Mini Theme 2165: MafiaSunny (Complete!)

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vote reck

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I'm officially opening applications for the VP town block. Anyone admitted will survive until the end as CONFIRMED TOWN.

TO APPLY:

1) Do stuff VP finds obvtown.
2) Laugh as scum flail from being PoE'd into oblivion.

Who is submitting applications?

vote VP

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praise the Sun(ny)

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Do arbitrary townblocs ever contribute anything of meaning? I see so many people open with them and I want to mock the living daylights of them for how silly it is but I’ve never actually paid attention to their effects on the game

Townblocs win games. What you got against them?

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Is there a reason for anyone voting anything or are y'all so caught up in the glory that is Sunny that you are just voting randomly

(pls this is my 0.5th game of mafia, if this is a tradition i aint familiar)

Most mafia games start with joke votes until something more real builds.

I'm actually increasingly happy with this Gamma Emerald vote though. You should hop on this wagon

Are you encouraging

sheeping

?
Suspicious...

I love sheeping.

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townblocs are garbage. they give scum a place to hide and an easy list of who to nightkill.

plus I reflexively like to yeet people who stand up and say "I am the leader of this game"

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A non-exhaustive list of things that aren't garbage:

1. Puppies
2. Sunny
3. The girl reading this message
4. The fact that LyLo has become "YOLO" since we use "yeet" now
5. Yeeting people who think they're the leader of the game

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ut quick: what ISNT garbage

Got you there, UT

You'll notice I didn't put myself on the list

That's bc I practice humility

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last game I was in with him I got a real scummy vibe off his early posts, then he talked me into not voting him by being one of the only not-absolutely-obnoxious people posting

then he flipped scum

so I should probably just trust my gut here

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although admittedly it's a different kind of gut scumread than usual so

again I don't fucking know but it's the best thing I have atm so tally ho

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You have to be pretty certain of the people in it , of course.

yeah this is the part that, basically every time, I see people fuck up

1. hunt for town
2. ???
3. Profit!

or

1. hunt for scum
2. vote for them
3. profit!

I know which one I like better

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...do you think this is my first game of mafia or something?

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Does UT oppose meta?

UT is a proud subscriber to Reck's Meta is Trash religion

okay first of all we are cofounders of this religion

second, I thought it was pretty clear from how I worded that, but I am not suggesting that I am divining VP's alignment from a meta read. what I am doing is recounting a time previously when I made a mistake by second-guessing my gut read on someone and coincidentally it happened to be VP in the time I'm thinking of.

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bb u already know ur special

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vote chkflip

I think we've found our townbloc /s

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The disparity between these two posts is atrocious. In the first you're applauding xRECKONERx as helpful town and in the second you're chastising Haschel for asking you a question you found to be unhelpful. What pings me here is simple: they both posted equally. RECK's post about the history of Sunny, though enlightening for the kids not following along in the appreciation thread, wasn't remotely alignment indicative. Yet you're seemingly taken aback by something you don't think will help engage you in a way that'll show your own alignment? Pardon my French, bud, but that doesn't make any fucking reasonable amount of sense to me.

VP's posting isn't great but this post is also bad.

can we drill down and try to suss out what is bad about it?

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The disparity between these two posts is atrocious. In the first you're applauding xRECKONERx as helpful town and in the second you're chastising Haschel for asking you a question you found to be unhelpful. What pings me here is simple: they both posted equally. RECK's post about the history of Sunny, though enlightening for the kids not following along in the appreciation thread, wasn't remotely alignment indicative. Yet you're seemingly taken aback by something you don't think will help engage you in a way that'll show your own alignment? Pardon my French, bud, but that doesn't make any fucking reasonable amount of sense to me.

VP's posting isn't great but this post is also bad.

can we drill down and try to suss out what is bad about it?

I'm gonna just quote this instead of Haschel's question

Anyway, I think that what it looks like the most to me is using inconsistency as a stand-in for scumminess when in and of itself it is not. I assume that chkflip knows that inconsistency is a common tell for scum players who sometimes are forced to adopt the reads that serve their purposes rather than the ones that make sense and so they can end up flip-flopping in inexplicable ways. so it is an argument that has some of the shape and words of a normal one but upon examination doesn't have the content

regardless, my primary issue with chkflip was that he absolutely exploded on something so tiny as to be nonexistent, presumably because he figured others would fill in the gaps for him and/or would see it as *effortposting* and therefore assume it to be town

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UNVOTE: VP Baltar

I don't know what you mean that a vote on him is worthless at any stage of the game. You're saying we should never vote for him because he lurks and is bad in your opinion?

I don't mean never vote for him. He's more useful alive to link himself to partners than dead because he did something obvious.

My post has uncovered more townreads than I expected it to, so that's amazing. My vote has served it's purpose.

The argument would be that scum tend to be at a loss D1 for who they should target and chkflip decided to make a mountain out of a molehill from my posts because he thought more people were offended by them than really were.

The mountain out of a molehill part is accurate, but it had little to do with the room and more to do with the opportunity it presented. I've got at least four, maybe five, townreads out of my play. I've also gotten people to potentially recognize one another as town as well. That's incredibly useful given it's page 7 of D1.

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but do you have anything to add other than shade

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I have a slight SR on reck

SPICY

let's get into that

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I have a slight SR on reck

SPICY

let's get into that

I don't follow...
was there more scumtells that I missed?

as in "what do you find scummy about Reck?"

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would. you. care. to. elaborate. on. your. scumread. on. reck?

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would. you. care. to. elaborate. on. your. scumread. on. reck?

IIoa and their tone seems ... idk the best I can describe it is fake. just some gut scum pings that are getting me a SR

it took me asking three times to get this weak shit?

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I furthermore feel like I'm not really being interacted with at all and this is really unsettling to me.

gotta spend money to make money buddy

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the nice thing about only having a couple of anime avatars is that when one starts anime avatarring no one really gives a shit and we don't have to consider policy yeeting just to remove the cancer

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I am also really baffled by the whole clique thing. like I think the first three or four votes on chk were pretty clear about why were were scumreading him, as was Haschel. it was tone and overreaction.

it's like those of you who aren't in the clique have a different game you're reading that we're not privy to

maybe you're the real clique

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I have a slight SR on reck

SPICY

let's get into that

Honestly I think there’s reason to suspect some of the old guard players here, VPB mentioned they kill likely being to pop off a hydra, which does point to people like UT who have gone on record saying they dislike hydrae
Though there’s also the fact that’s such a specific suggestion I also consider it possible VPB let loose a bit of nightkill TMI

I'll admit that I hate hydra 90% of the time, but this one wasn't being annoying yet

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Where is UT hates hydrae info from?

I usually fucking hate hydras because they tend to spam the thread and make it uninhabitable for intelligent life

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Sitewide V/LA til Friday. Work is being a bitch

UNTIL FRIDAY?

Dude, you got to replace out. That's a ridiculous VLA. Sucks work is busy, we shouldn't have to wait that long to get info from your slot.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=79321

Do not do this.

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Hey UT, should we yeet on or off the chkflip wagon today?

allow me to give you a very unsatisfying answer:

based solely on yesterday's play: on-wagon
based solely on today's play: off-wagon

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but nora's push on me was so fucking weak dude

it gives me flashbacks to that post chk made that literally half the game read and said "yeah okay that's an absolutely insane post I'll vote this"

:-/

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refusing to play mafia is the hot new strategy that's taking the streets by storm

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I replied to your post 293 with post 310. I never heard anything about it again from your side....

Oh, scum wants to know why their scum?

It's your role PM, usually.

this is one of my favorite pithy retorts to a scumread when they inevitably ask me to convince them that they're scum (lol) and I'm kind of mad you preempted me

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ah hell let's do it

vote noraa

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if anyone thinks that a persons first few posts are enough evidence to be limming them, then they aren't trying to solve for town.

the post this is quoted from is bad for a number of reasons, but I will quote this specifically to say that this is completely 100% wrong. mafia players (especially new ones) often have difficulty before the tone of the game has been set at not seeming uncanny. mafia hides in people's blind spots by playing off of their posts and appeasing them for what they want to hear and pushing them in the directions that they have indicated they are willing to be pushed. someone's "first few posts" are in my experience an EXCELLENT place to catch them as scum.

your attack on reck specifically was garbage, and you completely backed off of it after receiving the slightest pressure. I had to ask you three times to get that garbage post, so it's not like you had something in the chamber for it. it reads to me as "I have picked someone to suspect but I don't know why so now that I have been asked to explain it I will pick IIoA because I've seen it used to refer to long posts before".

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DoctorPepper [X-5] [X-5]

:thinkingemoji:

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it's pretty clearly a mistake in the VC

regardless I'm 100% down for a flashwagon of Doctor P

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VOTE: dr. Pepper

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I kind of want to just let tn keep talking to see what else he says but

vote tn

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okay so your only argument is more self meta

cool

VOTE: tn5421

actually this was the hammer vote

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so a different way of looking at it was that I hastily threw a vote on my already-hammered scumbuddy to make it appear that I didn't know but supported the wagon

ya know

if you wanted to be a dumbfuck

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ah well

yeet it into the sun

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cool so can we do this now

VOTE: noraa

can we first have a very brief talk about why you visited AGar last night?

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I would like to, while admitting my own mistakes in this regard, request that we take today veeeeeeeeeery slowly

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cool so can we do this now

VOTE: noraa

can we first have a very brief talk about why you visited AGar last night?

sure, i blocked him

next question?

you blocked AGar, that's what you did last night?

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cool, according to the mod you visited AGar and Ythan last night.

did you block night 1?

___________________

so the rules explicitly state that mafia has multitasking and the mafia is allowed to assign a group of roles amongst themselves. so let's game out some possibilities for last night based on what I know

If Reck is telling the truth about being a roleblocker:
1. He is mafia, and blocked Ythan and killed AGar
2. He is town, and he blocked AGar but there's some kind of WaCkY ShEnNaniGanS that made me see him visit two people

If Reck is lying about being a roleblocker:
1. He is town and has some kind of role that allows him to visit multiple players
2. He is town and has a role that he's lying about for some reason but there's some kind of WaCkY ShEnNaniGanS that made me see him visit two people
3. He is mafia and is lying about being a roleblocker for some reason and there are some kind of WaCkY ShEnNaniGanS that made me see him visit two people
4. He is mafia and is lying about being a roleblocker but has a different targeting role.

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reck if for some reason you are holding back role-related information please do not out that information

UNLESS THERE IS A FACTOR THAT YOU KNOW OF that would cause the mod to tell me that you visited two people.

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i'd really prefer not to full claim

p.edit: i 100% absolutely did not visit ythan last night so that's wild

yes i blocked n1. VPB.

well, this isn't a bastard game to my knowledge so you *did* visit Ythan last night. whether that is because of wacky hijinks or because you're a mafia roleblocker is what is up for discussion here.

also: I also tracked you N1 and my role was blocked. you can obviously see why your claim of roleblocker here is... concerning.... to me.

PEdit: you not fullclaiming is obviously fine with me because I explicitly asked you not to do it unless it explains why I tracked you to two different players last night. you claim that it doesn't so.... no worries.

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i'd really prefer not to full claim

p.edit: i 100% absolutely did not visit ythan last night so that's wild

yes i blocked n1. VPB.

well, this isn't a bastard game to my knowledge so you *did* visit Ythan last night. whether that is because of wacky hijinks or because you're a mafia roleblocker is what is up for discussion here.

also: I also tracked you N1 and my role was blocked. you can obviously see why your claim of roleblocker here is... concerning.... to me.

PEdit: you not fullclaiming is obviously fine with me because I explicitly asked you not to do it unless it explains why I tracked you to two different players last night. you claim that it doesn't so.... no worries.

Is it possible to have two role blockers in a mini theme game? Also are there any roles that can target more than one person besides mafia ofc cuz those can always multitask?

Is it possible to have two roleblockers in a mini theme game?

yes. there are a lot of different ways this could play out. multiple x-shot roles. 1 town and 1 scum rb. some kind of JoaT that has roleblocker shots. I'm specifically not saying "well reck has to be scum here" because there are many possibilities to explain why I have the results I have.

Also are there any roles that can target more than one person besides mafia ofc cuz those can always multitask?

This is a theme game, so literally anything is possible within the confines of "Is this bastard modding or not?". One of our flipped roles, bus driver, could be tracked as targeting two players depending on how the role PM is worded, for instance.

Also, mafia cannot always multitask. They can in this game, per the rules post. But, you should not assume that mafia can multitask in a game that does not say explicitly one way or the other.

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wait. okay.

this is gonna get me yeeted but i have to correct myself

i ORIGINALLY sent in a block on vpb, that was the PM i checked when you asked for my claim. i just checked and ORIGINALLY i blocked vpb *last night* and sent a correction in this morning (tues @ 12:38am vs wed @ 10:38am). i thought that older pm was from n1 but it was from n2.

i *did* block you n1, UT

yeet all liars etc, but I will buy this mea culpa for the time being.

right now I want to get to the bottom of why I tracked you to two players.

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in case you just outed two prs, isn't town kinda doomed now?

your impulse to have caution with revealing information is a good one, but no. this is a situation that calls for outing.

the gamestate right now:
very likely 6:3
Possibly 5:3:1
Very unlikely but still possible 6:2:1
Very very very very very unlikely 7:2.

misyeeting again will leave us at 5:3 going into the night and then 4:3 YOLO tomorrow.

I have mod-confirmed information that someone visited the player who died last night. This is the time when you out info. Leaving it secret puts town at a disadvantage. If there's a mechanical puzzle to solve that is caused by non-obvious roles, this is how you solve it.

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I targeted Reck N1 and if I wasn't blocked he would know it

please elaborate if you can

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I mean, I believe that the overwhelming likelihood here is just that Reck is lying. Especially since I caught him in two lies in a row.

but, I am trying to do my due diligence here and make sure we do not make a mistake.

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bc UT can CONFIRM i blocked him N1

I can confirm that my action was unsuccessful, not that you blocking me caused that.

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bc UT can CONFIRM i blocked him N1

I can confirm that my action was unsuccessful, not that you blocking me caused that.

you can confirm you got no result or you were told you were blocked?

I was told that I got No Result. I asked for clarification. The mod told me that "No Result" was the result I would get if I was blocked, if Reck was not targetable, or if my action did not resolve successfully for any reason.

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if Reck was not targetable

This is what I'm starting to think. Maybe he deflects actions in some way. Though it is weird you got no result and mine would target Haschel

it'd be real fun if he was a 1-shot prism but that seems too goofy to be true

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I still have not seen any convincing explanation why I saw you visit two players last night.

and because of the way you claimed, the mafia having a framer is not a reasonable explanation because they would have framed you visiting the slot that died.

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unless you have a role that explains why Reck visited two people last night, don't claim

what the actual fuck

Reck is in the yeetcannon today, so any further claims should explain why he shouldn't be

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yeah I'm pretty ready to yeet Reck into the sun for trying to talk us into massclaiming

Reck has absolutely no leverage here to demand something like that
________________________________


to anyone who is a bit on the fence as to whether or not you should massclaim:

Reck has been caught in two lies, consecutively, when pressed on his actions.

I cannot see any possible reason why a scum role would frame him for visiting a live player. in case this isn't clear, Reck has already claimed roleblocker, scum have the ability to multitask, and Reck was a near-total-consenus town read. sure, there could maybe be some kind of wacky hijinks that explain why he was at two players last night, but it's more likely that he just roleblocked Ythan and killed AGar.

sure, it's possible that he legitimately forgot who he targeted on N1. but it's far more likely that, when caught in the lie, just said "i made an oopsie ".

I've been searching for potential explanations why my night results didn't just straight up catch scum because I don't want to misyeet for a third day in a row. that doesn't mean that I don't understand that the far and away likelier explanation is just that I caught scum.

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too bad that Ythan has claimed to also have targeted AGar. that sure would make it easier.

oh well.

just on the off chance: Ythan there isn't by any miracle a chance that you'd be informed that you were blocked would you?

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holy shit is it just reck/noraa here

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We're that close to Ylo? damn alright ok. ISO time. Im going scumhunting. Be back with results sometime this afternoon.
Ur right. I shouldn't encourage a Noraa lim just to prove I'm town. I normally am willing to but since we're close to ylo, disregard that. Im not fine with a noraa lim today

noraa for the love of god

in case you just outed two prs, isn't town kinda doomed now?

your impulse to have caution with revealing information is a good one, but no. this is a situation that calls for outing.

the gamestate right now:
very likely 6:3
Possibly 5:3:1
Very unlikely but still possible 6:2:1
Very very very very very unlikely 7:2.

misyeeting again will leave us at 5:3 going into the night and then 4:3 YOLO tomorrow.

I have mod-confirmed information that someone visited the player who died last night. This is the time when you out info. Leaving it secret puts town at a disadvantage. If there's a mechanical puzzle to solve that is caused by non-obvious roles, this is how you solve it.

read the fucking thread. eventually people will stop being patient with the "oh, I'm just a newbie and don't understand things" defense.

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is there any actual confirmation that scum have daytalk here?

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by contrast mine frequently don't

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you were scum with me in 2019 but we had daytalk there. the rules also explicitly said we did.

I'm just saying, it's a closed setup so.... I'm not assuming.

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I know. I'm rereading it. Truly an all-timer.

third only to that one Reckoning game and DEFCON 4

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I mean if I'm wrong then I'm sorry, but look at this from my perspective

with the information I have and the way the beginning of today shook out... you'd want to vote you too

like.... seriously no one has any explanation why I'd see reck as having visited two players.....?

it occurs to me that given the theme of the game that like.... MAYBE I could see some kind of "infection" mechanic where "contact tracing" fucks with tracker/watcher roles, but there's nothing in my role PM that suggests that it works that way and no one has brought forward any information to suggest that it might

this sucks!

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I mean, I'm twisting myself into knots here to try to justify why me tracking a player to the dead body and then catching them in two lies shouldn't just be an immediate windmill slam yeet.

would I be doing this if reck and I weren't good friends IRL? would I be doing it if we hadn't misyeeted twice in a row?

my misgivings about this are 100% about external factors. the facts as I have them are pretty damning.

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you know what else might explain Reck not knowing who he targeted N1

if it's a situation like in a scum PT people are submitting actions for the whole scum team and Reck didn't realize that the final version of the scum action plan wasn't the one he thought it was

I also want to understand something else:

VP targets Reck with (presumably a friendly neighbor)
I target Reck with a track
Ythan targets Reck with what I assume is a fruit vendor
Reck blocks me
Annie swaps Haschel and Reck

is this what the claims are?

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I mean, I don't

know

that scum can't submit actions for the whole team because I've seen it allowed by mods before, but that does make that less likely.

regardless, a reading error would be NAI. Absent VP being able to confirm that he was not blocked N1, I am forced to assume that Reck is probably not lying about this.

do we have other things or nah?

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then for sure the only lie is the two targets, which makes me feel the same from a mechanics standpoint but worse from a behavioral one.

ugh

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did Ythan ever say who he targeted N2?

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oh, Agar, right

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vote Reck

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then for sure the only lie is the two targets, which makes me feel the same from a mechanics standpoint but worse from a behavioral one.

ugh

I kinda wanna see you talk about this, but it could wait til D4

what do you want to know

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Let BSkies answer VPB’s question first.

This was @Noraa
@UT I want you to break down what you are talking about regarding mechanics vs. behavior and how those are impacted by the knowledge of the two actions being the only inconsistency (lie I think is the wrong word in that scenario)

mechanics: reck said he targeted one player and I have mod-confirmed information that he visited two. this is obviously troubling given that scum can multitask and that the player he admitted to visiting is the N2 kill. My assumption is that he was gambling on me being a watcher and so admitted to visiting the dead guy because that's not in and of itself being damning.

behavior: I felt like he was a generally town player previously. What I was alluding to was the fact that it seemed like I caught him in a lie regarding his N1 block but there's too much WIFOM there for me to speculate and try to assign scum-blame to it.

_____________________

So my thought is: if Reck somehow flips town, there is probably a mechanic in this game that can produce false positives in a contact-tracing sort of way. Ergo, if Ythan and Reck visited AGar, I'd see Reck as having visited AGar and Ythan because they were both in contact with AGar that night.

If reck flips scum: noraa is the yeet tomorrow
If reck flips town: Ythan is the yeet tomorrow
Regardless of what happens: protective roles go on me tonight

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worth noting: my role PM specifically says I see who the player I tracked "targeted" so that's more evidence that's it's just simply that Reck is multitasking scum but I wanted to put forward what I think is an alternate explanation in the unlikely event that Reck flips town and the likely event that I'm not around tomorrow to say that.

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I'll see you in the deadthread at the start of day 4 buddy

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fucking amazing the way that the doctor didn't protect me the night I died and you chucklefucks ignored that I said "hey yeet noraa tomorrow" so I really don't feel like there was a lot more that I personally could have done since I caught the person no one suspected

great job town

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oh hey look who was right to suspect that scum didn't have daytalk

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If it were personally identifying information, we would redact it if asked. This is not something we would redact.

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do it. meta is trash.

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Noraa, you have officially been given permission to throw said hissy fit by a member of the moderating staff!

Imma definitely quote this next game we play so you have the opportunity to use this once in a lifetime opportunity XD