Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[redtea]

Heyheyhey my eyes are goin crosseyed trying to make sense a all this

chara sympathizers, the lot of you HURT: Chara

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the custom tags are neato.

Sorry to break the fun but
i read the setup going in. Somehow I was very confident. I am no longer confident.
Is the purpose of fighting only for info? Is 0 or 4 spares the ideal??

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Oh my god. MorningTweet just stole my post intro. I should just post what I have if I can't drudge up anything else:

I am so sorry for being utterly useless. Statistics make my brain melt.
I would say I have reads but what ones I made out were counterbalanced from what I could understand of setup talk.
All I got is: The quick estimate Pooky gave I do no give out town points for (regardless ty for your contribution) and the ones who went the extra mile (catboi, Prism). Maf wouldn't fuckin bother, or think to, anyway. Esp. with how "focusing on game mechanics" is looked at.

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i gave it a like elements <3 v cool

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well there ya go

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what is taylor swift on rn

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Didn't notice the typo fuck

Oh my god. MorningTweet just stole my post intro. I should just post what I have if I can't drudge up anything else:

I am so sorry for being utterly useless. Statistics make my brain melt.
I would say I have reads but what ones I made out were counterbalanced from what I could understand of setup talk.
All I got is: The quick estimate Pooky gave I do no give out town points for (regardless ty for your contribution) and the ones who went the extra mile (catboi, Prism). Maf wouldn't fuckin bother, or think to, anyway. Esp. with how "focusing on game mechanics" is looked at.

*who went the extra mile, I do.

[redtea]

Not only NAI, but people are quick to point out mechanics-talk as a maf content padding tactic.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying maf won't partake in ANY mechanics discussion, but they ARE much more likely to leave it open-ended, be non-committal, etc. It's only the lengths catboi and Prism went that are in any way AI. Usually there's no point making heads for tails of it, unless someone is obviously leading mechanics-apathetic town astray.

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Also correct me if I'm wrong but was there not a conclusion that taking the neutral route is the least useful @taylorswift

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MorningTweet I'm gonna hold off on what you asked for now. Trust me when I say you don't want my frozen takes.

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dont encourage them

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Also correct me if I'm wrong but was there not a conclusion that taking the neutral route is the least useful @taylorswift

I'm going to reiterate @everyone is neutral route (combined spare/fight)

not the worst possible route?

[redtea]

Actually I don't know how bad it is except for the fact it has the possibility of letting chara off. But it does have that

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wooh wooh Wall Incoming wooh wooh

anyway, Prism town because he did the math and was accurate before catboi revealed his spreadsheets
he made the effort but showed no working or proof to try and make it look impressive or get any towncred from it

I really want to hear more explanation on this. At this point, you've seen one of each of my games. What gives you this impression?

I gotta say it is a bad take on Hectic's part. The spreadsheets show that he wasn't baselessly echoing Prism for cred but legitimately corroborating.
Both catboi and prism are well tr'd at this point though so I suppose it doesn't really matter

i have a positive read on Chara/catboi/Prism and probably a slight one on Puppy/Tanner. Puppy moreso than Tanner. Also maybe redtea. So like catboi>Chara>Prism>Puppy>Tanner>redtea

Undecided so far on {Hectic, Lavender, Pooky, taylor, and Elements}

HEAL: catboi
HURT: Elements

I have no idea how Elements got Puppy changing his tune from 193. also sheeping Chara

Spoiler: this post span

makes me sad but i know when i'm beat, 4 SPARES is a no go
any of ya gonna work out the numbers for 1 to 3 SPARES?

anyway, Prism town because he did the math and was accurate before catboi revealed his spreadsheets
he made the effort but showed no working or proof to try and make it look impressive or get any towncred from it

i believe catboi when he says he wouldn’t reveal the EV working if he was mafia
only because he decided to out his info right after I made a huge case on 4 SPARES, where there was some uncertainty where town would go, and it wasn’t just guaranteed to be genocide anyway

mechanically 4 spares is sub-optimal but if we don't spare we're basically just playing normal mafia

yeah bud, that's honestly my main issue
hopefully we can make a 1-3 SPARE route work if the EV for that is acceptable

hectic who would you spare right now

hectic who would you spare right now

changing your tune a bit

Elements should have known the context for puppys post, he was just talking to Hectic about it 2 posts above it! I am curious as to what the intent of pointing this out really was

Puppy,

was

clearly humoring Pooky,

but

I saw it as Elements being wary about puppy making an inquiry in order to refer back to it if he makes a change of opinion on fighting/sparing down the line. Like, yeah it can be posed as "just humoring him" now, but later Puppy could reframe it as "no I was actually curious and after hearing his opinion I thought fuck it sure". imo i would've let it play out before pointing fingers in order to catch him in the act. Though uh. Puppy may... be going on with the act right now.
My brain isn't supplying sentences to me easily right now, hope that makes sense.

Unsure

[Prism]

pulls out the "No I don't have reads on them, I'm not happy about it, I'm working on it but I wanted to be honest" as scum

Yeah he could have but i'm leaning against it

the wording seems to be implying it, but to be sure, this is based off of meta? I haven't played any games with him (iirc) so.

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now this

each day only one contestant "nominates" themselves to be judged by the collective town - placing his fate in the hands of his peers.

He shall write a long post detailing why he is worthy of being spared and healed.

Then all players will vote on this person's candidacy - either heal or hurt and the day will end with his healing or hurting.

so only those of us with the most pure of hearts should try this

i just

this can only end badly. You all realize this can only end badly?

[redtea]

.-.

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tfw you have to wake up before noon to interact with everyone



at least i have teddy
the sparebear

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each day only one contestant "nominates" themselves to be judged by the collective town - placing his fate in the hands of his peers.

He shall write a long post detailing why he is worthy of being spared and healed.

Then all players will vote on this person's candidacy - either heal or hurt and the day will end with his healing or hurting.

so only those of us with the most pure of hearts should try this

Maybe this could work later in the game but like A.) tons of ppl are going to nominate themselves rn and B.) there isn't a whole lot of tangible reasons for a lot of people

Like if say taylor nominated herself (which she did). Then what. I dont have a read on taylor. i seriously doubt she can present some kind of self towncase at this point that would help me much

So then I just have the act itself to judge off of I guess. I would nominate myself as either alignment just because of the sheer unlikeliness of the plan working and it'll look sort of good on me if im scum.

Those are good points too. To add on, this format really just seems like giving maf free reign to unabashedly garner "supporters"/tr's. It puts all the players on the spot, pushing them to go with their gut feeling- especially on D1. Anyone who sings pretty enough could get themselves a spare.
I'm not in favor of ever utilizing this plan, but

D1

? No.

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*utilizing this plan ever

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Oh I already said "ever", I just put it before.
Well read whichever way you prefer, I'm going to go wake myself up.

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I've been keeping up and have some Thoughts about hectic and the two almost-wagons, but it's too late to type out right now.
Someone asked me a question... thought it was tweet... i'll figure it out in the morning......

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Sorry for the multipost, didn't want to make quoting a hassle for others.

I gotta say it is a bad take on Hectic's part. The spreadsheets show that he wasn't baselessly echoing Prism for cred but legitimately corroborating.
Both catboi and prism are well tr'd at this point though so I suppose it doesn't really matter

I was criticizing your catboi read, not your Prism one.
Point is, I don't think your reason for invalidating catboi's cred is well thought out. I think the way he corroborated put them on equal ground.

Nifty hat. Well, don't mind me, just going to be opportunist scum parking on you knowing you won't really respond for three days.

Meh, the mopiness is

annoying

but I don't know that it's

scummy

and now that I take off the rage-goggles, even though we disagree on our approaches he seems to be making attempts to legitimately evaluate people

catboi, I'm not seeing these "attempts to legitimately evaluate people" anywhere before you made this post. Could you point me to some examples?

[redtea]

Spoiler: @Chara

258 sucks, but that's old news now i guess. AI non-mech talk has been happening for a whie since before that post.

redtea: re: 266, what sort of act do you think Puppy is playing right now? also, what's your read on Elements?

I wanna see Puppy talk some more first.
Elements I'll have to get back to you on. I've amassed a bunch of shit to post and he slipped my mind considering he's.. not here.......
.-.

happy scumday Tweet!

i don't have much to say to your response, besides that i think i agree with you more. i was just concerned you'd locktowned him for it, but i can see that isn't the case.

Just a question, was the concern more about catboi's regard among the town or about MT's behavior?

[redtea]

Spoiler: @Tanner

i didn't think i'd ever have the urge to vig 1/3rd of the players in a given game, but it's actually happened.

Well, 25% of the players in the game right now are scum, but it's probably not all the non-contributors. It's never that easy...usually.

what if... the scumteam was... exactly taylor/lavender/pooky .. aha ha, just kidding.. unless.. ?

i feel like i'm going back and forth on hectic. i really liked 302 (as it's almost the exact same thought i had upon seeing it) and the fact he's pressuring pooky, but then one person that seems to have experience with him says he's suspicious, then the other person that has experience with him says that's the hectic they wanted to see and sigh. wish

i

knew how to read hectic.

@hectic, do you have a read on me yet?

i hate that at this point i want to townread people (e.g. chara and prism with pooky on this page) just for telling people to

play the damn game

.

This is interesting Tanner. You

like

that Hectic was "pressuring" Pooky? That was something I wanted to touch on.
The way I saw it was definitely an indirect "well what about _". Ofc he didn't do so directly because, in most cases, that would be childish, but...

After being pushed to Do Something, he

immediately

went for a push on Pooky (me at first. Claims it has to do with a harder read on him, but it could easily be he felt Pooky to be more vulnerable/be less confrontational fighting back, more manipulatable, etc). Considering that there was already content that he could've interacted with, deciding to only push another lurker was just lazy. He could have done both, you know, talked to a few people and also went "if you guys are gonna drag me into the open let's get Pooky out here too." I feel his approach did three things:
1) established a hierarchy of lurking (Hectic lurks less than Pooky)
2) passed the responsibility of "generating content" off to Pooky
3) let him coast by relying on Pooky (i.e. "I have nothing to say because Pooky isn't giving worthwile responses")

Reading the thread, Prism says this pretty succinctly here #320 and here #341. Consider this my supporting post.

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I think I forgot to finish a thought

3) let him coast by relying on Pooky (i.e. "I have nothing to say because Pooky isn't giving worthwile responses")

*would allow him to coast. He has done a bit of talking since then, but also

did

make this post here #323.
Anyway, this one was meant more to be "he could take advantage" than "he has".

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hectic is very good as scum

but if we go the spare route it will not matter

what are you actually talking about

[redtea]

I was criticizing your catboi read, not your Prism one.
Point is, I don't think your reason for invalidating catboi's cred is well thought out. I think the way he corroborated put them on equal ground.

let me quote it again.

anyway, Prism town because he did the math and was accurate before catboi revealed his spreadsheets
he made the effort but showed no working or proof to try and make it look impressive or get any towncred from it

this is very clearly paints Prism's actions in a different light than catboi's.
You can simultaneously tr someone and not give them town credit for something other people have

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wh

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i think you just jumped into his pocket bro

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the fuck
#419

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shit i learned a long time ago then forgot how to do it and now I get it wrong half the time
sorry bout that

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lol @ elements walkin in like he never left

my first thought upon reading this post was "alright, now to try and emulate my town self that Prism is recognizing so i can keep getting townread."
Undertale S ruined me.

Rlly Hectic?
This is so slimy. It's like a hagfish after tying itself in a knot.
It's autological and I don't like it.

Okay, I wasn't going to give my 2 cents on this but looks like I will
The first line: easily faked.
The second line: very natural addition.
Conclusion: NAI.

190 shows him making some kind of reads. the logic on prism is fairly iffy, though. 302 is a read of some kind. 311 pressuring pooky is reasonable? like I had been thinking similarly, he just said it before me. 316 as the explanation for the vote-flip makes sense? little moment of indecisiveness that is maybe townie. Yeah, I kind of crapped out that read, it's not as strong as I thought but it at least shows an attempt?

too sloppy to remember to include post links, edit by way of post

Two of those are from after the og post but eh yeah
I do like the fact that he's been more involved recently but I dont tr him that's for sure.

you stole my post about Elements, which is that he's made a good amount of posts you can't get shit from sorry @Chara

[redtea]

sorry taylor that wasn't a reaction to his post it was a reaction to my goofs

Tanner is the kind of easily likeable guy I let slip by too easily and is making things hard rn honestly

Lavender, I'm gonna give you an easy one to start with. If you could bump off one person right now who would it be. Not saying you have to stick with it, or that it has to be a hard sr, but gun to your head who would it be and why.

[redtea]

actually
wanna share what you have against 419 taylor

[redtea]

huh
i misunderstood hectic
huh

@hectic

do you not give towncredit for catboi's calucations

lowkey I keep imagining prism/catboi sighing every time we bring up this one thing from the beginning of the game they don't even hard tr each other for, I'm so sorry lol

lavender it feels like you aren't really reading the game.
You say you'd fight Taylor but like, the only difference I'm seeing between you two is attitude. You both seem to be "waiting" on something that's already started.

[redtea]

This game feels so disconnected I think puppy was the bridge plz come back

[redtea]

sephia crew only

[redtea]

pooky the fact that that makes sense is hilarious
unfortunately catboi is too town for that

[redtea]

Tanner is the kind of easily likeable guy I let slip by too easily and is making things hard rn honestly

while i do enjoy being called a likeable guy, is there anything i can do to make things not-hard?

I don't know what I want out of you atm. If I think of something I'll say it.

You're not the only one thinking lavender's post is NG but they're not the only one actin like that
and it's been pages of this
so

Okay I'm proposing an alliance between me, Tanner, Morning Tweet, and redtea. Just need to find one more person there I'm comfy with.

okay catboi how did I get in here and not Prism. That isn't a thing that happens.
For real though, did you like, forget them?

I'll go ahead and make it clear here that my reads of that list is [town, neutral, town-lean]. Not trying to kick Tanner out or anything; for all Intents and Purposes I may as well consider him an ally, as I wouldn't fight him today and he doesn't seem to have the formidable-scary-maf reputation Chara does.

[redtea]

@Puppy I kept missing your posting hours, and then you were gone but I did indeed read your posts and had some opinions I couldn't go anywhere with without you around.
People were askin me "hey what're you sniffin on puppy" and I couldn't answer.

also i was thinking about spares again. i forgot why we gave up on them. i know it's unlikely that we'll spare correctly 4 times in a row, but is the 4 spare ending really that bad? say there's one scum in finale, wouldn't that be pretty good odds with strong town players? or would paranoia + no flips be too much to overcome?

.

[redtea]

pagetops kinda ruining my multi-posts vibe honestly

[redtea]

unfortunately catboi is too town for that

I don't believe it's possible for an experienced player to be "too-town" unless they like single-handedly are responsible for getting rid of like nearly the entire scum-team or whatever.

let me put it this way:
catboi has done nothing sus this whole game that I've seen, and any association-based reads would be formed by negative space, making them not very strong. Plausible,

technically

, but not strong.

pooky has come back swinging goddamn

Spoiler: @pooky, irrelevant shit

#547 catboi mentioned a similar sentiment a long time ago, but I also understand wanting to mitigate runaway town players actually being gung-ho about sparing and possibly throwing the game, especially with a proven superior route available. something something maf thrive on chaos something something.

@Hectic

#572 It weirds me out that you have nothing better than a 'lazy gut read' on Prism. One of the most active posters with the most content.
The precedent #531 to this post does make it less maf-y but I still don't like it.

[redtea]

@MorningTweet

#563 I- I don't know if having 'unique reads' in the block is. Is a reason to tr me?
Cause like, I suppose if you ally with that many people, and you find them all explicitly town- like, one should know there's probably maf among them, so in that way, I could see having 'unique reads' translating to 'having people they're comfortable dealing with over a bunch of hard town-reads/leans which may or may not be influenced by the fact they play better'. But I don't know if that's what you were feeling there? Not to mention I would absolutely have both of my hard trs in there.
Maybe it's just that I personally get suspicious when there's 'one of everything' within a group, so it's not something I'd gut-town over. Idk.
Whatever, I'm supposed to be trusting you for now, anyway.

Also, does Elements's linked posts not show a very deliberate progression from Puppy?
verifying genocide is better -> confirms it is better -> mentions scenarios where 1-3 could be better (as did catboi) but continues with geno -> "wants sparing to work", but concedes that sparing for the

first two days

wouldn't work out (which leaves open to possibility for 1-3) -> humours hectic/pooky -> advocates 4-spare.
In other words G->G->G/N->N->N/P->P. Like that's a

perfect

progression. [G=genocide, N=neutral, P=pacifism]

my lame take is that lavender is scummy for lurking. my spicy take is that puppy might be a good candidate to fight.

I can't say I like the fact that you and Elements are the only ones other than me getting tricksy vibes from the puppy but. What are your reasons?

lol @puppy no questions just wanted you to make the exact posts you ended up doing

[redtea]

catboi has done nothing sus this whole game that I've seen, and any association-based reads would be formed by negative space, making them not very strong. Plausible, technically, but not strong.

isn't the whole point of being mafia to not do anything suspicious?

a wiseguy eh
can I pull a catboi read from you?

[redtea]

the thing is Tanner I feel like either lavender or taylor swift could fill that role of no associations.
I suppose it makes sense to give up as NotChara once town locks onto genocide route, since immediately is almost a given, but since both were absent from the beginning (and one still is)...
Like, Town historically doesn't take kindly to lurkers. I could see that being the first strategy to come to mind, yeah, but it's also extremely shallow. It doesn't hold up.

[redtea]

........
Okay okay. Catboi has given me reasons to tr him. He hasn't not given me any counteracting maf-y hints. It's that easy yo.

Pooky, almost

everyone

was sus of you/pushing you.

[redtea]

this dude just wrote a whole-ass wall of china

[redtea]

While I feel like I've been talking about catboi all day and would rather not continue to do so, I'll read your take thoroughly and respond tomorrow Pooky.
Also: the case against you is that you pushed for a strategy that is most helpful to maf wincon. It doesn't help you've been playing like you're jester til now. It really is that simple.

[redtea]

Sorry for the afk. My computer is out of service atm so my posts are gonna be kinda shitty.

Pooky has made a whole scumcase of catboi what
I gotta catch up

[redtea]

Huh
I had it indexed in my mind as a "don't tr catboi he's sus" case than outright sr-case but
then again I haven't read it yet