Newbie 2037 - Game Over

[Norfolk Boy1]

Hi all.

Here's to a good game!

[Norfolk Boy1]

that's cool, i respect that. i think its very much possible that an experienced mafia player can experiment with different playstyles here, in which case metareading them wouldn't be as effective, if that makes any sense.

Don't hang your hat on meta. I'm amazed how much stock is put into it on this site.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I have to go to work soon, will post more when I'm back in about ~6 hours.
Is it normal in these newbie games to have an SE teamed up with a newb as the scum faction? What a the chances of a SE/SE or a newb/newb pairing?

I've played on this site twice and in game 1 the scum team was newb/SE and game 2 was newb/newb.

It's safe to say it's totally random. There are only 3 SE's, so it'd just be a game of attrition if 1 was always scum.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Let’s make things interesting with some RQS

For those that don’t know, RQS is called Random Questioning Stage and it has its advantages. And this is for everyone in the playerlist. Non answers get scumread.

1. What is your overall mafia experience? Not just on this site.
2. Do you prefer playing scum/wolf or town/village?
3. In your opinion, what are some of the top things to look for when scumhunting?
4. When townhunting?
5. Is it easy or difficult for you to lie?

=======================

1. I’ve been playing the wolf version of mafia since 2006. Mafiascum.net for 5 months.
2. Town/Village
3. Apathy, inconsistencies, passiveness/aggressiveness giving the context, perfect posting, and voting patterns.
4. Disagreeableness, having one’s own mind and gut feel. Oh and a little scumminess never hurt.
5. Yes. I find it very difficult to lie and work to just not do it.

RQS is a new one to me and isn't on the Mafia Wiki.

To answer your questions:

1.I played a handful of basic games on a wrestling forum 10 years ago. This is my 3rd game on this website.

2.Town, specifically VT. I struggle with the pressure that comes with a scum or power role and just prefer to be able to post unfiltered without stressing over what people will read into my posts.

3.I'm not going to share the tells that I look for, but I immediately scumread people who post something like

Non answers get scumread.

4.Application of logic

5.Easy to post, but I agonise over it for an age before posting.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Sorry for the triple post.

ItalianoVD, do you dislike RVS?

[Norfolk Boy1]

Also Italiano I’m not gonna say it’s a scum read on you but the questions on what people look for when town hunting/scum hunting pings me as something a scum would ask to try and play to the townie way each person describes

Is the RQS the basis for your vote or did it influence it at all?

[Norfolk Boy1]

She voted for ItalianoVD before the RQS saga even came into the equation. How could it possibly be the basis for her vote?

You're quite right. That was meant for Rockhopper.

[Norfolk Boy1]

And why no answer of 3 and 4 from you? @NorfolkBoy

I answered 4. I'm not answering 3 as there's no need to reveal to scum what pings me as scumtell.

[Norfolk Boy1]

And I think scum will play the way they’re gonna play without input from the town. I highly doubt they’re in their chat waiting for someone to post what’s scummy and do the opposite.

But you do recognise that the question you posed could be giving scum pointers?

[Norfolk Boy1]

Also Italiano I’m not gonna say it’s a scum read on you but the questions on what people look for when town hunting/scum hunting pings me as something a scum would ask to try and play to the townie way each person describes

Is the RQS the basis for your vote or did it influence it at all?

Can you explain explain this question? His vote was at post 15 and Italiano's RQS post was 25.

Already explained - it was meant for Rockhopper.

[Norfolk Boy1]

quote]I read a game where you were scum with Redados. Did you ever look at any of the town players ideas, scenarios, and hypotheticals and say “hey that’s smart, I should/could do that.

Yeah - it's clear I did, particularly in the scum PT for that game. I subbed in on night 2, so it was easier, but my main tactic for the last dayphase in particular was to manipulate Fredrick's philosophy of 'no helpful posts = scum' into him joining a wagon with me.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I'm curious to see his response/reaction

You've prefaced it as being a temporary vote, I don't see you getting much from that.

I don't see an issue with putting him at E-2 (I played a game here where someone was E-2 within 20 posts) but be firm with it.

[Norfolk Boy1]

And where did that get you?

Haha, I was the runner up in that game.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Padwag is right: the chess match is just a chess match.

Standard newbie game rules are that all factions/teams within a game are allowed uninterrupted talk through a PT. I can't see there being a need for super secret code within a game.

Unless i'm wrong and they're actually scum with gigantic balls.

[Norfolk Boy1]

And that's fine. I don't necessarily agree with you, but it hardly matters as I don't feel like we're debating a big game changing moment that will cause the scum to be revealed.

[Norfolk Boy1]

If right now we were minutes away from deadline and everyone was E-1 with only you left to vote (ignore the maths on this), who would you vote for?

Pedit - this is aimed at ItalanoVD

[Norfolk Boy1]

Billy's stream of consciousness posting is what stands out to me. Is it something he normally does?[/quote]
I had this exact thought, because whilst it's a great method of keeping your responses clean and directly to the point it's a cracking way to boost your activity.

Anyway, the answer is yes. I checked game 2028 and he did the same thing.

I like it. No room for confusion over what he's responding to and less chance of his questions being missed.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I screwed the quote up.

Rockhopper, that was a response to 182.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I didn't read that far. I was just looking for the continuous posts.

[Norfolk Boy1]

No worries.

I didn't think it was alignment related, but as you say, it stood out. I like it as a posting style; very clean and easy to follow.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Do you consider it alignment related?

[Norfolk Boy1]

Face, do you play on a phone or laptop/PC?

I'm on a phone and I often struggle with the site, particularly quoting and post formatting. The 'one thing at a time' formula in Billy's posts suits me in that regard.

[Norfolk Boy1]

At least that's a contribution from Dunnstral, even if it's a copy of Rockhopper's 'gut read' vote.

Dunnstral and Rockhopper - any justification or logical reasoning for your votes?

[Norfolk Boy1]

My justification is that you are giving analysis but it doesn't to anything. You are going with the flow and keeping up with the conversation,

Excellent read there, but also one that could easily be attributed to yourself, mini, bakslash and maybe padwag.

It's actually more a case of scum jumping on the easiest wagon, isn't it? Less work to do than starting your own.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Rocky, Dunnstral and Italiano - if i'm scum, who is my scumbuddy?

[Norfolk Boy1]

Rocky, Dunnstral and Italiano - if i'm scum, who is my scumbuddy?

I don’t partner hunt, but you can tell

us

.

Don't be weak. See it through - name a name.

[Norfolk Boy1]

It’s not weak. I don’t partner hunt.

Town don't dodge questions and if you're town, you need to find 2 scum.

So, go on - who are you currently reading for scum role 2?

[Norfolk Boy1]

I just dont think i have every played a game where someone got to E-2 so quickly. So it amazed me that it happened so early

2029 - pretty sure it happened even quicker there.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Rocky, Dunnstral and Italiano - if i'm scum, who is my scumbuddy?

2 of 3 have posted since this and the other is Dunnstral who is a part timer.

Somebody must be bold enough to share their latest reads on who is scum 2 if i'm scum 1, even if it's a 'gut read'.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Also, I have no problem with being eliminated, but lets be sensible and give it another calendar day or 2 before we go through the E1 process.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I like Billy P. He's like a bear sniffing around for trout.

Also, thanks for answering, padwag. But it's Dunnstral, Rockhopper and Italiano that should be answering. Their silence is well worth noting down.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Being okay with being eliminated is not game solving at all

It is for the other 6 townies I leave behind. There's loads of information here to work with.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I'd been waiting as i've had a top scumread for a while. My interest moved on trying to identify scum 2.

However, i've realised that I need to consider an alternative meaning to what I believed to be a scumslip, so i've paused on that.

However, both of my scumteams involve the same person.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[Norfolk Boy1]

But he didn’t know Billy was scum that game, which is an important fact to miss,

when trying to meta dive

.

Except, as i've said twice, I wasn't interested in alignment when reviewing that old game. I was interested in the format, not the content.

Top quality misrep, though.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Billy, in response to your questions:

293 - I can't show my hand just yet, but if we don't make any progress by the time I get home from work, i'll be forced to.

295 - as said before, I don't consider the format of your posting to

[Norfolk Boy1]

Sorry - phone posting with fat fingers.

The rest of that was:

relate to alignment, it was purely to answer the question on if it's something you do. Like I said, I like it.

[Norfolk Boy1]

We're starting to run out of time.

Is someone declaring intent or has it become clearer what's happening and another wagon is being pursued?

[Norfolk Boy1]

Okay, let me explain.

Firstly, i'm not scum. I'm Town Tracker. I wasn't subtle in crumbing it either. If you notice, I don't really say that i'm thinking things, I say i'm seeing them:

I don't

see

an issue with putting him at E-2 (I played a game here where someone was E-2 within 20 posts) but be firm with it.

I can't

see

there being a need for super secret code within a game.

Don't be weak.

See

it through - name a name.

Post 190 supplements this, when I confirmed that I was

looking

for specific things and post 218 when I compliment Dunnstral on recognising that i'm keep tabs (tracking) everything.

I've used a slightly more obsure crumb:

Haha, I was the

runner up

in that game.

Runner, as in

track

and field.

I've also used obvious crumbs:

I didn't think it was alignment related, but as you say, it stood out. I like it as a posting style; very clean and

easy to follow.

And of course, the blatent crumb:

I like Billy P.

He's like a bear sniffing around for trout.

Also, thanks for answering, padwag. But it's Dunnstral, Rockhopper and Italiano that should be answering. Their silence is

well worth noting down.

So, onto who is actually scum:

My first scum read was based on a scumslip I saw. However, it's dawned on me that it could be a townslip and i'm not willing to potentially expose the second power role.

At the time I was so sure of my initial read. That's why I moved onto looking for scum 2. There is no doubt that scum is on my wagon at that point, that's why I pressured Rockhopper, Dunnstral and Italiano.

Rockhopper has made some pro town moves and appears to have got where i'm coming from. Dunnstral is just a lurker and a little lazy, so that leaves Italiano.

RQS was a great way for scum to get peoples townreads and scumtells in the open, all whilst giving off an air of scumhunting and giving him a ready made reason to scumread those that didn't comply.

He was then fixed on Billy, voting for him, casing him and saying he was likely to vote for him come days end. Then, just because a mini wagon formed on me, he jumped on it with no reason of his own and has tunnelled ever since, even declaring intent when there was loads of time left.

[Norfolk Boy1]

.

If anyone answers this for him I'm gonna lose my shit. Norfolk why did you post 262?

What did you mean by that/hope to accomplish there?

If i'm eliminated, there's so much to work with. That's why I didn't mind being eliminated.

However, I held out hope that there would be a realisation that I was town and my wagon would dissipate without my having to claim.

I asked for sensibleness and an extra day because I hoped that I wouldn't have to claim, but if I did, we had enough time for an educated elimination.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I was definitely hoping that people would be able to sense what was happening without me having to explicitly say it.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I was definitely hoping that people would be able to sense what was happening without me having to explicitly say it.

You saying you're happy being the D1 elim certainly didn't soft pr to me. If anything, it was a VT soft which is what I was talking about when I said it was negative utility for us to move off of you.

I dont think I buy it. This isn't a town pr play to basically soft vt and then to recalibrate. A town pr doesn't say they're comfortable being the D1 elim. This was a scum gambit that didn't work and so you rethought it. I mean you set us up to be scattering at EoD. You said you're comfortable being the elim, but to wait until 24 hours before forcing a claim. You knew you gonna claim a pr so it was going to be a last minute redirected wagon that gives scum maximum control. And you tried to push it to Italiano who I think is town here which also fits with a scum agenda.

VOTE: Norfolk

I dont buy the claim. I think this is survivalist.

48 hours, not 24. Important distinction, that.

And obviously you're wrong, as will likely soon be proven.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Mini, i'm not re-explaining the point of the game to you.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I'm liking the look of a mini/italiano scum team and these are worth reading again:

*mini RVS votes italiano and they have a chat - excellent distancing posting to make it look like they haven't spoken in a while (posts 15, 36, 37)

*mini 'questions' RQS and italiano doesn't grill the responses as he did with the Town Tracker (posts 40, 49, 64 and 65)

*both call out Dunstrall in sync (posts 61 and 66)

*mini tries to wriggle out of her earlier 'questioning' (post 98)

*both pressure Rockhopper in sync (posts 99 and 102)

*Italiano chucks out a townread on mini with no reasoning beyond "she's always been town before" (post 171)

Also, both are still voting for a claimed town PR despite nobody offering a counter. Billy at least offered a reason for not believing my claim, even though my claim has a 50/50 chance of being immediately uncovered (which it won't, because it's the truth, as they both know).

[Norfolk Boy1]

Well iirc I don’t think I’ve played with you before if I have it’s been a while. I just can’t wrap my head around the thought of a PR that is actually valuable to have to help track down scum being okay with themselves being eliminated especially on D1. And before you go on about explaining the game to me again, I have never played a game with a PR being okay with being eliminated at all let alone a D1 elimination. You say you’re leaving enough information behind for us other townies to work with but Wouldn’t it be better for us to have your help aswell? Until I get an answer to this I am not unvoting

We have played together before, but I don't think you were able to play for long so subbed out early. That was the game I referenced a couple of times where someone was E2 within 20 or so posts.

Obviously, it's better for town that i'm still involved, but you have to remember that at the time, it was 24 hours to deadline, lots of slots were silent and I was E1 (and don't forget who put me there). I had to claim and I had to explain. I've subsequently been proven right because whenever in the game I flip, there's loads of information to go on.

As for the post tags, i'll try to do that, but i'm exclusively playing on mobile and using anything other than Quick Reply takes me an age. I'll try to do it from now on, though.

[Norfolk Boy1]

UNVOTE:

There's been a few instances of rapid wagonning in this game so far and i'm going to track back to see any recurring themes.

Also, Velkommen to Norwegianboy.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Sadly not.

When looking at the E1 wagon that formed on me, do any of the people on that wagon ping you as scum? I struggle to believe that it's 4 town, voting town with 3 scum watching and laughing.

[Norfolk Boy1]

voting town with 3 scum watching and laughing.

3 scum? All newbie games have 2 scum.

I know that. Phone typo.

[Norfolk Boy1]

If you were to purely go off of the wagons that formed fairly quickly (in terms of continuous posts), it's Dunstrall that looks most like a scummy wagon jumper.

I completely missed when first reading that Billy Pilgrim was seemingly encouraging a further role claim in 306. It wasn't a full push for a role claim, but it doesn't quite look right.

I'm not sure where i'm voting right now.

[Norfolk Boy1]

does anyone know how much longer we have to eliminate someone?

10 hours I think

Where did you get that from? The last post from Micc still had the game paused at 2 days, didn't it?

[Norfolk Boy1]

Also, I probably won't be awake for the end of the day, so please don't hammer me if I don't claim if someone declares intent

I really don't like this. It's very flimsy.

If we applied this rule to the whole playlist, we'd only have 4 players to choose from.

I'm still not townreading Italiano. Post 451 is either manipulative or condescending (or both) and is deliberately putting me down a path of Dunnstral and Rockhopper. Italiano is townreading Dunnstral according to post 437, so it's either an attempt to push me into voting Rockhopper and kickstart that wagon or its an effort to position me for more poor quality 'scumreading'.

Micc, please can we have a votecount?

[Norfolk Boy1]

You said you don’t know where to vote. You gonna figure that out soon? And why do you need a votecount to vote?

Yep, that's all I needed.

VOTE: Italiano

[Norfolk Boy1]

Cabd will be helping out as backup mod, and will be the main contact for this game until probably Sunday. Thanks again for your patience!

Hi! This is your friendly backup mod here. Please keep your hands and feet within the vehicle while the game is in motion. Please send all actions via PM to both myself and Micc until further notice. Thanks!

Could someone please tell us the deadline?

[Norfolk Boy1]

Norway is right: consensus is needed.

For me, I still prefer an Italiano elimination, but would change to a Wiyvern or Dunstrall vote if it becomes clear that's where we're heading.

I would also vote Rockhopper if absolutely necessary. But only in a hammer or no elimination scenario.

Pedit: thanks Cabd.

Pedit: Italiano, kind of. I was trying to say that we should be prepared to vote without a claim. There's only a handful of players who can genuinely claim to be a regular contributor to the game so it's not necessarily feasible that we have time for the full 'E1, claim, discuss' process.

[Norfolk Boy1]

@Norfolk why dunnstral?

Here's why:

If you were to purely go off of the wagons that formed fairly quickly (in terms of continuous posts), it's Dunstrall that looks most like a scummy wagon jumper.

Bakslash, are you sticking or twisting with your vote?

[Norfolk Boy1]

VOTE: rockhopper

You were already voting Rockhopper.

[Norfolk Boy1]

VOTE: wiyvern

E-1.

[Norfolk Boy1]

In the absence of anyone disputing any claims, i've got to vote Rockhopper.

I've felt since the beginning that post 56 was a scumslip that we're in setup B (as that has no masons) and knowing my role, I knew that there was a 66.7% chance of it being setup B and 33.3% chance of it being setup A. I then paused this because I worried that Rockhopper might have been TFN, but he hasn't disputed either claim, and there's no chance of a TFN/Doctor combo, so I think my original read was right and it's a scumslip.

The post in question is:

I honestly don't know. I think being the informed minority, there's a psychological burden on the mafia of trying to scumhunt

knowing fully well that there is no other secret faction to hunt down

, while having survival as the top priority to achieve their wincon at the same time. I plan to try and deduce on this basis.

VOTE: Rockhopper

Pedit: bugger

[Norfolk Boy1]

I was too late. I need to get alaptop. Phone posting takes too long.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Because set ups A and C do have a secret faction for scum to hunt (masons).

[Norfolk Boy1]

I used to dismiss Masons as pointless but they brilliantly beat me in my last game, so I saw it as a key point.

[Norfolk Boy1]

What does VCA mean?

[Norfolk Boy1]

And yes, it's setup B3.

With the setup confirmed, Rockhopper is my top pick for elimination.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I understand why people would analyse wagons.

There's no doubt that scum was on my E1 wagon - I simply don't buy the theory someone tried to peddle about 'town working together' as opposed to 'scum pushing the wagon'.

In relation to Facebones' last words on potential for scum out of Italiano and Norway, it's more likely to be Italiano. Firstly, Norway tried to unvote when he was unsure about Rockhopper, which I don't think scum would fo and secondly, I tracked him and he didn't go anywhere, which wholst not clearing him completely, reduces the odds on him being scum.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Rockhopper going "Facebones was so obviously town" is one of my favourite scum tactics.

I don't see where this "Dunnstral is town" vibe is coming from. I think he's quite dangerous as his main contributions have been to shrug, agree with someone else's thoughts and then jump on a wagon.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I suppose that logically speaking, scum have to send their most null or townread player to commit kills.

There's nobody more invisible than Bakslash.

[Norfolk Boy1]

In fairness, it's pretty crucial now.

I'm dead tonight so there's no additional information coming for D3.

[Norfolk Boy1]

I don't see Bakslash as scum. There's lurking and there's being so absent that it radiates. Do scum draw attention to themselves like that?

[Norfolk Boy1]

@Norfolk: I’m curious as to why you tracked Norwegian instead of me when it seemed as if I was your highest scumread? Seems like something you’d want to check.

I felt tracking you when I so obviously scumread you was a waste. You'd have to have a set the size of watermelons to go out killing people when you knew the tracker was on to you.

I chose Norway because I didn't think that he'd see it coming, I still don't like Billy P trying to get a second PR claim after I claimed and because his relationship with you reminds me of one in a previous game I played whereby a town SE and a scum SE mutually townread each other because they had similar posting styles. I can't see you both being scum, but i'm onboard with the notion that one of you is. If it was Norway, I hoped i'd have caught him in the act.

In retrospect, I wish i'd tracked Mini or Dunstrall.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Okay, that’s not bad reasoning. You’re wrong about me though, but that’s not bad reasoning at all.

This is why you keep pinging me. This reads like an endorsement of my post, which I don't want or need.

Right now, the only person I can't see being scum is Bakslash. I'm leaning towards Norway as town but beyond that, there is reason to scumread everyone.

I'm sticking to my theory on Rockhopper for now.

VOTE: Rockhopper

[Norfolk Boy1]

If it comes down to it I'll go Rockhopper over Bakslash. What do you think of Italiano from the previous page?

I think the response was garbage, but good information to have in terms of the tone of the response.

Dunnstral, please stick your neck out and offer me some reads. I'll go first:

Rockhopper
ItalianoVD
Dunnstral/Mini Megabyte

NorwegianBoyEE

Bakslash

Also, i'm sorry but I don't understand what Rockhopper is saying in 838. Anyone?

[Norfolk Boy1]

You have 4 strong scumreads Norfolk?
You realize there are only 2 scum right.

I wouldn't be surprised if any of the 4 flipped scum. Right now, I still think Rocky scumslipped. He's top of the list. My Italiano read is well known and there are good reasons to be suspicious and scumread Mini and Dunnstral. I'd currently like to see us eliminating from the top down.

Like I said earlier, I don't think Bakslash is scum and i'm leaning that way on you.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Also, i'm sorry but I don't understand what Rockhopper is saying in 838. Anyone?

That's the elim sequence we should follow to win

Thank you. What did gg mean?

[Norfolk Boy1]

I'm still not on board with a Bakslash wagon and am not willing to hammer.

Anyone on any wagon/not voting willing to budge if it came down to it?

[Norfolk Boy1]

Dunnstral, please stick your neck out and offer me some reads.

This was ignored. I ask again.

[Norfolk Boy1]

So, both Mini and Bakslash haven't posted in over 2 days.

Bakslash has done this, despite being E-1. He hasn't even bothered to drop in and vote Rockhopper, bringing Rocky to E-1.

I might be naive, but scum aren't that apathetic. I can't see him flipping scum.