Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Game Over!

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Smoke and Mirrors replaces lilith2013.

Please keep out-of-game conflicts out of the game.

Sorry.

vote count 4.10

Menalque (2):

Not_Mafia, davesaz

Smoke and Mirrors (1):

Menalque

petapan (1):

Infinity 324

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Best Bird, Smoke and Mirrors, petapan, Hoopla

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-26 17:00:00)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- quack

@mod, any chance of us getting an extension so we have time to read up on the game?. I’m not sure 2 1/2 days is enough time.

~Mirrors

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Please keep out-of-game conflicts out of the game.

well too bad ducky, cause I have things to say about the July 2020 Armenian-Azerbaijani clashes in Movies and Agdam respectively

[Smoke and Mirrors]

do I need to find examples of skitter being accurate or examples of me putting a high weight on skitter's opinions when she's been townflipped? cause I'm p sure I can do both

Yeah I noticed you voting for us but Skitter’s very wrong if she’s scumreading our slot and I would really like if you’d give us a chance to first get caught up in the game to prove you wrong.

~M

[Smoke and Mirrors]

hey Nancy, quick Q, what shade of red was the role PM you just received?

It’s obviously green. I don’t really appreciate you trying to shade us here.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

do I need to find examples of skitter being accurate or examples of me putting a high weight on skitter's opinions when she's been townflipped? cause I'm p sure I can do both

Yeah I noticed you voting for us but Skitter’s very wrong if she’s scumreading our slot and I would really like if you’d give us a chance to first get caught up in the game to prove you wrong.

~M

I mean I would prefer that we just execute you and go from there but I guess

Well I would prefer you don’t misexecute us.

Are you even going to give us a chance to show you why you’re wrong here?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

It’s kind of pissing me off that I haven’t even read anything yet and Mena is already hellbent on killing us. Let us at least get caught up first ffs!

[Smoke and Mirrors]

It’s kind of pissing me off that I haven’t even read anything yet and Mena is already hellbent on killing us. Let us at least get caught up first ffs!

the alignment of your slot hasn't changed just bc you repped into it

You’re damned right about that. Good, something we agree on then.

I want to solve this game but if you are just going to pretty much just continue to call me scum. I obviously can’t do that.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I'll see what you do

I have a heavy pre-disposition to viewing you as scum tho, and that whatever you're doing is playing to a scum wincon and I think have valid reasons to treat you that way

idk, I think you and pooky are both competent as scum, so I don't think you'll be able to project town sufficiently to get me to TR you but we'll see I suppose

Well help me out then, because unless duckling grants us an extension, I don’t know how much help I’ll be. So if you could perhaps give me a rundown of what’s been happening in this game, that would be swell.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

do I need to find examples of skitter being accurate or examples of me putting a high weight on skitter's opinions when she's been townflipped? cause I'm p sure I can do both

Yeah I noticed you voting for us but Skitter’s very wrong if she’s scumreading our slot and I would really like if you’d give us a chance to first get caught up in the game to prove you wrong.

~M

I mean I would prefer that we just execute you and go from there but I guess

Well I would prefer you don’t misexecute us.

Are you even going to give us a chance to show you why you’re wrong here?

you'll be encouraged to hear that I do not have a lot of ~*play*~ in the game rn

but literally nothing you do makes lili less scummy for the time that she was here in your slot, and nothing you do changes that skitter is generally very good at reading lili, and nothing changes the fact that skitter was saying very loudly right before she died that lili was scum

Well I know for a fact that she’s wrong in this case, so you can continue to wrongly confibias on us or find out she was wrong. Your choice.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Spoiler:

roughly:

initial wagons were lili and uncrowned. lili was still the dominant wagon when I repped in towards the end of D1 I think, but it might have already been changing towards DGB by that point. I entered hard pushing infinity and got some traction on that, then he started doing things and I (maybe foolishy) decided he'd be easier to read on later days than super-inactive DGB, so I switched there and that put it over the threshold of support it needed and she got flipped. worth noting that like 5 slots who voted her (incl mine) are all still alive today lol

then there was no kill on N1, skitt started D2 pushing me and that picked up traction quickly, and that traction was strengthened when lili claimed a JK on me and a lot of people started talking about it being a guilty because "lol who'd kill mena N1?" then I started being very town and the wagon dissipated, and we were working on a theory of there being a doc as well who'd made a save on someone else the same night that I was JK'd. uncrowned was very obvtown and wanted TGP, who didn't seem very town and so a bunch of us voted him. before he died, he said he'd gone for cop but he flipped VT. this will be important later.

that night uncrowned gets killed, TGP and uncrowned were both shouting for dunn to die when they did, and he'd also done very little so I pushed him hard and consistently throughout D3. skitter argues we should do you instead, but people aren't that interested. dunn gets flipped, comes out VT, and he confirms that your slot is JK because he asked for tracker and flipped as VT. skitter gets murderised during the night, brings us to today. I've been mostly pushing you, but we also have a fucky thing going on with claims where there's confirmed scum in (me, NM, infinity, Dave, peta, S_S) because one of them has to have the cop/redirector slot but nobody is claiming it. as we've done massclaim, the person who has it is claiming scum.

of that pool, NM is claiming neighbouriser (confirmed to be in the game bc dunn said he'd been neighboured on N2) which I think is not clearing but which hoopla thinks is bc scum have never chosen neighbouriser as a role before. then Dave is claiming 1s watcher, and peta is claiming VT who went for the 1s watcher but got VT, so he's saying that the redirector has to be in (me, S_S, infinity). this is troublesome because Dave has an incredibly bad iso (especially today where he's done almost nothing but keeps insisting I'm scum) and peta doesn't/sort of feels town but is now very much tied to Dave (although is saying that he doesn't think the 1s watcher is clearing for Dave, just that he wants to go for the redirector instead bc... ??). infinity seemed a lot like scum to me on D1, but now seems towny, and I did a gambit where I fake claimed cop and thought his and hoopla's reactions were good. S_S is scummy but skitter had him as strong town which is making me not want to flip him.

basically, hoopla, me, infinity, peta have all been playing the game quite hard

S_S and Dave have each done a bit

Best Bird (the penguin) and N_M (predictably) and your slot have all done basically nothing but can't be all the scum unless there's something weird happening where NM is the redirector fake claiming neighbouriser, and Best Bird is the real neighbouriser, and your "block" on NM last night was to disguise this fact

Thanks this is extremely helpful. Yes can confirm jk.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I'll see what you do

I have a heavy pre-disposition to viewing you as scum tho, and that whatever you're doing is playing to a scum wincon and I think have valid reasons to treat you that way

idk, I think you and pooky are both competent as scum, so I don't think you'll be able to project town sufficiently to get me to TR you but we'll see I suppose

Well help me out then, because unless duckling grants us an extension, I don’t know how much help I’ll be. So if you could perhaps give me a rundown of what’s been happening in this game, that would be swell.

who did lilith target each night?

I don’t know. Duckling only sent me our role pm.

@mod, can you please send us all of Lillith’s NAs? Thanks.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I'll see what you do

I have a heavy pre-disposition to viewing you as scum tho, and that whatever you're doing is playing to a scum wincon and I think have valid reasons to treat you that way

idk, I think you and pooky are both competent as scum, so I don't think you'll be able to project town sufficiently to get me to TR you but we'll see I suppose

MENA MENA MENA MENA

[Smoke and Mirrors]

are we on the same side this time peta?

what is going on in this game :3

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I will ask ducky for what Lili has been up to.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

oh wow, guess I don’t get exclamation marks or a heart then :sadmena:

YOU WERE LITERALLY THE FIRST PERSON I SAID HI TOOO!!!


ok got my night actions

n1:
Mena <3

n2:
Infinity

n3:
Not Mafia

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Mena can you pls give me a 5 min cliffnotes on the game thx :3

[Smoke and Mirrors]

nancy was supposed to have asked for the actions i dunno where the holdup is

but in the meantime, a list of the claims:

lilith - jailkeeper
davesaz - 1-shot watcher
something_smart - vt, went for rolecop
infinity 324 - vt, went for night 3 vig
petapan - vt, went for 1-shot watcher
pine/menalque - vt, went for jk
jacksonvirgo/not_mafia - neighborizer
penguinpower - vt, went for fruit vendor
hoopla - vt, went for cop

TGP also said he went for cop, meaning that since there is no cop claim, it's likely that there is a mafia redirector in {me, smart, infinity, menalque}. that is the current main quandary from my point of view. i'm not having an easy time reading those 3 players and i feel like the game hinges on who is mafia among them

Duckling lives in Australia duh.

The role pairs

:
Only ONE ROLE PER PAIR can exist in the game.

Night 3 Vigilante	OR	Vengeful
1-shot Vigilante	OR	1-shot PGO (active)
Cop	OR	1-shot Redirector
1-shot Commuter	OR	1-shot Watcher
Doctor	OR	Roleblocker
Universal Backup	OR	Role Cop
Neighborizer	OR	Fruit Vendor
Jailkeeper	OR	Tracker

[/area][/quote]

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I think those are fairly reasonable actions from a mechanics point of view.

Here are more complete notes on the picks. It makes sense to me, hopefully it makes sense to you.

lilith2013 2 claim JK (Menalque, Infinity, Not_Mafia)
Dunnstral 3 VT tried to get JK
skitter30 6 UB(Inherited PGO)
davesaz 8 watcher
Something_Smart 9 VT, claims went for rolecop
Uncrowned 14 town vengeful / n3 vig
Infinity 324 23, VT, claims went for n3 vig
petapan 1000000 VT, tried to get watcher
DrippingGoofball 5 town PGO / 1 shot vig (1st elim -> backup)
Pine->mena 5 VT, claims went for JK
JacksonVirgo->not_mafia 4 neighborizer, no counter
TheGoldenParadox 4 VT tried to get cop
PenguinPower 4 VT, tried to get FV
Hoopla 4 tried to get cop

Working assumption is that the no-kill N1 was due to lilith JKing Mena. I think it is most likely that Mena was blocked attempting the kill.
1. We know that town attempted to get cop late in the list and didn't.
2. If there were a town cop earlier in the list, it would be 100% better to have claimed along with any results. Therefore mafia got the role pair.
3. It appears from the information that we have, that NOBODY tried to get doctor / roleblocker -- or mafia ALSO has that role. They are informed either way.
4. Given mafia has the cop role pair, and knows there is no doctor (or they have the roleblocker), the next highest priority for a NK is another investigative (watcher / tracker). Choosing to kill the 10th player in the list when they can get either a PR or information earlier in the list makes it

very unlikely

that Mena was the kill target.
5. Someone will argue, "but good player" -- I don't care about that. In a (near) role madness game, you always follow the mechanics first!

I very much want to SR Something_Smart for not going full bore on the above logic. Hoopla too, to a somewhat lesser extent only because I don't know who she is really having only been in a couple games with her. I don't know the source of the meme and have never bothered to ask to be filled in on the back story.

Can someone please summarize all of this for me?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

also, welcome to the game smoke & mirrors!

looking forward to doing business with you.

Thanks, I wanted to play this from the beginning not start on D4.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

also, welcome to the game smoke & mirrors!

looking forward to doing business with you.

Thanks, I wanted to play this from the beginning not start on D4.

i agree that the draft is the fun part and everything after is pain but we kinda need you to get up to speed fast because this is a critical day and there is not much time left

I’m trying my best. If there are specific things you’d like me to look at, I think that would be way more productive. I can’t read this entire game in 2 days.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

{petapan, menalque, infinity 324, something_smart}

one of these 4 people has to be scum, because it is confirmed the cop role was taken and no one has claimed it. your slot jailed menalque night 1 and there was no kill. read those 4 people and pick one to vote today.

Okay, I guess that narrows it down a bit.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

vote count 1.32

DrippingGoofball (8)

: lilith2013, davesaz, Infinity 324, Menalque, PenguinPower, petapan, TheGoldenParadox, DrippingGoofball

petapan (1)

: JacksonVirgo

Dunnstral (1)

: Uncrowned

davesaz (1)

: Hoopla

Hoopla (1)

: Dunnstral

Not voting

: Something_Smart, skitter30

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-03 02:30:00)

With 14 alive it takes 8 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- EOD activity check: all shiny.
- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays.
- quack

vote count 2.20

TheGoldenParadox (7)

: Uncrowned, Best Bird, skitter30, Menalque, lilith2013, davesaz, Dunnstral

Dunnstral (4)

: Hoopla, Infinity 324, petapan, TheGoldenParadox

petapan (1)

: JacksonVirgo

Not voting

: Something_Smart

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-13 13:00:00)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la fridays & saturdays
- quack

[Smoke and Mirrors]

vote count 3.07

Dunnstral (6)

: Hoopla, petapan, skitter30, Infinity 324, Something_Smart, Menalque

Hoopla (2)

: davesaz, Dunnstral

Not_Mafia (1)

: Not_Mafia

Not voting

: Best Bird, lilith2013, Not_Mafia

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-19 09:30:00)

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la fridays & saturdays
- quack

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Need to read some ISOs but Mena has been on every town wagon.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

vote count 4.11

Menalque (2):

Not_Mafia, davesaz

Smoke and Mirrors (1):

Menalque

petapan (1):

Infinity 324

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Best Bird, Smoke and Mirrors, petapan, Hoopla

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-26 17:00:00)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- quack

@Mena why are you voting us instead of one of Peta, Infinity, SS?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

{petapan, menalque, infinity 324, something_smart}

one of these 4 people has to be scum, because it is confirmed the cop role was taken and no one has claimed it.

your slot jailed menalque night 1 and there was no kill. read those 4 people and pick one to vote today.

@Mena, why are you completely ignoring this?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

because he is insisent your slot could be scum because lilith wasn't very active, despite there being no other explanation for the lack of a kill, other than mafia not submitting an action.

But that doesn’t even make sense because she did submit her jk actions on all 3 days.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

because he is insisent your slot could be scum because lilith wasn't very active, despite there being no other explanation for the lack of a kill, other than mafia not submitting an action.

I don't think this was the reason? Skitter basically sold mena on lilith being scum, and mena got more confident when skitter died is my impression.

And he isn’t even considering the possibility of a Lillith frame based on that? Why?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Idk. I’m not sure why mena is so confident in your slot being scum. I agreed with skitter that lilith was super scummy on play but I thought a doc save was what happened n1. With no doc in the game that means it’s a lot less likely you’re scum.

I really don’t why Skitter thought that but Mena basing his push off of that is bad. In Coalition RC claimed to have a perfect BoP on reading Alchemist and insisted he was scum. Well he flipped town in that. So I don’t like the fact that he is so confibiased on our slot when A) She’s not one of the questionable cop slots and B) no doc.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Idk. I’m not sure why mena is so confident in your slot being scum. I agreed with skitter that lilith was super scummy on play but I thought a doc save was what happened n1. With no doc in the game that means it’s a lot less likely you’re scum.

I really don’t why Skitter thought that but Mena basing his push off of that is bad. In Coalition RC claimed to have a perfect BoP on reading Alchemist and insisted he was scum. Well he flipped town in that. So I don’t like the fact that he is so confibiased on our slot when A) She’s not one of the questionable cop slots and B) no doc.

@Mena, please respond to this. Thanks.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

We’re here. @Mena why are you in such a rush? I was leaning Mena because it looked like he was trying to avoid voting amongst Peta, SS, Infinity but now that he has, I’m less sure.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

@Mena why are you in such a rush?

Deadline: 1 day, 7 hours, 45 minutes

probably that is why

No but he wants it decided now, when we have over 24 hrs. I will make my decision closer to deadline.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I’d like you to post more at least so I can see where your heads are at. Also can y’all sign your posts please?

This is Nancy and I’m still reading and I’m having difficulty getting hold of Pooky, which isn’t helping. :/

The same thing happened in Dung Beetle as well.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Hi Mena

is there any chance you would post 800 times as scum?

just say no.

~Pooky

[Smoke and Mirrors]

oh no Mena suspected Lili?

how could you after that beautiful romance you two had!?

Meeeeeeennnnnnnnnaaaa

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Mena why did you just switch to SS as soon as Peta mentioned ISOing SS?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I know but in my defence she was very scummy? And also I (now foolishly, although Dunn may have been even worse guillobait so maybe not that foolishly) pushed for dunn over her so i wasn’t totally heartless

This does not feel like the gallant noble town!Mena I know and love

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Because I think I townread peta now lmao

which post did it for you?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Well this doesn’t feel like town!pooky which.. would normally imply that you’re town, but normally you’re trying to pocket me not looking for excuses to guillotine me sooooo

uh if this was scum!Pooky you'd already be in my pocket chilling

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I think her actions conflict with what I would expect of a town!JK which is to try and make saves not to create a shitton of ambiguity in the gamestate by generating ambiguous guilties and softclears

This is silly.

JKs should aim for blocks, not aim for saves.

Blocks create guilties - its like nobody would expect this person to be NK'd.

Saves create ambiguity - if a save is actually a block, it means you cleared somebody bad.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

All of this resonated with me and felt like he was really trying to solve/towny indignation at being scumread for a bad reason/the “well I’m not” when I said I’d vindicated with his redflip had towny “you’re a fucking idiot” energy which is not clearing as scum can make those posts but like idk if peta is that good at scum tonally and in conjunction with the other bits it really feels more like town

There’s one big thing giving me pause which is the post he made a page ago trying absolve Dave but mostly he feels confused and a bit frustrated and tired and trying to put things together and finding they don’t fit. Which is, uh, my feelings almost to a T

have you never played with scum!peta before?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

This is literally, literally the opposite of what recommended play is: you play as a doctor early game then shift to playing as a roleblocker late game

It feels like you want to be right more than you want to catch bad guys here :3

[Smoke and Mirrors]

No, why?

It doesn't sound like you have a lot of respect for his scum game if you are willing to flip him to town based on just that so I'm confused whether this is a real thought or you just realized you need to switch tacks because you are losing the 1v1.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Have you?

yup

he shot me on night 1 when i was his scum partner and didn't even give me a headsup.

he used the town-cred from that move to win the game.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Incidentally, which game was this?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=84227

[Smoke and Mirrors]

That substantially increases the odds of Dave-peta being a gambit then

?

what gambit?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Peta is claiming that he went for 1s watcher, which Dave has claimed as a role

I was originally wondering if neither 1s watcher nor doc were in the game, and that’s why scum were hesitant to go for, for example, skitter in the early game — bc they only knew about the watcher not being present, not about the doc

Peta’s claim means that Dave (imo the obviously correct choice to flip on play out of the “possible redirector” slots) was safe, and it loved onto being between (me, S_S, infinity, him)

I was thinking my townflip would look v bad for Dave and peta here and the way they’re tied together would definitely sink the other if the one is scum, but if peta has made plays like that before then he probably is confident enough as scum to make a play like that and to try and win in 7

This might as well be written in French Mena.

Can you explain it like I'm 11?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

pooky are you gonna hold the specter of that game over me for all time or are you gonna acually try to read me this game

It is certainly memorable for me Peta :3

[Smoke and Mirrors]

how would you feel if i told you i won best scum player in 2012

how would you feel if I told you I won best overall player in 2005. :3

[Smoke and Mirrors]

>no cop claim but we know cop is in game
>cop slot must be in players above TGP, along with peta claiming cop
>lilith is confirmed not-it
>leaves (infinity, S_S, peta, dave)
>Dave is worst looking of those slots and prob the one to be flipped today without a claim
>Dave claims 1s watcher which I would normally totally flip
>peta claims he went for 1s watcher too and claimed he went for cop slot as a gambit
>this puts me back into the pool along with NM
>NM claims neighbouriser which we know exists and apparently can’t be scum because people love ignoring the problem of induction
>means the pool becomes (peta, me, infinity, S_S) as people no longer wanna kill Dave bc he can only be the 1s redirector (confirmed scum through not claiming during massclaim) if peta is lying about going for the 1s watcher

I should really read the rules huh.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Well what would you guys say if I told you I won rising star for 2019

mmm site player quality must've taken a dive or something

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I am terrible, so

You are a gentleman and one of the finest players I know.

Now tell me why you're actually good here

[Smoke and Mirrors]

my style was always to pretty much throw my partners to the wolves at the first sign of trouble

ngl you kill your partners before trouble even shows up

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I will re-read and talk with Nancy some more after I'm done. Have some other things to wrap up tonight.

I've never played with scum!Mena before.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I think Nancy is on your side and she's mostly the one who calls the shots in this hydra so you should be fine unless I convince her you're bad but I've never been very good at convincing her of anything :3

[Smoke and Mirrors]

vote count 4.15

Menalque (3):

Not_Mafia, davesaz, petapan

petapan (3):

Infinity 324, Menalque, Hoopla

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Best Bird, Smoke and Mirrors

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-26 17:00:00)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- quack

Just 13 hours left, God. @Davez, @Infinity can you please give me both of your respective cases on both Mena and Peta please? Thanks.

~Nancy

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Mena was

blocked on

saved from a

no

-kill night 1.

Ftfy

What was Lillith’s read on you att? For strictly personal reasons, I’d much rather watch paint dry then slog through all that.

It probably doesn’t change anything though because unless there’s literally a hard guilty, I base my votes mainly on play.

~N

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Lilith thought I was scum, although I’m not totally sure how much that had to do with the cop gambit I was pulling last time she was in thread

And cool, does that mean you’re TRing me then?

I’m saying that I want to see arguments based off of play and by itself Dave’s reason isn’t enough to decide my vote. I need to see arguments on Peta as well.

~N

[Smoke and Mirrors]

If S&M vote peta and we don’t get confirmation from Best Bird/S_S that they’ll be around to hammer then I’ll self before I go to sleep

MEEEEEEEEENNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAA

you wouldn't self on me would you? ? ??

[Smoke and Mirrors]

S&M has also now survived two nights in a row while being a claimed role, although granted uncrowned and skitt were much more consensus townreads

What roles were they? If as Peta said she was being presumably heavily sr for inactivity then why would scum even want to kill her when they can get an easy misexecute on her?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

so your role is the only explanation for the missing kill

*cough* no kill *cough*

I think we really shouldn’t rule that out as a possibility. It’s possible Mena could have been the target as well. Mena could have been roleblocked scum making the kill, he could have been scum’s target or scum could possibly have no killed. Anyone of these things is possible.

Again, this decision needs to be based off of play. I wouldn’t hypothetically vote out a player who was obvtown by play solely based on being jk’d - jk doesn’t necessarily = roleblock. Iif Mena is scummy by play, then it makes it likely he’s the reason for a no kill. And yes, he made it abundantly clear he wanted us dead pretty much before I’d even made 3 posts but he has been reacessing and sorting us. Had he remained voteparked on us like SK!Alchemist did in Post-Apocalypse, this decision would be a slam dunk for me.

~N

[Smoke and Mirrors]

And if S_S doesn’t show me selfing would avoid that

He prob will, so it’s prob a moot point, but still

How did you get from here to voting SS?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

If S&M vote peta and we don’t get confirmation from Best Bird/S_S that they’ll be around to hammer then I’ll self before I go to sleep

MEEEEEEEEENNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAA

you wouldn't self on me would you? ? ??

+1

You mean to avoid a no execute because that is the only reason to ever do that if you’re town?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

@mod can we please get an updated VC? Thanks.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Can you link it for me?

I’ve seen the case for Peta that Infinity linked but does anyone have a case for Mena other than the him being jk’d N1? I’m happy to entertain that if his play backs it up but without that it’s at least in part wifom.

~N

[Smoke and Mirrors]

my strong towns are mena and ss

i'm still weakly townreding infinity

everyone else is in my pool on some level, esp. if dunn is town

Well she was obviously wrong on Lillith. Hmmmmmm

[Smoke and Mirrors]

my strong towns are mena and ss

i'm still weakly townreding infinity

everyone else is in my pool on some level, esp. if dunn is town

Well she was obviously wrong on Lillith. Hmmmmmm

Right, but you know how strong she is

Is it more likely she was wrong on or two things, or on everything?

Well as I said, no one so far has made a case on you other than the N1 jk and I’m still waiting but I won’t vote short of anything other than a hard guilty unless it matches up with play. I learned that lesson in the DnD game when I hydra’d with Math.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

You guys have no idea how long I've been talking to Nancy to convince her Mena is wolf here.

VOTE: Mena

I think this one is a wolf.

Peta is the snowed one here.

I think the tell is Mena kept saying he will self-hammer previously and then decided to go to "sleep" while putting SS at L-1 and telling SS it was a scum-claim if he didn't self-hammer.

Also in my first game with Mena, he saw me do this very LAMISTy thing on D1 when I was at L-1 and then go to "sleep" it pocketed him hard enough that he switched direction the wagon and led to a town elim on D1. I feel that he is doing the same thing to SS here.

The speed at which the wagon changed where SS went from 0 to 4 while we r approaching deadline is very suspicious to me it feels like this was something decided earlier. Peta is going to be the fall guy tommorrow while Infinity is the patsy who will give the scum the win.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I’m here, not particularly happy about this turn of events but it’s better than mena I suppose

I’ll hammer with 2 hours left or something just in case S&M want to do something

PEdit: yeah S&M are scum

Nope.

Mena is very good at LAMISTing and you are snowed.

Sheep us tomm after SS flips green thx.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

who, in the world where I'm scum, am I scum with? if you cannot come up with an answer, I must have no partners, therefore I must be town. if you continue to vote for me under that knowledge, you're scum claiming, it's simple as

its very strange for mena to use this line when he hasn't proposed a scumteam for SS to be with.

the purpose of this line is for SS to shade people so SS has no support.

I don't think Mena swings from Peta to SS and the wagon goes from 0 to 4 unless Mena does have a team.

Peta obviously isn't it - so it's between bigbird and hoopla- possibly both of them, tho that is pretty unlikely. I'm guessing one of hoopla/bigbird, and one scum buddy who is voting for mena to create separation.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

just speak to me haert to heart please

mena is scum-lamisting.

his self-hammer thing is a joke, he never even intended to be "awake" to self-hammer.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I’m here, not particularly happy about this turn of events but it’s better than mena I suppose

I’ll hammer with 2 hours left or something just in case S&M want to do something

PEdit: yeah S&M are scum

You also thougt I was scum in Boon game too and had Bulge had a roleblocker you probably would have lost us that game.

Poooky and I have been debating this for hours. We had the opportunity to hammer Mena earlier but we didn’t? Why wouldn’t scum!us have jumped at that? Seriously think!

[Smoke and Mirrors]

like infinity smoke&mirrors being scum doesnt add up unless theyre scum with exactly smart here, right? bc otherwise they just hammer

just speak to me haert to heart please

That’s what I’ve been saying. We were debating beween everyone but Infinity who is obvtown and we realized that we were being stupid. There was no kill and why would Mena be the save? Does that really make sense to you? I feel so stupid now.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Every damn game I’m the pocket, so @Infinity you can execute us tomorrow if we’re wrong here but I don’t think so and if we’re right, we will probably be NK’d anyway.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

like look at how this progression makes 0 sense:

And if S_S doesn’t show me selfing would avoid that

He prob will, so it’s prob a moot point, but still

VOTE: S_S

He says he will self-hammer/vote if SS doesnt show up

15 minutes later he's like vote SS.

That's not a town line of thought in any universe.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

pooky did you know a friend of mine once said i am easily manipulated

I believe in you Peta.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

VOTE: menalque


im so so so so fcuking sorry if this is wrong

We will take the responsibility if we’re wrong but I just let Mena’s charisma sway me and he is objectively adorable. Pooky kept telling me that I was being pocketed once again but I refused to listen. That happens to me in almost every game. Scum practically cried when I replaced in one game and in No Deadlines the entire scumteam pocketed me and it 100% would have worked to if Pooky hadn’t have convinced me of that. Sorry Pooky. :/

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I can’t believe I die for a misrep

I knew you were awake dude

[Smoke and Mirrors]

only scum pull the fake "I'm going to sleep if this guy doesn't self-hammer he's scum routine" 5 hours before deadline.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I'm going to bed now

guess I will wake up to either vindication or the crushing knowledge that I am doomed to have to play a lylo in this game, or to the sweet release of death if weird stuff happens

this was you an hour ago dude

[Smoke and Mirrors]

actually you wouldn't twilight troll me.

huh

you really did do the scummiest possible play at deadline wow

[Smoke and Mirrors]

mena you dolt why would you lie about sleeeeeping

[Smoke and Mirrors]

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Spoiler:

So uh I have a few things to say

First, I'm quite annoyed by Menalque's play yesterday. I very clearly telegraphed my confusion and uncertainty before deciding at the eleventh hour that Menalque was the best compromise (and it was based on me having a strong townread on peta, which was RIGHT) only to have him rip into me because how could I possibly be so confident that he's scum, when I obviously WASN'T confident. It will be interesting to look at the wagons knowing all of peta/me/Menalque are town-- intuitively I would guess that at least one scum jumped on me because they wanted to save the Menalque/peta fight for lylo.

Second, I'm actually really glad peta was killed, because I think I was leaning him over Infinity, because I wanted to trust in Menalque and skitter's townreads of Infinity and peta's vote switching was kinda awful. I don't know why peta was killed; maybe it was just to give Infinity an excuse to drop his townread of me.

Third, when the day opened I asked myself if there was any reason not to vote Infinity immediately, and it turns out there is. It requires very specifically S&M/N_M/BB or S&M/N_M/Hoopla where N_M claimed neighborizer to cover for his real neighborizer partner and he's actually redirector. This is a pretty remote possibility, but there is no harm in taking things a little slower.

I don’t understand this @SS, why are we even in your PoE? As for NM, couldn’t this be verified based on who he claimed to neighbourize and the neighbourizing target confirm it? And of course, we should take this slower because we obviously lose if we misexecute another townie.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

That would have been epic if true, too bad.
I guessed wrong on who the kill would be.

Yeah, we did too, unfortunately. I thought it would be Infinty which is why we jk’d them.

This is Nancy btw.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Where is everyone? I would request prods but it’s still the holidays in the States rn. right?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I will vote any of SM/SS/infinity or Dave if he keeps being dumb.

Why would you vote Dave for being “dumb”? Do you or do you not realize this is Elo?

If you think he’s playing “dumb” then that obviously means you’re tr him doesn’t it?

And I put the same question to you I asked SS. Since you obviously know there’s 0 chance we are the questionable cop claim slot, we would you even seriously consider voting us today?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I don't like neighbourhoods, my role is already proven by dunn

Yeah lilith is town and also I was neighborized by somebody last night so can confirm that role is in the game

Why did you not let Dunn know it was you who neighbourized him though? Then he could have confirmed you not just your role right?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I want to know if people are leaning towards voting me or s_s more.

yes, we're eliminating between you & SS today given there is at least one scum between you (barring a ridiculous neighbouriser gambit, which i guess is now possible since N_M didn't use it last night).

but i still want those three to talk about the gamestate for a while, since they literally have no expressed reads attached to their name. at least one of you (N_M, dave, S&M) has to be town, so please try.

S & M
Hoopla
Davez
NM

I think this is probably all town.

If we can correctly guess between SS and Infinity that would be ideal. Post Mena flip, I thought SS but he’s sounding better today and I really expected Infinity to be the NK. I think NM as the questionable cop slot is quite a stretch. I still lean to SS but less sure now and if we can’t confidently decide between him and Infinity, I wasn’t exactly thrilled with BB seriously considering voting Dave for being “dumb” though because it read to me like he would be down with voting for a slot he was clearly tr, so that’s at the very least, antitown af, considering we’re in freaking Elo rn.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I think this is probably all town.

You think that Infinity and I killed off peta so that we'd be forced into a 1v1 today and now we're barely even pushing it?

???

How are you getting that from my post?

I obviously think at least one of you has to be town because as I already said, NM is a serious stretch. So I’m completely baffled where you got that from.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

But sure, go ahead and assume something without giving a chance for a response.

That's the nancy head, right? Right.

Yes why?

we would you even seriously consider voting us today?

Because your slot has been scummy the whole game and you've done zero to change that. I'd go so far as to say you've probably made it worse.

How? If you think Dave is town why would you even seriously consider voting him in Elo?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I don't like neighbourhoods, my role is already proven by dunn

Makes no sense why you wouldn't allow someone access to the neighborhood to confirm things you've said here just because you "don't like neighborhoods."

Well we know the role does exist but so far no one else has counterclaimed it, so only way he’s lying is if that were to happen right?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Where are you getting that I think dave is town?

I will vote any of SM/SS/infinity or Dave

if he keeps being dumb.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

dumb
[ duhm ]SHOW IPA


SEE SYNONYMS FOR dumb
adjective, dumb·er, dumb·est.
lacking intelligence or good judgment; stupid; dull-witted.
lacking the power of speech (offensive when applied to humans):
a dumb animal.
temporarily unable to speak:
dumb with astonishment.
refraining from any or much speech; silent.
made, done, etc., without speech.
SEE MORE
Verb Phrases
dumb down, Informal. to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated:
to dumb down a textbook; American movies have dumbed down.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

How are you getting that from my post?

You listed four people and said they were all town, implying that the other three are scum. Was that not your intention?

I said “probably” based off of current reads. Read my post again. Obviously the only slot I’m sure is town is us.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I AM LITERALLY TELLING YOU WHAT I MEANT WITH MY USAGE OF DUMB NANCY

good god

So you think Dave is hedging about his shot because he’s lying about his role?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

If we have 1-shots that are

more useful the smaller the player list gets

, we give them room and don't out them so that scum don't know who the real danger is.

Crumb, and philosophy. Guess what, I play hold-em. Also a crumb. Have not used, and would have wasted it twice so far if I had tried to.

Oh, you’re hardclaiming you didn’t use it? Why not, considering this is Elo? When were you planning to use it then?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

man, that is a wild idea.

surely there's no way it can be

that

.

But no one has CC’d NM and his role was confirmed by Dunn, so he has to be neighbourizer because if he weren’t someone else would be calling his bluff and confirming that they neighbourized instead of NM. Like I did in TSoW when scum!Bulge accused me of lying about being in a hood. All I had to do was to paraphrase a bunch of posts that were pretty much inconceivable for me to have made up.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Yeah that's what I was thinking. It's just a weird kill + n_m not neighborizing + all the slots that have scum equity

are doing nothing rn

. Third partner would be S&M/dave I guess, I lean towards S&M.

I hate to break it to you but I actually have life outside of mafia.

Notification

Venus and Mars has been prodded.

Feeling like Nancy and Shiro would try harder if they were scum

How did you possibly forget about this, Infinity?

And that quote was coming from a player who is actually familiar with my meta. He knows from playing with scum!me that I tend to be a tryhard as scum, where as as town, my activity levels are inconsistent depending on the game. Check out Merchant’s Dance, Coalition where I hyperposted. In MD, I actually reached 1100 posts.

As for Pooky, check our both Dung games where I was the one to carry for our hydra. Thanks for posting this though, even if it wasn’t what you intended.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

you know, it actually would be a genius play if N_M was mafia redirector and BB was mafia neighbouriser and they swapped roles

I literally brought this up at the very start of the day, lol.

And I think if it is true it's a hell of a lot more likely with you than it is with BB.

Wrt to any potential role swapping, there’s no actual evidence that scum redirected me. I suppose it’s definitely possible we just jk’d the wrong people but you’d think that perhaps at least one of them might have gotten redirected I know that actually did almost happen to me and RC in You’ve Got Mail. JK!FL protected us N2 but he was roleblocked, so we would have died if we hadn’t had used our commuter.

oh wow, guess I don’t get exclamation marks or a heart then :sadmena:

YOU WERE LITERALLY THE FIRST PERSON I SAID HI TOOO!!!


ok got my night actions

n1:
Mena <3

n2:
Infinity

n3:
Not Mafia

[Smoke and Mirrors]

How did you possibly forget about this, Infinity?

Did you expect me to remember that one post? Idk, if it's RL stuff it's NAI.

Why wouldn’t you? Creature made it a point of requoting it. Some reason you’re completely dismissing what he said? It’s extemely clear he meant he expects scum!me to be very actively involved or he obviously wouldn’t have posted that not just once but twice.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Wrt to any potential role swapping, there’s no actual evidence that scum redirected me. I suppose it’s definitely possible we just jk’d the wrong people but you’d think that perhaps at least one of them might have gotten redirected I know that actually did almost happen to me and RC in You’ve Got Mail. JK!FL protected us N2 but he was roleblocked, so we would have died if we hadn’t had used our commuter.

The theory is that n_m is the redirector and hoopla or bird is the neighborizer, and n_m claimed neighborizer to fuck with town's math.

Explain this.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Wrt to any potential role swapping, there’s no actual evidence that scum redirected me.

...why does that have anything to do with it?

The biggest issue in the roleswap is, how did they know N_M was going to be jailed N3. If the roleswap is real, then either you are also scum, or they were going to have N_M claim to have neighborized a buddy and instead they just improvised.

I was also jk in Labrynth and scum redirected my Shoshin jk onto can’t recall player name offhand, so I was obviously the target, I think would be the logical assumption? Scum was clearly threatened by me in that game and I’m pretty damn sure had I been in this slot from the getgo, that likely would have happened here as well.

Scum in that game logically assumed I’d protect an obvtown slot and they were not wrong in that because the player whom my Shoshin jk was redirected to was not obvtown and they had no way of knowing that I was going to protect Shoshin.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Spoiler:

I will hate myself if we lose to S&M/n_m/bird because it fits with my reads so well but it seems so unlikely. Who came up with the no kill idea? The roleswapping idea? How did n_m know they'd get redirector so late?

Though S&M are ignoring that this is a pretty unique scum game where they're very likely to win if they don't do anything in Elo and me or s_s votes the other.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. It's just a weird kill + n_m not neighborizing + all the slots that have scum equity

are doing nothing rn

. Third partner would be S&M/dave I guess, I lean towards S&M.

I hate to break it to you but I actually have life outside of mafia.

Notification

Venus and Mars has been prodded.

Feeling like Nancy and Shiro would try harder if they were scum

How did you possibly forget about this, Infinity?

And that quote was coming from a player who is actually familiar with my meta. He knows from playing with scum!me that I tend to be a tryhard as scum, where as as town, my activity levels are inconsistent depending on the game. Check out Merchant’s Dance, Coalition where I hyperposted. In MD, I actually reached 1100 posts.

As for Pooky, check our both Dung games where I was the one to carry for our hydra. Thanks for posting this though, even if it wasn’t what you intended.

How did you possibly forget about this, Infinity?

Did you expect me to remember that one post? Idk, if it's RL stuff it's NAI.

Why wouldn’t you? Creature made it a point of requoting it. Some reason you’re completely dismissing what he said? It’s extemely clear he meant he expects scum!me to be very actively involved or he obviously wouldn’t have posted that not just once but twice.

I will hate myself if we lose to S&M/n_m/bird because it fits with my reads so well but it seems so unlikely. Who came up with the no kill idea? The roleswapping idea? How did n_m know they'd get redirector so late?

Though S&M are ignoring that

this is a pretty unique scum game where they're very likely to win if they don't do anything in Elo and me or s_s votes the other.

What part these posts are you misinterpreting?

What exactly do you think I’m ignoring? Am I also scum now for not mind reading you?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I really expected Infinity to be the NK

I really don't like this reasoning for possibly suspecting me given that there was a decent amount of support for my elim yesterday (bird, s_s) and I'm in the redirector pool.

Why not? I thought it made the most sense for me to protect the slot that didn’t claim to have a watcher/neighbourize that I was most strongly tr at the time. So why wouldn’t Peta NK have made me less sure on that? I would think that if it hadn’t made me less sure, that should be what should logically make you suspicious.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

It's worth noting that scum killed in the redirector group, which is widely seen as a misplay, but S&M has shown that they think a kill in the redirector group would have been reasonable.

Why not? Are you arguing that scum never makes NKs to confuse town? That’s exactly what happened in Surprise Mafia. Scum actually NK’d a freaking lurker slot. And that wasn’t the only NK in that game that didn’t make any sense. None of them did and that’s probably what they were going for.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Not too much interesting here, but the lack of lilith CW means that scum is likely to have been not voting/less active, which makes s_s and JV likely partners.

Also S&M could be town

Calling bullshit on mena. I jailkept NM last night. I think mena is lying about being blocked to avoid having to give more results.

Also mena’s play D3 makes no sense as a cop receiving an innocent result on skitter. I want crumbs.

This kinda feels like TMI.

@s_s Were you ever able to get a good read on lilith?

The slot is so scummy that I want just to vote there, but it doesn't look like I'll get the votes.

s_s, who's scum (with me)?

Why would you fypov, even want to execute a slot that can’t possibly be redirector?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

You read it right, obviously from my pov neither of us will flip scum-not-redirector barring some total bullshit.

How did I miss this post?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

You read it right, obviously from my pov neither of us will flip scum-not-redirector barring some total bullshit.

How did I miss this post?

#4232 and this post really don’t make a lot of sense.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

My priority there would always be denying town the cop

The problem with doing this is then you pretty much have to claim cop. And skitter can tell you how well that goes :3

Hmm

What about Skitter? @SS

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I’m arguing against the idea that me and s_s are both scum. If that was the case, it would be a big risk since if one of us flipped not-redirector, the other one would basically be confirmed to be redirector. In that case, we almost certainly wouldn’t have killed peta (and probably one of us would’ve claimed cop).

First post of yours I’ve read so far today that’s actually making sense to me. Which makes it even stranger that you’d be pushing us. That’s what’s confusing me.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Well someone in the draft above TGP took the cop slot, since TGP went for cop and didn’t get it. Of the players currently alive, that’s me, s_s, dave, you, and n_m. Dunn confirmed that you got jk, and peta confirmed that dave got watcher. That leaves me, s_s, and n_m. n_m claimed neighborizer, and dunn verified that the role is in the game. However, since we don’t know that n_m is the neighborizer, it’s possible that n_m is instead the redirector and one of n_m’s scumbuddies (probably bird) is the actual neighborizer.

But how would Dunn have known that role exists then? In CoD, Maria informed us we had a neighbourhood but they didn’t tell us who with, so if Tris hadn’t have shown up and we didn’t pm the mod, we never would have known that.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

-snip-

But what does any of this have to do with the possibility of a roleswap? We know there's a redirector regardless.

I already explained my reasoning on that to Infinity in #4262.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I mean

You say you’re town for not being active. I say ok, that may be true in general, but if it’s RL then it’s NAI

and

there are many reasons why scum might want to lurk in this game and not others.

No, that isn’t what I said at all. Please read my post again. What I did say that as town my activity is far more likely to be inconsistent, where as scum I’m usually a lot more active. I never ever said I couldn’t be active also as town. I’m saying that lack of engagement in a game is town indicative for me, which is basically what I think Creature was arguing.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I really expected Infinity to be the NK

I really don't like this reasoning for possibly suspecting me given that there was a decent amount of support for my elim yesterday (bird, s_s) and I'm in the redirector pool.

Why not? I thought it made the most sense for me to protect the slot that didn’t claim to have a watcher/neighbourize that I was most strongly tr at the time. So why wouldn’t Peta NK have made me less sure on that? I would think that if it hadn’t made me less sure, that should be what should logically make you suspicious.

Fair enough, but I’m not sure why you expected a possible redirector slot to be the NK is what I’m saying. I thought it would be hoopla or maybe n_m since people were talking about how neighborizer is almost always town.

I did also consider Hoopla as well. Why would I jk a claimed PR? If I were a role stopper otoh, that would obviously be different. I think the reason I chose you was because you seemed to be the most against the Mena wagon but Peta being the NK confused me because it just doesn’t make any sense that it would be him over you or Hoopla.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Why not? Are you arguing that scum never makes NKs to confuse town? That’s exactly what happened in Surprise Mafia. Scum actually NK’d a freaking lurker slot. And that wasn’t the only NK in that game that didn’t make any sense. None of them did and that’s probably what they were going for.

I'm arguing that scum NK's usually have more of a reason behind them than "confuse town", though that may be part of it. Confusion doesn't help scum unless it actually drives town to do something scum want them to do.

Well I invite you to read that game and explain to me wtf scum were thinking because it still doesn’t make sense to me.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

@4253 I’m paranoid as hell of the n_m redirector gambit, and you make the most sense as a partner there. I also think you make the most sense as a partner for s_s/dave or just with s_s and n_m. But maybe the most logical thing to do would be to vote s_s. Idk.

Voting a slot that has 0 chance of being redirector is definitely not logical especially since I know you’re wrong about me.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

You read it right, obviously from my pov neither of us will flip scum-not-redirector barring some total bullshit.

How did I miss this post?

#4232 and this post really don’t make a lot of sense.

Hmm?

I think that’s already been covered. I thought it made no sense you were pushing me after making that post.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

That post has nothing to do with your alignment, all it’s saying is that I am not scumbuddies with s_s.

Also how good is your scum game?

Why aren’t you asking that question to a slot that actually has a snowball’s chance in hell at being redirector?



Since you actually do, why don’t you answer that?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Dunn didn’t say who the neighborizer was.

Why do you seem to keep missing the point of nearly all of my posts today? My point obviously is how did he know that that role was in the game?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I mean

You say being inactive is towny for you. I say ok, that may be true in general, but if it’s RL then it’s NAI

and

there are many reasons why scum might want to lurk in this game and not others.

EBWOP, it really doesn’t change my argument.

Okay, I’m starting to get irritated at your continual misrepping of my posting. I won’t respond as long as you continue to do that.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I think you make sense as scum no matter who the redirector is.

And I think it’s highly sus that you’re hardpushing me over a slot that could actually be redirector. You’re all over the place, pushing both SS and NM but trying to get me flipped instead. And I don’t understand why you’re pushing NM when no one has CC’d that role?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

My scumgame is inconsistent. Even at my best though, I’m pretty far outside of my scumrange here I think.

PEdit: obviously dunn was neighborized.

PEdit 2: how is it a misrep?

Because you keep misinterpreting the vast majority of my posting today, where I didn’t get that impression yesterday.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Is your argument not that lack of engagement is a towntell for you?

Yes but you were previously saying that I was saying that I’m not also engaged as town when what I clearly said that my activity is meta wise, inconsistent as town. So if you’re actually finally getting it then why do you keep ignoring it.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Fair enough, but it does make me want to elim S&M more. Regardless, I guess that’s not happening today.

Are you still on dave?

I feel like dave is town but I’m not sure we can win anyway if dave is town, so I could be convinced to vote there

.

Lolwut

Are you scum here @Infinity?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

@S&M

who are you leaning towards in SS/infinity?

Infinity has been extremely scummy today but I’m still paranoing on SS.

I don’t like the whole redirector paranoia towards NM. I feel that both of them but particularly Infinty has been trying push a confirmed slot as scum redirector. Now Infinty also is okay with us executing a slot he claims to townread. What town ever thinks like that?

Infinity knows we can lose the game if we misexecute so in what world does town!Infinity think that executing a tr in Elo makes an iota of sense?

So, I’m heavily leaning to Infinity rn.

It’s really concerning to me that Infinty has been trying to push both me and NM over SS as well. It almost seems like he only voted SS because mine and NM’s pushback made him realize how scummy his play has been today. I don’t think him and SS are buddies because that would obviously make no sense based on the Peta NK. so I’m extremely worried that SS is town and Infinity is pushing anything: me, NM and now Davez - a slot he claims to tr instead of SS.

And he’s voting SS but trying to convince the rest of us to not vote either one.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

No but you’re doing a pretty good job setting up to vote me after nancy called me obvtown.

Nothing you’re doing today has been remotely townie. Your misrepping most of my posts, you pushing me who has no chance of being redirector. Your pushing NM who whose role we know Dunn confirmed and now you’re apparently okay with executing Davez - a slot you say you’re tr over SS? How do you expect me to townread you for any of that?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Fair enough, but it does make me want to elim S&M more. Regardless, I guess that’s not happening today.

Are you still on dave?

I feel like dave is town but I’m not sure we can win anyway if dave is town, so I could be convinced to vote there

.

Lolwut

Are you scum here @Infinity?

No but you’re doing a pretty good job setting up to vote me after nancy called me obvtown.

This is Elo and you are seriously saying you’re okay with executing a player you’re tr. Now if you’re were actually paranoiaing on Davez, no that wouldn’t be scummy but you say you’re tr him. I just get the sense that you’re okay with executing pretty much anyone but you or SS. Am I wrong about that because that’s how your play today has been reading to me.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I play a lot of magic the gathering, and one thing that’s important in that game is to play to your outs. Meaning, if you have a very low chance to win a game, you ignore the worst-case scenarios since you’re never going to win those anyway and play to win the best-case scenario. In this case, it’s very possible that we just can’t win if dave is town, since I’ll never be able to convince him to vote you. Also, hoopla is the closest thing to a consensus townread we have. Since town has to vote together, I want to be voting with hoopla today. I may think the redirector gambit is a possibility, but I don’t think I’ll be able to convince hoopla to vote you, n_m,

or bird

today, so it’s better to vote s_s, who I know is scum if the gambit didn’t happen. I explained my logic for why the redirector gambit is a reasonable possibility in my head—it’s one of the only things that explains the peta kill, which would force a false 1v1 in that case. n_m not neighborizing someone also looks suspicious, especially since no they neighborized the n3 kill on n3.

Holy shit, now you’re even throwing BB out there as well? My God, you’re seriously saying that the only player you refuse to vote out is Hoopla.

The whole reason your reasoning sounds so icky is that Dunn confirmed NM’s role and you seem to either be ignoring that or not seeing how it’s impossible for NM to be redirector. And why BB, you think what, him and NM switched scum roles here or what?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

How can NM possibly be redirector when no one else has CC’d his neighbourizer claim? Unless you’re arguing that NM/BB/Us are the team or did I totally misread your post?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Yes that is the redirector gambit idea. I don’t want to elim bird, but if I was convinced the gambit happened, he would be a possible elim. It’s not impossible for n_m to be redirector and this has been explained multiple times.

Truth is, I really don’t want to elim someone who reads town every time they post to me, but logically s_s is just scum here.

But you have made it extremely clear you would vote me out over SS if you got the votes and you have been pushing mainly on me and NM. You have hardly been pushing SS today at all and now you’re suddenly doubling down on that because I’m calling you out on that?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

There could be a different scum who is neighborizer (bird or

hoopla

)

Wow, now Hoopla, after I just literally called you out on throwing everyone in the playerlist out there except her?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

There could be a different scum who is neighborizer (bird or

hoopla

)

Also,

hoopla is the closest thing to a consensus townread we have

. Since town has to vote together, I want to be voting with hoopla today. I may think the redirector gambit is a possibility, but I don’t think I’ll be able to convince hoopla to vote you, n_m, or bird today

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Are we playing the game of “list every player infinity mentions in his posts”? There’s zero possible way you could interpret that as me shading hoopla.

How is you literally proposing that Hoopla could be neighbourizing scum constitute “mentioning” to you?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Did I say that hoopla was remotely likely to be the scum neighborizer or?

#4307

You just suggested that she or BB could possibly be neighbourizing scum with NM. Are you saying I misread that?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Honestly I don’t believe that pooky ever convinced you to vote mena. Mena was obvtown as hell on play and

no one ever denied that

. You just wanted an excuse to save s_s.

vote count 4.20

Menalque (5):

Not_Mafia, davesaz, Something_Smart, Smoke and Mirrors, petapan

Something_Smart (3):

Menalque, Best Bird, Hoopla

petapan (1):

Infinity 324

Not voting

:

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-26 17:00:00)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- quack

It looks to me like you are the one who’s doing that. You just keep saying things that are clearly untrue. Mena didn’t get misexexecuted because he was “obvtown as hell”.

And yes he did change my mind by making me see that it was stupid of me to ignore the possibility that no kill happened because of Lillith jk. But sure keep twisting that like you did nearly all of my posts yesterday.

Why are you trying so hard to push me over fypov a slot that has the most odds of being redirector other than you?

And if you’re so convinced it has to be SS, then wtf is up with all of this scum neighbourizer thing you keep pushing? You know I did the exact same thing as scum in Undertale. I kept hardpushing Maria hydra but did everything possible to avoid voting there. I wanted that slot executed but didn’t want to get blood on my hands and PB nailed me on that dead to rights and I froze because I had no idea how to recover from that. I can link you to that game if you’re interested?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Spoiler:

Fypov obviously the no kill happened because of the lilith JK. But you ignored the possibility that mena was targeted by a night kill.

It probably doesn’t change anything though because unless there’s literally a hard guilty, I base my votes mainly on play.

This doesn't match up with your actions. I asked you multiple times to look at a key spot where mena was obvtowning but you either didn't do that or you ignored the fact that mena was obvtown by play. It wasn't a hard guilty. Hoopla gave some good reasons in 3665 for why mena could've been NKed.

Why are you trying so hard to push me over fypov a slot that has the most odds of being redirector other than you?

I considered all of those things which is what took me so long to vote. You can shade me all you want, it doesn’t make scum because I was wrong.

I also base my reads on play, and s_s has played pretty towny imo. That doesn't change now that I know he's scum (I'm sure scum would've quickhammered by now).

And if you’re so convinced it has to be SS, then wtf is up with all of this scum neighbourizer thing you keep pushing?

hoopla is the closest thing to a consensus townread we have. Since town has to vote together, I want to be voting with hoopla today. I may think the redirector gambit is a possibility, but I don’t think I’ll be able to convince hoopla to vote you, n_m, or bird today, so it’s better to vote s_s, who I know is scum if the gambit didn’t happen.

You can shade me all you want but being wrong on Mena doesn’t make me scum. This is what is seriously pinging me, why would you want to vote out me, n_m or BB over SS? Because Hoopla thinks that’s dumb or what? If you could convince her, would you prefer voting any of the 3 > SS? Is that what you’re saying?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I would’ve probably wanted to vote you, yeah. You make sense as scum in all my solves, and both you and lilith are scummy as hell.

This should go without saying, but a no elim in ELo is not an option.

Why tf would you want a no elim?

And fyi. if this wasn’t exactly Elo, I’d probably already be voting you for excessively scummy play today. But I’m still paranoid on SS and don’t want to make a mistake.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Yeah I’m just worried that people will flake out and we’ll get a no elim

Apathy is town’s greatest enemy.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Real talk NM, why did Mafia try to kill you last night?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

the only other reason would be mafia no-kills because they do not want to narrow POE

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I don't know you were targeted for the kill

I know I JK you and nobody died.

so either you killed (imo unlikely)

you were shot (possible)

scum want to keep POE big and they think you will make a mistake( also possible)

[Smoke and Mirrors]

That would be an odd choice for sure.

? why is NM an odd choice?

who did you think was going to die tonight?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I kinda want to think I actually saved someone's life rather than just scum no-killed cuz i like feeling useful.

Also if we hit scum on today's elim I have a 25% chance of jailing the last scum and just autowinning tonight.

it also leashes the scum NK to me whereas that's not the case if we no-elim today, they can take their time shooting whoever they want as many times as they want until they kill that person.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I don't particularly care that much since I replaced in but if you guys want to throw the game by eliming me then its gonna be auto-lose tonight for town.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

like real talk, you know yesterday was bus-day

I wasn't on the bus.

hence I'm green not red - if i know SS is flipping red I'd be positioned way better than sitting on my thumbs while he gets rocketed off to mars.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

But if you’re town and were leaning towards voting me, scum didn’t have to bus?

SS got like 5 votes and I'm green and I didn't vote him so obv scum did bus.

I dunno why they bussed but I know they did it.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

like something about the game state resolution yesterday is just weird af

we had potentially 3 people in redirector-POE, but mafia chose to remove Peta from that POE making it a SS-Infinity 1v1.

except the 1v1 didnt happen, it felt like a stalled game state with some wild ass theories getting thrown around.

then right before the deadline the game state cracks and a flood of votes come in on SS and he flips red.

That's not a typical 7p lylo 1v1 gladiate resolution.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

or it as an all town wagon and votes after the hammer don't count

its actually wild you think a scum team got to 7p lylo intact and then just decided to stick together and not bus.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

thinking about this more, it may be optimal to elim today especially if S&M is one half of the team. and

especially

if N_M is the third.

the logic:

if we elim scum!S&M, there's no JK shenangians tonight. and given we would be down to one scum, it would prevent N_M from neighbourising

and

killing in the same night as scum don't have informed. so, if N_M is scum, he can't kill at night, which gives us an extra mis-elim. if N_M is town, and a kill happens, it confirms N_M as town as long as he neighbourises someone. this prevents us from burning a mis-elim on him if he's town.

this all hinges on S&M being scum. if they are, i think there's no way we don't brute force a win, as we get to test N_M

and

another slot in case we're wrong.

whereas, if we go the no-elim route we only get to test one slot other than S&M.

there's not going to be a tomorrow because after I die the scum will kill and win the game at 2-2

all this fancy theory stuff doesn't mean anything when you get punched in the face.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

we have 3 options


1) You believe im town JK, we elim scum, I get 25% shot of roleblocking the last scum.

2) You believe im town JK, we no-elim, scum get to shoot and we play F5 tomm

3) You believe im scum jk, you kill me, we lose.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

btw you guys should notice like nobody believes im a town JK despite 2 no-kills

so itd be literally the worst gambit in the history of mafia to no-kill twice for lulz and then bus ur partner cuz why not.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

like infinity

every1 thinks im scum

dont u think thats kinda wierd?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Everyone thinks you’re scum, but that includes n_m who wants to elim dave instead even though you being town makes no sense from their perspective

what?

i protected NM from NK or the scum no-killed

why would me being town not make sense from their POV?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Who's scum? You're doing a lot of defending and throwing shade, but you aren't actually saying who is the scum we elim today or the scum you have a 25% chance of catching tonight.

2 scum in [hoopla, best bird, dave]

are you scum birdie?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I'm literally the momentum behind the eod s_s elim yesterday.

That's a bad list.

bussing for cred is pretty common play in 7p elo to setup win at 5p elo

who should I be putting on the list instead?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

bussing for cred when you can start the momentum on the alternate wagon is stupid

we've been over this.

i'm pretty strongly sold on you needing to be in that list but obv you won't add yourself.

r u serious right now.

7 players 3 scum

1v1 deadlock

as scum u start momentum on your own teammate, either town bites and pushes teammate out and you have sweet cred for 5P win

OR

town doesnt bite, votes the OTHER guy, you flip momentum and you get a quick-elim on the other guy for the win.

It's like classic mafia playbook in 7P elo.

What doesnt happen is 3 mafia vote together and get crushed when entire town is just like "nah no"

[Smoke and Mirrors]

r u serious rn?

THE SUPPORT TO VOTE FOR INFINITY WAS ALREADY IMPLIED BY YOU, NM, AND DAVE.

r u saying we're all scum?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I really want to hammer this.

n_m pls bus your buddy for me. pls?

SS, Hoopla, BB team confirmed.

VOTE: Hoopla

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Y’all were too nice in the dead thread <3

<3

Skitter is always nice, she’s a sweetie. <3

~Nancy

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Subject: I don’t know where else to post this

Apparently I am being nominated for a scummie nom but being robbed of actual credit. I hydra’d with Pooky in a hydra called Smoke and Mirrors in PYP mafia. This is being nominated for a scummie but only 1 half of this hydra is being recognized for some reason. The thread is locked so I can’t correct this egregious error and in my past experience PMing the scummies’ account netted no responses, so if you want to consider my hydra Smoke and Mirrors for a scummie nomination that’s cool, what is 100% not, is failure to check your facts and realize that Pooky did not play solo but with me in the hydra Smoke and Mirrors. Please fix this asap, thank you.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=86070

Goodfellas
skitter30 and The Limit Does Not Exist (lilith2013 + Something_Smart) for their performance in Mini 2136: City That Never Sleeps.
Farkran and Chara for their performance in Undertale S Open.
Alduskel and PookyTheMagicalBear for their performance in Micro 952: The Coalition: ItGBSMoD.
Hoopla, Something_Smart, and

PookyTheMagicalBear

for their performance in Open 798: PYPX/Y+I/M

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=84707

This the game thread. As anyone can see It was Smoke and Mirrors, the hydra Pooky was in with ME who played in that game, so how is only Pooky being mentioned but not me?

This is me - 1 half of the hydra who are currently scummie nom finalists but I am being denied rightful credit.