Death Curse

[Theta Alpine]

Because I’m genius town.

if you're town dying means there is one less town member

as vaultdweller denoted in post 58 at least one town player will die every day

assuming that scum do not pass the scroll to another scum player

VOTE: bell
not only is there no scum night kill
there is no night phase and this was a prominent fact in signups

[Theta Alpine]

oh and here is something i just thought of
scum will probably save their shot to grant them victory at parity plus one

so we will most likely only get information on who scum wants dead based on who scum passes a scroll to
and their votes as well but less clear information from that
point being we have to find scum first

the good news is we have 3 day phases and 9 kills to do that
and due to how the game works we can win at close to parity as long as we know who scum is by then
having said that if we have not hit scum by day 4 we lose

[Theta Alpine]

oddly enough 3 day phases is also the quickest town could win
assuming scum does not shoot or pass to themselves

so perfect victories for both sides are a three day game

[Theta Alpine]

FIRST

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift


also in the event that we hit scum first, we should still do our darndest to hit scum on the second shot. i think its a bad play to hit town on purpose.

if we hit scum first then that person controls who gets hit second
and has absolutely every incentive to hit town on purpose

[Theta Alpine]

Isis are you allowed to tell us how many scum there are?

noraa probly scum for this post

why?

because this is an open setup and you could have just read the first post to answer your question

this is unfortunately par for the course for many town players though from what i remember so personally i would not strongly scum read you for that

missing the fact that this game is nightless on the other hand

[Theta Alpine]

appearing to forget the game is nightless in particular is probably a bad town slip to do though

unless you really want to appear like you did not check to see if the setup was nightless before signing up for the game
because that is not a town slip

p-edit
and that was the answer i was looking for
UNVOTE:

i will think about voting noraa
but i will probably wait for her response to the vote on her first
as i do not know if noraa is known to read setups or not

[Theta Alpine]

i still want to see how other people react to this as well
i mean maybe i should vote to help encourage that
but with what discussion has already occurred i do not believe that to be necessary
and ending the day quickly probably is not the best idea day 1

[Theta Alpine]

oh and do scum have daytalk?

question

did you confirm your role pm

[Theta Alpine]

I am 15% sure that was a somewhat witty joke.

well yes
actually i would weigh the chances a bit higher myself

though i suppose scum is not aware that town was also asked to confirm that scum having daytalk was a thing along with their alignment and one other thing

[Theta Alpine]

My thing is, everyone gets defensive when they are the leading wagon.

i see you have never played with me before

personally i tend to go into games knowing that as town it is usually best if i die early
and as scum that my death will give absolutely no information on the rest of my team

i mean if i ever roll solo third party i guess that might be different


to be more on topic though
in a perfect town victory there are 4 or 5 town deaths depending on if mafia shoot or not
to be fair a perfect town victory requires hitting scum twice on two of the three days
and 2 to 4 of those deaths are decided by mafia
one or two of the town deaths will be town shots or votes in a perfect town victory

i do not know why that is on topic or perhaps do not want to elaborate why it is on topic
but we should have some different wagons today
noraa will probably be passed a scroll at some point
i think we should have some more pushes on other people to get some more information out

my personal read on noraa is null
i fully believe that they would behave this way as either alignment
and i expect them to die at some point anyways
at this point any connections that could develop with noraa will likely be calculated

[Theta Alpine]

to restate my read on noraa

i fully expect them to die today
i believe a different wagon will generate better connections between people because i believe it is fairly obvious that noraa will die soon at this point
so i see no reason to continue a wagon on someone when they will almost certainly die today and we can probably get better information somewhere else

[Theta Alpine]

How obvious did you make it
Reading setup you did omit

this verse is hard to read but if ur asking if I read setup, no I did not read any of the OPs

i believe he is asking how obviously you expressed the claim that you did not read the setup of this game

[Theta Alpine]

VOTE: adorable

their vote was likely either a bus or an easy way to get towncred and it would be very interesting to see whether adorable passes the scroll to noraa or not

[Theta Alpine]

in the sense that i believe adorable is likely scum for it - yes

i also do not see a world where you survive today as with an adorable lynch you will almost certainly be either the second or third person to receive the scroll today

[Theta Alpine]

oh wait you voted adorable as well

in my previous post i was referring to adorable voting you and not you voting adorable
your vote on adorable does not really impact my read on adorable
or my read on you for that matter

[Theta Alpine]

Pooky please vote me I have a scum PT with four other players, Nero Cain, and Hectic

hmm im not sure how numbers works, but that looks like your PT only has 3 other players.

a comma is not a colon
that is a continuous list

[Theta Alpine]

nero cain is also the co-mod and not a player

p-edit
guess i missed that order of events

not that it really matters to me
as if anything that is worse for adorable then what i originally thought it was

[Theta Alpine]

that is half of my town games
and i also got dayvigged in a game as town which is almost the same thing

[Theta Alpine]

also the only game i participated in that town won was a game where town absolutely crushed it

p-edit
you are a null read to me
my read on you is more that you will die and be flipped today so i cannot be bothered to form a read on you

[Theta Alpine]

The 2nd curse confirmed town play.

see the thing is
this is exactly why i want to lynch adorable

[Theta Alpine]

in addition to the fact that adorable is prob scum that is

[Theta Alpine]

also wait what

we absolutely want scum to be in the third slot
preferablly with scum also in the first slot
that is how town wins

[Theta Alpine]

Dude, you know I'm gonna die today right?

If we get the vote wrong, and then hand scum the 2nd curse, I die without recourse.

It's not TERRIBLE because yes we killed a scum, but it's the 2nd worst outcome for today minus a miss on all 3.

I want to do Noraa because Noraa has CLAIMED SHE WILL HAND TO ADORABLE.

so if noraa is scum, she will need to do that or if she deviates it will be obvious she is scum, which is a huge advantage to us.

so two things

adorable has more or less stated that they will hand it to noraa so the same argument applies there
and pushing adorable will get more information then continuing to push noraa

[Theta Alpine]

also wait what

we absolutely want scum to be in the third slot
preferablly with scum also in the first slot
that is how town wins

That is the best scenario and also a fucking pipe dream.

And also not my fucking point?

My point was that CONTROLLING AND CONFIRMING who the 2nd curse kills is BAD FOR TOWN because it removes a fucking BOATLOAD of information.

We control the first curse and try to leash that person onto scummy people for the 2nd curse. So if they break the code, we know they're scum.

then the 2nd person becomes confirmed town and leads the town for the third curse, not the other way around

oh yeah i think i see what you mean

if adorable does not pass the scroll to noraa
noraa is still null
having said that who adorable passes the scroll to as scum gives us insight into the alignment of noraa
or i guess who scum is worried about more likely
still i think adorable is the better play here for the lynch

p-edit
noraa could have been coached to do that
especially with the order of events that happened
also you are tunneled on noraa and i really want to force you to do something different

and we can still push adorable now and then go back to noraa later depending on how things work out
but we absolutely need to push someone else because not having other major wagons is denying town a lot of potential information

p-edit
there is a problem with that strategy in this setup which i will not elaborate on
because i do not want to tell mafia how they win this game

[Theta Alpine]

my second p-edit in my previous post was in response to 866 by the way

the nature of how this game works affects how we should play and in this game purposely putting a wagon on people who are not the highest scumread is a valid strategy

[Theta Alpine]

I think the best way to get LLD to do something different is to just be done with Noraa so we can move on with our lives.

i mean i would agree if i did not think that doing that would be heavily antitown

p-edit
because that is not going to happen
i am going to be brutally honest but i expect 100% of scum and 75% of town to just pass the scroll to whoever they want without any discussion

i am going into this game expecting the only discussion will occur for the voting phase

[Theta Alpine]

i also expect that anyone who is highly scum read will likely be passed the scroll
so i see no reason to vote noraa the scroll when we can vote someone else the scroll and noraa still gets it today

[Theta Alpine]

noraa still gets it today

We get the info sooner if we start with Noraa

what info

we only get the info once she flips
which will be at the same time as everyone else who got the scroll

[Theta Alpine]

and who you will shoot.

absolutely not

i thought you agreed that this was a terrible thing to do

[Theta Alpine]

and who you will shoot.

absolutely not

i thought you agreed that this was a terrible thing to do

Her discussing it with us before she dies so we can hold her to it =/= us deciding for her.

How do you not get this?

oh you said something different

telling mafia who we would pass the vote to should probably be secret though for a similar reason to not giving a list of people to pass to

also it is not who noraa passes the scroll to
it is who scum passes the scroll to
if we still hit scum then we get the same amount of information if it was noraa or not

[Theta Alpine]

scroll
telling mafia who we would pass the scroll to should be secret

for the reason that pocketing and a few other common mafia strats are made less viable if we do this

[Theta Alpine]

Give me shit to work with so if you DO flip town, it's information for us.

then give noraa the chance to do it by taking the pressure off of her and starting a wagon on someone else

if noraa is town this gives her the chance to contribute without feeling pressured to defend herself
if noraa is scum she is going to die today regardless

and it gives us the chance to get more interactions with a wagon on someone who is not already doomed

[Theta Alpine]

Give me shit to work with so if you DO flip town, it's information for us.

then give noraa the chance to do it by taking the pressure off of her and starting a wagon on someone else

if noraa is town this gives her the chance to contribute without feeling pressured to defend herself
if noraa is scum she is going to die today regardless

and it gives us the chance to get more interactions with a wagon on someone who is not already doomed

This is an awful idea.

No one else we wagon is gonna feel the slightest bit of pressure. Noraa has a space to talk about her reads now. Why does Noraa need to feel as if she can live to do that?

what do you mean they are not going to feel the pressure
when i say noraa is going to die today i mean she is going to be passed the scroll today regardless of if that is because she was voted it or not
anyone who is voted should absolutely feel pressured because we are going to vote with the intent of passing the scroll to them with that vote

p-edit
also i do not think that town noraa passes the scroll to someone useful in the situation where she is voted the scroll
the highest scum read will almost certainly get passed the scroll
we do not have to vote them because they are doomed
so it is better to vote someone else

[Theta Alpine]

Give me shit to work with so if you DO flip town, it's information for us.

then give noraa the chance to do it by taking the pressure off of her and starting a wagon on someone else

if noraa is town this gives her the chance to contribute without feeling pressured to defend herself
if noraa is scum she is going to die today regardless

and it gives us the chance to get more interactions with a wagon on someone who is not already doomed

This is an awful idea.

No one else we wagon is gonna feel the slightest bit of pressure. Noraa has a space to talk about her reads now. Why does Noraa need to feel as if she can live to do that?

what do you mean they are not going to feel the pressure
when i say noraa is going to die today i mean she is going to be passed the scroll today regardless of if that is because she was voted it or not
anyone who is voted should absolutely feel pressured because we are going to vote with the intent of passing the scroll to them with that vote

p-edit
also i do not think that town noraa passes the scroll to someone useful in the situation where she is voted the scroll
the highest scum read will almost certainly get passed the scroll
we do not have to vote them because they are doomed
so it is better to vote someone else

Tell you what.

The only other person I'm willing to wagon today is you.

Would you prefer this?

yes

it will get us a lot more beneficial information then continuing to wagon noraa

[Theta Alpine]

-snip-

Understand if we do this, I'm killing you.

It's not an "oopsie poopsie" fake wagon where you get a few votes and get to pretend.

I will kill you and you will have no recourse for it. It won't matter you agreed to it. It won't matter how townie you seem.

I will just shove a wagon down your throat and you will die.

Is this preferable?

yes

if i am scum this game it is highly preferable for town to kill me early
if i am town this game it is good to kill me early to prevent me being the lynch at lylo or mylo

and i have already stated or hinted at much of the good strategy for town to do this game so i am not sure if there is much more for me to contribute anyways

[Theta Alpine]

Killing Noraa literally DOES NOT end the conversations we can have. It eliminates the distraction we currently have so that we can work with the information Noraa decides to provide us and work with the second scroll bearer moving forward into the third kill for the flip. I will 100% tell you I am not going back and looking through 30 pages for new content for something else to work with, and if I'm not, I guarantee you there are several others who won't either.

But I may as well be talking to myself.

i mean you say this but i really do not think we will be working with any of the scroll bearers
i do not trust town enough to actually do that

[Theta Alpine]

Killing Noraa literally DOES NOT end the conversations we can have. It eliminates the distraction we currently have so that we can work with the information Noraa decides to provide us and work with the second scroll bearer moving forward into the third kill for the flip. I will 100% tell you I am not going back and looking through 30 pages for new content for something else to work with, and if I'm not, I guarantee you there are several others who won't either.

But I may as well be talking to myself.

okay cool but

seriously just read the iso for adorable
that is either a bus or an attempt to grab free towncred

[Theta Alpine]

noraa why dont you want the scroll?

cuz I don't get to do any solving before I die

that

is an issue you can fix by just trying to solve without worrying about your impending death
ignore lambda
and who besides adorable is suspicious right now

[Theta Alpine]

So, then, eat the scroll so you don't infect your flights of fancy into the better players mentalities, and just do what you're told with the scroll.

so what
would everyone else vote for that

oh wait
we can just do that here and save noraa for the third slot

[Theta Alpine]

Or if you're town, you could reign as Queen Noraa I for 2 days and make people pledge their innocence and stuff.

this idea amuses me greatly

also reminds me of a vault in fallout for some reason

[Theta Alpine]

oh wait
we can just do that here and save noraa for the third slot

So you want Noraa Dead, you just want her dead in slot 3. Theta be scummin'. He's hoping for the T-T-S Scroll pass instead of the potential S-T-S pass is my guess.

i do not want noraa dead
i expect noraa to die

also why would me wanting noraa in slot 3 mean me wanting t-t-s
it could just as easily be me wanting s-t-s

[Theta Alpine]

like if you actually read me reason for wanting a different wagon

it is because we are not going to get valuable information by continuing to wagon noraa
i want a different wagon to maximize the amount of information town gets today

p-edit
yes
also seriously noraa is going to die so what does it matter if she is in slot three
oh wait it does matter
if noraa is in slot three and is scum it denies scum a kill

[Theta Alpine]

so you want to not give the scroll to a scum on the first pass to deny them a kill? thats so backwards lol

no

i want to not give the scroll to the highest scum read so that we get more information
the fact that scum is more likely to be in the third slot is a fortunate side effect of that

[Theta Alpine]

so you want to not give the scroll to a scum on the first pass to deny them a kill? thats so backwards lol

no

i want to not give the scroll to the highest scum read so that we get more information
the fact that scum is more likely to be in the third slot is a fortunate side effect of that

not voting the scroll to the highest scum read player

giving the scroll to your highest scum read when you get the scroll is the thing to do
but i believe it is actually better to not vote the highest scum read player

and seriously do not give the scroll to someone you think is antitown unless that person is also your highest scum read

[Theta Alpine]

noraa

ignore lamdadelta

and answer me two questions
if adorable is scum who else do you think is scum
if adorable is town who do you think is scum

[Theta Alpine]

i mean do not ignore 1027
that is a thing you should not ignore
but just
please leave lambdadelta out of your line of reasoning for those questions

[Theta Alpine]

i step away for an hour and suddenly we are doing my plan

and yeah okay VOTE: tayl0r swift

we can sort hopkirk later and i am less sure about that
i still think adorable is prob scum but that is not going to be a thing we vote for i guess

[Theta Alpine]

i want to hit both of you. but i only get one shot, and lld is a disaster for town, while you just arent a member of town.

this sentence makes no sense.

"I believe LLD is town and Pooky is scum but give me the scroll and I'll take out LLD" yea good joke

anti-town is a thing. you are twisting my words. go away. LLD is actively hurting town more than you. therefore LLD needs to die.

okay for future reference

anyone who says something like this is probably going to earn a vote from me
i might make an exception for talking about killing lurkers but anything else about purposely killing anti-town without the intent of killing scum is going to earn a vote from me

[Theta Alpine]

out of the possible bussers on noraa i think adorable is more likely then hopkirk
but hopkirk is still going to be a scum lean for me at the moment so if people make it clear tayl0r and adorable will not happen i would probably hammer hopkirk

[Theta Alpine]

faking a post restriction would normally be rather scummy in my book but i am fairly sure in this game it is not alignment indicative

they did seem to attempt some discussion on game mechanics which i like

the blank vote on noraa is lean scum for me
i personally think scum would at least try to explain their vote though

they agreed with another players reads without much elaboration which does not sit right with me
but i feel like this early in the game it is excusable

[Theta Alpine]

yeah

i am willing to kill them at the moment but i strongly believe other slots are more likely to be scum

[Theta Alpine]

like seriously how do you expect to get towncred with a blank vote
that does not make sense to me
but maybe they expected town to look for bussers so idk

[Theta Alpine]

adorable and tayl0r are currently more likely to be scum in my mind

adorable has a vote on noraa that feels like a bus
tayl0r is promoting bad gameplay

i do not think i can read isis or you

adorable | gloria | lapsa | vaultdweller | flea are lurking
and that is pretty much the extent of my reads at this stage of the game

i mean i do not like pooky or bell
but i am not entirely sure why at the moment
those are gut reads

p-edit
i like to discourage blank voting so i say it is lean scum
but in this situation i do not understand why scum would do it if that makes sense

[Theta Alpine]

adorable has a vote on noraa that feels like a bus

you see but like this is 100000% preflip analysis :/

i mean i said this before
i just also said it felt like an attempt to push through an easy lynch in the event that you were town

[Theta Alpine]

i mean in the event you are town then not only is it an easy mislynch it is a mislynch that would likely get lambdadelta killed

the fact that the one time i explain my reasoning for adorable but do not include the alternative where you are town you call me out for preflip analysis
that is worrying in my mind

[Theta Alpine]

every other time i have explained my adorable scum read i explained it for both the situation where you are town and the situation where you are scum

i am lazy however and lambdadelta appears to be operating under the assumption that you are scum so i left it out when explaining it to her

but every other time i gave my read for adorable i have included both scenarios and you should have been aware of this

[Theta Alpine]

I think Noraa on third is a bad idea, but Noraa is doomed ANYWAY and I am willing to risk that on Hopkirk being scum.

why do you think this

please explain

[Theta Alpine]

fair enough

i originally thought noraa was town myself but really do not want to figure out a read at this point since she is not going to survive the day
though she keeps doing suspicious things but not enough for me to change my mind on being lazy about my read on her

p-edit
we want scum to have the third scroll more then the first scroll
because we want to limit the number of kills scum gets to make and that is how we do it

[Theta Alpine]

If Noraa is in fact town then we will be able to work with her to achieve a pro-town shot.

what percentage of town do you think would actually work with the rest of town when choosing who to shoot
be honest

[Theta Alpine]

she has already said this is not going to happen if she is town

I have enough respect for Noraa as a player to believe that if town she does not kill someone she thinks is town, regardless of what she is saying right now.

p-edit
we want scum to have the third scroll more then the first scroll
because we want to limit the number of kills scum gets to make and that is how we do it

But we most want scum to have first and third scroll, which allows them to get a kill no matter what order we choose in this phase.

she made an argument that killing lambdadelta was a good idea because their play is anti-town
without an argument that lambdadelta is scum
sooo

and yeah s-t-s is preferable
but that requires scum to have the third scroll so
we are comparing putting our highest scumread first and putting our highest scumread third
and between s-t-t and t-t-s the later is better

[Theta Alpine]

we want scum to have the third scroll more then the first scroll
because we want to limit the number of kills scum gets to make and that is how we do it

This is a fallacy.

We don't intentionally save scum for third and possibly kill two town to get to them. If we think we have scum, we try to get them first AND third. Second slot should in most cases be more likely town than scum.

Trying to play differently is wrong.

i mean i am suggesting we save our highest scum read for third since our highest scum read is a likely choice to give the scroll to anyways
and put our second highest in first

because doing it the other way around which i believe is what you are suggesting is less likely to get scum in the third slot

p-edit
if it is t-s-t then we get scum and we still have a highest scum read to kill the next day

[Theta Alpine]

If scum kill a town intentionally, it means they are scared of them,v which means a killed townie's venge shot is more powerful in the second slot than first or third.

i suppose you might not have noticed

but i suggested that everyone keep their planned venge shots a secret until they get the scroll

so that in the event that this happens
scum is scared of that players public reads which will be public
or their ability to gamesolve which uh
will be pretty much the same situation probably

p-edit
it also means scum is choosing to bus or push on towns second highest scum read and not towns highest scum read which will probably change how they behave
but that is just a side effect and not a good reason to do this strategy by itself

[Theta Alpine]

replying to hopkirk
i slightly lean scum on you
though i have several better targets

VOTE: adorable
i want to get a wagon on this

[Theta Alpine]

hopkirk
almost the entirety of my scum lean on you is that you made a blank vote on a popular wagon
with slight influences from faking a post restriction and the way you agreed with another players reads without elaboration

and honestly the more i thought about the blank vote the less i wanted to kill you because it simply did not make sense for scum to behave that way if noraa is scum
but i am also operating under the assumption that noraa could be town in which case that would be a valid scum lean

so let me just say that i do not think you and noraa are scum together
my scum lean on you is conditional on noraa being town

[Theta Alpine]

replying to hopkirk
i slightly lean scum on you
though i have several better targets

VOTE: adorable
i want to get a wagon on this

why do you lean scum on hopkirk? why are teh other targets better? why a vote on adorable?

hopkirk read is 1176 and elaborated on in 1457
it is a conditional read so i guess that is technically fencesitting
but at this point i would not kill them today
i would want to see what noraa is first

adorable read is 832 and was elaborated on in 1191
tayl0r read is 1169

@Theta and Vaxkiller: 1426 is interested in what you think.

i do not want to read noraa at this point
but strictly speaking
i want to believe noraa is town
but she does suspicious stuff that makes me doubt that is actually the case

[Theta Alpine]

i do not want to read noraa at this point
but strictly speaking
i want to believe noraa is town
but she does suspicious stuff that makes me doubt that is actually the case

Please do?
Or if not, do the suspicious things you see override any desire for her to be town to make you think she is scum?

i mean to actually answer your question

i think the fact that noraa has done a lot of suspicious stuff will get her killed
but i do not know if noraa is scum or not
though i will agree that a certain behavior she exhibited immediately after votes started shifting away from her and the decision was made that she would be in the third slot is very close to a scum claim

[Theta Alpine]

or was that immediately before

i do not actually properly remember how that went down
let me read that part again

[Theta Alpine]

hopkirk
almost the entirety of my scum lean on you is that you made a blank vote on a popular wagon
with slight influences from faking a post restriction and the way you agreed with another players reads without elaboration

and honestly the more i thought about the blank vote the less i wanted to kill you because it simply did not make sense for scum to behave that way if noraa is scum
but i am also operating under the assumption that noraa could be town in which case that would be a valid scum lean

so let me just say that i do not think you and noraa are scum together
my scum lean on you is conditional on noraa being town

The 'I am willing to kill them' really doesn't line up with what came before it or from this imo if it's literally 'they made a blank post' and you thought all of the other stuff was NAI? Are you using 'kill' in a really weak sense, or do you not really care who's first lethaled here? I really don't get your point of view here since as far as I can tell if you're town that's happy to vote me for how I interacted with the wagon then I'd expect to see you looking at the early wagon and potential bussing/avoidance a lot more and I really don't get that from you yet.

i mean i have shifted my vote to adorable twice now because their vote on noraa reads like either a bus or advancing an easy mislynch
also
i specifically said that i would hammer you
it would take near majority of other players voting you for me to actually join in
i was willing to kill you because i believed you to have a better then random chance of being scum then town
but i tried to make it clear that i did not really want your wagon and that other people were much more likely to be scum in my opinion

[Theta Alpine]

VC on this page.

well that quote got messed up somehow

p-edit
i heavily believe scum would not bus with a blank vote the way you did
in my opinion it does not make sense to do that
there is a wifom argument there but i am going to ignore that for now since very little else you had done at that point was scummy in my opinion

[Theta Alpine]

none of my votes so far have been on majority wagons
at the time i would have gone along with it because i do not have a good reason to contest lambdadelta a second time

as for your second question
i used past tense very specifically there
as i developed my read on you it turned into a conditional read for reasons i have already explained

[Theta Alpine]

well that quote got messed up somehow

p-edit
i heavily believe scum would not bus with a blank vote the way you did
in my opinion it does not make sense to do that
there is a wifom argument there but i am going to ignore that for now since very little else you had done at that point was scummy in my opinion

So what's your read on me right now? From your posts at the end of the last page it seems like you're trying to throw shade at me in a 'I'm moving off, but watch your step kiddo' style move. I noted immediately that you didn't express a clear current read on me there and feel like that could be hedging because you want to go with the flow/wait to see if other people now TR and either move back to me or drop it based on whether you can blend with gameflow. This is largely based on what else you've posted giving me the 'go with the flow' impression, including what you just said about would hammer.

if my read on you is not currently clear

i have a scum lean on you that is conditional on noraa being town
otherwise you are null

i have also stated that i will not support a wagon on you today as i want to see noraa flip first

and at every point i talked about you i think i made it clear that there were better targets

p-edit
because a blank vote on a popular wagon that ends up being a mislynch is more likely to be a scum vote
perhaps i should say that when i say scum lean i mean you are literally a single step away from null in that situation
if noraa is town there is still a much more likely candidate in adorable in my opinion

[Theta Alpine]

So literally because I blank voted on the wagon? I'm going to want to know why you haven't given thoughts on a lot of questionable posting around that wagon from low activity posters. I'll give you a list if you can't work it out yourself, but I'd prefer to see what you come up with as part of the utility of this.

because i have already found the most likely one in my opinion
though to be fair it is the most likely candidate balanced between scenarios where noraa is scum and scenarios where noraa is town

[Theta Alpine]

because a blank vote on a popular wagon that ends up being a mislynch is more likely to be a scum vote

Do you often find this to be the case?

do you mean have i actually kept a record of when this is the case or not
because the answer to that is no
but it is behavior that i think scum would do
to be perfectly honest this might be more me discouraging a behavior i do not think is beneficial for town as opposed to actually scum reading it


i am actually going to analyze the noraa wagon again and post my findings on that later

[Theta Alpine]

because a blank vote on a popular wagon that ends up being a mislynch is more likely to be a scum vote

Do you often find this to be the case?

do you mean have i actually kept a record of when this is the case or not
because the answer to that is no
but it is behavior that i think scum would do
to be perfectly honest this might be more me discouraging a behavior i do not think is beneficial for town as opposed to actually scum reading it


i am actually going to analyze the noraa wagon again and post my findings on that later

No, I would not expect anyone to spend hours of time collecting data, but rather do you just believe it to be true, which you do indicate above.

I would think it would be a more case by case basis or person by person basis. I think some scum players would be afraid of a naked vote, and would want to explain it away.

fair enough

i think my read on hopkirk could have been best described as
if at least 5 other town players think hopkirk is scum i will join in because i do not see anything particularly townie enough to object to it
which is what i meant when i said i would hammer it if it got that far

but seriously i am going to go ahead and analyze the noraa wagon and then post my findings because continuing this topic is not really going to do as much as doing that

[Theta Alpine]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already...
Theta you're

real

keen to see the Nora Flip, there's been enough mechanics talk for you to know 3 flip at once, that in mind, who else would you see flip today?


@Hectic - Hey you invited me here!

well if you had actually read what i have posted
you would now that i am not that keen to see noraa flip
more that i see it as an inevitability
i did protest voting noraa the scroll for a few reasons which are in my iso

and currently i want to vote adorable the scroll
or maybe tayl0r as well

i will be reading the noraa wagon again to see what more i can figure out from it

[Theta Alpine]

well me reading the noraa wagon turned into me reading the game again and giving commentary so uh

give me a bit and i will have a few posts with effectively my thoughts as i read the game
which would probably be smaller then reading the game again yourself

[Theta Alpine]

okay then

i am going to stop at 254 for now and post what i have because i seriously want adorable and noraa dead now

i would make this have post links but i cannot really be bothered except for the last one which is what changed my mind on reading noraa

which i am going to pull outside of the spoiler actually
if you want to read my thoughts when rereading the early game then it is in the spoiler

Spoiler:

unowen had a rvs vote on noraa that did not change and still has not changed
708 claimes to have a prior scum read on noraa but this is not clearly expressed in previous posts except possibly 298

i do not think unowen and adorable are scum together due to 298 and 1201
unowen and tayl0r could be scum together due to 1231 but this is not a strong opinion
i can see unowen being scum regardless of noraa being scum
but because of how their vote was placed i would not base my read on unowen based off of their vote on noraa


i do not think i can read lambdadelta
nor do i think i can accurately divine the reasons for any of her votes


at this point i switched from reading an iso to just reading through the game again


hopkirk had a blank vote that does not appear to be in response to anything
this is definitely only a bus if it was premeditated though in my opinion
unless it was intended as an rvs vote on a partner maybe
it is still early enough that the game felt like it could be rvs


murdercat puts a vote on noraa that appears to be in resonse to noraa flailing
this does not appear to be an rvs vote

completely off topic here but toogeloo sows the seeds of shooting anti-town and not scum in 116

pooky accuses noraa of being coached right after noraa states a town block of noraa | pooky | tayl0r
probably not in response though since those posts are a minute apart
though a hilarious thought i had is if pooky was coaching noraa here
but other then that i think if noraa is scum then pooky is probably town
depending on when her partners realized noraa is probably dying here

125 somewhere around this point in a noraa scum world her partners have probably realized it is best to let her die here

139 bell tries to shade lambdadelta here
144 pooky notices that

i am willing to say just off of that that if lambdadelta is town then bell is probably scum
because scum is absolutely going to try and get a mislynch on lambdadelta if they can
and it is early enough that this could be forgotten

149 i do like this response though

151 i could see lambdadelta and pooky being scum together though
but this could also be pooky scum and lambdadelta town for all i know
or both could be town

175 if bell is scum i would think one of these is a scum buddy
180 i am guessing pooky had the same thought and thus assumed tayl0r was scum

187 i think i may have to just admit that i probably cannot read tayl0r either
which is why my read on her is for her promoting anti-town play

190 this could be shading the people on the noraa wagon at the moment
in a world where tayl0r is scum this probably means lambdadelta hopkirk and murdercat are town

202 wait i thought bell was saying noraa was town
but the reason bell townreads murdercat here is because of the reasons murdercat states for voting noraa

i looked back and 161 is the only thing from bell that could have been construed as a townread
so i am not sure why i thought that

208 what is this even saying
if noraa is scum i really want to flip tayl0r

216 more shade thrown at lambdadelta by tayl0r this time
219 i do agree with this though

229 it has been 50 pages into the game from this and the majority wagon is still on noraa

244 adorable setting up a vote on noraa and throwing shade at tayl0r

249 oh hopkirk actually does express a scumread on noraa here

251 tayl0r
i thought you were defending noraa

254 this feels like it was premeditated
i mean seriously it feels like this exchange between noraa and adorable was planned out ahead of time
why is a self-proclaimed newbie attacking adorable and effectively daring them to vote themselves
and not attacking hopkirk who had placed a blank vote
or unowen who had an rvs vote

[Theta Alpine]

looks up to my previous post

well i guess i did not technically use the words that i thought noraa was scum in that post

but i think i very much said that i think noraa is scum in that post

[Theta Alpine]

i would want to see what noraa is first

i have also stated that i will not support a wagon on you today as i want to see noraa flip first

Sounds keen to me.

also

how do either of these mean i am keen on killing hopkirk today
they very much mean the opposite

[Theta Alpine]

i would want to see what noraa is first

i have also stated that i will not support a wagon on you today as i want to see noraa flip first

Sounds keen to me.

also

how do either of these mean i am keen on killing hopkirk today
they very much mean the opposite

ah

i think i may have misremembered what your original question was

my original explanation of previously operating under the assumption that noraa will die today regardless of what i think about it still applies
though i suppose as of 1525 i am rather eager to see both adorable and noraa flip

[Theta Alpine]

VOTE: Noraa

we are not voting noraa

we are simply all agreeing that she is probably scum and will be handed the scroll at some point

who else do you think is scum

p-edit
we do not talk about the actual replacement as a way to read people
as in the act of replacing out
not the person who is the replacement

why did i explain the joke

[Theta Alpine]

does anyone else feel like alpine's reads are pretty artificial?

for example he says "ever since this post i guess i scumread noraa"
a townie would say "ever since rereading i scumread noraa"

she

and there is no guessing at this point

i do not doubt my read on noraa at this point in any way

i am not going to contest it reading like it is artificial because yeah it does read like it is artificial
i wonder why i am usually mislynch bait as town

[Theta Alpine]

i mean i actually do not really know why i am mislynch bait as town
that is just one of my guesses

[Theta Alpine]

wow i waited so long to do this

but being asked to confirm that scum have daytalk is in the sample town rolecard
so knowing that is not a town slip

as for vaxkiller
let me dig into my iso and grab where i explained it
actually let me just summarize it
we want scum in the third slot more than we want scum in the first slot so we save our highest scum read for that
t-s-t is arguably bad but at the first slot being town we have already missed the chance to kill two scum so it is not terrible
at least not bad enough to suggest killing a town player on purpose to get t-t-s instead

[Theta Alpine]

t-s-t is arguably bad but at the first slot being town we have already missed the chance to kill two scum so it is not terrible

I think odds of S>T>S go up if we shoot the sure scum first, get an effectively confirmed townie, and use that info the guide 3rd shot.

in theory yes

but we do not get the flips until the scroll has been passed twice
and negating a scum kill is more important then trying to use the first kill to guess what the alignment of the first player is and who we should pass the scroll to because of that

besides if we're this sure about someone being scum it probably will not make a difference in who we vote first in terms of being able to sort people when passing the scroll

[Theta Alpine]

Like I get where you and LLD and others are coming from, I just don't have that confidence in our ability to go S>T>S when we start with someone who is maybe scum

well how about we try it today and see how it works

then we can evaluate how well it worked and decide future strategy accordingly

[Theta Alpine]

because you said in the postgame here:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12236870

that you fake townslips as scum, and

Isis are you allowed to tell us how many scum there are?

looks like a faked townslip.

I don't really believe you didn't read the first page of the setup and dont know how many scum there are.

I want to vote Noraa after that, but I don't want to end the day. I'm not a big fan of meta usually but when it's self prescribed then...

and that is why we are voting for who else we think is scum
to get more info

the majority of people here think noraa is scum so she will die at some point by being venge-killed
so now we vote other people and see what else we can find

p-edit
no that is not how it works
that person gets a 2 day deadline to pass the scroll

[Theta Alpine]

I want to vote Noraa after that, but I don't want to end the day.

It is worth noting that we keep all the time left on the deadline when we pass a scroll. We just add 2 days to it

that is what the dayvig shot that mafia has does

[Theta Alpine]

noraa has stated that she thinks lambdadelta is town

noraa has also stated that she would kill lambdadelta for acting in a way noraa thinks is anti-town

[Theta Alpine]

the alleged scum slip is the reaction noraa had to the possibility of being the third person with a scroll
which as has been stated before would deny scum the ability to choose someone to kill if scum is in that slot

[Theta Alpine]

- pov with the confirmation of daytalk is a maybe townslip, because they know town was supposed to confirm daytalk

as i mentioned earlier

the sample town rolecard actually lists what town is supposed to confirm
and i would assume also what mafia is supposed to confirm considering what it asks

[Theta Alpine]

p-edit no we are not having a misunderstanding, I agree with the contents of that post

So you think that:
- Theta dropped a town tell by sharing info about town role PM that mafia may not know
- That Isis town read Theta solely because they picked up on this
- That a town player would pick up on these two things and think that suggests mafia did not know about the day-talk confirmation request and therefore conclude that Isis and Theta are town.
- That specifically I would make these connections and therefore not even be slightly suspicious of Isis

that was not a town tell
the only reason i would even talk about it was because it was public information

[Theta Alpine]

I think your reaction to it being talked about is a town tell though.

fair enough

p-edit
ooh i really like that list from hopkirk
but i also really think adorable is scum for reasons i have mentioned and other people have elaborated on

[Theta Alpine]

ooh i really like that list from hopkirk

Bell you're inconsistent simply because making TRs is not equaling to pocketing. If you want to call everyone that TRs hopkirk as scum, SR this.

what
how does liking a list someone makes equate to me townreading them

[Theta Alpine]

-snip-

Noraa got defensive and her vote on me looked scum agenda which looked like she tried to shift the votes off of her and tried to redirect the votes on town and in this setup I would expect scum would want to avoid being given the scroll. Noraa voted me first and why would scum Noraa try to push an elimination on a scum buddy when their goal is to eliminate town?

except noraa did not push you very much
if at all

she did not try to get anyone else to vote you

someone else said this before
i forgot who though

[Theta Alpine]

Adorable and Noraa scumbuddies? That's a corker of a bus if that's the case. Shelly is implicated in this quite heavily and is someone I need to read over anyway.

No Adorable is town

this is a really random misrep

are you accusing flea of misrep here

[Theta Alpine]

Theta I accused you of lurking when under pressure. what do you say to that?

it is the weekend

also what pressure

[Theta Alpine]

i am caught up

i did not notice anything about me though

well i noticed adorable completely missing the fact that i pushed noraa and adorable as scum buddies
is that what you were talking about

[Theta Alpine]

Theta: I remember you changed me to a SR basically out of pressure. Ik you won't admit it but I do believe you thought I was a null. I def think you felt pressured to change me to a SR. At the time I felt the switch was super duper unnatural but ngl I sometimes change my reads when I believe town with attack me for them. I will continue to believe my own read ... obviously and if I am a vig, I will go thru with killing my SRs whether or not town agrees with these SRs but I definitely sometimes compromise where I think necessary. I doubt I will compromise much after this game tho bc I finally understand how it feels to see so many people basically get pressured into compromising on you. The feeling of getting tunneled *shudders*
I thought in my last town game I was tunneled hard. Nah BM tunnels are nothing compared to LLD tunnels.
These two games are shockingly similar actually. I got to E-2 in one rl day and got pretty mad ngl. I actually tunneled BM hard in So many bats out of anger from Random facts :/
I also ended up vigging BM in Random facts. *sigh* ....he was a mailman cop

oh you were talking about that
i mean one person is not really pressure in my opinion

why would i not admit that i had thought you were null
i am pretty sure i had stated that or something similar
actually i am pretty sure that i previously said i hoped you were town but that you kept doing suspicious things
which is either a town or null read i think

now this is close to self-meta
but i would not change my read on someone simply because i was pressured to do so
as either town or scum
i honestly am a bit too stubborn to acquiesce to other people like that
even if that gets me lynched

i changed my read on you because i was rereading the early game to get better reads on your wagon
and noticed that the interactions between you and adorable strongly felt like scum theater

p-edit
what even just happened while i was writing to this

ml is mislynch

[Theta Alpine]

Adorable and Noraa scumbuddies? That's a corker of a bus if that's the case. Shelly is implicated in this quite heavily and is someone I need to read over anyway.

No Adorable is town

this is a really random misrep

are you accusing flea of misrep here

shelly please respond to this

[Theta Alpine]

Adorable and Noraa scumbuddies? That's a corker of a bus if that's the case. Shelly is implicated in this quite heavily and is someone I need to read over anyway.

No Adorable is town

this is a really random misrep

are you accusing flea of misrep here

shelly please respond to this

Yeeeeeah

you do realize that post is flea saying that unowen thinks adorable and noraa are scumbuddies
which is what 1201 seems to say

so it is rather ironic that you accusing flea of misrep
is itself misrepresenting what flea said

[Theta Alpine]

what is town about panda

he doesn't care about dying

i mean

i do not care about dying

i would not self vote though


if i remember correctly the first time someone self-voted in this game it was noraa
and then everyone decided to save her for later

i think tayl0r also self-voted which brought pressure off of her sort of
because tayl0r is herself and would totally do that as either alignment apparently

so it is somewhat established at this point that self-voting redirects the wagon elsewhere


which is why we now break the pattern so that scum cannot abuse it
also toog is just generally suspicious
and it looks like we are not getting a adorable lynch this late into the day anyways
VOTE: toogeloo

[Theta Alpine]

if i remember correctly the first time someone self-voted in this game it was noraa

huh?

nevermind then

checking your iso you did not self vote

i probably should not make posts when i am not entirely awake

[Theta Alpine]

vla

due to power outage

[Theta Alpine]

why are we doing this

when i am pretty sure it was made clear that it is extremely beneficial for scum to have this information

[Theta Alpine]

if you were asking for the top five slots that people think are scum
i would be fine with that

a list of people that people want to give the scroll to is not fine with me

[Theta Alpine]

i do not think that is a good idea and i am willing to take the scroll because of it

[Theta Alpine]

the names of people you would give a scroll to

that lets scum semi-control two kills

[Theta Alpine]

her

and you are absolutely right in that i am not even trying to hide my scuminess
because i cannot
even as town i cannot hide my scuminess

[Theta Alpine]

i think i actually have stable power now
so maybe i can pay more attention to the game

[Theta Alpine]

why did that happen
why did vax and hopkirk die

VOTE: adorable

same reasons as before
though honestly i could also go for noraa

[Theta Alpine]

why did that happen
why did vax and hopkirk die

VOTE: adorable

same reasons as before
though honestly i could also go for noraa

do you not know like... the basics of the setup at this point?

i know the setup

why were they given the scroll

[Theta Alpine]

my read on isis was that i could not read isis
i do not remember what read i gave vaxkiller if any
but it definitely was not a slot that should have been killed

my read on hopkirk was that i could not see noraa and hopkirk being scum together
and thus after i changed my read on noraa to a scum read that would imply my read on hopkirk became a town read
even if i never explicitly mentioned it

[Theta Alpine]

I had a post mostly written, got distracted by ordering food, and hit F5 AS I NOTICED THE TEXT IN THE REPLY BOX AAAAAAAA.

So let me summarize:
UNOwen, I only give a fuck about how Theta read Toog.
Tayl0r and UNOwen, if you can dredge up Theta's Toog reads from early in the game and from just before the Toog push, I'd be appreciative because I'm still recovering from what happened to me last night and cannot be assed thread-diving yet.
Flea, I hate something about how you're playing right here, please give me a megapost on your reads.
Thank god there were only 2 or 3 pages to catch up with and no shitposts among them. Let's keep it up, my enthusiasm is returning slowly.
Anyone seen Fidget? Anyone at all?

i was somewhat suspicious of toog throughout the game
but not enough to vote them until we got close to deadline

[Theta Alpine]

i do not really see the case on fredrick myself

[Theta Alpine]

i am perfectly fine with adorable being handed the scroll

[Theta Alpine]

hold on was fred actually scum

the way that went down i would think his buddies will be trying to get someone other then adorable killed

though honestly lambdadelta
you can kill someone else if you want
we can just vote adorable the scroll tomorrow
i just think adorable is nearly guaranteed to be scum at this point

[Theta Alpine]

well

for the reasons i stated day 1
and now even more because this feels like scum theatre between adorable and fred
and a way to get adorable into the town block

[Theta Alpine]

i am very confident

which to be perfectly honest
given my past history with reads
probably means i am wrong here

[Theta Alpine]

i am very confident

which to be perfectly honest
given my past history with reads
probably means i am wrong here

This is also worrying me a little bit given Theta has been tunneling Adorable probably the entire length of the game and yet is hedging her bets at the end.

i mean

i am still very confident in adorable being scum
mentioning that the reads i am this confident in are usually not correct might be seen as hedging my bets
but please do not read it as me saying i think adorable might be town
because i do not think that at the moment

that is to say that this time i think this read is an exception to that pattern
i am just saying that to let town know that in the past this amount of conviction tends to mean i am wrong
even if i do not actually think i am wrong in this case

this is just something i have observed in past games and i feel it is a good idea to let the rest of town now that that pattern exists

though now that we hopefully caught scum then i can probably stop tunneling on adorable after the next flips and look for other possibilities
adorable will remain in lock-scum on my reads indefinitely though
i honestly do not know what would convince me otherwise at this point

[Theta Alpine]

Theta /looks scummy/ but has no meaningful associatives, which I feel are way stronger for identifying scum. So I'd save Theta for later.

and this is why i win my scum games

i would expect the list fred made to have one buddy on it
but who even knows


figure out who fred did not interact with

then look at those people and see which ones did not interact with each other
the strategy i mentioned that heavily tilts the game in scums favor is forming minimal associatives with other buddies

p-edit
i actually flip green here
and i am also perfectly fine with flipping here instead of later in the game where it gives scum the game
i kind of doubt lambdadelta will be back soon enough to change her vote
but i guess we will see

[Theta Alpine]

i will go ahead and make a reads list then

and honestly since fred has more or less claimed scum i can look at the game again using that information

[Theta Alpine]

wait fred was zdenek

that feels important
now i just need to remember why

[Theta Alpine]

I've read up to page 6, and skimmed the more recent stuff.

Unvote

Consider my vote on Noraa.

Ok I still haven't read but I have a question that I want answered by the time I do, should we change how we lim? Like if there is someone who people townlean but we know they have a strong scum game are we more likely to vote them in this setup?

Can I ask what led you to this? I'm curious because it came up in the thread and it makes me question whether you've read or not.

I'm inclined to agree that Noraa's town-slip looks faked, and the meta argument for why it is scummy seems good to me.

what even is this considering zdenek is scum

My top three scum reads are Noraa, Owen and Bell.

What's this all about?

Ah yes, I knew that my vote against Noraa would lead to good things.
The wagon looks promising, Noraa's reaction to the pressure has indeed been flaily.
Adorable's vote was not great.

and then explaining why he quoted these

@Zdenek - But what's it all about?

Laziness, and bolstering and attacking the wagon on Noraa in the same post.

fred may not have an interaction with adorable
but zdenek does

this interaction also leads me to believe unowen is town
and supports my thoughts that adorable is scum

[Theta Alpine]

Spoiler:

I've read up to page 6, and skimmed the more recent stuff.

Unvote

Consider my vote on Noraa.

Ok I still haven't read but I have a question that I want answered by the time I do, should we change how we lim? Like if there is someone who people townlean but we know they have a strong scum game are we more likely to vote them in this setup?

Can I ask what led you to this? I'm curious because it came up in the thread and it makes me question whether you've read or not.

I'm inclined to agree that Noraa's town-slip looks faked, and the meta argument for why it is scummy seems good to me.

what even is this considering zdenek is scum

My top three scum reads are Noraa, Owen and Bell.

What's this all about?

Ah yes, I knew that my vote against Noraa would lead to good things.
The wagon looks promising, Noraa's reaction to the pressure has indeed been flaily.
Adorable's vote was not great.

and then explaining why he quoted these

@Zdenek - But what's it all about?

Laziness, and bolstering and attacking the wagon on Noraa in the same post.

fred may not have an interaction with adorable
but zdenek does

this interaction also leads me to believe unowen is town
and supports my thoughts that adorable is scum

Can you explain this? I understand your UNOwen!town read but not your Adorable sr based on this?

zdenek was defending adorable by attacking unowen

i suppose there are other explanations for that though

[Theta Alpine]

really do not think lambdadelta will get here soon enough
or for that matter change her mind if she does get back
so i will abandon my traditional self placement of null since i will flip pretty soon

conf town
toogeloo
hopkirk
vaxkiller
lambdadelta
theta - soon enough

prob town
unowen
pooky
titus

null
noraa
gloria
bell
mush
murdercat
fidget

lean scum
tayl0r
shellyc
flea
lapsa

prob scum
adorable

conf scum
fred

[Theta Alpine]

lapsa

Didnt this lurker rep out? Also who was the replacement?

i was just going off of the alive list

i do not remember if they got replaced

[Theta Alpine]

yay i actually have a second town win

surprisingly my reads were actually pretty good this game
except for my reads on adorable and titus

and as i said in the dead thread noraa played an absolutely amazing scum game here

[Theta Alpine]

I've edited it out as a "bbcode error", after discussing it with a listmod.

I'd have taken it
A good decision I think though

oh

so that is how you managed to do that shelly

i did see that and was like
how did you manage to mess up a quote that badly

i did not realize it was because it was a quote from a pt
i thought it was just an issue with multiquotes or something

[Theta Alpine]

i mean the scroll is a venge-kill so it would have to be resolved before you get to a voting phase
which is where the consideration for if scum automatically win occurs


it is best to use the dayvig early or not at all

[Theta Alpine]

yeah you kind of need more then one scum alive at the end

or to be the deepwolf that no one suspects
which you were very close to being

[Theta Alpine]

At the risk of interrupting Noraa, what did you think of how the setup played out Hectic? In theory, would you make any changes if you ran it again?
I thought I agreed with Isis that it might be a bit town sided. But the power of getting a wolf into the town block is evident.
Maybe the dayvig is actually a bit hard to use in practice?

I think it's a little townsided. It's too close to nightless and scum on average only get 2.66 nightkills (4 deaths * 2/3 chance to be first in first two passes). The vig sounds nice in theory, but if you use it super early to snipe an obvtown leader, you make it twice as difficult for 1 scum to win all the way down the line in final 5 (which turns into 4).

I think an adjustment in having scrolled players immediately treestumped, but only removed from the game and flipped upon the 3rd pass is good. It means scum win with parity slightly earlier in situations, and makes the dayvig a lot more versatile.

that is effectively what is already happening though i think

mechanically the scroll is a public vengekill by a treestumped player
if scum achieve parity but a vengekill by town still needs to be resolved
then scum do not automatically win then and there because they can still lose that parity due to the vengekill
the vengekill still needs to be resolved

[Theta Alpine]

actually

giving town more players but giving scum an additional factional dayvig each time they die might help with that balance

[Theta Alpine]

each time a scum player dies that is

[Theta Alpine]

At the risk of interrupting Noraa, what did you think of how the setup played out Hectic? In theory, would you make any changes if you ran it again?
I thought I agreed with Isis that it might be a bit town sided. But the power of getting a wolf into the town block is evident.
Maybe the dayvig is actually a bit hard to use in practice?

I think it's a little townsided. It's too close to nightless and scum on average only get 2.66 nightkills (4 deaths * 2/3 chance to be first in first two passes). The vig sounds nice in theory, but if you use it super early to snipe an obvtown leader, you make it twice as difficult for 1 scum to win all the way down the line in final 5 (which turns into 4).

I think an adjustment in having scrolled players immediately treestumped, but only removed from the game and flipped upon the 3rd pass is good. It means scum win with parity slightly earlier in situations, and makes the dayvig a lot more versatile.

that is effectively what is already happening though i think

mechanically the scroll is a public vengekill by a treestumped player
if scum achieve parity but a vengekill by town still needs to be resolved
then scum do not automatically win then and there because they can still lose that parity due to the vengekill
the vengekill still needs to be resolved

No because they were still technically considered to be alive until flip. Treestumped means they can still post but they are already dead pre-flip, so huge difference imo.

there is not a difference though
scum only automatically win if there is no way for them to lose short of purposefully throwing
in a situation where they have parity but a vengekill by town still needs to be resolved
then they can still lose if the vengekill hits scum

[Theta Alpine]

I'd love to see a Bell post-mortem on me.


Also! I think Theta might be on to something in adding, say, 3 townies, but every red flip gives the scumteam another dayvig. Good for flavor, too. I think it ends up making the setup even swingier in the end though, where right now it's townsided but otherwise fairly stable mechanically.

Thinking on other solutions, I see room to adjust rules of scroll passing to more strongly empower early players in the scroll-passing order. Maybe I'll find you on Discord, Hectic, and talk at you about my setup ideas, and we can see what happens. PM me if you're up for that discussion -- my game design history is in videogames, but I think we could figure something out.

the point was definitely to make it more swingy

it also gives scum several different strategies they could use regarding the dayvig
and the ability to feel like they can actually use the dayvig before the end hopefully
it might need a maximum cap on the number of dayvigs they can hold at once just to prevent it from being too swingy but i would need to go through the various scenarios quite a bit to figure out if that would be necessary