Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Game Over!

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Hello friends

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I believe it’s standard practice in this setup to make sure your role is public knowledge? So

hardclaim cop

to begin with

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Also there’s one player here who’s like, intensely scummy and hasn’t been pressured at all lmao

I would prefer them to DGB but I can compromise with doing DGBif we can’t get the votes there in time

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Oh, and anyone who knows pine should know this is an obvtown slot

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And it took you two whole minutes to come to this conclusion?

I’ve been following the game lol

How do you think I repped in so quickly? I PM’d ducky 2 minutes after it had been 24hrs from when he said he was prodding pine

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Also I’m technically on hiatus so if we could wrap this up smoothly and easily that would be appreciated

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Also how are you DGB, it’s been a while

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I’ll admit I mostly dipped in and out and got my main readslist (which I’ll post after seeing if anyone can guess who the super scummy slot who’s not been under any pressure yet is) from doing ISOs ~pg 20 I think? And then have followed more closely since I suspected pine would be replaced and have a few notes since the wagon moved off lil onto you regarding my readslist

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Who do you think is the obvscum player here, DGB?

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Good to hear! And I’m still not totally sure, I somehow conned the scummies committee into thinking I know what I’m doing

But in seriousness I have a reasonable sort of scumgame and am generally fairly difficult to guillotine when town and try hard (although I’ve managed to relax more this year) and I guess that added up to the award

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Who do you think is the obvscum player here, DGB?

Lilith, obviously. I am even vanity wagoning, which is out of character for me.

*incorrect gameshow buzzer noise*

Lilith *can* be scum and that’s quite likely, but I don’t think she’d lie about Covid for an ingame advantage so her absence and general lack of WIM could be explained by her RL situation

Also, specifically said that the obvscum slot is someone who

hasn’t

been pressured yet today

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S_S why are you still not voting?

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Hello Penguin, I see you there, guess what I’ve got for you?

Spoiler:

a nice ole pot of DENIED

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I don’t disagree that making excuses for not posting is scummy, but it also depends a lot on what I think of the person and what said excuse is.

“I’ve been really busy will get to this soon” — generic excuse, has time to come to thread but not giving reads, ++scum

“I think I have a serious illness that can be life threatening in the middle of a global pandemic” — I don’t think lilith is the type of person who tells a lie of this magnitude to a bunch of people who care about her and will be worried about her RL well-being just to win a mafiagame +NAI

I’m not denying some people would lie about that sort of thing. I’ve definitely heard of cases where people have treated the game as “anything is morally justified within the bounds of mafia” and there’s certainly a couple of players I won’t name who I would not give even the slightest pass based on claims about IRL, either bc they’ve shown that they’ll lie for advantage about serious things, or because they themselves insist on being inhumane towards other players using the “it’s a game” justification. I don’t think lilith is that way at all based on the various interactions and games I’ve played with her in over the last few months

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So: she gets a pass for today, and if she doesn’t pick it up soon/once recovered then I’ll flip her

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dear jesus, is it me

*shakes head gently*

No

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what i know about pine is i got him eliminated once long ago when i was scum and he was obvtown. also had a kinda trash scumgame but that was also forever ago so i assume no longer true

Pine now has a notoriously good scumgame and is actively more enthusiastic when rolling scum (although he can strategically lurk). It’s ++town for me that he let himself be replaced instead of hitting the minimum activity requirements, which is something he could definitely have done if he was scum and lurking intentionally instead of bc he just wasn’t engaged as town

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dear jesus, is it me

*shakes head gently*

No

okay is it dunnstral

It’s not him either

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it's so funny that you're talking about your own slot, one that you got the role pm for, as "++town for you"
"

It’s not any less true tho

Menalque replaces Pine

o/

Hey S_S!

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Who would you vote for?

Also, wanna take a stab at my super secret scumread?

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Nope!

How come?

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@Menalque
I have been at times busy (this game for example, I had a publishing deadline to respect) but once my timetable cleared up, I fulfilled my obligations.

You seem to have correctly intuited that this is, indeed, part of the reason why I think you’re likely to be scum!

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I'm ambivalent between DGB and Hoopla.

Why hoopla?

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I don't see why I should be able to predict the reads of someone who just entered the game with better than random accuracy (assuming as you have already stated that they are not just consensus).

But that’s not really what I’m asking, what I’m really asking is “who do you think could be a slot I think is so scummy as to term it “obvscum” but that hasn’t seen pressure yet?”

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Why hoopla?

Because she's got a wagon?

Let’s try this again: do you think DGB/hoopla are scummy?

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infinity 324?

*ding ding ding ding ding*

Goes the gameshow scumfinding bell!

VOTE: infinity

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S_S, be real with me homie: u scum?

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Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, wherefore art thou Beetlejuice?

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Can you give us the sparknotes on Infinity?

I /can/ but first I'm gonna give my readslist and notes

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"I say notes

Here’s a readslist

skitt (obligatory TR)
S_S — strong town
PP, dave, hoopla — town
petapan, uncrowned — town lean/town with reservations
Pine — true neutral
DGB, dunn, TGP — nullscum
JV — scumlean
lil — scum
Infinity — obvscum

Update:

Dave looking a little worse for sheeping onto DGB, unless DGB is, in fact, scum

DGB looking fucking awful for the lilith push but skitt’s right that it could totally be bussing.

If both of DGB and lil are town then skitter is probably scum with infinity

S_S could be scum with lilith maybe

Uncrowned is notably townier than I had him before

Hoopla still town and idk if I get the wagon there

JV maybe is town actually? Idk. I probably shouldn’t be reading alignment too hard from this, but his apology to uncrowned specifically for not playing harder seems less likely to come from scum while not under pressure

Mostly I just want a flip, DGB or infinity would both be fine

JV is actually surprisingly high posting for saying he’s disengaged, idk if that says anything AI but it pings me as interesting to say the least"

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I think where we're at now is something like

skitt -- oblig
S_S, uncrowned -- strong town
PP, hoopla, peta -- town
dave
TGP, JV -- null
lil, DGB -- scumlean
dunn -- scum
infinity -- obvscum

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it isn't influenced by the draft, although when looked at in conjunction with the draft, they do go together like crackers and cheese

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What a weird thing to say.

that's because he's scum

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I think this should be enough to loosely illustrate, but basically I think infinity is a bit all over the place, doesn't really care about what he's asking and is just sort of generally making a lazy effort to look like he's doing stuff instead of really trying to sort people

it's early and those are subject to change ^

Speaking of not-townpings, why feel the need to mention this?

I really think *call out* posts like this are more often from scum, but also it doesn't really get followed up, and I don't see how he uses this to improve or form his reads. this will be a theme

I'm with skitter on this, I think multitasking is pretty much optimal no matter what.

PEdit: hi!

just again, kind of chipping in with no original content to appear like he's doing something

Someone explain to me this uncrowned wagon he's my only townread

again, this is just kinda lazy? it's like "I should ask questions bc that's what town do" why not ask specifically the people voting uncrowned what's scummy about him? surely that would be a much better way to gather information?

Maybe they wanted a better fakeclaim, and thought that claiming the "town counterpart" to their role wouldn't work for whatever reason? Idk

Hoopla, thoughts on uncrowned?

...something he's clearly able to do bc he then asks someone not on wagon what they think of it

Skitter are you still feeling that penguin is scummy?

PEdit: ok

and for penguin:

Perfectly balanced, as all things should be

this is just posting for the sake of posting and has no effort to solve whatsoever

s_s do you have reads?

this is a super lazy way to shade S_S, as it's framed as "do you have" instead of "what are"

I feel like a lot of townies jump to the conclusion that effort = town too easily

milquetoast take that's (1) wrong and (2) incredibly not interesting or helpful

****

also, who does infinity really think is scum? he's basically not pushing anyone very hard at any point? his two most significant votes have been a weak sheep onto lilith, and then a weak sheep onto hoopla after her wagon died down

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I mean I could do this with more of his ISO too but frankly it would be a lot easier if we could just flip him and prove me right already

however, he does have decent equity with DGB if she's scum so we can do that first and if she flips scum then do infinity all the time tomorrow

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as a fairly major corollary: I think there is quite likely a scum in (lil, DGB) and I know I've already mentioned this but want to reiterate -- if there isn't AND if infinity flips scum, I think skitter's scum equity goes through the roof

if I'm wrong on infinity and there's and/or there is scum in (lil, DGB) skitt is mostly fine, but like, I think she should always be re-examined upon red!infinity

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lol he hammered

flip infinity tomorrow

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^that's literally just a scumclaim folks

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I mean, say your piece homie, I'll hear you out

I just don't have a lot to ask you and don't think you've been trying to solve

if you wanna try to convince me I'm misreading your ISO then uhh go for it, I'll read what you have to say

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also, just look at this: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

look how delicious, how tasty the takes are! how he has scumreads/leans and tries to explain them and to build support for them! where he's actively engaged and has a desire to figure out who the uninformed faction are!

compare and contrast to this game where he's like, making little comments, excusing a lack of reads or only really offering them when prompted, not doing much of anything to build support for flipping them, and is generally just not trying v hard

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I mean... the same thing of looking for them and trying to solve slots and then pushing to guillotine those slots? like I don't think this game is necessarily harder on the face value of early-game to mid-game solving, the only reason haunted village was easy to WIN was because the setup is insanely town sided (like cmon JOAT with a vig shot is 2 ascension points, that's a joke)

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@S_S I think skitt has mostly got increased equity there because she's generally steered things back towards being in lil/DGB and has defused pressure on infinity whenever it's come up which are things I could see her doing with a partner

although now I write it out it does seem less likely, and that she would prob just bus

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I guess it's like a BoP-esque thing really, but you're right that maybe she wouldn't so openly link herself to infinity if they were scum together

that said, no-one else has really called this out so maybe she didn't think there was a lot of obvious linkage?

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it's mostly the incongruence of skitter defending a slot I think is VERY scummy whenever anyone has raised that when I would expect her to be calling the things out that I'm seeing and not defusing pressure there

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How would you feel about slapping a vote down there TGP?

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Hi lil!!!! It is super nice to see you but I do have some concerns that you may be planning to murder me during the night

(Re:IRL I really hope you feel better soon :/) )

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@inifnity the fact that you’re describing catching isis as a process of finding “obvscum” suggests to me that you’re a pretty good scumhunter as I think isis is generally strong as scum, and you claiming difficulty here after saying she was “easy” if anything makes me think you’re scummier

Egotisi in that game was p scummy tho, so I’ll give u that

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Oh, nice

Hey, DGB, have you considered that you’re at G-2 and have two people (PP and myself) who are very willing to vote you

You should support my infinity wagon if you want to live

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I guess it's like a BoP-esque thing really, but you're right that maybe she wouldn't so openly link herself to infinity if they were scum together

I mean, even ignoring Infinity completely, the BoP argument is that if she pushes that hard on lilith-- who, by the way, is also guaranteed to be a good PR-- and then lilith flips town, she suddenly looks really bad.

C’mon we both know that’s not true, there’s a always a lot of townpoints to be had for “pushing with conviction” regardless of what someone flips, and there’s enough WIFOM room for scum!skitt to play around that successfully “oh come on, I would never push a likely strong town PR as scum that’s too obvious and I’m too good as scum to do that!”

Like I definitely think the more competent someone is as scum the more willing they are to make the WIFOM plays (I certainly have become more willing to do obvscummy things knowing that someone will say “why would scum!mena do that when he knows he’ll looo bad, it’s probably town!mena here tbh” as I got more comfortable as scum)

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Lil, what do you think of infinity? What did you make of skitter’s points on his being town?

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Untrue, others did start to push at things about infinity and skitter was the person who prevented those things developing

Again, I’m not scumreading skitter, but I think that her redirecting away from infinity is undeniable

And yes, I would expect skitter to notice the obvscumminess more than others because I think they’re obvscummy and bc I think skitter is a very strong player who would normally notice those things?

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Like, that’s not meant as a slight on anyone here but

(1) skitter has been very engaged this game

(2) it’s not just her ‘missing’ things — it’s her looking at infinity and concluding that he’s town instead of scum

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I don’t think skitter is scum! She could just be wrong on infinity! Or I could be! But I think that it’s worth pointing out that there are meaningful links there in the event that one or the other flips scum

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I’ll cop check infinity tonight

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If we don’t flip him

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Okay chicos, i have to run it’s evening here and I have plans, I will look forward to catching up on infinity’s hoopla case when I get back

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I believe it’s standard practice in this setup to make sure your role is public knowledge? So

hardclaim cop

to begin with

Firstly, hi mena!!

Secondly: uhhhhh in the last iteration of this game i was in, you were scum and lolclaimed cop in your first post (a role which you decidedly did not have) ....

@ dunn

Hi skitt! Yes, that is a thing I did

Something something lightning, something something strikes twice

what i know about pine is i got him eliminated once long ago when i was scum and he was obvtown. also had a kinda trash scumgame but that was also forever ago so i assume no longer true

Pine now has a notoriously good scumgame and is actively more enthusiastic when rolling scum (although he can strategically lurk). It’s ++town for me that he let himself be replaced instead of hitting the minimum activity requirements, which is something he could definitely have done if he was scum and lurking intentionally instead of bc he just wasn’t engaged as town

Also uh i'm not sure i'm townreading you

I’m sure we can rectify that as the days go on

infinity 324?

*ding ding ding ding ding*

Goes the gameshow scumfinding bell!

VOTE: infinity

I'm not vibing this

I knew you’d say this

@S_S I think skitt has mostly got increased equity there because she's generally steered things back towards being in lil/DGB and has defused pressure on infinity whenever it's come up which are things I could see her doing with a partner

although now I write it out it does seem less likely, and that she would prob just bus

Uh i'm not sure this is an accurate assessment of mu treatment towards infinity, esp sincd i think he was only pressured like once iirc

And i think it's kinda weird that you're framing this as 'defusing pressure on infinity' vs 'stating i dont scumread him'

Like, I didn’t read the game in sequence (I mostly looked through ISOs) and my impression was that when infinity came up early on, you threw him a TR and the spotlight just kinda passed over him whereas I think he was looking scummy by that point

I think he came up as a topic at least twice, but I could be misremembering/conflating different points depending on which ISO I was in, I’ll try to have a look tomorrow (although that’s a big maybe bc I’m p busy most of the day)

I guess it's like a BoP-esque thing really, but you're right that maybe she wouldn't so openly link herself to infinity if they were scum together

that said, no-one else has really called this out so maybe she didn't think there was a lot of obvious linkage?

Uh again there isnt really any linkage ...
You can say literally the exact same thing with me/jv, as i actually *did* try to stop a wagon there ...
I'm not sure why you're not calling that out ^

I don’t scumread JV as much as infinity and also uhhh I didn’t notice tbh

S_S just got major scum equity btw. No way in hell that 9 people skipped a role like cop to allow it to drop to 10th, and a mechanics player should be on that.
BTW for the love of god don't counter claim. We don't need to know, and we sure as shit don't need scum to know.
I can't decide if Menalque gets scum points for fishing or if it's a reaction test, but I'm busting it right now.

It's a bs claim and possibly scum indicative

You know better than to think it’s scum indicative surely. I thought you knew my approach to my lolclaims well enough to know I decide on them pre-game and stick with them regardless of role or alignment, it’s just a happy coincidence that I *did* actually roll cop this time

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Perfect perfect, keep calling it a BS claim to distract the scum away from me, I see what y’all are doing

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Maybe, but I prefer to dare scum to not kill me or roleblock me because they think I’m bluffing, only for me yo guilty one of them and for them to realise how hard they fucked up

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I play these days mostly in honour of a concept known only as “the bants” and guilting scum after having hardclaimed cop D1 is most certainly *top* bants

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Or I’m VT baiting them lol

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Or I’m another PR fake claiming cop to make scum think I’m fronting as a VT to bait them so actually they steer clear of me while I use my real night action

It’s one of the three

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Who do you think would be a high priority NK then skitt?

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That’s lowkey a slightly weird comment, not because of an insult but like... how can you be making that kind of assumption, surely at this point we have no idea who would be a high priority NK for the scumteam beyond, well, you

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i dont know who i scumread

infinity

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I dont really care about your infinity scumread, and i think you're attributing more of a linkage there than actually exists

Okay, I’m aware that you don’t, and you’re aware that I’m aware of that

Do you wanna talk about anyone else? Like what are your reads more generally?

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The linkage thing only really becomes an issue we have to hash out if (1) I get my infinity flip (2) he flips scum (3) we both survive the NK into like, D3 or so

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infinity

You have no idea the power of simply saying someone’s name in italics and nothing else.

I learned from the best

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it's mostly the incongruence of skitter defending a slot I think is VERY scummy whenever anyone has raised that when I would expect her to be calling the things out that I'm seeing and not defusing pressure there

Do you think this is just a feature of her playstyle or something she actively does as scum? This is the same kind of thing I brought up about her when JV was under suspicion.

Also hi!

Ehhhh I think if skitt!town which is how I’m playing it atm, she sometimes sees things in people that I don’t and gets to TRs where I can’t

Equally, I have sometimes trusted her a little bit too much > trusting my own reads, so I’m trying to find a balance

I’m not sure that she white knights VTs or defends buddies as a tule and think it’s very much situational. I think both scum and town skitt will defuse wagons on buddies or on townies depending on if she thinks it will benefit her in the long run, but I don’t have enough handle on the gamestate yet to say if I could see that happening here, and I also don’t really scumresd her

Hi back! It’s been a while! I think you’re very town, how do you feel about that?

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Just to summarize where i'm at:

Town: uncrowned,
Town-ish: ss, peta, penguin, infinity
Idk: jv, pine, hoopla, dunn, tgp
Scum-ish: dgb, dave
Scum: lilith

Pretty similar to this but i'm gonna bump lilith up to the 'idk' tier
And maybe hoopla down to scum-ish

@mena

Why down on hoopla? Hoopla seems to be getting like, a reasonable amount of pressure but I’m not seeing the scum there myself, I thought that tonally + effort they made was +town

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Mena do u actually townread me now or is it a day1 townread, out of curiosity

Little of column A, little of column B?

As always I have no real interest in pushing you or guillotining you D1 and think it will be more productive to TR you.

I also broadly agree with you (if you check out my updated readslist it’s not a million miles from yours) but there are things giving me pause that I’m not sure I get, one being infinity’s placement in your reads

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Why are dunn and Dave scum-ish?

Why isn’t S_S higher?

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Still hasn’t happened and I long for the day

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Okay, it’s 2:35 and I have a full day of uh

Activities

Planned for tomorrow so I’m gonna try to sleep!

Catch you all soon

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Last thought is that Dave could be scum but I think I always scumresd him so I’m a little mistrustful of my judgement there

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VOTE: dunnstral

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Mena you are not going to ignore me after you made me start tryharding

I’m not ignoring you ignoring you, I just was tired last night and didn’t feel like trying to parse your post

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it's mostly the incongruence of skitter defending a slot I think is VERY scummy whenever anyone has raised that when I would expect her to be calling the things out that I'm seeing and not defusing pressure there

Do you think this is just a feature of her playstyle or something she actively does as scum? This is the same kind of thing I brought up about her when JV was under suspicion.

Also hi!

Ehhhh I think if skitt!town which is how I’m playing it atm, she sometimes sees things in people that I don’t and gets to TRs where I can’t

Equally, I have sometimes trusted her a little bit too much > trusting my own reads, so I’m trying to find a balance

I’m not sure that she white knights VTs or defends buddies as a tule and think it’s very much situational. I think both scum and town skitt will defuse wagons on buddies or on townies depending on if she thinks it will benefit her in the long run, but I don’t have enough handle on the gamestate yet to say if I could see that happening here, and I also don’t really scumresd her

Hi back! It’s been a while! I think you’re very town, how do you feel about that?

That makes sense, I think I've said this but

(1) her and S_S *seem* to be playing from very reasonable perspectives

that I think come from town more often than not. From my brief knowledge of Skit I doubt I'd be able to read her accurately anyway until more info had come out?

I've only skimmed your posting and want to give it a more thorough read when I'm done with this assignment lol

(2) As for your read, I don't know. I feel like it's an easy read to make given the state of everyone's reads and the fact that I think for anyone who has brief game experience with me, they'll know I've pretty much townspewed this game lmao

Also ngl I feel like some of the stuff you've accused Infinity of could be said for me as well. I've asked a bunch of questions that sometimes don't seem like they're going anywhere, but like what Infinity said, it's how I also gather info and come to conclusions. I find it a bit interesting at least that you haven't called me out for the same thing, unless you think my play has just been that townie?

(1) tbf i don’t think ‘being reasonable’ is at all AI, and it’s not why I’m TRing skitt or S_S

(2) actually, i thought your play was super duper scummy when I first looked at it! But then I went back to our only completed game together, and hey presto, I *also* thought your play there was super duper scummy at the beginning and only came round to my TR on you later. So revising your posting knowing that I have a tendency to scumread you for your general style is how I got to the TR, and the fact that you’re mildly calling me out for not calling you out for certain things I *should* maybe see as scummy but don’t due to past experience makes me even more confident you’re town

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Ehh actually

VOTE: DGB

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I can’t tell if DGB is town or bluffing the “total lack of survivalism” thing to try and look town

But I don’t townread her and if she doesn’t want to play then she’s always gonna be a liability and hard to sort and isn’t going to contribute very much/any more than she already has

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Like, I’m sorry you haven’t enjoyed the game DGB, but I want you dead at this point

[Menalque]

hmm

okay, I don't think scum is exactly (skitt, lilith, infinity) but I do think there's at least one scum in there and I think quite conceivably two

I really don't like skitter's entry into today (where she's pushing for me but not really going into any detail and calling lil (one of her top SRs yesterday) out as doing good posting for her completely unsubstantiated vote on me, esp when she was happy to call DGB's vote on lili as a likely distancing vote yesterday

infinity seems to be rapidly changing his tone on me and is probably still scum (went from trying to appease me yesterday to immediately jumping onto me today with a kind of half arsed justification)

so I guess I'm leaning like (skitt, infinity, ...) rn only I'm not sure

the hoopla/JV hop ons also... weren't good

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incidentally, hope everything gets better JV, best wishes to your GF

[Menalque]

Fwiw I also think that there are 2 scum on wagon and so far im leaning THP/Mena

Daves also seemed a bit too content to sit on wagon end of D1 but im less confident on that

why

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mostly why do you think it's TGP/me

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and why do you think there's 2 on

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I think, if anything, the self-vote makes it slightly less likely there are two on but really at this point I wouldn't care to call it either way. I would, as a rule, lean towards it being 1 or 2 on at this point without more info tho

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Spoiler:

vote count 1.01

Uncrowned (3)

: JacksonVirgo, DrippingGoofball, petapan

lilith2013 (3)

: Hoopla, Uncrowned, davesaz

Pine (1)

: PenguinPower

PenguinPower (1)

: skitter30

Hoopla (1)

: Infinity 324

JacksonVirgo (1)

: lilith2013

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Dunnstral, Pine, TheGoldenParadox

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays
- quack

vote count 1.02

Uncrowned (4)

: JacksonVirgo, DrippingGoofball, petapan, PenguinPower

lilith2013 (3)

: Hoopla, Uncrowned, davesaz

PenguinPower (1)

: skitter30

JacksonVirgo (1)

: lilith2013

skitter30 (1)

: Infinity 324

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Dunnstral, Pine, TheGoldenParadox

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays
- quack

vote count 1.05

lilith2013 (4)

: davesaz, PenguinPower, skitter30, Uncrowned

Uncrowned (2)

: JacksonVirgo, DrippingGoofball

PenguinPower (1)

: Hoopla

JacksonVirgo (1)

: lilith2013

Infinity 324 (1)

: petapan

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Dunnstral, Pine, TheGoldenParadox, Infinity 324

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays
- quack

vote count 1.06

lilith2013 (5)

: davesaz, PenguinPower, skitter30, Uncrowned, Hoopla

Uncrowned (2)

: JacksonVirgo, DrippingGoofball

JacksonVirgo (1)

: lilith2013

Infinity 324 (1)

: petapan

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Dunnstral, Pine, TheGoldenParadox, Infinity 324

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays
- quack

vote count 1.12

JacksonVirgo (4)

: lilith2013, petapan, Hoopla, davesaz

lilith2013 (3)

: PenguinPower, skitter30, Uncrowned

Uncrowned (1)

: DrippingGoofball

skitter30 (1)

: Dunnstral

PenguinPower (1)

: TheGoldenParadox

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Pine, Infinity 324, JacksonVirgo

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays
- prodding Pine
- quack

vote count 1.18

lilith2013 (4)

: PenguinPower, skitter30, Uncrowned, petapan

JacksonVirgo (2)

: lilith2013, Hoopla

TheGoldenParadox (2)

: Infinity 324, davesaz

Uncrowned (1)

: DrippingGoofball

skitter30 (1)

: Dunnstral

PenguinPower (1)

: TheGoldenParadox

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Pine, JacksonVirgo

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays
- quack

vote count 1.21

lilith2013 (5)

: PenguinPower, skitter30, Uncrowned, petapan, DrippingGoofball

petapan (2)

: Hoopla, JacksonVirgo

skitter30 (1)

: Dunnstral

JacksonVirgo (1)

: lilith2013

Hoopla (1)

: TheGoldenParadox

TheGoldenParadox (1)

: davesaz

davesaz (1)

: Infinity 324

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Pine

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays
- quack

vote count 1.22

lilith2013 (6)

: PenguinPower, Uncrowned, petapan, DrippingGoofball, Infinity 324, davesaz

petapan (2)

: Hoopla, JacksonVirgo

skitter30 (1)

: Dunnstral

JacksonVirgo (1)

: lilith2013

Hoopla (1)

: TheGoldenParadox

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Pine, skitter30

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

With 14 alive it takes 8 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- "with X alive" text included just because I love you all.
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays.
- quack

vote count 1.25

DrippingGoofball (3)

: lilith2013, skitter30, petapan

Hoopla (3)

: TheGoldenParadox, Infinity 324, Dunnstral

lilith2013 (2)

: DrippingGoofball, davesaz

Pine (2)

: PenguinPower, Uncrowned

petapan (1)

: JacksonVirgo

davesaz (1)

: Hoopla

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Pine

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-02 21:15:00)

With 14 alive it takes 8 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- prodding pine
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays.
- quack

vote count 1.30

DrippingGoofball (5)

: lilith2013, petapan, davesaz, Infinity 324, skitter30

Infinity 324 (3)

: Menalque, TheGoldenParadox, PenguinPower

davesaz (2)

: Hoopla, Uncrowned

Hoopla (1)

: Dunnstral

petapan (1)

: JacksonVirgo

lilith2013 (1)

: DrippingGoofball

Not voting

: Something_Smart,

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-03 02:30:00)

With 14 alive it takes 8 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays.
- quack

vote count 1.32

DrippingGoofball (8)

: lilith2013, davesaz, Infinity 324, Menalque, PenguinPower, petapan, TheGoldenParadox, DrippingGoofball

petapan (1)

: JacksonVirgo

Dunnstral (1)

: Uncrowned

davesaz (1)

: Hoopla

Hoopla (1)

: Dunnstral

Not voting

: Something_Smart, skitter30

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-03 02:30:00)

With 14 alive it takes 8 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- EOD activity check: all shiny.
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays.
- quack

vote count 2.02

Menalque (3)

: skitter30, lilith2013, Infinity 324

TheGoldenParadox (2)

: Uncrowned, PenguinPower

Hoopla (1)

: TheGoldenParadox

petapan (1)

: JacksonVirgo

skitter30 (1)

: petapan

Dunnstral (1)

: Hoopla

Not voting

: davesaz, Something_Smart, Dunnstral, Menalque

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-13 13:00:00)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la fridays & saturdays
- quack

putting this here for ease of access and to have a quick glance, I may do coloured stuff later

[Menalque]

You're vote was icky, as was you loldropping infinity to vote dgb

why

[Menalque]

DGB was comfortably going through anyway in that scenario, or alternatively infinity was going through, in either case there was no need for scum!me to hop onto the DGB wagon to ensure it went through or anything

[Menalque]

so you still think lilith is scummy or not?

[Menalque]

You're vote was icky, as was you loldropping infinity to vote dgb

why

Because it looked like you dropped something you actually believed in to vote someone who was posting badly (but not necessarily scummily) at a time when the wagon on dgb was not set yet, and your vote was the tipping point so to speak for that wagon, and made it much more likely to go through

I really dont like the drop off of infinity

but this makes very little sense for scum!me to do unless you think I was lolbussing infinity from the moment I entered and dropped off to save him

like why was it a priority for scum!me to see DGB go through > infinity

and if your answer is "because she's a strong town player" y-es, but she didn't really have any play in this lobby (so not much to fear for scum!me) and you know very well that I normally setup to endgame as scum rather than play sacrificial -- if I was desperate to get her gone, why wouldn't I get a team-mate to make the bad vote switch to see her through?

[Menalque]

DGB was comfortably going through anyway in that scenario, or alternatively infinity was going through, in either case there was no need for scum!me to hop onto the DGB wagon to ensure it went through or anything

She wasnt yet, i'm p sure your vote is what made it inevitable

what does it matter if it was between infinity or DGB anyway?

[Menalque]

I think your focus on my DGB vote is v weird

[Menalque]

so you still think lilith is scummy or not?

Idk yet, she hasnt been posting
What with people in the us probably being distracted last night i'll givr her like a day, and if posting doesnt improve to town!lilith willl go back there

okay, but you thought she was scummy yesterday no?

[Menalque]

I think, if anything, the self-vote makes it slightly less likely there are two on but really at this point I wouldn't care to call it either way. I would, as a rule, lean towards it being 1 or 2 on at this point without more info tho

Ummmmm why does self-vote imply there's not two on?

bc the self-vote means the wagon goes through easier and it makes it less clear how much scum had to support it to get it through

[Menalque]

also, rightly or wrongly, a lot of people still see self-votes as scummy/throwy and will vote people for them, thereby making it less clear if it's a "GTFO of here" vote from town, or an opportunistic scum vote

[Menalque]

Both you and TGP were both "set" on Infinity and then dropped that idea for a wagon that neither of you seemed invested in at all. in fact, TGP even went as far as to say that they're "not on board with eliminating her (DGB) under any circumstances" on D1 and that they "doesn't buy the wagon" but yet decided to drop that whole mentality because she... made a claim? A claim that wasn't countered? A claim that would've been real dumb to fake considering the setup?

It just makes no sense to me.

You also behaved similarly

I mean, first up, I was pushing infinity but I said multiple times (I think almost from when I repped in?) that I was fine with a DGB elim D1. I made that very, very clear throughout

I wasn't around for the claim (I had a busy weekend, up to you to decide if you believe this or not) but tbh I think I would quite likely have pushed her for it anyway, I don't think PGO is a bad claim to fake as scum bc it disincentivises a checking/invest to follow you. might not endgame with it, but it would buy you a while

I'm struggling to see why you think TGP and I were behaving similarly if he'd said he was strongly against eliminating her and pivoted there whereas I consistently said id' be willing to compromise there even if I preferred infinity

[Menalque]

Also Mena you not engaging with Infinity after he replied to your push on him and then changing wagons looks pretty bad to me

I mean I can explain that p easily

I saw his big post but was tired and didn't feel like trying to decide if it was genuine scum hunting or not

DGB was making a big deal about how shit the game was and how she didn't wanna play.

I decided it would be easier to sort the scummy infinity slot who was at least trying to meet his wincon than to work out if disengaged DGB was scum or town

You also said you'd compromise on DGB "if we ran out of time" but as far as I'm concerned we could've gotten more out of the day. It's not like you were forced to change that vote due to time pressure.

I kinda already explained in the point above, but the whole reason I was willing to compromise was because I found her consistently scummy

like I'm failing to see what the argument here is? scum!me would feel like jumping off my top SR to a slightly lower SR is going to look good for me?

[Menalque]

I think your focus on my DGB vote is v weird

Well i think your vote was weird (and bad, and scummy), so

I basically think town!you would have tried to make infinity more viable, while scum!you saw an easy lolvote on someone imploding and took it

you've played with scum!me, and I'm really struggling to see you actually believing this and it's making me think you're scum

you know very well that if there's one characteristic of my game *in general* it's a good awareness of how I'm perceived in thread, and that I resist going for the easy LHF consistently because I know it will look bad later

if you were making the argument that I jumped off to WIFOM ("ahh, I'd never do this as scum my game is too good I wouldn't be so obvious!") then I'd at least think that this was a genuine approach

I really don't think that town!you thinks that I care enough about eliminating DGB > infinity to decide to look worse in thread to achieve that, unless, again, you think I was lolbussing infinity from the moment I entered the game

[Menalque]

VOTE: skitter

[Menalque]

peak lilith wagon voters:

PenguinPower

,

Uncrowned

,

petapan

,

DrippingGoofball

,

Infinity 324

,

davesaz

early DGB switch voters:

lilith2013

,

petapan

,

davesaz

,

Infinity 324

,

skitter30

final DGB wagon voters:

lilith2013

,

davesaz

,

Infinity 324

,

Menalque

,

PenguinPower

,

petapan

,

TheGoldenParadox

,

DrippingGoofball

mena D2 voters:

skitter30

,

lilith2013

,

Infinity 324

,

JV

,

hoopla

key:

1 wagon

2 wagons

3 wagons

4 wagons

conftown

[Menalque]

Wait did a PR clakm

I didn’t even know they were essentially red checked, yeah I’m parking my vote here

they did not!

[Menalque]

incidentally, I think I'm now at

L-1

[Menalque]

yeah, I'm at L-1 with Dunn's vote

[Menalque]

if I get speed hammered my guess is like

(infinity, skitter, one of dunn/JV/hoopla)

[Menalque]

I think there's a reasonable chance scum started the wagon and then leant into it, and they figured they'd take the shot at eliminating me fast even if it would make one of them look bad (especially when whoever is town in dunn/JV/hoopla) looks really awful on my townflip

[Menalque]

Does less wagons mean less likely to be scum? Just going off your coloring. That feels inaccurate to me.

And I don't know Mena, I just know from that game we played together that you have the capability of being a super strong town voice, and I feel like if you actually believed in that Infinity read, you would've drove it home rather than compromising for DGB who you had spoke less about outside of vague "yeah, I'd vote her" things.

I'd advise you to maybe go check a couple of my games since then

I'm still a "strong town voice" but I try to force things less than I used to, and in fact the last time I very nearly forced a guillotine through single handed I think I was scum?

[Menalque]

uncrowned, if I do get speed-elimed here then deathtunnel infinity tomorrow for me and if he flips scum and skitter is still alive D4 then deathtunnel her too

[Menalque]

Aside mena do u try to kill town!me last night, was pondering that and it's kinda relevant to my read

I haven't really thought about it

probably not? not for gameplay reasons but just because I joined to play with you so I think I'd take my chances on leaving you alive and trying to fool you

[Menalque]

looks like a bus where they realized Mena was likely going down today

kind of a weird take when the day has been going for like 12 hours or something

[Menalque]

dunn is suggesting I'm scum who got blocked/maybe trying to soft a block on me in such a way that he can claim he was just speculating about it but not actually saying it if someone calls him on it tomorrow

[Menalque]

Could you maybe explain your thought process on why you went from Dunn to DGB at least?

rly rly easy -- I played against dunn in this setup on an alt earlier this year and he lurked incredibly hard and I thought he was scummy but he was actually a cop

so I decided to not push him too hard in case he was a good PR again who might have useful info in the night

[Menalque]

like, my thought was "hmmm dunn is scummy lurking, let's push him before end of day


...oh wait, he did this when he was cop last time, let's actually let him be and not give scum the excuse to get a claim from him by running him up"

[Menalque]

dunn is suggesting I'm scum who got blocked/maybe trying to soft a block on me in such a way that he can claim he was just speculating about it but not actually saying it if someone calls him on it tomorrow

Dude if you saw they were possibly sifting why would you out it unless you’re thinking their scum for it

scum will have already noticed what was a very blatant semi-soft from dunn, he wasn't being subtle

[Menalque]

Mena I know you've cased him but I need a bit more on Infinity. You say he's not scumhunting, which I can see to a degree... but he has taken a few stances on TGP, Daves and Hoopla.

There are other slots that I think have taken similar approaches to the game? Like you have S_S as a strong TR (which I agree with) but just judging by his gameplay, do you not think that he too hasn't really done all that much scumhunting? Which is something he has admitted to.

let me get back to this later, poke me if I forget in-between now and the next time I'm here

I don't think "taking a few stances" is equivalent to scum hunting tbf, if I'm scum I can very easily say "X, Y, Z are scum" "A, B, C are town" but if I haven't actually done anything to ascertain the alignments of those players, I'm not scumhunting

yeah, S_S is someone I've played with a lot (and I do err somewhat towards townreading him, a bias I'm aware of) but basically I don't think he's that scummy because this is in-line with his usual meta and there are a couple of things he's done which, while not enough to make him locktown, do make him town to me (I'm not revealing them specifically because I don't want him to know for the next time he rolls scum against me, if they're right )

I thought the bit where he argued with me about... something, I can't remember what, was also +town for him

[Menalque]

dunn is suggesting I'm scum who got blocked/maybe trying to soft a block on me in such a way that he can claim he was just speculating about it but not actually saying it if someone calls him on it tomorrow

Dude if you saw they were possibly sifting why would you out it unless you’re thinking their scum for it

scum will have already noticed what was a very blatant semi-soft from dunn, he wasn't being subtle

If you believe this, why do you think I'm scummy today?

bc you were doing it in such a way that if I got insta-flipped by a lolhammer you could claim tomorrow that you were just

speculating

about what happened and not actually claiming an action on me

you still haven't, which makes me unsure if you're town who's just very unsubtly softing (and also this seems like a misplay for town you especially if it seemed like I was going through anyway, why not wait and see or just push me for other reasons?) or scum who's faking the soft in a way that has deniability to try to make sure I go through

[Menalque]

also bc if you were JK then it could just as easily imply a kill attempt /on/ me, and idk why you'd choose RB as town but it would make a lot of sense for you to do so as scum

[Menalque]

it also prevents me from outing a check if I'm blocked

[Menalque]

Oh yeah of course it doesn't mean he is scum hunting but he did put some effort into casing Hoopla at least

Y-es, but anyone can effort when being called out for it directly. I think it’s a much better indicator what they’re doing when not under pressure (which is why in some games I keep my reads close to my chest for a while before outing them)

Infinity managed to put out a hoopla case under pressure that, like I said, I haven’t really evaluated yet but which didn’t grab me or astonish me

Whats he done today? Entered by sheeping the person who was picking up the most steam, in the same way that he followed the leading candidate for guillotine yesterday

Like there's definitely an element of "less" active scumhunting than a lot of other slots but I'm not sure if it's scum indicative to that extent?

Also can you give me your thoughts on TGP? Do you not think their play EOD was a bit off?

I need to look again at exactly what he did, but if it’s as you said then yeah, he’s sus, and his posts today have been Bad

[Menalque]

don't like how your scumreads are all people likely to be prs sorry that's gross

Like yeah, this is very obviously bad, what bearing would this have on my alignment? Imo it’s quite likely that the PRs have at least 2 scum

I know that the 5s are all town, I think it’s unlikely there’s more than 1 in the 4s and that’s about half the PL accounted for with only one PR revealed so far

So it makes sense fmpov that there are 2 scum in the first half of the draft, and the order of the draft is independent of alignment mostly and to the extent it IS related to alignment scum are generally slightly more likely to be earlier (bc they can coordinate to not pick the same numbers as each other)

[Menalque]

I’m lowkey a tiny bit paranoid that peta is white knighting me for the cred, and normally I’d be more worried about him given that DGB was hard scumreading him but I know she was wrong on me and so that makes me doubt her judgement this game more than I might if she’d been engaged and had correctly read me

[Menalque]

want some explanation from infinity as to his vote there

I said yesterday that I thought mena’s SR of me was genuine, but he didn’t maintain it too long into the game which is weird. When I started putting in some effort, he likely found it more difficult to argue I’m scum (bias of having TMI helps). I believe that he was too tired to read my hoopla thing, but I think town!mena maintains the passion for his SR on me.

I already explained this? You making an effort doesn’t make you town, but it /does/ make you easier to read than someone who wasn’t interested in doing that or producing content to be sorted making you a less good elim than the also-scummy-DGB

Whats your basis for saying I would have maintained my SR in you there as town?

[Menalque]

Attempted kill on me strongly spews infinity scum imo, and makes me think my scum!skitter theory is more likely than I did

[Menalque]

VOTE: infinity

[Menalque]

I think uncrowned is 100% town

I think S_S is strongly more likely to be town than not

I think petapan is primarily townie but I would recheck him carefully if the game goes to lylo, there is a chance, as I said, that he’s white knighting me for cred

Skitter could honestly go either way, I feel like her asking me if I’d try to kill her N1 was kinda town indicative but it’s (1) hard to explain why and (2) I don’t entirely want to at this point in the game

JV feels a lot like scum, and I would elim there

TGP could be scum but I wanna reread his EoD1 given what uncrowned was saying

I think me having an attempted kill on me means infinity is almost certainly scum

If infinity /isn’t/ scum, lilith should be obviously scum by claim

Dunn ???

PP felt townie yesterday but I’m realising now that without more interactions with him he’s not as likely to be town necessarily, but otoh I think scum him could prob vote me and be fine so let’s say he’s still town but I’m not as confident as with uncrowned and S_S, or even peta

Hoopla could go either way

Dave I’m gonna day is town after the weird thing yesterday, I think that prob was +town for him being kind of a dick about grammar or whatever it was, and I low-key think if skitt is scum she prob wouldn’t TR a buddy for that but I can’t justify perfectly why

[Menalque]

I think I missed something. How do we know Menalque was blocked? I thought Dunn only softed it and not actually claimed it so are we jumping the gun or is he outted?

lili claimed a JK on me

[Menalque]

lil, why JK?

[Menalque]

Basically, the solve is:

(Infinity, TGP, JV, one of lil/skitt)

I think

[Menalque]

DrippingGoofball (8): lilith2013, davesaz, Infinity 324, Menalque, PenguinPower, petapan, TheGoldenParadox, DrippingGoofball

If I had to guess, only 2 scum would likely be on here. Peta being one of them and PP and Paradox are both not scum due to vote placements. Leaving lilith, which is probably Town, and dave/menalque as I TR infinity.

I’ll do a consolidation vote on Mena since Dave’s tone is good and They’re the only one that could be scum outside of peta imo, and my push on peta is going nowhere for now but I definitely still SR the hell out of that slot

VOTE: Menalque

This is a really way over justified vote tbh

And his takes are just like he’s floating

[Menalque]

I’m now actually lowkey thinking skitter may be more likely scum if infinity is town tbh, so flip infinity tomorrow and then flip skitt IF he’s town too

Which would imply scum framed infinity by no killing

[Menalque]

Or tried to kill me, but hit the JK block, and were planning to use my death to get infinity today

[Menalque]

There would be zero reason to yeet you N1 as mafia so you're scum now trying to anti-spew

Why would there be zero reason to yeet me N1?

[Menalque]

That makes you >rand scum my friend.

Yea but my role PM makes me infinitely >rand town so

[Menalque]

And like, as I know what I’m gonna flip I can give instructions for what to do once I’m dead knowing I’ll be conftown and that other town (like uncrowned and S_S can lsiten to my reads and trust them as absolutely being in good faith and as trying to help town)

[Menalque]

Which would imply scum framed infinity by no killing

How would they know you got JKed?

I feel like if you're town a doc save is likely what's going on

No I’m saying that they were expecting me to die, and were then gonna use my hard scumread on you to yeet you the next day if you were town

[Menalque]

That makes you >rand scum my friend.

Yea but my role PM makes me infinitely >rand town so

*yawn*

^this is scum trying to justify leaving their vote on me

[Menalque]

I'm really struggling to see two things here, both conflicting.

(1)In what scum-team does Mena perform the NK?

(2)And what scum-team tries to NK Mena here?

(1) not that many probably, but I would be more likely to be making it early game fwiw. I generally try to be one of the endgaming scum, which means avoiding making the NK bc of the risks involved, I only normally make it if between my team we think it's very likely that the rest of the team would be followed/tracker/there'll be a watcher on the target

(2) someone who knows me, or someone threatened by me. it could be as simple as infinity wanting me gone because I pursued him hard yesterday, or it could be skitter (who has, in other games, mentioned that I'm a relatively high priority NK for her when she's scum, although admittedly I'm not sure if I'm her top kill choice). I don't think the penguin would try to kill me. I think lilith quite possibly would, but she's the one claiming to have jailkept me *shrug*. dunn might, JV might... I think that's probably it for the people who could be scum who know me well enough or who I was focused on yesterday to want to kill me

the only other thing I can think of is that, as I mentioned, it was an attempt to frame others, like infinity and lilith for killing me. but I'm not sure that's the most likely

[Menalque]

That makes you >rand scum my friend.

Yea but my role PM makes me infinitely >rand town so

*yawn*

^this is town after seeing a >rand scum try and make a stupid ass defense

Fixed it for you

if u were town u'd be interested in engaging with me and trying to sort my slot, not just trying to shade me and make me look bad fam

[Menalque]

this game I'm either almost entirely bang on or the scumteam has me entirely snowed I think

I just get a lil paranoid when I look at the wagon and see that it's pretty much entirely my scum reads, that makes me a bit concerned that I've been hard pocketed by scum and I'm just OMGUSing everyone on me while scum stay away to look good

ORRRR I have almost every scum pegged/maybe all of them, so they're willing to pile onto me to ensure the elimination

[Menalque]

I think sorting lilith/skitter both individually and in relation to one another is quite possibly the key to cracking this game

if they're both town it's prob just (infinity, JV, TGP) with an outsider chance of hoopla being there if one of the others is wrong

[Menalque]

dunn might, JV might... I think that's probably it for the people who could be scum who know me well enough or who I was focused on yesterday to want to kill me

Um. No

Uncrowned and skitter would have been my kill

okay, but you don't make the kill choice on your own do you JV

or are you telling me that you're the one who'd be leading the scumteam in the world where you're scum?

[Menalque]

No I can't be assed

"I can't be assed to sort the slot I'm voting for" -- JacksonVirgo, 5 November 2020

^who is looking at this and thinking it's town

[Menalque]

Spoiler:

the answer is: actually, maybe me? idk that's kind of a weird take for scum to have when called out for voting someone without bothering to sort them and it low-key possibly makes JV town, I wanna talk about it with S_S, uncrowned, peta, maybe skitt

[Menalque]

In no world would anyone attack you over them.

hate to break it to you pal

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JV might be town

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JV can you link me a couple of your most recent scum games, I wanna look at something

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I'm not TRing JV, I'm reconsidering him

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I'm not TRing JV, I'm reconsidering them

ebwop

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also, sorry if I've been getting your pronoun wrong, JV

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yeah, it's like the "Jackson" thing crossed with the avi that I just wasn't looking too hard and kind of assumed. now I've registered it in my head I'm normally pretty good about remembering

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JV, how good would you say your reads are in general?

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also, what's your read on Dave?

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so you're scum now trying to anti-spew

incidentally, lol

'trying'

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also, JV, when I townflip what does that do for your reads and your "scum has no reason to yeet you N1 theory"

like when that's public information, what avenue are you going to pursue tomorrow?

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I will assume that a doctor caught a kill over you being attacked outright

how does this fit with lili claiming to have JK me and us knowing that the PGO/1s vig slot was already dead

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so you're scum now trying to anti-spew

incidentally, lol

'trying'

What do you mean

I mean anti-spew or wrongspewing is something I'm consistently like very good at as scum, and when I have gone down as scum early-ish my spew has pretty much always helped my partners (either to a win, or I think in other games where I've died early my partner(s) have mostly made it to a minimum of lylo)

[Menalque]

so I wouldn't be 'trying' to anti-spew as scum rn

I would be successfully anti-spewing or successfully setting up people who aren't my partners

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I'm like, a tiny bit high and generally in a super good mood today which is why I don't mind walking through this all today, but if it's a thing where I'm always getting elim'd if infinity flips town then I'd rather be flipped first today because it's very dispiriting making an effort to townspew yourself only to then getting eliminated for your trouble the next day because you got a read wrong

I am making specific reference to this game, where I soft defended scum D1 (something I never do when scum, pretty much), hard effort on D2 to avoid being mis-elim'd, and then bc I was wrong about who I eventually pivoted to, got eliminated despite all that effort

so I'm gonna say the same thing I did there as I am here: if you decide I'm town today, you fucking stick to it and you bring me through the endgame regardless of whether I'm wrong on infinity/skitter or not. if you're not willing to make that commitment despite me hard efforting today (and I am willing to, but only if this condition is met) then you elim me today and listen to my reads while deciding elims for the next couple of days

[Menalque]

Also, if you were scum here. And you are successfully anti-spewing, you would actually be trying as I called you out. Checkmate lmfao

'trying' makes it sound like I would be intending to but not succeeding. I'm just saying that if I were scum, I would be successfully anti-spewing

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JV, how good would you say your reads are in general?

Hard to tell recently and it depends on how into the game I am. If I'm super into the game I can nail at least one scum D1 most of the time, unless they're super good.

For example, in my recent Bats mini normal game I nailed one scum on the head (shellyc) and in a semi-recent newbie game I got both D1. Although if I'm not too into a game for any reason or if I'm in too many/too busy to play my reads somewhat fall down a bit. It's like a 20-30% difference though. Like my peta read is probably not as accurate as my shelly read from that game but it's still extremely likely to flip mafia imo.

Usually my strongest read is mainly based on things I can't really word properly so I've gotta get better at expressing my thoughts properly through the forums and I've been trying to get better with that.

Did that answer it or did I got on a tangent unknowingly

basically

why is peta scum again?

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I will assume that a doctor caught a kill over you being attacked outright

how does this fit with lili claiming to have JK me and us knowing that the PGO/1s vig slot was already dead

What do you mean? The PGO and the JKer aren't in the doctors slot.

Also for setup spec stuff. Why would scum choose JKer over Roleblocker. Rber has the doctor on their ass field whereas JKer has tracker which is much weaker in comparison which makes Lilith town especially as the #1 picker.

dude, I mean that if JK targeted me and given that there's a missing NK, that means that I have to have been saved by the JK targeting me unless the scum did no kill which seems unlikely

[Menalque]

so I'm gonna say the same thing I did there as I am here: if you decide I'm town today, you fucking stick to it and you bring me through the endgame regardless of whether I'm wrong on infinity/skitter or not. if you're not willing to make that commitment despite me hard efforting today (and I am willing to, but only if this condition is met) then you elim me today and listen to my reads while deciding elims for the next couple of days

i don't like these kind of ultimatums.

the town would never agree to it, so this is all just bluster designed to emotionally manipulate.

I mean you say that

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... rt_order=d

I had the most posts despite the day going another entire DAY afterwards, pumped out by far the most effort and attempts to solve throughout the game especially on D2, and then got eliminated for my troubles bc I was wrong

you may say it's silly or an unreasonable demand, maybe it is, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm not willing to put in that level of effort again just to be eliminated for it tomorrow if I'm wrong today, it's not worth it to me

[Menalque]

I will assume that a doctor caught a kill over you being attacked outright

how does this fit with lili claiming to have JK me and us knowing that the PGO/1s vig slot was already dead

What do you mean? The PGO and the JKer aren't in the doctors slot.

Also for setup spec stuff. Why would scum choose JKer over Roleblocker. Rber has the doctor on their ass field whereas JKer has tracker which is much weaker in comparison which makes Lilith town especially as the #1 picker.

dude, I mean that if JK targeted me and given that there's a missing NK, that means that I have to have been saved by the JK targeting me unless the scum did no kill which seems unlikely

How the hell does this work. You being JKed and a doctor heal is not mutually exclusive events.

oh I see what you mean now

as in, you think a doctor was on uncrowned/skitter and saved the kill on them, while at the same time I happened to be JK'd?

[Menalque]

we fluffed around for 50+ pages on D1

you don't think the content on D1 was useful? why?

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I will assume that a doctor caught a kill over you being attacked outright

how does this fit with lili claiming to have JK me and us knowing that the PGO/1s vig slot was already dead

What do you mean? The PGO and the JKer aren't in the doctors slot.

Also for setup spec stuff. Why would scum choose JKer over Roleblocker. Rber has the doctor on their ass field whereas JKer has tracker which is much weaker in comparison which makes Lilith town especially as the #1 picker.

dude, I mean that if JK targeted me and given that there's a missing NK, that means that I have to have been saved by the JK targeting me unless the scum did no kill which seems unlikely

How the hell does this work. You being JKed and a doctor heal is not mutually exclusive events.

oh I see what you mean now

as in, you think a doctor was on uncrowned/skitter and saved the kill on them, while at the same time I happened to be JK'd?

Correct, I see that as more likely than you being protected by a JK from my perspective.

I just had a moment of absolute despair when I thought doc got feedback but they don't on this site do they? I forget

they do not

I lowkey dislike the what, 3?, dumbtells you've done today

I guess I've seen stranger things than doc saving on the same night as someone being JK'd but I don't think I'm a ~low~ priority NK here (maybe if I'm totally wrong) and so knowing there's a missing NK and that someone was on me does make me think that it's a somewhat more likely world that JK saved on me than that JK was on me and by coincidence doc saved elsewhere too

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Do you put in as much effort when you're scum?

yeah, my effort tell doesn't really work any more

I used to struggle to reach high postcounts/engagement but I don't think that's true anymore

maybe I struggle a little bit more to post consistently throughout the game as scum than as town? and so do more like spurts of energy and stuff then disappear for a day or two, but mostly effort is NAI for me

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Wait how did Dunnstral know that Mena was blocked?

he was softing it but he didn't outright claim it

but is quite possibly scum, who knows that a kill on me failed

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I lowkey dislike the what, 3?, dumbtells you've done today

Wdym

I mean the stuff where you've been like "oh huh wait did someone claim a block on mena?" and "how does doctor work again?"

could be legit, but I've been burned before by scum faking disengagement or lack of knowledge to look townie (in the Secrets of Anuket game that I just linked, actually)

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Short version? Lied to a question, I called them out, they retracted and said the supposed "truth" this time thus they were lying by omission and their tone via the first answer leaves absolutely no hints at all of alterior motives even though they had one. Tone surrounding me calling them out literally is a dumpster fire compared to their posts before that and as soon as people starting backing them up their tone returned.

if they lied and you called it out and it was very obvious they lied, why do you think you've gotten like no traction there on your push?

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you're talking about the peta unvote on uncrowned and pivot onto infinity, right?

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I wonder if (TPG, peta, ...) is a possibility here

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you're talking about the peta unvote on uncrowned and pivot onto infinity, right?

About the lying thing? No?

where am I looking in his ISO then?

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I mean I don't think we can really blame JV for missing stuff given the circumstances. I think I'd be missing a bunch of shit too if I had the last couple of days they've had

yea I mean, that's a fair point but like JV is an intelligent player so the doc thing set me worrying more than the other bits

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skitter, can you talk about your JV townread please?

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I'm now considering a solve of (TGP, peta, dunn, infinity)

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yes, I'm obviously aware that one name in there must be wrong

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I'm now considering a solve of (TGP, peta, dunn, infinity)

to be clear, I'm not saying this is the solve but I'm saying I'm considering it alongside my earlier suggested solve/PoE

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Mena i'm starting to get really tired/frustrated that you keep swiping at me.

I dont really get why you're scumreading me, and i dont feel like you're trying to sort me

I'm not 100% convinced that you're scum here (in fact i think that all of this you're posting e-1 is more likely than not coming from town, if we ignore the mechanics of it all) and i would like to at least get to a point wherr i'm comfortable with my read on you before we wnd the day.

I really dont like your scumread on me tho, it doesnt make much sense to me

where do you think I'm doing this? I am uncomfortable with you SRing me and that you entered the day pushing me, and with the fact that you've been linked (imo) with infinity

I'm still trying to treat you in good faith and work with you as much as possible, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect me to be 100% comfortable with you when I wouldn't necessarily expect you to have been SRing me to the point that I was the main person you wanted dead D2 and this is me trying to reconcile that

I'm not sure what exactly my read is on you. for one thing, idk if you as scum would unvote me when you did, but equally I think you might have if you were worried me pointing the finger at you while dying would bring unwanted attention

I'm kinda around although my class is just restarting now, but I want to try to work with you today even if idk at this point whether I will be able to get to a solid TR on you?

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Wait I swear I made a case with links and all that

pedit: What makes you think I'm an intelligent player Mena, I don't recall ever playing many if any games with you.

well you have a 7-1 town win set from your google sheets records page so I'm assuming you're not an idiot

also you've been around on-site for a while and I just get that vibe from your posting this game

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maybe intelligent is wrong? you seem competent as either alignment so that makes me unsure if you'd really forget which version of doctor we have on this site

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Mena i'm starting to get really tired/frustrated that you keep swiping at me.

like I'm sorry you feel this way but I don't think it's fair of you to expect me to be town reading you here really, and given that I'm not (I'm v conflicted on you) I don't think it's fair to expect me to not express that unease that I'm feeling to the rest of the thread

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my question is: if lili is scum, why claim a JK on me to try and get me flipped knowing I will flip town? how does scum lili get out of that D3/4?

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okay I gotta go this is really distracting me from my class lmao, I'll be on again later

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I'm just saying that if I were scum, I would be successfully anti-spewing

So you would just give up?

where did I say that?

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oh, we mean different things by "anti-spew"

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I can't find it anywhere. I'll link some bois

1454 - The only wall I can find on them, which is weird since I SWEAR I made one.

64 - Their initial response to the quesitom.
593 - Is where I initially called them out.
601 - Their cheap ass response to that and then discrediting me for it.
615 - Compare the tone around this post in their iso to the rest of the game.

This is just from the top of my head as I'm still super tired from hospital

could you respond to this please peta, specifically why didn't you engage in your 615 at all?

[Menalque]

where do you think I'm doing this? I am uncomfortable with you SRing me and that you entered the day pushing me, and with the fact that you've been linked (imo) with infinity

I'm still trying to treat you in good faith and work with you as much as possible, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect me to be 100% comfortable with you when I wouldn't necessarily expect you to have been SRing me to the point that I was the main person you wanted dead D2 and this is me trying to reconcile that

Well i guess for me like i ... 1 just dont understand where the scumread on me is coming from, or 2 why you think i'm linked to infinity so strongly, so it almost feels like you keep bringing up these scumreads/associatives that dont make sense to me out like thin air, and i dont know why you're thinking them

3 I dont think ut's super accurate to say that i wanted you dead day2

I started off voting you cuz i didnt like the dgb vote, and wanted to use that to sort you better. That early vote wasnt really intending to lead all the way to an elim, at least not just then without more sorting

I kinda clearly got spooked when your wagon got that high and you startes posting in a way that i think is +town for you

And when lilitj announced a semi-guilty i got back on, yes, but the more i think of it neither of yours' play matches what i expect there. Like lilith i still dont townread, and i'm not sold on you!scum, and i think your posting this morning is +town

I hope that explains my thought process ^
4 Can we both just like take a step back and try to sort each other again in earnest? Cuz if ur town i dont want to vote you out, and want to work with you

(1) I was, and still am, bothered by your assertion that my approach to DGB/infinity yesterday is/was scum!indicative for me. You know me as a player, you have, I think, one of the highest rates of games played with me of all users (along with like, ducky, icon, datisi etc) and particularly you've played against my scumgame more than once. I would expect you to know that I am as both alignments, but especially as scum, very self-aware (to the point I get SR for it as town on a semi-regular basis). Therefore, I'd expect you to know that I would know that moving off infinity onto DGB isn't like a "good look" for me when it comes to surface-level optics. Moving from one town (A) -> a different town (B) when you've been expressing a strong SR on (A) and talking about (B) being a compromise won't win you a lot of friends.

But scum!me would be aware of that, and as there was no pressing need for scum!me to eliminate DGB there, there was no reason for scum!me to look bad (even if only when it comes to surface-level optics, because I think the argument I'm making here is quite sound) when I could have been looking good by sticking to me infinity!scum read. It also would have set me up to push infinity easily today if I were scum.

If you were arguing that I could be scum who moved off to make the argument I'm making in the above paragraph (i.e. mena doing something that looks bad for him as scum isn't really clearing and he did vote to elim town in the end) that would be an argument I can see from town!you. What I'm really having issue with is that you think scum!me chooses to look bad at an optical level to arbitrarily eliminate one town over a different town.

Especially when we've explicitly talked about how we both plan, from D1, what the route to the win is and you know I'm very calculated in that way as scum. Why do something that hurts me for no gain? I don't get why you think scum!me would do that.

(2) I don't think you're linked "so strongly" although I talked about it a fair amount on D1 so I see why you had that impression. I think there is maybe some sort of relation between the two of you, but at this point I'm not sure what. Yesterday, I was thinking it was you covering for a buddy. Today, I'm thinking it may have been you white knighting for cred. I'm not sure. I think there's something there in you kind of providing some cover for him when other people brought him up, but I'm not sure exactly what that implies for your alignment. I'd just like it considered if/when I die.

(3) It sure felt like it, seeing as you entered voting for me, and then encouraged voting for me, and now I've been sitting at G-1 for a while with the only CW sort of starting to take off now. I'm aware of the unvotes. But like I said I'm also a little concerned that scum!you may have decided that if I was speedwagoned to death that you didn't want me to die pointing the finger at you. Which would mean that you're moving off me to now to damage control of our relationship in the bounds of this game/possibly to justify eliminating elsewhere today to bring me along later as GYLO bait or something.

(4) I would also like this, but as mentioned I have some reservations about your play (related to the reason you gave for SRing me, and what I think scum!you might do if you knew that someone was about to die while loudly calling you scum), and that's not something I can automatically quash or forget about. I will try to do my best to work with you, but I don't want to set town up to fail by incorrectly TRing you just because you backed off me a little and asked to work with me only for you to then flip on me later/NK me after I TR you and then use my (presumably in that circumstance incorrect) TRs to push misguillos on my PoE until you get to a win.

[Menalque]

anyone know what TGP is at?

[Menalque]

oh, we mean different things by "anti-spew"

I guess. I thought mine was the established definition: you're a lost cause, so shut up so you don't give anything else away.

What did you mean?

I guess maybe I should say counter-spew or something

I mean talking a lot to intentionally create bad associatives/associatives with people who aren't my partners that my actual partners can then exploit after my flip

[Menalque]

VOTE: TGP

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Are you just sheeping or did you come to your own conclusion on the slot? You've seemed 50/50 on TGP for most of the game

I am mostly sheeping

I know that I'm not a wagon on scum, TGP could well be, seems different at a glance from when I played with him before, and my top TR just gave me a (fairly) compelling set of reasons for him being scum

[Menalque]

Mena i appreciate you responding, gonna read it closer/answer it later / might take till after work today

that's cool, no rush

[Menalque]

And what do you mean about it not synthesizing?

I assume this is the same thing that JV was getting at: why do scum try to NK me? who would have to be in that scumteam for them to target me?

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I wonder if it's (TGP, peta, lili/dunn)

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idk what role infinity is playing in all this if that's the case tho

[Menalque]

I feel like the choice is only between killing Menalque today and killing Menalque in a few days.

I mean, it doesn't have to be this way if y'all choose not for it to be

[Menalque]

Why Peta?

@me I assume?

3 things basically

(1) DGB was insistent that I and peta were scum as she died -- I strongly believe in listening to dead town as a way to improve performance, you know you can trust them and that they're acting in good faith. she was wrong on me, but might have been right on peta -- the fact I know she was wrong on me makes it harder to trust this read.

(2) I still sort of feel like peta could be pocketing me/white knighting me for the cred today, and I've often noticed that if the entire scumteam /isn't/ trying to misyeet me, you often lean towards TRing those defending you which then gives them the cover after you flip town to say "wait, look, dead person X said I was town, let's get the nasty people who pushed the person who has now flipped town!" there's been enough support for killing me today that I definitely look scummy to at least a few town players -- why don't I look that way to peta. fmpov, it's because I'm being very reasonable and pointing out why the reasons for scum!me are bad. but why is he seeing that but other town players aren't? it might just be that he's playing better this game, but it might be bc he already knows I'm town

(3) he's reluctant to vote TGP despite not thinking I'm scum, while making a point of how TGP coooouuuuuld be scum, and I currently think TGP has high equity and this is a partner-y type of position to take

[Menalque]

I'm not particularly scumreading mena's play either but if I'm responsible for the block, then I don't really see him being a priority NK

well, I'm not scum, so given that there's a reasonable chance I die today anyway for mechanical reasons, would you care to advance a theory now on what happened last night that explains the lack of NK and my living-ness? for instance, who would target me?

[Menalque]

I think there are basically only 3 reasonably possible worlds here, if lil is being honest about her action?

(1) I was JK'd and scum tried to kill me, hence no NK

(2) I was JK'd but it meant nothing bc the doctor targeted skitter(?) and got a save there

(3) scum decided to no-kill for WIFOM reasons

as much as I love the play of (3), and sometimes fantasise about it, I never actually have because the advantages never seem worth it

so fmpov, unless lil is just totally lying about everything, either I was targeted for the NK and lil's JK on me saved me, or it means absolutely nothing and the no-NK is bc the doctor saved elsewhere

it's just irritating it's D2 bc very VERY obviously the doctor shouldn't' claim if we have one, but that's the only way to reconcile things if scum didn't try to NK me