Micro 975: The Shape of Water [END]

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: gamma

[Infinity 324]

I like gamma for town

[Infinity 324]

SS, do any of you have reads yet?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: taylor

[Infinity 324]

I didn’t like the tone of 56, I think town is more likely to just say “oops didn’t realize it was f-1”

[Infinity 324]

Nah I meant the other part actually. It felt a little pre-emptively defensive.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I think it's worded in a slightly more scum-indicative way.

[Infinity 324]

Why is pun scum?

[Infinity 324]

26 was scummy

-merc

You think pun was looking for a reason to jump on someone, or what?

[Infinity 324]

Why is pun scum?

Also weird that Infinity asks about pun and not himself who's at the bottom. Why weren't you curious about yourself, Infinity?

~pun

Normally I find that discussing people's reads on other people more helpful, since we have the same perspective.

[Infinity 324]

Also weird that Infinity asks about pun and not himself who's at the bottom. Why weren't you curious about yourself, Infinity?

~pun

pretty much all of infinity's posts seem extremely awkward, I might have to meta him just to make sure he doesn't read like this as town too but so far he just feels... frozen and forcing himself to post, if that makes sense, which is not a feeling I'm getting from anyone else. Then again he could always have reverse polarity and hate playing town

I'm just an awkward person in general I think, I'm also trying to get the game going since it's been a bit slow so far.

[Infinity 324]

we could always do a general RQS of "do you like playing scum?" but honestly I don't care about like 75% of people's responses to that so I might as well just ask infinity, but if anyone else wants to say their thoughts too they're welcome to do so

I like playing scum, but it's also stressful. (Also I don't have any completed games in the last 3 years, but meta could be helpful)

since we should have the same perspective.

ftfy?

Yeah

[Infinity 324]

I'm just an awkward person in general I think, I'm also trying to get the game going since it's been a bit slow so far.

VOTE: Infinity

Why was your vote on Swift naked if you were trying to get the game going?

~pun

Sometimes seeing how people react to naked votes can be very informative.

[Infinity 324]

@Creature, derp: Reads?

[Infinity 324]

I didn’t like the tone of 56, I think town is more likely to just say “oops didn’t realize it was f-1”

yeah whereas my post was "oh oops didnt realize, well this is even better now.
isnt this the game where i caught you super early?

There’s nothing in your ISO about you scumreading me, do you scumread me?

Yeah I think it's worded in a slightly more scum-indicative way.

oh yes your words are scum indicative even if your actions are exactly what i wxpect of town

Yep

[Infinity 324]

My guts says town on sailor but also feel like they should be moving the game along more for how much they’re posting. May just be the weirdness of being in a hydra though.

[Infinity 324]

My guts says town on sailor but also feel like they should be moving the game along more for how much they’re posting. May just be the weirdness of being in a hydra though.

infinity my dearest friend this is such a non read and ur good friend derp would like to know how u are reading a three headed hydra

Yes I have a null read on page 6 lol

I don’t think Infinity and Pun are scum together. Between the 2 I think Infinity is scum.

74 feels like scum defending a Townie. The bit of shade on SS in 131 doesn’t sit right with me either.

For punpun, I liked the first head’s reason for voting Infinity. The second head came and reversed the vote because they agreed about Taylor, but I think the second head’s posts as a whole look more genuine and overall more Towny for the slot.

VOTE: Infinity 324

Why does one of me and pun have to be scum? Don’t see how you’re interpreting 74 as a defense either, I was trying to see SS’s reasoning. Not a fan of this vote.

[Infinity 324]

well limitlessness 324 derp is not questioning the fact that u have a null read but the fact that u felt the need to share that read and is also albeit a bit for selfish reasons curious as to how u are reading a three headed hydra because derp does not think it is possible to properly evaluate that

Oh I see. I voiced it to potentially start a conversation and get people to see where my head is at. I’m honestly trying to read them the same as I would anyone else, I certainly disagree that it’s not possible thought I definitely uunderstand how there can be weirdness there.

[Infinity 324]

Gamma I think it’s an act lol, it’s NAI

[Infinity 324]

well limitlessness 324 derp is not questioning the fact that u have a null read but the fact that u felt the need to share that read and is also albeit a bit for selfish reasons curious as to how u are reading a three headed hydra because derp does not think it is possible to properly evaluate that

Oh I see. I voiced it to potentially start a conversation and get people to see where my head is at. I’m honestly trying to read them the same as I would anyone else, I certainly disagree that it’s not possible thought I definitely uunderstand how there can be weirdness there.

but extensiveness 324 lets say hypothetically u are townreading one head, scumreading another and the last one is just a decent lad, how would u go on about reading that? it would be difficult for me to not listen to my fathers teachings

Yeah it’s difficult, I would try to take into account the reads on all three heads (so my read in your example would be null).

[Infinity 324]

Gamma do you have a read on SS?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: creature I think I remember you posting content as town but not as scum. Can you give us reads or something?

[Infinity 324]

Understandable, it's not always easy to stay engaged. Do your best.

[Infinity 324]

Ok, were there any posts in this game that gave you scumvibes or townvibes at all?

[Infinity 324]

I hope you are able to get engaged in this game at some point, unfortunately you are probably scum cause meta

[Infinity 324]

Hmm I should probably actually research creature's scum meta

Gamma did you get way better at scum and are just scum here? I feel like you make more an effort to push the game forward as town usually

[Infinity 324]

Lol ok I'll probably be able to read you later

Don't you dare NK me though >:(

[Infinity 324]

<3

[Infinity 324]

It's both.

[Infinity 324]

Taylor do you just play antagonistically as town? I miss when you tried to buddy me in matrix decipher

[Infinity 324]

I promise <3

Also it plays to your wincon to pocket me, I'm giving out free TR's

[Infinity 324]

I promise <3

Also it plays to your wincon to pocket me, I'm giving out free TR's

heh but by now you have probably figured out that i dont care about being townread

Well maybe we'll find the scumz together!

pun, do you have any other thoughts? I feel like I pointed out most of what was in your last two posts already.

PEdit: aww <3 now I don't know what to make of the above lol

[Infinity 324]

Why is ss below null? Also, readlists are fun:

{punpun, taylor, derp}
{gamma, ss}
{alchemist, creature}

[Infinity 324]

It's just gut, I kinda liked 135 and 136. Maybe should be null.

[Infinity 324]

Gamma can you give me a scum!creature game where he ~did things~

[Infinity 324]

i somewhat dislike gamma for defending creature here.

What’s wrong with it?

because although i dont know creature well enough to know if this play is AI, i think the consensus seems to be that even if creature isnt confscum for lurking, that its at least somewhat scum indicative. defending creature is an odd take.

That makes sense honestly. Thoughts on pun?

[Infinity 324]

Why is ss below null? Also, readlists are fun:

{punpun, taylor, derp}
{gamma, ss}
{alchemist, creature}

derp would like to know why u are scumreading the alchemist

See 139

[Infinity 324]

It felt manufactured to me, I think if he was genuinely trying to read me he would at least see that 74 wasn't a defense. Could be trying to explain a gut read, but eh

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I'm still at the stage of the game where I'm stretching to find reasons not to read people as null, it'll at least help move the game forward that way.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: gamma I don't like it

[Infinity 324]

I feel like you're trying to find a place to vote that's not you/creature. I didn't think you'd be satisfied by my reasons, I normally hate using bad logic as a scumtell and you never really did either iirc. My reasons were surface level enough that I think you'd have noticed it without me having to explain it.

[Infinity 324]

Not that I didn't get scumpings from alchemist from that post, but I don't think they were strong enough to really convince town!gamma (even with the meta argument)

[Infinity 324]

I defined it in that post. Trying to undermine someone’s read on a slot. It’s like a more subtle version of chainsaw defending.

I still don't see how you think that, but ok

The "or what" was giving SS an opportunity to explain what their take was

[Infinity 324]

Taylor what’s your read on me now?

[Infinity 324]

I’m suspicious but ok

[Infinity 324]

I did say I was giving out free townpoints, I also see how you could really townread me for the past couple pages but it seemed a bit fast

PEdit: ok

[Infinity 324]

Nvm keep it up <3

[Infinity 324]

Who's scum alchemist?

[Infinity 324]

I still regret joining this game and no matter what I do today I will be forced to wait one week for the deadline and I will probably die of boredom before

Would talking about something help?

[Infinity 324]

I really have to meta creature more, but I do think creature's recent posts about gamma have been towny. I think gamma could've been WKing creature or defending him for good reason. Would still like to see the creature!scum game where he was active.

[Infinity 324]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=76709
This is the one I remember the most, though there’s probably others

He never really gives in-depth reasons for his reads/thoughts in this game, even though he seems to be putting in effort.

[Infinity 324]

Creature if I'm town is gamma or taylor more likely to be scum buddying me?

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: don't think you're scum here

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: taylor yeah ok, I think she's trying to buddy me and use the "would scum be so obvious" as wine. Town buddying feels different, there's more of a compromise aspect rather than just having the same opinions on a few things.

[Infinity 324]

Where do you think she did the "would scum be so obvious" thing?

It's just the feeling I got since she really strongly buddied me after I directly asked her too, and the way she did it felt scummy.

[Infinity 324]

could u guys explain ur read and progression on each other?

Basically, I wanted to engage with her more because I thought I could get a better read on her that way, and because it makes the game more enjoyable for me. I wanted to wait until d2 or something to really read her, but her behavior around me has been scummy enough since then that I feel pretty confident. Idk, the gamma vote was suspicious enough on its face that I find it hard to believe taylor thinks I'm locktown just for pointing that out.

[Infinity 324]

285 was a bit too easy of a conclusion to jump to as well, and I also don't see a ton of sorting of the gamma/alchemist slots from her point of view. Like gamma's hop onto alchemist was opportunistic, but alchemist is also scum maybe?

[Infinity 324]

V&M, thoughts on other people?

[Infinity 324]

Updated thoughts on taylor?

[Infinity 324]

I think gamma and pun and probably you are town, don't have strong reads on anyone else.

[Infinity 324]

Willing to compromise on alchemist or maybe derp/V&M

[Infinity 324]

They're null

[Infinity 324]

We have less than 2 days, it’s really not enough to form a wagon, get a claim, and potentially have time to form a new wagon if there’s a believable claim.

[Infinity 324]

I’m not as confident we can avoid a no elim as you, but ok

VOTE: alchemist

[Infinity 324]

for example right now im very skeptical of you. but we did mindmeld earlier, so... now im just confused.

I feel like as town if you’re so confident in this to begin with you just stick with that. But I’m less confident in you being scum now I guess

[Infinity 324]

This meaning the mindmeld

[Infinity 324]

Lol stop

[Infinity 324]

Ok can we run up someone and get a claim because there's not a ton of time to form another wagon if necessary.

[Infinity 324]

I want to avoid a no elim and have time for a claim.

[Infinity 324]

Like compromising on null reads is normal for d1 right?

[Infinity 324]

Fair enough. You do feel town to me from these recent posts so

I'll be busy most of tomorrow, but I'll check in every once in a while and move my vote around if necessary

[Infinity 324]

Can you quote cause I really don't see it

[Infinity 324]

Is this a meta thing cause I've definitely seen scum use more nuance than that. I agree that 315 is slightly towny.

[Infinity 324]

I don't think you're defending a buddy so I'll trust your read

UNVOTE:
VOTE: derp

[Infinity 324]

where does that derp vote come from?

Seems like something people can agree on maybe?

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: assuming deadline is extended

[Infinity 324]

Not sure, creature just hasn't been around much.

[Infinity 324]

I'm gonna check into the meta, the reason I trusted it was because it felt genuine from mars's side, and they were confident in it.

[Infinity 324]

358 is a scummy post, I'll say that. Not convinced on pun being scum but maybe? They might be the real ones buddying me lol

[Infinity 324]

Yeah, to me it was the fact that the meta seemed so important to them but they didn't look at it/ask for it earlier. Is it so unlikely that scum would do that?

PEdit: I actually thought gamma looked good coming out of the whole voting alchemist thing. His mindset seemed to be consistent with trying to get a slow game moving.

[Infinity 324]

I think his taylor vote after that was good as well, even though I'm not sure I agree that she's scum at this point. But I liked the reasoning in 297.

[Infinity 324]

Should probably go to sleep but I'll think more about this game tomorrow.

[Infinity 324]

I didnt catch that before but the mocking tone in the first part doesnt really line up to me with how theyre choosing to deal with the slot in that same post

Explain why? I'm irritated with what he's saying in calling the game boring, saying it's a loss due to the playerlist etc, it's negative and anti-fun. But still, I thought it was town-indicative at the time because it draws a lot of negative attention, and scum usually aren't so bold.

~pun

I feel like you’d be more skeptical of the meta then, if you really think it’s rare for scum to do the negativity thing. The way you’ve approached the creature slot feels weird and it feels like you’re jumping on the opportunity for a potential ML/solid scumread.

[Infinity 324]

But the people who know creature’s meta have him as a light town read, that’s why I’m confused.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: punpun

[Infinity 324]

It’s fine to scumread player B because of player A’s meta reasons. It may even be possible (though a bit questionable) to do so while player A is townreading them. But to do so without difficulty/contradiction doesn’t make sense from a town perspective.

[Infinity 324]

If you don’t want to look into the meta, why not engage? It feels like you’re worried that you’ll lose the SR if you do that.

[Infinity 324]

I don't get what you mean about this meta thing. At no point did Gamma or Mars say they were townreading Creature because of meta, Mars only mentioned that apathy is NAI for Creature.

This post doesn’t usually come from scum. Creature acted this way, actually worse in a game where he ultimately flipped town. He’s genuinely trying and he doesn’t sound off like he did in TBoNtB. The negativity by itself is NIA.

This is different

~pun

Yeah but you’re scumreading creature using

their

meta reasons. Like your weighting V&M’s meta reasons more than V&M themselves.

[Infinity 324]

I guess you’re not townreading* creature cause of the meta? Idk, I’m kinda done trying to explain this, you used meta reasons that weren’t yours to come to a different conclusion than V&M.

[Infinity 324]

Really? That unvote felt like backtracking to me, they were called out for their bad reasoning.

Also sorry pun that you're being voted, but I think you're scum here

[Infinity 324]

Why bulge? 467 felt a bit fake to me, but I liked their other posts, especially 520.

[Infinity 324]

You could be a mafia vanilla cop/neapolitan, so I'm skeptical.

[Infinity 324]

if there's a real doc/Neapolitan

I feel like this is a real scumslip.

[Infinity 324]

Aww <3 Unfortunately I realized you're scum

[Infinity 324]

I haven't seen the movie, I assume the mod gave you a fakeclaim though

[Infinity 324]

Normally scum get fakeclaims in theme games. Also I wasn't gonna say this but there's a sample VT role pm so...

I didn't get flavor in my role pm

[Infinity 324]

Someone just hammer

[Infinity 324]

pun and punpun are giving new meaning to the term "scum theater", I'm kinda digging it honestly

[Infinity 324]

Makes sense, it does say it can be any alignment so

I think they made up the part about being the main character, since we don't have flavored roles.

[Infinity 324]

if there's a real doc/Neapolitan, they should counterclaim us but they don't exist most likely, so there won't be any CCs

This is just a scumclaim so

[Infinity 324]

641 made me lol

[Infinity 324]

I think they're just a scum bunyip.

[Infinity 324]

What?

[Infinity 324]

Oh ok. You want to hammer?

[Infinity 324]

Really? I just see scum panicking and trying to draw out a CC. I feel like there was enough pressure on the slot for there to be a real scumslip, I don't see how town posts 592.

[Infinity 324]

I’m going to sleep now, someone please hammer

Going to ISO taylor over the night phase cause I’m not sure about her atm

[Infinity 324]

I guess we massclaim cause it's MeLo, I kinda wanna start with the bulge

[Infinity 324]

I'm pretty confident creature is town

[Infinity 324]

Yeah it did feel like alchemist genuinely thought punpun was scum.

[Infinity 324]

I think you should be, but we can wait for alchemist and creature to get here I suppose

[Infinity 324]

Honestly bulge I prefer if you’d just claim now, I don’t really want to wait for creature to get here to move the game along

[Infinity 324]

Alchemist, who claims next? (may I suggest Taylor)

[Infinity 324]

i kinda want creature to go early because i think forcing an early claim there will also be helpful in sorting a null slot. bulge is fine other than that. alchemist should be early too imo.

I kind’ve liked that he was the one quoted the bunyip thing. I kind’ve liked his reaction to that. I just wish Punpun hadn’t of tried to ram a Creature misfade through, because they never would have been misfaded otherwise.

I really have no idea who’s scum. Both heads are slightly suspicious of Bulge but that’s about it.

~M

tmi slip that creature is town?

I don’t really like that this is what Taylor is focused on atm

[Infinity 324]

We could be ok, do you want V&M to claim or me?

[Infinity 324]

Yeah

[Infinity 324]

I claim total idiot, because I’m a 1-shot weak friendly neighbor who crumbled that I would target taylor last night before realizing she’d crumb ascetic. So now I have to wait until we elim scum to use my shot I guess

[Infinity 324]

Going to ISO taylor over the night phase cause I’m not sure about her atm

[Infinity 324]

Weak = I die if I target scum.

I didn’t use my shot, didn’t think about the possibility that I could get it back.

I think we just have to wait until we elim scum, scum kills me and if there aren’t 2 deaths we assume there’s no guilty and move on.

[Infinity 324]

Hmm if we no elim here scum kills alchemist, would that help us? I still can’t use my shot cause if I target scum we lose.

I think alchemist is town cause 6v2 is rough for town. Weak friendly neighbor + tracker + N2 bulletproof + bunyip seems reasonable? Don’t know which side the ascetic should be on for balance

[Infinity 324]

Killing taylor might just be the play

Tbh a taylor/bulge scumteam makes sense since the ascetic member will always perform the kill. That was kinda my solve anyway.

[Infinity 324]

Nothing is stopping a taylor/V&M team. Could be an S/S/T neighborhood, V&M could be lying about who was in the neighborhood. So if V&M and taylor are scum and we do your plan:

If scum kills you, me and bulge are clear and we decide between creature/V&M.
If scum kills me, creature is clear and y'all decide between bulge/V&M.

Not the end of the world imo. Personally I'm more confident in creature being town than V&M though.

[Infinity 324]

Probably not, but I'm more confident in creature being town than you

[Infinity 324]

Recently saw a normal game with S/S/T neighborhood

[Infinity 324]

Like, if you're scum with taylor it doesn't even matter if both of you are in the neighborhood, you could just say you were. I don't think it's likely but it's a possibility to consider. If I'm wrong on bulge/taylor you're the most likely to be scum based on my reads. I don't think me being scum makes sense from a setup perspective.

[Infinity 324]

Alchemist is town cause setup. Creature is town by play. Everyone else could be scum fmpov. I have to do ISOs to figure out which teams make sense but that's where I'm at atm.

[Infinity 324]

What I’m saying is I’m not sure how I could be scum in a balanced setup from your POV. I’ll have to do ISOs but I’m not sure what from your D1 play makes you super town. I never scumread you but I never had a super strong TR either.

[Infinity 324]

I never wanted to elim creature, taylor was my #1 choice for a while but I’ll have to go look at your play then. Defending town doesn’t get you a

ton

of cred when scum wasn’t really under pressure.

[Infinity 324]

Yes hard TRing town as scum limits your options but it’s not infeasible.

[Infinity 324]

I’ve never played with you before so yeah. Creature, can V&M ever be scum here?

[Infinity 324]

Weak = I die if I target scum.

I didn’t use my shot, didn’t think about the possibility that I could get it back.

I think we just have to wait until we elim scum, scum kills me and if there aren’t 2 deaths we assume there’s no guilty and move on.

this doesn't make sense. why would there be 2 deaths if scum kills you?

I mean, theoretically scum could kill alchemist, and then I could possibly get a guilty. Probably won't happen, but yeah.

[Infinity 324]

did I miss something? why are so many people removing creature from their PoEs with the same confidence as if he were mechanically cleared

I don't think creature has the capacity to fake what he's done this game as scum. The way V&M defended creature on d1 also didn't feel like a scumbuddy defense, so I'm trusting their read somewhat.

[Infinity 324]

I really don't think alchemist can be scum, with only 2 strong PRs 6v2 is rough for town

[Infinity 324]

It could look suspicious when people are blocked when trying to target you

[Infinity 324]

I feel like bulge should be pushing the taylor TR harder. Scumbuddy indicative since he realizes taylor is probably going down anyway.

[Infinity 324]

Other than that not a ton of associative tells. I feel like taylor would be fighting her elim harder as town, and in general taylor and the bulge are the only ones trying to question people's logic rather than coming up with their own solves. I'm inclined to townread V&M's insistence on themselves and creature being town, as well as their tone. I also want to trust my earlier scumread on taylor, and gamma's scumread on bulge. Plus bulge did make a few posts that pinged me.

VOTE: taylor

[Infinity 324]

If taylor flips scum and bulge is cleared, I really think V&M is the last scum over creature. Taylor's treatment of creature really doesn't feel like a scumbuddy's.

[Infinity 324]

That's E-1 btw, creature you can hammer when you're ready

[Infinity 324]

If Infinity targets Bulge and I target Creature, then if Bulge is scum Infinity dies and Creature is cleared then we know Bulge is scum. If Infinity dies but I get a guilty on Creature then Creature can't frame Bulge. This also covers the scenario of Infinity being scum because it forces him to produce a result if he's alive; if Bulge dies and I have a clear on Creature it points right to Infinity as scum.

This is fine for night actions

[Infinity 324]

You love meta don't you

But yeah he was pretty obvtown in that game and I'm 85% confident it's just taylor/bulge

[Infinity 324]

gg

[Infinity 324]

no, it was the obsession with your slot. newbscum love to complain about reading hydrae, and I've found it's usually a fairly reliable tell

Don't do this as scum, I actually gave some weight to this read.