Mini Theme 2165: MafiaSunny (Complete!)

[duppin]

alright hello everyone, i kind of read up on this game initially when the first replacement request went up but i need to catch up fully so i need like 30 minutes or so.
however id really appreciate if people would ask me questions as it helps me get into the game

[duppin]

alright hello everyone, i kind of read up on this game initially when the first replacement request went up but i need to catch up fully so i need like 30 minutes or so.
however id really appreciate if people would ask me questions as it helps me get into the game

Hi duppin! A few questions to get u started:
What do u think of UT's hammer and now claim to be tracker?

well reck kind of confirmed his claim, but i also believe UT is town because i dont really see any reason for him to make that claim as scum as i cant imagine we would be in mylo. i suppose there is a possibility he would be lying about seeing reck visiting 2 players but thats a bit too wifomy for my taste, so yeah i believe his claim and i believe he is town.

What do you think about the tn wagon?

i mean i thought the votes themselves were pretty easy to justify since tn pretty much said he didn't care and this does bother me because seeing as i know my slot is town i think it is worth noting that both of the wagons yesterday were on town, however there was also a wagon on you earlier that day. i am trying to go over the vote progression at the moment and will get back to this later.
i will say i believe there is at least 1 scum on tn's wagon

What do you think about the chkflip wagon?

i dont really have any thoughts on that at the moment to be completely honest. The only thing I did note was that Reck seemed to push the idea that the wagon was towndriven

What do you think about ur predecessor?

I don't think it makes sense for me to evaluate my predecessor to be honest, but if you really want me to I can

Bonus question:
What do you think about my slot?

hm thats a good question actually. One thing I will say is that the votes on you yesterday are very similar to the votes on the tn lynch.
To clarify at one point the wagons were tied up:

Noraa [X-2] xRECKONERx, Untrod Tripod, tn5421, AGar
tn5421 [X-2] Ythan, Gamma Emerald, Noraa, brighteningskies

And this is the lynch:
tn5421 [OUT] Ythan, Noraa, brighteningskies, VP Baltar, xRECKONERx, Untrod Tripod

ill get back to this in a moment

[duppin]

Someone prevented my action from resolving on Reck n1. If it had he would know my role. I think the most likely explanation is that Reck is lying scum and blocked me n1 right after I outed myself as not vanilla.

Thoughts?

Reck said he blocked UT n1. That was a bit ~fishy~ cuz it was after UT said he got blocked n1. However I think we just gotta wait and see if a jailkeeper cc's.
But then also ... UT told me there could be two jailkeepers bc the formats fucked up or something

I believe UT's claim so I believe reck is most likely scum, but regarding this i either believe UT is telling the truth about blocking or he believes he is going to get lynched today no matter what and is trying to reveal the roleblocker.

I just cant see a world where UT does this as scum unless he loves the wifom. I suppose it is a possibility he is just reaction testing as well but meh

[duppin]

apologise for potential wall of text,
Before I start talking about votes I will say that my top towns are UT (for his claim) and VP. I thought the way VP evaluated tn near the end was extremely townie.
I also have a slight townread on Gamma Emerald actually, although it's not super strong.

Anyway, to get back to the VCA the most interesting things to me were these:

Day 1 lynch:

chkflip

[OUT] xRECKONERx,

VP Baltar

, Untrod Tripod, Ythan, Gamma Emerald,

Annie Edison

, Haschel Cedricson

Day 2 tie

Noraa [X-2]

xRECKONERx, Untrod Tripod,

tn5421

,

AGar

tn5421

[X-2] Ythan, Gamma Emerald, Noraa, brighteningskies

Then a wagon formed at my slot which resulted in this:

Noraa [X-5]

tn

,

AGar

tn5421 [X-3]

Ythan, Noraa, brighteningskies

Dr. pepper [X-1]

xRECKONERx, VP, Untrod Tripod, Gamma Emerald,

tn5421

And well then it resulted in a tn lynch:

tn5421

[OUT] Ythan, Noraa, brighteningskies, VP Baltar, xRECKONERx, Untrod Tripod

So I find it extremely unlikely there is no scum on chkflips wagon, sure it is possible but I sincerely doubt it.
Which means at least 1 scum between Reck, VP, UT, Ythan, Gamma and Haschel.

I also believe there is at least 1 scum on tn's wagon.
Which means at least 1 scum between Ythan, Noora, brighteningskies, VP, Reck, UT.

As I said I have strong townreads on VP and UT. I also have a slight TR on Gamma. So from my point of view there is at least one scum between Reck/Ythan/Haschel and at least one between Ythan/Noraa/brighteningskies/Reck.

I believe Reck is (unless UT is reaction testing) scum. I also find brighteningskies suspicious, play is a bit too passive and seems to have no issue jumping from wagon to wagon. I think noora could be scum based on votes but for that to be the case I believe she was bussed.

[duppin]

It's just VCA Noraa, you can draw your own conclusion. I clearly stated who I think he is town and who I think he most likely to be scum.

[duppin]

Anyway @brighteningskies could you please try to go over your votes yesterday?

[duppin]

Noraa [X-2]

xRECKONERx, Untrod Tripod,

tn5421

,

AGar

The Noraa was bussed by her scum partners theory isn't sitting well with me. Ur trying to tell me my scum partners were in {xRECKONERx, Untrod Tripod, tn5421, AGar}

Actually no that is not what I said. tn and agar are both confirmed town and I believe UT is town as well. Which means Reck could have bussed if he is scum. brighteningskies also voted on you yesterday but swapped their vote to tn shortly after.

[duppin]

are you claiming that this happened n1 or n2 haschel?

[duppin]

things i know to be true:

1. ut isnt lying about being a tracker. could be town or scum tracker.
2. haschel seems to be able to confirm ythan's role as giving masks? could be town or scum though
3. vpb is confirmed town unless haschel is going for some kinda mega big dick scum play w/ his partner (@vpb- u know HOW haschel confirmed you as town then?)
4. there is a 2nd manipulation role in addition to the town bus driver

if UT is scum then 4 isnt necessarily true though, but i think that is very unlikely

[duppin]

i mean it seems insane for him to make that up as scum, unless he actually tracked me and thought he could nail me to the wall as visiting the dead person to cover for a buddy, still dont know why make up the second part about me visting ythan then

i concur, i just cant see this being a scum play.
issue is logic tells me that makes you scum, but i actually quite like your reaction to all of this so i will at least accept there is a chance there could be a role modifying your night actions especially since your roleblocking does seem to be confirmed at least for n1.

could you explain the reasoning behind your night targets?

[duppin]

i mean i cant see how we cant lynch reck today, the only thing i will say though is that he does feel rathe genuine to me.

but id for us to focus on other stuff before ending the day though. personally i'd be up for claiming but i kind of want another player to claim first for a specific reason but ultimately id be okay with claiming before him.
I still believe brighteningskies is very likely to be scum so I really need to hear from them as well

[duppin]

stop using lynch

oh i actually was not aware, i apologise

[duppin]

we dont have to massclaim for me to claim by the way, but if i am to claim id prefer for Gamma to claim first. I understand this might make my claim less trustworthy but there is a very specific reason id prefer to do it in that order

[duppin]

my claim has absolutely nothing to do with reck, but im still perfectly fine with claiming if need be

[duppin]

just to make it clear i am not pushing for mass claim, i am only saying that i would be okay with claiming myself.

to answer your question there is a chance but i do think it is rather unlikely.

[duppin]

oh that was meant for VP by the way

[duppin]

noora are you saying that we should not lynch reck today but instead lynch within a limpool with yourself in it?

[duppin]

there is a difference between evaluating a world where reck is town and then arguing for not yeeting him today. we have to lim him

[duppin]

i just realised i used lynch again before, sorry i dont recall this being a thing when i played here before so just getting used it

[duppin]

Noraa it might sound town to you but I disagree about it being a town mindset. If you are town then I dont think it makes sense for you to be willing to risk yourself getting lynched over an unknown and especially not in this scenario

[duppin]

yeah it makes sense, im not a native speaker so never really thought about it before but i definitely support it

[duppin]

skies I think my main concern regarding your vote hopping is that to me it felt like you were trying to justify all of your votes rather than trying to figure out the alignment of the slots. I think that is more likely to come from a scum mindset.
There is a I suppose lack of direction from you, you never questioned any of the wagons but just accepted them since they were the leading wagons. I don't think you have been very proactive this game at all, do you disagree with that?

Everyone knows who we are yeeting today, but if we ignore his slot for now do you have any scum reads at the moment?

[duppin]

VP for the record you do confirm that you tried to visit reck n1 right?

[duppin]

Okay good, that makes me believe that the busdriver claim (reck>herschel) is probably true, in which case we know that at least Ythan tried to visit reck n1 as well. Herschel claims he targeted him as well but no way to really confirm that.
Point is though if reck does flip scum then we we know that Ythan tried to visit him n1. I mean I still don't know exactly what Ythan is claiming to be but just wondering whether it would make sense for him to visit a partner in that case. I'm leaning more towards it not making sense at this point but I don't know.

[duppin]

you know what else might explain Reck not knowing who he targeted N1

if it's a situation like in a scum PT people are submitting actions for the whole scum team and Reck didn't realize that the final version of the scum action plan wasn't the one he thought it was

I also want to understand something else:

VP targets Reck with (presumably a friendly neighbor)
I target Reck with a track
Ythan targets Reck with what I assume is a fruit vendor
Reck blocks me
Annie swaps Haschel and Reck

is this what the claims are?

Herschel claims he targeted reck n1 as well

[duppin]

VP > reck (confirmed town info)
Ythan > reck (the mask item?)
haschel > reck (no idea, but he said he knew he targeted himself)

annie > swap reck with haschel

[duppin]

alright so VP and ythan are confirmed town, i am pretty confident that Gamma is town.
For some reason I thought haschel would be mechanically cleared if reck flipped red but i realised that wasnt.

pretty sure its just noora and skies at this point though

[duppin]

yea you are, UT confirmed reck visited you last night

[duppin]

alright so VP and ythan are confirmed town, i am pretty confident that Gamma is town.
For some reason I thought haschel would be mechanically cleared if reck flipped red but i realised that wasnt.

pretty sure its just noora and skies at this point though

Yeah, I think we basically lim those two and then if the game is still going, Haschel.

Obviously you're still outside the realm of confirmed too duppin.

Why do you read gamma as town here? He's still technically in the pool as well. More curious than anything

well actually i have to admit that i am not really trying to evaluate Gamma's play at all, my read is based on nothing but my night results and while they do not fully confirm him as town i am very inclined to believe it is the case

[duppin]

I suppose i might as well just claim as i am not sure sitting on my claim really matters. I also don't really think it matters whether me or gamma claims first at this point because if he is scum then he should be able to conclude what my read on him is related to i think

i am a motion detector:

n1: ythan - motion detected
n2: gamma - no motion
n3: gamma - no motion

so initially thought gamma was more likely to be town for not doing anything n2 but after him not doing anything n3 either I feel pretty confident about him being town actually.
I don't want to go too wifom on this, but in my opinion i just think it seems logical for mafia to use gamma as the kill after reck flipped assuming one of skies and noora is the other mafia given they were obvious tpr targets.
the only plausibile possibility i can really see if haschel is scum and they used him to do the kill instead i guess, but yeah only possible teammate i can really see for Gamma is haschel but I honestly just think Gamma is town

[duppin]

What's your role name then Dup?

my role is town motion detector

[duppin]

What's your role name then Dup?

my role is town motion detector

That is a very bad answer double check and get back to me quick.

i honestly have no idea what you are referring to

i am sewer sunny if that is what you mean? but my role is motion detector

[duppin]

Also, wouldn't it have made sense to not claim now and get a guaranteed result on Gamma after we yeet noraa into the sun?

hm i suppose but id need to tell everyone not to visit him either to not mess with my result in that case in which case scum might just do that and lets assume they can still multitask so if gamma is town that wouldnt be ideal

[duppin]

Huh.

I kind of want to claim now because I can't decide if my role makes duppin's claim to be more or less likely.

I am really curious about this now actually

[duppin]

i would prefer to lim skies first i think

[duppin]

I have a really difficult time believing a doc would not protect UT last night no matter how they try to spin it, i also based on the setup knowledge we have that a doc does seem a bit unlikely and i think skies play has been scummy. I would prefer limming them today

[duppin]

oh right, vp and ythan you can hammer whoever now

VOTE: brighteningskies

[duppin]

We have time. No rush. Let's hear skies' reply to intent and gamma's reply to the whole mass claiming thing. Then it'll be a good somewhat productive day for town and hopefully skies is scum otherwise we'll have one hell of a time tmrw.

I'd also like to hear something - anything from duppin to show that he is in fact alive...

okay this is a weird post? It comes across as you wanting to appear pro town.

if you want to "hear something" then you ought to ask me

it's fairly obvious I have already shared all i have to share. my "fear" is a team of Gamma and Haschel as I believe haschel is the only real possible teammate for Gamma from my point of view, i think it is more likely that the team is just skies and you though. There is a possibility that you are town but i think it is very unlikely. I am very confident skies is scum though so if they flip town that would really mess with my reads
i already said all of this though and i have nothing more to add, its really just up to ythan and vp to hammer someone

[duppin]

duppin

- Find myself nodding when duppin talks, but the voting record isn't great. It also seems possible that one of him and Haschel is lying about their role.

unless you believe the team is exactly me and Gamma then my role is pretty much confirmed however my alignment isn't. I suppose it's technically possible for me to be some kind of rolecop then it would be really risky for me to randomly guess that no one visited Gamma for two nights in a row either

as for the voting record, are you referring to my preds? because i dont think votes yesterday meant anything as it was obvious who we were going to lim

[duppin]

why would scum not kill VP? i cant really come up with a good explanation for them doing it. I have a couple of theories but it's so much WIFOM im not sure it would even be worth it to discuss, but not killing just seems like such a strange decision

[duppin]

I currently am more comfortable voting gamma as I'm pretty sure the solve isnt duppin/haschel. But my guess for gammas partner is probably duppin bc I remember duppin claimed he targeted gamma two days in a row. And I'm sorry but like ... why tf? Like I could understand targeting Ythan(for his small amounts of sheeping early in the game) or targeting me(for my at the time, classified as "bad accusations" against Reck) or targeting Reck as he was quote, "a lightning rod" and attracted all the prs early on for his play or just about everyone else. But like ... Gamma. Why gamma? I just don't understand why you would target gamma and two nights in a row at that. It just doesn't make sense to me. I could see Haschel/Gamma but that would mean the scum team distanced really damn well this entire game and I mean kudos to them if that's the solve cuz I'm not seeing it.

sure it is a possibility that me and Gamma could be scum partners, but it would definitely not be because of the night action. just to clarify targeting Gamma two days in a row was pretty logical:

there is no reason for me to check any of PR claims as the result is useless, which left me with you, skies and Gamma.
there was no reason to check you or skies since i think it was pretty likely that UT was going to check you which means my result would most likely be useless espcially considering he was likely to die in the night so would not be able to confirm who he visited
we limmed a scum who is confirmed to have commited the night kill, so if suddenly Gamma did an action it could perhaps be due to him performing the nk now

[duppin]

actually theres no real reason for me not to claim my result first since noraa already seems to have claimed VP visited her

[duppin]

actually theres no real reason for me not to claim my result first since noraa already seems to have claimed VP visited her

For clarification, your claim is that you targeted Noraa?

yes i targeted noraa and got motion detected

[duppin]

actually theres no real reason for me not to claim my result first since noraa already seems to have claimed VP visited her

no. Vp and Ythan are both roles that visit at night. I did not claim vp visited me.

by saying you could confirm someone as town you seemed to imply that as the case. if ythan gave you a mask that doesnt really confirm him as town

nonetheless point still stands; you confirmed someone visited you meaning my result doesnt matter

[duppin]

I also targeted Noraa. She was targeted last night by one Miscellaneous Action and one Action Investigation (me).

That means either we are both telling the truth and you were the Miscellaneous Action, VP targeted Noraa and you are lying, or Ythan targeted Noraa and you are lying.

Based on what Noraa said I'm going with the middle option. Ythan, can you confirm that you did not send a mask to Noraa?

I have absolutely no idea what my action counts as but if you are claiming i am lying then it definitely makes it easier for me to solve

[duppin]

Or is motion detector also influenced by actions performed on me?

yes exactly, so it only confirms taht either you did something or someone visited you

[duppin]

actually theres no real reason for me not to claim my result first since noraa already seems to have claimed VP visited her

no. Vp and Ythan are both roles that visit at night. I did not claim vp visited me.

by saying you could confirm someone as town you seemed to imply that as the case. if ythan gave you a mask that doesnt really confirm him as town

nonetheless point still stands; you confirmed someone visited you meaning my result doesnt matter

isnt mask giver a town role? so if he gave me a mask, it would technically confirm him right? Both mask giver and fn have night actions that confirm them I believe...?

i believe he is town because mafia roleblocker is confirmed to have visited him, but i dont think there is anything that confirms his role as town

[duppin]

Or is motion detector also influenced by actions performed on me?

yes exactly, so it only confirms taht either you did something or someone visited you

I'm a little bit reluctant to believe your claim considering I had just said that I could confirm someone tho I do know that technically it's not ur fault(if u actually are town motion detector) that I claimed first :/

Im also reluctant to believe u cuz gamma/duppin is my current solve

yes that is fair if you are town then gamma and me are probably a possibility but im actually doing VLA at the moment so give me some time to finish it up

[duppin]

actually theres no real reason for me not to claim my result first since noraa already seems to have claimed VP visited her

no. Vp and Ythan are both roles that visit at night. I did not claim vp visited me.

by saying you could confirm someone as town you seemed to imply that as the case. if ythan gave you a mask that doesnt really confirm him as town

nonetheless point still stands; you confirmed someone visited you meaning my result doesnt matter

isnt mask giver a town role? so if he gave me a mask, it would technically confirm him right? Both mask giver and fn have night actions that confirm them I believe...?

i believe he is town because mafia roleblocker is confirmed to have visited him, but i dont think there is anything that confirms his role as town

so that was why he's confirmed? I always thought it was bc mask giver couldn't be scum aligned :/

yes he was confirmed because UT tracked reck visiting ythan and agar on the same night, we know he killed agar so it seems logical to conclude he roleblocked ythan

[duppin]

Motion Detector is a new role for me; it shows both comings AND goings but doesn't say which is which? Is that correct?

Yes indeed, I get either a motion detected or no motion detected

[duppin]

alright and haschel are you hard claiming your result? And are you absolutely sure you detect yourself?

[duppin]

alright then well unless theres misdirection stuff going on, then it should make this day relatively simple

[duppin]

so I think I would like to defend my slot first actually.

Day 2 Reck was the one who started the wagon on my pred slot in 625, 630, 632, 671.
Gamma voted on me a bit after putting my pred at E-2. (649, 653)
A bit after this tn put my slot at E-1. VP was the one to unvote shortly after putting it back at E-2

sure bussing is a possibility but bias aside I think it is unlikely that my slot would be with reck and I especially think the duppin/gamma/reck team is extremely unlikely.

By the way after reading through it I also think it is relatively unlikely for noraa and Gamma to be together mainly because I think it would be weird for Gamma due to their interactions day 2. Essentially Gamma started pushing Noraa due to this: 398, 399, 400 which I just think would be a weird thing to do to a partner

which means if there are 2 scum remaining I believe it is either noraa + haschel or gamma + haschel.
I will however say that the lack of a kill last night bothers me. It's too WIFOMy for me to really try to play around it, but i just dont get the point of it. I have a couple of theories like perhaps there was a traitor that got recruited which could also make a lot of the associative reads more useless and so on, or perhpas that the mask can save people or whatnot. Ultimately it's not something I think is really worth discussing, but it does make me slightly paranoid.

anyway the common denominator between the possible teams i see is haschel.

now he also seems to be counterclaiming me so obviously that also makes it more straightforward as we should lim between me and him

[duppin]

"kinda sussing" is perfect for shallow distancing :/

as i just pointed out he joined recks wagon on my slot d2 and tried to lim me.

of course bussing is a possibility but we can wifom all day long if we want to, but unless you have an independent scumread on us i dont think its very logical to push a duppin/gamma/reck team
actually to be completely honest im not even sure why you think my claim makes us more likely to be partners either but i dont really think its worth discussing

[duppin]

we are limming between me and haschel, you should be evaluating us.

I am curious as to why you think Gamma and haschel is impossible? Why are you of the opinion that they have "distanced so well"? I am just curious as to why you believe there is a bigger split between the two of them than let's say my slot and Gamma?

[duppin]

by the way one thing id like to mention is that haschel is directly counterclaiming my night action. The only reason i mention this is because for that to make sense it would mean that i either lied about my target or i dont have a night action and just randomly guessed that gamma did nothing and that no one visited him two nights in a row.

if i was scum i dont see how it would make sense for me to lie about who i visited especially when i picked the most obvious target and if i were scum then haschel would be town and i know his role so just doesnt really make any sense for me to lie about my target when no one died

[duppin]

we are limming between me and haschel, you should be evaluating us.

I am curious as to why you think Gamma and haschel is impossible? Why are you of the opinion that they have "distanced so well"? I am just curious as to why you believe there is a bigger split between the two of them than let's say my slot and Gamma?

Theres definitely been a bigger split. I'll explain it later today if I remember but rn imma go out for a run with a few friends. Adios.

Okay I am very much looking forward to this explanation because even without my bias I just dont see how you can possibly think this. Gamma tried to get my slot limmed day 2. How is that less distance than the few interactions that Gamma and Haschel have had? If you are town I really need you to revaluate your position because I definitely think they could be together but the fact that you seem to be pushing the notion that they have "distanced" so well is weird and I am unsure as to why you got that impression so please elaborate on this

[duppin]

by the way one thing id like to mention is that haschel is directly counterclaiming my night action. The only reason i mention this is because for that to make sense it would mean that i either lied about my target or i dont have a night action and just randomly guessed that gamma did nothing and that no one visited him two nights in a row.

Option 3: You have a different night action and lied about Gamma doing things. Most people with roles had already claimed their actions by the time you first claimed to have targeted Gamma, if I'm reading things correctly.

for day 3 i think the only n2 actions claimed before i opened up to claim were UT and reck

for day 4 i dont believe anyone had claimed

Also there were no kills, why would I lie about my target even if I had a different night action?

[duppin]

well before i go to bed the last thing i would like to add is that like i said when i claimed my role the only possible partner i could see with Gamma was Haschel, so the fact that Noraa now suddenly pushes the idea that this simply isn't possible just feels off to me. I am unsure as to why she would have that read that they have "distanced" so much that they can't possibly be partners.
The fact that she could not elaborate on this now and the fact that she does not seem to acknowledge that Gamma tried to lim my slot day 2 to me seems to indicate that her read isn't actually based on something concrete.

I don't think the fact that Gamma voted on me necessarily means we can not be partners, but if she was looking for distancing it does not make much sense to me that the reaches the conclusion that there is more of a split between Gamma and Haschel. I thought it would make sense if she was pushing the idea that Gamma could have been bussing or something else but the fact that she went with this makes me lean a tad more towards Haschel + Noraa at the moment because I am fairly confident it is a fake read that is not based on anything specific and I do not believe she has actually been trying to solve possible associations because then she should have realised that if distancing was her concern then Gamma voted on my slot day 2. I thought it might be a possibility that she was just being influenced by the current interaction eg Gamma seems to be siding with me over Haschel at the moment, but her post 1347 makes it sound like she has actual reasons but I suppose I'll wait for her response for now

for day 3 i think the only n2 actions claimed before i opened up to claim were UT and reck

Ythan admitted the person he gave a mask to died in post 796, a whole 300 posts before you said you targeted Gamma. I also mentioned that VP Baltar had targeted me Night 2 in post 834. You don't mention targeting Gamma until post 1106.

That is a bit misleading; I was already claiming in 901 that i was down for claiming but would like to wait for someone else to claim first and in 912 I state that the person is Gamma. I think it is this stage it is fair to conclude that my claim has to do with something Gamma did. I earlier this day stated I had a slight tr on him and I also claimed in in 1060 that my townread on him has nothing to do with his play but my read on him. So I was definitely commited to a claim relating to something Gamma did that would not clear him fully but was something I thought was more likely to make him town. I then claim as you pointed and even if you believe my day 3 hinting was a lucky guess based on some players claiming their n2 action, that same logic does not really apply to my n3 result as people had not claimed their target

[duppin]

Please do not lim outside me and Haschel.

Also I am unsure as to why you are suddenly townreading her. She could be town, but I dont think her posting now has been that town ans definitely not enough to lim outside. I feel her logic is a bit inconsistent; we know there is 1 scum between me and haschel, she believes that Gamma is always scum and she does not believe Gamma and Haschel are ever scumbuddies. If she is town then from her point of view I should always be the lim for today. Trying to lim outside simply due to some association logic that is in my opinion very questionable as in I dont think her association read is justified at all, to me comes across as the “easy” play for her to do as she doesnt really have to take a stance between me and Haschel and can just kind of justify voting on someone else due to “associations”. I think the most likely explanation is just that she is with Haschel but doesnt want to take too hard of a stance in me vs Haschel in case Haschel gets limmed. I could be wrong and would like to hear some more from her but yeah. I really need to sleep now though

[duppin]

That was meant for VP by the way

[duppin]

Ok Im still not caught up and have some other stuff I gotta do tonight but here's my reply to the core of duppins argument.
We are almost 100% certain their is one scum in {duppin, haschel} and one in {noraa, gamma} because we are all sold that {vp, ythan} is clear
You say limming in {duppin, haschel} is better but I disagree bc
1) both pools are guaranteed a scum because Noraa/Gamma and Duppin/Haschel are shitsolves and everyone knows these are impossible. If anyone believes in one of these, do explain cuz I don't buy it.
2) we just limmed a doctor. limming another power role(or the possibility cuz we dk preflip) is a terrible idea considering it'll likely live til tmrw as long as we kill of scum!gamma

That is not the core of my argument though.

The core of my argument is that you are clearing a pairing of Gamma/Haschel for no apparent reason. This is what I asked you to elaborate on and you said you would but you did not. I need you to explain why you do not think they can be partners.

A big reason I question this read of yours is because to me it does actually seem like you have been trying to look for potential associations properly because if you had then you should realise there had been more distancing between my pred slot and Gamma that there has been between Gamma and Haschel. This does not mean me and Gamma are never together but if you want to push that world your argument should be that Gamma bussed my slot.
However your argument seems to be that me and Gamma are more likely to be together due to my claim (but how does that work?) and that Gamma and Haschel are unlikely to be together because ???

So when you push this world you are automatically going to push me into a Haschel/Noraa pair.

If you are town then once again, I need you to acknowledge the fact that Gamma tried to lim my slot day 2 and I need you to explain why Gamma and Haschel can not be together.
If you are town, then from my point of view the team would have to be Gamma and Haschel, but you do not believe that is possible so why is that?

[duppin]

And Noraa please understand that if you are town then it is very important you evaluate this world because if we end up limming Haschel today and he flips scum, then it clears me as town so do you think I as town would be more likely to believe in the Gamma+Haschel world when Gamma sided with me over Haschel or the Noraa+Haschel world when you tried to push the idea that Gamma/Haschel could never be together. If you are town then you really need to figure out why you do not believe they can be together.

[duppin]

Also I suppose I should at least consider the possibility of noraa + Gamma.

As I said I think it is unlikely given Gamma's push on noraa day 2. For them to be partners it would also mean that they would have to have some kind of redirect ability and that it would have been used either on Haschel (in which case he would have been redirected to Gamma because then the misc action would have been Ythan) or that they redirected me to any of the tpr claims.

Noraa does claim she wants to lim Gamma over me and Haschel but does not want to vote because she says scum would be able to lim quickly, but actually that isn't true since we are 6 players so it would require at least two town votes. Meh I don't think all of this sounds that plausible, technically possible but unlikely I think.

But I think I would at least like an answer to this:

I’m kinda curious about something
Btw I’d prefer duppin claim his action first

I know VP already asked about this as well, but why did you want me to claim first?

[duppin]

And Noraa please understand that if you are town then it is very important you evaluate this world because if we end up limming Haschel today and he flips scum, then it clears me as town so do you think I as town would be more likely to believe in the Gamma+Haschel world when Gamma sided with me over Haschel or the Noraa+Haschel world when you tried to push the idea that Gamma/Haschel could never be together. If you are town then you really need to figure out why you do not believe they can be together.

What side of this argument I agree with doesn't decide my alignment. for all I know, you could be scum trying to manipulate me rn and honestly, I'm pretty convinced your adding fuel to the fire and making everyone confused so that your partner gamma doesn't die. Gamma siding with u over haschel. I could see that as gamma bussing haschel to pocket you later to push you tomorrow and win the game. So, ig if I buy a duppin town, gamma/haschel is the solve.

how am I confusing anyone? It is pretty clear that I am not voting on anyone but Haschel today.
->

duppin town I buy more than haschel town.
but as I've said, there's been more interactions between gamma and duppin than gamma and haschel which makes me think its more likely duppin is scum. Cuz scums don't distance that well normally..

now see this is important: you know there is a scum between me and haschel and you believe i am more likely to be town than haschel
This means that you have to consider Gamma/Haschel as a potential world but it seems like you have refused to do so

You said gamma pushed you day 2 or something. I don't see how that rules out a duppin/gamma solve at all. Bussing is a thing and the fact that it was a vanity wagon at the time that wasn't all that likely to go thru anyways bc of the chkflip mislim doesn't really help me rule that out. Plus Dr. Pepper was in ur slot at the time and he was a full on lurker. Even if the scums I'm assuming gamma and reck just wanted to full on get him limmed for towncred, I would not at all be surprised.

I clearly stated that I thought you would argue that we were partners and he bussed - but you did not, which was why I thought your logic was really weird.
Also why are you talking about chkflip? I am unsure as to what you mean, this was day 2 and it is undeniable that a confirmed scum player tried to start a quick wagon on my slot and Gamma then voted after mod confirmed my slot had been prodded and then my slot was but to E-1 but VP put it back to E-2. The argument you should be making if you want to paint me as scum is that scum bussed and tried to lim my slot which I suppose is a possibility. Bias side I think that would be unlikely for them to do that when they could easily push elsewhere (there was a wagon on you as an example and tn I believe), yet it deflected onto my slot and was started by confirmed scum. You can make your own conclusions I understand that I have some bias of course

[duppin]

Ok so duppin. I am the most confident in a scum!gamma possibility. When briefly thinking about who the partner could be, my answer was duppin. I don't remember exactly what happened bit by bit throughout the entire course of this game but I remembered that recently you had "cleared" gamma by saying you targeted him two days in a row. I remembered this interaction cuz I found it weird at the time that 1) you chose to target gamma two days in a row and 2) that you thought no action 2 days in a row 100% cleared them. There was a lot of interaction between you and gamma with all the "u claim first please" and I felt that was a great way for partners to distance-by calling each other out(in a way) Between Gamma and Haschel, all I can really remember is maybe them being on the same wagon a few times but like ... that's it. The interactions are so few that I feel they aren't the solve otherwise rn it would seem very obvious it was them.

this isn't really consistent with what you said earlier. You said that they had "distanced" so well that you did not believe they could be together, now youre claiming that they haven't had any interactions.
It seems like what your real read/logic should be is that you believe me and Gamma are more likely to be together due to my claim (which I will gladly challenge, I don't really see why that would be a scum ploy) more so than you have reason to believe that Gamma and Haschel can not be together.

I can accept the fact that if you are town that you believe me and Gamma are slightly more likely to be partners but I can not accept that you can not believe Gamma and haschel can not be together because there is absolutely no reason to believe this and you also indirectly push it into a Haschel/Noraa world by this approach, which is why I think it is scummy. So if you are town then you really need to understand that the world is a possibility and that you do not have any reason to deem it unlikely because they haven't really interacted at all

(i also really disagree with your logic that scum are less likely to distance, I am sure this is the case for some players but if you believe this is the norm then I just wanted to let you know I think that is a very dangerous mindset to have as town, but this is probably more for post game)

[duppin]

I never said gamma/haschel is impossible. I just feel like gamma/duppin seems more likely. but my problem is that I buy duppin town more than haschel town individually. but when gamma comes into play, I think ur more likely. so I've just gone in circles with this logic cuz I can't fucking tell which of {duppin, haschel} is town. this is why I've been saying gamma lim is towns safest bet today.

i did not say you said it was impossible, i said that you said you couldnt see it because you thought they distanced too well. to quote:

"I could see Haschel/Gamma but that would mean the scum team distanced really damn well this entire game and I mean kudos to them if that's the solve cuz I'm not seeing it."

[duppin]

duppin stop twisting my words. Im not replying to most of the above posts bc ur twisting my words. Idc if u don't agree with my logic. Point out flaws don't twist my words around and create some dang flaws.

I apologise if you feel like I am twisting your words, I do not feel I am. I believe I am pointing out the flaws in your logic, feel free to point out where you believe I am twisting your words

[duppin]

I dont find Noraa to be more townie than Gamma at the moment and I know Haschel is scum since he is counterclaiming me (unless it is Gamma+noraa with some kind of redirection but that just seems really unlikely), so as it stands right now there is no way I would vote on anyone but Haschel

[duppin]

I have a hard time thinking gamma = noraa here.

Noraa is actually working here it seems. If she's scum, it's pretty good scum play.

Noraa could be town. Haschel is scum.

There is a chance we straight up lose if we lim Noraa or Gamma, but we will definitely lim scum if we lim Haschel from my point of view obviously.
I am not confident enough in my reads on either Noraa or Gamma to vote on someone else. Besides all it would really accomplish is that you would delay me vs Haschel for tomorrow.

[duppin]

i think you misunderstand what i have been saying: i have been saying that there is no reason to believe that gamma and haschel could not be scumbuddies and if you are town and i am know then i am pointing it out to you so you realise that you are making a mistake by clearing them. you finding me and gamma mroe likely to be scumpartners is not the issue, it is the clearing of them because if you are town then it is factually wrong (assuming 2 scum) unless some really weird stuff going on since i am town.

when you did not really explain it yet kept saying to me it came across as suspicious especially because you were pushing a direct world where i was scum purely from your poe logic even though you didn't not directly call me scum, so naturally this would make me more inclined to believe that you could be scum

[duppin]

To me this come across as you clearing them from your own point of view:

"I could see Haschel/Gamma but that would mean the scum team distanced really damn well this entire game and I mean kudos to them if that's the solve cuz I'm not seeing it."

[duppin]

I told u that my logic that u r more town than haschel but u r more likely with gamma drove me insane. why tf is this scum indicative?

because from my point of view you are claiming
a) that you are 100% sure Gamma is scum
b) that Gamma and Haschel are not scumbuddies

this means whether intentional or not that the team you are pushing is me and Gamma - which is perfectly reasonable in itself, however it is the fact that you stated that you could not see Gamma and Haschel being together that it is issue. The issue is not that you think me and Gamma are more likely to be together due to my claim

[duppin]

urs is entirely from ur pov as well. Under these standards ur scum. U can't call me out for doing something u do. And I don't understand. Am I expected to think from someone else's perspective?

Not true. This is not what I am doing. I was evaluating all the possible teams and my conclusion was this as I stated:

Noraa and Gamma are unlikely to be together due to Gamma's day 2 push on Noraa.
There is nothing that really indicates that a Noraa+Haschel and a Gamma+Haschel pairing isn't possible.

What you did was state that you did not believe Gamma and Haschel could be together because they you think they have distanced so well if they have.
I believe this was a wrong read because there is no distancing between them as they have hardly interacted.
You then later claimed that you more so believe it is the lack of distance as well actually as you think the fact that they haven't engaged means they are less likely to be partners (I really disagree with this logic but thats whole different discussion we do not need to have)

[duppin]

Why is that an issue? I don't see any links between the two and they have almost zero interaction

It is an issue because if you are town then I know for a fact the read is wrong (unless some weird stuff with one of the confirmed being towns or only a 2 man team) plus the biggest issue is probably that you did not provide a reason.
You only just provided an explanation recently, not initially and that explanation is kind of the opposite of distancing in terms of the words general meaning in mafia.

[duppin]

I am not sure this discussion is really useful though. But if you are town then we can talk about this post game if you want. If others disagree they can obviously chime in, but I stand by my belief that there is no logical reason to believe that they can not be together and you forming that read based on them having no interaction is a dangerous approach.

but yes i think ill stop this topic for now because i dont think its that important right now

[duppin]

i agree with the sentiment that Gamma looks slightly worse than noraa after these posts - but I am still not voting on either one.

solve me and haschel today and noraa and gamma tomorrow

[duppin]

I think what i will say VP is that I feel you are giving noraa townpass a bit too easy, i get the impression that you have not played with her before and thus are giving her a newb pass but she isn't a bad scum player actually.
we are in mylo so her pushing out the only possible worlds she can doesn't really mean anything especially not if the team is just haschel + noraa. I will gladly admit I am not looking that much after the second partner right now, I believe both are possible and I do believe noraa has been slightly more town than Gamma today but I do not believe she has been as town as you seem to believe for us to lim outside me and Haschel

[duppin]

also this should be obvious but i still feel the need to mention it, we can't really form any association reads based on today as it is very much a possibility that scum would bus today and i mean who knows, it's all wifom. So Gamma isn't more townie for voting on Haschel and Noraa isn't more townie for wanting to vote on Gamma

[duppin]

I think what i will say VP is that I feel you are giving noraa townpass a bit too easy, i get the impression that you have not played with her before and thus are giving her a newb pass but she isn't a bad scum player actually.

I don't think it's newb pass at all. I've been gone from the site for a very long time, so there are few people left here who I have played with (though a disproportionate number in this game)....meaning, I really don't have much to base anyone's play on other than what is happening in this game. I believe you she can be a good scum player, but that'd be some exceptionally good scumplay imo.

I will take time to reread her at some point though and make sure I'm not biasing myself here.

that's fair and maybe i misunderstood your read but it sounded to me like you townread her for pushing the only plausible world she could. the logic itself is relatively simple, there are 2 confirmed towns and she has to push herself as town so means she has to push 2 scum in the pool of 3 but what concerns me is

a) before VP had even counterclaimed me she said she did not believe me and haschel could ever be together - why is that?
b) the inconsistent logic regarding possible haschel/gamma pair
c) she said she believed the solve was me/gamma but then after Haschel counterclaimed me, she wanted to lim Gamma over me

i believe you are giving her way too much credit for her first post

also once again I really want to clarify this: I do not necessarily believe noraa is scum but i believe it is a possibility, she has not convinced me she is town albeit i definitely find her to be slightly more townie than Gamma so far based on today but this is why I refuse to vote anyone but haschel

[duppin]

to me her first post came across as her slightly defending haschel without wanting to commit too hard to it and then after he counterclaimed it she tried to push the idea we should lim gamma instead which is exactly what i wouldve expected her to do if she was partners with haschel

on the other hand i definitely also agree that it also makes sense to push this from a town perspective, but there is just a tad too much that concerns me about her that i trust her enough to lim outside

[duppin]

you seem to believe everything she has done is coming from a town perspective but in my opinion her play is also the most logical play to go for if she is with haschel so yeah

[duppin]

a) before VP had even counterclaimed me she said she did not believe me and haschel could ever be together - why is that?

I mean, that would make no sense, right? Scum would claim both a MD and voyeur? They are very similar roles. I think the only reason that didn't get called out earlier was because it seemed to fit some kind of thematic setup around confusing night actions. With skies' flip, it seems like too much town power to possibly be true.

We haven't seen any evidence of scum power to counter that much power.

true i agree with that actually

[duppin]

anyway i think i have said all i wanted to for today. I want to lim Haschel, I believe it is the best lim and the mechanical correct.
if you and ythan have such a strong townread on noraa then you should just do what you think is correct

VOTE: Haschel

[duppin]

stats are irrelevant noraa

[duppin]

VP what i will say is that behaviour towards haschel concerns me a lot, you could read her doggos game if you want to and perhaps you understand my concern.

anyway i have really said all i wanted to noraa, i think you have played a more townie day than gamma but i am not convinced you are town, so I am voting on someone I know is scum

[duppin]

okay last post before i sleep, its really simple. VP and Ythan if you believe I am town, then vote on Haschel. If you believe noraa is more town than me then i understand if you vote on gamma.

but i really suggest you to read her doggos game because her reaction to the haschel vote is very concerning also the post saying that she now believes in haschel/gamma is meaningless if she votes on gamma since it is in mylo. i am biased since i was counterclaimed and whatever, anyway goodnight hopefully the game isnt over when i wake up tomorrow

[duppin]

The fact Noraa doesn't know that is a huge townslip

no no its really not, especially not when both me and gamma have already pointed it out earlier in the day. on the contrary it seems to indicate that she either hasnt read the post aimed at her, that she forgot or that she is faking it. it simply isn't alignment indicative and i know you claimed earlier that you didn't, but i simply can't see how this is not a newb pass. I refuse to believe you would have called it a townslip if Gamma had said it.

also i can obviously only link to her finished scum games, but i really believe you ought to take a look at her doggos game.
i believe this might be her first game so her play is definitely a bit more newb like but after i read it i found it concerning and i actually think all of her latest posts are making me lean more towards her being scum.

this is her iso in that game, she is scum with shelly:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12084642

notice how her read on shelly progresses throughout the game, when shelly is pushed on she tries to townclear her by dismissing/trying to discredit the pusher. I feel she did the exact same here, she seemed to suggest haschel became more townie after i voted on him and that she was scared that both scum had voted on haschel etc, when i have been making it very clear all day that i would always vote for haschel and that she should be able to understand that from my point of view he is always scum (which is also why i dont think it is town at all for haschel to vote on anyone but me especially not when the team could easily be me and noraa since our slots have not pushed on each other at all and i pushed for a skies wagon over noraa yesterday, our interactions today shouldnt really affect his read that much given its mylo, so i think thats a scumtell).
she also does the whole "i am so confused" thing quite a lot. feel free to compare that iso with her town games

now id like to say this does not necessarily mean she is scum, but i think there is quite a big possibility that she.
So solve me and Haschel instead please.

[duppin]

actually also one more thing, noraas defense of skies last day was a bit odd to me at least and she kind of did the same in the game i linked, defended towns under fire for what i at least consider to be not very good reasoning.

i dont want to conf bias myself too much, but i will say after her latest posts today i dont find her to be town anymore, so i think gamma/noraa should be the solve for tomorrow assuming you would lim haschel over me of course

[duppin]

1) i agree yes and as i also said earlier in the day i also think you've had some small town tells - but your reaction to the whole haschel thing and the way you treated his slot is just very similar to what you have done as scum. I also think I have been very clear about me not being convinced you are scum but my earlier town lean on you today has dropped back to a well lets just call it a null read leaning slight towards scum
2) i even pointed it out myself that it was your first game, but that does not change the fact that there are some similarities to this game that i find scummy

[duppin]

im not really being protective of anyone, i just want to lim haschel

also i am not sure you know what sheeping means?

[duppin]

also that clearly wasnt my logic, but i dont need to explain any of this to you really. i just need ythan and vp to actually evaluate me and haschel

[duppin]

Incidentally Duppin trying to shift things onto Noraa using a single game's meta is scummy as fuck. Not only is any cherrypicked meta argument worthless to other players, but using a small sample size is disingenuous.

that's very misleading. i can only use games she has finished for obvious reasons, the other scum game she has she replaced into a scumread slot around d2 or d3 (cant remember) which changes the dynamics a bit obviously, but she still did something similar towards her partner (her preds vote was on her partner, she unvoted for no real reason and then later had a null leaning town read on the slot for no real logical reason either).

she has also finished a towngame and you are free to read up on that as well to see what i pointed all

but the fact that you come out with this statement does actually make me feel it makes noraa slightly more town, not in the sense that associations mean anything as of right now but more so because i just feel like it could be an attempt at wanting put more shade on me in case we end up limming Gamma today and he flips scum

[duppin]

Haschel last day you called Noraa scum, your behaviour today seems to suggest you have changed your mind, so could you explain your read progression?

[duppin]

Haschel last day you called Noraa scum, your behaviour today seems to suggest you have changed your mind, so could you explain your read progression?

Yesterday it looked obvious that Noraa was partners with Brightskies. This was provably false so I reevaluated, and her play today has been town.

Would you mind elaborating on this?

[duppin]

Incidentally Duppin trying to shift things onto Noraa using a single game's meta is scummy as fuck. Not only is any cherrypicked meta argument worthless to other players, but using a small sample size is disingenuous.

that's very misleading. i can only use games she has finished for obvious reasons, the other scum game she has she replaced into a scumread slot around d2 or d3 (cant remember) which changes the dynamics a bit obviously, but she still did something similar towards her partner (her preds vote was on her partner, she unvoted for no real reason and then later had a null leaning town read on the slot for no real logical reason either).

she has also finished a towngame and you are free to read up on that as well to see what i pointed all

but the fact that you come out with this statement does actually make me feel it makes noraa slightly more town, not in the sense that associations mean anything as of right now but more so because i just feel like it could be an attempt at wanting put more shade on me in case we end up limming Gamma today and he flips scum

ur statement conflicts itself. U say im throwing shade on u for having a bad argument and that means I am more scummy(im assuming thats what u meant not more towny)

i think you are misunderstanding or perhaps it was poorly worded, because i was talking about haschel throwing more shade at me

[duppin]

So duppin ur argument itself was wrong. I dont understand why im not allowed to bring attention to it when ur just using an unreasonable argument that applies to every single one of my games but its literally impossible for me to be scum in 8 games at the same time

noraa i dont feel you are really reading exactly what i have been saying or maybe i am just not explaining myself properly, but if you have an issue with my logic then try to point out exactly where you believe it is wrong. i feel like it is rather difficult to have a logical discussion with you because it feels to me like you dont really understand what i am saying most of the time and i appreciate the fact that this might be my own fault and that it could be me just not explaining myself good enough

[duppin]

The Noraa/Brightskies interactions looked bad for a day and a half; I thought each was going out of their way to look like they were commenting on the other without saying anything of substance. I specifically called them out as a scumteam multiple times.

Then Skies died and they were telling the truth about their doctor claim after all. The whole point of this game is reevaluating after getting new information so I'm not sure where you are going with this.

oh sorry, i wanted you to elaborate on your townread on her

[duppin]

if you wanna waste a hot 5 hours, you can read my only finished scumgame, Doggos.

Duppin, how do you feel about Noraa offering me the meta of her own scum game D2, unprovoked?

i mean generally id say its meaningless and for noraa i am 100% certain it is not alignment indicative

[duppin]

if you wanna waste a hot 5 hours, you can read my only finished scumgame, Doggos.

Duppin, how do you feel about Noraa offering me the meta of her own scum game D2, unprovoked?

i mean generally id say its meaningless and for noraa i am 100% certain it is not alignment indicative

why is it not AI?

noraa we cant talk about this

[duppin]

im not using it against you, i just said i dont think its alignment indicative to refer to your own games. both town and scum do it

[duppin]

im not using it against you, i just said i dont think its alignment indicative to refer to your own games. both town and scum do it

I think my point is that you are making this gigantic deal out of her scum performance in that game, and it's not like she was trying to hide it. In fact, she encouraged me specifically to go look at it without me asking.

If she was cognizant I might look at that game, why would she play to the letter of that scum meta this game, as you're implying?

i dont think that is what i implied, i said that the way she treated the haschel slot this game especially after the votes seems similar to how she treated her partner in that game, eg she was painting her partner as more town by shading the pressure against them. an example in this game was her questioning my vote on haschel, saying she was worried about it etc even though it should have been obvious that i was always going to vote on haschel.
i also brought up the fact that she seems to defend town slots out of the blue if they are being randomed and that the reads are often not based on something specifically related to the game but more so that they feel like mislim bait etc which was kind of how her random defense of skies yesterday felt to me. out of the town games i read of her i didnt feel like this was present in her game, but i did also say that i dont want to conf bias myself too much because my read could definitely be affected by the fact that she pushed me together with gamma and all that stuff earlier on.

so yeah i dont think i said her play was exactly like in that game i also pointed out that she was new in that game, but my concern was in regards to her do some things that i saw in her scum game but not really in her towngame. but yes i have already admitted there might be some slight bias regarding some of it especially since i know haschel is scum, this was also why i encouraged you to read the games yourself and form your own opinion because i am not sure if it is useful for you to hear me claim one thing and for noraa to claim something is her town meta and so on

[duppin]

so yeah i dont think i said her play was exactly like in that game i also pointed out that she was new in that game, but my concern was in regards to her do some things that i saw in her scum game but not really in her towngame. but yes i have already admitted there might be some slight bias regarding some of it especially since i know haschel is scum, this was also why i encouraged you to read the games yourself and form your own opinion because i am not sure if it is useful for you to hear me claim one thing and for noraa to claim something is her town meta and so on

Right, I agree we have settled how you both feel about this particular meta.

Do you feel noraa is scummy outside this meta? How much looking back at the game have you done today and really tried to evaluate people with the totality of information we have.

I have to be honest, I think Haschel-Gamma is the right solve here, but I'm still doing rereading to check myself on that. I'm worried are both tunneling so hard on each other that even if we yeet right today, tomorrow will not go well because you're both so distrustful of each other.

i also think it should be clear that i have went back and tried to revaluate the game, which was why i brought up the vote progression, brought up the fact that reck tried to lim my slot earlier and gamma voted on my slot after it had been prodded and you were the one to save my slot after it was put at e-1, why i thought noraa/gamma was unlikely etc, so yes my read on noraa is not only related to that game. The only reason i brought up that game was due to me being concerned about some of the things she did this day which felt similar to what she has done as scum before so that was why i brought it up.

I think her interaction with reck where reck pushed here were rather odd especially noraas read on reck felt off to me, i think her defense of skies is weird no matter what as it felt a bit tmi to me

however to be honest i have to admit i dont think it is completely fair to imply i suggest i am tunneling on noraa, but i mean i suppose i can perhaps understand why you might get that impression.
It is true i have been finding her more scummy as the day have went on, but what i am really saying is that i think we should solve noraa and gamma tomorrow and me and haschel today.
I do not know who the scum is between noraa and Gamma and that is the read i have given all day long. I find noraa slightly more scummy but my read is obviously influenced at the moment by me being concerned of her trying to push away from someone i know is scum

[duppin]

i mean sure we can pretend that is what i said

[duppin]

I find it unfair that everything ur saying is super .... *sigh* just not helpful at all. None of what you said makes me want to evaluate in {duppin, haschel} today any more than I ever did and you are referencing one scum game and assuming that similar behavior determines my alignment.

You have zero reasons for why {duppin, haschel} is where we should lim instead of {Noraa, gamma}

You just say im scummy bc of *terrible* reasons so everyone should listen to you.

jesus...

How about we talk about something different. Noraa you haven't really talked about Haschel all game long, what is your read on him? I understand that you have said there is a scum between me and Haschel and you keep going back and forth who is the town, but I am asking you to elaborate a bit on this. Like what makes (or made?) you believe I was more likely to be town than Haschel? Or what makes you believe that he is more/less likely to be scum?

[duppin]

Ok, so let's entertain this for a minute. Who is your best guess at the full scum team reck?

great question. i'd probably wager 2 of the unrevealeds and then one of the claimed roles just based on probability. the extra manipulator role has to be something unclaimed since everything else is at least ACTION confirmed, but not alignment confirmed

so 2 of {gamma, skies, duppin, noraa} and 1 of {ut, ythan, haschel}

out of those, gun to my head, dont think it's gamma or ut.

This might be the revealing post we needed. Put yourself in Reck's shoes here. I forced him to tell me his scum team after he got caught lying. What are the odds he puts both of his buddies in the same grouping in this post? I would think low, particularly in the bracket where he says there are 2 scum.

If true, that means Haschel is definitely scum here. My only hang up with that vote is I don't trust duppin to sort noraa and gamma tomorrow in an open minded way.

VP don't forget my role

[duppin]

you said my logic was bad on that tho so im not sure if repeating it helps

i assume this was in response to me, but the logic i was talking about was regarding associations.

i would just like to know what it is that made you think i was more likely to be town over haschel at one point

[duppin]

noraa you do realise that if they do not kill anyone we can lim both you and gamma right

[duppin]

noraa you do realise that if they do not kill anyone we can lim both you and gamma right

Gammas not gonna kill unless he's stupid but also what?

if we lim haschel and scum does not kill then town wins because that means we get 2 lims

[duppin]

it is a troll, you voted correctly

[duppin]

Duppin would u lie to me?

well i mean perhaps, but i didnt lie this time

also vp and ythan maybe you should just visit each other tonight

[duppin]

Duppin would u lie to me?

well i mean perhaps, but i didnt lie this time

also vp and ythan maybe you should just visit each other tonight

I can do that. I'm not seeing the logic, but maybe it will come to me. We could also just not move.

oh sure you can do that as well

[duppin]

im feeling a bit better about this decision. duppin u wouldn't twilight troll right?

no i wouldnt

i mean i am 100% town so unless there is some really weird stuff going on, then haschel is 100% scum

[duppin]

thanks for the game everyone and thanks for modding

[duppin]

but I am not always SRing you, thats just factually wrong