Newbie 2043: Cherfnul - Game Over

[ben dover123]

Hello all! Cheers to a good and enjoyable game!

[ben dover123]

Where I'm from, artofproblemsolving.com, we use RQS since our profiles do not reveal gender and specific questions like that. Here are some questions I'd like to ask everyone.

1. Is this your first game or do you have past games? Can you link me your best scum and town games if you do have past games? In other words, what games do you want me to metadive you?

2. Favorite role? Favorite alignment?

3. How good are you at scumhunting (self-evaluation), from 1-10?

My answers:

1. I have finished 1 ongoing game, but it is not completed.

2. I like being a Vanilla Townie.

3. Probably a 3-4. I can catch basic tells but nothing extremely complex.

[ben dover123]

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com

Whoops, screwed the url tags. Here is the actual link.

[ben dover123]

If you wanted something more specific, this is the exact forum where all mafia games are held.
https://artofproblemsolving.com/community/c49
Hm. I'll metadive you soon.

[ben dover123]

I probably will soon receive comments asking why I am not voting in RVS, and the reason is as follows:

At the end of the day, RVS votes are fundamentally flawed and all come down to "it was a random vote" and other baseless reasoning like that, which gets you nowhere.

I am also not a fan of trying to force reactions out of people, and I am not the best at it either. People will react to votes or gamestate eventually, so I am going to be patient and wait for such reactions first.

In this early stage I know what to look for in this gamestate and I will intervene and talk with others when I feel necessary.

[ben dover123]

Ben, how would you like us to proceed then, if nobody votes?

also VOTE: Ben

a bit defensive and passive - not good townie traits

I'm not saying you should not vote, I'm saying do what you wish in RVS, but I believe that

1. RVS is crucial to start the game off but it is a waste of energy to spend arguing over.

and

2. I need to conserve my energy for bigger issues that lie ahead, such as EoD, PR claims and above all, solving the game.

[ben dover123]

@above I wish I could say that, but when I tried a proactive playstyle, I wasted a ton of energy on trying to be obvious town and even worse, I got n1'ed.

But, the energy part isn't nearly as important. Point 1 is why I do not want to participate in RVS voting and reaction fishing. For example, I know some people would argue that since I don't want to participate in RVS I want to prolong it and therefore I am scum, which is an

argument, but it is moving the ball in the wrong direction, especially since the reasoning behind the argument is baseless. I believe natural reactions are the best ones to get the ball rolling in the right direction, especially tonereading early on is a way to create some good reads.

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: Dang it, my post formatted in the wrong way. Sorr y if that looks weird, still working on formatting your posts correctly.

Anyways, being too proactive isn't good for anyone, especially me, because I start to lose focus on my reads and who I'm scumreading if I try and be extremely townie. That is the reason why I may look like I'm being conservative D1, and as Battle Mage said, I look a bit passive.

[ben dover123]

Oh, its 14/2 cycles, not 7/2? I'm an idiot. Ah, I can rest easy now that I know deadline isn't our enemy here.

I don't think "conserve your energy" really applies here? It's only day 1, and there are nights to help you recharge.

Whoops, didn't see the second part of your question. IRL nights don't really help me to recharge at all, and N1 isn't for a long while. I doubt I can be proactive for all 14 days anyways.

If there are any other questions, please tell me so I can answer them now before we get to the actual solving and discussion. I expect after RVS there will be a lot of serious discussion going on, any final questions that people

have for me will likely be ignored in the process.

[ben dover123]

It has been brought to my attention that the deadline counter I gave does not match the ruleset. Today should be 10 days long and further days should be seven. I have corrected this. Apologies.

...

smh

Dang, that means we gotta get on our feet now. I understand that it is a slightly longer deadline (10 days) but the quicker out of RVS the better.

I think our first genuine reaction may be Trendall for his response to pressure.

Idk if I should post my meta here, maybe you will expect something from me that I won't be able to deliver.

This is an awkward sentence. Scum has more motivation to not post their meta then town does. Additionally, you have got the idea of meta wrong, which is surprising noting the fact that you started playing almost a

year ago.

VOTE: clidd

[ben dover123]

In the sense that I am below my meta as a town and scum, considering that I was stopped for many months.

Posting or not posting selfmeta is NAI.

My vote is not all based on posting self meta, it is mainly because I find that sentence awkward in general.

Anyways, I'd still assume that you would post your meta even if you thought that you probably would be below your meta as town? I find the wording to be a bit awkward.

Hum, I feel like my sentences are not so fluent. I need to readjust to the language.

Yes, this is what I mean by awkward sentences.

[ben dover123]

I'm not native to english, so I don't think you will find reads in the way I type, sorry.

Ah, I changed my mind. I will help you, give me a minute.

Hm. That explains a bit of the weird sentence, but I'm not ready to accept this revelation yet. This is where meta comes into play. If I check all of your games and you have the same behavoiur and weird wording around your

sentences, I will pass over this sentence since that proves your awkward sentences are not a first time behaviour.

[ben dover123]

Just a tip: don't say when you're using meta until you have all the data. People will try to avoid their tells if you say that you're looking their past games.

This is part of the surprise trigger.

I'm fairly certain I don't need the surprise trigger here. You specifically said:

Hum, I feel like my sentences are not so fluent. I need to readjust to the language.

and

I'm not native to english, so I don't think you will find reads in the way I type, sorry.

which infers me that you are not native to English and your sentences are awkward, so if I find that your sentences are more competent than you say they are, you are pretending to have a different posting style, which

is a tell. Plus, I'm fairly certain that if you are actually pretending to have a awkward posting style, you would change it soon because I pointed it out. Either which way, it doesn't really matter that I did not decide to use the

surprise factor of meta.

[ben dover123]

In other words, the tip was for future matches.

I've used a lot of meta over the period that I played on the forum and noticed that players are more attentive when you say that you are, in fact, using meta.

They may, for example, even if you are a player known for doing metadive, think that you will not necessarily apply this to all matches.

So the surprise trigger is important: you deny the preparation of the person you are analyzing, and if he is scum, you already constitute an advantage over him.

Yes, I understand the surprise factor in meta but I am just impatient by nature and like to show all my cards at the beginning of the game, thus I wished to try and keep a nice, conservative stance D1. I have to cool down

already, I think I'm almost about to break said conservative stance.

And by extension, just to put it in context, I don't exercise much my english at work, so the fact that I left the site for the last few months ended up reducing my level of verbal fluency.

This discrepancy is noticeable in my sentences and use of some terms, so I am trying to adapt again to the language.

smh. I was just about to note that in 2018 your sentences were very competent, and I was beginning to think that you were actually pretending to not know lots of English. I'd personally like to end this tunnel, thanks. My

conservative stance is on the verge to break here and I think I finally understand the situation you are in currently.

[ben dover123]

Hrm. By searching your recent posts I found that you are playing in a ongoing game and I ISO'ed the posts you made in that game. I don't think I'm allowed to use such posts as examples here because that would be

OOT. I'd like confirmation on this because showing the posts that clidd has made so far in said ongoing game could change a couple things.

[ben dover123]

Hrm. By searching your recent posts I found that you are playing in a ongoing game and I ISO'ed the posts you made in that game. I don't think I'm allowed to use such posts as examples here because that would be

OOT. I'd like confirmation on this because showing the posts that clidd has made so far in said ongoing game could change a couple things.

Can you answer that this is OOT or not?

[ben dover123]

Ok. Well, I think I can understand most of your reasons, however I'm not ready to retract my vote and my suspicious yet.

[ben dover123]

Will comment on Trendall's post later, in a class rn.

[ben dover123]

1. I finished several games on another forum years ago, but I couldn't link to them because IDK if it is still active, and it was a member's only music forum.

This would be your first game on this site, yes? If you have past experience that's good, Mafia is hard to pick up if you just started learning it today or yesterday. None of the experienced players want to teach everything to

clueless newbies anyways.

[ben dover123]

VOTE: Trendall

There is a tell for ''hello'' without vote.

clidd is first mafia on the basis that he supposed loves to use meta, but didn't check back to see if this is just something I commonly do and instead thinks it's like a generalised 'tell'. These two lines of thinking aren't compatible with each other so mafia.

VOTE: clidd

Doing my quick analyzation on this post here.

I'm not 100% sure about clidd yet, but he knows a bit of meta. I'm fairly certain "Hello" is NAI, because I can see town doing it as well, people do not need to spam content in their first post, you know. So, as I see it, both


clidd and Trendall's votes are baseless, and this is a bad tell, just as bad as clidd's tell on you. Tbh this is a bit of a overreaction to such a bad tell on clidd's end, in this case I would just cast off the tell as NAI, which it is.

I'd like to hear more out of Trendall before I vote him for a micro read, which I am not confident in to say the least.

[ben dover123]

Btw, I like your style, Ben.

You fit the leader type.

Thanks!

Are we going to talk about the fact that Trendal said "first mafia" instead or just "mafia" ?

It feels like he's projecting something.

Hmmmm.

I know people who refer to scum as "first scum" and "last scum", so this isn't that surprising to me.

1. This is my first forum mafia game, I have experience with live chat mafia but not forum.
2. favorite alignment is town, preferably a clear power role so i don't have to worry about coming off as scummy.
3. probably like a 4. i am not good at mafia in general.

FTFY

It feels like he's projecting something.

Only arrogance I think like 'one down, one more to go!'

Yeah, I guessed as much. You probably like to order scum as first and last, which I do not personally agree with because scum should be treated as "we can hang them in any order", but you do you.

[ben dover123]

You probably like to order scum as first and last

Only chronologically in that the first person I identify as mafia is 'first mafia', once one mafia has flipped we are then looking for the 'second mafia' and so on. It's a real non-thing, I have no reason to disagree with your saying
that they can be eliminated in any order and I can't think of a reason why anybody ever would.

I play like one setup on epicmafia quite a lot and on there it is very common for people to talk in terms of 'first mafia' and 'second mafia' or 'last mafia' just because of the way that the setup works. I guess just a phrase I'd picked up and had never thought about until now.

Hmph. I hate games like epicmafia and mafia.gg because of the very limited claimspace and little time to talk. However, I cannot object to labeling mafia as first and second or last, because it is just a simple opinion that should

not be heavily trifled with.

Now that most people have made a post in this game, I think we start discussing over our reads now. I want to have a nice coordinated readlist between all of us. I know that it is techincally better to ensue a little more chaos

in order to try and suck some genuine reactions from scum (acting like a genuine town under pressure is a near impossible feat for scum to accomplish) but I plan to reserve that tactic for EoD, when things start to go chaotic

naturally.

Currently, I have one gentle townread, but unfortunately no more than one as there is lack of content from a lot of slots rn.

[ben dover123]

tbh I'm probably going to recede my leadership and proactive role, it is quite tiring and I have other secret reasons to do so. I also want to give the newbies some time to shine brighter than me, I feel like I'm naturally

overshadowing all of them combined. If the newbies are always underneath my shadow they will never learn anything, and plus I may be missing some obvious townreads.

[ben dover123]

it is just a simple opinion that should not be heavily trifled with.

There's nothing in the way of 'opinion' going on, it's just a turn of phrase that doesn't mean anything in terms of any deeper thinking process.

It is an opinion of terms, I mean. The majority of mafia players do not refer to scum in this way, so I consider it a opinion that some have developed, but whether it is a opinion or a "turn of phrase" as you say, we shall not trifle

with this any longer.

There is no 'omgus', I didn't vote for you because you voted me, I voted for you for the reasons that I stated.

I suspect that since your reasoning behind your post is bad, clidd thinks there is a subtle weave of OMGUS in your vote.

The problem is that I'm trying to imagine if it makes sense from your perspective, with the information available, to have a fos on me (in a Town!you scenario).

If I am correct, however, and you are mafia, I don't think you will be able to eliminate me today (which is the point where there is no advantage for Scum!you doing this push).

I follow this reasoning. It is very hard, even with scum SE's, to eliminate another fellow SE D1, so scum Trendall is making a bad push considering there are many other LHF options to attack.

[ben dover123]

For example in England we call dogs 'dogs', and in Spain I think they call them 'perros' or 'perras'. This isn't a 'difference of opinion', it's just...not everybody uses the same words.

I seriously want to have a talk with you, but such a off-topic argument gets in the way quickly and before you know it we are deathtunneling each other.

I imagine you being more harsh, in the sense that you would need to convey to others that I was already obvious to you, so nothing I said would matter in the game.

Haha it's funny because I do that as town.

It is very hard, even with scum SE's, to eliminate another fellow SE D1, so scum Trendall is making a bad push considering there are many other LHF options to attack.

I have done it before in Newbie 2035. They claimed doctor, had no counterclaim and they still got eliminated day one. But then for me personally I make no distinction whatsoever between the SEs and the other players in this game. I think an 'SE' is somebody who has played five or more games of this, which means nothing.

1. ? I don't fully understand. Going to do a bit of motivational analysis to determine where this sentence comes from the majority of the time.

2. Hmph. If you were able to push a SE to be hanged D1, then the chances you are scum become that much higher.

I don't understand why Battle Mage is so inactive, is it part of his playstyle?

Also, looking back I don't understand this either.

Ben, how would you like us to proceed then, if nobody votes?

also VOTE: Ben

a bit defensive and passive - not good townie traits

All I was talking about is why I don't vote in RVS. I can see where the overdefensiveness comes in but the passive part?

[ben dover123]

I seriously want to have a talk with you, but such a off-topic argument gets in the way quickly and before you know it we are deathtunneling each other.

It's not 'off-topic' because the reason it was brought up in the first place was that clidd thought it was an indicator that I was mafia.

Hm. That was not the way I wanted to put it. "Off on a tangent" is probably a more accurate way to say this tunnel will start on topic but slowly drift away from the thread. Anyways, I do not want to hear this argument again.

I'm reluctant to unvote currently as while clidd has been acting pro-town in general he hasn't done any actions that have completely satisfied me or nullified my vote on him. I still cannot get how he has the wrong definition of

meta and somehow that one sentence sounded rather awkward when I know he is capable of being way more competent. Possibly he is not trying his hardest this game and not putting it firsthand, which I can understand but

still.

@above I was born in a world of Mafia where SE's are considered to teach newbies and be extremely competent. I expect much from SE's and fellow SE's should find it quite hard to try and eliminate a SE on D1. However, you

may be a bold one, and if you believe you can push a SE to get eliminated D1, then my standards for you to be scum are much higher now.

[ben dover123]

I don't understand why that would raise the likelihood of my being mafia if it's the case that I don't make any real conscious distinction between SEs and the other players.

Well, it does for me. Let me explain it like this: I usually think scum SE's don't try to eliminate other SE's D1 because they are more competent then say, the LHF's of the game. However, since you admitted that you could possibly push a SE for elimination D1, now your chances of being scum and pushing a clidd elimination are possible.

[ben dover123]

@above I was born in a world of Mafia where SE's are considered to teach newbies and be extremely competent.

How competent, exactly? Are there any further restrictions on becoming an SE? Are you an SE there too?

No, not quite yet. In fact, from the outside SE's seem like a simple name tag because you only need to complete 3 games, but usually that is not the case. I can pull up the requirements here.

he player must have played 3 completed games (games in which that player played at least one full day with a somewhat significant number of posts and wasn't replaced).
2. The player must be active enough so that we don't have huge activity issues.
3. The player must demonstrate that they know how mafia works and are fluent in mafia terminology and conventions.
4. The player must prove that they know how to find scum and construct some sort of logic that points toward someone being scum.
5. The player doesn't have any other big issues (like a tendency to swear, or being modkilled in a game) that would prevent us from making him/her SE.

Sounds simple enough, right? Well, no. They raised SE standards so that you have to complete 3 "awesome" games, where you basically had the best games of your career. Some people take up to 10 completed games to get SE, and most of the SE's there are quite competent in my eyes.

I seriously want to have a talk with you, but such a off-topic argument gets in the way quickly and before you know it we are deathtunneling each other.

I...what? Why can't we just let off-topic chats be off-topic chats?

Because from just a little chatting, I can see that me and Trendall have completely opposite viewpoints for such an argument. Given your join date, I'd expect you to know what happens when two players get too involved in a off-topic argument. tl;dr It never turns out nicely. Usually the off-topic argument starts infiltrating their reads and the chaos that ensues goes straight to scum's advantage.

Hm. I like how Chumbo has set a stance on me, so let me explain some things.

1. Ah. You see, that is being proactive. I could show every card I own currently about everyone, but that makes it easier for scum to try and manipulate my reads (e.g. "pocketing") to get them on the right side. That's why I'm even keeping my soft townlean secret rn.

2. Just asking around is my attempt to see if anyone has bigger takes then me currently. I have my own reasons to keep my reads secret in this current gamestate, like in point 1, and honestly none of my reads are very good anyways.

3. Hm. The weird part of his post for me is 1. his "definition on meta and 2. his wording. I know he should be capable of being much more competent over writing, and I'd expect that he would know meta by now.

[ben dover123]

Ben, just relax.

Guh. I'm getting too tense over this game. I think you are right, probably got to turn it down quite a bit.

Scums are hiding and we'll find them.

My take about the inactive slots is that there is 1 scum in all 4 of them. Scum probably like the current gamestate with so many inactive players, so following the inactive crowd would definitely go in their favor.

[ben dover123]

I would say that a point of stagnation is that BM did not actually enter the game yet. If he's town, we'll have a really good PoE to work with (since Brendall and you are towny imo)

Yeah. As much as I disagree with some of Trendall's points, his overall mood is something similar to 2035 imo.

Still dissatisfied about you but your proactiveness currently gives me some towny vibes, so I think I'll chill with this read for now.

Also, please teach me the arts of the PoE. I need to learn.

[ben dover123]

I know what PoE is, and how to use it, I just don't know how to use it correctly. If you are not sure about your SR's, then work with your fellow villagers. That is like the underlining idea I think.

Hm. I think it is time we start pressuring some inactive slots now.

VOTE: NotAJumbleofNumbers

Looking through his 4 posts, I see nothing that talks about the actual game and he is questioning me about off-topic things. I don't understand why he didn't comment on anything ingame, when there is plenty of new and fresh information we can go off of rn.

Also soft tr on Chumbo for setting his stance as a newbie. His reasoning is incorrect but it looks like a genuine thought process where he is piecing things together.

[ben dover123]

@above that is the correct usage of meta. How can you tell I am "trying" to look town? What is the difference between being town and "trying" to look town?

EBWOP: I'm pretty sure we are all waiting for them to post, but I have a gut feeling that there is at least 1 scum in there due to gamestate rn.

[ben dover123]

The way that you post gives me the feeling that you are trying to look town. The difference between being town and trying to look town, IMO, is that scum will try harder to look town. That is the main thing that makes me suspect you a little.

Hmm, not was I was looking for. I meant examples where I try to look town. Try to see if any of my posts have any fake intentions. However, I can agree with the fact that scum that want early towncredit usually try hard to be town. The key point here is that you have to understand what is genuinely town and what isn't.

[ben dover123]

@above that is the correct usage of meta

In the same way that your use of the word 'opinion' was correct?

Trendall, I thought we agreed to end this argument! And what does this have to do with anything game related?

[ben dover123]

It is an opinion of terms, I mean. The majority of mafia players do not refer to scum in this way, so I consider it a opinion that some have developed, but whether it is a opinion or a "turn of phrase" as you say, we shall not trifle with this any longer.

We shall, the use of the word 'opinion' here makes no sense whatsoever.

Then what does this post stand for?

[ben dover123]

But that makes an equal difference to the chances of my being town and going for a clidd elimination, no?

Going to answer this question now as well.

SE's that are town are ok with pushing their reads and bringing up other SE wagons D1, but since even scum SE's don't want to be caught on a townlynch wagon and usually are afraid to set a solid stance on a townie, I have

never considered or seen any scum SE try to eliminate another SE D1. However, since you have proclaimed that as scum you also aim for fellow SE eliminations, this opens my eyes to you being a scum SE but also pushing for

another SE elimination.

[ben dover123]

Then what does this post stand for?

You said 'we shall not' and I said 'we shall'

:thonk:

I'd rather not get in a scruff this early on in the game, thanks. I just believe it would go too off-topic the longer we talk about it.

[ben dover123]

I don't make any distinction between SEs and the other players in the game, the label 'SE' means absolutely nothing to me. I judge how competent somebody is at the game by how competent they are at the game, not by whether they're an SE or not.

Do you understand my viewpoint on how this opens my eyes to a scenario where you are scum pushing an SE elimination? That is the important part of my post, I already understand that you believe the "SE" tag is just a label.

[ben dover123]

You know how like...the way that you write, you'll be in the middle of a sentence and

then there's a paragraph break. What's the deal with

that?

Please don't troll me here. I really hate people that intentionally mock me, and I can see the jest behind this post, you know.

The reason for the paragraph break is I double-space all my posts so that it is easier to read for everyone. Sometimes the whole sentence won't fit on one line, so I have to double-space and split the sentence in half. Sorry if it

looks weird, I'm still working on my paragraphs and formal writing.

Do you understand my viewpoint on how this opens my eyes to a scenario where you are scum pushing an SE elimination? That is the important part of my post, I already understand that you believe the "SE" tag is just a label.

I understand it, it's just that examples of me wanting to eliminate an SE on day one as town from past games are plentiful. So it's like, I'd do this as town and I'd also do this as mafia. Therefore my doing it isn't a reliable indicator of my alignment at all, it's null information.

Yeah, that is basically my point. I can't TR you for attacking a SE elim, so now attacking an SE elim is NAI.

[ben dover123]

I mean I illustrated it like that because I have no idea what's going on there and I wasn't even sure if you yourself were aware that that formatting error was taking place so it just makes it clearer, I can't see what about that is 'mocking'.

Sigh...Sorry for the kind of overreaction, I was mocked in my other game for my formatting as well. Got some bad memories.

Yes, I am aware of the "error", I'm still trying to find the right balance between correct formatting and easy to read posts.

[ben dover123]

And it was an on-topic question because I needed to work out whether it was a good use of my time or not looking at that for breadcrumbs.

Don't worry, I get it. Actually I can't bear hurting people's feelings, if I ever do I feel bad about it for like three days.

No, I'm extremely bad at breadcrumbs anyways, so I'm not pulling a fast one on you like that.

[ben dover123]

Anyways, I hate to say it but there is not much we can do about all the afk slots rn. The one slot I think we can get some reactions out of is NotAJumbleofNumbers, thus is one of the reasons I am pressuring him. Other than that, there isn't much we can do. I'm going to do some rereading and see if I pick anything up.

[ben dover123]

Going to sleep now, see you all tomorrow!

Also, @above I agree. Get rid of these afk people, I hate flakers.

[ben dover123]

Comments in bold.

But, the energy part isn't nearly as important. Point 1 is why I do not want to participate in RVS voting and reaction fishing. For example, I know some people would argue that since I don't want to participate in RVS I want to prolong it and therefore I am scum, which is an argument, but it is moving the ball in the wrong direction, especially since the reasoning behind the argument is baseless. I believe natural reactions are the best ones to get the ball rolling in the right direction, especially tonereading early on is a way to create some good reads.

Anyways, being too proactive isn't good for anyone, especially me, because I start to lose focus on my reads and who I'm scumreading if I try and be extremely townie. That is the reason why I may look like I'm being conservative D1, and as Battle Mage said, I look a bit passive.

This is a decent example of what makes gives me scum vibes, explaining every action of what you're doing even though no one asked. Posting your meta for us to just accept "yep that's what he's doing must be town". This is what I was talking about when I said trying to look townie.

Wait, when did I post my meta? Also I'm kind of a stream-of-consciousness player, if that makes sense. I wanted everyone to know what was on my mind then and there, plus if I hadn't made an RVS vote but didn't explain why there would be a much bigger argument right now.

This is an awkward sentence. Scum has more motivation to not post their meta then town does. Additionally, you have got the idea of meta wrong, which is surprising noting the fact that you started playing almost a year ago.

Another thing I've realized by this post is you have not only accused me of not having the right idea of meta, but also clidd. You also never actually posted any of your own games.

:thonk: So out of context. This post was directed towards clidd, and clidd only. I never mentioned you anywhere. I only have 1 game on the other forum, and it is where I am scum, so it is basically useless since I completely changed my style from that game as well.

I will say my reading on Ben is mostly gut-based on how he handled the early game. I haven't really seen much recently to make me think he's scum, other than posts seeming kind of fluffed. But with so many people being afk, I'm not really surprised.

Not surprised of what? And what posts are fluff? I want all the details.

I don't find these reasons very secure in any way, and Chumbo added a couple of extra details that never happened, as if to increase the effect of his attack intentionally. This is Chumbo's first game after all, so it is
understandable if his attacks are weak, but adding fake details? Something is off here.

VOTE: Chumbo

I'll hold off on NotAJumbleofNumbers, I think this is slightly more scummy.

We also know that Ben played on a different forum, with different rules and probably an abstract meta, so it may be that this transition is causing a clash of concepts (and it created the bad impression we are feeling from Bren's posts).

Our meta is trash, we only have 200 games ish done on the forum. Also, daytime is much longer (14/2 cycles for newbie games) and there are quite a few different rules too. You can take a look for yourself.

@Post 161 How is NotAJumbleofNumbers the most towny player in the game? That does not make sense.

[ben dover123]

Why declare that it doesn't make sense before you've found out what the answer is?

NotAJumbleofNumbers has 4 posts, which is 1 post being the RQS, and the other 3 posts solely asking questions towards me and not talking about anything related to the gamestate or other people. I'm not sure how to comprehend this as I'd expect they would make at least a couple comments over everyone else too.

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: So I don't understand how NotAJumbleofNumbers is the most towny person in your eyes when they haven't posted anything that gives me town pings.

[ben dover123]

not talking about anything related to the gamestate or other people. I'm not sure how to comprehend this as I'd expect they would make at least a couple comments over everyone else too.

People say this about me when I'm town all the time. Like 'oh I would have expected Trendall to be engaging with other players in the game, asking questions'. Why? What makes you think I would be the type of person who behaves that way?

NotAJumbleOfNumbers was fine with off-topic conversation, I don't see this from mafia-sided players too often.

Nothing says that you would be the type of person to behave this way, it is just common sense that townies want everyone to know they are town, and townies usually have townie behavior naturally. I just find that people who don't show townie traits or behavior naturally are harder to read. Maybe since you have a similar behavior NotAJumbleOfNumbers, you read him town just from chatting about off-topic stuff, but I believe talking about off-topic stuff is NAI.

[ben dover123]

I don't find these reasons very secure in any way, and Chumbo added a couple of extra details that never happened, as if to increase the effect of his attack intentionally. This is Chumbo's first game after all, so it is
understandable if his attacks are weak, but adding fake details? Something is off here.

I didn't add any fake details.
You have been posting your meta and you did call both clidd and I out for our understanding of meta.
Since meta means 1. how a person plays mafia and 2. using past games to look into a persons playstyle, I am using the first definition to say you've been telling us your meta (or how you like to play). Right there in the posts I quoted you said that you try to be extremely townie and may seem conservative.
As for the other "fake detail".

3. Hm. The weird part of his post for me is 1. his "definition on meta and 2. his wording. I know he should be capable of being much more competent over writing, and I'd expect that he would know meta by now.

That's where you called me out

This is an awkward sentence. Scum has more motivation to not post their meta then town does. Additionally, you have got the idea of meta wrong, which is surprising noting the fact that you started playing almost a

and here's clidd. You did call us both out.

1. Ok, that makes a bit of sense. Although I'm not posting my meta because I want you guys to accept it, I'm posting it because I am trying something completely different then what I am used to.

2. I only called clidd out, and where you think I called you out is when I was talking about your points. In post #112, "he" refers to clidd.

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: At the end of the day, I still think the attack was rushed and you forgot some scenarios that were likely, like I'm fairly certain that you could have inferred in Post #112 "he" refers to clidd and the one post where I talked about how I was going to play I explained why I was doing so and it can be seen that my previous playstyle was completely different and I wanted to try again with a fresh slate.

Plus, I'm also kind of uncomfortable with this jab at BM.

I'm VLA for weekend

You have been afk long enough to get prodded (about 37 hours), and now you go VLA without offering anything? I don't like this at all.

I don't think you have the right to attack BM for this, because you aren't that active as well and besides attacking me you haven't offered opinions for anything else. Yes, I acknowledge you have asked questions from everyone, but you haven't made any other takes then me "trying to look town".

UNVOTE: Chumbo

Chumbo's evidence is wrong but looks like a town attack that he tried to piece together but for the wrong reasons.
I think Chumbo does not understand what he is attacking, and his jabs at the afk slots are probably just newbie town motivated, and nothing more than that.

[ben dover123]

I'm VLA for weekend

You have been afk long enough to get prodded (about 37 hours), and now you go VLA without offering anything? I don't like this at all.

I don't think 37 hours is enough for a prod in a newbie game. I just accidentally ended up in too many games and real life got busy.

I'll be back in the mix well before deadline.

This is understandable. 2040 just ended, and wow that game was hella tense.

my early takes are Clidd is scum, and Ben is town. full catch up and assessment to follow after the weekend.

Ok, I can't wait to hear what you have to say about the clidd take

[ben dover123]

Honestly your earlier interactions with Trendall only strengthens my slight scumread on you. In this series of interactions you claim that there is a tell for "hello" without a vote, he responds with what looked like an omgus vote to me, and then you contradict yourself with your response, claiming that you don't think there is a tell for "hello". So which is it? I need to re-read the thread completely when I have a clearer head, but this seems disingenuous to me. Also, your take on Trendall saying "first mafia" seemed like you were grasping at straws.

I'm not sure what to make of clidd yet, but I know that in his town games he basically obvtowns really hard, just a note to keep for later.

Wait woah there is a contradiction! clidd, explain yourself.

Ok, I'm rereading now. I can't believe I missed that.

[ben dover123]

People say when I'm town I usually obvtown, but this isn't a button that I can just turn on.

So idk if I'll eventually be obvtown to your perspective, although I already have the firm feeling that you are town.

? You can't be obvious town manually? I'm sure anyone can be obvious town if they just tried. I'm fairly certain this sentence is null, but I'm surprised to hear that you aren't able to turn on your obvious town switch whenever you like. I'm capable of becoming obvious town and this is just my second game on the forum.

[ben dover123]

I am really confused by all these pages of arguments.I wasnt expecting so many pages in this short time.But clidds interaction with trendall slightly makes him look scum.Ben seems town based on his thoughtful reasonings.Trendall could be either.He doesnt read scum to me nor town.
Chumbo reads slightly town too.But I cant say anything about other players.I am surprised by the hardness of catching scum but I think that it will become easier after night 1(perhaps).If I had to vote now I would vote clidd but I am going to refrain from that as there are still many days to deadline.Sorry I cant provide anything new but I am still a newbie.

Why hello there!

I have some evidence for Trendall's possible alignment, but I'm still working on it. Expect me to show my evidence tomorrow or Sunday.

This game is fast paced and a lot of posts are coming from me/clidd/Trendall. Wanna join in and vocalize the evidence behind your thoughts? We need some activity from the other slots by the weekend, because I'm pissed that I have so many null slots in my reads.

[ben dover123]

I think I ll have to reread some pages so i can organize my thoughts in a better way.

Sounds good!

I'll be around for the next couple of hours, if you finish reading I'd like to hear your thoughts!

Also, if you are from Pakistan, we are likely a 12 hour difference in timezone or something like that. I will likely not have much time to interact with you as our day-night schedules will barely overlap. I think we have to use this time wisely.

I now have a take on clidd too, but I'm going to voice it with my Trendall take because I feel like this take I have is important.

[ben dover123]

Yawn...wallpost coming soon with takes.

Eh? What's Post #193? Hmm...

[ben dover123]

People say when I'm town I usually obvtown, but this isn't a button that I can just turn on.

So idk if I'll eventually be obvtown to your perspective, although I already have the firm feeling that you are town.

? You can't be obvious town manually? I'm sure anyone can be obvious town if they just tried. I'm fairly certain this sentence is null, but I'm surprised to hear that you aren't able to turn on your obvious town switch whenever you like. I'm capable of becoming obvious town and this is just my second game on the forum.

Okay, now this is something I have an issue with. You can't just assert everyone can just look like they're a townie easily, without a problem. I'll use myself as an example here: I have trouble at times

just posting in the thread

, let alone looking "obvious town".

Also, I found a few questions for you that aren't really related to what I just said, but they seem fine to tack on:

In 15, you suddenly defend your choice of not voting in RVS unprompted. Why?

In 69, you said you were probably going to "recede your leadership and proactive role", but you're still posting as frequently as before. Why?

Well, clidd is a special case. I did some research and I found some interesting information about him, as well as his general behavior, tone, and frequency as either alignments. Stay tuned!

1. I have had problems with such before. People argued over why I made a certain RVS vote or why I didn't vote and then all of a sudden, it turns into a full blown argument. When I explained it beforehand, I wouldn't get accused of keeping RVS longer.

2. It's a ton harder than I thought. Being proactive is just me, and it turns out I didn't even change anything over the last 200 posts. I'm just as active as ever, and I'm helping town even more. I have to start capping the amount of posts I make per day, because at this rate I'll never recede the proactiveness.

That seems to be all the questions.

@above Yeah, those reads are basically the opposite of everyone else's currently.

[ben dover123]

Hey everyone, I'm sorry but I have requested to be replaced. I thought I'd have more time but I don't, so I'd rather let someone who can do the game justice take my place. Sorry everyone.

Oh, no worries, forum Mafia can be very quick and hard to keep up with. I hope we play together in another game sometime soon!

Also, borkjerfkin, you have a prod on mars right? It's been 2 days since she last posted, smh.

[ben dover123]

This 'my case is coming soon! i'm building a case. i have some information! all will be revealed in due course!' is sketchy af.

It reminds me of when Michael Avenatti was in the news all the time with like, 'I've got hard evidence! it's coming! any day now!'. He had nothing. Do you know where is now? Under house arrest after coming out of prison for tax evasion, extortion, fraud and embezzlement. Sketchy behaviour.

No, it's almost complete. I have my case done for clidd and I'm just typing out your case. I guarantee it will be out today, give me about an hour.

[ben dover123]

Alright, I think I will show my takes on clidd and Trendall. I'm just organizing the evidence, will be done in about 5 minutes.

[ben dover123]

Warning: Long wallpost. Will provide tl;dr upon request.

Spoiler: Reads

ben dover123

Pragdoid

Chumbo

Trendall

Battle Mage

LoneMarkhor

mars

NotAJumbleOfNumbers

clidd

Spoiler: clidd meta research

clidd towngames:

Newbie 2018(Town Win)
Notes: 228 posts out of 1156 total posts, survived for town win.
Newbie 2020 (Town Win)
Notes: 282 posts out of 1758 total posts, replaced in D1 and survived for town win.
Open 791 (Town Win)
Notes: 110 posts out of 3215 total posts, replaced out D1. Heavily fatigued from last few games, was not going to do wallposts and be obvious town.

Town clidd behaviour:

Overall behaviour: Really proactive, likes wallposting when not fatigued, makes himself obvious town, very detailed analysis over all of his takes.

Tone: Likes to ask for opinions and questions, very proactive and helpful with many different takes on his reads.

Frequency: Quite active. Almost never reaches low activity.

Miscellaneous: In Open 791, clidd is noticeably fatigued from his last 2 games, so he does not make himself obvious town and starts acting slightly like his scum meta. He talks a bit about his meta, and I am currently analyzing this game to see what he has to say about his scum meta. However, clidd should not be able to use the fatigued argument here since he has literally come back from a couple month's break, no way in hell is clidd fatigued here and not actively trying to be town.
Also, he notes that he will not be doing very detailed analysis and wallposts, meaning he actually is able to control his switch from being obvious town to neutral/scummy. Interesting...

clidd scumgames

Micro 927 (Scum win)
Notes: 149 posts out of 489 total posts, survived for scum win. Partner: dsjstr
Mafia PT
Mafia Neighboorhood
Micro 939 (Scum win)
Notes: 88 posts out of 1285 total posts, replaced in D1 and replaced out D2. Partner: Flavor Leaf.
Mafia PT
Newbie 2006 (Scum win)
Notes: 37 posts out of 1468 total posts, replaced in D2.
Mafia PT intentionally private.

Scum clidd notes:

Overall behavior: Locks onto one person as his main scumread, intentionally changes his scumread only when there is a flip and interactions are used. Doesn't put nearly as much effort into his posts, and in all of these games he usually does fluffing with one liners or something similar.

Tone: Light, not too involved with solving the whole game and coordinating with his tr's. Doesn't contribute directly.

Frequency: High activity, rarely any low points.

Spoiler: clidd ISO

VOTE: Trendall

There is a tell for ''hello'' without vote.

VOTE: Trendall

There is a tell for ''hello'' without vote.

clidd is first mafia on the basis that he supposed loves to use meta, but didn't check back to see if this is just something I commonly do and instead thinks it's like a generalised 'tell'. These two lines of thinking aren't compatible with each other so mafia.

VOTE: clidd

I don't think there is a tell for "hello" that confirms that someone is a mafia.

And I feel like you're doing mental gymnastics by assuming that I "love" using meta (I never said I do, only that I used it in the past often), as well as ignoring the context of me being away from the site and the influence that would have in the way I'm playing.

Possible contradiction alert! Possible contradiction alert!
If you believe that there isn't a tell for "hello" that confirms that someone is mafia, then why vote for Trendall in the first place? I am confusion.

Slightly scummy

VOTE: Trendall

There is a tell for ''hello'' without vote.

Now that I have examined Trendall's meta, this is a really bad reason. Trendall starts basically all of his games with "Hello" or "Hello everyone" as town, I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish with this vote/what your goals were.

Hum, I feel like my sentences are not so fluent. I need to readjust to the language.

I'll take a break, waiting for others (trendal mainly) to post.

Ok. Well, I think I can understand most of your reasons, however I'm not ready to retract my vote and my suspicious yet.

I still think you're towny in your posts.

Btw, I like your style, Ben.

You fit the leader type.

Actually no, I'm open to talk.

Ah, I'll take a break.

Scums are hiding and we'll find them.

That's all, I think.

He... He-llo..

Pl.. Players.. Afk..

Repl.. Replace..

Ben... Tren... Town..

So, I don't think I want to vote Ben/Trendall today.

Light fluff

Scummy

No, people here usually wait until everyone is ready to end the day.

What can happen is if the person who is E-1 (1 vote before elimination/hammer) is mafia, he can selfhammer to deny time for town to speak.

Doesn't combine his posts and ends up double posting?

Null

Scums are hiding and we'll find them.

I wouldn't be so sure. Most of the time there is one scum in the afk slots and one in the active slots. I feel like you are trying to guide me away from where scum actually is, but this is WIFOM. What I don't like about this post is that clidd doesn't explain some of his methods to find scum, and he doesn't apply anything more than basic tells to attack someone.

Null/Slightly scummy

To clarify the topic 'SE', idk about everyone, but I don't think SEs take games in the newbie queue very seriously here, in the sense that we are not going to play the best we can. We are often looking for a more chill game, trying to test new styles/approaches, or we are trying to adapt to the site after a long period away (my case).

Of course, if players have any questions about the game, setup or terms used, I believe that no SE will refuse to help, but keep in mind that each one needs to absorb things on their own and find the playstyle that works better for them.

And like the name says, "newbie queue", is primarily for players who are joining the site and still in the process of learning the game.

SE players are just additions to clarify any doubts that may arise (and perhaps share some knowledge, but this varies from player to player).

There is also the case in which you have played a few matches and still do not feel comfortable playing in more competitive queues, in this case, the forum allows you to continue playing in the newbie queue with newbie players, but under the title of 'SE'.

Both of these posts achieve the same point, I'm not sure why you needed to double post here.

Null

No saying that Trendal is lock-town, of course, but I'm leaning town on him today.

This post was literally worthless. It was a double post that rephrased his opinion about Trendall when it was already clear what he thought of Trendall in his previous post.

The ''hello'' tell and the observation of "first mafia" were both attempts to provoke a reaction, not necessarily being a serious opinion about him.

I don't understand how you associated this with malicious behavior.

So....are you going to address that you basically contradicted yourself or what? The "hello" tell that you made is absolute garbage considering Trendall's meta, and "first mafia" is no more than labeling scum. I don't get how such weak attacks will provoke reasoning from Trendall. Although, it's not malicious behavior, I will admit.

Null

People say when I'm town I usually obvtown, but this isn't a button that I can just turn on.

So idk if I'll eventually be obvtown to your perspective, although I already have the firm feeling that you are town.

This post isn't right with the new knowledge that clidd can manually post wallposts and detailed reads whenever he likes, aka obvious town. Also, there is a tell for "I will eventually become town", which is usually a phrase used by scum to compromise their slightly scummy behavior thus far.

Scummy

Other than these specific posts, he has been asking everyone questions, but that is NAI considering that scum clidd also does this. I haven't seen any real deep analysis or contribution, which I would expect from clidd here.

Conclusion: From a meta perspective, this looks like scum clidd. Most of his posts here are similar to his scum behavior, and it looks like his general direction is going towards the scummy side.

VOTE: clidd

Spoiler: Trendall meta research

Trendall's wiki page: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Trendall

Trendall's towngames:

I chose 2 games to analyze Trendall's town behavior, Newbie 1053(His best game in his opinion), and Newbie 2039, his most recent town game.
Newbie 1053(Town win)
Notes: 16 posts out of 209 total posts, survived for town win.
Newbie 2039(Scum win)
Notes: 56 out of 619 total posts, was eliminated D2.

General behavior: Newbie 1053 was 9 years ago, so the most up to date information is in Newbie 2039.
Asks questions from others, has good points and contributes, does perspective reading.

Tone: Has a light tone and makes witty comments in Day 1, tone starts becoming serious once he gets attacked by others.

Frequency: In Newbie 2039, his frequency was all over the place. He would make a couple of posts on one day, then posts wouldn't come from him for 2 days. His posting frequency jumped when he was attacked, because he defended himself hard.

Trendall's scumgames:

Trendall only has 1 scum game, which is Newbie 1897.

Newbie 1897(Scum loss)
Mafia PT
Notes: 46 posts out of 691 total posts, replaced out D1.

General behavior: Starts with witty comments to lighten up the mood, doesn't actively contribute, ends up replacing out D1 due to the pressure. Sets his eyes on attacking his scumreads and tunnels into them.

Tone: Light, witty, gets serious when arguing against his scumreads.

Frequency: Moderately active.

Conclusion: Trendall isn't as easy to read with meta as clidd is. Overall, I think this is a towny Trendall for his start: he started serious right off the bat. Other than that, I can't really get much from Trendall. His contribution levels haven't arisen as very high, and other than that, there are no real obvious pointers that separate town Trendall and scum Trendall. I'm going to keep an eye on Trendall, I can still see him and clidd doing scum theater this early in the game.

[ben dover123]

Hello Lavarmanos! I suggest you read before you start commenting on stuff. Post #211 is complicated without context.

Hi Rockhopper, how do you do? Like I said with Lavarmanos, you probably want to read before commenting.

@above Excited to be playing with you too!

[ben dover123]

Care to answer these questions?

1. Is this your first game or do you have past games? Can you link me your best scum and town games if you do have past games? In other words, what games do you want me to metadive you?

2. Favorite role? Favorite alignment?

3. How good are you at scumhunting (self-evaluation), from 1-10?

[ben dover123]

Ok.

These are some vague answers, but ok.

Also, one more question: How active are you going to be this game?

After you have answered the latter question, you can talk to me after you have read. Reading right now is definitely the most important thing to do.

[ben dover123]

:thonk: I'm not a newbie. I have some experience at the very least.

There are some contribution here and there, as well as some towny posts, but I wanted to point out the posts that were null and scummy because of his meta. And I'm not straight up calling them null or scummy, there is reasoning in clidd's meta spoiler tag.

[ben dover123]

Just wanted to post a quick question about the term "obvious town". What exactly does it mean? Because it doesn't seem like anything can be that obvious and it seems like it would be a hard thing to turn on. Why couldn't scum be obvtown if it's something you can turn on?

Obvious town is basically being really townie, proactive, and contribute a lot. Scum can't be obvious town because it is nearly impossible for them to get the right townie behavior due to the burden of TMI. At some point, people will ask scum for reads, and either they give them reads that are wrong or give them reads that will expose their partner, because if you try to solve for town as scum and you are too accurate, you will end up with the result that your partner is scum. I consider it easy to turn on at any time, maybe some people can't do it like me, but clidd can do deep analysis and wallpost, as he said in Open 791.

[ben dover123]

I know what to look for in this gamestate and I will intervene and talk with others when I feel necessary.

You say that RVS is fundamentally flawed, and that people will use the excuse that their votes were random. How so, then, do you know what to look for? Other than votes what are you going to read people off of. I don't like this attitude, but I'm inclined to think it comes from town more than mafia. I envision a newbie mafia would try to blend in instead of openly going against the crowd. However, ben here does not sound like a newbie too much.

I'm not a newbie, and I already explained what I look for

I need to conserve my energy for bigger issues

What the...

What?

I start to lose focus on my reads and who I'm scumreading if I try and be extremely townie.

What do you think makes an obvious townie? What would you do if you were trying to be extremely townie? I am very confused as to how that would make you lose focus.

Lots of contribution, very active, very proactive about pushing town. I would do all of the latter if I was trying to be extremely townie. I could do the latter but I would get killed night 1 and I also would lose so much energy and start overlooking stuff.

Hm. That explains a bit of the weird sentence, but I'm not ready to accept this revelation yet.

Do you think mafia would intentionally lie about not being a native speaker? This seems quite silly to me.

:thonk: It's not that he would lie about being a native speaker, because he has said such before. It is that I believe he is fully capable of making good sentences

I also want to give the newbies some time to shine brighter than me, I feel like I'm naturally overshadowing all of them combined.

We get it.

Sigh...you should try it yourself. It's harder than you think.

Scum probably like the current gamestate with so many inactive players, so following the inactive crowd would definitely go in their favor.

That's not how it works. Please do not make assumptions based on speculation like this. There's nothing right now that suggests that scum are within the active or within the more inactive players. Regardless, it is generally in scum's advantage to post more.

:thonk: So you replace in and just say "You aren't allowed to make takes"? Stop it, get some help. It was literally a light take that I assume newbie scum would fall into. And what advantages does scum have to post more?

I have never considered or seen any scum SE try to eliminate another SE D1.

What are you even basing this off of?

Past experience

I'm sure anyone can be obvious town if they just tried.

No.

How active are you going to be this game?

Depends on schedule

Thoughts on players
Trendall-He seems to be making various observations that seem unlikely to come from scum.
clidd-I don't see any reason to scumread him, and he seems like he is trying to work together with the town.
ben-Seems like bait, but I also don't like the way he sheeps on popular opinion(voting chumbo after trendall and calling clidd scum after others start to do so)

:thonk:

Chumbo-Seems more interested in calling other players out than solving on his own
NAJON-No opinion.
Battle Mage-No opinion
Rockhopper-No opinion
Lone Markhor-No opinion

Comments in bold.

Yeah, this is a nice start for LavarManos, and I had a soft townread on Pragdoid before anyways.

[ben dover123]

What does thonk stand for?
I did not say you aren't allowed to make takes. I said that you shouldn't make takes based off of no evidence. There's no incentive for scum to remain inactive when they can attempt to control the game by staying active. Also, I don't believe the game to be inactive at all. A few players have already commented that they weren't expecting the game to go this fast, so it just seems like your perception is different from others which leads to you thinking that people are "inactive" and thus scummy.
I also feel like being extremely townie does not constitute losing focus on your reads. For example, if you are constantly making reads based off of other people's posts, it makes you look townie and also helps keep you focused on the game. Post 231 is way too idealistic.
@Chumbo There was no contradiction. If you went back and read, clidd explained that it was mostly a joke.

After I answer these questions, I'm out for the day. I've been trying too hard at this smh.

It's like bruh.

It sounded awfully like you just straight up rejected my take, e.g. "Please do not make assumptions based on speculation like this." So you assume that scum's best play is to powerwolf? Well, here the thing. Newbie scum are scared about going out of their way to take the game over, and majority of the time newbie scum just stay inactive. Powerwolfing is hard even for the most experienced players.
A "few" people isn't all the afk slots. There are people like mars and BM who didn't say anything like the such. Anyways, this game is inactive. Take a look at the activity count, literally the only people who are posting is me/trendall/clidd

wdym too idealistic. That is literally the definition of obvious townie. Spamming reads is not obvious town, sure it looks townie but in the end people who are proactive are much better off than people who just post reads and detailed explanations etc.

[ben dover123]

You did well Ben, your analysis of my meta was fantastic.

I believe you knew what to look for and paid attention to the standards that I demonstrated between games, turning it into an AI object to evaluate me in the current game. Perhaps, however, you should have waited a little longer before releasing it, so you could have collected player's reads in general about my slot (and their reasons) and, in a Scum!Clidd scenario, create slots associations in search for my partner.

No, this was exactly the right time. I feel like I'm already over the board with my proactiveness, and I'm likely going to be night 1 killed anyhow. I wanted to release it around the time BM released his info too, but Trendall rushed me towards it, and so BM may be able to use the excuse "Oh, you pointed out everything that I was going to point out". But never mind that, I'm keeping my eagle eye on BM for this.

I suppose you are right I could have waited to set some more interactions in stone, but whatever.

The only problem is that I'm town, but I am really impressed anyways. I feel that you have talent, you just need to adjust a few things to turn that potential into more accuracy.

Your slot took off to the 'lock-town' position.

Seriously, this is your only defense? I'm very disappointed. Also, don't pocket me. It's a little too late for that, I'm afraid.

[ben dover123]

Currently, here are some interactions I can foresee.

BM having partner equity to clidd if he doesn't post his take, because it pings a scummy "Oh, you posted all the evidence I have, so I don't need to post my evidence" and possibly BM sliding in with me on this wagon to buss clidd.

Trendall having partner equity to clidd depending on his reaction to my evidence and the fact that he wanted the evidence shown early. Possibly he was wanting to see what I got to defend clidd. Trendall/clidd also makes for a good scum theater as well.

[ben dover123]

Well, here the thing. Newbie scum are scared about going out of their way to take the game over, and majority of the time newbie scum just stay inactive. Powerwolfing is hard even for the most experienced players.

Yes, I understand, but there was nothing so far that indicated such which is why I disagreed with what you said. You can call out inactive people, but that is like taking a shot in the dark(especially since it was just over 100 posts).

people who are proactive are much better off than people who just post reads and detailed explanations etc.

What is the difference? You seem to think becoming an obvious town is something to be done manually. Most of the time, people just naturally become obvious town due to their motivations becoming extremely apparent. It seems like this has already happened

clidd, why didn't you respond to ben in depth? You have only praised him while not offering any sort of real response.

1. I said it was a

light take

, and clidd asked me what I thought of inactive players and I gave him a response of where scum lies in the early phases of the game.

2. It can come naturally, but it can happen manually. If you disagree with this, so be it, I'm done arguing over this. I have basically become obvious town, but that was purposeful, because people ended up bombarding me with questions and I decided "Ah, forget it, I'm just going to play obvious townie, which is my natural playstyle".

3. Yeah, I think this is some kind of pocketing attempt to steer me away. I'm not moving an inch, clidd. Go towncase yourself for real if you want me to even budge.

I'm going to interaction read around clidd and see if I catch anything rather sus. Will be back soon.

[ben dover123]

he wanted the evidence shown early.

Didn't say this at any point

You didn't directly say that but:

This 'my case is coming soon! i'm building a case. i have some information! all will be revealed in due course!' is sketchy af.

It reminds me of when Michael Avenatti was in the news all the time with like, 'I've got hard evidence! it's coming! any day now!'. He had nothing. Do you know where is now? Under house arrest after coming out of prison for tax evasion, extortion, fraud and embezzlement. Sketchy behaviour.

I infer that you believed the information wasn't coming at all and so you wanted it now or never.

[ben dover123]

I mean, the main point of your analysis is the meta, which was the reason for my praise.

Regarding your comments about my ISO, they fit the definition of "suppressing facts to fit theories" instead of "suppressing theories to fit facts". I think you are unconsciously conditioned to see reasons that agree with your adopted conclusion, which in this case is ''clidd is scum''.

I can approach if you want your pov about my posts in the current game, but I don't think it will change anything in your perspective.

Hm. Tbh this is probably right but I still think some of my important points still hold.

[ben dover123]

I infer that you believed the information wasn't coming at all

No, actually I just thought it'd be like, not worth waiting for. I haven't had time to read properly yet but what I read was decent actually.

Oh, well that is a :thonk:

Alright, I'm taking off Trendall from the foreseeable interaction list.

[ben dover123]

Alright, I'm taking off Trendall from the foreseeable interaction list.

What do you mean by this?

he wanted the evidence shown early.

Didn't say this at any point

You didn't directly say that but:

This 'my case is coming soon! i'm building a case. i have some information! all will be revealed in due course!' is sketchy af.

It reminds me of when Michael Avenatti was in the news all the time with like, 'I've got hard evidence! it's coming! any day now!'. He had nothing. Do you know where is now? Under house arrest after coming out of prison for tax evasion, extortion, fraud and embezzlement. Sketchy behaviour.

I infer that you believed the information wasn't coming at all and so you wanted it now or never.

I had Trendall on my "possible scum equity with clidd" list until he explained that he thought my ISO on clidd was going to be crappy info. I originally thought he wanted the info now or never and was going to defend clidd from it.

[ben dover123]

he explained that he thought my ISO on clidd was going to be crappy info

I didn't explain any such thing because it wasn't your 'ISO on clidd', it was your 'evidence' generally that I was suspicious of. I said nothing about clidd.

:thonk: This is unnecessary comment. You know what I mean. "ISO on clidd" is my evidence.

[ben dover123]

It's not unnecessary if I'm pointing out I didn't say something that I'm being accused of saying, because some other person might make a wrong read off of the back of it

Actually I'm gonna switch back to clidd though on the basis of how hard he's trying to pocket ben dover123. And also we don't need like 5 separate wagons with one person each on them right now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: clidd

Hmph. I still feel like people could infer that "ISO on clidd" is basically a more descriptive term of "evidence", but oh well.

tbh I feel like he was pocketing me from the beginning. When I was doing his ISO, I realized he had said something like "I like your style ben" which was complete fluff but was a complement directed towards me. Also, the recent praise and the reluctance to defend himself + casting off all my accusations as "confbias" is bullcrap imo. Sounds like clidd is trying to apply his pocketing here, which will not work, unfortunately for him.

[ben dover123]

Hm? What happened here?

tbf I think I'm staying on your wagon unless you towncase yourself or prove my whole argument and evidence is all confbiased.

Oh yeah, BM should be having his take today, correct?

[ben dover123]

I feel that the Mars/Rock's slot is probably scum.

I have no evidence, but I think Mars was from epicmafia and was excited to play on the forum we are in. Considering her last post in the current game (a certain nervousness) and the noticeable apathy/inactivity, it's possible that she was suffering from the cognitive burden of being scum.

Well, it's an assumption, but adding that to the current impression I have of Rock, it is liable to scumread. But I will wait for some disclosure of Rock reads, maybe it will change my perception in relation to that.

So you don't care that I'm not going to take my vote on you unless you actually do something? Like, I know meta is hard to defend but it's not impossible. Also, it's likely that your wagon will go through one way or another.

I'll reread a bit and formulate some more interactions so that when I die night 1 town still has a idea of where to go afterwards.

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: Readlist

ben dover123

Trendall

LavarManos/Pragdoid

Chumbo

Battle Mage

Rockhopper/mars

NotAJumbleOfNumbers

clidd

Spoiler: Reasoning

Trendall is just not acting like his scum self, also I'd assume he would have replaced out by now because he hates being scum.
Pragdoid had nice tone, and LavarManos also started strong, so I think they are likely town, I'm probably going to reread their slot just in case.
Chumbo is probably just newbie town with bad reasoning.
BM made some huge statements ("clidd is scum") but it's NAI until he explains his takes in detail.
Rockhopper had a rough start, also his predecessor was literally flaking, but Rockhopper gradually got better, so I'm keeping him in null.
NotAJumbleOfNumbers had some rough posts, focusing only on me and then providing a wacky readlist, but NotAJumbleOfNumbers has trouble acting like a proactive townie, but I'm reluctant to put him even in null for his actions.
clidd is scum by meta.

[quote=LavarManos]
You won't die on night 1

I still have a light townread on clidd.
[/quote]

No, I'm dead either way. But forget this, we shouldn't analyze the nk any farther.

Why do you have a light townread on clidd? What reasons?

[ben dover123]

Clidd is probably town

And why is this?

[ben dover123]

gut

Uh...

We are a little too far in for using gut reads, but ok.

What is your readlist look like?

[ben dover123]

Ok, that is one polarizing readlist.

Here are a couple of questions:

BM is your highest tr? Wha...

Lavar is scum? How so?

[ben dover123]

In no particular order.

Wait, so you have no highest townread?

Also, I'd like the answer for the second question.

[ben dover123]

So, you believe that Pragdoid was scum and had scummy behavoir? Here, let me compose an ISO of his posts.

[ben dover123]

1. Is this your first game or do you have past games? Can you link me your best scum and town games if you do have past games? In other words, what games do you want me to metadive you?

2. Favorite role? Favorite alignment?

3. How good are you at scumhunting (self-evaluation), from 1-10?

1. I finished several games on another forum years ago, but I couldn't link to them because IDK if it is still active, and it was a member's only music forum.

2. My favorite role would probably be town vigilante, as it lets you be town and try to find the scum but also take unilateral action and kill someone you think is scum. I had a game with that role but I could only shoot one time. I hit a townie

3. Pretty mediocre probably, I'd say a 5 maybe...

NAI

Yeah, it's my first game here.

Here is a question I'd like to ask everyone:
If someone was one vote away from being lynched, and there were people who wanted to continue discussion but you were convinced they were scum, would you hammer them?

This is likely NAI, but tone sounds like a newbie town that is asking questions.

I'm sorry about my inactivity, I wasn't expecting the game to move as quickly as it has. And from my pov the game started wednesday night, so I didn't think missing 1 full day would be as detrimental as it has been.

I am going to do a full re-read tomorrow morning, but my preliminary reads are that Ben and Chumbo are the most likely town, based on Ben's proactiveness and well thought out reasoning, as well as his change of stance on Chumbo. My view on Chumbo is similar to his, I think he was genuine in his read of Ben. Trendall I could go either way on. clidd gives a a bit of a scumread, but this is entirely based on gut alone. Everyone else hasn't posted enough to get any kind of read on.

I will do my best to get back to anyone's questions tonight if they ask any, but with the weekend here I should be more active.

Consensus reads, but still NAI

Honestly your earlier interactions with Trendall only strengthens my slight scumread on you. In this series of interactions you claim that there is a tell for "hello" without a vote, he responds with what looked like an omgus vote to me, and then you contradict yourself with your response, claiming that you don't think there is a tell for "hello". So which is it? I need to re-read the thread completely when I have a clearer head, but this seems disingenuous to me. Also, your take on Trendall saying "first mafia" seemed like you were grasping at straws.

Tone says newbie town trying to piece things together after rereading. Pragdoid was the first person to notice the contradiction.

Hey everyone, I'm sorry but I have requested to be replaced. I thought I'd have more time but I don't, so I'd rather let someone who can do the game justice take my place. Sorry everyone.

Makes a apology, likely NAI but sounds relatively town.

So, what do you see here that is scummy behavior? All I see is by tone Pragdoid sounds like a newbie town.

[ben dover123]

Hm. It seems you scumread Pragdoid for consensus reads and attacking clidd by his contradiction. I still think this comes from newbie town learning the game rather than scummy behavior.

[ben dover123]

How come?

I have experience with this kind of stuff. Newbies use consensus reads because they like to only stick with the flow, and the contradiction attack seems like a genuine attempt to sort out his reads and attack his scumread.

[ben dover123]

Cause it loaded at the bottom of page 12 and I didn't realise there was an extra page.

:thonk:

Yeah, people are townreading clidd out of

gut

. I'm outraged by this.

[ben dover123]

Clidd is probably town

And why is this?

gut

[ben dover123]

Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

At this point clidd has made enough content to be better than a "gut" read though. Actually, all of Rock's reads are really bad ngl.

[ben dover123]

Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

At this point clidd has made enough content to be better than a "gut" read though. Actually, all of Rock's reads are really bad ngl.

And therefore scummy?

No, I'm not sure what to make of you yet. Rereading.

[ben dover123]

Interesting. You are now a scum lean.

I...

wtf is this

How come?

[ben dover123]

istg Rockhopper, you can't just hand out a scumlean and then leave with no explanation. I want to know how that post makes me scummy.

[ben dover123]

Where the heck did everyone go?

Also, did some rereading over Rock and commented below:

Spoiler: Rockhopper's bad reads

That's most probably a scum stance IMO. It's just a reflection of the consensus with lazy reasoning.

This is Rockhopper overlooking a case of newbie town.

It's also pretty scummy to automatically equate contradictions to scumminess. The same argument holds true for a major portion of RVS votes, so if the SR did stem from here, it reinforces my read.

I disagree with you on this. I think that contradictions, in general, are scum behavior. Scum has to lie and if they don't keep track of their lies, they contradict themselves. clidd did explain himself later, which you can take it or leave it, but I don't think it's scummy to call out a contradiction.

So RVS votes with poor reasoning are inherently scummy?
That's a step town wouldn't miss when using the tell.

Wait a fricking minute here. So first you say that Pragdoid automatically equated contradictions to scumminess, then Chumbo makes a really good point, and now you say that Pragdoid's SR on clidd stems from an RVS vote with poor reasoning? Just what.
Also, clidd's contradiction was weird. He contradicted himself on

the same page

. I can't believe he already forgot that he used "hello" as a tell to SR Trendall.

Rockhopper's entrance, on the other hand, rang some bells.

Lol actually yeah I just looked at that and it does look really rough

Huh? How did you judge?

It takes like half a brain to realize how bad this attack on Lavar is. smh

So RVS votes with poor reasoning are inherently scummy?

No, I said contradictions are scummy. Never said anything about RVS reasoning.

RVS votes with poor reasoning.

> X is scum for being the second poster (RVS) vote: X
> I don't actually think X is 100% scum for being the second poster

Wait, weren't we talking about contradictions? When did this become a talk about RVS votes? Anyways, I feel like there is still a contradiction in that sequence of events. I'd like to bring up clidd's post again:

VOTE: Trendall

There is a tell for ''hello'' without vote.

clidd is first mafia on the basis that he supposed loves to use meta, but didn't check back to see if this is just something I commonly do and instead thinks it's like a generalised 'tell'. These two lines of thinking aren't compatible with each other so mafia.

VOTE: clidd

I don't think there is a tell for "hello" that confirms that someone is a mafia.

And I feel like you're doing mental gymnastics by assuming that I "love" using meta (I never said I do, only that I used it in the past often), as well as ignoring the context of me being away from the site and the influence that would have in the way I'm playing.

"I don't think there is a tell for "hello" that confirms that someone is a mafia" sounds like "saying hello does not confirm someone to be mafia". Then why use your RVS vote on him instead of me? I had some awkward behavior in Page 1...

So, it sounds like some contradiction is in play here. "confirms" doesn't mean "100%", you know.

Clidd is probably town

gut

:thonk:

Lavar is scum? How so?

Mainly his predecessor. I don't think Lavar's posts come from town more often than not.

Wha...

Lavar's posts ping towny to me, I want some evidence to why Lavar's posts come from mafia.

Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

At this point clidd has made enough content to be better than a "gut" read though. Actually, all of Rock's reads are really bad ngl.

And therefore scummy?

:thonk: Bad reads =/= scummy. This should be pretty simple to understand.

Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

At this point clidd has made enough content to be better than a "gut" read though. Actually, all of Rock's reads are really bad ngl.

And therefore scummy?

No, I'm not sure what to make of you yet. Rereading.

Interesting. You are now a scum lean.

:thonk: :thonk: :thonk:

[ben dover123]

I'm inclined to say Rock has a good chance of having partner equity with clidd, since he is defending clidd from a contradiction attack and TR's clidd out of gut, but I'm not ready to accept this whole take yet since Rock hasn't shown anything that scumpings me directly. I also think that clidd has much more evidence against him then Rock, if clidd flips red we definitely want to watch Rock D2.

[ben dover123]

I don't have much to say until BM reveals his thoughts on the game.

So, I assume you are likely never going to defend yourself against my meta attack?

I don't like this...but at least wagons are gaining traction. If your wagon was going by with no resistance I would be definitely suspicious of gamestate right now...

[ben dover123]

Woah, woah, woah, watch where you swing that TMI hammer around my dude.

Town - {BM, bend, clidd, Trendall, NAJON}
Scum- {Lavar}

This are just bad reads. How many times do I have to say that bad reads =/= you are scum. Also why the actual f*** would you purposely make bad reads. That makes absolutely no sense from a towny perspective.

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: "This" is supposed to be "These"

Am I wrong to think that one is a subset of the other? The 'contradiction' is NAI, the same way it's NAI to give a completely random reason (which isn't seriously thought to be the case) to substantiate an RVS vote.

Except the discussion was about my entrance, before my vote on Lavar.

We still are. I'm pointing out how a certain subset is NAI.

1. Yes, I will agree that contradiction from newbies over anything that isn't reads is usually NAI, but this is a

SE

who is talking about

reads

. People who have played this long should not have trouble voicing their opinions out and trip over their own words, whether as scum is much more careful and end up contradicting themselves every now and then.

2. :omegalul: Let me state this loud and clear, your entrance was the beginning posts and your vote on Lavar, which was seen as rough.

3. This certain scenario isn't completely NAI though.

[ben dover123]

I'm pissed. Just. plain. pissed. Rock is really triggering me right now from his responses. I'm taking a break after this.

Oh, so now you vote me because you want to follow up on your "TMI" claim. Isn't TMI better than any reason you had against Lavar? Why did you only put me at a scumlean and not straight up vote me from the start? Out of proportion? Don't give me this bullcrap.

tbf Everyone was surprised where the heck that vote from Lavar came from. It was completely against the flow.

Why not? And how does that matter as a response to my read?

Don't gimme this burden of proof bullcrap. Purposely making bad reads is such a sub-optimal play for town I don't understand why you would do it. And this isn't a response to your read.

[ben dover123]

Hm. Maybe I did but...

I'm almost convinced Rock is the other scum alongside clidd now, Rock SR'ed me for TMI, an absurdly strong tell, a tell way stronger than anything Rock had against Lavar, and yet all he says is:

Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

At this point clidd has made enough content to be better than a "gut" read though. Actually, all of Rock's reads are really bad ngl.

And therefore scummy?

No, I'm not sure what to make of you yet. Rereading.

Interesting. You are now a scum lean.

No vote, no nothing. His scumlean came nearly

7 hours

before he explained the reasoning, which I assume either he constructed a case against me in those 7 hours because he needed to push me, or his reasoning for the scumlean was already set as TMI. If he constructed a case on the go, that just screams scum trying to progress the push of my miselimination and if he already had his scumlean set as "I had TMI", then him not voting there is indecisive scum who doesn't want to push me here.

He literally admitted to purposely creating a f***** up readlist, which is beyond sub-optimal play for town.

He says "bad reads =/= scummy" in a vacuum? He should know this is blatantly false (from plain experience), as bad reads are not a direct scumtell.

He is using burden of proof to deflect the fact that he is making bad reads.

(burden of proof is a logical fallacy, when used to deflect the person that is using this fallacy is trying to divert attention from one aspect of their argument)

Hm. Is it me or is it just so coincidental that when I start using emotions to pressure him, he leaves the chat? I must say....

VOTE: Rockhopper

clidd's meta case is a good case but this is just actually terrible coming from Rock.

[ben dover123]

Your AtE is definitely a contributing factor. You seem way to concerned with your image.

Listen, I'm a really chill guy on any given day, but what you have said here is really triggering me very hard.

I did agree with you about the 'bad reads != scummy' thing. It's just not the case here.

Not the case here? wdym by that. Are you really going to say you are scummy because you have bad reads? smh. I'm done.

[ben dover123]

@above you should appear to be what?
"gut" is as lazy as what can get?

[ben dover123]

You shouldn't be using gut to determine your reason to vote now though, we are 14 pages in with a decent amount of info.

My vote is sticking where it is right now. Your actions just recently hard ping scum to me.

[ben dover123]

Right now, the only thing that is unsettling me about Rock is that clidd, my original scumread, was subtly pushing reasons why Rock was scummy, which I may have to analyze to see if this may be clidd trying to misdirect me towards a Rock miselim. Although these recent posts are just so bad coming from a town motivation.

[ben dover123]

@above you should appear to be what?
"gut" is as lazy as what can get?

Scummy.
Reason to vote.

I'm fairly certain I read Newbie 2037 and Mini Normal 2177 and neither of those games you had scummy behavior, but I'm going to reread again to make sure. Meta case on Rock coming tomorrow.

Ok, ok, ok, ok, take some deep breath. Count to 10.

I'm taking a step back. What does everyone else think about Rock's recent posts? I want some opinions so I know I am either confbiased or I am looking at Rock's posts in the right way.

I'm gonna go to sleep, I'm exhausted after spilling some of my emotions. Goodnight all, and I hope to see some answers the the latter question.

[ben dover123]

Ah, I had a nice nap and thought over it.

So, Chumbo also notices where I am coming from against Rock here. Well, I feel reassured now.

Hm. I'm probably going to wait for BM before posting anything else. I already spilled my thoughts on Rock, still going to do a meta analysis today but I need to read over his games again.

I know I said I wasn't going to move my vote from clidd but Rock yesterday was having some wacky thought lines that I don't think come from town. Let's see what BM has got for clidd here

[ben dover123]

So, Chumbo also notices where I am coming from against Rock here. Well, I feel reassured now.

I mean Chumbo could easily be the mafia.

:thonk:

tbh I got newbie town vibes from Chumbo, I think he is likely town just below you.

What do you think of Rock's posts?

[ben dover123]

cliddd n' LoneMarkhor top mafia suspects.

Wait I saw this post. You don't think Rock's posts are likely scum? Also, why LoneMarkhor?

[ben dover123]

You don't think Rock's posts are likely scum?

No why would I?

Uhhhhhhhhhh...

Did you not see this?

Hm. Maybe I did but...

I'm almost convinced Rock is the other scum alongside clidd now, Rock SR'ed me for TMI, an absurdly strong tell, a tell way stronger than anything Rock had against Lavar, and yet all he says is:

Interesting. You are now a scum lean.

No vote, no nothing. His scumlean came nearly

7 hours

before he explained the reasoning, which I assume either he constructed a case against me in those 7 hours because he needed to push me, or his reasoning for the scumlean was already set as TMI. If he constructed a case on the go, that just screams scum trying to progress the push of my miselimination and if he already had his scumlean set as "I had TMI", then him not voting there is indecisive scum who doesn't want to push me here.

He literally admitted to purposely creating a f***** up readlist, which is beyond sub-optimal play for town.

He says "bad reads =/= scummy" in a vacuum? He should know this is blatantly false (from plain experience), as bad reads are not a direct scumtell.

He is using burden of proof to deflect the fact that he is making bad reads.

(burden of proof is a logical fallacy, when used to deflect the person that is using this fallacy is trying to divert attention from one aspect of their argument)

Hm. Is it me or is it just so coincidental that when I start using emotions to pressure him, he leaves the chat? I must say....

VOTE: Rockhopper

clidd's meta case is a good case but this is just actually terrible coming from Rock.

[ben dover123]

Yeah I saw that post, but in terms of Rockhopper I haven't really seen much reason to think that he's mafia at the moment.

Hmph. I'm reluctant to unvote Rock for those posts, I just hate how it looks for Rock. tbh I may go back to clidd depending on what BM's case is, but I want Rock to do something about those posts, like at least give a bare minimum explanation.

Lel. Heavy town pings from LoneMarkhor for saying that.

Oh yeah I agree with this btw

Wait, so if clidd is your only SR, then who do you think is his partner?

[ben dover123]

At what point did I say that 'clidd is my only scumread'? I don't have 'scumreads', I said already that the mafia is between clidd, Chumbo and Battle Mage cause everyone else seems town.

Wait, when did BM and Chumbo enter the mix? I thought you said LoneMarkhor and clidd were your highest SR's, so I wondered who you thought clidd's partner would be if LoneMarkhor was giving you town pings now.

[ben dover123]

In post #277, then LoneMarkhor looked more suspicious, then he looked more towny again so it went back to those three.

I feel like Chumbo is just giving me plain newbie town vibes, especially when he was attacking me a couple pages back for the wrong reasons, as it seemed the attack and reactions were genuine.

BM is another case completely. So inactive and so little to judge him on....

I could metadive him, but I'm not because there is literally nothing to judge him by his meta.

The thing that could determine his alignment is his take on clidd, which we are all waiting today.

Well, here comes the waiting.

[ben dover123]

Good grief, everyone is getting replaced.

4 days left until deadline, I hope we can sort this situation out. We need BM to talk soon, otherwise D2 will leave us with so many unknowns.

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of interaction lies within {clidd, Rockhopper}. If I can figure this puzzle, I think we will be in the clear going into D2.

[ben dover123]

Hi there!
Lemme just grab my RQS for you to answer...

[ben dover123]

pagetop
Answer this RQS please before reading:

1. Is this your first game or do you have past games? Can you link me your best scum and town games if you do have past games? In other words, what games do you want me to metadive you?

2. Favorite role? Favorite alignment?

3. How good are you at scumhunting (self-evaluation), from 1-10?

4. How active will you be in this game?

[ben dover123]

Rockhopper looks like scum who is trying to be seen as too scummy.
VOTE: Rockhopper

Woah woah woah lavar take it done a full notch.

Rock is E-1 now.

[ben dover123]

pagetop
Answer this RQS please before reading:

1. Is this your first game or do you have past games? Can you link me your best scum and town games if you do have past games? In other words, what games do you want me to metadive you?

2. Favorite role? Favorite alignment?

3. How good are you at scumhunting (self-evaluation), from 1-10?

4. How active will you be in this game?

what a time to return! we're back at the RQS again?

I think the only one I didnt answer yet is 4. Hopefully reasonably active for the next 2 weeks, although I'm in too many games lol

No, there was 3 replacements when you were gone. RQS is good for learning new info from new players, especially when we need it quite quickly now.

So, I assume you are rereading, right? I want to hear your clidd take, but don't be rushed to post it.

[ben dover123]

I don't like how the Rock wagon was constructed so fast, more specifically I'm not sure why Lavar would E-1 Rock. That's a really scummy vote, not to mention that he barely had any evidence to go alongside said vote. I'm sure he could see Rock was at E-2 in the last votecount, and so Lavar's vote doesn't quite hit me in the right way...

[ben dover123]

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

[ben dover123]

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

E-1 means one vote away from death right? Sorry I spent some time reading the wiki but I think it will take me some time to adjust to and internalize the jargon on this site. Shouldn't you agree that Lavar has reason to put Rockhopper to E-1, since you're voting there yourself? You could always unvote if you're that concerned. Your concern rings as false, more an attempt to attack someone on the wagon to make them look bad if Rockhopper is town than an attempt to show genuine concern.

You still lack context. I have a very, very solid reason to keep my vote, and I want Rockhopper to respond soon. I want Lavar to take his vote back right now, it is a absolutely terrible vote compared to everyone else's.

I can reference the post if you want, Rock is giving me hard core scum pings.

[ben dover123]

Hm. Maybe I did but...

I'm almost convinced Rock is the other scum alongside clidd now, Rock SR'ed me for TMI, an absurdly strong tell, a tell way stronger than anything Rock had against Lavar, and yet all he says is:

Interesting. You are now a scum lean.

No vote, no nothing. His scumlean came nearly

7 hours

before he explained the reasoning, which I assume either he constructed a case against me in those 7 hours because he needed to push me, or his reasoning for the scumlean was already set as TMI. If he constructed a case on the go, that just screams scum trying to progress the push of my miselimination and if he already had his scumlean set as "I had TMI", then him not voting there is indecisive scum who doesn't want to push me here.

He literally admitted to purposely creating a f***** up readlist, which is beyond sub-optimal play for town.

He says "bad reads =/= scummy" in a vacuum? He should know this is blatantly false (from plain experience), as bad reads are not a direct scumtell.

He is using burden of proof to deflect the fact that he is making bad reads.

(burden of proof is a logical fallacy, when used to deflect the person that is using this fallacy is trying to divert attention from one aspect of their argument)

Hm. Is it me or is it just so coincidental that when I start using emotions to pressure him, he leaves the chat? I must say....

VOTE: Rockhopper

clidd's meta case is a good case but this is just actually terrible coming from Rock.

This is my case against him. He made some actions that have hard pinged me, even worse than clidd. The worst part about it is that Rock didn't vote me even though his reasoning behind giving me a scumlean was TMI, which

compared to his reasons to vote Lavar, it is a horrific that he didn't vote me there and ended up just giving me a scumlean. Not to mention the burden of proof fallacy and him admitting to purposely creating a really bad

readlist. The problem is that he is going along with this attack, not even bothering to defend it like clidd. I'm getting bad pings from this kind of behavior.

[ben dover123]

I haven't read all of it, but I saw you self-hammered. Unfortunate.

Well, this game is a fresh page for you, I'd say. I can't wait to finally interact and work with you. Then, at long last, everyone will be active and we can start solving for real.

[ben dover123]

I have a very, very solid reason to keep my vote.

No you don't.

it is a absolutely terrible vote compared to everyone else's.

No it isn't it's literally the same vote that you are making.

I sure do. I need Rock to at least explain himself because his actions are just "What?!?!?!?!" looking from a town motivation.

No, it is not the same vote. Let me bring up the evidence:

My reasoning:

Hm. Maybe I did but...

I'm almost convinced Rock is the other scum alongside clidd now, Rock SR'ed me for TMI, an absurdly strong tell, a tell way stronger than anything Rock had against Lavar, and yet all he says is:

Interesting. You are now a scum lean.

No vote, no nothing. His scumlean came nearly

7 hours

before he explained the reasoning, which I assume either he constructed a case against me in those 7 hours because he needed to push me, or his reasoning for the scumlean was already set as TMI. If he constructed a case on the go, that just screams scum trying to progress the push of my miselimination and if he already had his scumlean set as "I had TMI", then him not voting there is indecisive scum who doesn't want to push me here.

He literally admitted to purposely creating a f***** up readlist, which is beyond sub-optimal play for town.

He says "bad reads =/= scummy" in a vacuum? He should know this is blatantly false (from plain experience), as bad reads are not a direct scumtell.

He is using burden of proof to deflect the fact that he is making bad reads.

(burden of proof is a logical fallacy, when used to deflect the person that is using this fallacy is trying to divert attention from one aspect of their argument)

Hm. Is it me or is it just so coincidental that when I start using emotions to pressure him, he leaves the chat? I must say....

VOTE: Rockhopper

clidd's meta case is a good case but this is just actually terrible coming from Rock.

This is Lavar's vote:

Rockhopper looks like scum who is trying to be seen as too scummy.
VOTE: Rockhopper

If you cannot see the difference here, you are officially blind. Lavar's vote has really bad reasons and even worse, it puts Rock at E-1. I definitely don't like this look coming from Lavar.

I don't like how Trendall cannot see the difference between these two votes when there is obviously one. Plus the fact that multiple wagons are cropping up. Right now, right below Rock's wagon, clidd's wagon is back in the game and mine is too. We definitely need to have a good consensus wagon soon, deadline is approaching.

[ben dover123]

If you think that the guy is mafia then there's no reason you should be so bothered by the other guy voting for him as well. If you are then it begs the question of why you are voting for him.

That is the problem at hand. I want Rock to explain himself, but I don't want scum getting away with an easy miselim. Rock is currently at E-1 with intent to hammer, and we have to get away from this.

Since Lavar literally just left and I have to go now, UNVOTE: Rockhopper for extra precaution.

I'm bothered because as much as I think Rock's actions ping scum I don't think it is a good idea to put him at E-1, with intent to hammer where mafia can get away with an easy miselim. We cannot let that happen, especially with a couple of days left before deadline and BM hasn't even fully explained his take on clidd yet.

[ben dover123]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rock is mafia trolling us.

Alright, stop. I'm still trying to figure out where this "Rockhopper is mafia" comes from. I'm scared to think that it may be clidd trying to push a miselim

It's a weird interaction, I'm going to admit. Rock is defending clidd and TR'ing him (out of gut), but clidd thinks Rock is scum. This could be clidd trying to get a buss off as Rock's behavior towards clidd looks like subtle defending, but I'm not 100% sure about it.

Pedit: What bias. Like actually I want a solid explanation. I hate that you are just chucking my meta research out of the window with "bias". It just doesn't work like that, and I'd expect better from you.

[ben dover123]

Ben, every action and post I'm doing you and BM see Scum!me planning something/acting in a malicious way.

If that's not bias, idk what it is.

Soooooooo...my whole ISO is all bias? Let's pull it up then.

[ben dover123]

clidd, you're joking. I didn't spend a whole day completing your research for nothing. Take a look at your ISO that I completed, and I will show you how barely any of this is biased.

Comments in bold:

Spoiler: clidd ISO

VOTE: Trendall

There is a tell for ''hello'' without vote.

VOTE: Trendall

There is a tell for ''hello'' without vote.

clidd is first mafia on the basis that he supposed loves to use meta, but didn't check back to see if this is just something I commonly do and instead thinks it's like a generalised 'tell'. These two lines of thinking aren't compatible with each other so mafia.

VOTE: clidd

I don't think there is a tell for "hello" that confirms that someone is a mafia.

And I feel like you're doing mental gymnastics by assuming that I "love" using meta (I never said I do, only that I used it in the past often), as well as ignoring the context of me being away from the site and the influence that would have in the way I'm playing.

Possible contradiction alert! Possible contradiction alert!
If you believe that there isn't a tell for "hello" that confirms that someone is mafia, then why vote for Trendall in the first place? I am confusion.

Slightly scummy

This isn't bias of malicious mindset, you contradicted yourself here and it just seems odd.

VOTE: Trendall

There is a tell for ''hello'' without vote.

Now that I have examined Trendall's meta, this is a really bad reason. Trendall starts basically all of his games with "Hello" or "Hello everyone" as town, I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish with this vote/what your goals were.
[/b]This also isn't bias of malicious mindset, this is just you making a bad vote for a bad reason[/b]

Hum, I feel like my sentences are not so fluent. I need to readjust to the language.

I'll take a break, waiting for others (trendal mainly) to post.

Ok. Well, I think I can understand most of your reasons, however I'm not ready to retract my vote and my suspicious yet.

I still think you're towny in your posts.

Btw, I like your style, Ben.

You fit the leader type.

Actually no, I'm open to talk.

Ah, I'll take a break.

Scums are hiding and we'll find them.

That's all, I think.

He... He-llo..

Pl.. Players.. Afk..

Repl.. Replace..

Ben... Tren... Town..

So, I don't think I want to vote Ben/Trendall today.

Light fluff

Scummy

This is your meta coming into play. Nothing biased here.

No, people here usually wait until everyone is ready to end the day.

What can happen is if the person who is E-1 (1 vote before elimination/hammer) is mafia, he can selfhammer to deny time for town to speak.

Doesn't combine his posts and ends up double posting?

Null

Scums are hiding and we'll find them.

I wouldn't be so sure. Most of the time there is one scum in the afk slots and one in the active slots. I feel like you are trying to guide me away from where scum actually is, but this is WIFOM. What I don't like about this post is that clidd doesn't explain some of his methods to find scum, and he doesn't apply anything more than basic tells to attack someone.

Null/Slightly scummy

Again, this ties into clidd meta. clidd loves using complex scumtells to make his reads, and yet he doesn't really give me any complex tools to work with and also he doesn't use complex scumtells to make his reads.

To clarify the topic 'SE', idk about everyone, but I don't think SEs take games in the newbie queue very seriously here, in the sense that we are not going to play the best we can. We are often looking for a more chill game, trying to test new styles/approaches, or we are trying to adapt to the site after a long period away (my case).

Of course, if players have any questions about the game, setup or terms used, I believe that no SE will refuse to help, but keep in mind that each one needs to absorb things on their own and find the playstyle that works better for them.

And like the name says, "newbie queue", is primarily for players who are joining the site and still in the process of learning the game.

SE players are just additions to clarify any doubts that may arise (and perhaps share some knowledge, but this varies from player to player).

There is also the case in which you have played a few matches and still do not feel comfortable playing in more competitive queues, in this case, the forum allows you to continue playing in the newbie queue with newbie players, but under the title of 'SE'.

Both of these posts achieve the same point, I'm not sure why you needed to double post here.

Null

No bias here. Just a issue of clogging the thread with unnecessary posts. The town clidd I know likes to keep everything concise and accurate.

No saying that Trendal is lock-town, of course, but I'm leaning town on him today.

This post was literally worthless. It was a double post that rephrased his opinion about Trendall when it was already clear what he thought of Trendall in his previous post.

No bias here. Just a issue of clogging the thread with unnecessary posts. The town clidd I know likes to keep everything concise and accurate.

The ''hello'' tell and the observation of "first mafia" were both attempts to provoke a reaction, not necessarily being a serious opinion about him.

I don't understand how you associated this with malicious behavior.

So....are you going to address that you basically contradicted yourself or what? The "hello" tell that you made is absolute garbage considering Trendall's meta, and "first mafia" is no more than labeling scum. I don't get how such weak attacks will provoke reasoning from Trendall. Although, it's not malicious behavior, I will admit.

Null

No bias here. Just me pointing out your weak attacks.

People say when I'm town I usually obvtown, but this isn't a button that I can just turn on.

So idk if I'll eventually be obvtown to your perspective, although I already have the firm feeling that you are town.

This post isn't right with the new knowledge that clidd can manually post wallposts and detailed reads whenever he likes, aka obvious town. Also, there is a tell for "I will eventually become town", which is usually a phrase used by scum to compromise their slightly scummy behavior thus far.

Scummy

No bias that I can spot here. I'm just pointing out that clidd has the ability to try this game, and the scumtell "I will eventually become town" is not necessarily malicious behavior, but rather an awkward sentence that is rarely used by town and majority of the time used by scum.
Other than these specific posts, he has been asking everyone questions, but that is NAI considering that scum clidd also does this. I haven't seen any real deep analysis or contribution, which I would expect from clidd here.

No bias here/

Conclusion: From a meta perspective, this looks like scum clidd. Most of his posts here are similar to his scum behavior, and it looks like his general direction is going towards the scummy side.

No bias I can spot here.

VOTE: clidd

So, uhhhh, you wanna point out where said bias is in this ISO? I made my comments if you want to read what I think about my own observations and if they are biased or not for only considering the case where you have malicious intent. tl;dr I don't see any bias, maybe I'm biased, but I'm pretty sure anyone else can agree that this ISO is not biased over malicious intent only coming from clidd.

[ben dover123]

But, maybe there is still time to fix that.

It's my specialty to heal wounds, anyways.

Don't gimme this "Oh, we can fix all of this over time/Oh, I will become more towny over time" bullcrap. I don't like how you believe that you will become/do ____ over time. It's just not gonna happen. For example, you said "maybe I'll become obvtown soon in your perspective" Well, it hasn't happened. And it probably never will.

Pedit: Trendall, back me up here. I'm sure my ISO has fair points that are not biased, please and thank you.

[ben dover123]

It's more like:

Meta-> Correct
ISO-> Wrong/biased

Your comments on my posts started from the point "I know that clidd is scum" to explain the purpose of each post according to the scum!clidd scenario.

Wha...I'm making points that point towards a scum clidd scenario, not the other way around. God, I'm going to get outshouted here if no one helps and tells me that my ISO isn't biased. Someone please confirm that this isn't all bias.

Pedit: ...

Double Pedit: ...You know what, forget it. I'm done. If no one is going to confirm that not all the points are biased, then I'm gone. Goodnight.

[ben dover123]

Sigh...god I'm going to have to do another reread to organize my reads then if everyone is casting my clidd attack as biased.

Can someone at least provide an example of what is biased in my ISO? I'd like to know so I can get better at making meta attacks another game.

[ben dover123]

Wha..

That's most probably a scum stance IMO. It's just a reflection of the consensus with lazy reasoning.

I call out Pragdoiid for having a generic read followed by lazy reasoning

gut

And my next move is the opposite with lazy reasoning.

Wait what is this for?

[ben dover123]

clidd keeps making arguments he should know better than

True. The role fishing argument is pretty darn stupid (considering that LoneMarkhor is a first time newbie), and I have seen other examples too.

[ben dover123]

Eh, no. I don't buy, sorry.

You don't buy what? And I don't like these unnecessary "Hums". They are just clogging the thread even more smh.

[ben dover123]

What does 1, 2, 3, and 4 answer? I'm not sure if I'm lining each attack up with the right defense.

1. Even so, this doesn't answer much. Why didn't you just vote me when you announced I was a scumlean, when the reasoning you had was TMI?

2. Lets settle this. Originally when you posted your readlist, I thought that it was just a bad readlist and so bad reads =/= scummy and it wasn't AI to me. I thought likely you were still reading through the whole game. But then you announced later that your intentions with that readlist was to purposely make it bad, therefore I have no clue why you would do this from a towny motivation. So bad reads =/= scummy, but purposely making bad reads? That's just straight up wacky.

3. Wait, what does this answer?

4. Burden of proof is not AI in general, but when used to deflect it is scummy. Imagine this:

Person A: I believe Person B is scum for these reasons: <insert reasons here>

Person C: But why is Person B not town?

That is like a very simple form of burden of proof. Obviously, in this scenario it's way easier to see that Person C is likely scum with Person B, and this basically is what you were doing on a much more basic level and with different reasoning. Asking "Why not?" is you knowing that purposely making a bad readlist is the most bullcrap thing you could do, and you just want to disprove that fact by using burden of proof.

[ben dover123]

Bend is just town with that reaction.

smh.

VOTE: Chumbo

Wait why is this?

[ben dover123]

Ben, I have an important question.

Ah, nvm. I'll let you think more.

No, no I'm open rn.

Go ahead. I'm still waiting for Rock to answer anyways.

[ben dover123]

What does 1, 2, 3, and 4 answer? I'm not sure if I'm lining each attack up with the right defense.

1. Even so, this doesn't answer much. Why didn't you just vote me when you announced I was a scumlean, when the reasoning you had was TMI?

2. Lets settle this. Originally when you posted your readlist, I thought that it was just a bad readlist and so bad reads =/= scummy and it wasn't AI to me. I thought likely you were still reading through the whole game. But then you announced later that your intentions with that readlist was to purposely make it bad, therefore I have no clue why you would do this from a towny motivation. So bad reads =/= scummy, but purposely making bad reads? That's just straight up wacky.

3. Wait, what does this answer?

4. Burden of proof is not AI in general, but when used to deflect it is scummy. Imagine this:

Person A: I believe Person B is scum for these reasons: <insert reasons here>

Person C: But why is Person B not town?

That is like a very simple form of burden of proof. Obviously, in this scenario it's way easier to see that Person C is likely scum with Person B, and this basically is what you were doing on a much more basic level and with different reasoning. Asking "Why not?" is you knowing that purposely making a bad readlist is the most bullcrap thing you could do, and you just want to disprove that fact by using burden of proof.

1) Because I still thought Pragdoid was worse. I thought TMI was probably the reason for why you wouldn't have connected the dots. Don't you think it's scummy if someone misses a simple deduction?
2) That's in line with my thoughts on Pragdoid's contradiction case. You shouldn't have automatically equated 'bad reads' with 'not AI'.
3) Fine, screw bop. I don't think it's scummy to post a wrong read on purpose.
4) This was regarding my absence when you got emotional.

1. What. How is Pragdoid worse then what you thought I was then. TMI is stronger and then anything you had against Pragdoid for a mile.

2. Whoops. Also, I didn't automatically equate bad reads with not AI. I said you making bad reads then wasn't AI for me because you probably were still collecting thoughts from the whole game. Difference, much?

3. :thonk: Uh...I'd like you to say that statement again to yourself.

4. Oh. That wasn't really AI, but scum don't like to get in a emotional battle since they know their emotions probably won't match with the townie's true emotions.

[ben dover123]

@Ben Look, it isn't even a question.

I just need you to relax a bit and think about what I'll say, ok?

pedit: ah, you again.

Got it.

I mean, I'm not even 75 percent sure I can trust what you say, word by word but I'll still listen with all ears.

Ah, I'm thinking too hard about this crap.

Pedit: WTF IS THIS

Sorry, my bad. Manners went out of the window. But this is not the greatest time to claim...

[ben dover123]

Alright, can we pause the argument real quick.

This is like 75% coming from town clidd, since there are so many CC's that could go wrong with doctor. But, if you are a PR that is not cop or tracker, you should probably claim now, because that completely nullifies clidd's claim. Otherwise, everyone, including vt's and town cop or tracker stay silent.

This limits the possible scum, so I'm going to muse over this a bit and be back later.

[ben dover123]

Where is clidd on there?

[ben dover123]

He isn't an elim choice until and unless there's a CC so I'm just treating him as conftown for now.

Cool, that was what I was thinking.

The stakes are high for scum clidd if this is a gambit, the only scenario where there is a town cop/tracker but no town doctor is the Cop 9 setup, so if clidd doesn't get CC'ed here he is basically 90% cleared. It's such a risky gambit for scum clidd as well, there are so many counterclaims to doctor here, and there is a better role to gambit off of.

This would also explain why he is not following his regular vt playstyle, which I was wondering why he wasn't following his successful playstyle.

So, I'm just going to recollect my reads, will post them soon. This narrows down scumteam quite a lot though, I want to see who can be scum here.

[ben dover123]

Mafia know what their roles are, so if he knows that there are just two mafia goons then he has a one in three chance of getting away with it and a two in three chance of outing some other power role.

Wait, what?

Spoiler: Reads

ben dover123

clidd

Trendall

Chumbo

LavarManos

Battle Mage

Lunar Martian

Rockhopper

My reads are a mess right now after this claim. Hopefully we can clean this mess up soon.

[ben dover123]

1) It could have just been you not paying attention.
2) Doesn't matter. My read on Pragdoid was all that was necessary.
3) ..I don't think it is

This argument is doing no good to anyone, so this is the last time I will argue over these points.

1. Let me see, your reasons for voting Pragdoid/LavarManos are:

- Consensus reads
- Attacking his SR for contradiction
- Posts do not come from town (?)

Uh...TMI as a scumtell crushes all of these reasons. I have been paying attention to your SR on Pragdoid/Lavar and I disagree with these reasons.

2. Wait, what? I'm not quite understanding this, but what I can say is your attack on Pragdoid is much, much weaker than TMI in any scenario.

3. I don't think I can change your mind about this, but I'll try one more time:

Purposely making bad reads is faking reads, and that is just not ok from a towny perspective. You just never, ever, fake reads. If you have good reads, share them. Then, people can interact with your true reads rather than faking all of your reads and making a garbage readlist.

Sigh. Hopefully this is the end to this argument. It's been going on for too long and has done nothing for town. Just pretend my vote is on Rock rn, I don't want to put him in hammer range again. I still don't understand his defense against my attack, but I want someone else to check it for themselves, as this argument has become increasingly confbiased for both sides. smh.

[ben dover123]

Mafia know what their roles are, so if he knows that there are just two mafia goons then he has a one in three chance of getting away with it and a two in three chance of outing some other power role.

Do you think I would take these odds?

Probably not but:

I can't work out the town motivation for claiming so early?

[ben dover123]

I can't work out the town motivation for claiming so early?

Maybe being top 2 SR?

You may be a top 2 SR, but there is no need to claim when your wagon is still E-3 and there is still a larger and more motivated wagon than yours.

Maybe a big case against me?

? Who has a big case against you again? Everyone has small shards of scummy behavior but no one has a massive case against you.

[ben dover123]

Yeah so as mafia you sacrifice yourself to out a pr.

I was going to say setup is down to double goons or any setup with Doc, but I suppose if clidd's partner is competent enough maybe he wanted to sack himself to out a pr. Although, that's not a great strat to use...

[ben dover123]

And I kind of let the wave move, to see how far it would go.

I'm "ok" with claiming, if that means that we will have a decent PoE.

Aren't PoE's way more effective after flips?

[ben dover123]

And I kind of let the wave move, to see how far it would go.

I'm "ok" with claiming, if that means that we will have a decent PoE.

Aren't PoE's way more effective after flips?

With a Rock flip, it would.

:thonk: I'm not going for a Rock flip if this is how you are advocating it. Plus, I need to see how this claim unfolds before we do anything about Rock.

I don't see why town would claim when they only have two votes on them, that's the problem I'm having.

Yeah...honestly it could be seen as a panic claim ngl.

[ben dover123]

Also he's never getting eliminated is he so he doesn't even has to sacrifice himself at all necessarily.

Wdym? He could have been hanged today...

[ben dover123]

Wait, actually, it is. I would claim I get to E-1

Then why didn't you wait a bit till you were at E-1 to claim then? I'm still not quite understanding the whole scenario...

[ben dover123]

This isn't true imo, but ok.

As soon as somebody wants to eliminate you, ben dover123 will pop up and say

"Wait, what? :thonk: You seriously want to eliminate an unccd pr? smh"

and given how schmoozey you've been with him it wouldn't surprise me if that was what you were banking on.

I wouldn't do this, I'm still very unsure about this PR claim. Usually I would be skeptical about hanging a uncc'ed PR but this claim is just really weird timing wise.

[ben dover123]

A difference being that in both of those cases I guess they were at L-1, but like I say, I find claiming so early there odd as either town or mafia.,

Hm. At least in both of those scenarios it makes sense to claim timing wise. Also, this claim pings me odd too. Something doesn't feel right about clidd's behavior before the claim and then his claim as doctor...

And I think I've just had two games, Newbie 2035 and Newbie 2039 where a mafia claimed doctor day 1 and got eliminated day 1. And every time ppl are asking me 'why would mafia take that risk of claiming doctor' but I'm sure that's just like...the strategy lol.

I guess it is the leading strat for maf.

[ben dover123]

I'm still reluctant to just "go" for Chumbo, he gives me newb town vibes as I said and it seems that he was genuinely trying to sort things out and solve when he was attacking me. Although, I definitely will admit he has started to fall deeper in the shadows, he is kinda falling underneath me and has been recently following my actions...

[ben dover123]

I'm still reluctant to just "go" for Chumbo, he gives me newb town vibes as I said and it seems that he was genuinely trying to sort things out and solve when he was attacking me. Although, I definitely will admit he has started to fall deeper in the shadows, he is kinda falling underneath me and has been recently following my actions...

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: I hate the double posting thing. Ignore it please.

[ben dover123]

Why isn't Rock dead yet..

We aren't hammering him until everyone passes over your cc. That's a guarantee I can give at the very least.

[ben dover123]

That's a guarantee I can give at the very least.

You can't guarantee this when there are eight other players in the game whose behaviour you have no control over.

Ok, I take it back.

I'm

not going to get on his wagon until everyone passes your cc. I assume everyone else would hold off on hammering until then as well.

[ben dover123]

ugh. just elim me I hate this.

Wth. Why are you sounding so defeated all of a sudden. Very funny but don't try and put up a AtE show thanks.

[ben dover123]

GJ clidd, you got 5000 posts.

Wait, trendall can you rephrase why you TR Rock?

What I'm really frustrated about rn is that BM and Lunar Martian are still nullish, which is kind of bad going into D2. I want more from BM in particular...

[ben dover123]

I'm thinking about lunar or lone.

BM as third if I can't get these two.

I don't think we elim BM at all today. Maybe Lunar if Rock doesn't go through, maybe maybe maybe LoneMarkhor if that doesn't work, but almost never BM because he is so null and I think he has a good perspective we can look at D2.

[ben dover123]

Also he's never getting eliminated is he so he doesn't even has to sacrifice himself at all necessarily.

I really dislike this push from trendall on the claimed doctor. The doctor claim will be tested at night, and trendall should know better as an SE.
VOTE: trendall

what is this and what happened.

[ben dover123]

is it silly to think there's scum on my wagon based on how easy/comfortable it is?

I reckon both of them are on it.

Say, what do you think of Lavar's vote?

Also:

Wait, trendall can you rephrase why you TR Rock?

GJ clidd, you got 5000 posts.

Wait, trendall can you rephrase why you TR Rock?

What I'm really frustrated about rn is that BM and Lunar Martian are still nullish, which is kind of bad going into D2. I want more from BM in particular...

I only replaced in today, please give me some time to get caught up and adjusted to forum mafia.

Overreaction much?

[ben dover123]

Really? You said you are "really frustrated" so I said "please bear with me"...

No, I'm frustrated with myself that you are still null. You didn't need to reply to that and explicitly say "I'm still a newbie" and stuff like that, but it has been done with other newbies before so I'm not so surprised.

Say, what do you think of Lavar's vote?

I ultimately just don't agree with them but I find their vote and reasoning reasonable. In that yeah, it could be that somebody's tried to double bluff by acting scummy and then hoping this will make everybody think they are 'miselimination bait' or whatever and they get a town read off of the back of it. In reality I think they were town who found ben dover123 exasperating and just didn't care.

I think it lacks explanation to place Rock at E-1, but I suppose that may be how they just play. I think that E-1 votes have to be good, because that puts a possible miselim in hammer range, which is bad.

[ben dover123]

Overreaction much?

Yeah, people are townreading clidd out of

gut

. I'm outraged by this.

I'm pissed. Just. plain. pissed. Rock is really triggering me right now from his responses. I'm taking a break after this.

Uhhhhhhhhhh...

Did you not see this?

Rockhopper looks like scum who is trying to be seen as too scummy.
VOTE: Rockhopper

Woah woah woah lavar take it done a full notch.

Rock is E-1 now.

I want Lavar to take his vote back right now, it is a absolutely terrible vote compared to everyone else's.

If you cannot see the difference here, you are officially blind.

Don't gimme this "Oh, we can fix all of this over time/Oh, I will become more towny over time" bullcrap.

Double Pedit: ...You know what, forget it. I'm done. If no one is going to confirm that not all the points are biased, then I'm gone. Goodnight.

Hi Lunar Martian, welcome to the game, don't worry it's him not you.

Can we not put me out of context here.

[ben dover123]

Also, gn I'm off to get some sleep for tmrw. Let's see what BM has to say about clidd's claim.

[ben dover123]

But isn't rockhopper more suspicious?I mean now it seems

Yeah, a couple of people find it that way, including me, but I'm trying to keep a open mind and I'll see if I change my mind about him soon.

I see rock's posts as townie. I think it's a bit melodramatic for clidd to get so frustrated and claim, and for rock to say "just kill me"... I don't think either of them was the most voted person at the time they did that.

Rock was at E-2, clidd was at E-3 btw.
This "just kill me" act is probably over the top for Rock. Using Occam's razor this just comes from town. I've had to face this scenario before and when the newbie who was the top elimination was starting to get defeated, I got town pings from him and then he flipped town. I can show my meta research on him, but he does AtE as town, some of his other behavior doesn't match line for line but it's pretty close. If he was scum, I think he could have waited a little longer yet to show AtE, because it isn't like all of town is against him here.

Are we even going to eliminate someone day 1 because I can think of no one likely to be scum!

Hot take: We never "no-elimination" Day 1.

We could also accept the fact that I'm clear, btw.

I haven't seen any ccs so far, why wait more?

The last person for the CC check is BM, but I think you are 80% cleared should he not CC you. 20% being somehow you got the odds right and we are in Cop 9. I will cry foul if you actually betted having Cop 9 as setup.

lol

Hey Lavar, I don't particularly suspect you, but this comment after my claim followed by total silence was a ping. Just for the record.

Yeah, Lavar has been doing that on-off behavior recently. He started off so proactive and then it all died down in a matter of days. Doesn't quite ping me right.

Can the doctor protect himself?

Yes, I can.

... Self-protection isn't on for Doctor.

@Trendal and Ben, do you guys have any takes on these "town"slips from Lone?

I'll look back at them, I'm fairly certain they come from newbie town perspective, like the masons post. I think that Lone wouldn't attempt to rolefish because newbie scum rarely like taking big plays during the day, and the post probably comes from newbie town trying to make connections through PR's. Nothing more than that.

[ben dover123]

Wait, town BM doesn't do analysis?

Also, scum are narrowed down to {Rock, BM, Lavar, Chumbo (maybe)}. This is a pretty good PoE pool, wouldn't you say?

[ben dover123]

The last person for the CC check is BM, but I think you are 80% cleared should he not CC you. 20% being somehow you got the odds right and we are in Cop 9. I will cry foul if you actually betted having Cop 9 as setup.

Hmmm, that's out of my league, tbh.

My scumgame is more simple, I don't like gambits.

I wouldn't deny the chance of you not taking gambits. I find that you were a little too active and your pocketing was a questionable decision as PR, so I'm not sure what you were aiming for with those decisions...

[ben dover123]

Maybe my mentality is always of vanilla, so I play within the same concept regardless of being PR or not.

And pocket is something you can do as town too, but you're sus of it because all of that stuff about my meta.

Oh ho, so you do accept the fact that you were pocketing me. Huh, that explains a bit. Well, I've never seen a town use pocketing before, because if they are towny enough they should be able to get people on their side regardless of pocketing.

[ben dover123]

[1] clidd (Battle Mage)

Hum.

Is he even reading ?

Be patient. He will see you claim at some point.

tbh I could go one step up and remove Chumbo from the PoE, but I don't think he is allowed to leave yet.

The thing is, {Lavar, Rock} just doesn't work. Lavar brought Rock to E-1, which is just not going to happen from scum Lavar and scum Rock. So, if Chumbo was to be removed from the PoE, BM is lockscum.

Chumbo's recent actions are getting less towny, which is the problem with removing him from the PoE rn. Earlier I would have gotten him out of the PoE for being newbie town, but I have noticed he has gone back into the shadows and isn't really showing me newbie town vibes anymore. So, if Chumbo can show he is still the newbie town I once saw, BM is lockscum from here on out (assuming you are the doctor, which is like 90% guaranteed at this point)

[ben dover123]

Question: why is clidd lying?

Wait, what do you mean?

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: Where is he lying? That is my question.

Are you talking about the claim?

[ben dover123]

I think he wants to understand how it would be possible for me to lie about a claim as scum.

I don't think that is what he was aiming for. The way his question is worded it sounds like he is going to CC you.

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: Oh wait, I'm dumb. You mean, "why could clidd be lying about his claim" kind of thing, right?

[ben dover123]

I am not counterclaiming. It has been pointed out that clidd is lying about an aspect of his claim. Clidd, why are you lying?

Wait, what aspect of his claim? I don't understand. The only way we can prove that clidd's claim is 100% false is if Jailkeeper, Mason, Town Friendly Neighbor, or the real Doctor speaks up. If none of these happen, then either

clidd got insanely lucky and we are in cop 9 or he is the real doctor. Of course, it could be possible that the real doctor or a PR that can CC this claim doesn't want to speak up, but they should, because if clidd's claim is nullfied

then clidd may be scum. I don't think anyone has said that clidd is lying about an aspect of his claim? We have been considering if he could possibly be scum trying to out a PR here though.

[ben dover123]

I may sound like a pedant, but it wouldn't actually be a Cop9er setup. Cop9 has a free green check while this setup would not.

Um, ok...not really a necessary comment. Who do you think is scum now?

Question: why is clidd lying?

He's mafia

Wait, what?

[ben dover123]

I think it lacks explanation to place Rock at E-1, but I suppose that may be how they just play. I think that E-1 votes have to be good, because that puts a possible miselim in hammer range, which is bad.

I don't really see E-1 votes as something that has to have an awesome reason, but I do think you should announce when you put someone there.

But I'm really working under the assumption that clidd is maf so we'll see how that pans out.

Why would you work under this assumption? What would change in your eyes if clidd isn't mafia?

Yes, I can.

Did you read your role PM? I don't know what type of move this is.

The last person for the CC check is BM, but I think you are 80% cleared should he not CC you. 20% being somehow you got the odds right and we are in Cop 9. I will cry foul if you actually betted having Cop 9 as setup.

Personally I'd consider BM to have not cc'd by now. If he knows he's at E-2 he's had to have seen the claim or people talking about it. Not sure why he's still voting you though.

I'm getting a little bit worried about Lone now, he seems to just want to coast on by with an elimination joining both the rockhopper and BM wagons without saying much that wasn't just regurgitated from other players.
Also, clidd needs to learn patience.

I have no clue why clidd told lone that doc can self-protect, when that is obviously wrong. Is this a scumslip?

BM is voting clidd now

Yeah. I originally TR'ed lone for being newb town, especially with that masons post, but I may have to review his townslips all over again.

[ben dover123]

I understand that, but why use clidd!scum as a basis for your current PoE?

Because I think that he's the most likely player to be mafia.

Whaaa...

I still don't get this chain of logic. You think clidd is most likely player to be mafia, but you still don't want to eliminate him because he is a uncontested doctor claim? I thought you chased your SR's really hard...

A doctor cannot target themselves, so that can't self-protect, I just looked this up on the wiki.

It is in the sample role PM as well.

[ben dover123]

A doctor cannot target themselves, so that can't self-protect, I just looked this up on the wiki.

And clidd, the doctor would know that. Hence clidd is lying. The question is: why?

Oh, now I understand, Lunar. Yeah, I was wondering about this too. As a doctor with a doctor role PM, he had to have seen it once to confirm his rule. And then, he says:

Can the doctor protect himself?

Yes, I can.

When the role PM says:

Town Doctor

Welcome!

You are a

Town Doctor

.

You may target one player per night phase. This player will be protected from kills during that night phase.

You cannot target yourself.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Notice the bold part, in particular.

Ok, I side with Lunar for this one. Why would you lie to LoneMarkhor, clidd?

[ben dover123]

Realistically, people make mistakes like that all the time. However, how many people have ever played a game of mafia, either on this forum or anywhere else, where the doctor can protect themselves? Like I don't think I've ever come across that.

666th post.

Doctor self-protect is just never a thing. Plus, clidd has played many games, I assume, so he should have experience with this kind of stuff.

The post from Lone gives me town pings though. I wouldn't be surprised if clidd thought Lone was rolefishing again and wanted to know if he could kill clidd during the night and clidd couldn't self protect. That may explain why clidd lied, but I want the real reasons, because I just don't think Lone would ask that question in the thread when 1. he was already caught for potential rolefishing in his masons post, and 2. The info is just in the role PM tab, and he probably would have asked his partner first..

But let's just not talk about that, ok?

he also says this in the next post

Yeah, but this is kind of NAI since Doctors don't want to talk about their ability anyways.

Pedit: Uh. You didn't get any reactions from that, you know.

Because there are a couple things that just don't line up with your PR claim tbh.

[ben dover123]

C'mon, can we just stop tripping over our own feets? we are regressing in the game.

This sounds like a nice attempt to divert attention, duly noted.

Also, maybe I'm just pretending I think you're maf because I'm 'testing for reactions' of how other ppl respond to it lololo

That one got me.]

It's not 'bias', people had a maf read on you before you claimed, that is supposedly why you claimed apparently.

He claimed because people had "big cases" against him...

[ben dover123]

I can't work out the town motivation for claiming so early?

Maybe being top 2 SR?

Maybe a big case against me?

Just for reference.

[ben dover123]

who knows what would happen at E-1.

I can tell you, You would have claimed doctor and it would have been a more believable claim.

Yeah, also this is the reason why people are still talking about your claim btw.

[ben dover123]

Because you're more likely to actually be the final elimination at that point, whereas at the point you claimed, it's like there are still days left, there are votes on different people, the final elimination could conceivably ended up being anybody so there was no need for you to claim.

Yeah. Rock's wagon was E-2 and coming off a hot run in the morning.

Why would my claim be more credible on E-1? the only difference was that I called out earlier and that, in fact, saved Ben time to rationalize his PoE (and probably others too).

The only point is that we are now wasting time on a futile discussion.

Listen, the thing with claims is that they are like the last defense. The reasons for your claim are not last defense worthy, especially when Rock's wagon is E-2, yours is E-3, and the motivation behind your claim at that time was "ehhh". tbh this may be clidd trying to lead town with his claim. It would fit the circumstances...

Pedit: You are not clear, don't get cocky over this.

We still have 4 days left? Jeez, there was tons of claimspace. That is what is confusing us all.

Argh I'm getting sniped

[ben dover123]

And can you explain this ^

You called me the most disingenuous person in the game for no reason.

Because you're lying about being clear and pretending that you don't know how doctor works.

Ok, so you can read minds.

No but I can take an educated guess. This is a spectacularly bad comeback.

Also, with this claim you are either conftown or likely scum, a huge difference. In fact, solving you could be how we win this game.

Yeah, this rally is not that great at all.

Trendall is not trolling, don't try to change the argument.

[ben dover123]

Trendall is just trolling by now, lol.

Actually, I don't think he's trolling. I just want to see his lines.

Wha...

[ben dover123]

Yeah after you didn't take to that he backed down with it.

Actually, I take back, he's trolling.

This change of mind is terrible. Now that Trendall notes that as soon as I disagree, you go back on your own opinion again. smh

Pedit:

Wait, he's not.

:thonk:

[ben dover123]

VOTE: clidd

smh

Pedit: Stop. Just because you are uncc'ed doc, doesn't mean you are cleared. I don't like how clidd is resting on the fact that he is uncc'ed

[ben dover123]

Yes, but they were actually scumhunting, not doing some crapshunting about me testing reactions.

There is more to this than crap scumhunting right now.

Plus, the reaction test is an actually terrible excuse for lying about your role. I just don't bite it.

Pedit: Lmao. lemme get my "get roasted" gif up. Thanks Trendall.

[ben dover123]

Whoops. I thought you CC'ed him. Oh dear, this is bad...

[ben dover123]

Ok can we do it this way? I'm cop so we won't get clidd for now and he can 'protect' me. We'll get someone else.

That means either I get an investigation tonight, or I die tonight and clidd is mafia and that's one down (don't let him try to convince you with any wifom stuff lol)

It's my first time playing cop and I don't know how obvious I've been, but I can't imagine I've hidden it terribly well and I think either way I'll be a good nightkill target, and if clidd is doc he probably wouldn't have protected me. So that's why I'm claiming.

Hm. This might still be 2 mafia goons, 1 cop, 6 vanilla townies. Ugh...

bruh

Lavar, can you say more than these 1 word posts. We need more from you than just "bruh"

[ben dover123]

I think Trendall would have been a decent nk had he not claimed here. Scum could have killed you for reasons other than a PR.

You're right about not protecting you, I was going to protect Ben.

Yeah, I was thinking the same. I'm the most obvious nk target here.

Pedit: Lavar, stop. I'm being serious here. We have both PR's outed already, and we need to focus up for these last days of D1.

Yeah. We should formulate a plan for both of you since you are both outed.

[ben dover123]

If yes, they will have to choose between me and trendall to roleblock and kill the other.

I believe both of you are practically useless now in terms of night utility.

I mean, thanks for stating the obvious.

I think it's pretty obvious how this night will go, we definitely don't elim clidd or trendall today, choose from {Lavar, Rock, BM, Chumbo maybe}

Pedit: That's E-1. Watch it.

[ben dover123]

Well, clidd is completely useless anyways...

So, we have to root out scum here otherwise its going to be 2 scum and 1 PR 5 townies and the PR is useless.

[ben dover123]

Yeah hardcore mode.

God, hardcore mode with a demotivated BM is not going to work well...

But it hardly matters if clidd is a doc now so

we definitely don't elim clidd or trendall today, choose from {Lavar, Rock, BM, Chumbo maybe}

Pedit: That's E-1. Watch it.

Aren't you voting clidd?

Lavar, actually do something. I know I'm voting clidd.

UNVOTE: clidd

We need more time to think

Pedit: It's ok, this game is messed up anyways.

[ben dover123]

I just played like mafia this game lmao

You literally played like your scum meta. smh.

[ben dover123]

UNVOTE: clidd

We need more time to think

We really don't, we need to put the game to night to like...stop everybody lmao. Honestly clidd is like wifom hell now so he needs to be the elimination.

My mental is literally in pieces now

tbh yeah we need a break. Town is wayy to frantic going into D2.

Well, here goes. I'll take the blame if clidd is town but he is just a minefield of "ehhhhh" so VOTE: clidd

I'm exhausted.

[ben dover123]

Is this hammer ?

No. It's E-1.

[ben dover123]

Lavar isn't giving me the right pings recently. Like, please give us a take or something that we can work from. Town is literally imploding.

[ben dover123]

For example, Lavar is literally just posting one liners like "bruh" and "you're going to get roleblocked" and obvious stuff like that, as if he is coasting the sidelines watching town just go boom boom

Pedit: You have literally no right to troll here bud.

VOTE: LavarManos

Anyone want to jump on here as well?