Krazy] right now. I just don't feel confident about any one read to case or push it.

The tier above that is probably [Tanner, Lavender].
pooky? tanner? i just feel like we're playing two different games. if i could resolve this into a solid scumread or a solid townread, i would feel a lot better about you and the game in general

what did you think about Hectic's response to 2597 puppy? also do you have any feelings or thoughts about him having you and pooky as his bottom tier?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:11 pm

prism

pooky

tayl0r

Review: [tweet/chara/puppy/Heckboy/lavender]

tanner

right now processing what I think of tanner's soft defense of hecboy and some other things

but right now the hectic push is literally all my top town so that's... something

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:14 pm

what?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:15 pm

In post 2660, Tanner wrote:i'm reading prism's points on why hectic is scummy and like "this probably makes sense, prism knows what they're talking about"

hectic's push on me felt like scum knowing the pool is tight and they need to have some nice progressions so they're setting me up for a later day - the counterpoint to this is that i've thought this same thing about all of hectic/krazy/puppy/maybe ever taylor i don't remember

but hectic's points on why he doesn't hardbus there? i dunno? it vibes? at least not as not-chara?

i don't think i want to vote for hectic today?

it's unfair to call this a soft defense because why?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:15 pm

In post 2692, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:yesss towntisi finally hardtowntelling

<3

ooh go on!

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:30 pm

ok what's the easy solve then?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:34 pm

you're really using suji for your read of my slot more than me?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:42 pm

In post 2716, Prism wrote:Okay this makes more sense now

what do you mean? I don't see the thought you just connected

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:45 pm

HURT: Hectic

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:50 pm

I feel like if we're in "oh god just end the day" mode then hectic is the better flip to tayl0r

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:54 pm

In post 2739, Tanner wrote:krazy, why is taylor your 3rd top town? and like what's suddenly with hectic being scum? i tried to ctrl+f those in your iso but it's 3am, help me out

Tayl0r's posts last night felt pretty town to me honestly, not enough to lock but I *remember* what she was doing, the solving around Hectic slot made sense

I don't really think Hectic is scum, I think Hectic's flip is better for gamesolving. All of my top town were on Hectic, whereas the slots on Tayl0r I'm not as confident in. Hectic also has my second top town in his bottom 2.

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:58 pm

In post 2741, Hectic wrote:Krazy is probably the regular wolf who would much rather have me dead than Lav/Tayl0r now since he knows I still scumread his slot.

There's barely any progression there.

So you do scumread me and I'm not just "something else"?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:59 pm

In post 2747, Prism wrote:I disagree that Hectic is a better gamesolve flip than Taylor. Taylor flipping town still puts us in a pretty good position. We know there's deepwolves about.

Hectic flipping town is disastrous and leaves Tayl0r still unresolved along with literally every other lurker slot. Almost every hardtown is also on that except MT so there's not even a good deepwolf indicator.

I don't see what useful information tayl0r flipping town tells us about the game

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:04 pm

In post 2757, Prism wrote:??? that slot is literally one of the hardest to solve on its own+you immediately know that bussing happened day 1

idk, I don't think the "The game makes more sense if it's Hectic" line is going to come from scum unless it also had a big detailed explanation, the elegance there of feeling like the game was easier to solve but not being able to fully articulate it actually felt more town to me

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:05 pm

In post 2762, Prism wrote:I do want Tayl0r. I think if Hectic flips Chara overnight we're still in a fine position.

Vote for who you think is scum at the end of the day, though. I'm not the town dictator.

that's a fine strat when we're not at 12 hours left and I have 0 momentum on Tanner

if I'm compromising, I'm compromising on Hectic over Tayl0r

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:08 pm

In post 2771, Prism wrote:Krazy's lines actually really bother me here in that learning more from Hectic-flip is complete hogwash, like I want to hear that argument fleshed out because that is the single biggest reason I refuse to vote the dude

I don't understand what this question is asking

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:09 pm

In post 2770, Hectic wrote:Krazy is scummmm voting me out after initially saying I was IC levels of obvtown and then saying he still liked me as town repeatedly, and then voting me because "info" only after I clarified that his slot was still at the bottom of my reaslist, and that I'm just not pushing him today because he isn't ChAra.

I am faced with two potential compromises
one of those compromises is on the player that has pushed me as scum the entire day
the other is on the player that was one of the first to warm up and work with me

if both are town, which is a possibility, it's still not hard to decide which one to compromise on

the town response would have been to come back and try to push tanner with me again, you trying to spin a compromise as scummy is not a good look

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:12 pm

In post 2775, Prism wrote:
In post 2773, Krazy wrote:I don't understand what this question is asking
How does a Hectic townflip help solve the game more than a Taylor townflip?

Please explain this thought process for how flipping Hectic gives us more info

a hectic redflip would be very close to green-clearning for tayl0r

a hectic greenflip makes the townblock of [prism, pooky] reevaluate the game

a tayl0r redflip doesn't really clear hectic

a tayl0r greenflip makes the nullblock of [tweet, chara] reevaluate the game

one of those scenarios is much better than the other

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:13 pm

In post 2778, Hectic wrote:Why would I try and push Tanner with you again?

Lavender is also a viable option you seem to be conveniently forgetting, Krazy. Why aren't you willing to compromise there?

lavender isn't who was being discussed when pooky just asked "are we doing this" and prism changed hurts so why are you suddenly unable to understand the gamestate?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:19 pm

In post 2783, Prism wrote:P-edit: ????????? if me/pooky are the only ones reevaluating the game on tayl0r-townflip something is wrong, drastic oversimplification

I mean in terms of vote movement as an indication of thought process, those would be the bigger shifts

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:23 pm

In post 2784, Hectic wrote:I think there's still 2 or 3 votes on Lav so she's a lot more viable if you vote her. You're not forced into Tayl0r/Hectic.

I suppose there's a world in Tanner/lav where Tanner soft distances from Lav by voteparking her but I'm not sure that's a world that actually exists

this is probably just a consequence of having played more video mafia in the last six months than forum mafia but I've started leaning very heavily toward more straightforward gamestate play

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:24 pm

In post 2794, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:HECTIC MY LOVE DO YOU STILL WANT TO LAUNCH KRAZY

if your hectic vote was a troll then I'm going to be angry in a way that would break site rules lol

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:26 pm

Pooky you're not a skitter alt right?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:29 pm

prism is your main problem with hectic wagon that tayl0r is on it?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:30 pm

In post 2815, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:and if you ever read 960 its literally just 200 pages of me begging her not to kill me

that sounds right

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:37 pm

what's your read of tanner right now hectic?

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:42 pm

In post 2325, Hectic wrote:HEAL: Lavender

In post 2784, Hectic wrote:I think there's still 2 or 3 votes on Lav so she's a lot more viable if you vote her. You're not forced into Tayl0r/Hectic.

I'm a lot more curious about what the joke was in 2325 now

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:48 pm

Aww. Here's a song that represents our friendship Hecboi :3

Spoiler:

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:02 pm

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:19 pm

In post 2861, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:this game is wild

what if we all got town pms and Isis is just messing with us

I could see a game mode where the mafia # is rand[0-3] and town has to actually decide if there's mafia in the game or not

wait, that's just conspiracy at that point isn't it lol

I knew there was a reason I liked conspiracy

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:22 pm

HEAL: Hectic

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:23 pm

HURT: no one

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:05 pm

Well we've eliminated [Tweet Chara + Swift town] I guess

not sure who else has been online

Krazy · Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:16 pm

shhh you ruined it

Krazy · Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:54 pm

In post 3101, Hectic wrote:Yes, that's right. The Tanner case was infact a link to a Chara avatar. Still don't know how Krazy got away with that.

Hectic town lol

I don't think scum hectic can make me laugh this much

Krazy · Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:57 pm

In post 3078, Chara wrote:i feel so monumentally useless it's kind of amazing.
and yet somehow still very confident in Tweet being town. hubris?

I remember thinking eod made you likely town but this is more a note to explain that thought tomorrow when I'm sober than anything else

Krazy · Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:01 pm

Tanner is probably my fight still

Krazy · Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:50 pm

In post 3131, Tanner wrote:
In post 3100, Hectic wrote:Krazy is probably town because he's exceptionally adept with mechanics.
krazy butchered this game's mechanics at least once, though (2779)

What does that post have to do with mech?

Krazy · Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:29 pm

Fair. I probably could have phrased that post differently but I can see why you'd take that, I actually was more thinking in terms of bus potential as well but whatever. Anyway you're welcome to find the wealth of examples where I either forgot to submit a kill as scum or seriously considered no killing when it would give town an extra lynch.

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:52 am

In post 3155, Tanner wrote:i mean, same works in reverse... find a game where i either forgot to submit a kill, or no-killed knowing it would give an extra execute (and please don't make the argument that i didn't know that would happen), *while* showing up eod, reminding everyone that we need a hammer, as opposed to lurking then removing my vote when it's too late, where i don't tell my partner to lurk out as well, and knowing that the "oops i didn't know about that rule" would've been a viable excuse today considering absolutely nobody other than me was aware of it.

like, i don't get how you see that sequence of events and go "you know what? we should fight tanner."

I haven't even begun to start evaluating the VCA and I'm still thinking about EoD, I just don't like your posting. Why are you asking me to not make the argument you didn't know it would happen but feel okay making that argument for me? I feel like you're trying to make an oog insult to me in the process of casing me here lol

I feel like you really want this to be a 1v1

...which is fine actually, go for it

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:54 am

In post 3157, Hectic wrote:Why doesn't Tanner's Puppy push or him alerting everyone they lose if there's no launch at deadline change your mind?

I'll think about it tomorrow. Do you feel like you've conclusively convinced yourself that Tanner is never scum?

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:00 am

Yeah excuse me for dropping in due to insomnia

I feel like your meme could just as easily apply to me, but the fact is you're sitting here making memes trying to instigate something when I literally just said I haven't taken the time to fully analyze the game yet. We have two new flips and you came into today literally acting like YOUR reads haven't changed overnight at all. You're literally taking my problem with your slot and accusing me of it.

HURT: Tanner

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:01 am

Here's my new case:

town datisi doesn't post a meme this fucking cringe

if you think town datisi posts garbage like this you don't know town datisi

mostly because town datisi doesn't act like a prick LOL

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:03 am

like you're pretty clearly trying much harder to piss me off than convincing me you've put one iota of thought into my alignment which is not something town you does ever

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:10 pm

No, not necessarily. Tayl0r could also self-hammer/vote, a move she had largely indicated she'd be fine with. So scum actually winning there would require four total players to not be online to vote before deadline, after the chara slot who can hammer at any time to avoid spewing slots. You can say that he could have unvoted near the end but hammer resolves immediately so the odds of town actually no lynching at end of day 2 is extremely remote given how many hours were left in the day and the fact that it was moving into the time where people wake up

dog's play at the end of the day really only makes sense to me if his buddy is already on the wagon which is another reason I think Tanner pushing me at the start of today is kinda sus, I admit there's the possibility he's still hyper-tunneled but positioning himself as locktown for lynching town and fear-mongering an edgecase doesn't really do much for me

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:25 pm

In post 3176, Prism wrote:It is plausible a hammer could have happened. Not just letting it sit would be stupid to the point of throwing the game.

That's totally fair, and I don't deny that addressing it as an issue does increase his towncred. However, that towncred is lost to me when someone takes something that is +townie and tries to force it as being [forced locktown] and viewing any doubt about their alignment as suspicious. Scum can do townie things for towncred, and given that he's the one making the biggest deal about mech I can also see him finding *a reason* to no kill given he is already in the process of building a narrative before really anyone was seriously pushing him today. Like his posting today feels reactionary and almost desperate which is not the way someone who thinks they actually *should* be locktown would act

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:36 pm

I'm also pretty skeptical of MT being hard town but I probably need to find some span of two or three hours where I can actually process my notes and see if I'm just totally off the deep end, if not later tonight than hopefully tomorrow at the latest. I kind of want to just do a soft reset on my reads and try to come at the game fresh but that's really hard when I feel like Tanner is either a third or a fourth scum the way he began today (can't wait for him to say I'm 'butchering mech' again with that comment)

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:56 pm

###Colorized Votecount 1

Spoiler:

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:00 pm

FIGHT VOTECOUNT 1.4
Hectic-------------------------- (3) Tayl0r Swift, catboi, Prism
beeboy----------------------- (3) CantLynchAPuppy, Chara, Morning Tweet
Chara--------------------------- (2) Krazy, Hectic

If we take Prism as town (still my inclination) then this is an all town wagon on Hectic with a counter-wagon on scum led by scum. What is this game lol

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:02 pm

FIGHT VOTECOUNT 1.6
Hectic-------------------------- (2) Tayl0r Swift, Prism
beeboy----------------------- (2) CantLynchAPuppy, Chara
Chara--------------------------- (1) Krazy
Prism --------------------------
PookyTheMagicalBear ------- (3) Hectic, catboi, Tanner

If scum have usual spread then Chara would lean town off this and the Pooky wagon is worth looking at

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:05 pm

FIGHT VOTECOUNT 1.8
Hectic-------------------------- (1) Prism
beeboy----------------------- (4) Chara, Hectic, catboi , CantLynchAPuppy

note to self to look at CLAP's beeboy vote before 1.8

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:11 pm

If we pre-flip Lavender then Tweet actually looks pretty opportunistic day 2, suji-slot replaceout,, Lavender (lynchbait lurker), Tayl0r (somewhat self-destructive lost slot), I think reviewing that iso is probably top priority for tomorrow.

Need to think about the 2.4 wagon on my slot and CLAP's vote

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:16 pm

By the way Tweet I did see your response to me earlier and I do plan to respond to that, just wanted to get started on VCA

I think Chara's slot actually looks better than I was expecting and Tweet's slot looks a bit worse

I have some thoughts simmering on the wagon movement between CLAP and Tanner on day 2 but I don't want to talk more about that slot right now until I feel better about my overall solve, need to dive isos tomorrow, for now I'm off

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:17 pm

In post 3210, Morning Tweet wrote:You gotta include pooky too -- it appears he wasn't voting in that one?

This is all based on Isis's iso, I can't edit that post unfortunately and I did notice some other little issues (prism double voting at end of day etc.) that I haven't cleaned up on my doc

let me know any other bugs from the mod iso you notice (other than the duplicate vote count numbers

)

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:27 pm

Scumsman is most of the basis for my read on you, not really that specifically but more overall tone/approach

I haven't really deeply reviewed your other scum games or done a test to see if I can consistently differentiate your town from scum games but this game does feel *really* different in terms of thought process and dynamism/fluidity from Scumsman which felt like a fairly straightforward scum game

There are some things you've posted that have made me go ??? so I wouldn't say I'm casually throwing you as hard town as I was yesterday but my initial impression is still pretty strong and I think I'd probably still put you and chara as the beginnings of a townblock even with the few things that make me pause. I guess I can ask whether you subjectively think you have a wide enough scum range to feel as different as you do in scumsman and this but I'm not sure that answering that will help my read of you

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:32 pm

@Prism, I guess I would say that if you are scum this game, that you're putting in significantly more effort than you did in scumsman so I would give you props if nothing else

and that type of reasoning has burned me before in finding last scum (nancy in MD2 comes to mind) but I think sorting high-effort scum is just always a PITA but *often* it is much more effort than it's worth

I guess I would say in terms of NKA you're one of the players I can also see having a wide enough imagination to come up with 'a reason' to no kill but I still think the simpler answer is that you're *more likely* to just be town

really tho you're going to make me want to iso dive more people and it is too late tonight to do that so I'm going to have to force myself to peace out before my sleep schedule gets even more fucked lolol

Krazy · Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:44 pm

Oh no I'm consistently reminded that this game very closely borders on unplayable. Actually I just finished grading a student paper arguing that mafia is a game where it's actually impossible to formulate a coherent strategy going into the game. I was like... I want to disagree, but statistically there may be more truth to that than I'd like to admit

ACTUAL sleepytime now

Krazy · Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:32 pm

In post 3304, Chara wrote:why eod makes me more likely town. end of day 2?

Puppy posting at end of day kind of signals his presence to play into the town fears that there would be a no fight. If his only goal was to no fight, there's no reason for him to post at all. By posting, it suggests he was playing for a scenario where he is flipped and wanted to consciously give the impression he was positioning his team to no fight. But he really has no reason to do this unless his buddy is already on wagon and can't come in and either vote or theater with him in some way

although thinking about it again now, if his buddy is on wagon, it's still a question why he posts if his goal is to simply get the buddy to unvote near end of day. In that case maybe it would have made more sense for him to say he would hammer an hour or two before deadline and make it seem more final somehow. So I guess in a way his play doesn't really make much sense either way

Still I think the more straightforward explanation of his play is his buddy was already on the wagon and he wanted to try to spew anyone who didn't vote or hammer as his buddy in some way. but if you're scum then I guess that inference would be wrong

still I was thinking you were town anyway and it makes sense looking at the gamestate at that time that buddy was already on wagon

Krazy · Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:33 pm

In post 3310, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:I'd be ok with that chain as long as we sub your slot in for Krazy.

I think if we elim all three of Pooky/Chara/Hectic we probably win the game.

just thinking about gamestate, does pooky exclude tanner from this list if he's scum? or is my push so dead that he's just assuming that's not an actual counter-wagon? curious how hectic/others pushing pooky-scum think about that

Krazy · Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:43 pm

In post 3185, Morning Tweet wrote:Tanner feels different than usual in this game but I don't think it's for AI reasons.

Can you expand on what reasons you think Tanner seems different that's not AI?

Krazy · Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:53 pm

I'm having a hard time with Tanner because I feel like Puppy was very consciously *reacting* to Tanner's posts more than anyone else in a way at End of Day by coming in and basically announcing he was the chara by not voting. To that extent, I feel like puppy was trying to build a gamestate favorable to scum with his flip in mind. So basically either Puppy wanted to really fuck with Tanner in particular, or Puppy was coordinating with Tanner, and it seems like most people are veering toward puppy was just fucking with Tanner. Which is fine. I think I still need to wallcase Tanner basically just to have prism or someone else say "no you're crazy and the things you think are distancing in tanner's progression on puppy is actually town"

mostly because I don't really like tanner's progression on puppy, but "puppy was fucking with tanner" actually is a more elegant and straightforward explanation of the game than "tanner and puppy organized a plan to spew tanner town at end of day"

Krazy · Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:56 pm

In post 558, Morning Tweet wrote:
Hectic wrote:
-that i'm confident she's town. She's hard towntelling this game and I'd bet the game on her being town
(i have a towntell on her which has so far been very accurate - i'm not going to reveal what it is because it is too valuable)

HEAL: Morning Tweet
wtf already?

(¬ω¬) hmmmm

I'm pretty sure this was talked about at length at some point but the claimed towntell was never publicly revealed correct?

Krazy · Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:01 pm

In post 1526, Morning Tweet wrote:I might bend to the will of the crowd and move tayl0r down. I had crazy, somewhat conspiracy level reasons to trust her though.

In post 1587, Morning Tweet wrote:siiiiighhhhh maybe we can chuck Tayl0r for funsies. I'll think abt it more later today

Tweet can you expand on your mid-game Tayl0r progression? What was the conspiracy reason you had for Tayl0r town and why did you go from being "maybe willing to move her down" to being okay chucking her for funsies? Sorry if you've expanded on this elsewhere in your iso, it helps me to ask questions when they strike me

Krazy · Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:19 pm

In post 3318, Prism wrote:also did you ever answer why Tanner gives us a free misfight and immediately points it out, again is that supposed to net him two misfights or what? Sorry if you have and I missed it

no, I typed up a post kinda exploring different possibilities but realized it was going in circles so deleted it. Basically I don't know. I don't know why scum didn't no kill, I don't know why scum gave us an extra day and an extra fight. But given that I simply have no baseline for scum motivation there I kinda just want to call it a wash. I don't really give him towncred for pointing out something that gives me no actual information about who the scum is.

Again, it's hard not to admit that a lot of my issue with his slot is pure omgus. I feel like anyone who has played with me as scum knows that I loathe playing scum and would never, ever prolong a game, so him still pushing me despite that makes me feel like he could have *a non-town agenda* somehow in doing so, but he could simply be lost and biting at his reads from earlier in the game.

Still I'm bullheaded enough to keep calling him scum even if I don't really get why he's playing the way he is if he is scum

Krazy · Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:22 pm

In post 3322, Morning Tweet wrote:it more comes off as a difference in mood. This game has been a struggle to effort in at certain times and it feels like Tanner got hit by that on occasion.

I dont know. I feel like Tanners desire to play has been dying at certain points and I think it's enough to throw off meta.

ok fair. But if datisi is simply conventionally polarized and doesn't particularly like playing scum, why would a difference in mood pointing to waning interest not be scum indicative? I feel like that's the specific change in mood that is most often scum indicative?

Krazy · Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:46 pm

While I do still plan to write a wall to map out my thoughts on Tanner, I guess I'm not seeing what you find as strongly town indicative off this progression

In post 1093, Tanner wrote:
In post 1092, CantHateAPuppy wrote:
In post 1089, Tanner wrote:also i had a thought that elements was bussed and that scum was gonna try to get themselves spared off of towncred, and for puppy to enter the game going for spares... yay paranoia.

i'm pretty sure 4 fights are optimal in every single scenario now. day 2 is definitely a fight day to either win or get Not Chara flipped. since the "if mafia is spared, they win if both of them survive Day 5" clause in 1-3 is now pointless, sparing on day 3/4 is just setting off those executes for later... while losing 2 public cops. i can crunch the numbers later if anyone is that interested in it, but i'm pretty sure fighting is the way.
This wouldn't really make sense though, your argument would be that 4 fights is obviously objectively correct, also scum bussed for credit so they could play better in an inferior position. Why would scum bus at all?

I think it's more realistic that scum didn't bus, or at least didn't push the wagon until it was too late. In that case, sparing is a decent move because we'd save two townreads and still get a copcheck for it. 2 + 1 > > 2
yes, i realized it wouldn't make sense because "wait a minute, fighting is clearly optimal, nobody is gonna enter day 2 asking for spares!"

...except then you did exactly that.

i am 99.99% sure that genocide is the superior option as i was thinking about it earlier but now it's past midnight and my math brain is closed.

here's my spicy take of the night.

HURT: puppy

In post 1440, Tanner wrote:
In post 1422, CantHateAPuppy wrote:
In post 1395, Tanner wrote:puppy's interactions with ele *are* decent from what i remember. i'd have to give them a reread and/or chat with puppy a bit more today.
What do you want to talk about

Ele had a weird push on me that felt forced, chara made a good point about him, I pushed and then he subbed out. I actually feel lucky more than anything, but there's still no way his partners wanted that bus to go through
i don't know what i want to talk about. something that makes me think you're not trying to murder us all, because at this point i'm sounding insane to myself. i guess a good start would be who you're willing to fight today and what is actually your read on me?

I don't know how to describe it, but it feels like he comes up with an idea of what he wants to do about the slot then changes his mind a few posts later in a way that feels more forced than natural.

I guess stuff like "at this point i'm sounding insane to myself" and then asking about his read on himself feels like he's giving himself to back off Puppy in a way, or not push it too hard.

I guess partly it bothers me just a bit that there's a 300 post gap between announcing his spicy take and really continuing on it, he kinda gets more into the rest of the game first. Maybe my tired brain missed something though

Like, putting Tanner aside, if you're scum and know a buddy is poisoned and is going to flip no matter what that night, then I can definitely see a world where you begin the day pushing the poisoned buddy while planning to back off or let the rest of the game go in other directions so that you don't actually bus but still get the towncred for the push, i.e. classic distancing

so the question is where does classical distancing end and a town-indicative scum push begin? Well I guess, having forgotten his iso, we could posit a theorem:
if after this, he gives himself more room to back off, it could be scummy
but if he took strong conviction and tried to build a wagon, it'd be townie

now, if we look at the next post:

In post 1463, Tanner wrote:who would you like to f i g h t ?
also i'm not trying to make you scumread me, i'm triyng to sort you by seeing what your read on me is or something like that

this would seem to fit 'model 1' i.e. distancing

In post 1463, Tanner wrote:like it almost feels like purposefully playing dumb?? i dunno???

but suji slot seemed so like scum, but i don't think they're partnered with puppy???? help

and of course, knowing now that puppy is scum and that I'm town and tanner is still pushing me, this a) really bothers me and b) makes me wonder what happened to this reasoning today

this... is not my wallpost btw. although it is kinda wallposty. okay whatever I'm going to sleep lol

Krazy · Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:47 am

Re3345, prism I was sayng I would never no kill, I wasn't talking about concessions at all. As scum I would never force myself to play an extra day of the game

Krazy · Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:22 am

In post 3436, Chara wrote:i mean, um... eliminate Krazy? because evidence and scumhunting and playing mafia.

I'm pretty confused by your progression on me. You said earlier you think I'm 'looking in' which I don't really get, and I'm not sure what you're seeing as scummy or why you briefly were saying you didn't want to fight me

Krazy · Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:24 am

In post 3430, Chara wrote:Prism/Tanner are never* scum, and Lavender/Tweet have some good reasons not to be.

can you expand on like...... all of this lol

Krazy · Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:25 am

In post 3429, Tanner wrote:what about the gamestate is pointing to that?

because his posting makes more sense if he was trying to spew people off the wagon as scum partners, which would imply the partner is on the wagon

Krazy · Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:27 am

In post 3429, Tanner wrote:you're saying scum-you would go over all of the rules carefully during n2? and not miss the n4-is-skipped? (i'm aware this might be a dumb and/or pointless question but)

In general I think building a case around the idea someone didn't read the rules before deciding to no kill is a great way to throw a game lol

like Datisi

do you want

to case me

based on the idea

I either didn't read the rules

or couldn't understand the rules

is that like, a real argument, you actually want to make in this game?

Krazy · Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:30 am

In post 3429, Tanner wrote:and this also... *insanely* bothers me. we can also pose a different theorem:
- if tanner gave up his puppy push when he realized nobody is listening to him and decided to try to sort elsewhere where it was viable, it'd be towny
- if tanner decided to keep being tunneled on puppy and not try to sort anyone else and then tomorrow farm up the towncred from pushing confscum the whole day, it'd be scummy

I don't agree with this at all, even kinda

the whole reason Prism was freaking out yesterday was because that was *the day*

that was the day Chara is still alive and lynching chara can result in gamewin

and you're making it seem like you were hyper tunneled. you weren't. this is a misrepresentation of your day 2 trajectory

you said it was a spicy hot take, 300 posts later you basically asked him to give you a reason to unvote him, and then later you kinda just stopped

selling the narrative that that is a "tunnel" you broke out of seems pretty distant from what actually happened

Krazy · Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:52 am

I know there are three distinct reasons people are arguing Tanner is town, but just to be clear, this progression:

In post 1440, Tanner wrote:i don't know what i want to talk about. something that makes me think you're not trying to murder us all, because at this point i'm sounding insane to myself. i guess a good start would be who you're willing to fight today and what is actually your read on me?

In post 1093, Tanner wrote:here's my spicy take of the night.

HURT: puppy

is very easily s/s

Point #1: "Why would tanner observe that the game is lost if there's no fight on day 2?"

because four people could wake up and hammer and he gets a lot of towncred for fearmongering to force people to commit to *a fight on town*

Point #2: "Why would tanner no kill and then observe there's an extra fight for a no kill?"

Why would he NOT do this as scum? Why would *Anyone* do this as scum? He's literally the only one who seems to have a motivation for it since he's arguing it should be town indicative for him (when it isn't) and to push me (who is also town)

So of the three points for town tanner:

1 "Eod2 fear of no fight" I acknowledge that my concerns about 1 are striking people as like paranoid or something, but we're looking at a scenario where puppy came in and basically reinforced the narrative and fear that tanner was building when that narrative and fear didn't exist before tanner created it. So we're either looking at a scenario where puppy was just playing off and manipulating the gamestate tanner created, or he was working with tanner to create that gamestate. That's convoluted and inelegant but that doesn't mean it's not what actually happened

Point 2 -- "start of day 3 extra fight observation" -- Prism keeps bringing this up and I still kinda just don't get this argument at all. Why does this make him town at all? It's basically IIOA, or it would be IIOA if he wasn't using it to push me, so instead it's just a pretext for a bad push

Point 3 -- "day 2 puppy progression" -- Tweet has this as the basis of her towncase on Tanner, and I look at it and see it as a high probability s/s interaction

I don't think any of the three town-clearing elements of a tanner towncase hold water and some of them seem to point to him as being scum instead

Krazy · Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:54 am

In post 3448, Chara wrote:"outside looking in" refers to how it feels like you're sort of playing a different game than the rest of us. i don't know what it means yet, maybe it means you're the only one with your head screwed on correctly, but it's referring to things like the Tanner and Tweet suspicion.

I guess, I wasn't even sure I disagreed. I'm coming off a six month break from forum mafia and in that time I played a lot of video mafia and learned that my go-to approach is actually kinda aloof, at least more aloof than I realized it was before

Krazy · Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:00 pm

I mean it's true that puppy didn't have a lot of momentum at the start of the day, but I guess for Tweet to call Tanner town off the progression I'd like to see the part where it seems that Tanner either tried or seemed to really want Puppy to happen because I kinda don't see it

Krazy · Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:06 pm

In post 3461, Chara wrote:i'm looking back on Tanner's progression on Puppy, with the reminder that the wagon really wasn't going to happen (do you agree with this, in the first place?) and wondering why Tanner didn't push harder than he did. do you think he held back out of fear the wagon would get traction?

I kinda don't honestly, and I guess what I mean by that is that I don't really see how Tanner reached a point where he understood the reasoning or logic at a deeper level on why Puppy was town from the people defending him, like he said he thought puppy was scum but never really used that as a metric for solving the game or looking for associatives *aside* from saying he didn't think I was scum with puppy who he now wants to push anyway

like if that's his nighttime hottake why doesn't it feel like he does anything with it I guess?

like in a way his play toward puppy kinda reminds me of how I approached dannflor in titus vs pine. Like I pushed tanner for pushing puppy yesterday because I didn't really think he had a very townie case at the time, and so obviously I was wrong there but I kinda feel like that doesn't make tanner more town. Instead I feel like I was just catching Tanner for distancing Puppy because the distancing wasn't convincing and I hadn't processed that Puppy was also scum yet. In that game I got pushed a lot for accusing Dannflor because people didn't like my case but I eventually managed to get townread for it. Which is kinda what I'm saying--I feel like Tanner is playing this game in pretty much the exact manner I would be doing so if I was scum