Death Curse

[Fidget]

Hey everybody!

I felt like this was a bit townsided when I reviewed it but I let it pass anyways. We're good if we just don't throw. VOTE: Fidget for hammering the game before I could /out. Pooky dragged me into this game.

There will probably be pedits and I won't read them

Gotem

VOTE: Pooky

[Fidget]

My understanding is that scum get one day vig you can’t shoot a scroll holder.
We get three flips at once.
That occur over a 7 day voting phase.
Then 2 baton passes for an additional 6 days of content.
3 flips repeat.

No scum NK?

You have a pretty good understanding of the setup, up until the part where you question whether or not scum has a NK. What is your intention behind the last line?

[Fidget]

FIRST

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

also in the event that we hit scum first, we should still do our darndest to hit scum on the second shot. i think its a bad play to hit town on purpose.

I was gonna vote myself coming into the game if I rolled scum as a WIFOM tactic

Isis are you allowed to tell us how many scum there are?

...

[Fidget]

I trust that Noraa received several votes for that? So I'll hold off for a moment.

UNVOTE:

Ok let's clarify something rq. I asked Cabd to bring me along to spectate the next game he was going to spectate. He said he was gonna spectate this game and that I was in it already. I was at the time, not even aware of this games existence. I checked out this game and saw it was modded by hectic and was like ooooo sounds fun! so then I directly inned. I don't read setup. Everyone says that I town slip as scum. So to be completely honest, a lot of the "townslips" aren't even town slips for me cuz I legitimately don't pay attention to the OPs. Pooky since you referenced Mafiasunny, I was a mafia goon that game and I legitimately asked my partners in the pt if there were town prs. Dumb question ig you could say and considering my partners were voyeur and Roleblocker, it should've been pretty obvious there were prs. I didn't read any of the setup in that game either and submitted actions in the pt when the mod directly said you had to pm him. I literally do not read OPs of games with setups I've never played in before(that was my first mini theme). I want to reference two different games as well but they're ongoing so I can't but regardless I only skim OPs and sometimes I dont even do that. In this case, I did not read anything believe it or not.

I do not understand. Why did you feel the need to ask how many scum are in the setup rather than looking? If you thought this setup was closed, why would one of the designers/reviewers (Isis) play it?

I am playing with the idea you're just easy elimbait, but what an odd question to ask.

[Fidget]

I should get an award for always being the biggest wagon d1 as town. normally I can draw out some scums by getting a huge wagon. the problem is that the argument somewhat makes sense. like I could see myself agreeing with that argument. I think anyone that's played with me would know I am like this as town which is +townpoints for Taylor. I would argue its - town points for murder since he has played a town game with me before and he has meta dived my scum games before. Besides the people that I have played with's reads on me atm, I can't be certain of the rest. I'm not excited about dying day 1 but I have a feeling I will be able to bring at least one scum down with me.
Ftr, I think Taylor is town for realizing that this isnt AI
I think Murder could be scum bc he has played with me before and I expect him to know its not AI
I think Pooky is actually probably town bc he truly thought he found something and I absolutely believe he believes in it
I am null on Lexi though I am a little salty you would use a discord server and my being excited to be in a game hectic modded against me this way. I could see it as opportunistic scum tho I'm not certain of it.
All the other votes were just plain vote tags or I missed them and I'm not entirely sure what to make of them yet.

I fail to see how this play differentiates you as town. At best you could argue it's NAI, but this is absolutely something you would do as scum. Why would someone who has played with you before just know you are town?

Pedit: Evidently she is!

[Fidget]

Bell are you coaching Noraa in the scum PT you sly dog you? :3

Noraa responds to pressure with large blocks of text naturally, I'm pretty sure.

Man this post is bad. Like any doubt I had when I began to apply this pressure has evaporated.

Like anyone who is thinking of joining this wagon and going "gee I dunno guys, that reason why the wagon started was a little weak"

Read this post and just assess the calculated nature of what has been done here. Noraa isn't responding on actual reads or attempting to sort what has happened to her.

She's attempting to brush it aside and create a group of allies to prevent her from dying.

Calling MurderCat scum here is the height of the problem, given Murdercat was the complete towniest entry to the wagon given how bad post 104 was from Noraa.

This is scum flailing to get out from under a wagon, please kill them.

It really probably is just as simple as this.

pedit:

because she's trying to get town-read off a townslip

Pedit: Evidently she is!

[Fidget]

I like Bell's tone, but pointing that out ruins the Noraa coaching/bussing joke so I'll shelve that for later.

Taylor - town for realizing that this isn't AI due to previous experience playing with me
Murder - null bc he didn't realize it wasn't AI even tho he has played with me before but the paranoia towards shelly is very town bc when playing with shelly, it is nerve-racking trying to determine if you're being absolutely fooled or if you are judging too much and she's actually town. I feel this paranoia all the way after one scum game with her where she told me about all her evil plans in the scum pt and after one town game where I was fooled by her big time. Something that town pings + something that scum pings cancel out and so I am null but prolly town lean still.
Pooky - town because I believe he believes in his SR on me and scum wouldn't bc scum knows who their scum buddies are.
Lexi - null. I still dislike the discord argument. Lexi's been more eager to push me than Pooky has which tbh is a bit strange considering normally the one that starts it is the biggest on pushing it :/
Isis - town because the tone is towny and I relate to some of those posts in that I would say something similar in her position
Bell - townie confusion. could be faked but I'm willing to believe it is real for now
Shelly - scum for misrepping people and also for throwing shade at pooky yet never voting pooky.
Vaultdweller - scum. can't quite put my finger on what's wrong here but I'm def getting scum pings.
Hopkirk - null but lean scum. dislike the jumping on all biggest wagons for no reason.

You

really

don't want to die, do you?

[Fidget]

Taylor plays exactly like this as town. Hold up let me go find the link.

I think Taylor has gotten more confident and comfortable with doing whatever since this game but regardless, you can still see it in here:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Gonna preemptively say Tayl0r's town for this. I have no idea what Noraa is pointing out that she is pretending makes her so sure but whatevers.

[Fidget]

im super duper concerned at the number of people who have decided to push noraa as scum this early, and dont trust them either.

I entertained this for a whole 15 seconds, and then I saw Noraa suddenly go into mega defensive/tryhard mode.

yeah im pretty sure ive seen town noraa react exactly this way. i dont townread noraa, but i dont think this is helpful in sorting noraa and i think itll be reasonably easy to sort noraa later.

Serious bummer if true.

I was wondering how long it would take you to flip your "null, hmmm I dunno if LLD, is she scum? hmmmmmmmm" into trying to oppose me like this.

This was the sentence I was referring to when I said you were being defensive. Perhaps defensive isnt the right word. I think you are actively discrediting what I say.

Okay, time to bury you. Here is where you made your mistake, calling this "discrediting". (Another buzzword, btw.)

One second.

Noraa butchers buzzwords pretty much consistently, as does shelly.

I still find the walls of text and flailing scummy. Unfortunately there is a chance Noraa does that as town. I have not seen Noraa do the thing I associate with her town play yet, though.

[Fidget]

So, here we go.

Evidence of Noraa's hemming and hawing on me.

Calling me Null but constantly looking for a way to scumread me that can be deemed as valid, because she's afraid to fabricate a reason and have it be torn down, in my opinion.

But even if you think that assessment of her behaviour is wrong, her behaviour is clear as day.

Here is the evidence.

this stuff is NOT AI for noraa.

If I were scum opposing a town!Noraa, I'd probably just take my choice at the infinite ways she can be attacked and go from there. However since I'm not, I have to acknowledge you're right, this is very much how Noraa plays. I get your concern better.

The huge reads list after coming pressure and the huge volume of her posts after the pressure still comes across as really scummy to me.

[Fidget]

Theres a thing called luck. Luck played in big time that game. My partner accidentally nokilled and that ultimately lead to our victory. Without that along with another player's lurking due to rl, you really think I could've won that game?

Noraa not taking credit for a win looks bad to me

Agree. It feels made up to support her "I'm just a imcompetent newbtown" argument.

You can probably townbloc Murdercat, Lamb, Pooky at this point. I trust whoever it was knows Murdercat well enough to locktown him, and I agree with his posts. My spicy read is Bell!town actually. Call it gut for now but you'll see.

Tayl0r, I do actually get her concerns. However, I did not like her "It would be stupid of me to defend Noraa as scum here" post. I think she probably would.

[Fidget]

I think i’m Going to miss the chance to bus but i’m With you in spirit.

I don’t think i’m particularly spicy of a town read fidget.
I disagree on pooky read. Agree on the other two.

I don't know if they were being serious about you as a Noraa partner or not :<

nah i think its a bad wagon, but this whole time ive been saying theres probably a better than random chance noraa flips scum, just not enough of a chance that she deserved the pressure shes under. its whatever, but its kinda dumb.

So in other words, it's a good wagon.

I think I understand your meaning. There is a disproportionate amount of pressure when compared to the offense committed, is that what you mean? To that I say, yes you are right, but so are most wagons on day one.

[Fidget]

I am curious what would qualify as a good wagon to Tayl0r rn. Or if there are no good wagons, then what is stopping Noraa from being the best one out of currently available options?

Also, a question to the people discussing the mech: Did you decide it was worthwhile enough to give the final scroll pass to the scummiest player? Or should we not bother?

I understand that, in a way, we block a night kill if the final bounce is to scum. But that will require us dictating to the second chosen player who to pick, which is unfortunate. We also might learn something from who scum passes the scroll to anyway. That is why I am not sure what our best option is.

[Fidget]

You’re basically dead to me at this point shelly.
This is your scum game.

Oh how shelly loves to bus.

That being said, I would be quite surprised if she defended Noraa, even as town.

[Fidget]

Regarding Noraa my heart just dropped.

while not voting noraa

which is a very scummy move to look good for the cameras while trying to slow the wagon

Are you saying Bell is impeding the Noraa wagon, and he's trying to look good.. by not joining the wagon?

No. You're saying he's throwing suspicion on Noraa in order to look good, but he's not committing the vote because he's holding out for the wagon not going through. Is that what you're saying?

[Fidget]

No. You're saying he's throwing suspicion on Noraa in order to look good, but he's not committing the vote because he's holding out for the wagon not going through. Is that what you're saying?

YES

Seems a tad counter-intuitive to me, and not very good for gaining towncred at all. But I'll concur with LLD on the wagon spec point and not do too much pre-flip yet.

[Fidget]

im saying bell is doubting your methods while townreading you

which again, is a way to discredit the noraa push without going against town leader

This is some real puppermastery stuff. You think Bell is trying to subtly shade LDD's methods but not actually go against her with a full scumread in hopes that it somehow.. saves Noraa?

My issue with this read is the motivation. It's really not likely scum Bell is trying to save Noraa here. And this would be a really far-fetched way of going about it.

Regarding Noraa my heart just dropped.

while not voting noraa

which is a very scummy move to look good for the cameras while trying to slow the wagon

Are you saying Bell is impeding the Noraa wagon, and he's trying to look good.. by not joining the wagon?

No. You're saying he's throwing suspicion on Noraa in order to look good, but he's not committing the vote because he's holding out for the wagon not going through. Is that what you're saying?

wtf is this

Me making sure I'm understanding her right. Is there something in particular about it..?

[Fidget]

In my loose experience, scum!Noraa aggressively points the finger at people constantly, whereas town!Noraa at least is unsure on some reads. I imagine scum!Noraa shouting about how confident and sure she is someone is scum as they go down, whereas town!Noraa might be unsure, feel bad, and hedgey on what the flip will be.

There is overlap though because Noraa in general tends to be quite erratic and aggressive. I'm unsure if my theory on her being less certain == towny is true but it's worked at least a couple times so far.

[Fidget]

Isis are u good

[Fidget]

No way Bell or Lady are scum

[Fidget]

No way Bell or Lady are scum

why is bell even town

I generally find players who start to tilt under pressure towny.

pedit: Oohhhh. Hi Berserker.

[Fidget]

I generally find players who start to tilt under pressure towny.

so you think flailing is a towntell

thats impressive fidget

You misread me, I said tilting, not flailing. Tilting is more emotional and irrational.

Noraa was flailing earlier. It's like going into a death spiral when you're caught. I don't know how to explain it. It's different from just getting upset like Bell/LLD are.

For example, when you get tilted, you might say things that you'll regret. This makes much more sense from town who feels justified in what they're saying, than it would for scum who is just desperately trying to grasp for straws in order to win a game. Now it's not impossible for scum to get upset, but funnily enough the only time I ever really saw it was in multiball. Where they felt justified.

[Fidget]

No way Bell or Lady are scum

why is bell even town

I generally find players who start to tilt under pressure towny.

pedit: Oohhhh. Hi Berserker.

Ah I see, I probably worded that bad. The pressure doesn't have to be significant. Just enough to get them annoyed, so a single scumread works.

A big reason I believe in this tell is because I throw a tantrum under pressure quite a bit. I assume the worst of whoever is scumreading me and it clouds my judgment. When you're scum you know they're right though, so there isn't nearly as much to get upset over.

Getting caught for the wrong reasoning might throw a wrench in this theory, as well as personal grudges. But I feel justified in saying lots of genuine sounding emotion, especially frustration = towny.

Anyway the point I'm saying this though is that I think Bell disproportionally getting worked up over not much pressure at all qualifies. I do the same thing.

[Fidget]

i dont think scumIsis even thinks up this gambit much less tries it but I've never played with ScumIsis before so *shrug*

Isn't the extent of the gambit claiming scum and self-voting? And saying it's because they want a vig shot.

I'm not familiar with Isis, but my first thought would be that I wouldn't do that for fear that my partners interpret it as me throwing. I talked about self-voting earlier, I think it would be acceptable to try and fake some weird town slip with a self vote thinking it's an optimal strat. But claiming scum too? Seems like something that scum partners might take issue with. Makes me inclined to agree.

On the other hand, it's WIFOMy and gross, sure.

[Fidget]

Oh this will be fun.

I like Mushy's tone, and that coupled with reports he could not have this kind of performance as scum puts him down as town for me. I like the way he's gone about defending Norra better than tayl0r did, but I may be getting a little confirm biased since I think in general Mush looks better than tayl0r.

I know I've just been going with the flow, but here's some of my hot takes. I don't understand all the tip toeing, this isn't like a normal setup where town has to stop talking once we flip someone. There's still scenarios where Noraa flips town and I'd rather have time after that first Noraa "flip" and after we have more info to come to a decision about flips 2 and 3. Also this is like the most fun setup to get miselimed in so I don't really understand why town Noraa would be so upset, but whatever. I think odds of hitting 2 scum day 1 are higher if we flip Noraa scum and get LLD confirmed early than if we try to go backdoor, and I think if we flip 2 scum today we win outright. I don't think town Noraa venges LLD out of spite. If this is town Noraa I want to know sooner rather than later.

I think the attitude I'm going to take is "I will work with Noraa, but under the pretense she is dying today." So a win either way. I agree that town!Noraa probably doesn't venge LLD out of spite, or at least I'd certainly hope so.

I have read 20 pages since from where I last left off and I still haven't fully caught up. I'm still scum reading Noraa and I'm also scum reading Unowen because once when Noraa started to get defensive and all those votes piled up on her, Unowen says the wagon on Noraa looks promising and then randomly shaded me about my vote on Noraa which looked sus.

--->

Ah yes, I knew that my vote against Noraa would lead to good things.
The wagon looks promising, Noraa's reaction to the pressure has indeed been flaily.
Adorable's vote was not great.

I do not find this post scummy if you assume Noraa to be scum. Are you saying one of the two is scum, or that they are scum together for this?

[Fidget]

I have enough respect for Noraa as a player to believe that if town she does not kill someone she thinks is town, regardless of what she is saying right now.

then do you think Taylor is scum here? she states that pooky is scum and LLD is town but very anti town so she will kill LLD.
This is in fact my exact reasoning(except I don't think pooky is scum) and I actually said that was why I was going to kill LLD before Taylor did. I believe LLD is likely to be town but she squashes all opinions that don't agree with hers and is overly confident and aggressive.

Killing someone simply because you think they are anti-town, rather than for actual scummy reasons, just screams that you are scum trying to justify a bad shot.

pedit: Oh, my bad

[Fidget]

Isis is being replaced.

Will post a request in the replacement queue when I'm not on mobile.

Aw.

I'm specifically interested in the following players giving me a Hopkirk read especially.

UNOwen
Bell
Zdenek
Shelly
Adorable
Theta
Lapsa

These people, please read Hopkirk and give me a read. "Null" is not a read unless you can justify it real well, please. I want you to lean TOWN or SCUM essentially "would you kill Hopkirk?"

Anyone who isn't reading LLD as town playing like they have 5 seconds to live is crazy.

No hopkirks jumping on my wagon wasn't even explained well and he just sheeped everyone. that's 100% LHF vibes there

Maybe you're looking for the term for a player that constantly jumps on LHF. "Opportunistic", maybe. I do not even recall Hopkirks vote, but needless to say there's only been one wagon so far so evaluating someone as opportunistic for voting

just

you may be premature.

youre assuming hopkirk dies today now. which proves that youre assuming we just follow your plan and that you arent trying to sort hopkirk with this wagon but just push someone.

im gonna take a break from this thread. im not gonna engage lld any more, because im getting very legitimately angry and nothing good is going to come of this. lld has proven that she has no interest in engaging with me as an honest broker. she just wants to paint me as scum.

This is always quite frustrating to be on the receiving end of. Town dictates the game as if they've only got one day to solve it, rapid fire gets a read on every player, then tries to control where the elim goes (obviously). Can be hit or miss but either way I hate to be tunneled by a big personality cause usually they don't have the time to really deeply engage every slot and they kinda just end up putting people into bins and going from there.

Taylor's right. You are just SRing everyone that doesnt agree with you.

where did Hopkirk disagree with LLD?

Feels like Noraa is more or less just saying things at this point, which is probably just a product of frustration more than it's AI.

[Fidget]

Also I already pointed this out earlier but if I wanted to get towncred thru a townslip as scum, I would just say something like "ok guys we got 4 scums to find" and it would benefit me literally millions of times more.

Why would anyone say that

[Fidget]

both town!Swift and scum!Swift seem fascinating and too bold to be true here, in different ways. It's interesting

Hahahaha she has that effect sometimes doesn't she

no you arent. because no one else is allowed to have opinions. so the only read people can get is "this person agreed/disagreed with lld"

wait how is LLD preventing you from having an opinion lol

Yeah this is what I don't get.

People are complaining they don't have control of the town because people are listening to me.

Then convince others that your ideas are right then. It's a game of argument. Argue! Make points!
LMFAO

i started by making a point about the gamestate. rather than engage me you fucking started shouting me down and saying i was scumclaiming. you want to degrade this to a shitfight? fine. but youre an awful person for playing like this.

Hm, hm, hm. I'm tempted to say from what I've seen that I'd be lashing out at LLD too if she spoke to me like she did to Isis (and presumably tayl0r when I get to that part).

I don't think Pooky is town.

i dont think so either. i think lld is town but really fucking misguided on a big fucking ego trip thats really shitty for everyone else. but i think pooky is scum for the way hes latched on and is egging lld on but not doing any solving.

I'll keep this is in mind for later, I think.

lld seriously you need to stop posting. this isnt scumhunting. this isnt team play. this isnt productive. this is you on a big fucking ego trip. and it needs to stop. because it isnt fun for anyone else. and youre wrong. and youve convinced yourself that you cant be wrong because youre town leader, and therefore you cant be questioned. so anyone who questions you must be scum, because you already figured everything out for us. except youre wrong. and youre disastrously wrong. and listening to you is going to be awful for town.

Mm okay, I've seen enough. I townread tayl0r now. Let's go 3 for 3 on the emotion reads this game. Bell, Tayl0r, LLD.

[Fidget]

This is probably needless to say, but I don't think Tayl0r's reaction to (presumably as I will read) a Hopkirk wagon is indictative of Noraa/Tayl0r/Hopkirk being a perfect solve.

Pooky you're a bad influence on me this game.

I'm turning into Fate, with less rage issues.

I think you are maybe worse influence for me because I feel more like old me than new me :3

Is old you more aggressive and provocative?

Oh, I'm out of time for reading. I like town's chances even if Noraa is town. That being said I sincerely hope she is scum, or I have no hope in reading her town game.

I'm not willing to give Bell a town pass on emotion yet, because I'm a big soft dipshit and claiming emotional vulnerability will get you an instant pass from me right up to the point of being game throwing.

My reads thus far are mooostly based on play and recognition of coherent town reasoning (or lack thereof). Noraa's the odd one out.

Happens to me sometimes. I am trying to up the threshhold for my emotion tell. I used to give it out even more liberally. Maybe you are right on Bell but I am certain on LLD and feel good about tayl0r.

[Fidget]

Hi Titus. good vote

I want to vote Noraa after that, but I don't want to end the day.

It is worth noting that we keep all the time left on the deadline when we pass a scroll. We just add 2 days to it

Oh, I wasn't aware of that.

[Fidget]

@Noraa

, if you vengekill LLD, I'm treating you as flipped scum. If you need me to convince you she's town any more than the thread probably should've, let me know.

254 this feels like it was premeditated
i mean seriously it feels like this exchange between noraa and adorable was planned out ahead of time
why is a self-proclaimed newbie attacking adorable and effectively daring them to vote themselves
and not attacking hopkirk who had placed a blank vote
or unowen who had an rvs vote

Yes exactly. Noraa is not a fool, if she fears that she has been caught and is 100% going down then I believe her instinct would be to perform some sort of distancing with one of her partners. The highlighting of the Adorable post was pretty strong considering the context of Noraa getting swarmed that was going on. "Theres so many questions that I get when I see this post that I am definitely SRing you for it. I think I'd actually like to place my vote here bc I want to put some pressure on you." sounds like a very calculated statement, not naturally worded at all. Noraa later follows up with declaring she would give the scroll to Adorable too. However at no point does Noraa reach out to other players to support the Adorable vote, which I think she would if town and convinced she had identified a clearly scummy player hopping on the wagon. That she has this reaction to Adorable but is apparently not alarmed about the way I have lazily sat on her wagon (unlike both shelly and taylor) has further suggested to me that something is up.

On Adorable, she is busy and it is not clear that she has completely caught up so perhaps there will be better information later. But the vote was awkward as anything, independent of Noraa's alignment. Noraa is right that the whole "I don't understand why Noraa is defensive?" was a scummy question to ask. The implication is clear but instead of just stating a suspicion and acting on it there is a smoke screen of questioning to build up to the vote. Then immediately in 277 the facade drops, Adorable thinks Noraa is sus and declares she would give the scroll to Noraa. This looks like scum attempting to find their way onto a wagon.

I think there's a lot of merit to this. I wonder how Noraa will try to explain why she's passing the scroll to LLD over Adorable.

Pedit: Oh. That's right. That's why I'm chilling on voting.

[Fidget]

im 95% confident in saying that pooky is scum and isis is town here.

I'm ready for Taylor Swift - > Pooky - > Noraa for D1 pass.

I think it's win - win - win.

TS and I scum-read each other and Noraa is Noraa.

Tayl0r just seems pissed off to me. Her scum meta is to tryhard, is it not? I'll read through more of course, but from what I recall, you were just kind of messing with her while she was upset with LLD.

Side note: It seems to me you are quite the self-sacrificial player, Pooky, across a lot of your games. I may have made the mistake of finding it AI in the past, but now it just seems like something you generally do.

What people assume scum would do really isn't close to what scum do in practice. Think about this, if everyone knew scum always do it then scum would stop doing it. Most of what I used to find scummy was just new townies I tunneled on. Personally I find scumslips to be more of a towntell than a scumtell tbh.

IMO this is the correct way to go about 99% of "scumslips"

[Fidget]

If we're going for the "slap Noraa with third scroll" strategy, then I'm okay enough with it. I don't have much hope for TS or Pooky being scum though. I'd actually rather see Adorable get the first hit just by virtue of that awkward Noraa interaction.

the alleged scum slip is the reaction noraa had to the possibility of being the third person with a scroll
which as has been stated before would deny scum the ability to choose someone to kill if scum is in that slot

Oh yeah, I should probably actually check what the "scumslip" was.

[Fidget]

I don't agree that I was throwing shade at him. I was genuinely curious. I know that hopkirk generally knows what towncred is and how to get it and his switch in posting style is designed to get it.

....@Pooky confession: I don't think I can read taylor. But she seems to be try harding which is new and exciting to me.

tryhard taylor = scum-taylor

town taylor is a lurker who posts shitty dog pictures

Oh! So you do know. I take it she started tryharding. That's interesting. She doesn't always low-effort as town though, I believe it's just dependent.

Mush looks like town, I think fidget looks like town, hot take is that taylor seems like town

Sweeet.

I'm feeling like Pooky and Tayl0r are town that are both sure of each other being scum. Pooky especially I think is town now. I see why he thinks tayl0r is scum and I believe he really thinks that's a slam dunk kill.

[Fidget]

VOTE: Adorable

[Fidget]

Why is the adorable wagon a thing?

I think scum is abandoning Noraa, and Noraa's last contribution is to try and distance from Adorable. This is reinforced by how their interactions with each other seemed awkward.

254 this feels like it was premeditated
i mean seriously it feels like this exchange between noraa and adorable was planned out ahead of time
why is a self-proclaimed newbie attacking adorable and effectively daring them to vote themselves
and not attacking hopkirk who had placed a blank vote
or unowen who had an rvs vote

Yes exactly. Noraa is not a fool, if she fears that she has been caught and is 100% going down then I believe her instinct would be to perform some sort of distancing with one of her partners. The highlighting of the Adorable post was pretty strong considering the context of Noraa getting swarmed that was going on. "Theres so many questions that I get when I see this post that I am definitely SRing you for it. I think I'd actually like to place my vote here bc I want to put some pressure on you." sounds like a very calculated statement, not naturally worded at all. Noraa later follows up with declaring she would give the scroll to Adorable too. However at no point does Noraa reach out to other players to support the Adorable vote, which I think she would if town and convinced she had identified a clearly scummy player hopping on the wagon. That she has this reaction to Adorable but is apparently not alarmed about the way I have lazily sat on her wagon (unlike both shelly and taylor) has further suggested to me that something is up.

On Adorable, she is busy and it is not clear that she has completely caught up so perhaps there will be better information later. But the vote was awkward as anything, independent of Noraa's alignment. Noraa is right that the whole "I don't understand why Noraa is defensive?" was a scummy question to ask. The implication is clear but instead of just stating a suspicion and acting on it there is a smoke screen of questioning to build up to the vote. Then immediately in 277 the facade drops, Adorable thinks Noraa is sus and declares she would give the scroll to Noraa. This looks like scum attempting to find their way onto a wagon.

Here's where I got that idea from.

I also much prefer this to Tayl0r. Hopkirk I don't have a solid opinion on yet. Bell vs. shelly 1v1 (if that is a thing), I have not checked but I believe Bell to be town.

[Fidget]

im actually thinking

Taylor - > Pooky -> Noraa would be a pretty damn good scroll pass

If we are not doing Noraa first then I would lean more on Unowen is scum which was mentioned earlier. And also I wanted to add on #101 what Theta said are my thoughts exactly. On #680 it looked like Isis also had the same thoughts as me and Theta which makes me think Isis is also probably town with Theta. On #708 Unowen said Isis is suspicious and I would have assumed town Unowen would have picked up on what Theta was saying on #101 and would have also assumed Isis also picked up on this too and would have leaned town on Isis. This makes me think scum did not know town were asked to confirm that scum had daytalk.

I also saw somewhere that doing this t>s>t is bad and I'm assuming town would have to pass the scroll to a town read if the first scroll is handed to a town player.

idk
this post is actually town!AI and vibing with my own thoughts
adorable is not locktown but they're def not a good wagon

Well, I guess I'd have to ask you what about it strikes you as towny. Do you know?

I find Adorable's attack on UNOwen for trying to set Adorable up with Noraa somewhat weak.

I'm scum reading both Noraa and Unowen. Unowen said Noraa's wagon looked promising and then randomly mentions my vote which looked like he knows something about Noraa's alignment. Sometimes scum will link a scum buddy to a town player and this was the vibe I was getting from Unowen.

Ah yes, I knew that my vote against Noraa would lead to good things.
The wagon looks promising, Noraa's reaction to the pressure has indeed been flaily.
Adorable's vote was not great.

All he said was that Adorb's vote was not great.

And I find her reasoning for UNOwen being suspicious for not.. mindmelding with Theta I guess (?) to be vague/confusing.

[Fidget]

I was just going to do a response thing to engage with Noraa, but it ended up being a readslist of some sort. Works for me, I guess.

A read for everyone here(I did it by ISO as to make my job much easier otherwise I would've gotten a headache reading the whole entire thread). No one gets excluded :D

Adorable

Spoiler:

post 244 is this slots opening post and to be absolutely and brutally honest, I still do not like it. Generally, when I see a post sussing me while I'm under a lot pressure, I will never like it but I have taken a hot break and I still don't like it. This means that it's no longer a "I was being emotional" type of thing but rather a much more fair and solid read. "Not understanding why I am being defensive" is a really interesting thing to say here. The reason is that 1)newbies are always defensive. Regardless of my wins/losses, I am a newbie with a little over 2 months of time on ms and that is a fact no one can question. 2)rather than asking why I am being defensive which many people have already pointed out, just state whether its town indicative or scum indicative from your pov. That all aside, I think I am not that convinced this slot is scum anymore. Every single post from this user oozes newbtells. There are 0 independent arguments and every argument is some sort of OMGUS(ie SR on Uno and SR on me). I relate to this on a spiritual level. No matter how many people are sussing me(pressure doesn't matter, any amount will suffice), I will legit just OMGUS the fuck out of them. I always try to justify it otherwise but really ... let's talk facts. Im a noob. I hate pressure. I OMGUS. This is my form of self protection and tho it looks stupid/scummy, it is what it is for now. I hope for that to change as well since it really doesn't help with scum hunting but I can't really do anything about it rn cuz I haven't progressed past the point where I stop caring about pressure and just do my own thing. My reads are still heavily influenced by pressure. This is proven in all of my town games (if anyone wants straight up evidence, I can provide it) This slot oozes newb and reminds me a lot of myself except less active(a lot less active actually). Throwing away all of my SRs on this slot for now. Hot take this slot is just

newbtown

.

Bell

Spoiler:

first glance over and this slot has a lot of LAMISTing(ie posts 125, 139, 520, etc). I think that's slightly scum indicative bc, I generally don't say a lot of that type of stuff as town but I think it could just be play style and im too lazy to meta dive you. I really liked your defense of me at the beginning tho. It was very reasonable and I believe that if I was seeing a newbie slot get tunneled like this, I would also reply like that. I really like the courage there bc I do believe that getting involved in things like this and disagreeing with people taking up town leader positions can often result in you getting thrown straight under the bus. Generally, when I am NOT the person getting tunneled, I have zero fear as town so I think zero fear is town indicative. Indecisiveness(imo) is also for the most part, town indicative. You had a lot of hmm is Noraa scum? Nah maybe they are town. Or maybe they are scum. Etc, etc. This reminds me of my pms with mods when I am a pr. It literally looks like this:

Noraa shoots blah

. Wait wait no

Noraa shoots other blah

. Wait actually no

Noraa shoots other other blah

. Wait no no no

Noraa shoots other blah

. Wait wait wait wait wait

Noraa shoots other other blah

. Argh sorry mod

Noraa shoots other blah

. final decision

Noraa shoots blah

(that was the first decision :facepalm:) Indecisiveness, though it is slightly a personality trait for me, is generally town indicative. I find myself so much more certain and less flip floppy when scum yet I have so many doubts and lots of paranoia as town. Also one post that asked if I normally post reads lists early in the game was really good cuz thats like investigating in on some meta and stuff. Your a bit fencesitty about your SRs(I can provide examples if asked) but thats generally how I am as well. I've been trying to actually just stick to one read lately but that ends up biting me in the ass a lot of the times too so idk. still trying to find a balance. You remind me a lot of myself sometimes as well. I want to say this slot is likely

town

for now.

Fidget

Spoiler:

Post 36 and 290 scare me. Unlike Bell whose whole play here has been LAMIST-y, your's doesn't stay LAMIST. only the entrance is lamist and that is really scary. I always think first impressions are the most important(ironic cuz I blew mine but nonetheless, I do think this) One of my pretty close online friends once told me that no matter what, everyone will always remember the first impression you left on them. Whether or only subconsciously or like it was just yesterday depends on the person. When you come in with that super LAMIST entrance but then drop it immediately, I get really worried you are just faking a really town look first and dropping it and relaxing once you realize the pressure all got sucked away into a Noraa vortex of doom. You really only talk about me. Every post somehow relates to me. Your reads on everyone have something to do with me. Meaning you are doing 100% preflip analysis and every single read is only true if I flip red. I 100% see that as a hohoho guys I have reads that are all based on Noraa flipping red. And AHA when she flips green, I can just be like ana oop turns out preflip analysis aint that hot eh. Excuse me for not having reads now cuz horrible Noraa lead me astray with her terrible awful playstyle. Most of your posts are 100% sheeping/buddying(ie posts 296(buddying LLD), all the isis buddying, 1265(buddying mush)) or 100% preflip analysis. No posts directly scream preflip analysis but its very clear that she is basically everything off of a red Noraa flip and when that doesn't happen, nothing she says she can't take back. I think this slot is

scum

aorn.

Flea

Spoiler:

I don't have much to say here but I think overall, I agree with literally almost every single post from this user. Well, I ... conditionally agree. Meaning if I was a townie watching myself get tunneled in the current situation, I would have basically the exact same thoughts as Flea as town but VERY different thoughts as scum. As scum, I would just push myself and pocket LLD. This means win/win for scum cuz they aren't even gonna get any SRs for jumping on cuz I was legitimately just playing scummy as fuck, being defensive as fuck, and just failing so badly at obvtowning. Plus pocketing LLD = a big shield that is right in front of you at all times cuz a bigger presence is much more noticeable and will get blamed more likely regardless of alignment. By far the most similar person to me.

TR

.

Gloria

Spoiler:

zero content. absolute lurker. two posts. I hate policy lims but if we are doing one, this is the slot to do it on. that may sound mean but I highly doubt we will get anything out of this slot if they continue with whatever they are doing and im always really paranoid that lurkers are scums cuz if they don't talk, ya can't sort. And if they be scum, ya still can't sort :/ This slot is a big question mark and a

null

.

Hopkirk

Spoiler:

I got lazy. Interpreting what all the verse meant got tiring after a literal 2 posts. I'm going to throw you in the

null

for now. I'll sort you as the day goes on.

LLD

Spoiler:

I can't sort this slot fairly because I literally want this slot to be scum so much that I don't even know what my read is anymore.

Lapsa

Spoiler:

I cannot follow anything of your progressions. I see zero progression in fact. But I feel like I'm obligated to give you a null cuz I gave Gloria a null and there's not a huge difference. Yeah, you 100% seem more opportunistic but I mean its unfair cuz Gloria hasn't said anything about the game and thats worse imo.

Null but scum lean

. None of your votes are justified and you don't engage anyone.

Murder

Spoiler:

Pretty annoyed at this slot atm. I hate that someone that has legit played a whole game with town!me and knows that im a big baby when it comes to not being stubborn, won't hear me out. He claims he engages me and shit but every time it reads to me like "Just fucking accept you are dead bitch. Now calm your ass and solve the whole game for me if you are town. If you don't, then ur scum" I feel forced to give reads but then you just come around and are like "oop well it doesn't matter cuz ur dead meat anyways" When Mush says it, it's different. You know why? Because mush understands that I fucked up but is unwilling to save me. You, on the other hand are basically pressuring me to give reads, pressuring me to not be antitown when I am mad, and constantly just being like "stop being mad noraa. ur dying anyways" That logic doesn't click with me and constantly just repeating the same damn thing to me isn't gonna get you whatever tf it is that you want from me. All you are gonna do is make me MAD. I'm throwing you in my SRs because I believe that town!you would see the town in me considering I am the exact same stubborn and stupid that I was in Roses. You aren't not seeing it. You know it is true but you know I am an easy lim as scum so you are pushing me hard. Thats the best I can interpret your play this game. I think you are

scum

.

Mush

Spoiler:

town

asf. there is no question. your play is 1000000% the same as the last game I was in with you where you were town and I was scum. It's a shame the one game I get to be the same alignment, I fucked myself over.

Pooky

Spoiler:

I don't know. I have trouble reading slots with this playstyle. Jokes can only go so far before they start looking like absolute trolling. I sincerely do not know and have flip flopped multiple times on you. I think I will throw you in the

null

.

Shelly

Spoiler:

ok I struggle with reading shelly and get really paranoid bc she has fooled me all the way before. In roses, I was hard tunneling her slot but she replaced in and I got really paranoid but then was like hmmm these reactions are townie. I ended up dropping the SR and untunneled. She coasted a tiny bit and threw me all the way off. I ended up tunneling elsewhere and almost drove a mislim when she was the last scum. This game, I've gotten quite some scum vibes. The problem is that based on my knowledge from playing with her, when she seems town, she is scum. When she seems scum, she is town. But in the Roses mafia pt, she said that she knew a lot of the players and was going to not play her normal scum game and now im extremely paranoid. I think you are scummy bc of all the buddying up to LLD, all the weird interaction with Bell(if that interaction was SvT, I think you are the scum), also bc of some really weak reasoning(ie post 68) I am absolutely paranoid and I currently still somewhat believe my read is correct so this is a

SR

Taylor

Spoiler:

town

asf. exact reasons as mush. anyone SRing, should meta dive. It's clear she is town. no question at all. I've learned to trust you, Taylor. The reason is that .... you don't really lie to be absolutely honest. I can explain this once its legal otherwise it breaches ongoing game rules so currently I cannot yet.

Theta

Spoiler:

Agreed with Isis on a TR here but flipped a few times and now this slot's

null

. Also im getting tired so the rest of the explanations r gonna be shorter. Edit: they basically dne

Titus/VaultDweller

Spoiler:

VaultDweller I had a scum lean/scumread on. Titus ... eh. Seems to be efforting more than normal. I have trouble reading replacements right away ... they throw me off. I'd like to re-sort this slot later so I'll lower the SR to a

null

for the time being

Toogeloo

Spoiler:

idk

null

for now

Uno

Spoiler:

idk

null

for now

Vaxkiller/Isis

Spoiler:

idk

null

for now

Zdenek

Spoiler:

idk

null

for now

I might go in and finish up the last few ISOs tomorrow but rn im tired. Im going to bed and they r gonna stay null for now.

Noraa, why do you feel obligated to try so hard in this game?

Spoiler: Comments

@Adorable - She knows how to play scum, don't count her out. But I will say that yes, it is possible Adorable is newbtown OMGUSing there.

@Bell - Nothing about those posts are LAMIST, but I see you townread Bell in the end so whatever. It is funny that Bell reminds you of your fencesitty townself so you townread him. That's my towntell for you. I will add on that Bell's emotions jump out as me as town, but yeah in any case, I agree with this read.

@Fidget - What about those posts scare you, exactly? Again, you're throwing around LAMIST but I do not think that word means what you think it means. Your point of me being LAMIST in my first couple of posts then dropping it.. I have no idea what you mean by that. Your concerns with pre-flip analysis are correct, I have done that as scum in the past. However, I really am probably 60-75% sure you are scum here. With regards to the buddying point, I do not believe I have buddied Isis or Mush. I don't even townread Isis. I have no idea where that is coming from. Your read on me is based in another reality I cannot understand, except for the pre-flip analysis part which is understandable enough. I feel my play has been mainly to gather a small group of high townies and ensure your elimination. More recently, I'm weighing my options for who the first two to get the scroll before you are. I can follow why you find me hyper focusing on you suspicious, but in terms of reading other players, I am not simply townreading those who oppose you and scumreading those who are with you.

@Flea - Had to ISO Flea for this one. I am not really sure what it is that you're seeing that separates them from others pushing you.

@Gloria - who

@Hopkirk - I, too, have skimmed over many of Hopkirk's posts. I'll check him out for the both of us because I feel bad now. Yeah, so I generally like him. I'm in a similar spot thinking you're scum with bussers. I have similar locktown. He's quite the voice of reason. Hopkirk I know has a very good scum game, though. I will probably keep him as soft town and reevaluate as we go on, I fear I wouldn't scumread if he is scum here anyway.

@LLD - She's not scum.

@Lapsa - I don't believe this slot has ever had a mutual interaction with a single nother slot. Your analysis of him is good.

@Murder - He's probably not scum. Your emotions are influencing you heavily on this one, he's very calm and not at all like your characterization you give here. I tend to agree with Murder's logic. You are on your deathbed, but that does not mean you have to despair. I probably wouldn't be hearing any of that in your place either, to be fair. Hrm. In any case, you are not reading him clearly here, there is nothing about this read that makes him more likely to be scum.

@Mush - Yup.

@Pooky - Pooky's town, he bleeds town from the tayl0r interaction.

@Shellyc - I cannot for the life of me tell when shelly is scum. Her baseline is so scummy, I have no idea how to tell the difference. I'm not really sure where your scumread is coming from, but that's fine. I think I will evolve to a bit of a scumread on shelly in the case of your flipping town. Reason being, I think she may have been way too confident way too early (I'll have to recheck to make sure this is the case). I at least know shelly has done that as scum before.

@Tayl0r - Mm, well I believe tayl0r to be capable of high efforting as both alignments, while low effort is generally more town indicative. I want to say this is high effort for her, so no help there. The real chunk of my read on tayl0r would have to be her reaction to Pooky and LLD, which I

suppose

is fallible, since this is a highly frustrating situation regardless of your alignment.

@Theta - I believe that I like Theta's points on Adorbs, not so much on Hopkirk. I think based off of tone I like her slightly.

@Titus-Vault - Agree on holding off on this slot.

@Toogeloo - Going to need to check their ISO. Okay. They're misguided on Theta imo. I do not see how Theta trying to put Noraa into the third scroll holder is scum indicative? Very odd. No opinion on this slot yet though.

@UNOwen - I quite liked UNOwen's post about Adorbs/Noraa seeming awkward, although I'm not fully convinced yet. Your turning around on Adorbs gives me some pause. Otherwise no opinion yet.

@Vaxkiller/Isis - I wish this didn't go down in the way it did. No opinion yet.

@Zdenek - Like the Tayl0r/Pooky TvT take. No other comments yet.

[Fidget]

do you guys notice how t-swift shut her mouth about Pooky being scum the second I offered her the 1 for 1 trade?

where did all that 95% confidence go?

i'll tell, you she's full of it and just made that up. If T-Swift town actually had 95% conviction that Pooky = scum then she would take this 1:1 in a heartbeat.

or, more plausibly, i was simply doing stuff irl and wasnt posting at all. im happy to do the trade, but dont want noraa dead and i dont want you going second.

I have to agree, Pooky is jumping to conclusions there. Unless I'm mistaken, Tayl0r wasn't ignoring him. She wasn't even in the thread at all.

[Fidget]

I never see posts like the one fidget just made come from town. Ever.
Why do I have so many scum reads this game.

Guess you can say you have now. All I want is for Tayl0r and Pooky to stop fighting. To answer your rhetorical question, that may be because on average a quarter of the things you read are coming from scum.

[Fidget]

fidget do you like, see the possibility of noraa town because i find it so hard

that noraa wall is pure omgus

I believe myself to be something of an expert on the Noraa reads wall now.

People pushing Noraa ->
Adorable(newbtown), Fidget(scum), Flea(town), Hopkirk(soft town / null), LLD(scum but admits to not thinking clear), Murder(scum), Pooky(null), Shelly(scum), UNOwen(null)

People defending Noraa ->
Mush (town), Tayl0r(town)

She trends towards viewing her attackers unfavorably and vice versa, yes. Interestingly enough, the reads I had the most trouble understanding (Adorable, Flea) were townreads she gave out to those on her wagon. I believe she is not thinking clearly on her LLD and Murder reads regardless of alignment.

To answer your question, I do still see the possibility. I'm maybe 65% on scum. I have a terrible track record reading you and Noraa, although I have found that generally Noraa being more uncertain is +town for her. I don't think she had the chance to exhibit that this game, too many emotional distractions.

[Fidget]

@Fidget - are you a public alt? I'm wondering who you are since you said I've got a 'very good scumgame' and I haven't rolled scum in like two and a half years and 20-30 games at this point.

I am not.

To clarify my POE is closer to 10-12 than it is 5. Those are just the ones I was thinking of voting right now (less so Noraa

right now

but they're more the names I can see myself voting over the next two days)

It's largely that the tone feels under the radary/uncontroversial in general, but there's a couple of specific things that pinged me.

My understanding is that scum get one day vig you can’t shoot a scroll holder.
We get three flips at once.
That occur over a 7 day voting phase.
Then 2 baton passes for an additional 6 days of content.
3 flips repeat.

No scum NK?

You have a pretty good understanding of the setup, up until the part where you question whether or not scum has a NK. What is your intention behind the last line?

I trust that Noraa received several votes for that? So I'll hold off for a moment.

UNVOTE:

Ok let's clarify something rq. I asked Cabd to bring me along to spectate the next game he was going to spectate. He said he was gonna spectate this game and that I was in it already. I was at the time, not even aware of this games existence. I checked out this game and saw it was modded by hectic and was like ooooo sounds fun! so then I directly inned. I don't read setup. Everyone says that I town slip as scum. So to be completely honest, a lot of the "townslips" aren't even town slips for me cuz I legitimately don't pay attention to the OPs. Pooky since you referenced Mafiasunny, I was a mafia goon that game and I legitimately asked my partners in the pt if there were town prs. Dumb question ig you could say and considering my partners were voyeur and Roleblocker, it should've been pretty obvious there were prs. I didn't read any of the setup in that game either and submitted actions in the pt when the mod directly said you had to pm him. I literally do not read OPs of games with setups I've never played in before(that was my first mini theme). I want to reference two different games as well but they're ongoing so I can't but regardless I only skim OPs and sometimes I dont even do that. In this case, I did not read anything believe it or not.

I do not understand. Why did you feel the need to ask how many scum are in the setup rather than looking? If you thought this setup was closed, why would one of the designers/reviewers (Isis) play it?

I am playing with the idea you're just easy elimbait, but what an odd question to ask.

So two things here. First, this kind of reads as someone waiting to see how much traction it gets before deciding to vote and/or bus.
Second, less Fidget based, but something Fidget picked up here is that Bell's kind of doing a fake townslip there too with the 'not knowing if scum have a nightkill' comment. Feels like that didn't really get a reaction. Hey Fidget, can you go a little more into where your solid Bell townread comes from because it feels like you handed it out quickly, and it feels a little (not completely but a little) at odds with your Noraa perspective.

I would say I was thinking about voting Bell but only by virtue of that it was page 2. I was looking for his answer, not for other people to chime in. What makes you feel like it is the latter?

Yes, that is what I was getting at. I decided I was fine with his reaction and by the time I was back in the thread, I had Noraa to focus on in any case.

With regards to townreading Bell, I liked his tone which did slightly go against the thread pairing him w/ Noraa at the time. Let me see if I can tell exactly what I meant when I townread him.

Ah, I cannot help but like posts like these. Makes me feel like scum doesn't say them (even if sure, they could), especially when I'm thinking Noraa is scum.

Spoiler:

As someone that fakes town slips as scum.
I also town slip as town and or can't be bothered to clarify set ups on my own when the thread will do.

Also, ignore me I'm not going to interfere with your bearvestigation.

I imagine Bell outright saying he fakes townslips came off a lot better than Noraa who had more of a "caught redhanded" kind of feel when Pooky posted her message from that other game.

Why hasn’t LLD been vigged yet.
I feel like if I were scum I would have sent that message in yesterday.

What am I supposed to do with this too tired to do anything, but unable to sleep condition I find myself in.
Whine.
That’s what i’ll do.

Regarding Noraa my heart just dropped.
I’m glad I’m not scum partners with them if they’re scum.

Pedit: pfft.

Did I say i’m Glad i’m Not scum buddies with Norra yet.

Also, I feel bad if she’s actually not scum. :(

Though I suppose I should feel bad either way which fits in nicely with how I feel rn.

I like Bell's tone, but pointing that out ruins the Noraa coaching/bussing joke so I'll shelve that for later.

Taylor - town for realizing that this isn't AI due to previous experience playing with me
Murder - null bc he didn't realize it wasn't AI even tho he has played with me before but the paranoia towards shelly is very town bc when playing with shelly, it is nerve-racking trying to determine if you're being absolutely fooled or if you are judging too much and she's actually town. I feel this paranoia all the way after one scum game with her where she told me about all her evil plans in the scum pt and after one town game where I was fooled by her big time. Something that town pings + something that scum pings cancel out and so I am null but prolly town lean still.
Pooky - town because I believe he believes in his SR on me and scum wouldn't bc scum knows who their scum buddies are.
Lexi - null. I still dislike the discord argument. Lexi's been more eager to push me than Pooky has which tbh is a bit strange considering normally the one that starts it is the biggest on pushing it :/
Isis - town because the tone is towny and I relate to some of those posts in that I would say something similar in her position
Bell - townie confusion. could be faked but I'm willing to believe it is real for now
Shelly - scum for misrepping people and also for throwing shade at pooky yet never voting pooky.
Vaultdweller - scum. can't quite put my finger on what's wrong here but I'm def getting scum pings.
Hopkirk - null but lean scum. dislike the jumping on all biggest wagons for no reason.

You

really

don't want to die, do you?

I'm not sure how natural Fidget's progression reads since they had a problem with Noraa, but got a much bigger problem with her after it became clear pretty much everyone did.

I don't like that you went offline just when I wanted to interact with you Noraa :(

I had an issue with Noraa immediately after reading the post that looked like an attempted townslip. I noticed while skimming she got a couple of votes for that but needless to say I agreed. I'm curious what makes it seem like my issue with Noraa escalated after seeing others' reactions. I usually read starting where I was, post, keep reading, post as I go. Mayyyybe that, or maybe I'm missing exactly what I did.

[Fidget]

this is ordered from left to right in tiers btw

yeah fidget could be deepwolfing but their tone reads as solvy and rather proactive

If I am deepwolfing scum right now, that is going to end if Noraa is town. Feels like I got into a lot of town bins for the Noraa stuff, or at least that's what I remember.

As for fidget, I’m not building a case as to why those sorts of large posts are scum motivated or how shelly’s reaction is exactly the sort of thing that those posts are designed to incite feelings in. It’s not strong though! And he insisted that this is the first time I’ve met a town player that makes a post like that and I don’t feel super inclined to disbelieve them.

Oh, you meant the large reply to Noraa, and not the "Tayl0r and Pooky stahp" post? That makes way more sense. I think my WIM is higher as scum so my posts tend to effort more, and that might be a way to seem like I'm high-efforting.

In this case, I wanted to reply to Noraa but it turned into condensing my reads someplace partway through. My original intent was to ensure I wasn't ignoring Noraa, but I may as well use the opportunity to figure out where I stand on all the players.

i'd swap fidget -> zdenek in your solve but the rest of this seems quite solid

p-edit: why re you so confident in lld's ability to find scum

Supportive scum Shellyc tactic #2.

No. Well. Maybe. White knighty shelly.

Leantown on Theta for reaction to townslip, slight leantown on UNOwen for pointing out her reaction to townslip being towny maybe.

i'd swap fidget -> zdenek in your solve but the rest of this seems quite solid

p-edit: why re you so confident in lld's ability to find scum

Supportive scum Shellyc tactic #2.

ooh i really like that list from hopkirk

Bell you're inconsistent simply because making TRs is not equaling to pocketing. If you want to call everyone that TRs hopkirk as scum, SR this.

Who said anything about pocketing? I believe his intent was to accuse you of being scum supporting your partner.

[Fidget]

The issue is this
If Taylor is town and thinks you're scum then the actual order would be

Taylor-Pooky-One of Taylor's townreads

That's a shit bargain for Taylor. If she dies she absolutely wants to be in the middle.

Like nobody would EVER accept that because it's literally the worst possible outcome except for hitting 3 town since she dies and the mafia get the effective nightkill. It's far superior for her to kill someone she scumreads with the first slot. I especially don't get why you think Taylor as a player would like the deal based on the personality read I'm forming around her. What you SHOULD be asking her is whether she'd accept Pooky-Taylor-X since that's a deal town would consider taking. Choosing not to make that deal ensures she'll never take it as either alignment.

You're also definitely overestimating your game impact.

Yes.

Shelly has a really good ability to make me want to vote her every game. But I was just going over why Noraa also makes me do that. This feels bad. I'd love for

@Bell

to expound on how he lockscummed shelly, unless he did already in which I will find it later.

Maybe after the game and if you flip red I’ll share.

Oh. Guess I'll have to think for myself on that one.

Not really. You’re kind of like somebody who wants to control the game but I don’t respond well to what you’re doing. So I’m tactfully side stepping you.

I'd like to wagon someone yes. I'm not clear what you mean by 'wants to control the game' outside of that, and why you don't want to follow onto that wagon if you actually want that wagon.

If I wanted that wagon I would be trying to make that wagon, no?

Hopkirk smells a partnership since I dropped the possible forged townslip accusation from you earlier, I think.

I’m currently trying to wagon Shelly because she’s scum this game,
Would you like to join my wagon?

Here.

VOTE: shellyc

Why do I feel like 75% of the vig shots are going to be emotional decisions.

I suppose it helps to be a player that doesn't step on toes, then, doesn't it?

[Fidget]

My problem with this game is that I followed it for the first 15 pages or so, then it blew up when I was offline. I skimmed through what I could, but after 45 pages we were still gungho for Noraa. The game seems most active while I'm sleeping, and I don't just sit here and read pages on pages of mafia in my free time. So now I pretty much have no idea on what the plan is.

Large games are really rough for that.

Noraa is a go, the main disagreement seems to come from whether we put her up first or game it and put her last. Those who aren't 100% sure of Noraa being scum generally vote for Noraa going first. Those who are certain Noraa is scum generally vote for counterwagons so Noraa can be hit third.

Pooky and Tayl0r are 1v1ing where Pooky wants to have Tayl0r nominated, choose him, and then he chooses Noraa. Tayl0r doesn't like this plan and Hopkirk pointed out why it doesn't make much sense for her to take.

Adorable is the largest CW, she had some awkward interactions with Noraa early. There might be other reasons.

Bell has a big scumread on shelly. Shelly also has a big one on Bell I think.

[Fidget]

My apologies for not being around. I'm getting overwhelmed by a bunch of work, and this just had to be the weekend I suddenly have to be really busy too >.>

I should be able to dive through all of this tomorrow evening.

[Fidget]

Bell got heavily annoyed in Forest Fire (town game) and I want to say another town game of his that is slipping my mind. He did not in two-fold, but I believe he didn't come under any scrutiny in that one sadly and died to a cop result. In any case, I get the feeling he's like me where he gets frustrated when people seem to be ignoring whatever it is that makes you obvious town to yourself. And I really had strong townpings from him earlier in the game. It would take something really good from shelly to change my mind on this, but I have not really seen her reasoning yet.

Somebody asked me why I switched to shelly. I cannot bring myself to be sure that Noraa is scum. If I am to ignore the terrible townslip post and assume that Noraa will high WIM and flail around under pressure regardless of alignment, then she can still be town. Shelly doesn't see eye-to-eye with me on Bell and Bell wanted voters, saying he has an end-all reason for shelly being scum. Shelly has also exhibited the ultra confident characteristic I've noticed in her scum play. Although, she tends to be scum in most of her games so ehh

Pooky, do you

not

want us to do the Pook -> Tayl0r -> Noraa plan now?

I trust LLD/Pooky/Bell/Mush/Tayl0r to be town with a margin of error of probably up to 1.

Murdercat/Hopkirk are one tier below them. And the rest of the thread follows.

[Fidget]

if i get voted off i wont be passing the scroll to pooky. pooky doesnt get the scroll second.

If you are so sure Pooky is scum, that is 100% what you should do. I find it weird that you wouldn't, because I don't think many other players would give Pooky the scroll for you.

I trust Pooky to be town here. I could see me being incorrect about my Tayl0r read potentially, as LLD's play was probably just going to be generally frustrating for Tayl0r regardless of alignment, I suppose. I almost want to say Noraa is town if Tayl0r is scum.

Holy fuck. If you think mush is scum, god you have trash reads. Legit saying im town the moment she repped in was a terrible move if scum cuz it started a huge case on town!me. Plus her play is 100% on point with her town play.

looks at your strongest SR

Fidget
Shellyc
Titus
Pooky
Lapsa

from top to bottom, greatest to least

I agree Mush is town for being aligned with her normal town play. The act of defending you itself is not a good argument to locktown someone, but I did like the way Mush did it specifically.

[Fidget]

To prepare you all in advance, when I get the first scroll, I'd like everyone's preferred Scroll #2 wielder listed by their top 5 choices, in order. Whether I use this information or not, you will not know.

I uh, see that we're killing Toogeloo, then. I'll get there when I get there.

Kinda wish we'd have killed shelly. Partly sheeping Bell, partly having lots of second thoughts around Noraa and I'm starting to read her confidence in Noraa scum as fake.

PEDIT: Noraa... god. Just as I start to townread you again you wreck it /why do you want to derail this wagon so badly just stop/ Toogaloo wants the scroll give 'em the scroll why is this up for debate with the deadline looming THIS CLOSE.

If toog is actively begging for the scroll, it makes me at least slightly inclined to believe he isn't scum. But if there was significant pressure before he became suicidal then fine, it can just be wifom too.

Mush agrees toog is town. Mush still thinks toog can have the scroll since he wants it. the plan is good. life is good.

Lol

This gamestate, maybe this setup, is particularly frustrating. I win by finding and protecting my townreads (despite how tunnely I get, I know its not my best play). This setup makes it hard to do that.

For instance, I heavily lean town on Taylor. By necessity, that means I can only eliminate Pooky in the third position. That's problematic because I don't know Pooky is scum.

The other option is to accept my townread's eventual death but make her second, so she has agency to kill the scum.

Neither is a good option.

This whole setup feels like picking the less bad option.

I'm finding this a bit uncomfortable as well. I want to give Toog my top 5 players I'd elim, but I find it a lot easier to just say the ones I won't give it to.

Hey guys so I did a wee bit of pooky meta diving and according to the most recent finished games, scum!Pooky is full of fluff and extremely spammy whereas town!Pooky is only half full of fluff and actually ... rather quiet

I have not noticed this distinction.

[Fidget]

I'm starting to read her confidence in Noraa scum as fake.

Why do you think it's fake?

Noraa throwing reads out like candy and basically flailing under pressure of a fake townslip never comes from town, and derailing wagon when we have little time isn't townie at all?

You of all people should probably be aware of Noraa's volatility. Many of reads are super flaily and poor, but can you really lockscum her for it?

Also, while responding to Noraa's reads, I did notice not all of them were terrible. Her LLD/Murdercat reads were bad, but I suppose that would only make sense for an emotional player such as her. I also found her Adorable/Flea reads unconvincing, but not in a way that makes Noraa obviously scum. I don't know. All of this trying to prove herself as town stuff with the extremely high WIM.. before, I was reading it as confirmation that she is scum, but now I am not so sure.

[Fidget]

I am not sure why Theta/Murder don't want to give reads. If scum chooses to kill me or not kill me for something I have said, I trust that will be brought to light down the line.

I'm going to cheat somewhat because I don't have solid scumreads out of the pool of 10ish people I would consider passing the scroll, and I might not have time to find those preferences.

Don't give it to Lady, Murder, Bell, Hopkirk, Pooky or Mush. I slightly lean against throwing it at Theta but could be wrong. Hopkirk I have some capacity to be wrong on because I have not analyzed him deeply, but I'll reevaluate later.

If I had the scroll right now and I had to hit scum to win, I'd throw it at shelly. If I had the scroll and I just wanted to get the most information out of a flip as possible, I'd throw it at Noraa or Tayl0r. If all three of these players became scroll-immune, I would throw it at.... likely Lapsa or Adorable.

Zdenek/Vax/Titus/UNOwen/Gloria all have capacity to be scum but I do not have enough of an opinion on them yet.

[Fidget]

What is /dumb/ is saying "scrollbearer MUST FOLLOW TOWN." That leashes the scroll and lets scum influence the trajectory from the outside, without becoming targets themselves necessarily.

Toog is their own person here, and wants the information. Toog has promised nothing and offers nothing in exchange. The scroll isn't being leashed, information is just being shared. Best case scenario.

I am inclined to agree, and I do not think this benefits scum sharing who we are thinking about throwing the scroll to. It's all a WIFOM game, we can share or not share. If we share, scum has the opportunity to target those who scumread them, but it's all a WIFOM game. I prefer playing on the side of "share our thoughts and see what happens" over "everyone close ourselves off until the point we receive the scroll".

[Fidget]

shellyc
Tayl0r
Noraa
Lapsa
Adorable

[Fidget]

I really don't get how sharing our Day 1 garbo reads in an ordered list like you do in every other game because that's how you prioritize pushes and build a townbloc could be construed as dangerous to town when they're damn near guaranteed to change at least a little after flips and damn near guaranteed to be wrong right now why the hell are MURDERCAT and Theta doing this nothing comes out of keeping your reads secret except madness and horror and death /stop your foolish lies/ **WHEEZE**.

First of all, my reads aren't secret. Second of all, the main thing I don't like is that it is ordered. Because what happens right now if Toog is scum is they pick any townie who doesn't have a buddy in slot 1.

We still hit scum in that case, though. And we'll have that knowledge of who they chose tomorrow.

And even then, maybe I shoot my #1 if they give me the scroll, maybe I don't. I'm actually going to think harder than a rapid fire list of 5 names if I have to make a real decision, I imagine this is true for others too.

[Fidget]

I'd be milking my time with the scroll too, especially as town over scum I think. I feel it's actually harmful for scum overall to force everyone to take stances, but I suppose we'll see if I'm right on that in the long run. I think making every slot have to throw reads out is more valuable for town than scum knowing our reads is for them.

MC if Tooge was scum he would just pass it to the strongest consensus TR

btw Tooge ain't scum

we dont even have a strongest consensus TR

LLD seems to have fallen off recently and apparently half the thread suspects Pooky now, so that's interesting. I still think they're both town (especially LLD) of course, but you make a fair point that there isn't a clear best shot for scum in sight.

Agree with Pooky that Toog is probably town and even if they aren't I will treat them as such because may as well, they're dead scum anyway in that case.

info helps town more than scum

Yup, clamming up and stiffling discussion (or at least not actively trying to get people to talk) is the better play for scum in my mind.

hello fidget why do you think i make a good info flip if pooky doesnt?

Feeling good about Pooky being town. You I was similar on but I'm having second thoughts townclearing you because I think your reaction to LLD was justified regardless of alignment.

[Fidget]

Vaxkiller
Lapsa
Noraa
Fidget
UNOwen

This reads list does not line up with what you had previously said for a VERY long time. Perhaps my town pass was given too easily. I retract it.

Oo I wanna hear more about this. Actually, Adorable has only 15 posts, I think I can handle it.

She scumreads Noraa for A.) reasons we've been through obviously and B.) for voting her + leaving her vote on her even after reading her as newbtown
She scumreads UNOwen for suspecting her when she voted Noraa, thinking he was setting up Adorable as a partner to scum!Noraa
Amazingly enough she ALSO scumreads Vaxkiller for voting her and leaving their vote on her.
And finally, she scumreads Lapsa for switching his vote to her.
Perhaps I should add that I suspect her and am also on the list?

She's awfully cognizant and hostile towards those suspecting her, although I am not familiar enough with Adorable to know if she would do that as town too. The main thing I know about Adorable is that she town-slipped in every game I have ever played with her where she was town, lol

[Fidget]

Hi, there, Vax. If you want to know what reads I am solid on, look no further than my townbloc. Early scumreads are a bit of a weakness of mine, but I'm working on it.

I assure you, for example, I do not flip-flop on Noraa here if I were scum, there is no reason to do that.

[Fidget]

shellyc
Tayl0r
Noraa
Lapsa
Adorable

This list is all low hanging fruit, any of these people could die and everyone would shrug. No one on this list is going to present too much of an obstacle to put them on this list.

Can I change my tswift vote to Fidget?

I should probably also add that Gloria, UNOwen, Zdenek, Theta, Flea, and yourself could be considered LHF if you want to stretch the term. At least, they were when I was actively reading the thread. I also do not consider tayl0r to be low hanging fruit.

Pooky, Murdercat, Bell, Mush, and LLD are strong players, yes, but I also feel they are town. So, I suppose that is just how it is.

pedit: There is your answer, then.

[Fidget]

Lurk lurk lurk, then post a "going with the flow" post. You go out of your way to tell us you arent sure. Yea we all arent sure, but this: "dont have solid scumreads"..."but could be wrong"... "capacity to be wrong"... "capacity to be scum" ... "I do not have enough of an opinion on them yet"

yeah but think of it another way
town have no reason to be confident because they aren't informed

I have a tendency to not project false confidence when giving my reads or voting, so I will usually present my actual confidence levels. And they are typically not very high.

yeah but think of it another way
town have no reason to be confident because they aren't informed

Yea, but as scum it's nice to have things laid out in a way you can flip on easily without making something up.

This is true, but I generally like to seem like I have more of a plan as scum. "This player, but if it's not this player, then it's this and this." Very logical and detached, seem like I know what I'm talking about. I usually tie the logic to a flip that isn't going to happen, as well, so I can be as confident and active as I want, seem all helpful, but not actually be doing anything.

As town, I tend to err on the side of "There's 1,000 possibilities and I only slightly favor this one at the moment." At least in early play. I created this account with the intent to project more false confidence in my early play to see how it treats me, but ended up going with a different playstyle and haven't really gotten that confidence thing going yet.

[Fidget]

shellyc
Tayl0r
Noraa
Lapsa
Adorable

This list is all low hanging fruit, any of these people could die and everyone would shrug. No one on this list is going to present too much of an obstacle to put them on this list.

Can I change my tswift vote to Fidget?

I should probably also add that Gloria, UNOwen, Zdenek, Theta, Flea, and yourself could be considered LHF if you want to stretch the term. At least, they were when I was actively reading the thread. I also do not consider tayl0r to be low hanging fruit.

Pooky, Murdercat, Bell, Mush, and LLD are strong players, yes, but I also feel they are town. So, I suppose that is just how it is.

pedit: There is your answer, then.

fidget what is your definition of a strong player

also do you have a read on vaxkiller atm

I mean it as a compliment more than anything. I think, in general at least within the context of LHF, I mean strong as in "will resist elimination well" (Such as in Pooky's case) or "projects towniness well" (Such as in Mush's case).

No. I have not seen many of their posts yet.

[Fidget]

Fidget, why is mush town? Like he was lurking then he posts 1 post and everyone is like, oh wow mush graced us with his town presence. I didnt really get it.

It is my understanding that Mush has a very distinct way of playing town that she cannot replicate as scum, and those who played with her recently picked up on that early on.

I have not observed Mush lurking, she was generally present at the beginning of the game.

Additionally, I like her posting on Noraa being town, it came across as genuine and not scum white-knighting to me. I generally find myself nodding in agreement with Mush which doesn't hurt as well.

[Fidget]

pooky/bell are also not LHF. do you think everyone's LHF atm??

Maybe I shouldn't be using LHF term.

I feel like, save for 5 people or so, mostly everyone would shrug if they killed someone, and there would be little resistance.

This is why I do not find your point that my list is "Mostly LHF" to be very compelling. You could say that for many here.

I can understand your point about me being less than committal to scumreads, however. This is something that typically improves from me as the game goes on. I usually will focus on town first.

This is true, but I generally like to seem like I have more of a plan as scum. "This player, but if it's not this player, then it's this and this." Very logical and detached, seem like I know what I'm talking about. I usually tie the logic to a flip that isn't going to happen, as well, so I can be as confident and active as I want, seem all helpful, but not actually be doing anything.

Ah yes, I forgot something I wanted to add. Reading Noraa accusing me of doing pre-flip association work earlier was actually the moment I first stopped to think harder about her being town.

She could not have known that is something I do as scum personally, but it did take me aback because that is something I very much like to do as scum. Some of Noraa's reads (LLD/Murder) were emotionally driven and unfounded but I do not believe that to be as much of the case when it comes to her read on me. I was somewhat lazy to conclude Adorable!scum off of awkward association with Noraa, perhaps a bit too quick on the draw.

[Fidget]

fidget do you see what I am seeing with 3440 being scum not understanding why a “lurker” town is UTR’d

I agree that Vax is missing a lot behind the townreads on Mush, and I think their characterization of them being a lurker is not so accurate.

Is there something about the scum alignment that causes someone to miss town reasoning for someone they perceive to be a lurker?

[Fidget]

Ah yes, I forgot something I wanted to add. Reading Noraa accusing me of doing pre-flip association work earlier was actually the moment I first stopped to think harder about her being town.

She could not have known that is something I do as scum personally, but it did take me aback because that is something I very much like to do as scum. Some of Noraa's reads (LLD/Murder) were emotionally driven and unfounded but I do not believe that to be as much of the case when it comes to her read on me. I was somewhat lazy to conclude Adorable!scum off of awkward association with Noraa, perhaps a bit too quick on the draw.

so do you think adoranoraa is still a thing since they're in your list or is the thought just weakened

I might remove Noraa from the list entirely to be completely honest with you. I'm starting to become more and more favorable to seeing Adorable chopped.

Their interactions were somewhat awkward yes. I'd review it after a scumflip from them but not probably bother with it before then.

Noraa I think is not a bad elimination but I actually feel I'd be more surprised than not seeing a scumflip from them. However, she is not a bad elim simply because of how polarizing her slot was and we can go back and analyze the early game knowing she was town.

Adorable I just generally am starting to bet more and more on being scum. A bit worried she's LHF, but also see no reason to think she is town yet.

[Fidget]

can you explain adora SR and not just uhhh state that "she's not town"

I would say with most slots, I have find places where I am agreeing with their reasoning at some point in the game or another. Somewhere I am going to nod in agreement, or at least see something they're doing that is protown.

I just got done looking through Adorable's 15 post ISO a bit ago. All five of her scumreads are the same "they're voting for me" scumread, hilariously enough. The only one that is slightly different is Noraa, but of course that is just going along with the rest of the thread. Her Hopkirk townread is not terribly persuasive to me, either.

[Fidget]

What motive does Adorable scum have to switch things up with a Vax scumread when she could just stick to her guns and go reasonably unchallenged?

I suppose I don't see what's so special about Adorable's Vaxkiller read. It reads the same as all of her other scumreads to me.

[Fidget]

You SR me but keep using me against Adorable which is interesting considering I've thrown shade at her because I dislike some things that I hear from her but I do think she's town yet you are taking my shade and turning it into SRs.

What? You specifically aren't important to my Adorable read, nor has anything you said been.

Shelly is pocketing fidget. Clear as day what's happening there. My brain just went *snip snip snip* byeeeee
And then UNO comes in and blah blah blah blah. My brain dont wanna read it this beautiful fine morning so sucks to suck, Im not reading it cuz I got other threads to check.

It's not working very well then, since I'm considering shooting her.

Again fair. My reads were vague and basically non-existent. I thought we were about to enter a stage with much more information than usual this early in the game due to the massive Noraa push. I like to go one step at a time. Treating Noraa as confirmed scum and then scum hunting with that in mind is alien to me. Allowing other players to get away with that is also alien to me.

why are you so defeatist, because your partner noraa is dead as a doornail

3475 feels like fluff filling space with words

You still seem unrealistically sure that Noraa is scum here. I do not get it.

[Fidget]

Fidget is probably scum imo.

Just based on her reads and presentation.

We have a lot of lurkers though so this is going to be a pain.

I guess this is a request to scrutinize her posts more.

That is disappointing to hear

[Fidget]

I’m sorry.
You’re thinking out loud a lot and spending more time trying to look town than be town. You’re a little more down to earth and matter of fact when you’re town imo.

Writing down what I think as I think it is a huge characteristic of my play, as I feel it's the most effective way to prove you are town, since it would be difficult to write stream of consciousness as scum. Hurts my scum play because I cannot replicate it, but I do not mind.

Not sure if I do it as much on this account or not, my voice is somewhat different and my playstyle was originally intended to be as well. But if that's what you're noticing, well, you're noticing my town play. I'm not sure what you mean by I'm more down to earth / matter of fact as town, or how that conflicts with thinking out loud.

[Fidget]

We've played a few times.

[Fidget]

I think there’s just less thinking out loud and more engagement in a clear manner toward other players?
Not saying you’re not engaged just that you seem to be engaging people less and thinking out loud more.

Well I guess that explains why you addressed my concerns directly rather than asking for clarification.

It’s not a voting phase, so relax.

I'm not really sure what we're referring to anymore.

In any case, I'm only disappointed because I feel pretty good about you being town and I was hoping we had something special with the shelly read.

[Fidget]

Hopkirk, how easily would you say you find it to try hard or have high WIM as scum?

[Fidget]

They kind of directly tripped me up and I’ve immediately started doubting myself.
That’s not hard to do though lol.

Feel like you do that a lot. In fact, I feel like I've tripped you up on complete accident in a past game, having no idea what I said. I think you're referring to me, anyway.

You'd be correct to do so in this case, but still.

[Fidget]

uh its kinda subtle but that post from noraa is very unlikely to come from scum. shes pushing fidget who had been largely townread or ignored. noraa as scum generally goes with the flow more and tries to buddy/pocket.

my top SR is Fidget and it has wavered a tiny bit due to her recent posting which I find a bit townier than before but I still do think that slot is prolly scum and I believe for the most part, people agree that slot is scum.

???

You call this against the flow?

[Fidget]

God, Taylor, WHY
I was so damn confident in my TR of you and now its all come crashing down. You have successfully made me extremely paranoid.
In trials, I got pocketed by you so easily its not even funny because I literally BELIEVED that you thought I was truly town and I was happy you could read me. But now you pull almost the exact same play.
I sincerely can't tell if this is town!Taylor being bold and thinking I can still tell you are town thru the paranoid or if this is scum!Taylor purposefully toying with my reads.

Did you really think you could locktown tayl0r off her defending you?

I want to pick a 1v1 with one of the many people scumreading me so I can have something to focus on. If I disregard tayl0r's reaction to LLD, maybe it'll be her. Off the top of my head, she's been fairly high effort which she will do as scum (as demonstrated in Trials), white knighted Noraa in a way that didn't obvtown her for me like it did Mush, is probably incorrectly scumreading Bell/Pooky, and is now 180ing on me so I feel more emotionally involved in it (that's not a point against her, but it does make me more interested). Beyond that I'd have to actually go back and read.

Or maybe that's a silly endeavor and shelly!scum is the way. I'll figure it out later.

[Fidget]

On your last paragraph you said I town slipped in every game I have played with you and what you said is a lie because I have never played any games with you. Hopkirk asked you if you're an alt and you said no. I have around 13-15 completed games and I have only town slipped in 2 games.

Do you actually think I would lie about having experience with you? How does that make any sense?

You have responded to a fake hammer and accidentally spewed yourself town in one game, and in other game you were just really unaware of the scum functioned and there was a large debate about whether you were faking and I was inclined to believe you weren't. I have played two games with you where you were town and you townslipped in both, so I seriously doubt you only have done it twice. As scum, you did not come close to doing such a thing.

You have mentioned in the past that meta is a bad tell for you because you like to shift it around, so I am attacking the quality of your reads instead. All five are the same read:

"Do not like how they: switched to voting me / kept their vote on me after X happened / suspect me."

On your list of 5 players you named I did not like how you put 2 of my town reads on your list and you also put me on your list. What were the games you have played with me before? I have never played with anyone before by the name of Fidget.

This is your main grievance with me? The scumread is stemming from this?

[Fidget]

^the above post makes me feel you aren't a noob but you gave off so many noob vibes early on.
Also you are 10/10 lurking confirmed. You rarely post and each time you do the bare bare minimum of just HEY you pinged me in the server so I'll reply.
I have pushed Fidget the most. Toog changed to a TR. Shelly is still scummy but I dont wanna deal with her atm. I have other SRs as well but anyways, you are still a TR but I fail to understand why you do a lot of things you do.

As I have said, Adorable is not a noob. Do not underestimate her. She is capable of coming to play, I witnessed it in her scum game, although she was locked in a 1v1 with someone for the majority of it.

Adorable makes a good point about Fidget's meta being a bit muddled. She speaks as though she has a bit of experience with Adorable as both alignments and acknowledges that Adorable's reads are reactive in this game but claims to not be familiar enough to know if this is AI, but I would think even a couple of games experience would be enough to have an idea.

I don't really see a scum case for Fidget beyond that though, was not a fan of the way she positioned around a Noraa scum flip that she was willing to put in third but plenty of players did that. She seems rational and cautious otherwise which I don't find compellingly scummy behaviour.

Adorable hard 1v1'd someone as scum for the majority of her time (it was OMGUS to be fair), and in her town games I do not really remember what her reads were. They were not really what struck me about her.

bell and pooky, what are your reads on fidget?

I thought she was scum but then she said she was disappointed in me and I never, ever want to disappoint someone. :(

;-;

[Fidget]

There shouldn't be such a thing as town leader. Said person won't last long if they are aligned with town, and is probably scum (or helping scum's agenda) if they live a long time.

PEDIT: Only on mafiascum can you freely walk around gloating about killing pandas.

If scum strikes such a person down, that information is valuable to us.

[Fidget]

Nora is a miserable person?

No, she isn't.

@Fidget I have never played with anyone by the name of Fidget. Hopkirk asked you if you're an alt and you said no. I have now figured out you are an alt and I now know who your main is. You said you iso me and you should have known #2021 was the first time I started to get sus of you and this happened before the scroll was passed to Toogeloo. #3457 was one of your newest posts you made and it looked like you are scum reading me because you are agreeing with other players and you don't find yourself agreeing with me. You should know that town are the ones who develop their own reads while scum will agree with other players. I also did not like how you did not do a follow up to your question when you first asked me a question and you didn't even engage more with me afterwards.

I don't like talking about meta and completed games and the game you mentioned where I hard 1vs1 with someone as scum was because 3 vt claims were the ones who were getting suspected the most and I was one of those players who was in the 3 vt claims. You also mentioned you don't remember what were my reads in my town games with you and my reads were omgus in my town games with you.

Sweet, okay I figured that might give it away, so please don't expose me.

I don't recall telling Hopkirk I'm not an alt. I thought I told him I've played with him before. Anyways, I don't get any of your reasons for scumreading me much but that's alright. I see that you're openly admitting you OMGUS in your town games, so it seems you're self aware of it, then.

[Fidget]

Fidget, you think adorable is scum? why?

Reads are very shallow and OMGUS-y, to the point of ridiculousness (3426). And this is a weaker point, but I generally will townread Adorable because she townslips at some point or says something that sounds really innocent, and just she hasn't done it. I guess she just doesn't exude town as I'm used to her doing.

I feel I still prefer shelly to Adorable because she has way more content than Adorbs and I can see see her flipping scum.

[Fidget]

The thing that pisses me off about toog is like everyone acknowledged they were killing town.

Half the thread is misinterpreting this post, I believe. Vax is annoyed that everyone allowed Toog to pass the scroll to them. I do not believe they are saying they're annoyed that Toog got the scroll.

The thing that pisses me off about toog is like everyone acknowledged they were killing town.

while vax did not show opposition to that wagon

this sounds really lamist. if you were really concerned that toog was town you should have done more.

So you're saying Vax is town before the flip?

oh yay did we get vax

that's a scumslot imo

Somebody kill this individual. Do you actually believe this?

[Fidget]

This isnt a game of "who has the best reads, big ego pooky or big ego murder"

MC why is this a scum-slip? :3

You see Noraa, it assumes that Pooky and I are both town. I believe you are scum reading Pooky though, is that correct?

no, it doesn't assume that both are town.
I am SL-ing porky, yes

Yes, it does.

At least for a non-Noraa player. Maybe you didn't.

So we didn't kill Noraa or shelly, huh

[Fidget]

I think Vaxkiller is scum. Vax said he wants to keep Hopkirk around and then he changes his mind and says he wants to keep Hopkirk in the dead thread with him. So wait a minute, did Vaxkiller lean town on Hopkirk when he made this post on wanting to keep Hopkirk around?

It's a play on words.

I have some things to do that are solely based off of this last flip bc I'm fairly sold on toog and vax town.

Good

I'm reading shelly reacting to being hurted..

Deciding whether or not to take a 1 for 1 with shelly tomorrow...

As SOON as I saw that placeholder votes existed, I knew that was going to be used for a fake-out. I would have been prepared to do a fake show in response to one if I were scum. Shelly's smart, she'd also be ready. She's also clearly more invested in this game than I am, yet she actually thought that killed her. I don't think I buy that she didn't know.

Will do some reviewing after the flips, but I'm potentially ready to take a shot here.

[Fidget]

I don't think Shelly flips scum here.

Of shelly Pooky I think Pooky is more likely scum

Willing to become enlightened if thread generally doesn't want shelly. Maybe.

We all see shelly making no attempt to convince Vax to pass the scroll to "practically confirmed scum" (or whatever hyperbole she was using) Noraa right?

As always, she is ridiculously confident Noraa is scum.

If pooky flips red, I'm 10000% cleared.
pooky/noraa solve is a huge joke. legit. like a really bad and cringey joke too.

Why do you care so much that Murder is putting you and Pooky together?

[Fidget]

Anyone seen Fidget? Anyone at all?

I want to sit down and read what's happened before I start posting, but unfortunately I haven't really had that opportunity yet

I don't even know who Fred replaced. I checked, it's Zdenek. Okay.

I'm really surprised Noraa doesn't scumread Fred (instead opting to vote Flea ig) considering the only thing I've noticed from his posting is that he wants Noraa dead. Well, I see actually that Noraa is down for a Fred wagon but just voted Flea instead for some reason, so nevermind I suppose.

wow we're letting scum drive another wagon.

the fact that most scum have pooky but not bell on their lists is interesting. suggests that pooky really is town. similar wrt shelly. so who is the last scum? hmm.

The wagon that... Pooky and shelly are both on?

[Fidget]

I will echo Fred/Gloria/Mush's sentiment that the thread will generally be better off with less spammy content.

VOTE: Fredrick

i'll vote anywhere in uno/noraa/fred/taylor. maybe fidget especially if she wants to 1v1 with me.

VOTE: shellyc

K let's do it

I just doublechecked Fred's ISO to be sure I wasn't asspulling the above post and SURE ENOUGH! Literally no pressure has been anywhere but on Noraa. Surprisingly enough, the pressure itself is absolute garbage -- I was giving Fred such a pass that I didn't realize that Fred is voting a slot for /no goddamn reason/, no case presented, literally just picking at supposed "contradictions" that don't even add up to anything even /if/ you assume they're from scum. Too bad that not even "assuming scum" holds here when Fred's arguing in favor of people townreading the very fucking slot the pressure is on. It's a totally incoherent mess of an ISO and it isn't even aimed in a singular direction.

Like, I look at the post Fred wants replies to and I go "wow if I was in the line of fire here I'd ignore your nonsense too".

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

fred is scum based off newb 2025 +1 to that I think.

so. yeah. taylor -> pooky -> noraa gets rid of 2 scum.

fred sounds really pedantic and really excusey imo

Bell continues to go upwards in my reads, I'll join you on fred if needed

I'd like to hear more about your point that Fred is scum based off of 2025, if you wouldn't mind.

kill taylor

she will kill me

i will kill noraa

that's like half the top 5 gone

The issue with this plan is that we're supposed to use the scroll to kill scum.

So my current status .. I do trust Bell, Mush, and Pooky with the Fred wagon. Even if that slot is scum my shelly read probably doesn't even change because she loves bussing, though. I probably will endorse both unless I decide I don't like the Fred reasoning, haven't checked his posts yet.

Feels like scum won't ever get hit by the first scroll unless they specifically allow themselves to. Scroll bounce 2 and 3 are critical and the main place I'm really hoping for scum flips. That being said, perhaps Fred wagon is town (except maybe shelly) and he's too far gone for scum to save.

Spoiler:

don't kill
PookyTheMagicalBear
Bell
MURDERCAT
MUSHSHAGANA
Lady Lambdadelta

leaning dont kill
Noraa
Lapsa
Tayl0r Swift

don't know yet
Gloria Cleary
Theta Alpine
Fredrick A Campbell(Zdenek)
Titus(VaultDweller)
UNOwen
Flea The Magician
Adorable

kill
shellyc

[Fidget]

I will echo Fred/Gloria/Mush's sentiment that the thread will generally be better off with less spammy content.

Ok so I've actually noticed this argument a few times now and I think there's something I think about this that needs to be expressed.
This opinion is dumb imo :/
I mean this in the nicest way possible but like .... we fucked up day 1. Policy lims are NOT the way to go.
If anyone disagrees, talk to me about it. I prolly also think ur dumb tho :P

What are you talking about?

[Fidget]

Fidget what's ur read on me again? it seems you keep throwing shade on me for bad reasons, go back and then suddenly "realize" that I didn't say whatever u accused me of.

Disagree, I think most of the shade that has been thrown your way this game has been justified. You're one scummy boi.

I don't really know what you're referring to with the second sentence. You are guilty of everything I have ever pointed out about you, as well as most of what everyone else has said.

The only thing that's changing is my thoughts about whether or not you're scum. I would say my differing opinion as of late mostly resulted from A.) changing my mind about your WIM being scummy and B.) Shelly's read on you weirding me out

[Fidget]

kill taylor

she will kill me

i will kill noraa

that's like half the top 5 gone

The issue with this plan is that we're supposed to use the scroll to kill scum.

Noraa I think you may have missed this.

[Fidget]

Noraa's play has been confusing me and that 180 she did earlier on me when Toogeloo was holding the scroll was sus. Her post on #3942 about Hopkirk also looked like scum shading him. So from what I gathered, scum Noraa likes to put pressure on players and she has been doing that in this game and

town Noraa doesn't put pressure

.

VOTE: Noraa

Seriously, wtf kind of meta read is this? What townie ever plays the way you’re suggesting? That’s practically anti-wincon.

That read means practically nothing. Unless I'm seriously misunderstanding what Adorable means by "pressure". Votes are meant to carry pressure, and Noraa has been using hers.

I'm really surprised Noraa doesn't scumread Fred (instead opting to vote Flea ig) considering the only thing I've noticed from his posting is that he wants Noraa dead. Well, I see actually that Noraa is down for a Fred wagon but just voted Flea instead for some reason, so nevermind I suppose.

Ok I just went back and am reading up from around here. This post didn't ping me first time round but I actually really dislike it.
Lemme say y
Im really surprised Noraa doesn't SR Fred is 10000000000000% saying she knows I'm town. The reason is that everyone that's played with town!me before knows that I have to try extremely hard to not OMGUS and this is legit shown in all of my games.

This is unlike the Pooky and Murder thing. Because I believe that wasn't saying both are town bc scum have reads as well technically speaking so I didn't believe that to be AI

However, Fidget is specifically pointing at a trait that town!me has and scum!me has but a lot a lot less.

Idk I believe this sentence to be low-key TMI

It's not TMI, it's my writing style. I write out what I'm thinking as it comes out and I don't usually go back over it much.

I don't really know what trait you're referring to meta-wise. I have played with you before yes, but I am not capable of reading your mind no.

Are you saying you hard tr Noraa now?

I'm getting there.

/effortpost

PookyTheMagicalBear - how is this slot ever scum? hyperfocusing on taylor a pretty bad strategy as scum because taylor venges hyposcum!pooky any day. also overall giving me a hugely solvey tone, was the catalyst of the noraa wagon
Tayl0r Swift - tswift/fidget prob not s/s but I'm inclined to sheep pooky a bit here, but taylors posting recently has been pretty lackluster. scum taylor hates bussing so maybe there's a scum!taylor WKing scumbuddy world out there
Gloria Cleary - v/la and gave me some gut townvibes earlier
shellyc - obvtown
Theta Alpine - i think their posting seems really consensus-y and feels like their trying to stay under the radar, in my poe but would probably not be top priority
Bell - I'm pretty torn here, was SR there but has been weakened especially with the flips and the taylor/fred pushing. Would not scroll today probably, I'm confident in sorting there later on
Fredrick A Campbell - really scummy play throughout, being reactive and pedantic, and not really engaging at all
Titus - i think their earlier posting upon rep-in was pretty proactive so townlean for that, waiting on VCA
MURDERCAT - closest thing to town leader we have aorn. town since gamestart
UNOwen - total scumbucket here with no engagement unlike their towngame which was relatively solvey as the game went on, UNO has really dropped off a cliff, top priority today if i wasn't duelling with fidget.
MUSHSHAGANA - will not vote here and is totally playing to their town!meta
Flea The Magician - null, gamestart posting was in a rather good tone but has been under-the-radar for a long time. will reread.
Adorable - haven't seen them post in ages. adora/noraa isn't s/s
Lady Lambdadelta - closest thing to conftown when noraa flips red
Noraa - ehhhh? actually, im reconsidering here given some of the recent posting was high effort and i think town!noraa is higher effort than scum!noraa? will reread but will join noraa wagon anytime
Lapsa - lurker will policy anytime
Fidget - in 1v1 with this slot. probscum given the vax!green flip as well.

I can't wait to shoot you.

Just kidding, I'm not sure yet so I'll read what you've got.

I think you are right to drop your Noraa suspicions, if that's what you're doing. Obviously I agree Pooky/Murder/LLD/Mushy are obvtown -- I add Bell in too though.

Your solve is roughly.. Noraa/Adorable + Frederick + UNOwen + 2 of (Theta/Laspa/Taylor/Flea) ? Okay, it's believable but I find most everything that excludes the obvtown believable.

Putting it down as Noraa /or/ Adorable is fair. Still haven't reviewed through the slots that weren't active when I was. My play has become so Noraa-centric, how annoying.

[Fidget]

I feel like I have about a coin flip's chance of hitting scum at the moment if I go for the boring "shoot inside {Gloria/Theta/Fred/Titus/UNOwen/Flea/Lapsa}" plan. You probably got 3 or 4 in there.

Or I could shoot shellyc or Taylor, which would take a lot more forethought to do because there are no guarantees there.

[Fidget]

I have read almost none of your posts Gloria

[Fidget]

I have read almost none of your posts Gloria

But you’d still want to kill me. How exactly are you town here?

Oh and Shelley, another slot you’d like to kill actually has, because she’s probably town. :roll:

You’re just really lucky that Fred is even scummier than you.

I don't want to kill you. I want to kill scum within that group of ~8ish people, which includes you. I have fallen hopelessly behind, so my plan is to identify a really good candidate in there before my inevitable demise. That group consists largely of people whose posts I just haven't seen because they weren't around when I was. Shelly/Tayl0r is the group I'm actively paranoid of.

[Fidget]

For what it's worth I like your comments on Noraa's emotional range being outside of what she's capable as when scum. Spat with Pooky.. I think you were correct in the argument but I didn't draw Pooky!scum from it. His interesting Taylor read probably comes from town. Did you come to the conclusion that Pooky was town after a while? Or am I interpreting this incorrectly?

fred you're online come here

i consider this to be ellitelling btw

Ellitelling is more often than not unreliable especially in a game where it’s almost impossible to ever catch up. I didn’t even bother to read the 50++ pages since I got back.

I have no clue as to his alignment but ellitelling in a game like this, absolutely won’t help us determine it.

Oh so you do understand.

You do realize that I've read hardly anything from the period where you've been an active poster, right? And I mainly inhabited the first 50 pages where you weren't here? Or have I just been oblivious to you? I am sorry if so.

[Fidget]

Fred sounds like he’s just making excuses not to do anything because Fidget is putting more effort into trying to affect the game but not in a protown kind of way, so I see her as more dangerous if that makes any sense.

Hehe, I like this explanation

[Fidget]

I have read almost none of your posts Gloria

But you’d still want to kill me. How exactly are you town here?

Oh and Shelley, another slot you’d like to kill actually has, because she’s probably town. :roll:

You’re just really lucky that Fred is even scummier than you.

I don't want to kill you. I want to kill scum within that group of ~8ish people, which includes you. I have fallen hopelessly behind, so my plan is to identify a really good candidate in there before my inevitable demise. That group consists largely of people whose posts I just haven't seen because they weren't around when I was. Shelly/Tayl0r is the group I'm actively paranoid of.

But why would you even have a slot in your PoE who’s posts you just admitted to not reading? I don’t understand how that comes from a town mindset?

You shouldn’t have anyone in your PoE who’s posts you haven’t read.

Alright well, tell me why then. What are the reasons you’re paranoid on those two slots? I do have to give you some props for finally coming around on Noraa but that’s what I didn’t get, how you hard tr Noraa and have me in your PoE. So, it looked to me that you were targeting me for being a low activity slot. Maybe I’m wrong on you then?

We probably treat PoE differently then. If I have zero information on someone, why in god's name would I cross them out of my PoE? I'm not only going to consider the slots I know something about, I will also consider the ones I don't know anything about. That's kind of partly why they're in the PoE. Tells me where I should look.

I feel like I define it more as "Don't townread" and maybe you see as more of a scumread type deal. Which is understandable.

Shelly is exceptionally familiar with Noraa's scumplay. They've been scum together at least twice to my knowledge. And yet, shelly is comically certain that Noraa is scum here. Like, really certain. I don't know if that is still the case, but it was at least a little while ago. Additionally, I have noticed that shelly has absurd confidence in her reads as scum. However, I do figure she probably plays really confidently in general, so that's a weaker point. Also, that reaction to being fakeshot by Vax was unbelievable. I outlined that in a diff post, but essentially, I find it hard to believe shelly (who's been extremely engaged) fell for it when even I (who isn't really) wouldn't have fallen for it

I felt Pooky obvtowned early in the game and for whatever reason Taylor is certain he is scum. I know that Taylor tryhards as scum pretty consistently, and I recall some really tryhardy stuff a while back. She's got 3, maybe 4 townies at the minimum in her PoE that I can see off the bat (

fidget

,

pooky

, uno, titus,

bell

). Mayyybe Titus but that's based of a very weak townlean. I will admit I'm also probably biased because she scumreads me hard but we haven't even spoken really, which I'm realizing now because I've enjoyed talking with you, Vax, and Bell when all you openly suspected me. Taylor I guess I just never got the chance to talk to. It doesn't help she tryharded and beat me in a game I just finished w/ her

I did feel like townleaning Taylor earlier off her reaction to LLD, but I decided that the LLD has been treating some other players would be generally really frustrating for any alignment.

Overall I feel more comfortable going for that group of 7-8 because I feel like I'll be able to get a better scumread than I'm getting with these two, but if I had to guess scum in the very most active players, I'd probably say it's one of these two.

[Fidget]

From other players reactions, I'm under the impression Fred is not a widely feared scum player and probably doesn't like it very much. Perhaps I'm getting that confused with something I saw elsewhere, though, correct me if I just made that up.

I swear I didn't have to check who Fred replaced.

I can't exactly hate on Fred for tunneling Noraa (I have focused on 1-2 players in the past as a way with dealing with information overload), but I guess that is all he did at first. I see that his ISO is mostly asking people questions and stating he has no opinion on things (after saying he went back to read them). Conflicted on whether to sympathize with him for not being able to get into the game, or to just take it as scummy that he can't find anything to say. Could do both I guess. I certainly don't oppose the elim.

[Fidget]

I'm all for targeting the more "dangerous" slot first! Why I'm voting shelly.

Maybe not with my scroll shot, though. I don't know if I have the courage, because if I throw it at taylor or shelly and they're green, I feel at least 3-5 people are gonna go "They were obvtown dumbass". Gotta protect my feelings.

..that's a lame way to play. Shouldn't talk myself down like that. I actually did that with a dayvig shot in a game a while back! Stupid me

[Fidget]

fidget 4373 feels so lamisty

not sure how much we should trust hopkirk reads tbh

I'm still feeling pretty terrible so will skim/low-effort for the next day or so

I really like Gloria categorizing me as dangerous scum in comparison to Fred. Even if it's not a compliment really, I guess I just like the word choice.

i forgot about the rule and tend to overreact to pressure so eh...

also my SR on noraa has been continually weakened, i spot a town!AI noraa metatell in their recent posting and the trajectories seem pretty well-reasoned, a deviation from the earlier thrown-out reads, which is making me doubt myself.

Yeah I did like your reads list not having Noraa as lockscum anymore, at least.

if you're not gonna shoot the scum only you can see with your scroll what r u supposed to shoot

You are correct, of course. That is how I should think of it.

[Fidget]

@Fidget, I forgot to respond to your Pooky question. Yeah, I’m reading his Tayl0r push as more deathtunnelling then scum pursuing a miselim.

I don’t think that scum!Pooky would continue to tunnel Tayl0r this confidently or single mindedly as scum. That said, by continuing to rail “Tayl0r is scum!” isn’t going to convince anyone of anything, so Fred - irrespective of alignment - isn’t wrong about Pooky needing to make some kind of a case against her because rn. I’m reading it as TvT.

Very nice

Also, I skimmed The Trials, so I understand where his “speeding train” thing is based from, which I didn’t when I initially voted him.

I think she’s making too many trs + her reaction to LLD, which makes me lean town on her but I’d need to see a convincing case to consider changing that read.

That's understandable, I felt that originally with regards to her reaction.

Did Taylor have a bias against townreads in that game? Hm.

[Fidget]

Thanks Pooky I like you too

All it takes is hitting scum with the first bounce, then getting a clutch third bounce to pull this game back in town's sights. I guess accepting that I might get the scroll isn't very helpful to that strategy, though, so I'm part of that apathy problem.

I think we're probably not getting a first bounce scum until there are less scum around. Unless there's just scum that's been obvscum and they opt to bus that person. I think turning a blind eye to that slot would be more beneficial to them, though.

pedit: I sincerely hope Fred is that obvscum. From what I recall I liked most of the people voting him but let me check.

[5] Fredrick A Campbell: Bell, MUSHSHAGANA, PookyTheMagicalBear, shellyc, Flea The Magician

(+ I assume Gloria)

Okay, okay heavy town presence early I think, at least. Could definitely work.

[Fidget]

ehh

fidget seems to be commenting on the wagon being "heavy town presence" but not jumping on which is weirding me out

In a scummy way? I'd love to hear some elaboration on how it makes you feel.

[Fidget]

In a scummy way? I'd love to hear some elaboration on how it makes you feel.

yeah

normally i'd assume you jump on a wagon in which your TRs are voting, so fidget seems to be subtly encouraging the wagon for whatever reason while staying off it?
which is a red flag if fred flips town. but if its fred!scum this feels like bussing without even getting cred.

I see. I forgot about scum purposefully staying off town wagons, so I was about to say something pretty dumb sounding.

So yes to clarify, I find Fred scummy at worst, not towny at best, and I endorse his wagon. I really want him to be scum for town's chances of winning this. That being said it feels somewhat cheap of me to rush ending the day without having an opinion on at least 6-7 suspects of mine, so I'm holding off for now. Just like how I felt with Noraa D1, I trust that that he isn't going anywhere regardless of whether or not I vote.

[Fidget]

I am asking Bell to prove that I am pretending to scum hunt. Asking me to prove myself as town without a case is like asking a suspect to prove their innocence when you have no evidence to convict them.

As for me being reactive, yeah, I am. What is your point?

Postscript: I am working on a post in response to MUSHSHAGANA'S first argument for me being scum in post 3637.

mafia isn't a court trial
i'd expect town!you to be much more proactive than here ftr, especially with a first day T->T->T pass

Even if Fred is a replacement who is clearly having trouble getting his footing? What makes you so sure we don't see this from town!Fred as well?

I am mostly curious to hear your reasoning than anything, because I think it could be scum indictative.

Pooky - SL, slot isn't sitting well with me, seems to be mostly shitposting and taunting.

notably scum!pooky sounds more friendly/likeable/etc

where do you think the shitposting is happening? and why is it scummy? policy all spammers is terrible

I, too, am reading Pooky's prickliness as towny.

I notice while reading through it feels like some of Fred comments don't seem important to me, but have the potential to seem important to him. Either he is having trouble scumhunting as Bell says, or maybe I am just on a different wave length. Here's what I mean for example:

thats uncalled for

If you were offended by the phrase "you aren't this dumb," it is rather strange.

This doesn't seem like a very important observation, but perhaps Fred is hinting at that he finds Taylor's reaction fake and that's his way of conveying that.

I see a lot of potential for the awkward-feel just flipping scum, but it is also a pretty easy thing to jump on. I bet I could find a bunch of things to attack for being "unhelpful" if I wanted to.

[Fidget]

That's what I said earlier and Noraa is putting pressure in this game. I did not read her completed games and I only quickly skimmed 2 of her scum games and 2 of her town games to see what her votes looked like. In 2 of her scum games I quickly skimmed she used by the lines of, "I would like to put pressure or I will put some pressure on you." When I quickly skimmed through 2 of her town games to see what her votes looked like, she did not mention the word pressure when she placed her votes.

uhhhhh ur gonna SR me for how I word things? That's kinda bad to begin with plus those are prolly outdated or something anyways cuz im overgamed which means I rack up games really fast. No, my light SR on Fred is there. Never called him town. I just believe there is that possibility and my SR there is weak anyways so eh.

That Adorable read is batshit crazy

I'll never vote Pooky this game, I feel increasingly confident he wouldn't get this unhappy (or pretend to be this unhappy) as scum

trying to argue that fred is a scum slot doesnt really work either. fred is pretty null and should be scrolled second.

Based on his posts, he’d probably give you the scroll in that case (possibly Noraa?). I really don’t understand this take from you. Why would you want him to get the second scroll and who is your preference for first?

I just realized something really scary. Ok its a theory and idk if its right BUT I feel like scum!Taylor would want her buddy to go second because T -> S -> T makes sure that S -> T -> S doesn't happen.

I like your thinking, although I'm not sure Taylor would do something that 'bold'. Seems a bit high risk for the reward to me, I doubt scum!Taylor can really hope that a blank statement like that changes the scroll order. But I also really don't want to count Fred/Taylor out because that sits very nicely with my reads so mm.

I see Bell's pet theory on Fred/Taylor and Mush's big case on Fred. Is the guy just obvscum and I'm giving him too much of a chance? Lol

(about Flea)

Very interesting that there is exactly, I repeat EXACTLY five SRs. This may be a bad way to judge but generally I find that only careful scum will have exactly the number of scum SRs.

Sounds crazy but could be true actually.

VOTE: Fred

I'm willing to go with you and bell today because I took my shot D1 and missed.

You'll get em next time Murder.

Flea calling Pooky playful is kinda a lol.

Overall I find myself wanting to shoot Adorable a little more, still not decided on Flea, and I really don't want to kill Noraa.

[Fidget]

If any of Murder/Pooky/Noraa get the scroll and they pass it to each other I'm throwing in the towel probably.

As I read the part with Murder casing Pooky (I guess) and Bell begging for Murder to vote fred, I notice that the Fred wagon is stalling hard. It got to.. just 5 votes?

I feel, as I said earlier, a non-bussing game could be really good for scum.

[5]

Fredrick A Campbell:

Bell

,

MUSHSHAGANA

, Flea The Magician,

PookyTheMagicalBear

, UNOwen

[2]

Noraa:

Titus, Adorable

[2]

Tayl0r Swift:

Fredrick A Campbell

, shellyc

[1]

Fidget:

Tayl0r Swift

[1] Adorable:

Theta Alpine

[1] shellyc:

Fidget

[1]

PookyTheMagicalBear:

Noraa

[4] Not Voting:

MURDERCAT

,

Lady Lambdadelta

, Lapsa,

Gloria Cleary

Looking at it with my townreads added in, it seems plausible. I more and more get the feeling Taylor and Fred aren't partnered from their interactions.

I feel inclined to trust Gloria/whoever elses' opinions on Titus being in her town meta.

Adorable does not feel good to me at all.

Shellyc loves to bus, she is all about the towncred. She jumped down Fred's throat very early if I recall correctly. Still hate the reaction to being hurt. But I am not terribly put off by most of her reads and some things make me reconsider. Although when you have a great amount of content, I suppose that is bound to happen.

fred you're online come here

i consider this to be ellitelling btw

You know, with 17 players left in this game, I really would appreciate it if everyone only post if they have something meaningful to say. Below is an example of completely inessential conversation that could have been done using the site chat. Please use the site chat for conversations like this. You won't get banned. It's not game related.

Fredrick: complains about no game advancing content
Fredrick again: Doesn't give game advancing content at all

lol
fred order these names from town->scum NOW
fidget
taylor
theta
bell
gloria

This is just how I'd expect shelly to talk to a scum partner who's under even moderate fire lol. Not totally convinced yet but this does pique my interest.

i do not really see the case on fredrick myself

Theta just doesn't see merit in the wagon.. I guess. She writes this post by itself as her only comment on the thread. But I wonder, was the heat starting to dissipate when she wrote this?

I think there is a good shot fredrick is town and we are being snowed by strong scum players

i did give reasons. people who are trying to discredit me are quoting a post where i was being sassy.

also this fred wagon is ridiculous. the people on the fred wagon prove that fred is town 90%

Bahahah! Mush/Noraa expressed interest in the wagon around this part too, to be fair. But there was at least 1 maybe 2 townies against it. Theta isn't going against the grain alone.

I am just now realizing I'm purely doing pre-flip associatives on a slot I am not entirely sure is scum. Brilliant job me. But I like what I'm seeing. If my townreads are halfway decent, this is a viable theory on who's scum. There's town on him, it's slow, and Mushy's case isn't half bad. What do I have to fear?

Lapsa is obviously Lapsa and can be whatever alignment. Decent chance one of UNOwen/Flea is a busser in that case (And it's probably obvious which it'd be but I'm about out of time)

Overall I am left with Fred + shelly + Theta/Adorable + UNOwen/Flea + Lapsa/Any Player. It's probably worth noting I still am inclined to think shelly and one of Theta/Adorable is scum even if Fred is town, so not a totally pointless exercise. Reading through has been nice.

I am probably getting a false positive on Theta and it's just Adorable, if I were to guess. The blank "I don't find Fred scummy" with nothing else just felt a bit disingenuous in the context of where the thread was at, I suppose.

Gonna try and form stronger independent opinions on these slots when I get the chance. I hate the way this game looks like it's going to go if we don't eliminate a scum Fred (Pooky, Noraa, Murder killing each other..)

[Fidget]

I just don't care who's bussing who.
Fred's ~probably~ scum to me.
No matter who votes him it doesn't change these odds. You don't know who's scum and who isn't whether a certain player is bussing, sheeping or is scum hunting or making a plan or whatever.

Just vote the scum murder.
Do it for me. *shiny eyes*

This one's for you, Bell.

VOTE: Fred

[Fidget]

I see many people saying that they are townreading PookyTheMagicalBear for how unhappy they got. In my opinion, that is not something to townread anyone over. If I come in here and pretend to be upset, I absolutely do not think I deserve to get townread over that.

You make a fair point, but I find it town indicative for Pooky specifically. His whole defeated attitude, not really doing anything about the several people scumreading him (I'd expect him to be nice to them at least), and all the prickly interactions make me inclined to think he's town. I'm not sure scum!Pooky gets agitated with this game or feels the need to fake that. I don't think he does.

[Fidget]

Overall I find myself wanting to shoot Adorable a little more, still not decided on Flea, and I really don't want to kill Noraa.

You scumread Adorable too? Please tell me why.

I should make a formal post on Adorable. I'm worried I will not be able to quantify my feelings well, but she feels distinctly weird to me. Scummy even. Augh.

scum!fidget is saying that fred is town and pooky is scum.

What huh?

[Fidget]

if fidget is scum, then her posts indicate that fred is town and pooky is scum with her. since i think fidget is scum, i think fred is town and pooky is scum.

Your post was an odd way of saying that, to be fair.

No aggressive resistance to it, Tayl0r. Lots of more or less passive resistance, though. Resistance doesn't always take the form of "STOP NOW OR ELSE".

Shelly trying to pull votes onto different wagons (twice), Adorable attempting to resurrect a long-dead wagon, Gloria requiring a knockdown case that tickled her specific reads, MURDERCAT initially trying to resist softly then realizing that maybe their reads suck, Pooky trying to put more attention on you and themselves while the wagon was at a lull point. Add in you and Fred, and yeah, that's way more players than there are scum, but keep in mind scum distancing as well here -- defending too directly ties players to their scumbuddies. In a case where that scumbuddy isn't likely to go down, it's fairly safe. But Fred's wagon was more of a when than an if: his predecessor was Maximum Scum and his play was scummy even by the unique standards you have to read him by.

So passive defense is more likely for scum in such a position, because if they defend too hard it guarantees town goes 2-for-1 instead of 1-for-2. The scum team wants nothing less than that, because that's the path to a town win at this state (where we've already gone one day without hitting scum).

Easy shelly!scum and Adorable!scum if Fred is.

although shelly hopping on the wagon suggests shelly scum if fred is scum.

Yes

Aight, were you scum Fred?

the lack of a counterwagon kinda proves that fred was town.

No

Even ignoring that there were attempts to go elsewhere, that doesn't make a player town by default. Even just one scum voting Fred would be enough for shelly to go into "Bus bus bus" mode. And if a player is scummy enough or the case against them good enough, scum's hand will be forced.

[Fidget]

@Fidget I'm not liking your approach in this game towards me. I noticed that every single post I have made on this round, you comment about my posts but you don't even interact with me. Out of all the players in this game, I have interacted with Noraa the most and of course I would interact more with a player I scum read since it can help me better if I am going in the right direction or not.

What would you like to talk about?

Do you really think scum Adorable would quickly skim someone's completed games to get a better idea how the player plays as scum and town?

......yes? Does this townclear you somehow?

I never want Titus to get the scroll, first, second or third. You know why? I don’t ever want to kill my trs.

i have lots of townreads. some of them are gonna die. there are some that give more info than others. same reason i dont mind dying myself despite knowing im town. also im not trying to paint fidget as derailing the fred wagon.

Do I get to be town after Fred flips red?

[Fidget]

Gonna chalk the whole Fidget/Taylor/Gloria stuff up to a miscommunication. If I understand correctly, Taylor decided Fred was scum, but upon me deciding Fred is scum, decided it must be me instead.

You make a fair point, but I find it town indicative for Pooky specifically. His whole defeated attitude, not really doing anything about the several people scumreading him (I'd expect him to be nice to them at least), and all the prickly interactions make me inclined to think he's town. I'm not sure scum!Pooky gets agitated with this game or feels the need to fake that. I don't think he does.

pooky self hammered in his last town game <.<
jus saying

I believe he did that out of love for another player, not because he was frustrated with the game state as he is here.

Also, one last thing, I dont think we should rush this wagon. We have far too many people coasting rn. To the point that im almost just thinking that all the coasters are the scum team. Fred literally jumped out(into the thread) and bought himself a pass to hell(by being a total scum bucket). That's pretty bad play and honestly, if he was a scum that repped in, I really strongly believe his scum buddies would literally just tell him to coast some more cuz that's literally the best way to keep everyone from suspecting you. Idk im just having bad feelings about this + it reminds me of how my own wagon built up super fast and I got really mad and idk I just am not vibing here.

Yeah I didn't realize that was a hammer, I was working off the previous VC where he was only at 5. I have a decent feeling about this one, though.

If the entire scumteam consists of coasting players, there probably isn't much to worry about. I think we're definitely catching them out if Fred is scum.

[Fidget]

For me, Fidget, Fred coming up red makes you more likely to be scum. Mostly because for the first time this game, you jumped -- and you were the hammer vote.

It's a minor shift, but significant. I see a Fidget+Shelly+Fred world as more likely than a Fidget+any-combo-without-Fred one. That said, I have other places I'd want to check before you.

I am a bad partner if I'm with shelly. I have a more believable progression with Fred, though, sure.

Not a problem though, I'll prove you wrong by removing the rest of Fred's scumpartners if he does come up red.

[Fidget]

Apologies if you are indeed town Fred, I didn't intend for that to be the hammer although I doubt I'd have moved my vote.

@Fidget I noticed you have been making a town core which is making me wary scum are forming a town core for each other and who wants to make friends with town, you have also been saying I am weird and you can't just only say that because that can be a good excuse for scum to call a player weird and your lack of engagement with me which is bothering me.

I'm the only player with a town core that bothers you? Don't think that's a trait exclusive to me.

I'm reading you as off or weird, yes. You see it as a lazy scumread (as scum might use), so lemme take the opportunity to actually quote what I find weird now and try to figure it out.

Spoiler:

I don't understand why Noraa is getting defensive here in this type of setup. Noraa if you were the first to be given the scroll wouldn't you give it to your scum read?

Taylor asking do scum have a daytalk I couldn't tell if this was a joke or not.

VOTE: Noraa

I'm busy at the moment and I'm multitasking. Noraa getting defensive is sus and it looks like she dug herself a hole here. Noraa votes me wanting me to have the scroll and I would most likely give it to her.

Noraa, your play makes no sense. You made a readlist and put Shelly, Vaultdweller, and Hopkirk as scum but you didn't vote them and instead you vote me for not voting and same thing can be said about you for not voting those 3 you listed earlier as scum. I don't mind getting the scroll since I've been busy lately and won't be able to put much effort.

I have read 20 pages since from where I last left off and I still haven't fully caught up. I'm still scum reading Noraa and I'm also scum reading Unowen because once when Noraa started to get defensive and all those votes piled up on her, Unowen says the wagon on Noraa looks promising and then randomly shaded me about my vote on Noraa which looked sus.

Early play is just "Noraa, Noraa, Noraa" which is fine I guess since I focused on her too.

You add in an extra scumread on UNOwen just because he suspected your vote on Noraa. I thought it looked like awkward bussing a tad bit especially with Noraa voting you back. That doesn't matter since I don't scumread Noraa now, though.

I saw on Noraa's recent reads list she put me as newbtown and I find this strange she still leaves her vote on me.

@Theta You never responded to #1658 and your theory looks really weird. shelly said on #347 Noraa hates bussing.

There's a pattern where your reads heavily tend to revolve around people voting you, or at the very least suspecting you.

Noraa's play has been confusing me and that 180 she did earlier on me when Toogeloo was holding the scroll was sus. Her post on #3942 about Hopkirk also looked like scum shading him. So from what I gathered, scum Noraa likes to put pressure on players and she has been doing that in this game and town Noraa doesn't put pressure.

VOTE: Noraa

This doesn't make any sense. I see this comes as a hop-on to a Noraa CW to Frederick's main wagon, which looks bad if I believe Fred to be red.

Town!Noraa doesn't put pressure. I don't get it. You believe that town!Noraa doesn't vote? That can't be it, because Noraa voted just a little ways back from this post. So I guess this read just makes no sense.

I have had some bad experience with meta and most of the time I don't focus on meta anymore. In my last micro game I played someone was getting town read for meta and that player turned out to be scum. I was getting scum read for meta and I was town. I have said earlier on why I scum read Noraa. That read list Noraa made when she put me as newbtown gave me a bit of a pause and I started wondering maybe Noraa could be town and if she was scum, I would have assumed she would continue on trying to get me eliminated and then later she did a 180 on me. On my first completed scum game I also made a read list and I didn't get coached. Noraa's play really has been confusing me.

Gloria gives you meta that suggests Noraa is town.

In response.. you throw out using meta as reasoning. Just after you used the insane "Town!Noraa doesn't pressure" meta as a reason to vote Noraa. Seems awfully cherry-picky. Gloria's meta is stronger (the emotional range stuff).

That's what I said earlier and Noraa is putting pressure in this game. I did not read her completed games and I only quickly skimmed 2 of her scum games and 2 of her town games to see what her votes looked like. In 2 of her scum games I quickly skimmed she used by the lines of, "I would like to put pressure or I will put some pressure on you." When I quickly skimmed through 2 of her town games to see what her votes looked like, she did not mention the word pressure when she placed her votes.

This is the kind of read I would expect from someone who swears by meta, not someone who has bad experience with it. It's crazy. Why must you vote Noraa so badly? This again comes as a response to Gloria pointing out why your evaluation of Noraa's meta is wrong.

Overall your Noraa read is crazy and very convenient in a Fred!scum world when she was the most promising counterwagon. There is something else I found weird about the people you were willing to shoot:

Spoiler:

Vaxkiller
Lapsa
Noraa
Fidget
UNOwen

This is your five you would shoot. All of your reads that aren't Noraa were essentially OMGUS, with Noraa also partially being OMGUS.

Vaxkiller's play makes no sense. Earlier he randomly votes me and then says Bell is shading but still leaves his vote on me. On #2509 Vaxkiller said he's glad he voted you but he never voted you and he lied. Lapsa's vote switch on me when a wagon started to build on Toogeloo during my absence looked sus.

I'm also scum reading Unowen because once when Noraa started to get defensive and all those votes piled up on her, Unowen says the wagon on Noraa looks promising and then randomly shaded me about my vote on Noraa which looked sus.

@Noraa There are some players who are suspecting us as scum buddies and if you really are town, then this makes me think scum are the ones who are trying to make it look like we are scum buddies when we are not. UNOwen and Fidget are the players that come up from the top of my head.

I don't find "Reads are weird, a bit inconsistent, and OMGUS-centric" quite damning so I am not yet willing to say I'm confident you are scum. If Fred is red I would shoot you in a heartbeat, though, because the Noraa read then makes sense.

And yeah, I am used to seeing you townslip so it's partly just weird for me not having you in the locktown bin for once.

[Fidget]

Apologies if you are indeed town Fred, I didn't intend for that to be the hammer although I doubt I'd have moved my vote.

Meant this as in "apologies for reading you wrong", I want to be clear I'm not blaming you for my bad read, of course.

When I look at your town reads these are the players you put as town.

Bell, Mush, Pooky, Noraa, MurderCat, LL, Taylor, Gloria

List of players you put as poe

Fred, shelly, Titus, Adorable, Theta, Lapsa, Flea, UNOwen

Fred said he is town and if I'm to look at your pov removing me on the list then the 5 team from your pov would be somewhere in

shelly, Titus, Theta, Lapsa, Flea, UNOwen

You look a bit confident on your reads and the 6 players I listed above, which player would you remove and put on the town list?

I'm not crazy enough to believe I've got all the scum in there, so it'd probably be a bit pointless to just remove one player. Let me order my reads in intensity and see where that gets me, instead.

I would say Lady, Pooky, Mushy, and Noraa are my highest confidence townreads.
If Lady was willing to trash on town!Isis knowing fully well Isis was town correctly suspecting scum, I am astounded.
Mushy I trust is not able to give this much effort as scum as she and others have pointed out. I have not played with her before, though.
Pooky not playing at all how I'd expect him to. Not a perfect read but I seriously, seriously doubt we see this prickliness, unresponsiveness to scumreads, and the "Town is fucked I'm done here" attitude from him if he's scum.
Noraa is complicated and probably deserves her own post. I actually should review her before townlocking (I have noticed that Noraa has the ability to become globally townread as scum in a different game).

Below them lies Murdercat, Gloria, and Bell.
Quite like Gloria's posts, almost always seem to agree. I am not counting out the possibility she's a strong scum player but I like what I've been seeing.
Had strong reasons to townread them early, but they've been fading out from my mind.
Murdercat I believe is similar to Mushy with regards to scum meta, I'm not sure he would have taken the aggressive "Toog is scum NVM Vax is scum NVM Hopkirk is scum SHIT" stances D1 as scum. I think he is probably genuinely embarrassed and losing the willingness to play as hard. Pooky definitely not helping. I could be wrong and he's just acting that part though, so I cannot be certain yet. Probably should check the original reasons for townreading.
I finally witnessed a scum player getting exceptionally emotional recently. Should probably give Bell a more objective look in the future. For now still a townlean.

Below those tiers is mucky. Probably place Titus up a little as a sheep to people reading her as being on town meta.

I'm left with Taylor, shelly, Theta, Lapsa, Flea, UNOwen, and Fred.
Talked about why I disliked Taylor/shelly here. I like some things and dislike some things about the two of them, so I feel more comfortable nailing them off of bad interactions with dead scum in conjunction with a scumread.
Haven't reviewed Theta/Flea/UNOwen really beyond checking Theta's Fred interactions and deeming her defense of him suspicious given the timing. I found it suspicious because she gave a blank defense of him when others were starting to voice their defenses of Fred.
Lapsa is Lapsa.

Overall, I'd go something like:
{Lady}
{Pooky, Noraa, Mushy}
{Gloria, Murdercat, Bell}
{Titus}
{Taylor, shellyc, Lapsa(DGB), Flea, UNOwen, Fred, Adorable}

And it was beautiful if Fred was scum. Oh, to answer your actual question: out of Laspa/Titus/Theta/shelly/Flea/UNOwen, I'd remove Titus, barely.

[Fidget]

HURT: Lady Lamdadelta

I don't want this blood on my hands if you are town Fred

Her blood is all over your paws if he is town. It's on his, too, of course, but I don't really see how choice could be attributed to anything but you.

I believe Fred is scum because he had no build up to that vote. I don't see why town!Fred abandons Adorable and Noraa.

Shooting LLD is not terrible IMO

Congratulations, you have managed to make yourself null read by me when I was townreading you earlier.

Oh yeah also it conflicts with this. I think your paws are safe.

Just to be sure I'm going to wait a moment, though. Wait, that's not how the scroll flips work. Nyeh.

[Fidget]

I don't get why scum Fred wifoms with all the adorable stuff. Does adorable look any better now?

I would shoot Adorable immediately given the opportunity now.

Shooting LLD is not terrible IMO

Here's the thing about shooting LLD first, it's kind of a safe shot because

1. She isn't leading town or finding scum right now
2. We are hitting max 1 scum today
3. I trust town LLD to hit scum
4. If we hit some other scum we probably lose mush or me instead who are at least still posting in the game

Remember isis claimed scum to try to shoot LLD

For LLD when she wakes up tomm. ^_^

I haven’t a clue why pooky thinks murder cat is scum but I don’t agree with it and have been buddied and pocketed beyond redemption.

i dont think ive ever said i think murdercat is scum

I understand apathy, but you're actually actively trying to reduce our chances of winning. Why are you doing that?

If scum is killing LLD despite inactivity, it must be someone who respects her game a lot (@pooky ;) )

I can see the argument for shooting her because she's highly townread. In my eyes she is never scum, so that's a decent reason. How many players can that be said for?

[Fidget]

I was under the impression that you were egging her on to shoot Murdercat, since if Fred is town, he'd be responsible for her death. Even though you don't think Murdercat is scum. My apologies.

[Fidget]

why do you think fred is town?

Me? I don't.

The reason I interpreted it that way was because you and Murder haven't been getting along very well despite not really scumreading each other.

[Fidget]

Fred being scum and Taylor's recent posting makes me feel she is town, after all.

Why are so few players talking about how scummy Bell is?

I'm open to hearing your points, but I would say the reason is probably that he isn't that scummy.

And if a player is scummy enough or the case against them good enough, scum's hand will be forced.

these two for sure werent the case. there wasnt much reason for scum to hard bus there. there was no *coordinated* effort to derail the wagon.

Really? I was under the impression it was.

I feel like when a scumread slot has a case like this coming from a consensus townread, there is just no recovering from that:

Spoiler:

--SNIP--

--Comes in hard on easy miselimination Noraa.
--Doesn't even cast shade when people confront him. No engagement except deflection. No explanation of the reasoning for the push given.
--Questions shelly a little bit. Barely at all. Deflates the moment shelly responds. No explanation for the questioning given.
--Votes Tayl0r for not responding to the weakest push I've ever seen -- at first I thought it was a naked vote with an unrelated quote attached by accident. Weak pressure maintained.
--Explicitly shrugs about Flea's ISO.
--Finally posts a reads list where I, Gloria, and Fidget are town, Tayl0r and Noraa are scum, and everyone else is a shrug.
--Seriously, consider the absolute emptiness, the vapidness of that readslist. Holy shit. No explanation given for /any/ of these, by the way. Gloria floated a town Fred idea at some point along the line, so maybe that has something to do with it? Garbo reads. Absolutely trash.
--Mention of a reaction test on Tayl0r, I GUESS? Like, let me remind you the vote is for townreading LLD.
--Noraa to null because, uh, Gloria and Fidget say so I guess. To slightly paraphrase on account of I just closed the ISO around when I realized this might be useful to have here: "You've convinced me this read was for bad reasons".
--Denies shelly's literal depiction of the events around the Noraa read. No explanation given.
--Finally townreads LLD for, um, "a different reason". No explanation given. This is a recurring theme, huh?
--Returns to badly putting weight on Noraa and Tayl0r because Flea reminded him that he said stuff and then sort of let it drop. (The questions asked are technically about different posts but the thrust of the argument is damn near identical.)

--SNIP--

1: Fake scumhunting. I agree scum doesn't need to hunt and can coast fine in this game -- which means that if town starts to coalesce, lurkers are at risk. It's a risk-reward thing -- scum tries to fake like town, if they succeed then they can coast on bullshit to the finish line. Lurking is lower effort, has less risk of them getting caught early on, but they get caught out by POE if town coalesces.
2: Faking town confidence in coming across as town.
3: There's two things here:
3a: First, people have been remarking on the total lack of engagement outside of Noraa around now, so a false-start push on a relatively strongly positioned player could provide some cover. It's noteworthy that this does in fact come after multiple people remark on the single-mindedness of Fred's play to that point, so this is ABSOLUTELY responding to potential pressure. It's obvious why scum would do this.
3b: Second, no explanation given -- scum has to fake reasoning. This is /very/ difficult for people who aren't natural storytellers and is in fact why I incorrectly scumread Tayl0r in our last game together. Scum is safer providing barebones or absolutely no reasoning.
4: See 1 for push and 3b for weakness.
5: See 3b.
6: These are the most absurdly pointless reads I've ever seen. The universal townread, the easiest miselimination, and the only prominent player with a serious contingent calling for blood. Oh, and two comparative nobodies (no offense meant, you two just aren't in the top quarter of active players). This is an under-pressure, asspull, "I have no idea what's going on" readslist. See 3b.
7: See 6.
8: ??? I don't see /any/ reasoning for this. Maybe 1 applies? This is mostly just, "how is this person in the same game as the rest of us, have they paid any attention".
9: See 3a -- this is also responding to pressure. It's also coming from alleged townreads, who also seem to townread Fred, so...
10: 3b AGAIN. Also, 2.
11: See 3b.
12: 1 and 3a.

Fidget said if you are red she would shoot me and that's not a case.

I think I have pretty decent reasoning to believe you are red if Frederick is. Your reads bent unnaturally to force Fred to be town and Noraa to be scum. Why do you disregard meta that goes against your points, but support meta (and crazy meta at that) that does?

[Fidget]

does this look like we don't get along:

Spoiler:

You make a valid point, I can't really argue with that.

[Fidget]

Down for removing myself/Adorable/shelly.

[Fidget]

Fred hurting Adorable then switching to LLD makes me scum because Adorable would pass the scroll to me?

Why would Fred!scum ever give the scroll to Adorable at all?

I am going to be very unhappy if LLD passes to Noraa after all this.

Actually yeah maybe Fidget after all, that "town read/no I'm not townreading them/well not anymore" stuff was quite weird.

You are killing me solely off of how Fred interacted with me?

UNOwen's post on #4961 makes me lean more on Fidget being scum since she mentioned omgus. Fidget should have already known before when this game started that I omgus as town alot and Fidget complaining that I suspect players who vote me is a red flag. Hopkirk also made some good points on Fidget being scum. If I am wrong on Fidget and she turns out to be town, then that means Fidget played a very bad town game.

Your reads on D1 were poor, yes, although that's not the meat of it. I want to kill you based off your Noraa/Fred interactions which you don't seem to want to talk about for some reason.

Bad town game is.. lol. Sorry for not being able to read your mind, Adorbs.

Presuming Fred is indeed scum (and it

is

unlikely he would curse LLD without a word otherwise) I agree that Adorable has good odds of being scum now. Thought she was town because of the cool reaction to the scroll threat, but Fred!scum means she would've known all along what was going to happen so it's not worth anything. Red Adorable flip would be useful for hard clearing Fidget and Theta too. Would be my second choice after shelly.

Fred/shelly/Adorable/DGB/???? <- maybe scum team is something like this.

Oh yeah we're winning this game

[Fidget]

Down for removing myself/Adorable/shelly.

really? ok why are you ok with being scrolled third?

Down for removing myself/Adorable/shelly.

really? ok why are you ok with being scrolled third?

My thoughts as well

What? I assume this would happen on the next day. You find it hard to believe that I'd blow myself up alongside two of my greater scumreads?

[Fidget]

Down for removing myself/Adorable/shelly.

Oh I meant all three of us tomorrow, one out of the three of us right now.

[Fidget]

I pretty much said earlier I scum read Noraa. Me being scum and continuing to vote Noraa when she was being town read by some players makes no sense and I also said earlier I was wary scum were forming town core for each other who wants to make friends with town. Only interaction I had with Fred was when he put a placeholder tag on me. Fred said he is town and I thought he was town who was going to give the scroll to me.

Except for the fact other players suspected Noraa and she was the counterwagon to Fred? Your reasoning for Noraa being scum was insane meta, and you dismissed the Fred scumcase because it was meta based? Scum benefits from not bussing here? Am I such a terrible town player for saying this?

You having a history of scumreading Noraa is perfect reasoning for you to not switch. I refuse to believe you play scum in such a predetermined way. Earlier you were like "Do you seriously think I look into Noraa's meta as scum?" too. Are you claiming to be super low effort as scum? You're supposed to emulate town as scum. Why would scum!you avoid doing these things, at all?

[Fidget]

@Fidget You have been asking why would Fred scum give the scroll to me and scum must have thought I would give the scroll to Noraa.

If that were the goal, he'd have just given it to LLD, the most vocal opponent of Noraa, off the bat. I thought it was pretty obvious you would give the scroll to me.

I assume you just got hurt for WIFOM, or Fred just wanted to keep pretending to be town for some reason. I had just got done casing you and he voted you as a result of that case. It faintly makes me think you're scum for it but mostly just makes me want to ignore it.

Who would scum think mush would shoot?

This is biiiiig.

[Fidget]

When I am scum reading a player, I vote for my scum reads and town should always vote on their scum reads. Scum are the ones who have to be careful on their reads.

Yeah, I know you're gonna vote for your scumreads, I'm not arguing against that. Your reasoning in your vote post

Noraa's play has been confusing me and that 180 she did earlier on me when Toogeloo was holding the scroll was sus. Her post on #3942 about Hopkirk also looked like scum shading him. So from what I gathered, scum Noraa likes to put pressure on players and she has been doing that in this game and town Noraa doesn't put pressure.

VOTE: Noraa

was utter insanity. When Gloria brings up meta that is more reasonable for evaluating Noraa

Could someone tell me why they are townreading Noraa or Tayl0r Swift? I am absolutely not.

Noraa’s emotional range is much greater here than in any of her scumgames + she’s making detailed, nuanced readslists. She didn’t do that in ANY of her scumgames and here, she’s doing that like it’s going out of style almost.

So, either Noraa’s suddenly switched up her scum meta or she’s town. The readslist also reads super genuine and not coached, so I’m obviously a lot more confident on Noraa!town than Tayl0r, especially after skimming The Trials but I still think it could be playstyle.

I’ve already explained Tayl0r but she should definitely be able to give reasons for that read, I did.

I have had some bad experience with meta and most of the time I don't focus on meta anymore. In my last micro game I played someone was getting town read for meta and that player turned out to be scum. I was getting scum read for meta and I was town. I have said earlier on why I scum read Noraa. That read list Noraa made when she put me as newbtown gave me a bit of a pause and I started wondering maybe Noraa could be town and if she was scum, I would have assumed she would continue on trying to get me eliminated and then later she did a 180 on me. On my first completed scum game I also made a read list and I didn't get coached. Noraa's play really has been confusing me.

You dismiss it based off of "bad experiences with meta". Gloria saying that Noraa is out of her emotional scumrange is very much what I am thinking, too. Noraa "not putting pressure" as town is not a thing. You are only accepting meta that helps you scumread Noraa. Why?

During this time frame you are also ignoring Frederick in favor of talking about Noraa and asking me for my reads. You have never had Zdenek/Fred on the table this game. You dismissed my read as "If Fred is scum, then Adorable is scum", rather than actually respond to it.

You are calling me a bad town player for this read, but I am only calling it as I see it.

[Fidget]

By the way, that's not how I play as scum. I only have 3 completed scum games and first completed game I was distancing with a scum buddy and afterwards I played passive and voted no one, second completed scum game I fake claimed vt in a mass claim and was forced to get in a 1v1 because of my claim since players were suspecting scum to be in a vt claim, third completed scum game I played so passive and I voted no one.

You yourself have told me that meta is a bad way to read you, and yet, you use it as your defense repeatedly, this being the third time I can recall.

You even admit to have bad experience with meta (but only when it goes against your Noraa scumread). What am I supposed to think, Adorbs?

But I should still entertain it, yes. You are saying you are more passive as scum and tend to not throw your vote around unless you absolutely have to? So in this situation, you would not have been voting for either wagon for fear of being caught out on a CW? Is that how I should interpret this meta?

[Fidget]

You keep bringing up meta which is why I talk about it. First time you talk about meta mentioning me was when you said you have played with me in my scum game and I said I have never played with anyone by the name of Fidget and then I figured out you are an alt and second time you talk about meta was me looking into Noraa's completed game since her play has been confusing me. To answer your question in the third sentence, I would have bussed for the town cred which is why I think there is some scum who voted Fred and bussed him.

I never asked you to give all these "Do you honestly think I would do X as scum" posts. I find it hard to believe you're giving them simply because I brought up us playing together in a previous game earlier this game.

So far I am possibly willing to accept that town!Adorable simply tunnel visions on Noraa, ignoring defense of her, and then also ignores Fred because you townleaned him. I am thinking about how Noraa was scummy for things besides your crazy meta, which might have contributed to it. And I am not sure you call me a terrible player if you are scum.

Some scum bussed him probably, sure. There's four other scum and nine people on the wagon, after all. I do think it was much more optimal for scum to push their early lead by not bussing. At least they should have tried to do that before falling back on bussing. When town is starting to get apathetic... it just starts to feel like a no-brainer. If you want scum that looks like an obvious bus on Fred, look no further than shellyc dipping on and off the wagon and also speaking to Fred exactly how I expect scum!Shelly to do to try and get towncredit off a partner coming under fire.

[Fidget]

i do not really see the case on fredrick myself

If Adorable is town this is where I'm interested in instead.. I already went over that I think the blank defense of Fred is suspicious because it came after a couple of posters were defending Fred:

also this fred wagon is ridiculous. the people on the fred wagon prove that fred is town 90%

I think there is a good shot fredrick is town and we are being snowed by strong scum players

Granted, there was a lot of heat on Fred at the same time, too. I am still suspicious that this was the only message Theta wanted to give at the time.

i am perfectly fine with adorable being handed the scroll

i am very confident

which to be perfectly honest
given my past history with reads
probably means i am wrong here

This is also worrying me a little bit given Theta has been tunneling Adorable probably the entire length of the game and yet is hedging her bets at the end.

I understand worrying your read is wrong (That's kinda what I'm doing right now), but it's not like Theta is engaging with Adorable or giving alternatives or anything. Feels a tad disingenuous to push hard for Adorable, have second thoughts, but still confidently say "Kill Adorable" anyway.

[Fidget]

i am very confident

which to be perfectly honest
given my past history with reads
probably means i am wrong here

When someone says they’re confident on player X being scum, then says they’re probably wrong on that read, how are you reading that as “kill Adorable”? Isn’t she saying the opposite of that?

She's been saying "Kill Adorable" all game..

Compounded by how Theta's been not terribly active recently.. it's essentially the only thing she's been saying outside of "I don't see the Fred case".

i am perfectly fine with adorable being handed the scroll

i just think adorable is nearly guaranteed to be scum at this point

why did that happen
why did vax and hopkirk die

VOTE: adorable

same reasons as before
though honestly i could also go for noraa

My point is that she's potentially nearing the finish line for getting Adorable killed, and now she's being hedgey about it. Yet it's the only read she's focused on, and she hasn't really done anything today to check elsewhere or evaluate Adorable further.

[Fidget]

You all think Taylor is still likely with Fred? I was under the impression they weren't teamed from their interactions, I guess Taylor's blatant reversal felt too.. obvious.

[Fidget]

Fred scumflip already clears Noraa because he gave the scroll to LLD. There is pretty much no world where they are buddies.

Also for anyone doubting Noraa, you should also keep in mind Fred hard tunneled there to begin his replace-in. And like, all the other reasons half the thread was already TRing Noraa. We don't need an info-flip that helps solve her.

[Fidget]

@Fidget, I disagree with your assessment. Did I mention he used Taylor as a kind of measuring stick to get his head into the game? It would be pretty crazy if that were true huh.
It's oddly specific.

I remember you saying that, but I can't find where the post is.

I'm open to being wrong on Taylor but I prefer shooting shelly. I suppose Mush makes a good point that Taylor is TSTBS sometimes, but I have only noticed that in the games where she was town. The Trials is my only scum reference for her, and she was very tryhard and generally townread middle-lategame there. In all my games where she was town, she usually did scummy stuff.

[Fidget]

Do people still think shelly and I are scum together? If so, just shoot shelly that's like a guaranteed scum flip, because she's either the 1 scum out of the 2 of us, or I'm just her partner telling you to shoot her.

..I think that makes sense.

Theta is good though if Adorbs is town.

Spoiler:

Lady Lambdadelta
MUSHSHAGANA
PookyTheMagicalBear
Noraa
Bell
Adorable [assuming Theta scum]

MURDERCAT
Gloria Cleary

Titus(VaultDweller)

Tayl0r Swift
UNOwen
Flea The Magician
DGB(Lapsa)

Theta Alpine
shellyc
Fredrick A Campbell(Zdenek)

Frederick + shelly + Theta + 2 of Taylor/UNOwen/Flea/DGB

If there are no townblock surprises this gets pretty easy doesn't it.

[Fidget]

I had a dream last night that I shot shelly and she flipped red. Safe to say I'm never letting her out of my sights at this point.

Spoiler:

really do not think lambdadelta will get here soon enough
or for that matter change her mind if she does get back
so i will abandon my traditional self placement of null since i will flip pretty soon

conf town
toogeloo
hopkirk
vaxkiller
lambdadelta
theta - soon enough

prob town
unowen
pooky
titus

null
noraa
gloria
bell
mush
murdercat
fidget

lean scum
tayl0r
shellyc
flea
lapsa

prob scum
adorable

conf scum
fred

Theta is getting bullied too hard for this readslist, I think the confirm bias is setting in for some of you. It's missing a lot of the critical townreads and has Titus/UNOwen at the top somehow, but the scumread section isn't *terrible* from a Theta!town perspective.

I think Lapsa(DGB)/shelly are good contenders for actual scum at the bottom here.. Adorable extremely likely town and Flea probably town if Theta is red.

I'm skimming, one more page left. Shelly-Tayl0r impossible due to us having a weird sort of paranoia/trajectory on each other

She also put multiple obv towns in her null reads for no discernible reason.
If it's not a scum post, it's horrendously bad play.

I guess it's a little pointless to keep weighing in on this but I didn't get a chance to at the time so whatever.

Having shelly/Tayl0r both low doesn't automatically mean she wanted you two together. I agree with Bell that she's missing a lot of people who should probably be town rather than null, so that is a point against it sure. I could possibly see attributing that to her not really being around for the parts where it was clear those players were town, but it does reveal a lack of attention.

Overall it's a list I don't agree with much, but I don't want to make town!Theta feel that bad over it because it's got at least a couple scum at the bottom, and scum!Theta probably just isn't able to keep up with the game.

Spoiler:

I've read up to page 6, and skimmed the more recent stuff.

Unvote

Consider my vote on Noraa.

Ok I still haven't read but I have a question that I want answered by the time I do, should we change how we lim? Like if there is someone who people townlean but we know they have a strong scum game are we more likely to vote them in this setup?

Can I ask what led you to this? I'm curious because it came up in the thread and it makes me question whether you've read or not.

I'm inclined to agree that Noraa's town-slip looks faked, and the meta argument for why it is scummy seems good to me.

what even is this considering zdenek is scum

My top three scum reads are Noraa, Owen and Bell.

What's this all about?

Ah yes, I knew that my vote against Noraa would lead to good things.
The wagon looks promising, Noraa's reaction to the pressure has indeed been flaily.
Adorable's vote was not great.

and then explaining why he quoted these

@Zdenek - But what's it all about?

Laziness, and bolstering and attacking the wagon on Noraa in the same post.

fred may not have an interaction with adorable
but zdenek does

this interaction also leads me to believe unowen is town
and supports my thoughts that adorable is scum

Ahh, here's that UNOwen!town reasoning. Mm, I'm a bit conflicted because I don't see why Theta keeps giving associatives like her wild Titus/UNOwen top townread takes. But it seems to tie into her Adorable tunnel so maybe it's just done as a little extra thing to seem like she has extra quirky non consensus reads.

[Fidget]

I'll force myself to have a dream that I shot fidget and she flipped red tmr

UNO!town is pretty much based off weak interactions. fred/UNO/theta is a thing imo.

Hey that's stealing!

What benefit is there for scum!Theta to make scum!UNOwen a big townread of hers on her deathbed, other than for WIFOM?

[Fidget]

do you think scum!theta SRs/nulls all their teammates?

She only gave three people townie status (UNOwen, Pooky, Titus), so hard to say. She's only got three mates at that point, and there's ELEVEN non-townreads.

I'm gonna think harder about where to look after her flip I think.

[Fidget]

Analyzing start of D2 / Fred wagon because I can't sleep

Spoiler:

fine with any of {fidget, pooky, uno, titus, bell}. i sorta feel like maybe only one of pooky and bell is scum. and shelly i really cant make my mind up on.

Taylor begins the day by having 0 or 1 scum in her top 5, nice. Actually there could be scum in Titus/UNOwen, so probably ~1 scum in there overall.

*fidget, fred, uno, noraa, taylor

VOTE: UNOwen

probably this first priority followed by noraa, scroll this pls

To her credit, shelly has scumFred on the list and possibly scum!taylor (if shelly is town), but she starts with UNOwen first.

i can do uno.

VOTE: uno

Doot doot doo

VOTE: Fred.

I’m just gunna go with the safest option here.
I think he’s scum for lurking.

sometimes i start to doubt myself about bell and pooky. but then they make posts like the ones on this page and i feel confident again.

@pooky whats the point in calling out bell for trolling when it was clearly either an NAI mistake or a scumslip where he didnt need to pay attention to the thread since he knows everyone's alignment.

@bell is pushing a lurker really the best you can do after 166 pages? really?

Reminder of why Bell is still town (He has many posts elaborating and all that, I'll skip them). Conflicted on whether or not this is genuine from Taylor.

VOTE: Noraa

Doot

VOTE: Noraa

And doot

Fred obviously was hard tunneling Noraa. Titus has been pushing getting Noraa flipped so she can use Noraa's wagon for info. This is a very Titus thing to do, but I wonder whether or not this is convenient reasoning to votepark Noraa. She had been saying it for a while on day one though, so I don't think it's fair to evaluate it that way.

Skipping Mush stuff that makes Mush still town.

lapsa is a cheap filler slot because lapsa isnt contributing.

blame Bell

Lapsa's slot has a lot of nerve being alive right now. I want to say that the fact Lapsa has come under like no scrutiny ever is scum-indictative, but the only people who controlled scrolls on D1 were town and I guess he was not really present so maybe he got missed. However my large amount of townreads makes me want to think Lapsa/DGB is scum anyway. We shall seeee.

shellyc
UNOwen
Hopkirk
Titus
Zdenek

Ranked.

Oo noticed this. Does Lapsa put more than 2 scum in his list? I want to indulge in WIFOM and say that just Zdenek and shelly will flip scum from it if Lapsa is scum.

fred is scum based off newb 2025 +1 to that I think.

so. yeah. taylor -> pooky -> noraa gets rid of 2 scum.

fred sounds really pedantic and really excusey imo

Bell continues to go upwards in my reads, I'll join you on fred if needed

Kill shelly kill shelly

Fred is under ~2 votes of pressure and she comes out confidently saying Fred is scum. However, Zdenek was not on her list of people to shoot D1, not here nor here. She also wanted UNOwen first AND wanted to do the Taylor/Noraa/Pooky kills.

However.. after a couple more votes...

I just doublechecked Fred's ISO to be sure I wasn't asspulling the above post and SURE ENOUGH! Literally no pressure has been anywhere but on Noraa. Surprisingly enough, the pressure itself is absolute garbage -- I was giving Fred such a pass that I didn't realize that Fred is voting a slot for /no goddamn reason/, no case presented, literally just picking at supposed "contradictions" that don't even add up to anything even /if/ you assume they're from scum. Too bad that not even "assuming scum" holds here when Fred's arguing in favor of people townreading the very fucking slot the pressure is on. It's a totally incoherent mess of an ISO and it isn't even aimed in a singular direction.

Like, I look at the post Fred wants replies to and I go "wow if I was in the line of fire here I'd ignore your nonsense too".

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

VOTE: Fred

VOTE: Fredrick

i'll vote anywhere in uno/noraa/fred/taylor. maybe fidget especially if she wants to 1v1 with me.

fred you're online come here

i consider this to be ellitelling btw

She shifts her focus to Fred all of a sudden and goes ham. Again, this is what shelly does to partners that come under suspicion, she firmly believes in bussing hard to get all the towncred she can muster.

You know, with 17 players left in this game, I really would appreciate it if everyone only post if they have something meaningful to say. Below is an example of completely inessential conversation that could have been done using the site chat. Please use the site chat for conversations like this. You won't get banned. It's not game related.

Fredrick: complains about no game advancing content
Fredrick again: Doesn't give game advancing content at all

lol
fred order these names from town->scum NOW
fidget
taylor
theta
bell
gloria

She's going nuts on him. Like??? What warranted this?

Well that's a naff result :(

VOTE: Freddy

Pressure here is good I think, UNOwen is my other option currently.

No opinion on this I don't think, I could go either way. Going to need more for Flea probably.

Provisionally OK with cursing Fred.
Always OK with cursing shelly.

Yo Flea, updated reads on (Noraa, shellyc, Theta, Fred, UNOwen) with justifications?

My mann

Provisionally OK with cursing Fred.
Always OK with cursing shelly.

Yo Flea, updated reads on (Noraa, shellyc, Theta, Fred, UNOwen) with justifications?

Nora: Scum lean - As much as I want her to be town, there's too much bad stuff and Lady's drilling didn't help the matter.
Shelly: Town-ish - Emotional reaction seemed genuine to me. Interactions seem genuine.
Theta: SL - Reassessment needed.
Fred: SL - Literally just slid in the game like he was always here, nothing really rocking the boat. Zdenk was SL, seemed to be trying to poke things but not actually doing that much about it. Feels like I've actually done more [which is frankly impressive]
UNOwen: Scum - I made a post previously and I stick to that.

That said, I don't believe in Nora/UNOwen as a duo.

I'm conflicted again! If Shelly/Fred/Theta are all scum, I would expect Flea to townread at least one of them, they practically have to. And having UNOwen as their highest scumread is helpful so they aren't forced to bus. I'm marking this post to review after the flips.

/////////

wow we're letting scum drive another wagon.

the fact that most scum have pooky but not bell on their lists is interesting. suggests that pooky really is town. similar wrt shelly. so who is the last scum? hmm.

Taylor is consistently so off the mark it makes me probably 90% on shelly > taylor being scum here. That plus the blatant swap on Fred at the end. It's shelly, not taylor. I forget what forbids them both being scum but I know there was something (have they lockscummed each other perhaps?), but in any case my conclusion is a resounding kill shelly.

Anyone seen Fidget? Anyone at all?

I want to sit down and read what's happened before I start posting, but unfortunately I haven't really had that opportunity yet

I was gone for the entire first VC of today, wow! Reading it good now is almost better though.

In conclusion:
Kill shelly
Probably don't kill taylor as long as she's not with shelly which I swear there was something about that
I wanna review Flea 4242 after flips
Bell/Mushy are solid still
I like UNOwen and I like him even more if Theta is scum
I am suspicious of Lapsa but might be confirm biased by large # of TRs

[Fidget]

@Gloria, Shelly isn't clear for locktowning somebody at whatever random point in the game, that sounds very much playstyle over something town indicative. Or am I missing something?

The simplest answer for LLD being chosen is that every other option will end the day in S>T>S and Fred did not want that. I seriously doubt he was so scared of shelly's townflip fucking over his partners that he felt he couldn't kill the best targets. Like Taylor/me are already dead ppl walking for a scumteam where shelly's town. Just get the S>T>T at that point and hope town misses whoever is scum in taylor/fidget in that case.

VOTE: Shelly

LET'S DO THIS.

Very surprised UNOwen is the counterwagon.

[Fidget]

Okay, I think Tayl0r’s too obvious based off of Fred/Tayl0r interactions, it’s probably wifom but he probably was hoping we’d yeet Tayl0r, maybe?

The only question I have is why he switched from Adorable to LLD. Is Fidget a buddy or just wifom? We know that LLD wasn’t likely to shoot there, so Fred didn’t want Fidget flipped either.

So, since Shelley is sr Fidget/UNOwen/Tayl0r, I’d say scum in one of those three most likely, outside chance of Flea but probably Fred wasn’t very worried about Flea.

Okay, I guess she is the highest info flip. I don’t know her meta.

Why, why, why does everyone think Fred was originally going to kill Adorbs? WHY would he do that? He hurt Adorbs as a response to a post of mine calling Adorbs scummy. It makes no sense for him to actually kill her over the plethora of locktown we have. I interpreted as him keeping up the act that he's a townie as long as he could. It made me pause solving the game with Fred as scum for a moment, so I guess that's better than claiming scum immediately.

pedit: UNVOTE:

[Fidget]

If I were the one going first I'd be livid I wasn't given time to solve the game before getting the scroll (assuming town of course), even if I were being really scummy, so I'll wait.

You confidently voting Shelley might mean I’m wrong on why Fred didn’t want you flipped.

VOTE: Shelley

Shelly red flip would likely spew you and Owno as town.

I would think so but the consensus seems to be to remove shelly and I at once, as opposed to removing shelly and then me. I don't really care as long as shelly gets the scroll first because then we get a S>T>S opportunity. And shelly has a fun dilemma to deal with, too.

[Fidget]

Shelley scumflip definitely points to Fidget as a likely buddy.

Why do people keep saying this? It's getting on my nerves. Next you're going to say scum!shelly implicates taylor or Flea by virtue of us being on her so long. I haven't actually found the reasoning for me being with shelly yet, but if it's anything like the Frederick-Fidget reasoning, I will probably hate it.

Anyway, I see shelly's been given the scroll. What happens next, shelly? C:

[Fidget]

I don't owe Noraa a damn thing.

Hahaha that was fucked up.

Don't particularly want to speculate too much on shelly's most likely partner yet in case it influences how she scrolls.

Even outside of the shelly flip I think Taylor is town here. The interactions with Fred were too harsh from his end for me to imagine that being a doomed scum distancing from his partner. In particular the bit where he pressed Taylor for having poor reasons to be defending him, which is not so much "if I go down you look townie" instead "if I'm going down then you'll be next!". Also, her play around the Fred flip doesn't really have a coherent scum strategy - switching from "scum are trying to execute Fred" to "no longer town reading Fred" to "Fidget scum means Fred is town". I've seen town Taylor pull this sort of drastic turn based on wagon dynamics before, so I can well believe that was her thought process.

Yup, my thoughts exactly.

Whoever said we have to throw it at UNO after shelly, there's no point because we already got the scum in the pair. And if we didn't, then you can correct that tomorrow after, you know, viewing the flip. Also Gloria makes a good point that UNO probably isn't even obvscum after town!Shelly. I think the moral of the story for me is just kill shelly, which we already did.

I definitely do believe that Fred didn’t want Fidget yeeted for whatever reason and that’s why he switched his scroll from Adorable to LLD.

Why does Fred actually ever give the scroll to Adorable? For your theory to be correct,

Fred had to intend to give the scroll to Adorable at first. It makes no sense otherwise.

Can I please have a talk about this? Why would Fred ever throw the scroll at Adorable, or why is that critical bit of info not necessary for your theory? If I were scum I'd be even more irked than I am rn reading this reasoning because I guarantee it'd be wrong.

At least if Tayl0r is scum in this game she has not only gotten a lot better at it but her confidence in her scum game has increased a ton

I agree!

but scum is in:

shelly/(uno)
fidget
titus
dgb
pooky
flea

I think this might be really close if you remove Pooky and me.

shelly
titus
dgb
flea

Only issue maybe being while I was rereading last night, it seemed kind of like DGB and Titus weren't partners cause DGB seemed pretty adamant about Titus being scum. So I'd probably only kill 1 of that 2. Someone's missing..

[Fidget]

Spoiler:

¶

Votecount 1.20

(FINAL)

[11] Toogeloo:

Hopkirk, MURDERCAT, Titus, Toogeloo, Theta Alpine, MUSHSHAGANA, Lady Lambdadelta, Noraa, UNOwen, shellyc, Bell

HAMMER

[2] Tayl0r Swift:

PookyTheMagicalBear, Bell

[2] Bell:

Tayl0r Swift, Vaxkiller

[2] shellyc:

Fidget, Flea The Magician

[1] Noraa:

Adorable

[1] PookyTheMagicalBear

Gloria Cleary

[1] Adorable:

Lapsa

[1] Not Voting:

Zdenek

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to curse someone with the scroll. If there is no majority by the deadline, the mafia will choose who to curse.

The cursing deadline is in (expired on 2020-10-28 03:35:35).

Joint moderator ISO.

@Flea, both you and Fidget were on Shelley.

¶

Votecount 2.5

(FINAL)

[9] Fredrick A Campbell:

Bell, MUSHSHAGANA, Flea The Magician, PookyTheMagicalBear, UNOwen, MURDERCAT, Titus, shellyc, Fidget

[1] Noraa:

Adorable

[1] Tayl0r Swift:

Fredrick A Campbell

[1] Fidget:

Tayl0r Swift

[1] Adorable:

Theta Alpine

[1] PookyTheMagicalBear:

Noraa

[3] Not Voting:

Lady Lambdadelta, DrippingGoofball, Gloria Cleary

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to curse someone with the scroll. If there is no majority by the deadline, the mafia will choose who to curse.

The cursing deadline is in (expired on 2020-11-06 21:29:24).

Joint moderator ISO.

And all three of you were on Fred.

shellyc, Flea The Magician, Adorable and Gloria Cleary.

Then this.

And I’ve already discussed Fred’s switch from scrolling Adorable to LLD after she changed her scroll target from Noraa to Fidget. I mean it’s possible that all of this is sheer cooincidence but what are the odds?

So this is the reasoning that implicates me with shelly I take it? Because I've been voteparking shelly and also voted Fred? It's this, plus the aforementioned Adorable swap, then. Is that it?

......

Right. So let's get back to shelly. I await her next move with great anticipation.

[Fidget]

Shelley scumflip definitely points to Fidget as a likely buddy.

Why do people keep saying this? It's getting on my nerves. Next you're going to say scum!shelly implicates taylor or Flea by virtue of us being on her so long. I haven't actually found the reasoning for me being with shelly yet, but if it's anything like the Frederick-Fidget reasoning, I will probably hate it.

Anyway, I see shelly's been given the scroll. What happens next, shelly? C:

I think that’s kind of a reach. The Flea associatives aren’t as strong as yours. Tayl0r is still somewhat of a mystery to me. I think Titus’ theory about her and Shelley being linked I lean against. I think she actually was trying to switch it to Tayl0r.

AtE doesn’t really sway me much and I don’t find yours particularly convincing. I’m picking up more nervousness than outrage. Both you and Flea dismissed my theory but they seemed to be la lot less rattled, so if I’m wrong on one of you, it’s probably Flea.

I have no god damn clue what is implicating me with shelly and nothing you have said has helped me understand why.

I was a tad bit nervous shelly might have been town, in which case I played a big part in losing us the game, but other than that I'm gonna give you a big fat 'no' on that one. Maybe if my life were more important to my win I'd be outraged.. after all, the reasoning that Frederick hurting Adorable implicates me boggles my mind a little.

What do you mean wrt the Fred scrolls? How did he not intend to give it to Adorable? He placed a HURT tag on her and AFTER that she switched her scroll target from Noraa to you and then Fred switched it from Adorable to LLD. So, tell me then, what is your theory on why Fred switched his scroll target from Adorable to LLD?

Again.

Why. The. Fuck. Does. Fred. Give. The. Scroll. To. Adorable?

That is GAME LOSING. Notice how shelly here seems to have resigned to giving it to Mush. Our townbloc is massive. Adorable is not in that bloc. It also was fairly obvious that in a Fred/Fidget scumteam, Adorable has at least a 50% chance of giving it to me. Why would Fred EVER intend to give the scroll to Adorable?

You are buying that he was actually going to give it to her. WHY?

It is so clear to me that he was still putting on the act that he is a townie at that point. What would you do as scum? Vote someone and leave immediately? Maybe. He chose not to do that, though. He took my case on Adorable and was all like "I have received a case on Adorable blablabla so I'm voting there", then he ghosted a while, then he naked swapped to LLD, revealing his plan was to go after a townbloc player the whole time. If I had to guess, I would say that he wanted his mates' opinions on who the towniest players were that would be best to scroll, so he kept up the townie act just for a little while so he could talk to them without being super obvious about it.

There is absolutely no reason he would actually give it to Adorable. I don't understand. If I am scum with Fred because he wanted to protect me from Adorbs, why did he fucking give it to her in the first place? Why would he continue to target a "scummy" player rather than a "towny" one? Probably because he still wanted to do the townie dance for a little while longer.

Am I losing my fucking mind or am I correct is there no incentive for scum to actually shoot outside our massive townbloc, in which case he was never really going to scroll Adorbs, in which case I am completely irrelevant?

It is at this point I actually read your post and will now respond to the point you're making. I understand the idea of

Fred: "Imma kill Adorable"

Adorable: "Yeah soooo I prefer Fidget over Noraa now is that cool"

Fred: "Nope nope nope swiiiiitch"

But I see no merit in it because he was never actually going to scroll Adorable. And if that is true, it does not really matter who Adorable is targeting or what her reads were. Unless there is an actual reason to believe Fred was seriously going to give it her, then who cares? I get that this is probably obvious to me, who knows my alignment and therefore the theory just doesn't make sense at all, so I'm probably being unfair.

Maybe there is a world where scum!Fred for some reason wants to keep pretending to be town, even if it means risking me getting shot (Adorable did not just suspect Noraa, mind you..). But if that world exists, then that also means Fred was willing to risk me being shot at first, but when the risk increased, he pussied out for some reason and swapped it off Adorbs. It (obviously to me) makes way less sense than he simply was never going to scroll there. It tricked me into thinking he was town up until he swapped. And then he swapped to someone who actually made sense for scum to kill, aka the towniest player who probably wasn't going to kill shelly which is a trait that was common to just about every other towny player.

[Fidget]

Sorry for that one ^

HURT: MUSHAGANA

In other news, haha I knew it

[Fidget]

Sorry for that one ^

I want to clarify this isn't sarcasm, I should not write nearly that harsh, no matter how much I disagree with a read.

Hey, who's got the dirt on shelly associatives?

If I were to take a guess, any slot that she jumps down the throat of upon them receiving moderate suspicion. Or maybe scratch that, she probably met her bussing quota already with Fred.

..probably going to need to think a bit deeper....

noraa is a puzzle of a slot

gamestate wise this looks good with those fred interactions
posting is bad

HURT: Noraa

Hahahahaha I can appreciate this.

[Fidget]

HURT: Fidget

Ohh shit I wish I was here for this.

Actually it's not that I disagree. It's just that to me it's a case of reaching too far. There are scenarios where I feel solid about what might have happened or what someone intended, but that just wasn't one of them.
I already mentioned that I'm cautious to an extent. That's why I do all these resets.
My reads just point to exactly Titus, Shellyc, Fred, Taylor, Flea, Fidget. containing scum.

But my comfort level with the people outside of that list that aren't in the town block aren't at the town block level because they never sufficiently proved themselves to be town.
For example if Shelly flips Red I will immediately town block Unowen.

This is awfully sheepy. The question is sheepy town or scum. You tend to be quite sheepy.

You're 50/50 split on Bell's alignment?

I still find it unlikely that adorable was ever a real option over one of the obv towns.

THANK YOU

AT LEAST I'M NOT TOTALLY ALONE

-

I bet I could get a third scum right (which would be my third bus now, wouldn't it..?) in a pool of Titus/DGB/Flea..

Where does scum exist outside there, I wonder? I remove Pooky/Taylor/Bell/Murdercat/Mushy/Noraa with the highest confidence.

Tin-foiling outside of there.. maybe Gloria is a great scum player who high efforts easily, I wouldn't know because I do not know her identity.
UNOwen could technically be a big distancing play since scum is getting fucked so hard by associations from townies hard-murdering them (think Bell getting absolved of suspicion for example).
Adorable I ended up switching on to town honestly mostly because she called me a terrible player and funnily enough because she keeps saying "Do you seriously think I would do X and X as scum!?" I hate the argument but I do lean a bit that she believes in it.

Thinking about UNOwen or some other player that has good associatives that I might be missing makes me feel way more sympathetic to the argument that maybe

I'm

that odd scum player out who targets scum on purpose to mess with associations. If that were the main case being presented against me I'd probably be less annoyed cause it would still feel kinda good, you know?

I don't really like any of those tinfoils all that much (Especially UNOwen, I quite like him by now), so I feel nearly certain DGB/Titus/Flea has 1-2 scum. If I were to be more bold, I'd go ahead and say DGB/Titus + Flea + another is the solve. But I'm not as sold on Flea as I am on 1 in {Titus/DGB} quite yet, so I'll make that tomorrow's homework.

[Fidget]

You are dancing around this and completely misrepping my case.

My case is not: he was planning to give the scroll to Adorable AFTER she switched her scroll target from Noraa to you. You contining to misrepresent what I’m saying is extremely telling.

What I actually did say, is he was planning to give it to Adorable BEFORE she switched her scroll target from Noraa to you because obviously Fred is fine with Noraa dying.

No. He did NOT and NEVER planned to give it to Adorable. Not even BEFORE. That is very clearly what I am saying. He never intended at any point to actually give it to her. That is why your case is false.

If you can't see the point I'm making, I don't want to talk about it anymore.

[Fidget]

Kinda thought shelly already had the scroll..

Fidget-effort your way out of this tough spot cuz I believe you are town.

Fidget is not a lurker. Each post she posts has a large amount of content even tho she only has 100+ posts. Flea on the other hand, has 66 posts each with close to zero content.

I appreciate you Noraa, sorry for being a tad tunneled early game. I have no doubt that you will solve the rest of this game.

[Fidget]

Spoiler: Titus posts

Can you explain it to me?

See above, she lied openly about trying to derail the Fred!scum wagon onto Taylor.
-Her belief that I am scum is totally insincere (4302). She actually cases me at one point (4989 + 4991) and it was really weak and I can't imagine shelly is actually 80% convinced I am scum based on that.
-All active obvtown had decent chance at cursing shelly last phase, but instead scum decided to pass the scroll to LLD -> probably because they thought she would hit town.
-She pretended throughout the entire first phase to be completely convinced that Noraa was scum, but lost interest in pushing there once the rest of the thread had changed its mind
-Shelly goes from low WIM, sounding pretty unenthusiastic when Bell suggests passing the scroll to her to "fucking hell I hate you" when she "thinks" she has been handed the scroll. Does not sound like a consistent attitude.

I feel that she is pretty obvious at this point.

1) Almost no one thinks a case against them is strong.

2) Forces an assumption that all active town thought shelly was the only pass. This is a wrong assumption because Murder had a "hot take" and I had yet to make up my mind at all. Attempting to force your argument to be more popular than it is sucks.

3) So she's supposed to stay pushing a scumread no one else is listening to? There's 4 scum left, not one.

4) That attitude of why care I am dead to I fucking hate you because I want to play is consistent.

Ok.

VOTE: UNOwen

These posts are really interesting, it seems like there are sides forming around Shelly/Uno

One thing to note is that scum will probably hard defend partners today because they will really want to avoid S>T>S

If Shelly is scum we should come back here

I understand your conclusion. I have a different, although more self serving conclusion.

T->S->T keeps the game at a neutral state.
T->T->T gets scum a near certain victory.

Therefore, if my numbers are correct, and there is a scum in Unowen/Shelly, scum want to avoid it entirely. Town should take a 50/50 and the evidence and move on. Yet town would always favor the one leading to S -> T.

That's why my vote is on Uno.

I feel like Titus is jumping through hoops to make it T>S>T by arguing for us to go UNOwen first here. Is scum in so much trouble that they are fucked if we go S>T>S today and would need to craft convoluted reasoning to avoid it?

TOWN

(in random order)
DGB
Tayl0r - town due to other players' attacks
MUSHSHAGANA - I can't say I agree with a lot of reads but they seem well thought out
Gloria Cleary - very earnest thought processes.
PookyTheMagicalBear - calling him town to lift his spirits
Bell - cricket poster, I like the clean calls though
MURDERCAT - a lot of idle questions that sound scummy but too many town tells to ignore.
UNOwen - is right about shelly bad faith interactions, so town
Adorable - I love the push on Noraa
Fidget - Analytical and solvey

NULL

Flea The Magician - urgh, this lurksack is hard to scrutinize, I hate their reads list >>>https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12288996
UNOwen - not really null, that's a town read for me, but I have to downgrade due to VCA.

SCUM

Noraa - how has this slot not been yeeted? Trash cricket posting. Cringingly manipulative.
Titus - roller derby scum
shellyc - more of a prediction than a read ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I totally missed this post. I don't have a bad thing to say about it. Well, I don't like the Noraa read much but that is excusable. I suppose the Titus read is also on town if DGB is red.

I have been feeling that DGB isn't really much different from my last game with her + Lapsa using Bell as an excuse to not play felt bad. But I'm unsure how scum!DGB wins the game when she concedes this many people are town and puts at least shelly but probably also Flea outside of the townbloc.

I present you with: some of my reads. composed while I'm space braining on my new meds :D

Taylor - TL, randomly defensive, seems to be sticking to guns. Smart enough to not create those specific associative tells imo.
Noraa - SL, can't forgive the over-defensiveness earlier and response to drilled, have considered play since and downgraded.
UNOwen - scum. Previous post details this somewhere.
Mush - Town - seems proactive
Lady - Town - want to see more from her, and hope she's well soon <3
Shelly - TL, slot doesn't sit well with me on interactions still but the response to the hurt seemed genuine to me.
MC - Not sure, overconfident in reads.
Pooky - SL, slot isn't sitting well with me, seems to be mostly shitposting and taunting.
Lapsa - SL, What the smeg even is this slot.
Theta - Null Seems rather middle of the road to me.
Fred - scum. Zden was lean, freds entrance was... well I had to triple check when they came in because it's like they were always here, and its 3 straight in at taylor.
Bell - TL. Reads well to me. Should probably go look at the points made against them at some point.
Fidget - Honestly, haven't been paying attention.
Gloria - See above.
Adorable - Forgot about them :mrgreen:

pedit

I think pooky's town. I feel like pooky has a kind of playful vibe when they are scum.

Pooky seems quite playful to me.

This is really really bad looking because Flea is positioned to scumread at least 4 players after Fred flips scum, 3 of which are highly likely town (Noraa, UNOwen, Pooky, Lapsa). They also have nulls galore that can be thrown in if necessary. Of course the shelly TL as well.

And the playful comment with regards to Pooky!! What!?

Fidget - S, Freds tag change didn't look good after Adorbs claimed intent to curse our foxy friendo.
Gloria - T, can't find fault with her. Good points, good contributions.
Adorable - Null/TL - Freds tagging and switching affected the read. Slot seems consistent, lots of reads and information, no analysis. I'd be curious to see a detailed reads list from this slot though.
Titus - SL, only skimmed. ye gods get off the fence. "why vanity wagon?" - next post "vote wagon". o.o Really seems keen on survival...

Also sheeping that BS reasoning on me, lovely. Weird that Adorbs remains as a Null/TL despite them sheeping the reasoning that Fred "originally wanting to kill Adorbs" makes me hard scum. Seems a bit.. odd to not clear Adorbs for it, maybe they haven't thought about it too much and are simply going with it..?

Also, I'm not a fox! I'm a nimbat!

I reeaaally want to get this right. But I have classwork to do. Another time..

[Fidget]

You are dancing around this and completely misrepping my case.

My case is not: he was planning to give the scroll to Adorable AFTER she switched her scroll target from Noraa to you. You contining to misrepresent what I’m saying is extremely telling.

What I actually did say, is he was planning to give it to Adorable BEFORE she switched her scroll target from Noraa to you because obviously Fred is fine with Noraa dying.

No. He did NOT and NEVER planned to give it to Adorable. Not even BEFORE. That is very clearly what I am saying. He never intended at any point to actually give it to her. That is why your case is false.

If you can't see the point I'm making, I don't want to talk about it anymore.

What makes you so sure about that? You’re assuming that’s the case and yes obviously I’m assuming the converse but I don’t know how you can be this adamantly sure?

In a town!Adorable world, that is fucking game losing. How does Fred even remotely justify that kill? Adorable would then pass it to either me or Noraa, and then the entire town block still exists. Not a single townread person dies. What use is that kill to scum, at all? If you had a giant league full of (basically) masons, would you shoot someone outside of that pool? The only reason I could think of for doing that is if there's a bunch of scum hiding in the town bloc feeling comfortable.

And again, I want to note, Adorable suspecting me is not something he would be suddenly be surprised by. It is abundantly clear that from our convos that Adorable stood a good chance of shooting me even before he hurt her. So he was fine with that chance, but then he wasn't fine with it after the odds went up by however much? How the hell is that more likely than he was just doing a dance until he suddenly switches to the real target at the end? I would speculate that he was probably asking his more experienced mates who to actually shoot in the meantime.

Can we just disagree on this because I'm flipping my lid over it, and it probably won't matter in the scheme of things. You still think I'm scummy for my behavior towards shelly or something like that, and I don't really have anything to add to that. I'm much more willing to accept that reasoning because it makes me feel good sort of even though I guess it's not really a compliment. My votes on her seem like bussing to you, I suppose?

[Fidget]

I'd like to enter for the record

Fred/Shelly/Goofball/Flea/Titus

Perhaps Pooky is in there instead? Mostly anyone who voted UNO

Pedit :P

I feel strongly that you have at least four correct. Iffy on Titus/DGB being together, I feel like one needs to be swapped out, but I do not know for who.

@Gloria

I feel you should probably be careful reading that much into shelly's choice, although I agree in that you should absolutely not be scrolled here.

Adorable, your role here is to convince me not to make you my final scroll target, because right now that's where I'm headed until my worshippers inevitably enrage me and I do the whole Greek God thing. I will give you a small reprieve, but there is no hope but the hope you make for yourself here. Convince me.

Wait really?

Rustles through thrown-out Adorable case

There's potential..

I'm sad you didn't give me anything to do in your post, I feel left out. Oh wait

Anyone I have not assigned a job to is encouraged to explain exactly how the others are sucking at their job. I'm watching for something specific in the dynamics. So, you know, everyone here. Almost.

Sounds good

Pedit: Let's fucking goooooo

[Fidget]

PEDIT: Fidget! Just in time. Glad you could join us. Give me your biggest scumread and your biggest non-consensus townread.

Biggest scumread is a tossup of Flea/DGB/Titus. From reading through earlier today, I gain the most negative feelings towards Flea and lost some of the ones I had for DGB. Titus also very awkwardly joined UNOwen wagon, but I have been bitten by not getting Titus' logic in the past. Even so, if scum couldn't afford a S>T>S, there is huge potential there.

Will give a more depth answer before this phase ends, but it will almost certainly be one of those three..

Non-consensus townread.. let's see, judging by consensus, the strongest townreads are probably {Bell, Murdercat, UNOwen, Mushy, Noraa}.

With {Pooky, Taylor} one step below them. Taylor might be higher, idk if people finally came around there or not.

and {Gloria, Adorable} below there, probably.

I hard townread Pooky and Taylor, so whichever one of them the thread generally doesn't agree on is probably my biggest non consensus townread. In short, I find it almost impossible to imagine their attitudes being like this if they're scum. Taylor also I feel is just not partnered with Fred.

Gloria I townlean on but not as strongly. Her "You can't possibly think I'm scum" response to me even barely suspecting her way back when felt good and also I liked her posts back then. Maybe she isn't always on the mark but she feels very high effort which is certainly difficult for scum to do.

I shelved Adorable as a townlean because no one agreed with me and also I got townpings from her calling me terrible (lol). I would be zazzed if she were actually scum the whole time, I found her reasons for voting Noraa over Fred to be very inconsistent.

So my answer is Taylor or Pooky depending on thread's opinion but either way they're both very strong townreads.

[Fidget]

It did but I’m liking your last two posts and I suppose it’s also possible you/Adorable could be TvT but Shelley kept saying she wanted to 1v1 with you but never pursued it, so maybe she was trying to set you up as a buddy?

Like I was clearly wrong on Shelley so my confidence level has seriously plummeted.

Could you remind me why we decided Adorable is town, because I'm drawing a blank. Just a sentence or two is fine I don't want to waste your time with sometime I should be looking up..

[Fidget]

I think adorable is town because of how Fred acted towards the slot

Ty. If it's just the hurt vote though, that alone doesn't do it for me.

Those townreads /suck/, Fidget. I mean, there's a lot of town in them but there's no goddamn chaos. I'm looking for the townread most likely to cause fistfights. So for now, we'll let Adorable be that. AUDIENCE, HOW DO WE FEEL?

It's hard to list a risky townread when 75% of the game is safe, eh? I have exactly.. 5 non-townlocked players: Gloria, Adorable, DGB, Titus, Flea. I'm not willing to fully townread any of them although Gloria is close.

Shouldn't you be asking me who I think the most likely scum /within/ the townbloc is? Seems a bit more pertinent to your investigation and would probably be a much more helpful exercise for me to perform.

Do you realize you just contradicted yourself on your Adorable read with those two posts?

In the first post, you have her as a townlean and in the second you’re asking why I tr her?

I put Adorable down as a townlean but forget exactly why. I know many people expressed a townread on her so I'm asking why that was. You consider that a contradiction?

@Fidget, explain your Adorable read in #1604 and #1605.

If you got townpings from her in #1604, why are you asking why she’s a consensus tr in #1605?

See above..

The townpings where from her tone while I was arguing with her, but those are distinct from whatever happened that most of the thread townleaned her for at the time, which I'm now assuming is the Fred interactions. Unless you were townreading Adorable for saying I suck and saying "You seriously think I would do this and this as scum?", then those townpings aren't relevant.

[Fidget]

Pooky, now you have double homework. I want a Noraa scumcase AND a Tayl0r towncase.

HURT: Pooky

(Don't think I've forgotten you, Fidget.)

See you in the morning!

Shudder shudder

Pooky/Shelly/Toogeloo/Vaxkiller/Lapsa

this is at best 2/5 if Lapsa flips red

Not if you're scum yo

i can see my role pm dude

I love you two.

like there almost has to be a scum in {me, pooky}.

also mush what were your reads at before you got the scroll?

That's where you're wrong, there is no reason (in my mind) there has to be scum within you two, and I would bet on that not being the case.

But if I'm right on Taylor/Pooky being town and also right that DGB/Titus are disaligned, then Adorable or a townbloc member has to be in there. Homework time!

[Fidget]

Isis, Shelly and Bell aren't sitting right with me as I've been reading. More likely a dirty duo than a terrible trio in there though.

is this your first game out of newbies
you'll have to do more than that
you'll have to explain the why

Patronising much. As I've said, today is a pain day with a bonus sinus migraine.

I swear I've seen shelly talk like this to a scum mate before. In any case, I bet she'd be more comfortable talking like this to a partner. What's shelly's motivation for making that comment otherwise? Perhaps confirm biased, but it seems a bit off.

Read I don't even need to re-read shelly at this point for this VOTE: shellyc

Accusing me of misrep saying adoranoraa is a scum thing when I'm saying that's a damn impressive bus if that is the case - meaning - I don't consider that a case. Also the jump and bolded adorable is town comment despite my null read on the slot currently. Seemed to completely ignore my read of UNOwen, with absolutely zero comment on that, despite it being evident she had read it.

Hm..

Spoiler:

Read I don't even need to re-read shelly at this point for this VOTE: shellyc

Accusing me of misrep saying adoranoraa is a scum thing when I'm saying that's a damn impressive bus if that is the case - meaning - I don't consider that a case. Also the jump and bolded adorable is town comment despite my null read on the slot currently. Seemed to completely ignore my read of UNOwen, with absolutely zero comment on that, despite it being evident she had read it.

did you just spectacularly miss the point again
your misrep is that you said I was pushing adoranoraa when I clearly wasnt
I said adorable is town because that's my opinion, not your opinion

Do you think ignoring things is alignment indicative when I've been phoneposting for like. the last 48 hours.

I said no such thing. To put in plain terms I said Adoranoraa is not a thing, the number of times you were mentioned meant I would need to read you in ISO to get a better feel for your slot.

Adorable and Noraa scumbuddies? That's a corker of a bus if that's the case. Shelly is implicated in this quite heavily and is someone I need to read over anyway.
which states that I am stating that adoranoraa is a thing as I am "implicated in adoranoraa scumpair"
unless I am interpreting this wrongly

You are, very much so. See above.

Do you think ignoring things is alignment indicative when I've been phoneposting for like. the last 48 hours.

and also even if I had read unowen case at the time I wouldn't reply to it

I have no obligation to reply to every damn thing in the thread

You had some rather strong opinions and I don't recall a reaction to the UNOwen cases at all. I don't expect a response to everything, either. this thread is so full of crap I honestly don't even want to read half of it. Curious why you're not bothered about the UNOwen scenario though. Keeping distance?

Read I don't even need to re-read shelly at this point for this VOTE: shellyc

this is some impressive confidence as well.

from shelly is null i cant sort there -> I do not need to reread her she is scum. because I pointed out a legit misrep, have a read on Adorable and apparently missed a case?

You've never been a null, one of my first posts was I had suspicions on you which I needed to go through and check over.
Yes, its confident. Should it not be?

Also not ignoring the thread, I have things called life and SQL errors to fight against. MS doesn't like emoticons apparently.

I don't hate this. Doesn't have the icky feel the other exchange had. Still, it seems that Flea/shelly intended to distance at this point so I suppose this is natural.

OK if that's a scum shelly performance, that's a good performance. I buy it.

The fall out of it is amusing though. Having another pain day and changing meds because I'm having too many pain days. Watching though.

How did anyone buy that

They townread shelly from there on unfortunately.

Well that's a naff result :(

VOTE: Freddy

Pressure here is good I think, UNOwen is my other option currently.

A bus, to be sure, but coming off of a read reversal on shelly and Flea is the only scum voting for Fred at this point (from what I remember).

Provisionally OK with cursing Fred.
Always OK with cursing shelly.

Yo Flea, updated reads on (Noraa, shellyc, Theta, Fred, UNOwen) with justifications?

Nora: Scum lean - As much as I want her to be town, there's too much bad stuff and Lady's drilling didn't help the matter.
Shelly: Town-ish - Emotional reaction seemed genuine to me. Interactions seem genuine.
Theta: SL - Reassessment needed.
Fred: SL - Literally just slid in the game like he was always here, nothing really rocking the boat. Zdenk was SL, seemed to be trying to poke things but not actually doing that much about it. Feels like I've actually done more [which is frankly impressive]
UNOwen: Scum - I made a post previously and I stick to that.

We really start getting into trouble around here where Flea is set up to push so many townies (Believable slots to push, but still) after Fred's dead.

Not totally confident but their reads (Especially the UNOwen one which overrode shelly at some points amazingly) still make me feel content with picking Flea.

NULL
Flea The Magician - urgh, this lurksack is hard to scrutinize, I hate their reads list >>>https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12288996
UNOwen - not really null, that's a town read for me, but I have to downgrade due to VCA.

SCUM
Noraa - how has this slot not been yeeted? Trash cricket posting. Cringingly manipulative.
Titus - roller derby scum
shellyc - more of a prediction than a read ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Lapsa - SL, What the smeg even is this slot.

I think I'm at the point where I'm going all-in on DGB/Flea being disaligned. Leaning more and more into Titus/Flea being the answer. Scum!DGB can't win the game off a lone Noraa scumread!

..wasn't I supposed to be reading Adorable or something?

[Fidget]

Vaxkiller
Lapsa
Noraa
Fidget
UNOwen

This list is all town with the possible exception of DGB if I'm wrong on her.

That's actually probably more town-indictative than it is scum-indictative, to be fair. This is the list that I noted is entirely made of OMGUS reads + Noraa, so I guess it followed that logic alone.

at Fidget

You pretty much said here if Fred is scum then that makes me scum. Fred said he is town and your theory has been off the mark.

:3

Believing Fred is probably town-indictative I suppose.

Spoiler:

I've read up to page 6, and skimmed the more recent stuff.

Unvote

Consider my vote on Noraa.

Ok I still haven't read but I have a question that I want answered by the time I do, should we change how we lim? Like if there is someone who people townlean but we know they have a strong scum game are we more likely to vote them in this setup?

Can I ask what led you to this? I'm curious because it came up in the thread and it makes me question whether you've read or not.

I'm inclined to agree that Noraa's town-slip looks faked, and the meta argument for why it is scummy seems good to me.

what even is this considering zdenek is scum

My top three scum reads are Noraa, Owen and Bell.

What's this all about?

Ah yes, I knew that my vote against Noraa would lead to good things.
The wagon looks promising, Noraa's reaction to the pressure has indeed been flaily.
Adorable's vote was not great.

and then explaining why he quoted these

@Zdenek - But what's it all about?

Laziness, and bolstering and attacking the wagon on Noraa in the same post.

fred may not have an interaction with adorable
but zdenek does

this interaction also leads me to believe unowen is town
and supports my thoughts that adorable is scum

Can you explain this? I understand your UNOwen!town read but not your Adorable sr based on this?

zdenek was defending adorable by attacking unowen

i suppose there are other explanations for that though

Reading through Zdenek's iso it looked more like he was attacking UNOwen. From what I remember scum are the ones who don't defend their buddy.

I'm going to look into what Theta was talking about here in her honor.

Spoiler:

My top three scum reads are Noraa, Owen and Bell.

What's this all about?

Ah yes, I knew that my vote against Noraa would lead to good things.
The wagon looks promising, Noraa's reaction to the pressure has indeed been flaily.
Adorable's vote was not great.

@Zdenek - But what's it all about?

Laziness, and bolstering and attacking the wagon on Noraa in the same post.

A bit of a potential chainsaw, for sure. Seems to me like he just wanted to attack Noraa and set up some of her other attackers for a fall after Noraa died, though.

If Fred and shelly are scum buddies, I feel as if Fred passing the scroll to me would have been better for scum shelly since mafia would have probably expected me to pass the scroll to Fidget and scum shelly would have more likely wanted Fidget dead. Something doesn't look right here. Since shelly is getting suspected so much the only players I could think of who could be her scum buddies are somewhere within these players Titus, Flea, DGB, Taylor, pooky.

Okay I think I'm wrong on Adorable, I think she's likely town. These aren't even the posts that gave me

town pings

earlier so feeling pretty good now.

Spoiler:

Flea
Pooky
Adorable
Fidget

Flea Town
Pooky Lean town due to Taylor interactions
Adorable Lean scum due to being Noraa’s counterwagon
Fidget Who the fuck knows

Huh? Earlier you said I was inactive and you put me as null and now all of a sudden out of the blue you put me as a scum lean for being the counter wagon to Noraa. This doesn't seem to match on what you said earlier.

Yup. Shoot Titus. She's scum. It's Titus/Flea/X. Uncovering X's identity is still a work in progress but we're getting there.

[Fidget]

OH hey fidget, wasn't your homework to build a case on Gloria and not me?

Don't get me wrong, I'm loving the attention and the effort you're putting in <3 But you know,

Hera

Mush hath spoken.

I remember vaguely seeing something about "why no clear adorbs when so keen on me?!" because it could be a well played bus between all 3 of you, scum have daytalk after all so something like that isn't hard to coordinate.

Was it? That'd be odd when I don't SR Gloria atm. I'm glad you enjoy the attention!

That's an interesting theory although I don't really see how Fred swapping off Adorbs implicates me at all in that case. Also If I'm scum with Adorbs, that means every single scumread of mine past Noraa is on a mate. Shelly/Fred/Adorable/??maybe Titus if I'm right???

That’s an extremely narrow viewpoint. If I’m not tr Adorable for the right reasons according to you, that makes me scum, how exactly?

Why is everyone under the impression I'm suspecting Gloria?

Wait, I thought you meant Titus/DGB because scum!Titus doesn’t usually bus unless she’s on her way down. So eh?

I feel like scum!DGB is throwing by hard sussing Titus because she cannot reasonably expect the towncred from that bus to help her at all.

Possibly Flea? I’m trying to remember if scum!Titus hard tr her buddies and I think not actually. Actually I’m probably wrong if she’s scum it probably is with DGB but not likely Flea but who tf knows?

I have no idea what Titus' scum meta is, to be fair. I'm abandoning meta for her a little bit due to this game being "special" in my eyes: it's huge and impossible to catch up on, and Titus didn't have time to play early.

DGB heavily pushing scum!Titus does make me feel better about it, though.

I have no clue what your logic is, but titus sus. I'll probably read her properly after DBT, if I'm not captured for Among Us.

Anyone in who was The Trials, what’s your DGB read?

The hard confidence on Titus being scum faintly reminds me of her push on EddieFenix, and her post frequency is similar. The giant readslist is new though. I like her reads too much to SR her over Titus.

@Fidget

I present you with: some of my reads. composed while I'm space braining on my new meds :D

Taylor - TL, randomly defensive, seems to be sticking to guns. Smart enough to not create those specific associative tells imo.
Noraa - SL, can't forgive the over-defensiveness earlier and response to drilled, have considered play since and downgraded.
UNOwen - scum. Previous post details this somewhere.
Mush - Town - seems proactive
Lady - Town - want to see more from her, and hope she's well soon <3
Shelly - TL, slot doesn't sit well with me on interactions still but the response to the hurt seemed genuine to me.
MC - Not sure, overconfident in reads.
Pooky - SL, slot isn't sitting well with me, seems to be mostly shitposting and taunting.
Lapsa - SL, What the smeg even is this slot.
Theta - Null Seems rather middle of the road to me.
Fred - scum. Zden was lean, freds entrance was... well I had to triple check when they came in because it's like they were always here, and its 3 straight in at taylor.
Bell - TL. Reads well to me. Should probably go look at the points made against them at some point.
Fidget - Honestly, haven't been paying attention.
Gloria - See above.
Adorable - Forgot about them :mrgreen:

Considering Titus/Flea, what do you make of this?

Feel like I've commented on that one, but maybe I didn't. I do not like it at all. It puts Flea in a good position to scumread Noraa/UNOwen/Pooky/DGB(if town). They also keep Murder, Adorable, Gloria, Theta, and I in the field of nulls to be added to scum if necessary.

I just noticed, is Titus missing from that list?

I do wonder if scum!Flea really reverses their read on shelly due to the faked hurt reaction. Mmm but the reads themselves, they're only going to vote town off of it aside from Fred.

[Fidget]

Fidget and Pooky /still/ owe me homework. The horror. (Gloria does not, I need to meditate on the submission for a bit.)
Let me be clear for both of you: this homework is less about what I think you are trying to say and more about forcing you to consider alternate possibilities and to try and convince /me/ of those alternate possibilities. There are like 3 different things I'm trying to do with it and at least two of them are pulling in opposite directions. This isn't busy-work, this has a purpose.

You want me to towncase a non consensus player right? I'm tempted to do DGB but I've kinda already made my points and I'm not exactly.. sure. It might be DGB instead of Titus or DGB *and* Titus if I'm way off.

town!fidget has been spotted

that leaves titus, flea, and one of pooky/dgb

O.O

the last three people who AtE'd me in a way that made me townlock them are Hectic Isis and MorningTweet if you need examples

Too bad they all died tragic deaths in the end.

More stuff to look at but gotta go.

[Fidget]

I

think

know

I can confidently say Titus is scum at this point in time.

[Fidget]

Mush, I didn't even realize you wanted me to scumcase Gloria until Flea pointed it out, haha. Sorry for giving Titus an "out", but I'm 95% sure she'd have refused anyway.

Interactions today. Not defensive, seems genuine, still unsure of me (not trying to buddy up or anything) Seemsgood.

what parts are genuine in fidget?
didn't you just say being "unsure" is a scumtell on the last page?

Okay, Shelley was trying to get Fidget scrolled.

I was trying to get her scrolled harder, I bet.

I feel like I'm constantly flirting with potentially getting scrolled this game. Although a big part of that was me placing my bets on shelly being scum.

Pedit: I really want the solve to be completely within Titus/DGB/Flea/Adorbs, but I kinda don't think it is. I feel extremely strongly that Titus is scum, but Flea is half that strength, and DGB weaker based off of associatives with the first two.

At the same time I'm running out of other places to look.

[Fidget]

I suppose a pretty simple answer is that scum!DGB has mostly lost, so the best she can do is hard bus Titus, pray that we kill off other people while she keeps SRing her, and then maybe get some amount of towncred off the flip down the line.

[Fidget]

;-;

[Fidget]

I wish I'd have pushed Titus/DGB disaligned harder.

ehhh ok I mean I think it flips scum and I guess it makes the vote target clear

There is way more evidence for Titus though

That's one of the reasons I'm going with DGB here, actually. DGB has a better chance of survival if left to live to Day 4.

I agree. It should be obvious to everyone that they are both trying to save the other one but for some reason it isn’t.

You're scum aren't you

I've been on Titus' ass all game, I'm trying to

save

her????

Town can't be this disingenuous.

I am bewildered that people interpreted you as saving Titus. I wasn't sure that you were disaligned because maybe you go for the hard bus. But it was pretty clear you weren't trying to save her.

I think the confusion came from you saying you wanted to be scrolled and give it to Titus. Maybe. You didn't outright say "Mush give it to Titus" so maybe people got confused. I don't really know.

[Fidget]

;-;

Translation?

I am sad it wasn't the scroll I wanted, and that I failed to vouch for DGB much. I was uncertain.

[Fidget]

As much as I agree with Taylor, this is entertaining af. DGB is even ignoring things people are quoting from MUSH's posts :P

Titus: DGB is lockscum, Lim Tayl0r.
DGB: Titus is confiscum. Kill someone other than her or me, preferably Flea, who is pinging me.

It’s like a comedy of Kamikaze scum here.

Yeah this is a stretch... DGBs last read of me was null. You comparing DGB to Zdenk stinks a bit too, I point you to my own reads list people seem to love to hate, where I open stated I'd not been paying attention to slots.

People should be questioning their town reads of you after these.

Yes

Why do you think town is losing?

... you're paying attention to Gloria's parcheesi level analysis.

Lmao

hot take: dgb is town. titus wants us to shoot dgb and we're now doing it.

Yes again

[Fidget]

It's probably still Flea/Titus. I am convinced Titus is scum, less so on Flea.

I don't hate what Flea is saying about Gloria recently, but I don't really think Gloria is scum.

Assuming DGB is town which is what I'm thinking, there's 1 scum I'm townreading and 2 if Flea is town. I have known this for quite some time but not been able to come up with a satisfying answer as to who.

[Fidget]

Nevermind, Mush is a genius.

[Fidget]

VOTE: Titus
Fantastic
Respect to MUSH for standing by her choice even when it looked like it was wrong

For sure.

[Fidget]

Can you yeet Titus before the mod shows up?

I'd love to see it and it would make up for my miselmination.

Give me some justice.

VOTE: Titus

CHOO CHOO

@Fidget, why wasn’t she trying to get Mush to scroll Titus BEFORE Mush made the scroll on DGB official? She obviously has to know that she can’t get Titus yeeted now.

My response to this would have been, "Why does scum!DGB hard tunnel her partner from the get-go?" I mistakenly chalked up her not advocating for Titus being scrolled as a setup misunderstanding. Silly me.

I suppose scum really was just cornered, so they don't have much left to do. Perhaps Flea's suspicions on Gloria is just another result of them running out of places to look.

[Fidget]

Court Jester: Uno (I still be salty about the question marks)

Hey no UNO's been killing it

Yes, I saw the prompt Gloria.

I just need to find the time to look at whether she was actually trying to get them scrolled or was playing the odds.

I guess we’re in for a wait.

Why does no one care about my interactions towards the scum? It's always how the scum treated me with you guys :c

I ship Murdercat with Pooky.

I think we win after Titus/Fleas' demises, because I think the presented alternatives (Gloria, Adorable, Pooky??, Taylor??????) are all town.

Maybe there's a potential theory that scum all decided to hyperbus a while back which would implicate UNO (and me) as final scum, but I lean strongly against it being him.

[Fidget]

Hey no UNO's been killing it

Nope. He can be jester.

Biassssed.

[Fidget]

I'd be shocked if it's anyone besides Flea. Please don't bap me, tayl0r >x3

I'm essentially certain on Pooky, Bell, Murderkitty, and of course, Noraa.

Very near that strength with Gloria. Adorable a little lower.

The only thing I entertain a little bit is that UNOwen, shelly and Titus all conspired to hard-bus each other as a tactic. But I doubt it. I like UNOwen too.

[Fidget]

Remember when it was feeling a bit hopeless on D2? Haha. Felt like our town bloc was dangerously close to imploding quite a few times there. Nicely done Mush/Bell and whoever else read Fred good.

[Fidget]

If you're town, then I think you're probably right on it being Adorbs. There are more reasons to like UNOwen by far, and I don't foresee it being Gloria. Are there really any candidates outside of there?

If Tayl0r takes her time then I'll look over you and Adorbs again tomorrow, because why not. My reasons for townreading her could be better.

[Fidget]

Not in a "stop the presses, we need to skip over Adorbs/Flea and shoot in the townbloc" kinda way. More of a.. try and call it right and win the game slightly faster kinda way. I'm definitely for nuking the PoE. But doesn't hurt to try and win instantly, either.

[Fidget]

Well that's why I want to review you two specifically, no?

I mostly just think it'd be cool to get it right with this one final bounce.

What's your level of confidence that it's Adorbs? I notice you put a lot of emphasis on how the setup will be open season after the PoE is deceased. Do you think it will happen?

[Fidget]

VOTE: Flea

Your move, Noraa

[Fidget]

If it's not Flea, it's me or UNO so I think you'll be alright.

Or are you two thinking it's most likely a deepwolf?

[Fidget]

Oh. I assumed you were waiting because it was X-1.

[Fidget]

@mod

Does the game end if final scum is holding the scroll?

[Fidget]

I do like playing rogue.

[Fidget]

@mod

Does the game end if final scum is holding the scroll?

I would assume so, because they die. :lol:

Yes, but there's a slight potential issue. If it does, we can treat everyone holding the scroll as confirmed town now.

[Fidget]

My time has come!!

[Fidget]

One of the obvious townies is a faker. I am certain it's not Noraa. I will probably give thought to everybody else, then.

..or I could just hit UNOwen.

[Fidget]

Now I'm officially scrolled, I want who you all think is clear, and the justification.

Oh

I read this as "I think who all you want is clear."

Lmao okay that makes more sense.

Noraa
Bell
-
Pooky
Murderkitty
-
Gloria
-
UNOwen

<without rereading>

I really don't think it's Gloria or anyone above her though :I need to reassess

[Fidget]

My parents went hiking while I was practicing and someone broke into their car while they were hiking :/

maybe it was Fidget

I heard she is a notorious hammer thief

I wouldn't break into somebody's car to steal

coins

! That's ridiculous!

[Fidget]

Wait, what's the best reason we have for Murderkitty being town?

[Fidget]

Well ik Murderkitty, and Bell, and Pooky, and Noraa are all stupid obvious town, but may as well think about these things.

I better start getting excited about an UNOwen hyper bus theory or something. I'm sure it's plausible.

[Fidget]

Just put Noraa/Bell in finals, and you can't lose. I'd kill off Kitty and Pooky before them.

I might actually get the last scroll toss of the game, though! That is exciting.

[Fidget]

Well somebody is worried about being the towniest of the town. Maybe. So much talking. Ugh.

Well ik Murderkitty, and Bell, and Pooky, and Noraa are all stupid obvious town, but may as well think about these things.

I better start getting excited about an UNOwen hyper bus theory or something. I'm sure it's plausible.

How am I not “stupid obvious town” after DGB flip?

That didn't really factor into my townread of you. I am not terribly concerned with how other players interacted with DGB at the end there, because it was clear she was going to die. I'm sure I'm missing something from that part but whatever.

I'm sure you weren't planning to but Fidget if you do get hold of the scroll next then I hope you will not immediately curse me, even if your mind is already set by that point.

I won't. I feel bad I accidentally hammered Flea.

[Fidget]

And someone so desperate for the scroll she's practically chewing on it...

You misunderstand. I like the idea of throwing the last toss of the game into scum and ending the game with it. But I don't actually

want

the scroll nor am I terribly interested in that responsibility.

At least, I think that's what you're referring to. I'm not desperate for the scroll, I was assuming you would want to finish off the PoE, where the next in line is me.

[Fidget]

Oh, my apologies, I thought you were referring to me. That uh, makes a lot more sense.

I'm looking over the town block members and remembering as many reasons I can think of for them being town at the moment.

[Fidget]

Spoiler:

- Noraa -

Shelly pushed hard for her to get killed in a way that seemed very disingenuous to me.
She went outside of her emotional range as scum during day one
Hard tunneled not by one, but two scum. I am near certain Fred wouldn't have done that had Noraa been scum.

I would never believe it if Noraa is scum this game. I really couldn't.


- Bell -

The earliest to call out shelly for being scum.
Had that particular reaction to being pushed I have observed him do in every town game. I suspect he's outside of his emotional range just as Noraa is.
Zdenek's 753 lol
Something about this one. Generally all of his posts towards shelly feel genuine to me
Bell also murderized Zdenek/Fred, even back before everybody was on Fred. He preferred Zdenek as scum to most of the other low posters and also over me I think
Lapsa blaming Bell for him noping out
Fred area in general is really good. Plus the area after the flip. I'm pretty happy with it

Overall a really good game for Bell if scum, but I don't think so. I think he's out of his scumrange from what I have heard about it in Antechamber + (Monks or 2d3 i forget which).


- Pooky -

I believe it that the fun got sucked out of this game for him during D1 with the Isis stuff. I think his apathetical attitude during D2 was real as well.
The prickliness towards Taylor and Murderkitty surprises me if he's scum, it reads to me he's town that just doesn't care.
Does Pooky pull this sort of stuff as scum? He's a good scum player from what I have heard/seen, I think Pooky would have cared more about playing the game beyond (mostly) being spiteful towards people suspecting him and getting apathetic. Yes he did way more than that, granted, but this is just completely a completely new look I've never seen from him before, I suppose.
Specifically the spitefulness towards Murderkitty feels genuine every time I read it

Not a ton of this read is rooted in associations, I guess it's more about how I'm feeling Pooky would play if scum. Weaker than the other two for sure.


- Murderkitty -

Generally have heard that he is out of his scumrange, although I've never played with him before.
The overconfidence in his solve D1 -> the sadness the followed D2 felt real to me. I am impressed if he went for that as scum. No hedging bets, he just felt like he had the solve right, he wasn't, and then he had to deal w/ that.
Good shelly scumread of course. Surely if she was his designated bus, he'd have agreed with me more that her reaction was totally faked? I notice on D3 he went pretty hard on her being scum, but not before there.
During/after shelly's death he is spot-on with DGB/Titus being two of the scum remaining
Very much has the best final 2 imo (Bell/Noraa)

(-) Was okay with the Noraa/Pooky/Taylor nuke because they were difficult to read
(-) Somewhat responsible for getting the three town killed D1. Strongly advocated for Noraa being killed as an information flip for a while. I am not terribly bothered by these, but I suppose I should note them
(-) Did kinda add fuel to possible townbloc destruction by doubting Fred wagon
(-) 4500 Maintained a LLD suspicion (and a Pooky one). Caved into the Fred wagon only after casing LLD/Pooky and saying we were probably being "snowed by strong scum". Wanted LLD dead even after Fred died.

Don't get me wrong I like Murderkitty a lot, I just found a lot of ways to tinfoil him I guess. I think his attitude towards it being blatantly obvious he's town when I mentioned suspecting him earlier is also probably town indicative since I'm sure I'm missing/forgetting a lot of the things that made him obvtown during the early game especially.

zzZzZzzz too tired to do Gloria/UNOwen, but it is likely I'd shoot the two of em before these four or at least UNOwen. At the moment I'd shoot UNOwen then Gloria then Pooky then Murderkitty. I might swap Gloria and Pooky after actually reading there too.

Conclusion: It's certainly possible Pooky could have a "don't care" attitude as scum and I'm just wrong on him, sure. Murdercat played in a way that would have actually given his team a chance (doubting Fred wagon and saying we should be looking at Pooky/LLD snowing us instead), but he dropped that after a while. And it's not Bell/Noraa.

[Fidget]

Good luck with the interview Bell.

I'm just gonna take a shortcut with Gloria and say the kind of attitude she is taking after the DGB flip probably comes from town among other things I don't feel like looking thru.

After finishing that post, I feel like I saw someone mention Pooky might have tried to block the Fred elim at first using VCA or something. I can't find it but sure. I'll put UNOwen/Pooky as my guess.