Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Tayl0r Swift]

second HURT: hectic

[Tayl0r Swift]

going great so far.

are you chara?

[Tayl0r Swift]

spare me!

[Tayl0r Swift]

sparing a couple might be a good idea to give us a pool to shoot in at the end if we fail, right?

[Tayl0r Swift]

im also in the boat of i dont really care about the mech talk or evs. i think theyre silly and good play and the human element matters more than whats going on on paper. depending on the lobby different strats will work better or worse. none of these strats appear to break the game.

anyway, HEAL: Morning
that avatar has me pocketed.

[Tayl0r Swift]

7 pages of mech talk. 7 pages is nothing. and i have a hurt vote on record too. but ill participate properly when you all decide what strategy we should do. im very much of the opinion that mech talk and EVs are pretty much NAI and using them to justify strategy is gonna let scum persuade us to do what they want more often than not. it seems to me that a fight day 1 and then sparing later days is a good idea, but i really havent thought about it that much

[Tayl0r Swift]

is hectic being a naughty boy this game?

[Tayl0r Swift]

ill participate properly when you all decide what strategy we should do. im very much of the opinion that mech talk and EVs are pretty much NAI and using them to justify strategy is gonna let scum persuade us to do what they want more often than not. it seems to me that a fight day 1 and then sparing later days is a good idea, but i really havent thought about it that much

This attitude is really curious. Do you feel any of me, Hectic, or catboi are arguing EVs with scum intent? (ie. to push town into something scum wants)

If you're worried that scum is going to use EVs to persuade the town in a certain direction, essentially recusing yourself from the conversation and leaving it to others to decide without you-and giving the scum voices that much more weight-seems counterproductive imo.

nah but im mostly skimming the mech talk. im here to play mafia, and when you all are ready to do that let me know. unfortunately im not gonna be able to force myself to care about mech talk when its this mathematical. if the mechanics are simple and qualitative discussions are possible im here. but if you all wanna crunch numbers ill pass. i do enough number crunching outside this game already.

[Tayl0r Swift]

ill participate properly when you all decide what strategy we should do. im very much of the opinion that mech talk and EVs are pretty much NAI and using them to justify strategy is gonna let scum persuade us to do what they want more often than not. it seems to me that a fight day 1 and then sparing later days is a good idea, but i really havent thought about it that much

This attitude is really curious. Do you feel any of me, Hectic, or catboi are arguing EVs with scum intent? (ie. to push town into something scum wants)

If you're worried that scum is going to use EVs to persuade the town in a certain direction, essentially recusing yourself from the conversation and leaving it to others to decide without you-and giving the scum voices that much more weight-seems counterproductive imo.

nah but im mostly skimming the mech talk. im here to play mafia, and when you all are ready to do that let me know. unfortunately im not gonna be able to force myself to care about mech talk when its this mathematical. if the mechanics are simple and qualitative discussions are possible im here. but if you all wanna crunch numbers ill pass. i do enough number crunching outside this game already.

[Tayl0r Swift]

i volunteer

[Tayl0r Swift]

nah but im mostly skimming the mech talk. im here to play mafia, and when you all are ready to do that let me know. unfortunately im not gonna be able to force myself to care about mech talk when its this mathematical. if the mechanics are simple and qualitative discussions are possible im here. but if you all wanna crunch numbers ill pass. i do enough number crunching outside this game already.

චᆽච Okay, lemme ask: how do you plan to get reads? what do you expect your process to be for playing mafia this game?

presumably you all plan on playing mafia and not just talking mech? ill play when you all start.

[Tayl0r Swift]

what AI content would you like to discuss?

[Tayl0r Swift]

this game is pretty frustrating, ngl. i feel like after 15 pages no one has said anything meaningfully ai.

[Tayl0r Swift]

the fuck
#419

heh that was my reaction too

[Tayl0r Swift]

Here’s a line I always say: Ask me any questions and I’ll answer ^_−☆

what's your opinion on the 17 pages that have happened so far?

They're mostly talking about the optimal way to win this game right?
I think it's just fine, it gives a better understanding of the game, somewhat at least.
The chances of messing up because of mechanics is lowered in my opinion because of them.

Pooky, I just think Pooky is being Pooky. I do think it sounds like a fun idea though. (*≧▽≦)

Lavender, I'm gonna give you an easy one to start with. If you could bump off one person right now who would it be. Not saying you have to stick with it, or that it has to be a hard sr, but gun to your head who would it be and why.

Mmmmmm, Taylor?
Because of this post,

7 pages of mech talk. 7 pages is nothing. and i have a hurt vote on record too. but ill participate properly when you all decide what strategy we should do. im very much of the opinion that mech talk and EVs are pretty much NAI and using them to justify strategy is gonna let scum persuade us to do what they want more often than not. it seems to me that a fight day 1 and then sparing later days is a good idea, but i really havent thought about it that much

I wouldn't say mech talk is nothing, and saying it is doesn't sound real townie to me. (>_<)


Oh, I forgot to HURT: Nahdia

hmm the vote doesnt seem to follow,but i guess you mean you forgot to do it last post? speaking of reading comprehension, youre either struggling yourself or misrepping me. i said "7 pages is nothing". you read that as "mech talk is nothing". my point was that 7 pages isnt a lot for me to develop solid reads. usually i start by doing a little townhunting, but i really cant townhunt without actual mafia. mechtalk is rarely town indicative.

[Tayl0r Swift]

and youll note that i have started chipping in a bit, more to come as the game gets going. but to me today is basically the first time i havent been bored out of my mind reading the thread.

[Tayl0r Swift]

why are we talking about sparing? didnt we decide that killing was the better option?

[Tayl0r Swift]

to be fair pooky's insistence on sparing probably makes pooky town. sticking out like a sore thumb in the rear end is not what scum wants to do.

[Tayl0r Swift]

doing it 4 times in a row will not be a walk in the park with nightkills

I don't think I ever presented it as "easy"

but I do believe it will be a worthy goal and an amazing win if we can pull it off

why go for an amazing win when you can go for a safer win

[Tayl0r Swift]

doing it 4 times in a row will not be a walk in the park with nightkills

I don't think I ever presented it as "easy"

but I do believe it will be a worthy goal and an amazing win if we can pull it off

why go for an amazing win when you can go for a safer win

[Tayl0r Swift]

thats like me saying i need to get to work and can either a) drive or b) teleport. if i succeed at b itll be pretty amazing, but i think ill stick to a because its important that i get to work.

[Tayl0r Swift]

is elements normally this quiet as town?

[Tayl0r Swift]

yea but this is a game

we're not exactly doing life and death testing of some teleportation device

btw does any1 have a link to the other undercity games so I can see what you guys are talking about

ok but if you concede that fighting has the higher odds of winning then by sparing you are playing against wincon. why would you do that

[Tayl0r Swift]

It's definitely not outside my scum-range for sure.

Like I'd go all in for getting the Chara spared if I were scum because it would be absolutely glorious.

well in that case who do you want to see spared today?

[Tayl0r Swift]

Also I think taylor still talking spares is null, maybe she's just stubborn? There are a few players I'd like to see reads from more than setup spec (looking at you pooky ) and you're maybe tunneling on them tbh?

in case it wasnt clear, i was advocating that we fight

[Tayl0r Swift]

my lame take is that lavender is scummy for lurking. my spicy take is that puppy might be a good candidate to fight.

[Tayl0r Swift]

catboi has done nothing sus this whole game that I've seen, and any association-based reads would be formed by negative space, making them not very strong. Plausible, technically, but not strong.

isn't the whole point of being mafia to not do anything suspicious?

i think this is only true if youre playing scum

[Tayl0r Swift]

the thing is Tanner I feel like either lavender or taylor swift could fill that role of no associations.
I suppose it makes sense to give up as NotChara once town locks onto genocide route, since immediately is almost a given, but since both were absent from the beginning (and one still is)...
Like, Town historically doesn't take kindly to lurkers. I could see that being the first strategy to come to mind, yeah, but it's also extremely shallow. It doesn't hold up.

i would associate with you

[Tayl0r Swift]

hot take: pooky is town

[Tayl0r Swift]

catboi is my top scumread fwiw. i also dislike hectic for pushing a spare today, after everything else we've talked about re sparing/fighting.

[Tayl0r Swift]

i kinda think it would be hard to forget after fucking 25 pages of this nonsense. but its not a sure thing, so you get a scumpoint but im not voting for you. also heya

[Tayl0r Swift]

I might be forced to compromise but until that point this vote is not moving. Terrible responses imo

"legitimately pushing for sparing me" is really tenuous, and "this is the play friends" with arrows highlighting ithe spare vote on Morning, with the mech as the framing leading up to it, suggests that it was more than "idk just getting mech thoughts out there"

Not thinking to either sell others on the townread, and not showing any thought as to how likely a Morning spare was/what other spares might be considered. Giant red flags to me.

Still phone posting for now, I really want to read Morning/Puppy/Tanner when I get to my computer in a few hours

yaeh actually the more i think about it the more i agree that hectic has been overly defensive about this. i also still find it a little hard to buy that someone could forget whether spare or fight was the agreed upon strat after 20 pages of discussion

[Tayl0r Swift]

hmm i reread the iso and im not sure what i was seeing. its possible that the avatar just set me off? on rereading youre more null-town

[Tayl0r Swift]

i dunno! at the time i didnt like that catboi wont lay off pooky. pooky feels like lhf and kinda obvtown. but catboi overall i think is just overeager town.

[Tayl0r Swift]

prism is town. i feel like puppy is town but i dont recall any puppy posts recently so not sure why.

i dunno! at the time i didnt like that catboi wont lay off pooky. pooky feels like lhf and kinda obvtown. but catboi overall i think is just overeager town.

How is pooky low hanging fruit, and what makes him obvtown?

pooky is low hanging fruit because pushing the spare angle so hard just makes for a really easy target. you can play the "this is low EV town would never do this" card which is exactly what youve been doing. this is also exactly what makes pooky obvtown. it makes no sense for scum to push that hard for something thats so blatantly wrong. pooky stands out big time for that, which scum dont want to do. plus pooky just reads as genuine.

[Tayl0r Swift]

hectic - probably town. stop being a goof though, and while i agree that deciding lavender is town rather than scum is passing on an opportunity for opportunism, it feels like a weak read
elements - beeboy hasnt really done anything to make me townread that slot (yet)
chara - am i the only one thinking chara might be scum here? chara let themself be talked into scumreading me pretty easily, and seems to float around the popular opinions a lot but never do much scumhunting
prism - prolly just town
pooky - definitely town
catboi - i still have misgivings
morning - those ears could never be scum
lavender - needs more content, in PoE
redtea - i dont remember any posts from this slot. i guess at some point i should read the iso but its not a good sign if they arent doing anything worth remembering. could just be the awolness that made me forget
tanner - prolly just town
puppy - hasnt really done much townie recently, but was a townread earlier

so that makes my PoE chara, lavender, redtea, puppy. out of those i want to HURT: chara

[Tayl0r Swift]

Hey Taylor, really glad to see you collect your reads like that. I get some of your misgivings on catboi, but can you expound on why you shifted to thinking overeager town awhile back?

It seems like the scumread was more gutreaction to Pooky, but I'm curious as to what you were thinking as you read.

i dont know if i could really articulate my read on catboi. actually ive kinda proven that i cant. theres just something there i dont like.

i guess catboi and beeboy are also in PoE.

[Tayl0r Swift]

im down for a beeboy wagon

[Tayl0r Swift]

Prism's read list had a set of takes that I think come from town.
His read on MT although consistent of him saying a bunch of MT traits and calling them scum indicative.
I also really liked that read in particular.

To some degree I want to town read MT for Hectic's "Top secret meta read", since good players tend to not say that without a real reason to do so.
But I also think I could probably read her on my own since I am fairly experienced playing with her, and she did perceive herself to be scum in one game even if she was town and could have thought it was multiball.

I originally wanted to question Hectic because I never heard of this tell before!!! But the 3 games that the 3 of us touched were 2 games modded by hectic and 1 modded by MT.
For the amount I've played with both Hectic and MT I am genuinely suprised this is the first time the 3 of us have played together. I don't want to count the dance game since it was an anon game.

i read beeboy's iso to decide whether it was a worthwhile wagon, but this is the only post with AI content (except the post advocating spares, which is scummy and was done twice in two different ways: spare at least one, and the spare route is good), and the AI content here is meh. dunno if its just because of catchup or what. beeboy needs more content but im not ready to lunch there yet.

[Tayl0r Swift]

im down for a beeboy wagon

Then the instant swap here after being prodded about me lol.

you not being in the initial post was just an oversight. the second post was to clarify. nothing changed between the two posts.

[Tayl0r Swift]

hello i'm here earlier than usual since the deadline is in ~24 hours and i'm feeling dead tired today and will soon disappear back into the void for another 12 hours

my room-temperature bad-VCA take is that beeboy is prob town for how "fast" the wagon was there but also that i'd be willing to vote there if really necessary

i actually *don't* feel that strong of an urge to vote taylor anymore? i dunno. would definitely still fight lavender.

chara, i think you asked me about catboi? this is me acknowledging that i read that, but just... N/A. my brain is fried. the closest thing i got is that his townread on me felt ~weird~.

what exactly have i done to turn this around? if anything ive been doing less the last couple days, this seems like a strange townlean

[Tayl0r Swift]

why is it that everyone featured in the flavor looks super scummy in the flavor? like how is beeboy not evil in this flavor? and how was i not evil in the last one?

[Tayl0r Swift]

i think the word for my catboi read is gut.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Here's the breakdown after my reread:

Prism
Pooky
Tayl0r
Catboi
-------- SPARE LINE --------
Hectic

Redtea

Chara
-------------------------------
Tanner
Puppy
-------------------------------
Lavender
Elements-beeboy

i don't necessarily disagree with you, but how did you get from here to there?

The process was probably something like..

0. Beeboy-elements scum, catboi town
1. Puppy up twice
2. Tanner up
3. Lavender may be town I really dunno, check the next tier where {Chara, Hectic, Tanner, Redtea} are. Most likely scum in there is Redtea, move them down

Prism
Pooky
Tayl0r

Catboi

-------- SPARE LINE --------
Puppy
-------------------------------
Chara
Hectic
Tanner
-------------------------------
Lavender
Redtea

Elements-beeboy

yesterday i was unsure about catboi and elements, but agreed with the rest of the readlist. actually im not quite sure why im so high up, but im not gonna question it too too much. i prolly just pocketed you by flopping your ears. i propose that we move hectic up in the readlist, and chara down. i really really feel like chara is chara.

[Tayl0r Swift]

i really really feel like chara is chara.

I would like to know more - this is very interesting

shut up you jerk, you know what i mean.

[Tayl0r Swift]

no I really don't.

I'm sorry if I'm being a jerk in any way - I do not mean to be.

i still just feel like charas posts are mostly fluff and chara is present in the thread but not present in the scumhunting much. theres just too much fluff.

[Tayl0r Swift]

i really really feel like chara is chara.

I would like to know more - this is very interesting

shut up you jerk, you know what i mean.

gross overreactions often have comedic value. the internet makes it hard to evaluate though

[Tayl0r Swift]

I'm going to get some coffee and then I'm probably going to reread the game from scratch. Is there anything anyone wants me to keep an eye out for?

Also, Chara-Did you think you had unvoted beeboy/Elements before this?

keep an eye out for how cute i am pls

[Tayl0r Swift]

This, I just realized this game gives me a kind of deja vu
Anyways, I'm not sure what route we're going for here. But I'm guessing we focus on fighting over sparing since we had a good start with fighting beeboy?

As for my reads...uhh readsss (つω`｡)
Well, I think Hectic is definitely playing drastically different than as Marksman-scum.
I'm still somewhat biased against Tanner so my read on them being scummy might be faulty.

this post made me tilt my head...

the reasoning for fighting is out there even if the conclusion is right. the reads arent actual reads. hectic is a bit of gut based on meta. tanner is ? meta? and thats it? no townreads? was hectic a townread? i almost dunno if scum would make that post because its so... weak. it isnt even fence sitty, its just disengaged.

[Tayl0r Swift]

lavender how would you describe your town and scumgames? do you enjoy playing scum?

[Tayl0r Swift]

am i eligible for the cute animal alliance?

[Tayl0r Swift]

Taylor, do you still feel like Chara is scum? Me/Pooky both seem to agree that their posts on page 5 and their read on Elements in 160 are good.

I think some of their midgame wasn't very notable but when it comes to reads, the two they've really seemed to press are 1) Elements, who has now flipped scum 2) redtea, whose slot is now being replaced a second time after some very lackluster posts by Sujimichi

i mean sujimuchi is probably more likely to be scum. i have kinda weakened my scumread on chara. i do think theres prolly a deepwolf somewhere, but im thinking tanner is more likely scum than chara now.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Can you walk me through how you shifted that way? (Weaker on Chara -> Thinking more on Tanner?)

Tanner-can you talk more about your Puppy vote? I remember liking a lot of their interactions with Elements in hindsight. I also really don't see the point in pushing for a spare from them unless it is exactly Puppy+Chara...which I find really unlikely.

off the cuff, tanner is gut, and chara has done some gamesolvey stuff. im pretty low-effort this game though. sorry.

[Tayl0r Swift]

i still just feel like charas posts are mostly fluff and chara is present in the thread but not present in the scumhunting much. theres just too much fluff.

Can you walk me through how you shifted that way? (Weaker on Chara -> Thinking more on Tanner?)

off the cuff, tanner is gut, and chara has done some gamesolvey stuff. im pretty low-effort this game though. sorry.

These aren't completely contradictory but I'm really trying to get some evidence of legitimate process from you here. How have you decided that Chara is now more gamesolvey? What was the initial cause of your shift-was it your own thinking, the posts I linked, something Chara said recently? This is the process I want to be walked through.

the recent posts, and when you all asked me to go look last time i re-read the iso and started to rethink. thats where im at now, and thats all there really is to say. if you want engagement from me, a wagon on me is probably the way to go. but i cant promise that ill suddenly get good reads. my townhunting is usually pretty good. my scumhunting is usually pretty bad. this is nothing like my scumgame. i prefer playing as scum.

[Tayl0r Swift]

VOTE: sujimiji

collects and displays all the newly earned scumpoints

[Tayl0r Swift]

Kinda admit I've been lurking / coasting myself, so apologies for this next part (esp after I was just pushing spares)

But I don't think the town is full of so many obvtown slots that were out of options? There are a few obvtown slots on the ele wagon and then the rest not

i could go for a puppy wagon here.

[Tayl0r Swift]

puppy is coasting and not engaged. whens the last time you saw a post from puppy that wasnt fluff?

[Tayl0r Swift]

memes, the highest form of art

[Tayl0r Swift]

oh tanner is datisi? interesting. hmm.

[Tayl0r Swift]

yes

[Tayl0r Swift]

im not an alt, but ive already had a decent amount of experience with daddytisi

[Tayl0r Swift]

have you played social deduction before? among us / MU / tos or something?

yes

[Tayl0r Swift]

no

[Tayl0r Swift]

donald trump

[Tayl0r Swift]

dont trust people who only come out at night

[Tayl0r Swift]

also dont trust people who live in caves

[Tayl0r Swift]

which is your favorite teletubby?

[Tayl0r Swift]

dont trust people who only come out at night

also dont trust people who live in caves

hmph (¬ω¬)

except you. you are a delight. but you have cute ears. batman does not.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Right. Sorry, what's your read on Batwoman (i.e. Morning Tweet)?

Also I don't know any of the names of the teletubbies without googling them but if there's a purple one I'd probably go with that

oh

adorable.

and purple is acceptable. its only the second creepiest.

[Tayl0r Swift]

hmmm that readlist basically makes sense but why is puppy so far up?

[Tayl0r Swift]

i think we should give elements the benefit of the doubt here.

[Tayl0r Swift]

krazy are you scum?

[Tayl0r Swift]

john tanner from driver: san francisco, trippy game, do recommend

that game was pretty awful, but so fun

[Tayl0r Swift]

krazy are you scum?

no r u?

ok well im fairly convinced. who is scum then?

[Tayl0r Swift]

who is daddy?

pedit: oh i see

you dont like the new name?

[Tayl0r Swift]

ill carry your torch or whatever

lewd

[Tayl0r Swift]

Who is the person in Prism's avatar?

If you're actually curious about this by the way, it is Molly Rankin, the lead singer/songwriter of Alvvays, as she appeared in their live show at the 2016 CBC Music Festival

and she is way less attractive and talented than i am, and ill fite anyone who disagrees.

[Tayl0r Swift]

puppy and pooky?

[Tayl0r Swift]

puppy is coasting and not engaged. whens the last time you saw a post from puppy that wasnt fluff?

I'm really confused by this read. You've openly admitted to doing the same. Town has a very high chance of winning this game, especially with several confident townreads like it seems Puppy has.

In general what makes you so hard to read this game is you seemed to be openly dart throwing off of gut, being very unashamed about it and generally avoiding explaining your process for how they switch.

isnt it also scummy from me? isnt that why people scumread me largely?

[Tayl0r Swift]

i still see chara as chara. something just feels a bit off there. maybe its a playstyle or personality thing.

[Tayl0r Swift]

puppy seemed scum for it because i feel like puppies should be energetic and overeager. theres not a whole lot to it. ive moved past that read mostly and im kinda leaning towards tanner!scum Chara!chara

i also dont mind being your lunch today. Im not helping much and its definitely a bad idea to leave me for lylo here if the game gets there. im not confident enough in my reads to push them aggressively.

the only issue with me being lunch is that im not sure what you learn from my flip. gotta kill chara somehow tho.

[Tayl0r Swift]

yep, im here.

[Tayl0r Swift]

HURT: tanner

i dont think chara is viable.

[Tayl0r Swift]

659 you're skeptical of Hectic's sudden sparepush. 714 you agree with me and think Hectic is being overly defensive. In 857, you've switched to Hectic being probably town as a goofball and vote Chara instead.

Can I ask what changed here for you?

i dont see scum doubling down that hard on a bad plan. it draws too much attention from the rest of the game, and i think blatantly anti-town play normally comes from town.

[Tayl0r Swift]

659 you're skeptical of Hectic's sudden sparepush. 714 you agree with me and think Hectic is being overly defensive. In 857, you've switched to Hectic being probably town as a goofball and vote Chara instead.

Can I ask what changed here for you?

i dont see scum doubling down that hard on a bad plan. it draws too much attention from the rest of the game, and i think blatantly anti-town play normally comes from town.

Hectic didn't really double down in that timeframe from what I can tell-it had mostly happened well before 714, and he gave it up really quickly in general. He threw in the towel into the 600s.

Can you revisit those 3/4 pages again?

do i have to? i dont want to.

[Tayl0r Swift]

its not over if you lunch me, but youre in a good enough spot that youll be fine. good luck!

tanner and chara.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Why have I been town to you all game by the way, Taylor?

same reason youve been obvtown to everyone else. scum doesnt play like that and id be very impressed if you maintained that level of towniness for that long. its *possilbe* youre scum, but its not plausible really

[Tayl0r Swift]

happy to help

[Tayl0r Swift]

Prism I will make u a deal -- if we flip Krazy and it's a miselim, and then Tayl0r or Hectic suicides, I will wagon whichever one survives

I also might decide to go after Tayl0r regardless D3 anyway

im deeply offended!

*gives an affectionate ear flop anyway*

[Tayl0r Swift]

Prism i just had a bad thought, if Taylor is just

this

apathetic as town and then Hectic flips Chara and we lose the chance to get him. there's nothing that tells me he would have to be Chara over mafia and nothing stopping Taylor from being mafia but she's such a wall i'm nervous.

HURT: Hectic
1752 is so much.

disagree. we lunch either me or tanner or krazy today. or lavender i guess? what happened to lavender? shoot for scum, not for chara, thats a recipe for shooting yourself in the foot. also then you have to lunch me tomorrow which is bad. bad bad bad. stop saying bad things chara.

[Tayl0r Swift]

we lost a post somehow in between my last two

Prism i just had a bad thought, if Taylor is just

this

apathetic as town and then Hectic flips Chara and we lose the chance to get him. there's nothing that tells me he would have to be Chara over mafia and nothing stopping Taylor from being mafia but she's such a wall i'm nervous.

HURT: Hectic
1752 is so much.

??? Hectic is not Chara here, the entire point of Hectic scum is to bus for towncred and he literally dies immediately as Chara without getting to use it

and i am also not chara... for obvious reasons. and i only work as scum with hectic. ergo i am not scum

[Tayl0r Swift]

Can I ask you why you think it's Krazy over Tayl0r, first?

Also why were you so persuaded by the posts and not like, anything else before?

i'm not shooting for Chara, i'm shooting for the player i think is more likely scum than you. because you refuse to not be null and it's impossible for me to tell if you're apathetic town or scum who's fine to end it here.

pedit: okay, fair. i suppose it's unlikely for a scum Hectic to be Chara, i was just siezed by scum-Hectic fervor when i read you calling his earlygame Pooky push too-objective and then Hectic responded by casing Elements. and i feel more strongly about Hectic in this moment of fervor than other slots.

if i were scum fine to end it id concede. if i were scum trying to lurk it out: lol. if i were scum otherwise, id be putting up a fight and making some garbage up.

being engaged with a game is null, but being apathetic is town-indicative for me

[Tayl0r Swift]

hectoc is town

[Tayl0r Swift]

a few key differences between that game and this one:

1) im not engaged with this one, or wasnt until like 8 hours ago. im always engaged as scum, but not always as town.
2) theres an active and loud town leader, and to me if theres an active and loud town leader all reads revolve around that person and whether you follow the leader or not. i dont do well in an environment like this game where prism is dictating everything.
3) people there engaged with me. here people ignored me for like 65 pages. if you want me to play you sometimes need to put some pressure on me.

saying this game isnt like my n=1 towngames is a weak argument. but then to imply it is like my n=0 scumgames is bullshit and you know it. and if you just read my iso in the last few hours i think i pretty clearly towntold.

[Tayl0r Swift]

heres a question for everyone: why is prism alive?

(prism, your input is welcome on this)

[Tayl0r Swift]

Hey Taylor, I'm still really curious about making your Tanner/Chara reads more accessible to us, but can you walk us through the Sujimichi vote and why you chose not to revote it with the hurt tag?

i didnt revote because i didnt realize the first one didnt count

[Tayl0r Swift]

Well okay -- I thought I was doing okay at giving opinions on other slots. Not as much as I could, cause the odds of this game ending quick without my intervention are really high and I'm somewhat of a busy bat recently

If I were Chara I'd probably work double time in order to somehow conceivably make my partner seem like town. Not really sure how I'd go about that, it'd probably depend on the player. One prerequisite would be that I need to be very active, because it'd be weird if I singled out one person.

See there's the lame way to play Chara rn where you just peace out and stop talking, then there's the risk-taking way where you try to help your partner by going tryhard and somehow spewing them as town. Okay, when i put it like that though maybe I wouldn't do that and I'd just be too scared to do so and I'd just eat the suicide. After all there's probably no way I could somehow "townspew" a partner through 4-5 miselims post-mortem.

Why am I speculating about myself being Chara again?

Oh yeah. You're scumreading me. And I'm on ur wagon just chilling out cause I don't need towncred since I would suicide. EHhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess I can buy you thinking that as town. But it's not me and honestly the only scum on ur wagon I'd entertain is Tayl0r

morning how is it that after i finally put in effort and towntold youre now finally suspecting me?

i think theres no way pooky hectic morning or prism are scum. PoE leaves inactives, chara, tanner basically. puppy maybe too. not sure about puppy.

does that help explain my reads?

[Tayl0r Swift]

Tayl0r why do you have tweet as hard town?

because im the cop

[Tayl0r Swift]

HURT: Taylor

I am not as confident in this anymore as I would like to be. However, even if it is wrong I suspect Krazy will also be town. I want blood, and between the two I think this has a much better chance.

this is a bad vote

[Tayl0r Swift]

why does no one think lavender is scum here?

[Tayl0r Swift]

nah hectic and MT are both town

[Tayl0r Swift]

Thank u tayl0r

the lack of emojis is concerning in this post.

[Tayl0r Swift]

and why would i shoot catboi who i had been expressing a scumread of?

[Tayl0r Swift]

Like here's some of what catboi was saying about redtea-

Strongly feel that redtea is town

review of redtea shows he moves his vote very little as town, true of his recent game and our older games so I'm not as worried about that.

redtea I still think is town although I wish he'd be more proactive.

town: tanner, prism, chara, redtea

I don't see why redtea-scum would kill catboi given how much catboi thinks redtea is town?

the kill makes more sense with taylor being baddie.

Fair fair fair

If redtea is Chara I feel that would matter somewhat less. Still -- I was expecting Prism to die, not catboi! There must have been a purpose, unless maybe I was reading the game poorly. Catboi was very consensused town, I suppose. But yeah you do get the feeling they go somewhere else

I suppose.... if Redtea is scum, their partner would have had much more agency in the kill, since redtea replaced during the night phase. They might not have been thinking too much about it and just went with the most obvtown player they saw.

But that would somewhat imply a tayl0r / lavender partner who isn't super invested. And of course catboi scumread tayl0r hard

>-> i just wish we were past this day. this is becoming a whole ordeal, isnt it?

is this true? isnt the reverse more true, that i scumread catboi?

hmm... id really expect morning to reciprocate my firm townread here, but instead she is getting more and more insistent on pushing me as pressure grows on her.

[Tayl0r Swift]

For me, I'm trying to strike a balance between interrogating your reads without being a nuisance asking to be towncased. The way you're describing this-setting you up/not actually interested in what you are-makes me think that you expect me to have fully interrogated you further if I really found it sketchy. I immediately stated exactly what my issue was, and instead of correcting it, being like "yeah w/e", or expounding on it you played the offended/indignant card. This bothered me - I think it's really clear that the concrete reasons you listed are ??? applied to me - and has made me question if the offense is genuine. This interests me a lot more than a quotewall of why the reads I've given are town.

There's a scum motivation early to AtE to drop a pressure from your bad reads, but the only reason I see why you would double down on this as scum is feeling that you have to for appearances (Vote on Tayl0r if I'm setting you up would be pretty ???)

Can you lay out more explicitly why my approach here is not town/how exactly my approach is not trying to figure out your alignment?

feels like you're trying to ding me no matter what I say when I was trying to explain a gutread. and when I'm trying to explain myself over and over to someone I think is town and keep getting shot down it means I'm probably just wrong about that person

It's also just bizarre that I've made my stance clear, asked no questions beyond a rhetorical one hoping you'd understand why I was/am skeptical and we could leave it at that, only for you to get more defensive+accusatory in a spiraling cycle. I'm not setting you up by doing this. Like maybe I'm intentionally baiting you into being defensive but I have repeatedly tried to disagree and call it a day.

It doesn't feel like the kind of thing you go "okay agree to disagree" on unless you're just shelving it to use as ammo later down the line

[Tayl0r Swift]

so heres where im at. there are too many townreads, and the scumreads are weak. town has no clear direction which suggests all the directions town is going are fine with scum. except maybe theres consistent momentum towards me, which suggests that maybe theres town pushing it. the only person really consistently pushing me is prism, despite what prism would have us believe.

what are the odds that prism is actually scum here? worth considering?

[Tayl0r Swift]

its really odd that prism has made no effort to engage with my current thoughts or reads, and is still just waiting for me to explain things i said i didnt have a good explanation for 40 pages ago.

[Tayl0r Swift]

so heres where im at. there are too many townreads, and the scumreads are weak. town has no clear direction which suggests all the directions town is going are fine with scum. except maybe theres consistent momentum towards me, which suggests that maybe theres *scum* pushing it. the only person really consistently pushing me is prism, despite what prism would have us believe.

what are the odds that prism is actually scum here? worth considering?

whoops

[Tayl0r Swift]

what are your current thoughts/reads? who do you think we should eliminate today?

lavender or tanner. prism would be spicy but im not sure if im just tinfoil hatting or seeing things clearly

[Tayl0r Swift]

I agree, I'm willing to continue to give her the benefit of the doubt, but it's very clear that for whatever reason, if she is town, I have failed to communicate clearly.

It's time to give someone else a turn.

youre going to give me the benefit of the doubt and say that im town? but still vote me? and rather than pushing something else youre going to just do nothing?

[Tayl0r Swift]

nah hectic and MT are both town

could you expand on this? what's your level of confidence in hectic town?

hectic town is more confident. hectic did some stuff day 1 that scum wouldnt do. early on pushing and continuing to push the spare argument.

[Tayl0r Swift]

apparently hectic and morning can only be scum with me, which if true clears both of them, but idk if thats good reasoning because a) preflip associatives, and b)the other scum is chara so things might be different

[Tayl0r Swift]

lavender or tanner.

cool we are getting somewhere yes

why tanner?

i said the same thing like 30 pages ago though

[Tayl0r Swift]

tanner doesnt feel like datisi. it could be the alt, datisi said as much. but theres definitely something off. theres none of the energy or solving you see from datisi

[Tayl0r Swift]

tlav?

[Tayl0r Swift]

i buy it. and lavender is a much better lunch than me either way at this point right?

[Tayl0r Swift]

ok, ok, i know i got flamed for this last time, but if we have so many strong townreads and trouble with the fight, there is another game mechanic that lets us vote for strong townreads instead that mathematically would be pretty good in this situation and

hang on, my point is being intercepted by someone throwing rotten tomatoes. a big hooked can is coming from stage left. why is it grabbing me by the waist?

today we have to fight so we kill chara. sparing from there is an option, in theory.

[Tayl0r Swift]

It was to Puppy but I'm with you (Tanner) as far as just wanting blood and going in circles.

P-Edit: I think Lavender is in between Tayl0r/Krazy. They're not an awful vote, they have a chance of being scum but just picturing them flipping town-and we learn basically nothing from it, only from the Chara flip- is soulsucking. I'm also a bit blinded by thinking they're unlikely to be with Hectic, but that's putting the cart before the horse

to be fair the only thing you learn from my flip is that youre a very silly girl

[Tayl0r Swift]

Would love to hear more of the town Taylor case. No one has been able to persuade me so far though so maybe I'm just being stubborn.

maybe?

[Tayl0r Swift]

HURT: lavender

not sure if i was already doing that, but i should be

[Tayl0r Swift]

HURT: Chara

interesting

[Tayl0r Swift]

hi i have some helpful self-meta:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=84280

this is now over. i was town and disengaged at first but then as the game went on i got more and more engaged and contributed at the end. see if you cant draw a tight parallel between my play there and here.

[Tayl0r Swift]

1977 - how is taylor not evil here????

what are your current thoughts/reads? who do you think we should eliminate today?

lavender or tanner. prism would be spicy but im not sure if im just tinfoil hatting or seeing things clearly

where did chara go? why are you now considering lavender? why am i scum other than ~*gut*~?

tanner doesnt feel like datisi. it could be the alt, datisi said as much. but theres definitely something off. theres none of the energy or solving you see from datisi

...? ??? ? ?? ?
you said you're not an alt, right? have you been reading my games or something? because i'm pretty sure we have literally never played together?

now i'm scum with lavender
you cannot be serious

Her partner could be a lot of ppl, but didnt Tanner try to swap the wagon off Elements to Lavender D1? Am I misremembering? I swear someone wanted us to swap to Lav but idk who.

it was me and catboi.

pedit: sure, lemme dig it up real quick.

im not an alt, i looked up a couple of your games. im not doing associatives. i just think youre currently the most likely to be scum, and lavender prolly too. chara is tinfoilhat deepwolf. but probably town at this point. i think its just paranoia thats making me suspect chara and prism, theyre like... just town.

[Tayl0r Swift]

isnt not liking the game scum indicative for datisi? that might be an unfair argument, but if its true its true.

[Tayl0r Swift]

TBH i don't want to fight lavender right now. i might be talked into this depending on what prism / chara want, but at the moment im not ready. call it gut feeling

if lavender or puppy flip chara

[Tayl0r Swift]

Hmm, maybe he's the cop? :3

wrong, im the cop

[Tayl0r Swift]

gimme the three line elevator pitch

taylor
is
cute

[Tayl0r Swift]

i dont like that youre associating me with the creepy emoji

[Tayl0r Swift]

For the record, I would be perfectly happy to flop your ears

no. thats my job. you stay away from her ears.

[Tayl0r Swift]

i want to ensure that no one flops morning's ears for the remainder of the game as punishment for mislunching me when all i was doing was flopping her ears.

[Tayl0r Swift]

heres an idea: we are having a lot of difficulty identifying scum. why not just flip a slot that needs sorting and if its scum we win and if its town chara dies and we sort the slot. what slot gives us the most info from a flip? prolly not lavender. maybe myself? maybe tanner. would my flipping green be helpful in resolving other slots?

[Tayl0r Swift]

Taylor, from what I could tell earlier your reads are something like:

Hard town
=====
Hectic
Prism
Morning Tweet
Pooky

Unsure
======
Puppy
Lavender
Krazy

Scum/scumleans
======
Chara
Tanner

I'm curious as to what you think about the push on Tanner and who you think is singularly most likely to flip scum atm

i dont know! like... im really waffling on tanner. and i think id move chara up to townleans because chara kinda just has to be town here? and krazy is probably town? so then lavender has to move down?
it would really be easier if you just lunched me. then i wouldnt have to worry about it any more.

[Tayl0r Swift]

lavender is probably the most likely to flip scum, but... lavender is kinda a hard null? its more just that being a hard null on page 95 probably means you havent been doing much, which is scum indicative.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Okay, I think we're getting somewhere-when you say Chara "has to be town here", what do you mean?

because the only reason chara is scum is tin-foily, and it just doesnt hold up. chara has been pretty townie most of the game. chara has been absent recently, but said something about why iirc.

[Tayl0r Swift]

I DONT KNOW STOP ASKING ME AHHH

[Tayl0r Swift]

FWIW I'm pretty sure I'm going on Taylor too, I'm more just bothered in that I know Hectic/Tayl0r isn't right.

I'm wrong on one of Hectic/Taylor. I just don't know which. If Tayl0r is scum, it might not matter.

Of all the town, Chara is the only one that isn't extremely town for their votes and progressions, but more for their extremely genuine reactions to events. Their reaction to me was super good, and I put them at locktown for it...but once again every single player in this game is town.

Which leaves me again wondering if they're the Bodhi to my Johnny Utah

do you think theres definitely scum in me and hectic?

[Tayl0r Swift]

I'm honoured, you're too kind to me, Pooky

this reads as a bit too genuine to me. as though hectic is actually a deepwolf.

you all might not know me well enough to know this, but the quotes morning picked out are me towntelling, and im actually a bit disappointed that i made it so obvious. ironically, despite it being obvious none of you know me well enough to know that im towntelling there. except maybe hectic. and hectic didnt pick up on it.

[Tayl0r Swift]

do you think theres definitely scum in me and hectic?

I would be surprised if there wasn't. The teams in my head are like Hectic/Chara, Tayl0r/Chara, and then a jumble of "I am so disgustingly wrong on this game that I can never play on this account again, I am a complete disgrace" random pairings like Pooky+? or Tanner+? or something that I have not exactly spent time considering

ok but assume for a moment that im town. what does that mean? who are the scum then? if i cant be scum with hectic then the only solve is me and chara. but if im town, then whats the solve?

[Tayl0r Swift]

hectic's defense of himself is that i can only be scum with him, and that im town, therefore he must also be town. but the fact that i can only be scum with him (which you might contest) says nothing about whether he can be scum with other people. but it does explain why hectic is so insistent on defending me.

[Tayl0r Swift]

usually hectic is extremely paranoid about me and kinda assumes im scum. the fact that hes not doing that here means hes probably scum

[Tayl0r Swift]

HURT: hectic

[Tayl0r Swift]

you all might not know me well enough to know this, but the quotes morning picked out are me towntelling

elaborate

i mean its not a logical thing, i cant prove it. im also decently good at faking those things as scum. but i know myself and thats me towntelling. and i think hectic might know it too. i think hectic has been in all my games onsite and has a pretty good feel for me. except hes usually very paranoid about me being scum.

[Tayl0r Swift]

hectic's defense of himself is that i can only be scum with him, and that im town, therefore he must also be town. but the fact that i can only be scum with him (which you might contest) says nothing about whether he can be scum with other people. but it does explain why hectic is so insistent on defending me.

Wouldn't you flipping town help Hectic!scum then?

yes, but he has to be defending me the whole way, so he can say "told you, we're both town!"

[Tayl0r Swift]

but when i flip town dont take that as an exoneration of hectic

[Tayl0r Swift]

do you know how sometimes in your last few moments before you die, you get a strange sense of clarity about the world?

[Tayl0r Swift]

morning youre also better at identifying town!me than you realize.

ok im ready to die now. good luck!

[Tayl0r Swift]

you all might not know me well enough to know this, but the quotes morning picked out are me towntelling

elaborate

i mean its not a logical thing, i cant prove it. im also decently good at faking those things as scum. but i know myself and thats me towntelling. and i think hectic might know it too. i think hectic has been in all my games onsite and has a pretty good feel for me. except hes usually very paranoid about me being scum.

i think im gonna take this a step further: hasnt hectic been in every game everyones been in?

Spoiler:

im actually a hectic alt

[Tayl0r Swift]

VOTE: tayl0r

were you scum?

no but thats not a real vote

[Tayl0r Swift]

It's a one line question that slightly shades another slot. I'm confused how it's AI for you

exactly. most of my alignment revealing posts are NAI.

[Tayl0r Swift]

those just arent posts scum!me naturally makes

[Tayl0r Swift]

Why do you feel so strongly that Hectic is town, Taylor?

im literally voting to hurt hectic and think hectic is scum

[Tayl0r Swift]

Okay, so I'm with you on the Hectic scumtheory, especially if you're town. Can you explain why you townread them so strongly before?

haha, what do you think the answer to that will be

it was mostly the way hectic interacted directly with me. but now i think i was being silly. hectic interacted with me the way other people do. but hectic is normally super paranoid of me. and some of his logic was really strange, and i couldnt follow it. i just went along with it because i was under fire and he said i was town (i did the same thing in Menagerie where Loki thought he had logic that cleared me and found the scum, and i went along with it beacuse whether his logic was right the conclusion was good for town!me and therefore for town). i assumed that hectic was saying we couldnt be paired with anyone else, but he specifically said that i couldnt be paired with anyone else leaving us to assume that he was town if i was, which is a) not the case and b) not even what he said.

[Tayl0r Swift]

hmmm that was more of an answer than i thought id have

[Tayl0r Swift]

another reason hectic is probably scum is suddenly the game makes sense if hectic is scum. i dont feel lost anymore.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? What other parts of the game does it cast light on for you?

its not like hectic being scum suddenly solves the game. its just that there was something wrong with the way i was looking at the game. i was stuck and couldnt really get my feet set. this let me do that. now i can probably start evaluating properly. i mean if the solve is hectic and chara ill feel pretty good about myself, but im not willing to bet on it being chara at this point, while im definitely willing to bet that hectic is scum.

[Tayl0r Swift]

another reason hectic is probably scum is suddenly the game makes sense if hectic is scum. i dont feel lost anymore.

also curious on an expansion on this

Tanner getting pushed here by town is a godsend from scum's POV. Their life gets significantly harder the longer he lives because he's noticeably a very strong player. This is 100% worth capitalizing on.

I've whiteknighted your slot so hard that it wasn't happening, and Taylor is dead in the water from Hectic's POV. No need to even push her himself.

prism explains what it means for the game overall pretty well too

[Tayl0r Swift]

if it helps i think my reads are largely tonal, and it was probably tonal stuff that pinged me about prism.

[Tayl0r Swift]

It would be the height of Poetry if Hectic made Isis-scum kill me in his game and then Isis made Hectic-scum kill me in her game. We know Hectic and Isis are the best of friends so this is a distinct possibility.

you were scum in the other game, so doesnt that imply that youre scum here?

[Tayl0r Swift]

theres really no point in a thorough catchup. just hurt hetic and win.

[Tayl0r Swift]

I think I'll need to reread Hectic again and make the call. But I'll take some time to relax and loosen up a bit, rather than take impulsive action in response to my own internal furor.

this is a good idea. please come back when you're ready and more confident. i know im excited to finally end the day, i think everyone else is, but at this point i would rather have you at your top than rush. i dont want to push forever on my scumreads if you're not seeing the same thing, and i'd rather know taht wen you're at your best. we've waited this long and we should want to get it right.

uhhhh i hate this post. "yes go take your time and then come back and make the decision to lunch somebody that isnt me because youve said that rereading will lead you to that conclusion. im not gonna do any solving, but i really want you to lunch this person correctly!"

[Tayl0r Swift]

Krazy is probably the regular wolf who would much rather have me dead than Lav/Tayl0r now since he knows I still scumread his slot.

There's barely any progression there.

same for puppy. i think i want puppy today. flashwagon anyone?

[Tayl0r Swift]

puppy why dont you do some solving instead of fluff and IIoA and just general active lurking?

[Tayl0r Swift]

Krazy is scummmm voting me out after initially saying I was IC levels of obvtown and then saying he still liked me as town repeatedly, and then voting me because "info" only after I clarified that his slot was still at the bottom of my reaslist, and that I'm just not pushing him today because he isn't ChAra.

I am faced with two potential compromises
one of those compromises is on the player that has pushed me as scum the entire day
the other is on the player that was one of the first to warm up and work with me

if both are town, which is a possibility, it's still not hard to decide which one to compromise on

the town response would have been to come back and try to push tanner with me again, you trying to spin a compromise as scummy is not a good look

i dont think im either one of those compromises?

[Tayl0r Swift]

YES BUT IT'S INOPTIMAL TODAY, SO... NO ¥_¥

??? who do you even want anymore

I don't want him today because he probably isn't ChAra. I really want him tomorrow now.

Today...Lavender of Tayl0r/Lav.

Of everyone? Launchy or Pooky, but that's obviously not happening.

i agree with all of this. im pretty sure i was wrong about hectic. id rather lunch myself than him

[Tayl0r Swift]

ok all caught up. i still dont mind it being me today, but obviously i prefer pretty much anyone else since theres at least some chance of hitting scum.

[Tayl0r Swift]

ok all caught up. i still dont mind it being me today, but obviously i prefer pretty much anyone else since theres at least some chance of hitting scum.

What happened to you asking to be eliminated earlier? You were like asking for it

it was mostly accepting the inevitable. asking for it is more because i think my flip is pretty useful, and because then i dont have to worry about solving in this game where i felt super stuck. i feel less stuck now, so i dont want to die as much. but i still dont mind.

[Tayl0r Swift]

i want you, too

[Tayl0r Swift]

I want Taylor.

this wasnt for me?

[Tayl0r Swift]

I really hate making this choice-My reads have been wrong all day, something is likely wrong, and I feel like someone has completely beaten me, even though I've gone this far. It's a harsh feeling.

But if I'm being given a shot to win the game, I need to take it. I think it's best used on Taylor, and I'm using it on Taylor. And I'm sorry and will take full responsibility if it's wrong.

i forgive you.

[Tayl0r Swift]

this is on me. but i still feel like town should win this. especially if they lunch puppy.

[Tayl0r Swift]

In case Taylor's good here's my very preliminary conditional chara flip chart thingamajig.

It's super paranoid and stupid so just putting it out there in case I die tonight >.>

i dont like this post. why would you die tonight?

[Tayl0r Swift]

i dont like this post. why would you die tonight?

might get killed - you never know!

maybe if youre Chara

[Tayl0r Swift]

heh because i didnt earn a townread here. until recently but i think it was too late. and even though i now have reads and stuff, im not sure enough, this game is a mess and im part of the reason why. so me dying is whatever. i dont have enough of a case to convince even myself that i shouldnt be the lunch.

[Tayl0r Swift]

why am i not possible with pooky or taylor, out of curiosity?

[Tayl0r Swift]

I had Tayl0r/Morning Likely but not Chara/Tayl0r? What was I on?

If we were partners, tayl0r wouldn't have had to flop my ears in the main thread

she'd just do it in the scum thread as much as she pleases

yeah but i might do it in public anyway so a) people wouldnt think you were being neglected and b) to show off that i have access to those ears!!!

[Tayl0r Swift]

id prefer lav :///

[Tayl0r Swift]

HURT: lavender

i probably wont be on until deadline, but i

proxy my vote over to prism as needed

.

[Tayl0r Swift]

let chara take the wheel

[Tayl0r Swift]

you are killing me

i dont have that power

[Tayl0r Swift]