Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Game Over!

[Infinity 324]

You really fucking big brained all of us.

VOTE: hoopla

Hard to tell how serious her posts have been, but something feels off about them

[Infinity 324]

it's early and those are subject to change ^

Speaking of not-townpings, why feel the need to mention this?

[Infinity 324]

I'm with skitter on this, I think multitasking is pretty much optimal no matter what.

PEdit: hi!

[Infinity 324]

Nah, just making an observation that's meant to spark conversation (like it did!).

And I've been scum in x|y setups twice and multitasking is vastly more useful imo, you can get a p decent sense of the spread of roles just from knowing where scum sits in the draft + like two flips/claims

Also obligatory max one scum in each of the sets of 4's and 5's, imo

Multitasking is more useful if you assume scum are never picking the same numbers, but I feel like informed would be the optimal choice if they deliberately tanked their PR chances by trying to hide in the multi-picks

Scum is hoopla + {jv, tgp, penguin}

I think we solved the game

[Infinity 324]

Someone explain to me this uncrowned wagon he's my only townread

[Infinity 324]

Maybe they wanted a better fakeclaim, and thought that claiming the "town counterpart" to their role wouldn't work for whatever reason? Idk

Hoopla, thoughts on uncrowned?

[Infinity 324]

Makes sense.

VOTE: skitter though I agree wit the concept, the way he said “icky vote” felt a bit like buddying to me.

[Infinity 324]

I feel like a more natural response would’ve been to ask the reasons, it’s a bit early to be emotionally attached to your reads in the way you seemed to be.

[Infinity 324]

I feel like a more natural response would’ve been to ask the reasons, it’s a bit early to be emotionally attached to your reads in the way you seemed to be.

- i did ask for reasons, part of the reason i voted is because his response was rather unsatisfactory
- idk what you mean by 'emotionally attached to my reads'

Yeah knowing penguin might explain it. Idk how to explain it better, the fact that your first response was to go “icky vote” pinged me for some reason.

Why was the response unsatisfactory? Do you think scum are more likely to vote without reasons for the sake of “info” or “reactions”?

[Infinity 324]

Oh you explained it UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, is there a reason you're not using your vote atm?

Not really, I'm waiting for more people to post alignment-relevant content.

Cool. If I told you I did the same thing to you just now to even up with me to promote discussion, would you believe it, or do you think this is scum!me worried about my votes and trying to get a counter-wagon going?

This really townpings for some reason

[Infinity 324]

[Infinity 324]

Skitter are you still feeling that penguin is scummy?

PEdit: ok

and for penguin:

Perfectly balanced, as all things should be

[Infinity 324]

Skitter vote was bad. Unvote is bad.

Not sure what you mean by passive.

By passive I mean the unvote and how to me he sort of seems like he's playing "read and react" atm rather than pushing anything himself, kind of like how Hoopla mentioned he was piggybacking off of some of Skitter's earlier posts.

It's a playstyle thing, I'm starting to think I can get better reads by talking to people than pressuring them.

[Infinity 324]

s_s do you have reads?

[Infinity 324]

s_s do you have reads?

busywork question

I mean, s_s has posted quite a bit for having voiced no opinions on alignments.

[Infinity 324]

s_s do you have reads?

busywork question

Kind of agree actually. Infinity you say yourself there's no readable content but you're asking someone else for reads?

Never said that, I think you and penguin and maybe hoopla are towny

[Infinity 324]

I did voice the townread on you earlier and was poking at skitter but fair enough I guess

[Infinity 324]

I also feel like peta is being a bit more antagonistic than scum usually are this early.

[Infinity 324]

s_s, do you think it's important that people don't develop reads for bad reasons? (Don't remember that much about how you tend to play)

[Infinity 324]

s_s, do you think it's important that people don't develop reads for bad reasons? (Don't remember that much about how you tend to play)

[Infinity 324]

sorry, to be clear i meant in a 'trying to determine if he's town' sort of sense!

Slight over reaction I think.

I keep getting pinged by skitter for things like this, I'm thinking it's personality.

[Infinity 324]

Skitter is probably town from all this

What are you referring to?

[Infinity 324]

Skitter is probably town from all this

What are you referring to?

All their long-ass posts, I just feel scum wouldn't put all that effort in.

Do you mean hoopla? I get the feeling she's known as the setup speccer so it's kind of expected of her.

[Infinity 324]

Nah I mean skitter

Like 37 and 88?

[Infinity 324]

I'm not seeing many long posts from skitter though?

[Infinity 324]

I feel like a lot of townies jump to the conclusion that effort = town too easily

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I don't really see scum hand out reads too easily, I mostly see people scumreading people for it

[Infinity 324]

Hoopla, I'm pretty sure you're too good of a player to buy this reasoning.

[Infinity 324]

Like, what's the scum motivation here? I think it's just laziness.

[Infinity 324]

Good point, I do think it had more to do with effort than length? We'll see what jackson says

[Infinity 324]

I think s_s is town

[Infinity 324]

Why skitter?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: hoopla

[Infinity 324]

Nonsense is NAI

[Infinity 324]

Can you explain 394 a little better?

[Infinity 324]

Oh I think I agree

[Infinity 324]

penguin you can call my takes bad but calling me scum for them is a terrible take yourself

You aren't scum for having bad takes, but penguin is?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: tgp those posts were 2 minutes apart, that wasn't a continuation

[Infinity 324]

jackson wagon was hot and new
lillith wagon was an rvs wagon based essentially solely on the fact that they were first in the PL

penguin you can call my takes bad but calling me scum for them is a terrible take yourself

penguin you can call my takes bad but calling me scum for them is a terrible take yourself

You aren't scum for having bad takes, but penguin is?

and i kind of expect town!you to have good takes so the fact that you're attacking me (mislim bait) for pushing your interactions, especially your wagon hopping and hoopla interactions, feels really off to me

I think you saw 423 before you posted 424, and wanted to explain. But you pretended like you didn't see my response so it didn't look like you got caught.

Aside from that, this is just a scummy sequence of posts. I find scum more likely to say "I may be bad but not scum" since people don't like to admit they're wrong. "feels a little off" is way down in confidence from where you were just a second ago too.

[Infinity 324]

Why?

[Infinity 324]

tgp still probably town imo

don't agree with infinty 433 (the posts were within a minute of each other), but that is an argument that probably comes from town

It's 2 minutes, maybe I'm reading too much into this? Didn't like the posts anyway so

Mostly tone and the interaction with JV came off as extremely townie to me.

Interesting, I feel like scum can fake all-out aggression like that

[Infinity 324]

It's 2 minutes, maybe I'm reading too much into this?

You're definitely reading too much into it

Ok I believe you, vote stays

[Infinity 324]

Why?

I find scum more likely to say "I may be bad but not scum" since people don't like to admit they're wrong. "feels a little off" is way down in confidence from where you were just a second ago too.

This reasoning still applies, I think tgp is trying to get read as "bad town"

[Infinity 324]

penguin you can call my takes bad but calling me scum for them is a terrible take yourself

This is not quite "I may be bad but I'm not scum" but it's close enough. "Feels a little off" is something you'd use to describe a post from someone you were otherwise townreading, not a hard scumread usually.

[Infinity 324]

@mod I'm voting TGP as of 427

[Infinity 324]

@SS if you're town, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but like, you calling out skitter on her response to JV's townread on her felt over the top

Hmm? His response to that was along the lines of "This is interesting, I wonder what to think. Slightly scummy."

[Infinity 324]

@SS if you're town, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but like, you calling out skitter on her response to JV's townread on her felt over the top

Hmm? His response to that was along the lines of "This is interesting, I wonder what to think. Slightly scummy."

The fact that he called it out at all feels like not-SS to me. It also reminded me of this post:

ngl, the speed is very unnerving.

Honestly, I think the number of people who immediately popped in to express their dislike for the wagon is much more notable.

in which he avoids interacting with the wagon, similarly to how he avoided commenting on the JV wagon here.

Ok so I don't have a ton of history with s_s, but other people seem to, so this seems like something that should be easily resolved? Either town!s_s tries to solve by asking sideline questions without throwing out a ton of opinions of his own, or he doesn't. I thought it was the former based on this interaction:

s_s, do you think it's important that people don't develop reads for bad reasons? (Don't remember that much about how you tend to play)

Sorry, missed that.

Yes, extremely.

I would rather have no reads than have reads based on bad reasons.

but I don't really feel like doing the meta research so if someone who's played with s_s before could give input that'd be great.

[Infinity 324]

Jackson why are you focusing on NAI stuff so much, this is literally just about theory.

[Infinity 324]

Jackson why are you focusing on NAI stuff so much, this is literally just about theory.

I don't see it as nai but if you want to explain why that'd be neat

Like, s_s made a post about his opinion on mafia in general (i.e., that good reads are hard to get as town or fake as scum). Do you think he could be lying?

[Infinity 324]

No no that's not what I was saying, I was just saying that their wording was wrong

But how is that different from, like, a post on mafia discussion? He's giving his opinion on the game, unless you think he's lying it's totally NAI.

[Infinity 324]

Jackson why are you focusing on NAI stuff so much, this is literally just about theory.

I don't see it as nai but if you want to explain why that'd be neat

This is where I see you saying it was AI

I just feel like you might be avoiding game-relevant content, you asked about a couple of jokeposts of penguin's as well.

[Infinity 324]

All my scumleans are in the 4s lol

well

[Infinity 324]

I think I can't see through some jokes and I see it as actual content too, sorry

Oh, that's ok then. I'm still sort of curious why you were pushing on s_s though.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry, that's what I meant by pushing--you were questioning him on something that didn't seem super relevant to alignments.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry, that's what I meant by pushing--you were questioning him on something that didn't seem super relevant to alignments.

Dude I was asking because I didn't understand not because I was trying to solve them, seriously?

Ok ok

[Infinity 324]

@Skit @S_S @Infinity

sorry to be self-indulgent but do you have any thoughts on Post 552

I think it's interesting and would like to see dave's response.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: ok I’m not really getting scumvibes from tgp.

Can we really talk about whether we can elim in the 4s on d1 cause I kinda wanna get hoopla.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: davesaz

[Infinity 324]

680 feels manufactured and 691 feels like buddying.

[Infinity 324]

I think people's reasons for scumreading hoopla are not the best but I am also getting scumvibes from her.

[Infinity 324]

I think people's reasons for scumreading hoopla are not the best but I am also getting scumvibes from her.

What about her is scummy to you, then?

And if you can go a bit further, what do you think aren't good reasons for her being scumread?

It's hard to explain, but I want to say it's her level of comfort with certain things. It makes sense to not necessarily want to elim in the 4s, but I think she may be more worried about pulling a gambit since they did that before.

I think hoopla, like s_s in a way, is slow to jump to conclusions, and e.g. saying she'll sort you later since you're very active makes sense from a town perspective, since it's hard to appear towny for long periods of time when you're very active.

[Infinity 324]

since they did that before.

(since scum has done that before)

[Infinity 324]

It's hard to explain, but I want to say it's her level of comfort with certain things. It makes sense to not necessarily want to elim in the 4s, but I think she may be more worried about pulling a gambit since they did that before.

I think hoopla, like s_s in a way, is slow to jump to conclusions, and e.g. saying she'll sort you later since you're very active makes sense from a town perspective, since it's hard to appear towny for long periods of time when you're very active.

This didn't really make any sense to me. You're mentioning attributes of her posting but not saying what those attributes tell you about her alignment.

"I think town!hoopla would likely be more worried about scum pulling a gambit." Better?

[Infinity 324]

Willing to vote hoopla today, cause the vibes are strong enough. Also willing to sheep people on lilith cause I townread the people who think she's scum. I like DGB's catchup.

[Infinity 324]

I could see why she thought certain posts were towny and scummy, and her reads matched up pretty well with mine.

[Infinity 324]

There were a bunch of posts where I was like “ok, I don’t agree that this post makes someone more towny/scummy, but I see how someone could think that”.

[Infinity 324]

There were a bunch of posts where I was like “ok, I don’t agree that this post makes someone more towny/scummy, but I see how someone could think that”.

So...if dgb had made the same post but with the reads reversed you would get the same out of it?

No, it’s a mix of both...

[Infinity 324]

Good point.

[Infinity 324]

I don't think we want to lim lilith today cause she's a PR, time for a hoopla wagon?

[Infinity 324]

I don't think we want to lim lilith today cause she's a PR, time for a hoopla wagon?

but if she's a scum pr that would be a good thing wouldn't it

Town PRs are generally better for town than scum PRs are for scum. That said, there are potential mafia vigs in this setup so

Force a claim maybe?

[Infinity 324]

The way I see it, first they said they did it for the memes, then they said they did it for the memes and because they wanted to guarantee a unique number. How is that lying?

[Infinity 324]

The way I see it, first they said they did it for the memes, then they said they did it for the memes and because they wanted to guarantee a unique number. How is that lying?

They lied via omission.

Explain the scum motivation here, and explain why it’s sooo unlikely for a townie to not say their entire draft strategy.

[Infinity 324]

The way I see it, first they said they did it for the memes, then they said they did it for the memes and because they wanted to guarantee a unique number. How is that lying?

They lied via omission.

Explain the scum motivation here, and explain why it’s sooo unlikely for a townie to not say their entire draft strategy.

Read the context, they were being called sus for choosing a number like that and instead of actually defending themselves they went via the "haha lul" approach and when I called them out on it they added another response to cater to what I said. Then their posts completely changed with tone before my suspicions being called trash by everyone else and then they went back to their general attitude but except the tone was still trash for a bit.

48 looks like a joke.

[Infinity 324]

Still, my logic holds.

Wait what’s the motivation to lie then?

[Infinity 324]

790 looks like “this is NAI in general but scummy here for ~reasons~”, which is a scumtell for me. 791 is just a scumpost.

VOTE: lilith

[Infinity 324]

I feel like town just calls skitter a null read or adjust how she’s reading her instead of doing this “towny but not unfakeable” nonsense

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: lilith2013

Wait, I thought you were null reading lilith and we shouldn't elim the top draft slot?

I at least want a claim I think

[Infinity 324]

Because in my mind it's all part of the same vibe but I guess i didnt explain it sufficiently so i'm trying to again in a different wat

This is something I experience a lot as town and would be unlikely for scum to think to fake

[Infinity 324]

I mean scum already knows she’s a powerful PR

[Infinity 324]

Why so quick to compromise? We still have 3 days

[Infinity 324]

Force her to make a fakeclaim that locks her in to bad actions, or confirms her as scum.

[Infinity 324]

Actually town doesn’t have a tracker right? Honestly I feel like skitter is confident enough that we maybe just lim lilith here. But I think we should talk about it more.

PEdit: you didn’t need to put it to L-1 though?

[Infinity 324]

Actually town doesn’t have a tracker right? Honestly I feel like skitter is confident enough that we maybe just lim lilith here. But I think we should talk about it more.

PEdit: you didn’t need to put it to L-1 though?

Town could have a tracker unless there has been a JK claim I've missed.

The E-1 was a calculated risk. I thought the potential reward in reactions and discussion outweighed the risk.

Sorry, town is unlikely* to have a tracker cause I think JK is a significantly better role.

[Infinity 324]

I don't think hoopla really believes I would add "if she's town" to the end of that statement if I'm town but not when I'm scum.

[Infinity 324]

Good luck

[Infinity 324]

I don't think hoopla really believes I would add "if she's town" to the end of that statement if I'm town but not when I'm scum.

hmm.

Am I BoP’ing you too much? I feel like it’s such a level 0 thing that people get scumread for all the time but is just NAI. Like we’re clearly assuming she’s town for the sake of argument there, otherwise there’s no risk in limming Lilith.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: hoopla

back to this I guess

[Infinity 324]

Random thought that better describes why I scumread hoopla: I think she’s approaching the game pretty simplistically while appearing to be thoughtful.

[Infinity 324]

i think DGB/davesaz was the tipping point and most suspect. i probably prefer davesaz over DGB, if only because DGB is doubled up with pine.

VOTE: davesaz

How about me?

[Infinity 324]

How about me?

good point. i forgot you were on there briefly.

Was my vote scummy?

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler:

Why?

I find scum more likely to say "I may be bad but not scum" since people don't like to admit they're wrong. "feels a little off" is way down in confidence from where you were just a second ago too.

This reasoning still applies, I think tgp is trying to get read as "bad town"

penguin you can call my takes bad but calling me scum for them is a terrible take yourself

This is not quite "I may be bad but I'm not scum" but it's close enough. "Feels a little off" is something you'd use to describe a post from someone you were otherwise townreading, not a hard scumread usually.

Jackson why are you focusing on NAI stuff so much, this is literally just about theory.

Jackson why are you focusing on NAI stuff so much, this is literally just about theory.

I don't see it as nai but if you want to explain why that'd be neat

Like, s_s made a post about his opinion on mafia in general (i.e., that good reads are hard to get as town or fake as scum). Do you think he could be lying?

@lilith these felt like a townie approach to me ^

I can see it with the last two. what about the first two posts is towny?

I think I’m mostly pinged by the timing of his vote, at the height of my wagon, in response to posts that I think I’d make as either alignment - like these are all discussions we’ve had before and I’ve made probably very similar posts in multiple games (me vs SS, me vs you) and it doesn’t help me to lie there because if I’m scum and you’re town and you know I’m faking the conversation then I’m easy to catch. (this made sense in my head, sorry)

For the “towny but not unfakeable” it was more the wording which pinged me, I believe the substance of what you said but the way you said it is more likely to come from scum imo. For the thing about s_s, I don’t know your history together, but you basically said “s_s often doesn’t give stances on things, but I’d expect him to here”, without explaining why that situation was any different. That’s literally what he’s been doing all game and I thought it was just playstyle, why is the jv situation any different?

[Infinity 324]

Undoubtedly. But I'm not mafia

Found the 3P

[Infinity 324]

Mmm I love beetlejuice. Doesn’t help you find mafia very often though unfortunately.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: DGB ok

I think hoopla is scum, it really isn’t a sheep I’ve been pushing that one for a while? Davesaz is also pretty scummy. Honestly I’m proud of how many scumreads I have, I usually have none on d1

[Infinity 324]

Would talking to me help?

[Infinity 324]

Lol that’s E-2

[Infinity 324]

Oh I was just wondering if you had questions for me but ok

I do think my style involves putting a lot of info into the thread, and following my gut as for what to make of it. Which does mean a lot of questions don't lead anywhere right away but

[Infinity 324]

I enjoyed haunted village a lot since murdercat was in the game and scum was easier to find, it was the kind of game that was conducive to effort. This game everyone is so good and has meta reasons to read everyone else so it's like what do I do

[Infinity 324]

I mean... the same thing of looking for them and trying to solve slots and then pushing to guillotine those slots? like I don't think this game is necessarily harder on the face value of early-game to mid-game solving, the only reason haunted village was easy to WIN was because the setup is insanely town sided (like cmon JOAT with a vig shot is 2 ascension points, that's a joke)

Disagree, egotisi was kinda obvious scum and isis was not too difficult to find either. There’s no one on that level in this game I’m pretty sure, everyone seems to be trying pretty hard

[Infinity 324]

@inifnity the fact that you’re describing catching isis as a process of finding “obvscum” suggests to me that you’re a pretty good scumhunter as I think isis is generally strong as scum, and you claiming difficulty here after saying she was “easy” if anything makes me think you’re scummier

Egotisi in that game was p scummy tho, so I’ll give u that

Isis lurked most of d1 though, I doubt it was her best scumgame

I really can’t find scum if they try hard.

[Infinity 324]

I’m gonna try to case hoopla in a bit if only to show menal that I’m trying

[Infinity 324]

Lil, what do you think of infinity? What did you make of skitter’s points on his being town?

There was some earlier stuff in his ISO that pinged me and I thought his vote on me was really scummy. I think I responded to skitter’s quotes already - there was like one set of posts that I thought was fine but the other set I didn’t really see town motivation for

Ok can we talk this though? Not how town talks about a scumread. Looks like she’s trying to give lip service to skitter’s points without incorporating them into her read.

[Infinity 324]

also, just look at this: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

look how delicious, how tasty the takes are! how he has scumreads/leans and tries to explain them and to build support for them! where he's actively engaged and has a desire to figure out who the uninformed faction are!

compare and contrast to this game where he's like, making little comments, excusing a lack of reads or only really offering them when prompted, not doing much of anything to build support for flipping them, and is generally just not trying v hard

This post really got to me tbh

Y'all are about to see high effort infinity whether you want to or not

[Infinity 324]

Also i'm intrigued that scum picked informed, i prob would have picked multitasking

you're lucky you voted correctly, otherwise i would be all over this.

The fact that she says this and then keeps pushing on skitter for it is like ???

It just felt off, it's enough to vote on at this stage of the game and I'm not sure why she didn't.

enthusiastic & busy, which is usually a good sign early.

i do think a couple of his questions seem surface-level, though. in some ways that is nature of the beast for early game discussions; everyone has to start somewhere.

but these sort of questions seem like meaningless busywork:

With this thought process in mind, how many scum do you think there is between myself (14) Infinity (23) and Petapan (100000)?

Ok I liked this post at first, but it's actually a problem I have with a lot of hoopla's posting. It looks nuanced on the surface, but it's not really saying much. And she doesn't really follow up on this worry; her read instead evolves to "active poster and will look at later".

Why is that weird thought more likely to come from scum than town?

looks to me like he threw out a surface-level offhand 'read' on skitter, then when someone pressed him on it, he just made up some BS and doubled down on it when pressed again.

i think if this was a genuine town observation, it's more likely for him to have had this thought about me (someone who has actually posted walls).

She's clearly thinking about this and trying to get into JV's head, but the scum motivation isn't there. Like why doesn't scum!JV say this about hoopla instead? Why don't they just say nothing?

dunnstral

- played a game as scum against him recently, and he was a dominant voice on D1 that seemed quite obviously town. granted, i had confirmed info that game which can sometimes trick you into thinking someone is more town than they actually are, but i haven't seen similar town energy from him yet.

uncrowned

- i'm a believer in awarding town points for super active players (as annoying as they are). a few of his posts have felt cosmetic, but i suppose when you throw out as many nets as he does, some will come back empty. i don't know. i've been skimming his posts recently, and i shamelessly admit to this fact, if only as passive-aggressive way to guilt-trip him into a "quality over quantity" mindset. regardless, as most active poster, he gets a pass for now.

infinity 324

- i think his handling of the jackson virgo episode was very level-headed (given i now realise JV is prob-town). i think he could have easily been sucked into going along with my logic, or at least not played devil's advocate in a way to throw the brakes on what could have been a fast wagon if there was less resistance. leaning town.

petapan

- i have a vague uneasiness with peta's willingness to go to bat for my parade of naked voting. a part of me feels like it's early buddying, but it could also be we both share a similar philosophy about voting/wagoning. leaning scum so far. she also tricked me into attacking a fellow member of the 4 bracket!

Clearly shows a willingness to use nuance and be thoughtful, but she uses it inconsistently. Often I use nuance/thoughtfulness inconsistently as scum because if I used it all the time, it would lead me to having scumreads on all my buddies since I have more information.

townleaning on Infinity because i think he's making valid and helpful points and his mindset seems to be solvey, with genuine attempts to find town and scum. i don't think i have any chance at successfully reading SS

because he's a very mechanical player and my reads on those are generally quite bad

- if i had to give a read, extremely light townlean. dave is slightly weird because they seem to be focusing on me to a greater extent than they should be, and null on dunnstral because i don't have enough from them yet.

ah, so that's why your radar is off about me. i appreciate your candour.

This feels like discrediting and is sort of a weird thing to bring up as town

current status: sipping a coffee and reading through skitter's lilith-links.

i'm trusting skitter taking the lead on this one. skitter's a good pick for town, and i'm generally willing to sheep good town players on specific meta-claims like this (particularly on D1 when my alternative is usually utility-executing).

Why is she asking for/reading lilith's meta if she wasn't going to use it? I'm willing to sheep skitter on lilith, as I've said, but hoopla's pretending that she's trying to come to her own conclusions.

a couple people picked up that this looked like a scumslip:

Actually town doesn’t have a tracker right? Honestly I feel like skitter is confident enough that we maybe just lim lilith here. But I think we should talk about it more.

PEdit: you didn’t need to put it to L-1 though?

turns out that was just a typo?

but!

when i was reading the latest posts

this

actually caught my eye as a perspective slip:

I mean scum already knows she’s a powerful PR

does this imply he knows lilith is town? or am i out to lunch here? someone help me.

I've pointed out that I didn't like this earlier, but I also don't like how easily hoopla buys that the first isn't a scumslip. Like why couldn't I lie that it was a typo? I think these two should be equally likely to be a scumslip from a town perspective.

Am I BoP’ing you too much? I feel like it’s such a level 0 thing that people get scumread for all the time but is just NAI. Like we’re clearly assuming she’s town for the sake of argument there, otherwise there’s no risk in limming Lilith.

i don't know. maybe? i'm definitely guilty of reading too much into things sometimes.

I've played one game with hoopla a few years ago. If I really shouldn't be expecting hoopla to use more nuance, I think she should be pushing me more on it. In reality, a lot of my expectations come from this game, but it hasn't been something I've been able to articulate until now.

[Infinity 324]

1105 is how I approach scumreads as town.

[Infinity 324]

I've played one game with hoopla a few years ago. If I really shouldn't be expecting hoopla to use more nuance, I think she should be pushing me more on it. In reality, a lot of my expectations come from this game, but it hasn't been something I've been able to articulate until now.

To elaborate on this a bit more, I think hoopla is giving more validity to my reasoning since she knows it’s leading to a correct conclusion (i.e. that she’s scum).

[Infinity 324]

PP, why the unvote? We have <2 days left, it's compromise crunch time imo.

[Infinity 324]

why the swap?

I think we need to compromise atm, we don't have a ton of time and while DGB is pretty low on the list, there could still be a claim to evaluate.

[Infinity 324]

I’m pretty sure menal’s SR on me is genuine, but it probably started before he saw his role PM.

[Infinity 324]

I thought it was an obvious joke lol

[Infinity 324]

Mena you are not going to ignore me after you made me start tryharding

[Infinity 324]

my davesaz vote yesterday was mostly gut/PoE on the singletons, but this puts into words what i'm seeing:

Dave is making kinda oppurtunistic votes, and is kinda like

watching this game from a sort of meta/birds-eye view perspective

but isnt trying to actively solve himself really imo

it could be a personality thing like he claims, but it reminds of a habit/style i used to find myself gravitate towards in some of my old scum games.

Hoopla continues to try to find excuses to scumread people. Meta is available, you know...

[Infinity 324]

Davesaz is someone I’m not sure on, his recent posting has been pretty towny. I’m gonna ISO him tonight.

[Infinity 324]

davesaz has a towny tone and seems unconcerned with what people think of him, which seems towny. Nowhere does he try to look useful, it seems like he's just commenting on stuff that he thinks is important.

Yeah that looks weird enough to vote and see what happens.
VOTE: JacksonVirgo

Or make a big wagon and see what comes of it.

Reminder @whomever didn't like my Jackson vote.
@rest, it doesn't work unless the wagon stays at least for a while.

Voting the biggest wagon without big reasons to scumread the wagonee is something that could catch a lot of suspicion, but davesaz doesn't seem to care about that. He does this again later on the lilith wagon, which I pointed out earlier but am just now realizing is consistent.

Spoiler:

how are we at 15 pages

i swear

i didn't get the daystart pm that long ago

the entire lilith wagon feels manufactured and VOTE: penguinpower is pinging me especially hard, as is hoopla for what boils down to opportunistic wagon hopping.

Starts off highly apologetic. Why such emphasis?

i think JV is town, because it seems like their wagon started as a town-driven CW to lillith before hoopla jumped onto it.

This early in the game I don't think that thinking of wagons as CWs is a town oriented mindset. In the town mindset it's a CW if and only if you suspect the target of the 1st wagon. In the early game we have multiple wagons which are on unknown alignments and we don't know whether the 2nd one is in response to the 1st one unless it's either stated directly as such or if there are signs that it's competitive.

i think JV is town, because it seems like their wagon started as a town-driven CW to lillith before hoopla jumped onto it.

sorry, let me rephrase this with some more clarity. basically, i think JV's wagon began with town (lillith and petapan) and i think hoopla is scum that jumped on it. because hoopla put a vote down there, it makes me townlean on JV.

Indirectly scumreading Hoopla but nowhere in this ISO is it made clear why Hoopla would be a scumread.

jackson wagon was hot and new
lillith wagon was an rvs wagon based essentially solely on the fact that they were first in the PL

penguin

you can call my takes bad but calling me scum for them is a terrible take

yourself

This is indicative of scum caught for the wrong reason. Though it is pretty weak for that tell coming from someone who hasn't really been under heavy suspicion. I'm not the only one who thought this.

apologies town driven cw is probably the worst way i could have worded it ever

a new wagon started by town that scum!hoopla jumped on

Again with the apologies. I don't think I have played with TGP enough times to be able to say for certain, but this is pretty early in the game to be so worried about how one's posting looks and it seems perhaps out of character.

The TGP case looks a bit stretchy, but it does make sense from a town perspective to focus on your #1 scumread. I find that having strong scumreads often motivates town to do more.

680 feels manufactured and 691 feels like buddying.

680 is extremely precise, you're not wrong there. Have you seen the glory of my precision before? It seems like perhaps not.
I don't give compliments often. Would you look at Uncrowned's posting and say it's low signal high noise? Sometimes the truth must be spoken.

That said, I do appreciate Hoopla's response. I often say we have two ears (eyes) and one mouth (keyboard) for a reason, and there is much value in reading much and saying little.

This response, again, seems unconcerned with suspicion. He pushes back in a way that doesn't discredit me, but in a way that's proud of his playstyle.

2.75 days left and I disapprove of waiting until last minute.
If you want it to happen I think you need to be doing something more to encourage it.
If it isn't going to happen then I think you need to be doing something somewhere else.

This is protown and the urgency here is more likely to come from town ime.

I can hit you in the face with it if necessary. Better than 90% of the time people town read me they are scum.

I often say we have two ears (eyes) and one mouth (keyboard) for a reason, and there is much value in reading much and saying little.

This, plus think 7th grader at a dance, sitting off to the side and hoping nobody comes over. That's my personality (not an act, RL personality). If someone else has already said it, I'm unlikely to comment or try to say it differently. Unless there is an obvious disagreement or misunderstanding. I will jump on a soapbox when there is something to jump up and down about but if not then don't expect anything.

I know there will be people who think it's suspicious, and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it.

Again, doesn't give a shit what people think.

I'd like to do hoopla or lilith today tbh, but I'm willing to compromise on DGB.

[Infinity 324]

skitter talk to me about lilith? Is the wagon thing the only reason you think she's town?

[Infinity 324]

I've kind of liked the few posts dunnstral has, but I suppose I'd be willing to compromise there as well.

[Infinity 324]

There's only so much depth/pushing you can do when you're not here very much. Though I may be biased because of the hoopla vote.

[Infinity 324]

We're gonna have to no-elim eventually, but I think it's better to get more information early.

[Infinity 324]

If your words don't show that you care about people's perception of you, as scum, your actions should. Otherwise you get scumread, generally.

[Infinity 324]

Right.

Going to sleep now, will be busy most of tomorrow but can check the thread to move my vote around and such.

[Infinity 324]

@Infinity

Earlier, you gave a towncasing of sorts for Dave, saying that his lack of care for how he appeared to other people was why he seemed townie to you.

Contrast that with your play, where you seemed like you felt the need to prove yourself after Mena said you weren't as actively engaged in this game as the other one where you helped find scum.

As I said, I don't really think "not caring" about other people's reads is a towntell, but you seem to. So on the flipside, does caring about people scumreading or not liking your play come off as a scumtell to you?

It really depends on personality, and the thing with mena is kind of a special case. I’ve never seen someone contrast a good town game with a mediocre one in that way.

[Infinity 324]

I feel like scum!dave would be doing more to avoid getting scumread, if that makes sense.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry DGB

[Infinity 324]

Man I still feel like lilith is scum
VOTE: lilith

Not so much hoopla anymore

[Infinity 324]

my town game is quite volatile. the game we played together my output was good, and how i try to always play as town. but i have put in a handful of stinkers over the years when life throws me a curveball.

Was thinking about this a bit, and I think there might be some parallels between how I was looking at hoopla's play and how mena was looking at mine. While I still feel like hoopla could be trying to get inside people's heads more than she is, I don't think that's scum motivated. Like, she's not pretending to use nuance, which would be scummy, instead she's just not being more ambitious than necessary, which I can appreciate.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: right. It's not confirmed that there isn't a vig but unlikely.

[Infinity 324]

Pretty sure scum!lilith chooses 1-shot vig and uses it night 1.

[Infinity 324]

Pretty sure scum!lilith chooses 1-shot vig and uses it night 1.

1s vigi is paired with 1s pgo ... which dgb flipped

So barring an odd WIFOM play, the top couple slots in the draft are probably town.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: hoopla

there is confirmed no scum 1-shot vig, so we should absolutely avoid shooting at the top of the draft.

We certainly should avoid shooting the top of the draft

Oh shit...the pt. Wrong thread.

Lol you think a post with a vote in it was meant for the scum pt?

[Infinity 324]

If you're going with the logic that scum would choose 1-shot vigi. That would mean lilith, Dunnstral, skitter, dave, S_S, Uncrowned, Infnity, peta are all Town.

Well at a certain point you assume someone above you in the draft is gonna take the vig. Could be a WIFOM play from scum though.

And yes, penguin, that's what I meant.

[Infinity 324]

If you're going with the logic that scum would choose 1-shot vigi. That would mean lilith, Dunnstral, skitter, dave, S_S, Uncrowned, Infnity, peta are all Town.

Well at a certain point you assume someone above you in the draft is gonna take the vig. Could be a WIFOM play from scum though.

And yes, penguin, that's what I meant.

Like maybe scum!dave or scum!s_s thinks "well the 1-shot vig might be taken already so I could just take the N3 vig instead"

Jackson, try to explain to me your peta scumread again?

[Infinity 324]

jv is probably town too. i don't remember if i said that already

Idk I feel like they may be hiding behind this silly tunnel to avoid scumhunting

VOTE: mena

[Infinity 324]

I hope your gf gets better

[Infinity 324]

want some explanation from infinity as to his vote there

I said yesterday that I thought mena’s SR of me was genuine, but he didn’t maintain it too long into the game which is weird. When I started putting in some effort, he likely found it more difficult to argue I’m scum (bias of having TMI helps). I believe that he was too tired to read my hoopla thing, but I think town!mena maintains the passion for his SR on me.

[Infinity 324]

There's an amount of pride that goes with reads you have before replacing in, you clearly seemed like you had caught me, you were

so sure

and then I make an effort post and you're like ehh sort later without even reading it?

[Infinity 324]

I knew it was something

[Infinity 324]

Do you think it's necessary? We kinda have a guilty.

[Infinity 324]

JV feels a lot like scum, and I would elim there

Why?

[Infinity 324]

Which would imply scum framed infinity by no killing

How would they know you got JKed?

I feel like if you're town a doc save is likely what's going on

[Infinity 324]

{davesaz, dunn, JV, TGP, hoopla} were all more likely to be blocked/tracked than mena imo

Could be a doc I guess?

[Infinity 324]

Mena/JV definitely looked S/S for a while there, the nonsense arguments when mena probably gets limmed today. Interesting move for mena to start TRing jackson though.

[Infinity 324]

May be biased because I just finished a game where basically-confirmed-scum kept trying to pretend to gamesolve, but I don't agree with hoopla here. Some people are just tenacious.

[Infinity 324]

Mena/JV definitely looked S/S for a while there, the nonsense arguments when mena probably gets limmed today. Interesting move for mena to start TRing jackson though.

Ok I'm coming back to this because I really don't like it

Why do you think this?

The argument seemed super pointless, idk why JV in particular continues that as town. Maybe they thought a little spat would help distance.

[Infinity 324]

The soft was pretty obvious, what I'm wondering is how he knew it was a JK/rb. I thought it was cop tbh

[Infinity 324]

Also has anyone actually checked peta's tone where I linked? I feel like it's so obvious but everyone's ignoring it

Looks pretty similar to me, they've had a very confident attitude all game

[Infinity 324]

Skitter what do scum tunnels look like in your opinion and how does that contrast from what JV is doing here?

[Infinity 324]

The soft was pretty obvious, what I'm wondering is how he knew it was a JK/rb. I thought it was cop tbh

Can you first point to the obvious soft

soooooooooooooooo

VOTE: mena

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

Mena is too earnest. Need to rethink

Still think the 1-shot vig thing makes lilith pretty likely to be town

I think a doc save might be what's going on

[Infinity 324]

Like, we're in a game where town and scum both know who the likely PRs are.

[Infinity 324]

skitter talk to me about s_s and penguin? I also had them as town but I was gonna re-evaluate because I can't remember super specific reasons why

[Infinity 324]

Mena/skitter interactions super feel like T/T, there's an attitude of "I'm paranoid of you but hope you're town and want to work with you"

[Infinity 324]

I think JV is much more likely than TGP to be scum pretending to be town stuck in a tunnel. For example, 1912 feels like a town "aha" moment. JV has tunneled peta from super early on giving very little focus to other slots, and when they did, it was often on NAI stuff. I don't think town tunnels based on an early d1 response to a joke, and 593 didn't feel like a "heh I'm gonna catch you with this" post.

VOTE: JV

[Infinity 324]

this is absolutely terrible

Why?

[Infinity 324]

this is absolutely terrible

Why?

[Infinity 324]

this is absolutely terrible

Why?

like i'm not sure how to describe it? reading that post pinged me

I'm confused how, can you try?

[Infinity 324]

2085 feels like a pointless post to make as scum and towny energy

[Infinity 324]

I can't explain it but I really think TGP is town.

[Infinity 324]

If the entire plan was to make a bunch of opportunistic votes and use "I'm LHF" as a defense, why does 2104 sound so nervous? It doesn't add up for me

[Infinity 324]

I'd like to know people's thoughts on dunnstral

[Infinity 324]

Obvtown: skitter, Uncrowned
People that I feel are town and want to trust skitter on: s_s, bird
Other people that I feel are town: mena, TGP, peta
Scummy on play but prob town from mechanics: lilith
Lean town: dave, hoopla
Dunnstral
Scummy: JV

PEdit: mena is so town on play though

[Infinity 324]

You saw my readslist

[Infinity 324]

Correct.

[Infinity 324]

Not really. I like to focus on a few slots at a time because I can get overwhelmed if I try to focus on everyone at once (this is one of the realizations that made me feel better about hoopla fwiw). But 3-4 slots for directed attention is a good sweetspot imo.

[Infinity 324]

I don't really have an opinion on it, it's a pretty easy position to take for scum to say "mena was guiltied and anyone directing attention elsewhere is a scumbuddy" but it's something along the lines of what I would expect from town who strongly believes mena tried to make the kill last night

[Infinity 324]

@Mena: you brought up the optics of scum doing stuff earlier, what do you think about the optics of scum!TGP?

[Infinity 324]

assuming we didn't get a doctor save off N1.

I don’t think this is a good assumption and I’m not sure why people keep thinking it is

[Infinity 324]

dgb was essentially a guaranteed lim, and if i were scum i would just hard defend her instead of being on that lim

This thing, which is essentially saying:

town would be on this DGB lim, scum would hard defend her but that's not what I (TGP) did
which is the pattern "town would do x where scum would do y but I did x" and in a town mindset you don't put it that way.

Pretty sure there is at least one other post where the same type of logic is used.

I've certainly seen town do that before

[Infinity 324]

Not sure about others, I have found that when I'm able to bounce reads off of people and engage in real time my town winrate goes up by a lot. But I will try to be considerate for the people who have to try to keep up.

[Infinity 324]

Lilith being redirected to the NK target is a possibility for what happened too, maybe scum though she was a cop

[Infinity 324]

Scratch that, cop is paired with redirector. So the most likely way for redirecting to be involved in this is for scum to redirect lilith to the player who made the kill. Seems unlikely (why don't they redirect to a different mafia member) but a possibility.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: dunnstral sure.

I do agree that people tend to overestimate their scumhunting abilities. Still think JV is very likely the 1 scum in the 4s but

[Infinity 324]

There doesn't seem to be a coherent plan behind what they're doing, they're not trying to look like they're solving. (see 2108 I guess). 2085 felt like towny energy, and 1912 felt like a town "aha" moment.

[Infinity 324]

The problem is that your case isn't very convincing to me because I don't see flip-flopping and weak reasoning as scumtells in the general case. I try to match emotion and tone to players' behavior to see whether more sense as town vs. scum, and here it feels like it matches up much better if TGP is town.

[Infinity 324]

people who sit on the fence, go under the radar, or make attempts to be unpolarizing are the ones who are likely to be scum

TGP has been the total opposite of this.

Besides that I give up trying to explain my townread.

[Infinity 324]

Never said you were scumreading TGP for that reason but doing the opposite of something scummy is generally towny

Like they're doing things that clearly draws attention to themselves in a way that scum don't like to

[Infinity 324]

Nah, you're good. Unfortunately I recently came back to mafia after a hiatus. But here are a couple scumgames of mine from before that.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

[Infinity 324]

Do you still think mena is scum?

[Infinity 324]

A couple things I wanted to address from the case, though it made me more confident if anything in my TGP townread

this seems like intentionally bad reasoning, and it looks scum-indicative to me. Because dgb was below every unique number that was picked, it seems like a stretch to say that:
1. it would be an odd wifom play to not take the 1-shot vig as scum
2. this only applies to the top couple slots in the draft

while i understand the possible reasoning that the top couple of slots in the draft would be more confident in getting 1-shot vig as scum, it's not a particularly coveted town role and is not incredibly likely to be picked by town. thus, this reasoning seems like it falls apart pretty quickly when attempting to make both of those arguments together.

I mean, someone in the town is likely to pick it right? If you aren't likely to get a super strong PR then going for 1-shot vig makes sense. Also vig power is

super

strong for scum, the idea that they would give up on it cause wine is pretty questionable imo

infinity has pointed out themselves that they try to just focus on slots that specifically ping them (they said 3-4 was good, which it seems like JV has)

JV has basically focused on one player. Yeah they were directing attention on mena earlier in the day. But it's super easy to focus on the guilty and there was no sorting involved. What other players has JV significantly focused on in your opinion throughout the game?

tunnels aren't usually indicative of scumplay

It's not the fact that JV is tunneling that's scummy. It's the

way

they're tunneling. They're barely incorporating any of peta's play since the tunnel started, which is very unusual for town tunnels. Confbias is a big factor, so

everything

the tunneled player is doing generally looks scummy to the tunneling player. The fact that it started with a lighthearted-sounding post, 593, doesn't match up with the strength of the tunnel imo.

[Infinity 324]

Wow I almost never see that

Usually they have a reason for why everything they do is scummy somehow

[Infinity 324]

oh i'm a vt

What role did you go for?

[Infinity 324]

Don't answer that nvm

[Infinity 324]

I guess scum are informed anyway, so probably yeah

[Infinity 324]

What information are we keeping from scum if they dont claim it

The fact that someone above TGP in the draft took a role from the pair that they requested. Scum could infer that this is likely, but they don't know for sure.

[Infinity 324]

i would agree with infinity here but also think it's probably a byproduct of them not really keeping up with the thread at all which is due to outside circumstances, so.

Maybe, I feel like there was a time in d1 when they were active and mostly just tunneling. Or focusing on other NAI stuff.

[Infinity 324]

Are you a jester or

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

Mena is too earnest. Need to rethink

Still think the 1-shot vig thing makes lilith pretty likely to be town

I think a doc save might be what's going on

i feel like this flip on menal without a massive change in menal's tone and posting style at that point (just the amount of it) was fairly scummy.

Lol am I getting trolled

[Infinity 324]

Dunn, what did you think of 2189? Who's scum other than mena?

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

Mena is too earnest. Need to rethink

Still think the 1-shot vig thing makes lilith pretty likely to be town

I think a doc save might be what's going on

i feel like this flip on menal without a massive change in menal's tone and posting style at that point (just the amount of it) was fairly scummy.

Lol am I getting trolled

I do think this makes TGP more likely to be scum. It seems like a really bad strategy, but it looks like they're intentionally trying to play the "too scummy to be scum" card. It's too much of a coincidence.

Unrelated, I'm not getting the same townvibes from peta that I was earlier.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: dunn

[Infinity 324]

The role choices of the people who have flipped are really making me question my setup spec. Specifically whether scum would've chosen 1-shot vig. I think it's 100% correct to do so but maybe other people disagreed.

[Infinity 324]

It means dunn and lilith are more likely to be scum.

[Infinity 324]

...how?

If scum want to go for 1-shot vig, the only reason not to take it is because they thought town would get it first. If lilith/dunn are scum then they can just snag 1-shot vig if they want it. I was thinking there wasn't scum in the top few slots for this reason. However, if my assumption is wrong and scum didn't go for 1-shot vig, lilith/dunn can be scum.

[Infinity 324]

{skitter}
{s_s, mena, bird, dave}
{hoopla, peta}
{jv, dunn, lilith}

[Infinity 324]

{skitter}
{s_s, mena, bird, dave}
{hoopla, peta}
{jv, dunn, lilith}

Can you give me the reasons behind these placements pls

Later today/tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

I don't

really

have the energy to devote to this game right now but I'm gonna quickly give reasons for my reads earlier

JV/n_m- as I said before, really think their tunnel is scum indicative and when they've been here, they've mostly just been pushing peta and stuff that's been NAI. Their push on mena at the start of d2 felt unnecessary and fabricated
dunn- Pretty much just PoE. I could see his posts coming from town, but he was focusing on odd things (hoopla for questioning him about his early-d1 skitter vote) and insisting that mena be limmed after kinda obvtowning
lilith- One of the scummiest by play, and I really want to trust skitter's read here. I should probably give weight to the fact that taking JK is a big sacrifice as scum and that it's unlikely scum would claim JK at the start of d2 (to try to get mena limmed?) so I'm not sure on this
skitter- She's been pretty obvtown honestly, she's been really transparent and the interaction with mena during d2 felt really T/T to me. I think she could be alive cause of a doc but we'll have to find out.
mena- Only thing that's making me question this TR is that he was jailed n1, but I think doc is more likely. The questioning of the skitter townread was very towny and it's difficult to come up with such a genuine-looking burst of solving as scum in response to a guilty.
s_s- He's been questioning along lines that make sense as town his timing has been good. Not super sure on this one, haven't played with scum!s_s but my gut says town.
peta- I liked his tone for most of d1 but the doubt on the tgp wagon at the end pinged me for some reason. I also feel iffy about him switching to a jackson TR.
hoopla- Don't really know how to read her but her actions have lined up with her mechanical analysis which is good. Gut says town.
bird- Was sheeping skitter on this read but now she's not as sure. I liked his tone d1 but need to look into this again.
dave- I liked his tone and lack of concern with pressure, but it's not a super solid read.

[Infinity 324]

skitter- She's been pretty obvtown honestly, she's been really transparent and the interaction with mena during d2 felt really T/T to me. I think she could be alive cause of a doc but we'll have to find out.

Such as this, for instance

This reasoning is pretty lazy tbf

[Infinity 324]

Mena, do you know if skitter would be more open minded to lilith!town as town here? I can relate to the idea of knowing how to read someone and trusting your read in them 100%, but if there are other people in the game that also know how to read lilith, it doesn't make a

ton

of sense to hold on to the read this long right? Idk, we're getting into the problem of people knowing each other's meta better than me, and generally being better scumhunters, but I wanna know if I wrote skitter off as town too early. Especially if this is true:

normally you call out when people are TRing you for bad reasons but I don’t think I’ve seen you do that here

I think my reasons for TRing skitter were somewhat lazy tbh.

[Infinity 324]

Peta why does scum!lilith claim when she does? Also what happens if dunn is town and how likely do you think that is?

[Infinity 324]

Forcing scum to claim PR early is good.