PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)


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Post Post #4519 (isolation #0) » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:14 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

Spoiler:
In post 4506, Double the Trouble wrote:Shamelessly stealing Elli's post from this Beneath the Mask

Okay so here is what is going to happen today.
I am either posting this myself OR Pooky is posting it for me because Spiffeh + Dunn thought killing me would stop them from losing the game.

And before you ask "Why should you listen to this unwell player"
I am a mason.
MURDERCAT is a mason.
Creature is a mason.

And we are here to tell you that this game is over and that no one is allowed to have any more fun!

1) We will be massclaiming! This is mostly to wrap up the game and any loose ends. If there's something that went wrong in our solve, this is where we check our answers and find out. The order is non-negotiatable!

Here are some rules
FOR THE VIG. DO NOT OUT.
We are okay trading mason pieces to flip very important slots as well as just gain thread control but you're much more valuable if you stay hidden and you shouldn't out unless you have a reason to out yourself.
a) Unvote if you're voting now and don't vote until the damn thing is over.
b) Claim in the designated order. Want to CC someone on something? I don't care, you wait your turn.
c) Claim everything and do it correctly. Don't fuck up.
d) AFTER the massclaim is over, You can either A. Wait and think a little before you vote or B. Let the masons do the thinking for you because unlike half of this town that wants to play mono red, we're mono blue players.

Here is the order
Spiffeh
Dunnstral
Polar Bears
Pichu
mastina
Ircher
Ydrasse
Solstice
Toogeloo
DEB

2) After massclaim, unless something major changes our solve, we will be executing the scumteam 1 by 1.

There is no more fun in this game anymore.
Unless this solve goes horribly wrong, we do not care about your reads.
This game is over.

I'll (or if Ali is dead, Ali will) explain the solve once everything has been done.


I don’t understand this order. It’s nuts that you have Toog at the bottom and us that high. I want Toog to claim before we do.
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Post Post #4584 (isolation #1) » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:02 am

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 4563, Double the Trouble wrote:We're doing a hostile takeover of this town. And there will be major changes around here while we're running the show.
You've all been living in a machinated dream world where Creature and Double the Trouble is scum, and fluffposters such as Ydrasse and Polar Bear Express ran freely with their agenda. Now it's time for a brutal wake up. We will longer allow anyone to place their faith and allegiance in muppets such as Dunnstral and Spiffeh, as that loyalty shall now be put exclusively unto us. The voices of reason.
Disloyalty to Pooky the great and his appointed deacons will result in unpleasant consequences.
Say goodbye to shitty scum AtE and fluffspam, and give a warm welcome to our new world order. That shall, with the strength of our combined iron will, act as the only viable antidote to Flavour Leaf's poison.

- Norwee
Are you seriously scumreading Ydrasse? No wonder you’re so bad at reading us. Yeah no, I’m not losing this game because you have bad reads.
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Post Post #5023 (isolation #2) » Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:08 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 4758, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
In post 4756, Solstice wrote:[I thought it was really jokey. If Ydrasses' scumteam killed Hectic, I think she'd be practically obligated to do that bit. It's not like it was her choice to kill him]
you mean she wasn't really shaking ?! :shifty:
I bet money that it I were to say that you wouldn’t believe me right?
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Post Post #5272 (isolation #3) » Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:52 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 5269, Double the Trouble wrote:
In post 5268, Polar Bear Express wrote:
In post 5266, Double the Trouble wrote:okay well
I wonder if Pooky's theory that dunn flips supersaint is correct then :good:
Link? Quote? I couldn’t find his post.
thats cuz he didn't post it its mostly just something we talked about because I asked him why does dunn not claim vig in response to the guilty and that was his response.
Is that what you think as well? Did he explain his reasoning for this?
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Post Post #5279 (isolation #4) » Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:13 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

Well, that’s great you can do that but not everyone can. I tend to lose all motivation to try when I’m wrongly scumread, if nothing I do or say makes any difference, so that’s where I am rn. If I feel I’m not getting listened to and my efforts don’t matter, it’s hard to keep caring. Ircher wondered why I suddenly got enthusiastic and started posting a lot when I had pretty much lurked out the first two days. Well, the Bell flip gave me new motivation, so I started really efforting but there comes a point when you realize your banging your head against a brick wall and I realize my attitude probably royally sucks and maybe we deserve to die for that alone but I just feel it doesn’t matter what I post, the reaction I get will be the same, because that’s exactly what it’s feeling like to me. If that wasn’t the case, believe me I’d be doing a helluva lot more.

I really want a reason to care about this game and solve because that’s obviously what I signed up for. I don’t need to be a universal townread to effort but constantly hearing things like I’m in the vigpool make me not want to bother.
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Post Post #5985 (isolation #5) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:04 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 5963, Noraa wrote:
In post 5960, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
In post 5957, notscience wrote:Pooky why’d you put us in your pool
i put all the hydras in the pool so i would have more people to hang out with.
I thought it was because you loved Queen Noraa and crown princess gloria :(
:(
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Post Post #5986 (isolation #6) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:08 pm

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In post 5972, Hectic wrote:
In post 5967, Ircher wrote:
In post 5966, MURDERCAT wrote:Oh yes I just realized my elo is going up
Indeed; this game will be included! The update should be up by the end of next week or so. It takes some time to enter the data.
Oh no, my boost won't be so good since I was nightkilled...
Mastina was wrong wrt any crumb. We thought you and Ydrasse were masons. I wanted Mastina > you but was glad after you flipped obviously because of the strongwilled thing.
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Post Post #5988 (isolation #7) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:10 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 5974, Not Known 15 wrote:Good job everyone!
Unfortunately for the scum team, games are designed for the average playerlist, which does not contain as many strong players as this game did.
I still think that me ending Day 1 with that quickhammer wasn't that bad for town. D1 was a spammy mess.
7 TPRs vs 2 scum PRs was hard to overcome eventhough we only hit TPRs, one (Hectic) by sheer accident.
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Post Post #5989 (isolation #8) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:12 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 5970, Toogeloo wrote:This game is probably indicative of why no scum stump would ever draft me lol. I only really have two modes. Transparent Townie, or I think I'm a Transparent Townie.

I was never gonna budge on my PBE scum read. I just suck at expressing why I read players as scum.
But you wrongly scumread me in Death Curse.
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Post Post #5990 (isolation #9) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:13 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

@Ydrasse, did you try to vig us N2? If the answer is yes then I will lord that over FL . . . maybe. :wink:
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Post Post #5994 (isolation #10) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:18 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 5980, Flavor Leaf wrote:2 concedes in 1 day. 6 scum games in a row.

I can't
It’s weird how RNG works. I roll town the majority of the time. Of course in this case it was you not RNG.
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Post Post #5998 (isolation #11) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:21 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 5993, Ydrasse wrote:
In post 5990, Gloria Cleary wrote:@Ydrasse, did you try to vig us N2? If the answer is yes then I will lord that over FL . . . maybe. :wink:
sure did!
I told you guys, you should have listened to me.

I knew something was up when you were suddenly locked on us being scum but wouldn’t give any reasons. I wanted you killed > DT because I was sure you’d out it but everyone was no we have to kill a mason first. :/
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Post Post #5999 (isolation #12) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:22 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 5997, Alisae wrote:Gloria you were fun to play with
<3

Thanks I would have really loved to have been a mason though.
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Post Post #6007 (isolation #13) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:25 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6000, Ydrasse wrote:i wasn’t ever gonna out it there but like i said earlier in this thread as soon as i saw my shot failed i like, just had this feeling it was specifically to protect you guys
Why wouldn’t you though? Like had we aliened Toog, we might have won but not had you outed that failed vigshot.
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Post Post #6011 (isolation #14) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:28 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6005, Alisae wrote:being masons with you woulda been interesting
Definitely. We could always hydra at some point too. Masons are my favourite town role.
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Post Post #6017 (isolation #15) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:34 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6008, Noraa wrote:
In post 5985, Gloria Cleary wrote:
In post 5963, Noraa wrote:
In post 5960, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
In post 5957, notscience wrote:Pooky why’d you put us in your pool
i put all the hydras in the pool so i would have more people to hang out with.
I thought it was because you loved Queen Noraa and crown princess gloria :(
:(
gloria, Pooky doesn't love us!

Is that true @Pooky? :cry:


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Post Post #6018 (isolation #16) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:36 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6012, Ydrasse wrote:
In post 6007, Gloria Cleary wrote:
In post 6000, Ydrasse wrote:i wasn’t ever gonna out it there but like i said earlier in this thread as soon as i saw my shot failed i like, just had this feeling it was specifically to protect you guys
Why wouldn’t you though? Like had we aliened Toog, we might have won but not had you outed that failed vigshot.
eeeeh, i wasn't completely sure even if it was like, a super super strong hunch and like in theory i could have tried to case you guys but meh! worst case i die people see i'm ungated and they can see who i sussed the night i didn't shoot.
But no one thought that because you outed DEB but not us. :lol:
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Post Post #6019 (isolation #17) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:37 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6013, Alisae wrote:
In post 6011, Gloria Cleary wrote:
In post 6005, Alisae wrote:being masons with you woulda been interesting
Definitely. We could always hydra at some point too. Masons are my favourite town role.
if u find a game thats appealing let me know.
I don't play opens tho
Sure. :)
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Post Post #6047 (isolation #18) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:31 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6027, Noraa wrote:He probably got bell night 1.
Yeah I think that’s obvious post flip because he was that certain on Bell!scum.
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Post Post #6051 (isolation #19) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:35 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6036, Flavor Leaf wrote:
In post 6034, mastina wrote:
In post 5859, Flavor Leaf wrote:I disagree that Solstice wouldn't have gone down in the gamestate at the current time.
And who votes them? Not the masons, per Alisae; not me; other slots were townreading Solstice and scumreading DEB beyond that, so if DEB claimed a guilty on someone outside of the POE, it's DEB who dies D3 rather than Dunn. DEB only lived by claiming a guilty on someone already in the POE.
They wouldn't need to be, we would have had a Supersaint if they werent a Supersaint Enabler.

The Supersaint was negative utility for us with a Supersaint Enabler and Full Vig.
+1

The SS role was essentially neutralized by enabler claim. And Ydrasse vigging Toog doomed us.
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Post Post #6054 (isolation #20) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:37 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6040, mastina wrote:
In post 5872, Spiffeh wrote:Like Toog, Solstice, mastina, Ircher were the ones we needed to get 2 mislims within and they all towned it up so hard
For the record, I do feel like the scum could
theoretically
still have won, because the counter to town towning it up is for scum to town it up hard and if everyone looks town even the scum, it can lead to the town being eliminated. Theoretically. If the scum towning it up could look more town than the town towning it up.

But, given how difficult it'd be in practice (the strategy may be theoretically a way to make the game winnable, but making that theory become reality is a whole different thing), I do sympathize with the difficulty. :P
We would have either had to have killed Ydrasse N3 or aliened Toog N4. It’s ironic that we lost in this ridiculously townsided setup despite NKing only TPRs and Toog was the only vt kill.
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Post Post #6057 (isolation #21) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:41 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6050, Spiffeh wrote:We also thought you were masons
I legit lol’d when Mastina posted I knew Hectic’s role because of his crumb. We all just thought Hectic and Ydrasse were masons prior to the flip/mass claim.
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Post Post #6059 (isolation #22) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:41 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6053, Brian Skies wrote:Interesting game though. Thanks for the game.

Disappointed Flavor Leaf didn't get us the second time around but dems the breaks I guess. Hard setup for scum too imo. Pretty impressed scum got as far as they did.
<3
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Post Post #6067 (isolation #23) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:44 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6056, Morning Tweet wrote:I assumed supersaint was a red herring cause thatd be purely negative utility to scum but nope

that was a fun game though, everyone was great

Thanks for modding !
How often does that kind of thing happen? Generally an enabler outright implies the role being enabled exists in the game and since no one claimed town SS, everyone then logically assumed that there had to be a scum supersaint in the setup.
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Post Post #6072 (isolation #24) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:47 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6058, Brian Skies wrote:Like Dunn and Toog were my golden obvtown townreads and watching town eliminate them made me so sad.
Dunn and Solstice were both obvtown because of Royalty. I caught Dunn!scum in that but no one would listen to me, so it was super obvious to me that both were town here. I have no meta on scum!Toog so really can’t comment on that.
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Post Post #6075 (isolation #25) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6061, Flavor Leaf wrote:I'm salty nobody thought I'd come up with a Supersaint Enabler fake claim without a Supersaint.
This is the only game I’d even ever heard of that had a supersaint enabler.
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Post Post #6077 (isolation #26) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:51 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6068, Brian Skies wrote:Pichu was a very surprising enjoyable player this game.

10/10 would want to play with again.
Why is that a surprise? He’s always a delight to play with.
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Post Post #6087 (isolation #27) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:54 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6079, Brian Skies wrote:This is the first time I've heard of Hectic.
We actually thought it was Chenn before FL got it confirmed except for Noraa, she is the alt-hunting queen.
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Post Post #6119 (isolation #28) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:13 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6107, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:probably the best line from Mason Discord:

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Murderkitty wanted to be filmed live stream if we were town? That’s wild. :lol:

I felt really bad for Bell btw. He was literally begging FL to die. :(. I think he had the roughest time this game from anyone.
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Post Post #6136 (isolation #29) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:50 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6132, pichu wrote:
In post 6130, MURDERCAT wrote:Do we get gloria alt reveal confirmed now?
next game i promise
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Post Post #6137 (isolation #30) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:56 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6129, Noraa wrote:
In post 6127, pichu wrote:wtf spiffeh
Hi gloria! (Hectic spilled the beans that u two switched places)
In post 6130, MURDERCAT wrote:Do we get gloria alt reveal confirmed now?
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Post Post #6139 (isolation #31) » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:03 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6138, Toogeloo wrote:Scum claiming their game hinged on getting me mis-limed makes me feel better about making sure I made every play I could to lim myself outside the launch.
Getting you mis-limed meant we only then needed one of Ircher/Mastina/Solstice instead of two. But had we anticipated the Ydra vig, we could have at least looked better by not putting DEB at E-1 but he wasn’t supposed to self-hammer right away, so I was pissed about that.
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Post Post #6152 (isolation #32) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:38 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6144, Blade Dancer wrote:
All PTs are now public.
You were not supposed to release it without the redactions. :(
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Post Post #6154 (isolation #33) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:47 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6153, mastina wrote:Subject: PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf - Moderator PT
Blade Dancer wrote:
Night 2 Actions
Dr Easy Bake kills
Mastina
Pichu.
So I assume this means I came close to being the N2 nightkill. :P
You were the initial N2 NK then we changed it.
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Post Post #6161 (isolation #34) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:57 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6159, MURDERCAT wrote:Reading scum PTs when you had a decent/good game is very satisfying
Subject: Silent Star 3: Royalty - Conspirators
Morning Tweet wrote:Gloria needs to realize that scum will typically not tailor their plan to tricking her

......except in the case where we know sussing her will always result in OMGUS
This is why your reasoning for scumreading my half of the hydra anyway is bad. :lol:

If someone is hard confibiasing on me and trying to get me killed when I’m town, I tend to think they’re scum unless other things make me think otherwise.

Plus, how much of the game do I really need to be following to hear Noraa tell me that you’re deathtunnelling us? Like that wasn’t exactly infrequent let alone subtle on your part.
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Post Post #6163 (isolation #35) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:59 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6161, Gloria Cleary wrote:
In post 6159, MURDERCAT wrote:Reading scum PTs when you had a decent/good game is very satisfying
Subject: Silent Star 3: Royalty - Conspirators
Morning Tweet wrote:Gloria needs to realize that scum will typically not tailor their plan to tricking her

......except in the case where we know sussing her will always result in OMGUS
This is why your reasoning for scumreading my half of the hydra anyway is bad. :lol:

If someone is hard confibiasing on me and trying to get me killed when I’m town, I tend to think they’re scum unless other things make me think otherwise.

Plus, how much of the game do I really need to be following to hear Noraa tell me that you’re deathtunnelling us? Like that wasn’t exactly infrequent let alone subtle on your part.
Subject: Silent Star 3: Royalty - Conspirators
Morning Tweet wrote:she BoPs the entire playerlist and reads ppl that way, but only off their read on her specifically
Also this. I tend to be extremely omgussy irrespective of alignment.
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Post Post #6164 (isolation #36) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:04 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6162, Noraa wrote:Gloria was actually the townier half of our hydra imo. I started breaking apart after a tiny bit.
Well, you’ll live much longer in all of your games if you stop doing the fake stuff. I rarely fake anything, whether it be AtE, derping, etc. I try to stick as close to the truth as possible with of course the exception of obviously not telling the truth about my alignment.

But you started getting a lot townier mid to late game, so if you can start off that way, you’ll be golden.

Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed having you for a hydra partner. Next time I want us to not only be town but the most obvious townie in the playerlist. :P
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Post Post #6165 (isolation #37) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:11 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6160, Ircher wrote:
In post 75, Titus wrote:One. Flavor had half his roles be prs, so I aimed similarly for town but they are weak (yours) to useless (notscience hydra) to negative utlity (the vig) PRs.
That last part is very interesting!

Despite the vig missing both shots (including hitting a town PR), the vig actually played well. Both of those shots were people we were going to lim anyway, so while it may seem like the vig is negative utility (because they often shoot town), in truth, good vigs are really helpful as they eliminate suspects that would otherwise waste the town's attention.

(Also, for the record, full vig is actually considered a very strong role by most people.)
In post 116, Toogeloo wrote:My play was obviously terrible this game, but I was drowning in pages to sift through, and this player list loved to make a lot of noise. I still stand on my PBE scum read, which has been my #1 pick since Day 1. Mastina is #2.
Your play may not have been the best, but it wasn't terrible. It's more that comparatively, your slot was a bit muddier compared to people like mastina. I was starting to (just a little) to come around on you; I'm not definite I would've still been keen on limming you if you hadn't been vigged.
In post 51, Alisae wrote:if we lose i actually just have no one to blame but myself
(I would advise people not to be so hard on themselves. We all make mistakes; we all make wrong reads from time to time. Also, while you were a mason, in general, town pays much less attention to the reads of the dead versus the reads of the still living. So even if you express a strong read while you are living, there's a good chance town disregards it or regards it a little bit as soon as you die.)
In post 58, Alisae wrote:Like I hold myself to these really high expectations because I'm like a perfectionist
Tip: Don't be. It's a ridiculously high standard, and it causes more stress than anything. Just focus on doing your best.
+1

Yes in what world is full vig a negative utility? And we were completely helpless against a strongwilled cop anything, so don’t tell me this setup wasn’t ridiculously townsided. Town had no negative utility roles and only two weak ones: N & C and SS enabler. Roaming doc + strongwilled goon cop + ungated vig + 3 mason ICs vs. 1 scum supersaint + 1 ailen? Not much of a contest there.
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Post Post #6166 (isolation #38) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:12 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

N + C should be
informed townie
.
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Post Post #6168 (isolation #39) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:14 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6167, MURDERCAT wrote:
In post 6161, Gloria Cleary wrote:This is why your reasoning for scumreading my half of the hydra anyway is bad.
My SR was based basically entirely on Noraa and nothing was going to shake me off it
But you also gave reasons for scumreading me, so I wanted to point out why they were not good reasons to scumread me in particular.
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Post Post #6170 (isolation #40) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:20 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6167, MURDERCAT wrote:
In post 6161, Gloria Cleary wrote:This is why your reasoning for scumreading my half of the hydra anyway is bad.
My SR was based basically entirely on Noraa and nothing was going to shake me off it
In post 6168, Gloria Cleary wrote:
In post 6167, MURDERCAT wrote:
In post 6161, Gloria Cleary wrote:This is why your reasoning for scumreading my half of the hydra anyway is bad.
My SR was based basically entirely on Noraa and nothing was going to shake me off it
But you also gave reasons for scumreading me, so I wanted to point out why they were not good reasons to scumread me in particular.
There is a joyful happiness that exudes from her posting like summer rain.

This post in particular.

It feels extremely pure and innocent.[/quote]

I believe that Noraa's tone this game is fake and over the top.
In post 226, Polar Bear Express wrote:me wuz joking btw. me wills follow some rules :(
In post 335, Polar Bear Express wrote:Don't use AtE. 100% scum indicative. you use that evilness to pocket me >:(
scum scum scum scum scum scum scum scum scum
HMPH

u thought I would tunnel u. 200% scum indicative.
town!me has been proven to be able to hunt scum!alisaes.
tell the truth. ur scum again aren't you?

back for round two of Lets break Noraa's heart

NOPE. NOT IN MY GOOD CHRISTIAN HOUSEHOLD(im not even christian but like sh)

VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: Double the trouble
In post 498, Polar Bear Express wrote:*raises my eyebrow*

O_o
o_O
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
me shalls give rvs TR lollipops to u two. I expects green apple TR lollipops back tho and they must be green apple or blue raspberry!
For your consideration, two of Noraa's town isos:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Skim through posts 1-500 in each of those games. Notice how much more exaggerated Noraa is here?

Now you might just look at those posts and think it is within Noraa's normal range, but look at page 2 in her iso.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12398736

Nothing in page 2 of the iso is anything like these first posts, suggesting to me that the tone is fake and she is having trouble keeping it up. Noraa is even aware of this and points it out:
In post 1694, Polar Bear Express wrote:The baby talk will be back tomorrow when I'm less sleepy :D
[/spoiler]

Spoiler: 2 - Response to Pressure
Noraa has trouble making up cases as scum. Look at these posts in death curse (links rather than quotes due to length):
8962
9127
9233

Now compare to the case that Noraa has on me in this game:
2513
2523

For full context, the following posts are:
2514
2524

In both cases, there is no actual analysis happening. Noraa is linking a lot of quotes, providing a superficial description of the events, and claiming that I am scum off them without actually providing any reasoning behind her claims just as she did in my last scum game with her.


Spoiler: 3 - Gloria
Before I begin this section on Gloria, it is important to point out that I am
not
making a case based on activity here. I believe that Gloria has had RL stuff going on and I don't use arguments like that because, as I said with BM, I think it's kinda shitty. However, given Gloria's lack of activity you would not expect her to 1. be particularly invested in the game and 2. have strong opinions about me. However, there are a number of instances that suggest to me that Gloria is in a scum PT and is aware of certain pushes that need to be made (currently, this refers to attacking me, in an attempt to reduce the influence that I am having on the game as I am correct about Noraa scum).

First, some evidence that Gloria shouldn't be very aware of the gamestate:
In post 1764, Polar Bear Express wrote:Pichu, Gloria isnt feeling well or something.

She's been talking to me a little bit about the game but methinks she's either sick or sad.
Apparently they haven't been talking very much about the game. Fair enough. Now let's look at the Gloria posts that come after this.
In post 2046, Polar Bear Express wrote:VOTE: Murderkitty

I don’t like the way he’s been pushing us, it feels very disingenuous to me. He sees Noraa as easy miselimbait and I feel didn’t engage me in good faith.

DT shading us for my not posting enough is also bas but they might actually believe it. I don’t trust murderkitty and how he’s been trying to drive a miselim without following up on the answers to the questions he asked of me. What happened to that MC? Why did you ask me those questions, then fail to follow up on them? Why didn’t you ask me to explain or elaborate on those reads? You just dropped it altogether. I want to know why and I’m not moving my vote until you explain this.
This is a strong reaction for someone barely following the game and against someone who Noraa had not really been pushing at all, no?
In post 2067, Polar Bear Express wrote: Well we are a hydra, so are you saying you’re townreading me?

Well I’m really trying. If you recall I think it was either my first or second post to LLD in Death Curse was I expect to be generally useless early game and I wasn’t going through that rl thing at that time. I’m not good at larges. I get lost with the sheer number of players I have to sort, pages to read etc.

I still like Ydrasee because she’s engaging a slot and Pichu and I think this is probably town! MT we’re seeing. Wrt BM I did like their sincerity but as I said before I have no meta on them and if Noraa’s right about them being TPR then it’s obviously a bad wagon.

I’m kind’ve wondering why DT has ignored my posts about my rl issues and how I even said that Pooky can confirm I’m having a rough time of it. @DT, did you just skip those posts because you called my lack of activity scum indicative despite my posts literally telling you that Pooky can verify I was telling the truth about that, so why the unwarrented shade on me for that?
This to me feels like someone who is more aware of the gamestate than they are letting on. Once again, I am not suggesting that Gloria isn't dealing with real stuff. I am suggesting she is getting info from a scum PT and has an agenda that she is pushing. There is no effort, for example, to look through my iso after accusing me to see what she has missed. To me, this is behavior from someone who is over-informed and pushing something on the thread, not a townie who is trying to get back into the game.


I may not be the greatest mafia player ever, but I know when I've caught scum. I let Pooky and mastina run the show D1 and we missed. Let me take my shot.

VOTE: Polar Bear Express[/quote]

So, I was debunking “Spoiler 3” because none of that ever makes me scum.
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Post Post #6171 (isolation #41) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:22 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6169, Ircher wrote:
In post 325, Gloria Cleary wrote:You’re doing awesome Noraa. Next time you’re scum and hopefully the RNG gods will finally cut you a break and you won’t be for a long time after this - tell your scumteam not to hardbus you D1 if ever, seriously. I think that’s the REAL reason you guys lost, because of all of the associatives literally tying you to your buddies.
I think this is a good take. Some players have a naturally "scummy" meta and get suspected almost every Day 1. (That just so happens to be often the case for me.) But the thing is, those same players can sometimes also be the hardest players to lim. Anyway, Noraa had a strong early game here imo, and I also think she matches the description I wrote above. That would make her well suited for making it deep into games when she is scum, so bussing her early doesn't seem a very good strategy.
Yeah, I think that’s the only reason she lost in Death Curse so I think our team tried the opposite strategy here, which was decent since it’s counterintuitive to hard townread your buddies. Most scum don’t tend to do that but I have seen it happen once before but it’s rare.
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Post Post #6173 (isolation #42) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:40 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6172, MURDERCAT wrote:
In post 6168, Gloria Cleary wrote:But you also gave reasons for scumreading me, so I wanted to point out why they were not good reasons to scumread me in particular.
Yeah but I was looking through a lens of this slot is scum so it would be totally different if it wasn't a hydra slot
Well, while I’m not obvtown in every game, more often in most larges which I on whole suck at, not. if you want an example of bleeding obvtown me, ISO me in Royalty. I was off the charts obvtown in that, much more so than in Death Curse imo.
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Post Post #6188 (isolation #43) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:14 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6181, Noraa wrote:
In post 6170, Gloria Cleary wrote:There is a joyful happiness that exudes from her posting like summer rain.
I actually think this applies to my town game sometimes. There are specific moment where I will be extremely extremely happy.
:lol: Idk who posted this but twasn’t me. Yeah overly dramatic posts from you like Murder quoted:

VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: . Like that one read fake especially to anyone remotely familiar with your meta. Your town meta otoh you come across extremely natural, questioning and genuinely solvey. Like you said, when you’re scum, you let your nerves influence your posting. I learned that if you’re possibly inclined to do that ever, just don’t post until that goes away. I make my dumbest posts as scum when I get nervous. Because as town, you generally have little to actually be nervous about beyond limming correctly. So irrespective of alignment, excessive nervousness will get you scumread.
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Post Post #6189 (isolation #44) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:19 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6187, Ircher wrote:
Spoiler: Some more thoughts on the setup
I'm spoilering this because I imagine some people don't really want to wade through more setup talk. Anyway, I've thought about it some more, and I still think that's it's reasonably balanced, but not without flaws. It definitely leans a bit on the townsided side of things, but not overtly so.

I think there are two fundamental issues or flaws with this setup. The first is that there are a high number of roles that are "town by claim". The vig, doc, masons, and the Supersaint Enabler (after the Supersaint flips) are all roles that basically aren't likely to be doubted after they claim. This can lead to scum being frustrated even when they kill PR after PR because it essentially means they are boxed into killing these people and not who they want. I think this is a design issue more than a balance issue, but it is true that one has to be careful about having too many of these kinds of roles in a non-role madness game. I had this issue in a game that I tried to run once (see here), but thankfully, my reviewers were well aware of this issue. Notably, that just as adding mafia makes the setup exponentially more scumsided, the same is true for town when adding more confirmed townies. With pseudo-confirmed-town-by-claiming roles, it's a lesser issue but still one to think about. Now, in the setup I linked, it was kind of overt, but the same principle applies; you don't want to give town top many roles that will in essence force the mafia's hand.

Now, the other main flaw with the setup is the Supersaint Enabler. As I stated earlier, I do think the Supersaint changes up the game enough where town probably should have some kind of indicator that it exists. That indicator doesn't necessarily have to be at the beginning of the game, but at the same time, it can't come too late. The main issue here though, and it relates back to my first observation, is that by making the Supersaint Enabler a separate role, it is basically free information for the town, AND likely leads to the role being seen as town, especially when it's known that scum chose their roles. (Why would scum /EVER/ pick Supersaint Enabler as one of their roles, especially with an actual Supersaint?) Thus, the way to solve this (at least imo) is to tie the information to a role that doesn't want to attract a night kill. In this setup, that means either the vig or the doctor should have the info/role tacked on.

So with all that said, I think a more balanced (and less frustrating setup for scum) would probably look something like this:

3x Town Mason + Town 3-Shot Vigilante Supersaint Enabler + Town Roaming Doctor + Town Strong-Willed Disloyal Simple Vanilla Cop + 7x VTs versus Mafia Ascetic Multitasking Alien + Mafia Supersaint + 2x Mafia Goon

Putting the enabler on the vig means that the vig has to weigh outing the info (and attracting the night kill) versus keeping it quiet and having town risk triggering the Supersaint. It also serves as a swing reducer in that if the vig dies early (as most of the game's power is in the masons and the vigilante), scum loses one of their powers as a tradeoff. 3-Shot Vigilante also seems to me like the proper amount; full vigilante would be too much (as it proved here) whereas one or two shot is far too few (as town doesn't have much power elsewhere). 3 or 4 shots seems about the right number; I went with 3 here because the current trend is to lean a bit more scumsided than townsided. The informed townie was dropped because in a setup where there is already a strong mason bloc, it's probably better not to give town too many extra roles (even if they are alignment neutral) just to ensure you don't run into the first issue I mentioned.

One other note: I said it before, but I would like to repeat it: the cigilante played very well here even despite the fact that what has happened might make you think otherwise. A good vigilante shoots players that are liabilities to the town win condition; by shooting two such liabilities this game, we (the town) gained a mislim that would've otherwise been wasted on one of those two. Context is very important in evaluating the quality of a vigilante's shots.


Aside from the above, the scum pt was a fun read, and I enjoyed playing with y'all. Thanks again for modding, Blade Dancer.
+1

Thanks for this. Yeah Solstice’s claim got them confitown read because it’s so beyond obvious that’s never a scum role and no one would ever fakeclaim it as one. That completely ruined our entire supersaint gambit. We never probably would have even been screwed by the Toog vig if it weren’t for that.
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Post Post #6196 (isolation #45) » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:39 am

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6191, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:I think the key swing moment was post dunnstral flip when it was clear Ydrasse would shoot DEB at night.

The scum team should've anticipated a vig of DEB by Ydrasse and shot Ydrasse / Aliened DEB. It would've accomplished three things:

(1) It is demoralizing for the town to not only lose the vig but see DEB alive.

(2) It keeps the game on evens - maintaining the mis-elim oppurtunity on Toogeloo

(3) It keeps Alisae Hydra alive, which went into the night after Dunnstral flip absolutely convinced that Mastina was scum.
Read the scum PT. I tried really hard to make that happen - kill Ydrasse but my team was no, it will look bad if we don’t kill a mason first. \_0_/

If I was scum stump, that’s exactly what would have happened.
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Post Post #6197 (isolation #46) » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:41 am

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6193, Noraa wrote:We were worried ydra would do a hero shot on spiff
No, I was extremely confident she would not shoot Spiff but wasn’t sure she wouldn’t kill us.
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Post Post #6198 (isolation #47) » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:48 am

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 1417, Gloria Cleary wrote:I think we should both jk and kill Ydrasse. Here’s why: she is as certain we’re scum as Hectic was on Bell. There was no jk N2 and Ydrasse kept saying we need to be flipped. She won’t out her reasons for being so certain we’re scum and we need to kill her before she claims vig and that she targeted us N2. Please listen to me FL. I 100% believe I’m not wrong on this.

Spiffeh Allens Ydrasse and DEB NK’s Ydrasse


here or we 100% lose because once she outs us, we’re toast. This is our best chance.

Please listen to me @FL. If she’s vig and not a one shot, we were 100% the N2 target and once she outs this, we autolose. Creature can wait until the next night. We have to do this ir we will 100% lose.
Okay, I obviously misunderstood how alien works but Ydrasse confirmed I was right about her N2 being a failed vigshot on us.
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Post Post #6199 (isolation #48) » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:50 am

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In post 6000, Ydrasse wrote:i wasn’t ever gonna out it there but like i said earlier in this thread as soon as i saw my shot failed i like, just had this feeling it was specifically to protect you guys
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