Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Game Over!

[Uncrowned]

Glad to be back!

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

[Uncrowned]

This will be more fun.

UNVOTE: TheGoldenParadox

VOTE: lilith

[Uncrowned]

Also i'm intrigued that scum picked informed, i prob would have picked multitasking

you're lucky you voted correctly, otherwise i would be all over this.

Go on?

[Uncrowned]

Go on?

looks to me like a sneaky opening line cooked up behind the scenes.

the intention of course being to feign surprise & assert innocence.

Also i'm intrigued that scum picked informed, i prob would have picked multitasking

you're lucky you voted correctly, otherwise i would be all over this.

Go on?

I think this is saying that saying "I did would have done X but scum did Y so I can't be scum" kind of self-defense which is generally really scummy in some circumstances

I guess? I see the point being made, but that could easily come from either alignment.

If anything, I like skitter more for making a post like that in a circumstance where it could draw unnecessary attention at this stage of the game.

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: Uncrowned

I unironically like this vote.

[Uncrowned]

Also i'm intrigued that scum picked informed, i prob would have picked multitasking

you're lucky you voted correctly, otherwise i would be all over this.

Go on?

I think this is saying that saying "I did would have done X but scum did Y so I can't be scum" kind of self-defense which is generally really scummy in some circumstances

Follow up on this actually: So do you agree with Hoopla's premise or are you just giving your interpretation of what it meant?

[Uncrowned]

no that is hooplas trick

i say we slice & dice the singletons.

seeing such a large amount of medium & high numbers looks like a deliberate scum strategy to land unique numbers. a high number selection usually guarantees a pick in the top half of the draft.

With this thought process in mind, how many scum do you think there is between myself (14) Infinity (23) and Petapan (100000)?

[Uncrowned]

Explain why you've left JV off the scumteam, since they also picked for. Did their P1 posting factor in at all?

[Uncrowned]

Even though it's mostly meme content that often goes unnoticed anyway?

I don't think it's particularly alignment indicative

[Uncrowned]

So nice you had to do it twice!

[Uncrowned]

With this thought process in mind, how many scum do you think there is between myself (14) Infinity (23) and Petapan (100000)?

i want to say peta's bid of a million is another brazen, highly suspicious scum move cooked up in the PT...

...but she's already pointed the finger at me, and we all know it's improper etiquette to accuse your accuser.

I'd much prefer you take a stance than worry about etiquette.

[Uncrowned]

Explain why you've left JV off the scumteam, since they also picked for. Did their P1 posting factor in at all?

What do you mean by P1?

your posting on page 1

[Uncrowned]

I think peta may have slipped up there if they're scum or just completely subconsciously just TR'd me and slipped that. Unsure

I actually saw it as some potential early distancing from a scum buddy or two if there are any in that group. Might be smart to keep track of how these players flip as the game progresses

[Uncrowned]

that group being hoopla TGP and penguin

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: Pine

Was this random?

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: Uncrowned

I unironically like this vote.

what'd you like about it, anyway

Being second to vote someone during RVS instead of voting someone new is something I generally did in my town games when I used to play. I feel like in the past it has helped generate discussion than a vote on someone else would

[Uncrowned]

Goodnight fam, off to sleep now. I'll try to post tomorrow afternoon but I'm going out tomorrow

have fun!

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: Uncrowned

I unironically like this vote.

what'd you like about it, anyway

Being second to vote someone during RVS instead of voting someone new is something I generally did in my town games when I used to play. I feel like in the past it has helped generate discussion than a vote on someone else would

naked wagon vote from a sufficiently high level player is null, response seems a bit forced imo

VOTE: Uncrowned

Well I'm not aware of the "level" of anyone here so not sure how that's relevant

And nah, JV can vouch that's what I used to do in my games and I've used this exact reasoning for it in the past. It's just my meta.

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: Pine

Was this random?

idk what do you think

Not sure. I didn't particularly like Pine posting without voting but idk if that's AI at all

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: Uncrowned

I unironically like this vote.

what'd you like about it, anyway

Being second to vote someone during RVS instead of voting someone new is something I generally did in my town games when I used to play. I feel like in the past it has helped generate discussion than a vote on someone else would

naked wagon vote from a sufficiently high level player is null, response seems a bit forced imo

VOTE: Uncrowned

Id actually like to go more in depth on this. Do you think scum goes out of their way to comment on something relatively obscure like Dripping's naked vote there? If so, why?

[Uncrowned]

Id actually like to go more in depth on this. Do you think scum goes out of their way to comment on something relatively obscure like Dripping's naked vote there? If so, why?

naked vote on you, you want to seem unbothered by it, so you go out to compliment it even though it's pretty much null. nervous energy to it you putting out cockamamie theories like me distancing from a teammate by making jokes about the 4s

That's assuming I actually care about being voted this early into D1.

A similar assumption would be me saying you're worried about the theory I made, hence why you're coming at me now with this, since you didn't bring it up until after I came up with the theory.

[Uncrowned]

With this thought process in mind, how many scum do you think there is between myself (14) Infinity (23) and Petapan (100000)?

i want to say peta's bid of a million is another brazen, highly suspicious scum move cooked up in the PT...

...but she's already pointed the finger at me, and we all know it's improper etiquette to accuse your accuser.

Still not sure I like this last bit. Feels like potential scum not wanting to take a stance on a slot in case they end up in an early conflict which draws attention to them.

Is there a reason you shaded Peta here instead of taking a proper stance?

[Uncrowned]

I agree that we shouldn't focus too heavily on the picks D1. Too much WIFOM there until we get more associations and flips imo.

[Uncrowned]

Hoopla can you give an update on your thoughts on Peta

[Uncrowned]

On reread I like Hoopla's bringing up of Infinity "piggybacking" as it was similar to what I felt of his early posting, although the more recent questioning has been a little better imo

[Uncrowned]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Infinity 324

Could I get your reasons behind this?

[Uncrowned]

Infinity, is there a reason you're not using your vote atm?

Speaking of, here's a better place for mine.

UNVOTE: Lilith

VOTE: PenguinPower

[Uncrowned]

Ooo, this is fun. Time for some info.

[Uncrowned]

Outside of "wagons" (which is fine early reasoning tbh) did you have any motives for voting me, or was this it?

[Uncrowned]

Cool. If I told you I did the same thing to you just now to even up with me to promote discussion, would you believe it, or do you think this is scum!me worried about my votes and trying to get a counter-wagon going?

[Uncrowned]

It's not OMGUS on my behalf I just want Penguin to play a bit more

It worked

[Uncrowned]

The thing with the wagon is that two of the players on it have been inactive. It's not a threat.

And even if it was, I like to think myself as smart enough as scum to avoid attention by dropping a vote on you when it could generate this sort of reaction

[Uncrowned]

#169 assumes, again, that I'm bothered by people voting me, which is what Peta thought as well.

Small early wagons consisting of inactive players is the least of my worries.

Penguin "baiting" my vote (I guess? idk what to call it) + the vote on Lilith just prior to that feels more town than scum imo

[Uncrowned]

And even if it was, I like to think myself as smart enough as scum to avoid attention by dropping a vote on you when it could generate this sort of reaction

The fact that you're aware of it invalidates it, though.

This is true! It's all WIFOM I suppose but the question is what's the more optimal play for scum!me

1: I stay on Lilith and wait until that wagon picks up and we get them to play

or

2: I risk getting into this sort of WIFOMy interaction where I have to defend myself by voting Penguin to get more discussion going?

[Uncrowned]

...exactly my point?

[Uncrowned]

Or am I missing your meaning

[Uncrowned]

Something_Smart your vote in play on myself, Lilith or Penguin would be good here.

[Uncrowned]

that kind of goes for everyone but we got a few inactive slots atm ):

[Uncrowned]

...i completely forgot that the majority of people here aren't AEST lmao my bad

[Uncrowned]

Skitter/Penguin do you think Infinity is playing a little passive here or do you think its warranted given the state of the game right now?

[Uncrowned]

Skitter vote was bad. Unvote is bad.

Not sure what you mean by passive.

By passive I mean the unvote and how to me he sort of seems like he's playing "read and react" atm rather than pushing anything himself, kind of like how Hoopla mentioned he was piggybacking off of some of Skitter's earlier posts.

[Uncrowned]

We're the 3 with multiple votes on us and your vote in play is more useful than no vote i believe

[Uncrowned]

Skitter vote was bad. Unvote is bad.

Not sure what you mean by passive.

By passive I mean the unvote and how to me he sort of seems like he's playing "read and react" atm rather than pushing anything himself, kind of like how Hoopla mentioned he was piggybacking off of some of Skitter's earlier posts.

It's a playstyle thing, I'm starting to think I can get better reads by talking to people than pressuring them.

That's fair. Not really aware of people's meta hence why I prod on these sorts of things

[Uncrowned]

The latter mainly, but it also gets you to make a decision which in any case is a positive imo

[Uncrowned]

it doesn't HAVE to be but i think it achieves more than voting someone without a vote or with only one vote

plus penguin and I have been more discussed slots at this point in time so I think votes on us would provide more info

[Uncrowned]

ah I didn't think of that tbh but if people aren't voting anyway then we're getting even less out of them?

[Uncrowned]

s_s do you have reads?

busywork question

Kind of agree actually. Infinity you say yourself there's no readable content but you're asking someone else for reads?

[Uncrowned]

actually I misrepped there, you didn't say there's no readable content but that you're waiting for some more readable content. Still, I'd think you'd have reads then if you're ready to be asking other people for their reads

[Uncrowned]

Because from what he said, it looked like he thought there wasn't enough readable content to make a vote and his reads were limited at the time.

Asking someone for theirs when they haven't done a lot themselves is a bit weird. In a vacuum I don't believe it's all that AI but given the context from before it pinged me a little

[Uncrowned]

I'm confident enough in PP for now

UNVOTE: PenguinPower

VOTE: Lilith

[Uncrowned]

Hey JV what do you think about the Lilith wagon?

[Uncrowned]

Goodnight fam, off to sleep now. I'll try to post tomorrow afternoon but I'm going out tomorrow

have fun!

Turns out I'm not going out lol

)':

What state are you in again? IM FINALLY BEING LET FREE FROM LOCKDOWN TOMORROW

[Uncrowned]

Hey JV what do you think about the Lilith wagon?

If the reasoning based off that wagon is that they're 100% PR it's dumb, I personally think the wagon is bad and I don't see what's super scummy about lilith either.

To be fair she hasn't posted enough to really ping as either alignment, but I don't mind her as an early wagon.

What I do find more interesting about it is Hoopla joining it

[Uncrowned]

Goodnight fam, off to sleep now. I'll try to post tomorrow afternoon but I'm going out tomorrow

have fun!

Turns out I'm not going out lol

)':

What state are you in again? IM FINALLY BEING LET FREE FROM LOCKDOWN TOMORROW

Queensland, the restrictions here arent that bad. We acn generally do what we used to but have to keep distances and X amount of people in certain stores etc.

The reason I couldn't go is because of a heckin' storm coming our way. One hit us yesterday and it's comin' back lol

Ahhh that's rough. But yeah I'm glad you guys have been able to get out a bit. These last couple months have sucked here in melb lmao

[Uncrowned]

If we're comparing Skitter to Peta (who you're voting) in terms of non-setup related discussion, they're pretty similar, no?

So are you basing your TL on Skitter off of just that initial stuff, or has some of her stuff after that pinged you positively as well?

On the flipside, is the sole reason behind your Peta vote him switching from me to Infinity?

[Uncrowned]

See, I feel like scum!peta is more likely to stay voted on me in that scenario, tbh.

Unless he's predicting that Infinity is going to get wagoned at some point and wants to get on it earlier, but I feel like Infinity is too much of a null-read at the moment for that to be the case.

[Uncrowned]

Mmm, I guess. I'll have to check when he unvoted me, because there were 4 votes on me at one stage.

[Uncrowned]

Yeah, so Peta unvoted me and switched to Infinity while I was at 4.

While I agree I'm not a huge threat to be lynched, there was still enough votes on me to where I think scum could see it as a possible mislynch opportunity.

If he waited until after you and Penguin unvoted me, I feel like that would've been more telling, but I don't think so in this scenario. Just my opinion tho.

[Uncrowned]

What scum usually lack behind their reads are a solid trajectory behind them, because that's hard to fake.

I don't know how useful that is though considering this hasn't exactly been the most readable game in terms of AI content.

[Uncrowned]

So far JV's two reads have been myself and Skitter as town.

Would you mind elaborating on these a bit more JV?

[Uncrowned]

looks to me like he threw out a surface-level offhand 'read' on skitter, then when someone pressed him on it, he just made up some BS and doubled down on it when pressed again.

This is in theory possible, but not what I was asking. It's possible that they made it up out of thin air; it's also possible that they misremembered skitter's posts as being longer than they were. If they did misremember, that's obviously not alignment indicative, so what makes you think it was a fabrication rather than an error?

This could hold some weight behind it as JV did also forget about the time of Peta's unvote.

[Uncrowned]

Actually, probably more noteworthy is skitter's response to that read.

She just took it in stride and told JV it was NAI instead of pointing out that she didn't have any long posts.

What do you take from her not pointing it out?

[Uncrowned]

I'm only slightly aware of Skitter's rep and have only had one game with her hence why I asked

I feel like most good players would make a similar move as either alignment

[Uncrowned]

If we're comparing Skitter to Peta (who you're voting) in terms of non-setup related discussion, they're pretty similar, no?

In what way?

In terms of activity, availability of reads, and just general game content, although I think Peta has been a bit more aggressive.

I wanted to know if JV's vote on Peta was based solely on how Peta had changed his vote, or if it was based on his previous posting.

It's not a 1:1 comparison but more of a "I saw you both as slightly townie" at the time and wanted to know JV's thought process.

[Uncrowned]

I dont think jv's comment is as bad as its being made out to be

Neither do I necessarily but I can see it being picked out as weaker posting in a game that imo has had a lot of people posting quite well.

Do you dislike any slots on the JV wagon atm?

[Uncrowned]

Lilith, dave's vote was meh too
Hoopla's i'm also a bit iffy on but i think i need some more there before fully making an opinion

Hoopla went from the Lilith wagon to the JV wagon pretty quick, which was kinda concerning but at the same time kind of bold for a scum player to do? Makes it difficult for me to judge.

[Uncrowned]

is defending yourself against dunnstral so important that you need to blow up your attempt to test lilith before she responds

I haven't played too many games outside of newbie queue, but do you think most experienced players getting early wagoned don't already know it's kind of a reaction test?

[Uncrowned]

JV/Skitter haven't interacted a whole lot directly, but have lightly defended each other here and there.

Skitter does this as town I'm pretty sure (idk about JV) but in the event one of them flips red there's some equity there imo

The one newbie I played with Skit she also did this so it's definitely not outside her scumrange from my knowledge

[Uncrowned]

is defending yourself against dunnstral so important that you need to blow up your attempt to test lilith before she responds

I haven't played too many games outside of newbie queue, but do you think most experienced players getting early wagoned don't already know it's kind of a reaction test?

i question the value in publicly announcing you expect someone's reaction to being voted to be insightful before that person actually reacts

I guess that's sort of a question tho. does announcing it actually limit the effectiveness? Because Lilith is still eventually gonna have to come in here and acknowledge the wagon either way

[Uncrowned]

Which game was that, remind me?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=81510 - Newbie 1971

Skimming briefly through your ISO it turns out you weren't doing it as much as you were just interacting with your buddy like any other slot. You didn't really start doing much "defending" (if you want to call it that) until he was getting wagoned at end of D1.

I guess the difference here is JV is getting wagoned now

[Uncrowned]

I dont think jv's comment is as bad as its being made out to be

this post in particular feels similar to the style you used to back up your buddy in that game, at least tonally.

[Uncrowned]

yeah tbh i'm not much of a "meta" guy because I feel like good players will just change it up anyway but it just came to mind as something that pinged me as similar

[Uncrowned]

the 240 interaction was quite bad, especially considering pp had voted Lilith previously for similar reasons. their entire lillith/uncrowned/lillith jump feels so weird to me, and there's very little actual content in his posts, beyond his shitposts.

I disagree with this. I think more often than not it's representative of a townie changing their mind during an interaction, which I feel like scum would worry about doing.

[Uncrowned]

TGP what do you think about the JV wagon if the Lilith one feels manufactured?

[Uncrowned]

Skit what's your take on Peta?

[Uncrowned]

I still don't know about infinity.

Peta is my strongest TR.

[Uncrowned]

Mostly tone and the interaction with JV came off as extremely townie to me.

[Uncrowned]

I don't think wagon hopping is scum indicative until we have more information. Like I said for Penguin, I think it's more representative of a townies shifting mindset. However, I need to check Hoopla ISO to see if there's any trajectory on the changing votes outside of "wagons"

[Uncrowned]

S_S feels like the voice of reason in this game which to me feels townie but the lack of substantial reads is concerning

Have you developed any outside of saying PP felt towny a while ago?

[Uncrowned]

Infinity read my mind right there

[Uncrowned]

I need more JV in my life

[Uncrowned]

okay so I have a super crazy wild theory that SS and skitter are scum together and the reason that skitter's scumreading me so early is because they know I can read SS really well

What about Skitter do you think has been scummy thus far?

Does her ability to read you also go vice versa (as in she said she's good at reading you)

[Uncrowned]

Yeah, this is opportunistic wagon hopping.

Is it opportunistic if JV is scum?

i mean, yes? it's opportunistic either way because it takes advantage of wagons forming and jumps on them with little to no attempted solving or town motivated reasoning.

But if you're assuming town!lilith and scum!JV then this doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering the wagons were about neck and neck

[Uncrowned]

TGP do you think PP "wagon hopping" earlier in the game is indicative of a townie, fluid mindset or of opportunistic scum? Why?

[Uncrowned]

Nobody asked, but my lilith vote was because she went out of her way to pagetop.

there's nothing wrong with that.

Uhhh, what even is this?

I think it's referencing the first post of Liliths ISO

Or are you talking about the reply

[Uncrowned]

Which read are you referencing?

[Uncrowned]

S_S feels like the voice of reason in this game which to me feels townie but the lack of substantial reads is concerning

What's concerning about it?

Have you developed any outside of saying PP felt towny a while ago?

I... don't know. I want to believe that lilith wouldn't approach me this way as scum, but she's literally played me by doing this exact thing before.

I think TGP is > rand town, because his argument is weird but it seems pretty plausible that he would believe it.

It's concerning because while you're posting well, I feel like that's something good scum players are more capable of doing than developing natural reads.

While it fits your playstyle, it still leaves me paranoid is all.

As for Lilith, how do you think she'd approach this situation if she were scum?

[Uncrowned]

@SS if you're town, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but like, you calling out skitter on her response to JV's townread on her felt over the top

Hmm? His response to that was along the lines of "This is interesting, I wonder what to think. Slightly scummy."

The fact that he called it out at all feels like not-SS to me. It also reminded me of this post:

ngl, the speed is very unnerving.

Honestly, I think the number of people who immediately popped in to express their dislike for the wagon is much more notable.

in which he avoids interacting with the wagon, similarly to how he avoided commenting on the JV wagon here.

S_S said this is a general feature of his playstyle though (in regards to being hesitant with votes), has he done this as town as well?

In a vacuum I would say an unwillingness to get involved in wagons/voting is scummy but if it's a consistency across his play than I don't know how much I can take from it.

[Uncrowned]

I'm beginning to think that one of JV/Hoopla is scum.

[Uncrowned]

Dave's ISO is interesting.

While limited, we see that he targets TGP's arrival in the thread, and seems capable of formulating a well thought out and written response to some of TGP's posting.

However, there has been plenty of content in this game that I feel is just as readable as TGO's entrance into this thread, but he has commented on almost none of it.

Is there a reason you've singled out TGP here while ignoring most of the others slots in the game? Assuming some of the other players theories on town!TGP is correct and he's just making incorrect reads (that are still believable from his perspective) then it would appear as though you're targeting him because of his "suboptimal" (idk how to say this without sounding like a complete dick) posting, while a lot of the other slots in this game (Skitter, S_S, Myself, Infinity, Peta, Penguin) have demonstrated stronger posting, which you've not discussed at all.

[Uncrowned]

I'm beginning to think that one of JV/Hoopla is scum.

Why would that be

You feel a bit less engaged in this game than I'd expect from town!JV but that could also just be how you play now compared to how you used to when we used to play together.

I don't feel like you're addressing as much readable content as I'd expect from you, and Hoopla has been the same in that regard, mostly focused on game theory and set-up discussion rather than going through real-time interactions.

I also think her callout of your 275 is kind of eh. it's not *wrong* but she gives me the vibes of a smart player who would have better reasons to vote people, especially with the way some of the slots have been interacting between one another.

I feel like you're both playing a neutral game, flying under the radar a little. Hoopla's joining of your wagon though makes me believe that if one of you is scum, the other will not be.

[Uncrowned]

@Skit @S_S @Infinity

sorry to be self-indulgent but do you have any thoughts on Post 552

[Uncrowned]

That's fair JV. I don't necessarily mean your activity as a whole, but more what you're actually pulling from this thread to discuss.

[Uncrowned]

Hoopla

Why is JV not in your readings?

I also don't really like your read on me. My activity isn't what should make me town here. This read feels very low effort.

[Uncrowned]

Also @Hoopla

I also somewhat defended your jumping on wagons (along with PPs) but you don't bring this up in my read, but you do for Peta?

This reads list is real concerning to me. He's leaving the door open on everyone that won't be as hard to lynch as myself, Skitter and S_S. Why is me doing the same thing as Peta not considered scummy, outside of activity?

[Uncrowned]

Skitter and JV have also been relatively high posters but don't get mentioned at all in this regard.

This feels like scum lowkey discrediting me by boiling my ISO down to "active posting", not taking a hard stance on me but leaving the door open to putting suspicion on me later down the line.

[Uncrowned]

{Uncrowned}
{Petapan}
{Skitter} {Penguin}
{Something_Smart} {Infinity}

{TGP}
{Pine} {DrippingGoofball}
{JV} {Dunnstrall}

{Lilith}
{Dave}
{Hoopla}

current reads

[Uncrowned]

in honor of penguin

{Uncrowned}

{Petapan}

{Skitter} {Penguin}

{Something_Smart} {Infinity}

{TGP}

{Pine} {DrippingGoofball}

{JV} {Dunnstrall}

{Lilith}

{Dave}

{Hoopla}

[Uncrowned]

I feel like the whole number thing is a weird thing to pin peta on

Plus the choice of number kinda fits how they've been playing this whole game personality wise tbh

Is there something specific that's pinging you about it?

[Uncrowned]

Skitter and JV have also been relatively high posters but don't get mentioned at all in this regard.

This feels like scum lowkey discrediting me by boiling my ISO down to "active posting", not taking a hard stance on me but leaving the door open to putting suspicion on me later down the line.

@Hoopla

You didn't really answer this.

Do you think this is an unfair criticism of your read on me, or do you see where I'm coming from?

[Uncrowned]

Is there a reason you've singled out TGP here while ignoring most of the others slots in the game?

I don't normally comment on stuff I agree with or butt into other people's conversations.

But here's the thing: You haven't really commented on a lot of these interactions either. It's not that you're not getting involved in them, it's that you're taking few stances on them.

Hoopla's joining of your wagon though makes me believe that if one of you is scum, the other will not be.

Nah, never underestimate the power of an early bus. It's basically without risk and can establish anti-associatives if too many people think this way.

This is true.

[Uncrowned]

What do you mean by low signal?

[Uncrowned]

@Hoopla:

davesaz - under-the-radar somewhat. not a crime per se in a game this fast, but given it's (theoretically) easier to stream-of-conscious spam through the pages as town, under-the-radar seems a viable factor to consider in a D1 execution. hasn't done anything outright scummy, but from a POE perspective he is suss given

i have mostly town-leanings.

this doesn't seem to really line up with what you've said about people?

you and to a lesser extent dunnstral were my only scum leanings in that post?

but but you put him as suspicious from a POE perspective, but your townreads did not appear numerous or strong

This is my point. It feels as though the door is being left open on slots to simulate a natural trajectory.

From the reads post, the only townleanings that didn't seem backhanded were Skitter, S_S and Infinity.

[Uncrowned]

I think people's reasons for scumreading hoopla are not the best but I am also getting scumvibes from her.

What about her is scummy to you, then?

And if you can go a bit further, what do you think aren't good reasons for her being scumread?

[Uncrowned]

What is VI lmao

[Uncrowned]

I like the layout of the catchup (might steal that tbh) but it's kind of late for me to be handing out town points for reads that a number of other slots in this game have already come up with originally/authentically.

Not to say that these aren't authentic reads. This is all theory BS coming from me now but like I feel as though it'd be pretty smart to make an entrance like that as scum. Idk

In contrast this makes TGP's entrance feel a lot more townie than it did originally, although I was already on the up about that slot considering Daves targeting of it out of all the content that was available at the time

[Uncrowned]

Yo PP outside of Lilith have you got any other SLs?

[Uncrowned]

nvm just checked your reads list my bad

[Uncrowned]

@Skit @S_S @Infinity

sorry to be self-indulgent but do you have any thoughts on Post 552

I have some scumvibes on dave, yeah
Hes like popping in to comment on the wrong things / on inane things

On an unrelated topic, would you ever consider voting out the top of the draft day1?

saw this while going through your ISO oops

My vote is on Lilith because I'm not satisfied with her posts and she appears scummy but I'll admit I'd prefer a Dave or Hoopla lynch at this point more.

I think Hoopla/Lilith lynches provide more info on townies we can clear

I think my read on Dave might be the most accurate and likely to flip red though if that makes sense

[Uncrowned]

What were your thoughts on the catchup, then?

besides the links lol

[Uncrowned]

That's what also concerns me.

The lack of originality and the reads would be fine if there was some description or thought process behind the "why" things are town or scum

This makes it difficult to judge whether the reads are authentic or not and also provides a "safeguard" of sorts in terms of avoiding being asked specific questions about logic and thinking when coming up with the reads.

[Uncrowned]

I don't think we want to lim lilith today cause she's a PR, time for a hoopla wagon?

It's about time someone had the guts to say this.

But you're still voting TGP?

[Uncrowned]

A lot of people just hopped off of Lilith. From l-1 to l-5

What do you make of this?

[Uncrowned]

HOOPLA STOP SPAMMING OH MY GOD

[Uncrowned]

I do like that vote by you however

But imma do this instead

UNVOTE: Lilith
VOTE: Pine

[Uncrowned]

I'll admit I was voting Lilith more out of info gathering than straight up scum behaviour, although her posting was worse than a lot of the other slots who've been actively contributing imo

I think the way the game sort of stagnated in terms of conflict could be telling wrt Lilith alignment but I'm not sure if that's as much of a tell in these types of games as it is in newbie games

[Uncrowned]

We've still got 3 days so I think the timing is fine to get something out of Pine

[Uncrowned]

She literally looks like jk+++

I can't really speak to that game because I wasn't trying to read her there. But she also doesn't look that far off from Mini 2160.

Uhhhhhh what similarities do you see?
She has like 1000 posts there and i took a look at the first like 12, enough to verify that it looks transparently differnet to this game, and quite similar to classic!town!lilith

Ngl it's slightly alarming that you think the above

As I was going back through these, this is exactly what I was thinking.

Idk if this is just a feature of your playstyle S_S but the fact you aren't taking stances on these slots which are behaving in a way which I would say is pretty polarizing is weird to say the least

[Uncrowned]

I should clarify though that I haven't read those same games, but more the concept that Lilith isn't either town or scum here

There seems to be a lot of "this could reasonably come from a town perspective" which is something we were frowning upon when Infinity was doing it earlier. The same should apply here.

We shouldn't have to perform yoga stretches to determine if something could come from a town perspective. I understand things can be NAI but this feels quite fence-sitty

[Uncrowned]

I mean, I'm pushing back, but not because I'm suspicious of your motivations. I don't think you're scum unless lilith is.

This is a weird take, and not one I think I can agree with. You could make the argument about it being a smart distancing strategy in the hopes people "talk her out of it" but Skitter has seemed adamant on following it up, and I'm not sure she maintains it so heavily after the last few days of game-time along with other stuff like mentioning the lack of wagon resistance if she's scum.

Plus, I think it'll be hard to pull off a reversal of her read naturally without being suspected for it at least a little, which adds to my doubts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: hoopla

back to this I guess

Not sure I like this? Yeah it fits your reads but it feels like a "default" sort of move rather than a proactive town move

[Uncrowned]

The whole thing about not voting out players high in the draft is getting a little tedious.

Draft order alone isn't enough of a towncase for a player to make me not want to lynch them.

[Uncrowned]

The thing about that is that you said in when you unvoted that Lilith was still a target for you.

Since you're being TR by many in the game, with you saying that, I think the chances scum jump off the wagon that quick are less likely, considering a Lilith lynch still looks like it's still potentially on the cards.

I worded this in a dumb way but it's late and I don't know how to make it better LOL

[Uncrowned]

Lilith I was sheeping though (although her posts definitely had a scummy element to them imo) but I still think Daves or even DGB (Peta's analysis of the catchup was v convincing) are more likely to be scum, I guess?

I say that because I feel like Lilith has had this sort of pressure put on her that could make even townies struggle to post well under scrutiny, whereas the latter two haven't had much pressure on them this game but have still displayed scummy behaviors. Unless your experience with town!lilith suggests she deals with that type of pressure really well?

I'm coming around to the possibility that Hoopla isn't scum considering we seem to share similar opinions on Dave/DGB and her commentary on the wagon was a conclusion I believe town would naturally come to

[Uncrowned]

The thing about that is that you said in when you unvoted that Lilith was still a target for you.

Since you're being TR by many in the game, with you saying that, I think the chances scum jump off the wagon that quick are less likely, considering a Lilith lynch still looks like it's still potentially on the cards.

I worded this in a dumb way but it's late and I don't know how to make it better LOL

So the people still on wagon are the way to go then! Looks like my dbg vote was a good one lol

that's assuming my logic makes sense which I *think* it does

Like theoretically yeah people could see you jump off (and you're the strongest influence on that wagon) and be like "ok let's test the waters elsewhere" BUT as you said i'm TRing most of those who got off it and I think you left the door open enough on her still being a lynch candidate for scum to feel comfortable staying put

[Uncrowned]

Well yes but people aren't making that argument, they're just outright refusing or being adamant about not lynching those slots when I'd rather just take the risk if my instincts tell me that persons scum, you get me?

[Uncrowned]

There seems to be a lot of "this could reasonably come from a town perspective" which is something we were frowning upon when Infinity was doing it earlier.

Can you link where this happened with Infinity? (Not that I doubt it did, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same event.)

will look for this now

[Uncrowned]

There were a bunch of posts where I was like “ok, I don’t agree that this post makes someone more towny/scummy, but I see how someone could think that”.

I mean how much does that really count for? If you can see town-DGB thinking something, surely scum-DGB can see town-DGB thinking it?

In fact I think "these thoughts sound like things a townie could reasonably believe" is pretty much what scum shoot for in making fake reads.

I believe this is what I was referencing

[Uncrowned]

I actually wasn't aware you were the one that said it tbh I thought Penguin did but yeah

[Uncrowned]

NOOO don't stress! I still love playing with you

hope everything is okay. just chill and play whenever you want to, not because you feel like you have to <3

[Uncrowned]

As I was going back through these, this is exactly what I was thinking.

Idk if this is just a feature of your playstyle S_S but the fact you aren't taking stances on these slots which are behaving in a way which I would say is pretty polarizing is weird to say the least

...I don't think that's what skitter was getting at there. I thought she was saying that I might have been scum intentionally drawing a faulty comparison to protect lilith. (Which isn't something I would do; I wouldn't lie about something that easily verifiable.)

Just because slots are polarizing doesn't mean I have to be polarized, if you get my drift? And I think slowness to form reads is a virtue because it keeps me from jumping to conclusions and becoming confbiased; but regardless, it's a playstyle trait, not an alignment-indicative one.

I looked back at this quote and realized my point is entirely unrelated lmao you are correct I think that's what she was getting at too

As for your second point... sure, I guess, if you feel like you're a person susceptible to confirmation bias but to me it just seems a bit tooooooo uncertain

Like I took a pretty hard stance on Hoopla not long ago at all and I'm already starting to back off it a bit. I don't think it's wrong to take stances on things. I've probably beaten this idea to death already but im a pretty big believer in townies having ever-changing mindsets and I think that's something a lot of scum are afraid to replicate because it'll lead to them having to explain and that's when mistakes are made

[Uncrowned]

but you have to </3

WE WERENT SUPPOSED TO TELL THEM THAT PENGUIN GODDAMNIT

[Uncrowned]

I believe this is what I was referencing

I think you might have misunderstood 745? I wasn't calling out Infinity, I was just saying I disagreed with his read.

well yeah but you making similar points when you disagreed with someone else for it is contradictory, no?

[Uncrowned]

Though, there is a difference between what he did and what I did-- he tried to say that DGB was towny because he could imagine her posts as coming from town, whereas I was just saying that lilith isn't scummy because I can imagine her posts as coming from town.

This feels like some mental gymnastics tbh

They're too similar to treat them as entirely different things

"imagining" or "thinking" something can come from a townie alignment is both what you both said in regards to the respective slots. Yes there's a difference between town and "not scummy" but in this situation you're both making a read

Even regarding what I said about you not taking stances, at the end of the day not taking a stance IS taking a stance, so claiming something is not scummy is still making the "read" that it is supposedly NAI, you are making a decision based off of you "imagining" it could come from town

[Uncrowned]

and the fact that you're debating this as though they're two entirely separate things (when i really don't think they are) is kinda off imo

[Uncrowned]

Here's the problem

We're playing a game where almost everything scum does will be an attempt to look town or as though they're coming from a town perspective

You CANT chalk up everything as NAI because it COULD HAVE come from a town perspective, which is what you've done for most of this game since I dont recall you having many reads

You can't discredit someone else's read and then expect yours to hold up when you're using the same point.

If we keep playing around the whole "could come from town" notion then we will get nowhere. It's meant to be a combination of if something is LIKELY to come from town combined with the rest of their play, which means reads, trajectories, voting analysis, the pushes they make and other things of that nature that you want to add in there.

From my POV it looks like you're taking everything and viewing it in a vacuum which yes, can work but if you do it too often you're going to miss out on the big picture

Some of liliths posting is inherently scummy and no amount of "oh but it could come from town" is going to make me think it's NAI

[Uncrowned]

Yes there's a difference between town and "not scummy" but in this situation you're both making a read

I'm not making a read. I'm doing the exact opposite of that.

"Not making a read" on a post is essentially making a read. You're "reading" it as neutral.

Everything you see from other players that you file away as "townie" "neutral" or "scummy" all add up into your eventual read on that player

[Uncrowned]

Obviously PRs VTs and scum can classify separately but in this game lots of people have roles and we know draft order, so we know who is gonna have those roles.

[Uncrowned]

It's the same thing Uncrowned didn't like about one of my posts. Logical people tend to be much more precise than non-logical, and it bothers the non-logicals.

Which post was this?

[Uncrowned]

May I ask what your townleans are then at least?

[Uncrowned]

"Not making a read" on a post is essentially making a read. You're "reading" it as neutral.

Sounds like a difference of terminology to me, but this also doesn't make much sense. Does that mean I'm constantly making neutral reads on everyone who I'm not currently talking about?

I don't get how the last part is relevant and I also feel like this convo might be better suited for out of the game. Dont think it'll help town much at all atm.

Not a knock on your play btw it's just a difference in opinion

[Uncrowned]

it's mostly the incongruence of skitter defending a slot I think is VERY scummy whenever anyone has raised that when I would expect her to be calling the things out that I'm seeing and not defusing pressure there

Do you think this is just a feature of her playstyle or something she actively does as scum? This is the same kind of thing I brought up about her when JV was under suspicion.

Also hi!

[Uncrowned]

it's mostly the incongruence of skitter defending a slot I think is VERY scummy whenever anyone has raised that when I would expect her to be calling the things out that I'm seeing and not defusing pressure there

Do you think this is just a feature of her playstyle or something she actively does as scum? This is the same kind of thing I brought up about her when JV was under suspicion.

Also hi!

Ehhhh I think if skitt!town which is how I’m playing it atm, she sometimes sees things in people that I don’t and gets to TRs where I can’t

Equally, I have sometimes trusted her a little bit too much > trusting my own reads, so I’m trying to find a balance

I’m not sure that she white knights VTs or defends buddies as a tule and think it’s very much situational. I think both scum and town skitt will defuse wagons on buddies or on townies depending on if she thinks it will benefit her in the long run, but I don’t have enough handle on the gamestate yet to say if I could see that happening here, and I also don’t really scumresd her

Hi back! It’s been a while! I think you’re very town, how do you feel about that?

That makes sense, I think I've said this but her and S_S *seem* to be playing from very reasonable perspectives that I think come from town more often than not. From my brief knowledge of Skit I doubt I'd be able to read her accurately anyway until more info had come out?

I've only skimmed your posting and want to give it a more thorough read when I'm done with this assignment lol

As for your read, I don't know. I feel like it's an easy read to make given the state of everyone's reads and the fact that I think for anyone who has brief game experience with me, they'll know I've pretty much townspewed this game lmao

Also ngl I feel like some of the stuff you've accused Infinity of could be said for me as well. I've asked a bunch of questions that sometimes don't seem like they're going anywhere, but like what Infinity said, it's how I also gather info and come to conclusions. I find it a bit interesting at least that you haven't called me out for the same thing, unless you think my play has just been that townie?

[Uncrowned]

@Skit your read on Dave gives me a lot more confidence in my own of him since I've thought much of the same

plus maybe I'm a lil peeved at being called a non-logical LMAO

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: Davesaz

[Uncrowned]

Skit where are you at on preferring a DGB vs. Lilith lynch atm?

[Uncrowned]

R u trying to say that only scum townreads you?

You're reading the phrase 'solve himself' rather differently than how i meant for it to be read, which is kinda adding to my confusion

Either way that's probably town so back yo dgb we go
VOTE: dgb

uhh, can you explain?

his posting there felt pretty stock standard in terms of the point being made

[Uncrowned]

I kind of forgot Dunn existed in this game tbh

Just scanning over the ISO, I do see a lot of shading on "wagons" and generalisations that don't seem like actual scum hunting

[Uncrowned]

UNVOTE: Dave

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Uncrowned]

The posts have been surface level questions and assessments without much elaboration or actual pushes, imo.

[Uncrowned]

Yeah, but when Dunn has popped in there has been a lot of content that should formulate at least some stronger opinions.

[Uncrowned]

Also I wouldn't take caring about peoples perception of you at scum as a non scum tell. I think that's more of a personality tell than anything

It's like how arguing someone is "too defensive" is a scum tell when in reality they may just be the type of person that gets that way when they're accused, whether it's right OR wrong

[Uncrowned]

Reasonable maybe isn't the best way to put it. More so it doesn't feel like they're twisting narratives or content to suit their point, which I believe is more likely to come from scum.

And I'm not calling you out more than I'm just curious about why you pointed it out for Infinity and not myself,, because it could be that I just think our questioning is more similar than it actually is? I try to be open minded to that sorta thing

Also curious why my general play is scummy but that can wait to after the game if you'd prefer not to clog the game with that discussion

[Uncrowned]

But yeah I also think I have a general aversion to being buddied (even though it hasn't happened yet) so I tend to ask for explanations on stuff like that

[Uncrowned]

So I kind of think that DGB and Dunn are interchangeable in terms of lynch since they've exhibited similar behaviours in my eyes

I do think DGB is the slightly worse lynch of the two but will change vote to that if deadline nears and we have no movement on either of them

[Uncrowned]

This is L-2

DGB are your scumreads still similar to what you expressed in your catch up post?

Whether they are or not, do you maybe have the time to elaborate a bit more on at least one or two of them? Even if it's just a general descriptor of how you think they've been playing

If you feel it's futile and not worth your time than I understand but I think it could be helpful

[Uncrowned]

Ok we're good with the unvote

[Uncrowned]

Skitter want to vote Dunn?

[Uncrowned]

I feel like there hasn't been a lot of resistance on multiple of the wagons that have occurred in game: JV, Lilith, DGB, even myself if you want to count the early one on me (2 voters were RVS I think so don't think I'd count it)

I think PP might have been a small/medium sized wagon at one point as well?

It's either passive Mafia or we really are just going after all the townies. I'd be a bit surprised if one of those 3 (5 if PP and I are included) aren't scum

Who is unsure about Dunn? I feel like only Peta has really voiced much about them, and I have a little bit but not all that much.

[Uncrowned]

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't know if we can use game state as a tell if it's consistently happening with virtually every wagon we've had?

[Uncrowned]

JV had a little bit of resistance from yourself and then everyone sort of just naturally hopped off from the looks of things (I recall Hoopla specifically seeming to have a relatively normal looking exit from that wagon)

Lilith only really had S_S being a bit uncertain of the wagon

DGB does seem to be the one that has gone the least opposed outside of maybe when Mean came in casing Infinity. but even he seems off of that atm

[Uncrowned]

@Infinity

Earlier, you gave a towncasing of sorts for Dave, saying that his lack of care for how he appeared to other people was why he seemed townie to you.

Contrast that with your play, where you seemed like you felt the need to prove yourself after Mena said you weren't as actively engaged in this game as the other one where you helped find scum.

As I said, I don't really think "not caring" about other people's reads is a towntell, but you seem to. So on the flipside, does caring about people scumreading or not liking your play come off as a scumtell to you?

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

[Uncrowned]

Your last few posts were gross.

[Uncrowned]

@Mena

Why did you end up backing off of your Infinity read? Do you still hold faith in that? It looks weird that you'd sus him and then end up voting right after him on the same person.

[Uncrowned]

Shit JV that's terrible. Hope things turn out ok. Don't worry about the game that should be the least of your concerns

[Uncrowned]

Echoing all the above sentiments, hope everything's all right.

Dave's EOD yesterday looks fairly towny.

How so?

[Uncrowned]

Fwiw I also think that there are 2 scum on wagon and so far im leaning THP/Mena

Daves also seemed a bit too content to sit on wagon end of D1 but im less confident on that

[Uncrowned]

That sort of stuff is easily fakeable imo if anything it seems a bit overexplainy lol

Notice how skit, infinity, peta all on the same page were real brief about reacting to the self hammer? That seems more natural to me

[Uncrowned]

And TGP ^ I should add

[Uncrowned]

Like out of all the posting on that page reacting to self hammer Daves looks... <_< >_> ... the... the worst

Badump tsss

[Uncrowned]

Do you have any thoughts on the wagon?

[Uncrowned]

Also a reminder

JV and Lilith were also wagoned D1 and didn't receive much, if any, resistance. Similar to DGB.

Content wise neither have appeared all that town to me but, based off of this information, it would point towards them both being town.

[Uncrowned]

@Mena

Both you and TGP were both "set" on Infinity and then dropped that idea for a wagon that neither of you seemed invested in at all. in fact, TGP even went as far as to say that they're "not on board with eliminating her (DGB) under any circumstances" on D1 and that they "doesn't buy the wagon" but yet decided to drop that whole mentality because she... made a claim? A claim that wasn't countered? A claim that would've been real dumb to fake considering the setup?

It just makes no sense to me.

You also behaved similarly

[Uncrowned]

Also Mena you not engaging with Infinity after he replied to your push on him and then changing wagons looks pretty bad to me

[Uncrowned]

You also said you'd compromise on DGB "if we ran out of time" but as far as I'm concerned we could've gotten more out of the day. It's not like you were forced to change that vote due to time pressure.

[Uncrowned]

Does less wagons mean less likely to be scum? Just going off your coloring. That feels inaccurate to me.

And I don't know Mena, I just know from that game we played together that you have the capability of being a super strong town voice, and I feel like if you actually believed in that Infinity read, you would've drove it home rather than compromising for DGB who you had spoke less about outside of vague "yeah, I'd vote her" things.

[Uncrowned]

DO NOT HAMMER

[Uncrowned]

I'll take your word for it Mena. Unless I decide to go check your old games but I'm not really one for doing that tbh

But I just feel like you wouldn't drop off of Infinity that easily

Could you maybe explain your thought process on why you went from Dunn to DGB at least?

[Uncrowned]

Mena I know you've cased him but I need a bit more on Infinity. You say he's not scumhunting, which I can see to a degree... but he has taken a few stances on TGP, Daves and Hoopla.

There are other slots that I think have taken similar approaches to the game? Like you have S_S as a strong TR (which I agree with) but just judging by his gameplay, do you not think that he too hasn't really done all that much scumhunting? Which is something he has admitted to.

[Uncrowned]

Could you maybe explain your thought process on why you went from Dunn to DGB at least?

rly rly easy -- I played against dunn in this setup on an alt earlier this year and he lurked incredibly hard and I thought he was scummy but he was actually a cop

so I decided to not push him too hard in case he was a good PR again who might have useful info in the night

This is fair. I didn't think THAT vote change in particular was suspicious but I was curious about it.

[Uncrowned]

Oh yeah of course it doesn't mean he is scum hunting but he did put some effort into casing Hoopla at least

[Uncrowned]

Like there's definitely an element of "less" active scumhunting than a lot of other slots but I'm not sure if it's scum indicative to that extent?

Also can you give me your thoughts on TGP? Do you not think their play EOD was a bit off?

[Uncrowned]

Do we think it's more likely that scum got blocked or that doctor saved someone?

If Mena is scum I feel like that could be rather telling on who makes up the scumteam if they decided he was the safest option to make the NK.

[Uncrowned]

Something feels a little off about this ^

I dont like it either but what's your reasoning?

[Uncrowned]

Mena is at L-1 can someone unvote.

[Uncrowned]

Mena why do you think you were targeted for NK?

[Uncrowned]

I'm really struggling to see two things here, both conflicting.

In what scum-team does Mena perform the NK?

And what scum-team tries to NK Mena here?

[Uncrowned]

Mena/JV definitely looked S/S for a while there, the nonsense arguments when mena probably gets limmed today. Interesting move for mena to start TRing jackson though.

That did not look like scum theatre to me at all.

[Uncrowned]

I do think that if you were to flip green Mena, the team probably would have Infinity/Skitter in it. I've been trying to give credence to your Infinity read and I do think it could be more accurate than I first thought. Upon my first couple readings of it I did think it was a bit of a reach, but given the way other slots have been playing he doesn't look as good as I remember him.

Also FWIW on JV... from what I can remember they're kind of playing the way I remember them as town in terms of like... core values, I guess? The whole "I can't be bothered" thing actually is something I am inclined to believe is something they'd say as town.

[Uncrowned]

If you flip red, I'm thinking the other two are between Dave/TGP/Dunn.

[Uncrowned]

so I wouldn't be 'trying' to anti-spew as scum rn

I would be successfully anti-spewing or successfully setting up people who aren't my partners

Dude, why are you twisting my words you know what I meant and you saying that makes me more confident that's what you're trying to do if you are scum here.

unless they are putting on an incredible performance right now this looks like it's straight out of the Town!JV handbook... although I probably need to read a Scum!JV before I make that judgement lmao

[Uncrowned]

Mena/JV definitely looked S/S for a while there, the nonsense arguments when mena probably gets limmed today. Interesting move for mena to start TRing jackson though.

Ok I'm coming back to this because I really don't like it

Why do you think this?

[Uncrowned]

Do you put in as much effort when you're scum?

[Uncrowned]

I mean I don't think we can really blame JV for missing stuff given the circumstances. I think I'd be missing a bunch of shit too if I had the last couple of days they've had

[Uncrowned]

I just have a real icky feeling about TGP in general tbh

The whole part where they default to Hoopla and then gets on a wagon once one has picked up looks like an attempt to show active voting/hunting although Hoopla hasn't been at the forefront of the game in what feels like forever at this point, like probably 40 pages ago or more?

But then when we have these crucial moments (DGB and Mena now, I'd say) they have almost nothing to say other than getting on the wagon?

[Uncrowned]

I'm not sure TGP/Infinity would be together judging by TGP's posting about how everyone should get off the DGB wagon and go after Infinity on D1.

But then again... they ended up going back on that decision almost immediately which is why I'm sussing them in the first place so it could be a possibility.

[Uncrowned]

JV I'm pretty sure I told you this but... I actually kind of agreed with Peta when he said you were commenting on relatively trivial stuff tbh

As for your logic on Lilith? I think it's fine barring some unusual circumstances which is starting to make me curious about the selection of informed over multitasking now

[Uncrowned]

Mena rest assured if you get green flipped I am tunneling Infinity

Honestly though TGP is my main target rn

[Uncrowned]

yeah that's the thing I don't think scum JV would be trying to make mistakes like that at all

[Uncrowned]

hey peta want to join the TGP wagon?