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[Luca Blight]

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

You’ve got no power over me.

[Luca Blight]

1) On a football (soccer) forum, a long, long time ago. I enjoyed it.

2) I took a long break from Mafia and one day got the urge to play again, and I thought ‘why not?’

3) Erm, just Mafia.

4) Less than ten, often less than five.

5) Probably the same as above, roughly. Maybe slightly more.

6) Hmm, occasionally I guess.

7) Lying for selfish reasons is never ok. I believe any action is ok as long as it comes from the heart, and with love. Can lying ever be done this way? I think so.

8) Not really, unless we’re counting a game like mafia where ‘lies’ are sometimes part of the game.

9) Not very good. If I’m playing a joke in real life, I find it hard to keep a straight face. Online perhaps is a bit easier.

10) depends on the context. I’m naturally introverted so generally online, but I value the heartfelt connection you can share with people face to face.

I’m just curious if Frogster is the same person as Ame?

[Luca Blight]

Extroversion 19
Emotional stability 84
Agreeableness 80
Conscientiousness 12
Intellect/imagination 70

[Luca Blight]

That’s an interesting point about having to put on a facade daily. I think the system we live in requires this of all of us to some extent, but it’s something I’m trying to recognize and change about myself. I want to improve who I am internally, and let that naturally reflect outwards, which is part of the practice that I do.

[Luca Blight]

You’re misquoting him a bit there, though. He said he wouldn’t be satisfied with it right now as it’s so early, but he likes the idea of it and stated his own top TR, so I don’t think it’s questionable to then push ahead towards the possibility of a townbloc.

I’m busy on weekends so I’ll get further into this game from Tomorrow.

[Luca Blight]

My son’s school is closed due to a new covid outbreak until 4th Jan so my time will be limited in the meantime. I’ll have to juggle work and taking care of him, so apologies in advance for any periods of inactivity.

Still catching up. So far at the start of page 7 I’m leaning Town on Gamma, NPOM, Grendel and Galron. I’ll post my thoughts in more detail shortly.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Amélie

This is my strongest suspicion at the moment.

134 135 137 don't really add much to the situation.

138 is another example of saying something without really saying anything. It's the kind of thing I could see scum saying just for content's sake. I also agree with Gamma's 142 in response to this.

139 I completely disagree with her reads here, and it generally seems a lazy attempt at a solve to link all the supposed 'townbloc' as being the scum team.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Amélie

This is my strongest suspicion at the moment.

134 135 137 don't really add much to the situation.

138 is another example of saying something without really saying anything. It's the kind of thing I could see scum saying just for content's sake. I also agree with Gamma's 142 in response to this.

139 I completely disagree with her reads here, and it generally seems a lazy attempt at a solve to link all the supposed 'townbloc' as being the scum team.

For curiosities sake i would also like to hear what you think of Trendal, and Mommrangal.

-/-/-/-/-

Its gotten late on my end. Seeya tomarrow

I'm looking forward to bug Spray, and hopefully gambling pigs catch up.

I don't really have any read on Trendall. I'm not sure why, but I got a slight Town ping for how he was at first on board with the personality test and later turned against it. Perhaps as scum it would be easier to just stick to the chosen narrative, but overall not much to go on really.

Momrangal has a confident tone which makes me feel as though she might be Town, but still not a strong read as of yet.

Just looking through her posts now:

132 I don't really agree with her reply to Frogs here, that scum wouldn't soft a bus this early on, and I don't really think it's an important thing to highlight for discussion at this stage anyway.

188 I found it interesting how she used the word 'insulting' here, as though she had herself taken offence to what Frogster said. In the context of 'scum haven't posted much as they don't know how to lie', only scum would take offence to that. I actually agree with the point she is making here as I also have little time for Mafia on weekends, but an interesting choice of words on a subconscious level, perhaps. I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into that, but it's just something that caught my attention.

190 Says 'why only Trendall' in his defence when others have been inactive, which is far enough, but this kind of stance isn't doing anything to advance the game forwards, and she herself isn't voting or pushing anyone yet.

So with all this considered, I have her just below the null line.

[Luca Blight]

Not sure that’s technically correct; If most of the bloc were scum, would they not like to earn that credence while also eliminating a townread player? It enters the realms of pure WIFOM where you can’t really assume anything with certainty.

[Luca Blight]

Interesting that frog is there too for you but okay. I personally think it’s great.

I think I can townread this even if only a little bit. This was something that stuck out to me.

I'm not really sure what you're townreading here, can you explain it a little more?

[Luca Blight]

Can I see the Trendall read as well?

I'm not sure what you mean; I gave my (albeit limited) read on Trendall in that post.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

trying to form a town bloc this early when most reads are made purely on gut and most posters aren't even in the double digits in terms of post count is uh

pretty terrible and i'm very wary of the people pushing it because it could very easily be scum trying to form early pockets so they have direct or indirect control of the game.

Grendel saying "I'd probably be unhappy with a town core" in 124 but then going off and asking for TR's in 131 especially strikes me so:

VOTE: Grendel

I like the grendel vote.
Add OutWorldER and Galron to my town reads.

i generally think town blocs are an EoD/mid-late game thing and I don't like to people attempting to form them super early in the day because it leaves a lot of room for error and when done wrong it gives scum good ability to warlock the game

it's part of why I generally don't form a lot of TR's early in the game

regardless I did misread Grendel there so

UNVOTE:

mostly just biding my time at the moment, don't have a super good place to park my vote.

remove townread. you did misread. I liked the vote. didn't check the logic.

You'd automatically hand out a TR to someone who votes your scumread without even checking their reasoning?

I could maybe understand this in a scenario where you have a very strong reason to believe someone is scum, but this doesn't seem to be the case at all with your Grendel SR.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

Trendell looking bad. All posts are about RQS, or are not game related.

Looks like snugg scum sliding by in the early game

Mongeral, Luca, and Ameile aslo fall into the same boat of sliding through early game as Trendal. Thier only content being about RQS. They obviously cant all be scum, but i would be surprized if it contained nothing but town.

-/-/-/-

Galroen looks ok, he can be town.

Lunar Martian is non-ai RVS and nothing else.

-/-/-/-/-

I always get confused between Galron and Grendel

We both joined this game just to confuse you with our similar sounding names. It was allllll part of the plan!

I personally hate this. It feels to me like you're sorting based on post count whereas that is definitely not how this game works.

Prioritizing the players with little content early-on isn't a bad strategy, and certainly isn't a reason for a strong scumread which Amélie is portraying herself to have.

[Luca Blight]

@Mod

: Can we please get a prod on Pig?

[Luca Blight]

Well Bugs said they'd catch up Today (Tuesday) so I'm waiting to see what they have to offer.

I haven't played with Bugs for a while but I've had success reading them previously.

[Luca Blight]

Possibly, as I did catch them as scum in a previous game almost entirely based on their meta being so different to their town game.

I took a break from Mafia of about 7/8 months, however, so it's possible they could have improved their scum game in that time or generally changed their meta so we'll see.

[Luca Blight]

They're normally pretty active as both alignments, from what I remember.

[Luca Blight]

Do you have any other reads/thoughts, Lunar?

[Luca Blight]

My gut is telling me this is scum!Bugs.

I’ll reflect on it a little more.

[Luca Blight]

I saw two things that are pretty weak but do still worry me. Your entry trying to justify your absence felt off, and your status update about having started eating felt frivolous and worried about the perception of you beyond what feels normal rn
Are you a self-conscious person?

This sums up part of what I’m feeling.

I don’t like to give away tells, but Scum!Bugs is more jokey and posts more fluff, and goes all in on someone being Town like they did with Grendel.

They joke as Town as well, but generally they go in pretty hard and have an intensity to their game I’m not seeing here.

[Luca Blight]

Why?

[Luca Blight]

I'm not sold on Amelie but for the townblock...

VOTE: bugspray

disliking this more and more.

I am about to answer all of Luca blight's question but their focus on me is unnatural putting them into my scum reads..

How is it unnatural? You’re one of my biggest SR’s so of course I’m going to focus on you more.

Interesting that frog is there too for you but okay. I personally think it’s great.

I think I can townread this even if only a little bit. This was something that stuck out to me.

I'm not really sure what you're townreading here, can you explain it a little more?

I had the same thought process. I tend to think similar thought processes are my alignment. There's certain thoughts that I think can't be faked when they aren't saying it for people to agree but rather just because they think it..

You haven’t really had the same thought process, though, as you SR NPOM whereas Gamma TR’s them and wants to townbloc with them, while you are against the townbloc. Gamma has simply noticed a pretty obvious detail (that NPOM was arguing against Frogster but wanted them in the townbloc) and you’ve used that to flip your read, which doesn’t seem like a very genuine progression.

Can I see the Trendall read as well?

I'm not sure what you mean; I gave my (albeit limited) read on Trendall in that post.

Remind me what the read was? Townread or scumread?
.

At the time of writing Trendall was null-Town.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

trying to form a town bloc this early when most reads are made purely on gut and most posters aren't even in the double digits in terms of post count is uh

pretty terrible and i'm very wary of the people pushing it because it could very easily be scum trying to form early pockets so they have direct or indirect control of the game.

Grendel saying "I'd probably be unhappy with a town core" in 124 but then going off and asking for TR's in 131 especially strikes me so:

VOTE: Grendel

I like the grendel vote.
Add OutWorldER and Galron to my town reads.

i generally think town blocs are an EoD/mid-late game thing and I don't like to people attempting to form them super early in the day because it leaves a lot of room for error and when done wrong it gives scum good ability to warlock the game

it's part of why I generally don't form a lot of TR's early in the game

regardless I did misread Grendel there so

UNVOTE:

mostly just biding my time at the moment, don't have a super good place to park my vote.

remove townread. you did misread. I liked the vote. didn't check the logic.

You'd automatically hand out a TR to someone who votes your scumread without even checking their reasoning?

I could maybe understand this in a scenario where you have a very strong reason to believe someone is scum, but this doesn't seem to be the case at all with your Grendel SR.

You're telling me it's a bad strategy. Ok but so?
I'm pretty new to mafia with 1 game here and 2 games elsewhere.

Spoiler:

Trendell looking bad. All posts are about RQS, or are not game related.

Looks like snugg scum sliding by in the early game

Mongeral, Luca, and Ameile aslo fall into the same boat of sliding through early game as Trendal. Thier only content being about RQS. They obviously cant all be scum, but i would be surprized if it contained nothing but town.

-/-/-/-

Galroen looks ok, he can be town.

Lunar Martian is non-ai RVS and nothing else.

-/-/-/-/-

I always get confused between Galron and Grendel

We both joined this game just to confuse you with our similar sounding names. It was allllll part of the plan!

I personally hate this. It feels to me like you're sorting based on post count whereas that is definitely not how this game works.

Prioritizing the players with little content early-on isn't a bad strategy, and certainly isn't a reason for a strong scumread which Amélie is portraying herself to have.

Dont misrep me. My scum read is not based on that but rather that I think grendall is informed and their tone and the way they approach things doesn't feel right.
.

I’m not questioning your strategy, I’m questioning whether you’re forming reads in a natural way. Everyone has different styles and you are newer so it might just be how you do things, but it struck me as odd.

I didn’t misrep you? I literally went by what you said in that post.

[Luca Blight]

Possibly, as I did catch them as scum in a previous game almost entirely based on their meta being so different to their town game.

I took a break from Mafia of about 7/8 months, however, so it's possible they could have improved their scum game in that time or generally changed their meta so we'll see.

I'd like to mention that one of the few times Luca is not talking about only me, it's because his scum buddy(I'm assuming Grendall is his scum buddy) is asking him questions about someone else.
.

Now this actually is a misrep.

Not only are your exaggerating how much I’m talking about you (as though it’s wrong to focus on your SR anyway) but it was me who initiated that conversation.

And why would you assume I’m scum with Grendel? Based on what exactly?

[Luca Blight]

grendel is town as fuck
like 262 is just so reasonable
he does some questioning with a pagetop that's worded in such an effective way. he asks questions that would cearly provoke different asnwers from town or scum and his paranoia is super healthy

also 162 implies that they are definitely neighbors or maybe masons. i don't think scum would make the kind of associative posts they are

apparently i thought grendel looked really town on page 7

amelie is scummy

i think galron's posting is towning especailly 101

VOTE: amelie

This is extremely weak.

My gut is telling me this is scum!Bugs.

I’ll reflect on it a little more.

The second time Luca comes in again not talking about me is when there are people already saying bugs is scum.
I think I can confidently say Luca is scum and bugspray is town.
I have no other way to read bugspray because they just look extremely scummy in everything they say.

So Bugs’ post was ‘extremely weak’, but because others have suspected Bugs before I SR them, I must be scum and they must be Town?

You’re entirely ignoring the reasoning I gave, which Bugs themselves haven’t even denied. Not only that, but others have suspected you before Bugs SR you, so how does the same not apply to them? In terms of timing, I live in a different time zone to everyone on here atm so I’m just about never on when others are, that’s just the way it is.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Bugs

I feel more confident about this atm. I really dislike Amélie‘s reads and the way she formulates them, but it could be a clash of play styles more than anything. She reminds me of the kind of player I’d tunnel and end up mislynching in the past.

[Luca Blight]

I read one of Amélie's posts and just sort of found it concerning at face value but it reads a lot like newb!town

Which post were you referring to?

[Luca Blight]

I could see Amelie and Bugs as partners.

Yes, the thought did cross my mind it could be something like Amelie/Bugs/Lunar, which would explain Amelie’s behavior this game; the need to desperately throw a spanner in the works of then townbloc and generally muddy the waters. Otherwise I kind of agree with Grendel’s view; she’s making a rod for her own back.

[Luca Blight]

I think this page says either Gamma or Luca is Mafia.

This comment struck me as an attempt to divert the attention away from Bugs and create paranoia over their wagon.

[Luca Blight]

Can anyone spot the irony here?

How is it unnatural? You’re one of my biggest SR’s so of course I’m going to focus on you more.

You have a 2013 join date. I think you should know why focusing on one person when their is plenty of other content is weird. Even if I am a scum read, this treatment is weird.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Bugs

I feel more confident about this atm. I really dislike Amélie‘s reads and the way she formulates them, but it could be a clash of play styles more than anything. She reminds me of the kind of player I’d tunnel and end up mislynching in the past.

VOTE: Luca Blight

[Luca Blight]

Can anyone spot the irony here?

You unvoted because people were voicing an Amélie town perspective. There is no irony here and just because your terrible vote on me came off doesn't mean anything.

No-one was saying you were Town before my unvote, apart from Bugs who said you might be ‘newbtown’, but they’re still voting you and are most likely scum themselves anyway.

The irony is that you say it’s weird how I’m focusing only on you, and then in your very next post vote me for changing my vote to someone else.

[Luca Blight]

This NPOM wagon is awful.

[Luca Blight]

Lunar, you never explained why Gamma or I are scum based on the other page?

[Luca Blight]

I’m more confident on Bugs/Lunar being partners atm.

[Luca Blight]

Lunar, you never explained why Gamma or I are scum based on the other page?

[Luca Blight]

The NPOM wagon is awful mainly because of who’s on it, Outworld. I’d be amazed if there wasn’t scum on that wagon.

I don’t think it’s justified and it feels like a deliberate counter-wagon to Bugs’.

[Luca Blight]

That’s not true. I’ve seen scum move together plenty of times D1.

It’s common sense that if people generally believe scum wouldn’t move together D1, then scum would feel it’s quite safe to do so.

[Luca Blight]

No.

[Luca Blight]

There’s no reason or analysis behind any of your points.

What happened to Gamma or I being scum?

Why do you prefer a Trendall elim to Bugs? Do you TR Bugs?

[Luca Blight]

I think it’s time to start consolidating and compromising.

I prefer a Bugs elim but would be willing to compromise on Lunar. I’m not willing to eliminate anyone else today.

@Grendel, Momrangal

: I’m particularly looking at you two as I don’t see Trendall being eliminated today, nor do I think they should be ahead of Bugs/Lunar. Could you please choose between one of these wagons?

[Luca Blight]

I think it’s time to start consolidating and compromising.

I prefer a Bugs elim but would be willing to compromise on Lunar. I’m not willing to eliminate anyone else today.

@Grendel, Momrangal

: I’m particularly looking at you two as I don’t see Trendall being eliminated today, nor do I think they should be ahead of Bugs/Lunar. Could you please choose between one of these wagons?

This post is really bad. I'd be OK with voting Luca based off this post.

Is this just pure OMGUS or do you have any actual reasoning? I keep having to ask you to explain your takes.

[Luca Blight]

There’s no reason or analysis behind any of your points.

What happened to Gamma or I being scum?

Why do you prefer a Trendall elim to Bugs? Do you TR Bugs?

I thought either you or Gamma was scum based on the way you both were trying to paint bugspray as scum for really odd reasons. Now I'm thinking you are scum and just latching onto Gamma's strange push.

I don't really know if bugs is Town, but I don't think Trendall is aorn. I still don't understand why people are voting bugs and no one has even attempted to explain it afaict.

Your last line is ironic. I’ve explained my Bugs SR way more than you’ve explained anything this game.

I said I’ve had success reading Bugs as both alignments in the past, and I can see based on their behavior this game, and for the reasons I outlined, that they are clearly scum!Bugs this game. Bugs themselves didn’t challenge my reasoning regarding this, so who are you to imply it isn’t valid?

It seems to me that all your reads have an agenda behind them; you’re not sorting in a natural way.

[Luca Blight]

If I were a betting person my guess would be 4 out of 5 are town.

I’m just curious, who in the townbloc do you think is most likely to be scum?

[Luca Blight]

We have 6 days? Why are we compromising?

We have a few popular wagons, it’s time for people to make meaningful decisions. There’s no point sitting on a Trendall wagon that’s never going going anywhere, unless you or Grendel feel like really going to work on it which doesn’t seem forthcoming. Just because we have 6 days doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have a sense of urgency about what we’re doing.

[Luca Blight]

This NPOM wagon is awful.

I agree with this, but I'm curious to why you think trendall isn't getting lynched. There are multiple people who have expressed that slot being likely scum and next to OWER.

There are also multiple slots expressing concern over OWER, but instead the consensus seems to be nerfing the loudest voice in the game. I'm not joining the NPOM wagon, and I could drop a vote on either but I would much rather drop scum over town.

Because no-one is particularly pushing the Trendall wagon, and there are three more popular wagons on the table, two of which I think are pretty obviously better eliminations. I’m perhaps biased about Bugs due to meta, but I don’t get why you’d want Trendall eliminated over Lunar who just seems objectively scummy; just popping in every now and then, steering things in a certain direction with no follow-up, no train of thought, no explanation and while repeatedly avoiding questions.

[Luca Blight]

Gamma, Frog, Grendel, amelie all expressed concerns over Trendall. Should they all move their vote there, he'll be at L-2

Gamma, NPOM, bug, Grendel, Luca I recall all had things to say about OWER. All votes being moved there puts him at L-1

So...?

Ifs and buts. These votes aren’t magically going to happen; I could make the same case that most of these players have expressed doubts about either Bugs/Lunar, who are both a lot closer to elimination.

[Luca Blight]

Ok, I was just making sure that the claim was bs like I thought it was.

The only people that have an issue with it are those outside the block.

Who are the five people in it?

Me
Galron
Grendal
Frog
Gamma

Frog is still pushing you as scum here, but I do agree. The pushes against you are not only crappy as fuck but they are targeted at the largest voice within the block and someone who, if left alive could win us the game

I’m surprised you don’t think the intensity of the NPOM wagon could be due to the fact that scum have been heavily wagoned themselves. To me it looks like a deliberate counter-wagon.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: OWER

well, ok. Your alignment should be telling after this

So you’d rather vote Outworld with your biggest SR rather than Bugs/Lunar?

What am I missing here? Why is Outworld a better elimination than Bugs/Lunar, and how do you read them?

[Luca Blight]

Looking at partner equities on D1...that’s a good way to look busy without doing anything meaningful.

This is so far from Bugs’ Town game, and Bugs knows I know it.

.

[Luca Blight]

im very scared of Luca because I can't read him and remember him rolling scum one time and believing he looked exactly like town!Luca and trying to elim me at any time is usually not very controversial (meta me if you're into that) and neither is wanting to elim lunar which makes me very

npim here is reminding me increasingly of town!formerfish

I’ve hard townread you every time you’ve been Town, including in the game I was scum, because when you’re Town you’re obviously Town. The only time I’ve previously SR you was when you were indeed scum, and you played in the same way you’re doing here.

[Luca Blight]

And note that 462 is the only time Bugs has mentioned Lunar at all this game, and it’s to make a light defence of them.

Consider Bugs’ position here; Lunar’s wagon is competing with their own, and yet Bugs seems reluctant to even acknowledge it despite seemingly having doubts over NPOM being scum. This suggests some agenda; the two that make the most sense being 1) they are partners, 2) Bugs doesn’t want to turn a friend into a foe. I’m leaning towards the former possibility.

[Luca Blight]

I read one of Amélie's posts and just sort of found it concerning at face value but it reads a lot like newb!town

I just realised you avoided my question about this.

What post of Amelie’s are you talking about here?

[Luca Blight]

I think the above quote about Amelie was Bugs’ way of paving their exit from that wagon. It was an opinion that had already been stated by others, and I feel as though if Bugs were genuine they would have just quoted the post they were talking about, given how apparently significant it was in changing their read on Amelie. It just feels fabricated, but we’ll see what Bugs has to say about it.

Bugs hadn’t said anything negative about NPOM at this point, but when the NPOM wagon gained momentum my immediate thought was ‘it’s only a matter of time before Bugs jumps on this’, and sure enough:

I say this because Amelie and Bugs have practically nothing to say about each other.

this is a blatant misrep I've had plenty of things to say about her I'm even on her wagon although taking a closer look even if she's saying nonsense I don't see it coming from newb!scum in terms of the apparent effort
VOTE: npom
Also the way you quoted gamma's post about how Amélie is jealous of the townbloc and scum is trying to push it's way in seems to me a lot like scum projecting from insure the "townbloc" in order to not be suspected

The first point is so weak that it looks just like an excuse to hop on the wagon. Even if NPOM wasn’t quite correct in what he said, it doesn’t make him scum; why not consider he might have simply been mistaken?

The second part is also weak because it’s baseless. It’s a possibility Bugs could be right, perhaps, but there’s literally nothing to say that’s the case. It’s just as possible NPOM is correct in saying Amelie is jealous of the townbloc. Scum would at least have a clear motive in undermining a townbloc, if it’s pure.

[Luca Blight]

Not only that, but Bugs then realized they were wrong and NPOM didn’t actually quote Gamma’s point about Amelie and the townbloc, and yet they just are like ‘I misremembered but....that’s four votes now’.

A big part of your foundation for SR’ing NPOM was based on a misremembering, so surely the natural thing to do here would be to step back and reassess?

. i typically find scum more likely to lurk after submitting responses to the questions until somebody else gets the game out of the "random" phase. Usally because they both dont know how to move out of that stage naturally, and dont have the motivation to try.

I think this is a good evaluation of the idea behind it, at least for the short term “reading people directly off of responses” tactic

Btw about the activity read discussion, I think any scumteam worth their salt would have someone trying to get their foot in the door if the {Gamma, Grendel, Galron, NPOM, frogster} set is all-town
Amelie’s attack on the block kinda feels that way.

Another good reason to town block active players is that if one of them is night killed then that would give credence that most of them are town.

In effect it limits scums options

Huh looks like I misremembered him quoting this gamma post but

My vote puts npom at 4 votes

Also, why isn’t Bugs suspecting Gamma for the same reasoning? They mistakenly SR NPOM for quoting Gamma’s point about Amelie possibly trying to get their foot in the door of the townbloc, so why would you not suspect Gamma for actually making the point?

[Luca Blight]

There’s no reason or analysis behind any of your points.

What happened to Gamma or I being scum?

Why do you prefer a Trendall elim to Bugs? Do you TR Bugs?

I thought either you or Gamma was scum based on the way you both were trying to paint bugspray as scum for really odd reasons. Now I'm thinking you are scum and just latching onto Gamma's strange push.

I don't really know if bugs is Town, but I don't think Trendall is aorn. I still don't understand why people are voting bugs and no one has even attempted to explain it afaict.

Your last line is ironic. I’ve explained my Bugs SR way more than you’ve explained anything this game.

I said I’ve had success reading Bugs as both alignments in the past, and I can see based on their behavior this game, and for the reasons I outlined, that they are clearly scum!Bugs this game. Bugs themselves didn’t challenge my reasoning regarding this, so who are you to imply it isn’t valid?

It seems to me that all your reads have an agenda behind them; you’re not sorting in a natural way.

"I'm not scum. You are!"
My scum read on Luca definitely stands.

That’s a very disingenuous way of portraying it. Have you even read the context you just quoted?

[Luca Blight]

Town: Frogsterking, Galron, bugspray, NoPowerOverMe
Null: OutWorldER, Lunar Martian, Trendall, AGamblingPig, Grendel,
Scum: Gamma Emerald, Luca Blight, Momrangal

I'm actually considering lifting Luca Blight because of his interactions with my scum reads being a good look but I'm going to hold off on that for a bit.

And how would that affect your Bugs read? Isn’t your Bugs townread based entirely on me being scum?

[Luca Blight]

This NPOM wagon is awful.

I agree with this, but I'm curious to why you think trendall isn't getting lynched. There are multiple people who have expressed that slot being likely scum and next to OWER.

There are also multiple slots expressing concern over OWER, but instead the consensus seems to be nerfing the loudest voice in the game. I'm not joining the NPOM wagon, and I could drop a vote on either but I would much rather drop scum over town.

Because no-one is particularly pushing the Trendall wagon, and there are three more popular wagons on the table, two of which I think are pretty obviously better eliminations. I’m perhaps biased about Bugs due to meta, but I don’t get why you’d want Trendall eliminated over Lunar who just seems objectively scummy; just popping in every now and then, steering things in a certain direction with no follow-up, no train of thought, no explanation and while repeatedly avoiding questions.

Since you know me better than anyone else in this game you should know that that's not because I'm mafia, but just because I've been busy. The fact that you're trying to paint it as me being Mafia tells me you're being disingenuous.

VOTE: Luca

I’m not suspecting you for your activity, but for the content of your posts.

[Luca Blight]

im very scared of Luca because I can't read him and remember him rolling scum one time and believing he looked exactly like town!Luca and trying to elim me at any time is usually not very controversial (meta me if you're into that) and neither is wanting to elim lunar which makes me very

npim here is reminding me increasingly of town!formerfish

I’ve hard townread you every time you’ve been Town, including in the game I was scum, because when you’re Town you’re obviously Town. The only time I’ve previously SR you was when you were indeed scum, and you played in the same way you’re doing here.

Can you think of any other explanations for bugs behavior this game other than a scum flip?

No, they’ve displayed nothing of their Town behavior this game, and their reaction to my push feels as though they don’t quite know how to react to it, as though they know they’ve been caught.

I’ve had a lot of success meta reading certain players this way in the past. I was wrong on one occasion, although that was a bit of a unique situation.

[Luca Blight]

I would say that particular post could come from either alignment. I don’t really get their point about NPOM and Galron there, tbh.

[Luca Blight]

....I was talking about Bugs, not you.

I’m not even voting for you.

[Luca Blight]

@Datisi

: I think Momrangal voted for Outworld.

thank you, fixed -D

[Luca Blight]

That vote came out of nowhere, possibly a late bus attempt.

Lunar should claim in their next post.

[Luca Blight]

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

That’s a bit hard when you repeatedly avoid questions.

What are you reads?

[Luca Blight]

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

That’s a bit hard when you repeatedly avoid questions.

What are you reads?

I've shared my thoughts. If you aren't even going to bother reading what I write we aren't going to get very far.

And if you’re not gonna bother to engage with me about your thoughts then what do you expect me (or anyone else who SR’s you) to do here exactly?

You’re crying woe is me but not pushing in any direction. Have any of your reads changed recently? How do you feel about a Bugs elim?

[Luca Blight]

Right....you complain that people are scumreading you for no reason and no-one is talking to you, but I’ve clearly tried to engage with you and you’re not interested in talking to me at all.

Intent to hammer, claim your role please.

[Luca Blight]

Right....you complain that people are scumreading you for no reason and no-one is talking to you, but I’ve clearly tried to engage with you and you’re not interested in talking to me at all.

Intent to hammer, claim your role please.

Except you really haven't. You haven't even convinced me that you're reading anything I say.

That’s weird, given I’ve directly commented on most of your posts this game.

I’ll give you one more chance to claim.

[Luca Blight]

bugspray - Not sure, no reason to kill them.

What makes you feel this way?

I don't see any reason to vote there and think the people voting there are as opportunistic as the people voting me. It's popular because it's trendy, and it's trendy because it's popular.

So how is Bugs not opportunistic for voting you?

[Luca Blight]

How can I follow up on questions I ask you when you flat out refuse to answer?

And the questions you repeatedly avoided earlier (like about me or Gamma being scum) I did follow up on.

[Luca Blight]

And I’ve fully explained why I think Bugs is scum but you haven’t engaged any of those reasons. You just say you don’t see why they are being SR even though I’ve clearly explained it.

[Luca Blight]

How can I follow up on questions I ask you when you flat out refuse to answer?

And the questions you repeatedly avoided earlier (like about me or Gamma being scum) I did follow up on.

Point to a question you asked, and a place where I attempted to answer it. Then explain why my answer is insufficient. Then I'll answer more. I don't think I've ignored any questions.

I’ve done all of this already. I just gave the example of you SR’ing me or Gamma which you avoided for ages, and I explained why your eventual answer was insufficient.

I’ll give you ten minutes to claim, and then I’m hammering.

[Luca Blight]

And I’ve fully explained why I think Bugs is scum but you haven’t engaged any of those reasons. You just say you don’t see why they are being SR even though I’ve clearly explained it.

You said your bugs read is based on meta. I don't really have access to that, so I don't see why that should be particularly compelling. I think you're Mafia anyway, so the fact that you think someone is Mafia doesn't mean much to me.

It’s not only based on meta, I have given plenty of reasons why they’re scummy in this game.

Clearly you’re the one who isn’t reading my posts.

[Luca Blight]

Lunas lack of town hunting is pinging me big time.

I realize they aren't all Mafia. But why is it an issue that I don't have exactly the right number of people pinged as Mafia on Day 1?

It's an issue that your more interested in discrediting your wagon than finding town or scum.

Well my hand has been forced. People are attacking me, so everyone is talking about whether I'm Mafia. I don't see how I can really be expected to talk about why other people are Mafia when every post I make one person or another pops up to say I'm ignoring a question. You're being very slimy right now.

You’ve had the whole game to talk about why others are scum, it’s only now that you’ve come under heavy fire. You’ve had to be lead, or even dragged, into sharing your thoughts, and initially you outright refused to share them. Literally the only reason it’s reached this stage is because of your ridiculous attitude that ‘no-one is talking to me’ and then when someone tries to ask you questions you refuse to answer them.

[Luca Blight]

How am i tunneling Lunar when I’ve been literally pushing Bugs’ lynch for most of the day?

[Luca Blight]

Elimination, sorry.

[Luca Blight]

And I’ve given Lunar every chance to engage with me, but when they just outright refuse to answer my questions while at the same time moaning that no-one is talking to them, then there’s nothing more I can do.

[Luca Blight]

I still think Bugs is more likely scum of the two, but I still also believe they could well be partners.

[Luca Blight]

And I’ve given Lunar every chance to engage with me, but when they just outright refuse to answer my questions while at the same time moaning that no-one is talking to them, then there’s nothing more I can do.

Well I do respond to your posts. And I tell you I've already answered your questions. And I tell you to point to things I haven't answered well enough. And rather than pointing to a specific case, you just say "I already did."

I did point to a specific case; the one about me or Gamma being scum.

Please read my points on Bugs, as you seem to think I only SR them due to meta.

[Luca Blight]

I still think Bugs is more likely scum of the two, but I still also believe they could well be partners.

If you think bugs is more likely Mafia, why aren't you voting for bugs?

I am voting for Bugs

Have you even been following this game?

[Luca Blight]

And I’ve given Lunar every chance to engage with me, but when they just outright refuse to answer my questions while at the same time moaning that no-one is talking to them, then there’s nothing more I can do.

Well I do respond to your posts. And I tell you I've already answered your questions. And I tell you to point to things I haven't answered well enough. And rather than pointing to a specific case, you just say "I already did."

I did point to a specific case; the one about me or Gamma being scum.

Please read my points on Bugs, as you seem to think I only SR them due to meta.

I responded to the thing about either you or Gamma being scum. I decided that it's probably you and not Gamma.
And I don't really care much about your opinion on bugs, since I think you're Mafia. As I said.

I didn’t say you didn’t answer it.....I had to prod you for it, but yes you answered it. Your answer wasn’t sufficient, which is literally what we’re talking about right now.

You say I haven’t explained why Bugs is scum apart from meta. I point out this isn’t the cause and ask you to read my other points on Bugs, then you say they don’t matter as you scumread me

I give up. I might as well be talking to a brick wall.

[Luca Blight]

i feel v ignored lol

I’ll look over your points when the dust has settled on this.

I haven’t had time to meditate recently and am getting riled up easily as a result. I’ll take a break, apologies for this 1v1 I’ve contributed to.

[Luca Blight]

I think of the players active in this engagement Nopower actually looks worse then the rest via him negging Lunar from the sidling's. I dont think its beyond his town game to do something like this as he loves messing with people and giving out lots of witty comebacks as a signiture part of his style. (I wanted to do a trademark symbol over "witty comebacks" but idk how lol)

Gamma looks pretty good in his approtch to all this and i feel he came to a similar conclusion I had come to before I fully came to it.

Luca looks frustrated. I think the question is if its more liekly to come from town or scum. I WANT to say it comes from town but im not sure yet. I need to think more on it. (Hence me asking)

Lunar Im still sorting rn

It would be great if all are town but idk just.

Oh so I see we view things the same way then.

I think I'd like to go for Trendall or OutWorldER. Failing that, NoPower or Frog.

VOTE: Trendall

Does this mean you've changed your read on me?

[Luca Blight]

I don't believe you answered this, Lunar:

bugspray - Not sure, no reason to kill them.

What makes you feel this way?

I don't see any reason to vote there and think the people voting there are as opportunistic as the people voting me. It's popular because it's trendy, and it's trendy because it's popular.

So how is Bugs not opportunistic for voting you?

You say the people voting Bugs are as opportunistic as the people voting you, but Bugs is voting you, so aren't they also opportunistic?

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler: bugs on Lunar

im very scared of Luca because I can't read him and remember him rolling scum one time and believing he looked exactly like town!Luca and trying to elim me at any time is usually not very controversial (meta me if you're into that) and neither is wanting to elim lunar which makes me very

npim here is reminding me increasingly of town!formerfish

sounds good VOTE: lunar martian
that's l-1

That vote came out of nowhere, possibly a late bus attempt.

Lunar should claim in their next post.

have you seen lunar's iso?

calling my previous mention of lunar in 462 a strong tr is real reachy. a lot of the time i just have difficulty reading slots and pretend they don't exist and up until recently for me that was lunar

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

hey lunar what's your role?

lunar martian are you spiteful?

Hey lunar nopom gave intent can you claim now or should he just hammer?

Bugs never mentioned Lunar at all until page 19, where they say pushing Lunar isn't controversial. This is pretty odd given Bugs was the leading wagon at this point, while Lunar was joint second wagon, so you'd think Town!Bugs would have some curiosity at least over this slot. Lunar had made some light defences of Bugs by this point: 399, 436, 460 which is a bit of a stronger defence.

Bugs then seems to offer another light defence of Lunar in 547, before cashing in at 555 after Gamma put Lunar to L-2. Bugs then goes really into it in their subsequent posts, egging on the wagon and seeming to taunt Lunar, which is really contrary to their previous stance where they were holding their cards close to their chest with regards to Lunar.

Lunar then comes back in and complains about people not talking to them etc, but doesn't address Bugs' vote or interact with them, and instead maintains the same stance they had previously - that there's no reason to SR Bugs. Lunar calls the people voting them and Bugs 'opportunistic', but doesn't address the fact that Bugs is voting Lunar themselves. During my interaction with Lunar I ask them to comment on my points against Bugs; Lunar says it's only based on meta which isn't enough for them. When I point out most of my points against Bugs are not meta related, Lunar moves the goalposts by saying 'I SR you so I don't care about your points'.

This is some really weird interaction, and to me most makes sense from a S/S perspective. Bugs held off voting Lunar as long as possible until it seemed Lunar was a goner (or at least one of Lunar/Bugs was) and then they went full bus mode. Lunar entered the thread full of complaints but very unwilling to give their reads and opinions, which had to be dragged out of them. Posts like 586 and 594 seem like Lunar just wants to keep associative information to a minimum by maintaining the same stances they had earlier. This is a common strategy that scum who are about to die use, so there's limited information for D2. Normally town here are much more open about their thoughts, normally willing to shout them from the rooftops, so I don't think this was Town behavior from Lunar here.

I'll look at Lunar's meta to see if it matches up with their play in this game.

[Luca Blight]

I've just glanced through Lunar's one completed game, where they were VT, and their play is far superior to this game, despite it being their first game.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=35109

They actively scum-hunted and openly shared reasoning and reads. The only similarity I can see is that they were also dismissive of pushes against them. I have limited time but I'll try and dig up some examples and comparisons.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler: Lunar's meta

Also he's never getting eliminated is he so he doesn't even has to sacrifice himself at all necessarily.

I really dislike this push from trendall on the claimed doctor. The doctor claim will be tested at night, and trendall should know better as an SE.
VOTE: trendall

I see rock's posts as townie. I think it's a bit melodramatic for clidd to get so frustrated and claim, and for rock to say "just kill me"... I don't think either of them was the most voted person at the time they did that.

A doctor cannot target themselves, so that can't self-protect, I just looked this up on the wiki.

And clidd, the doctor would know that. Hence clidd is lying. The question is: why?

VOTE: clidd

Nah clidd's my final vote today.

That said, this attitude is awful and does actually make it hard to kill anyone. Can people get over themselves and try to find scum rather than get themselves killed because they feel bad that they made a mistake?

I will not be voting clidd or trendall today.

I'm pretty confident with a Lunar elimination.

And I'm pretty confident that you aren't all that smart.

I'm pretty confident that the following people are town:
me, trendall, clidd (you aren't half as smart as you think you are), ben dover (you are very overconfident and slip into confirmation bias very easily), Chumbo.
That leaves:
Lavar, Rockhopper, Lone, BM.

Out of those four, I'd pick BM and Lone to be the most likely scum. BM is being far too quiet. Didn't someone say BM normally posts a lot more?

VOTE: BM

My solve right now would be Lone and BM.

OK let me address it. This is a really dumb wagon. The case on me is pathetic, there's nothing for me to even defend. Ben you say my read on you changed a lot, but when you criticized me for that you even admitted that you had been scummy. There's one scum on my wagon and 4 dumb townies. Lone is almost certainly scum here.

What? When was that? I gotta reread.

Lone is not scum. Have you seen his recent posts?

Pedit: :thonk: what is your reason for BM again?

BM isn't posting after repeatedly promising to be active. When BM gets called out he shows up and posts just enough that everyone gives him a pass. Also Lone's "welp" post is super scummy. It's scum trying to look like a townie who feels bad. Just kill me, then tomorrow when the cop has no result and the doctor is dead and you continue to self destruct with terrible reads I'll be laughing in the graveyard. Ben you are way overconfident and it seems like your reads are quite bad. No one is re-evaluating. Look at Lone's justification for voting me (spoiler alert: there's no justification other than straight up naked opportunism because I'm a person that people don't townread and other people are willing to vote me). Even after being repeatedly prodded for reasoning why I'm scum Lone hasn't provided any.

The rest of you have really poor reasoning to think I'm scum, but at least there is some.

If you got voted to E-1 and people couldn't provide any reasoning but assumed that you were scum and were only looking for other scum based on their interactions with you you'd probably also get frustrated. You aren't engaging with me in good faith or making any effort to consider the possibility that you're wrong. If you can't engage in good faith with me, I have no reason to do so with you. It doesn't matter what I say, you've decided that I'm scum. So I'm just gonna say things that make me feel better about dying, which in this case means ridiculing you.

Um, we aren't assuming you are scum. There are reasons behind my accusation, you know. More than "Lunar is indecisive".

I'd get frustrated, but I'd definitely go and start pointing out the flaws behind the accusations, addressing each one, not:

Ben you are way overconfident and it seems like your reads are quite bad. No one is re-evaluating.
The rest of you have really poor reasoning to think I'm scum, but at least there is some.

[
It was the first time you mentioned it. Yesterday or the day before. You said you didn't like my read changing on you, but also admitted that you had made some very questionable posts.

And rather than assume me changing my mind is scummy you should ask me questions to try to uncover my true intentions. This is garbage play from you, tbh.

The only thing you fixed was adding in the possibility of "Scum would choose a read and stick to it".

I can't really engage with you in good faith because you are very sure that Lone is scum and so is BM, and the reasons you provided I just can't agree with. Maybe we can work something together, but the way you are rejecting the possibility that Lone is genuinely newbie town is not helping us get together in good faith.

I am thinking about the possibility where I am wrong, and it's likely there, but this is likely where we are going today and as Trendall said, don't overthink it. I'll reconsider everything D2 if I am wrong.

You aren't really re-evaluating. I'm not asking you to engage me in good faith on my scumreads. I'm asking you to engage in good faith on your scumread of me.

And clidd I think that the scum lie in: Lone, BM, Rock.
Eliminate me, you, Trendall, Chumbo, and ben as possibilities, and that's where you wind up. Lavar could be scum but I think it's somewhat less likely.

Here they show some healthy read progressions; they vote and push both Trendall and Clidd, but end up Townreading them both and refusing to vote for either of them. In this game, what read progressions has Lunar made? They've kept the same kind of reads all along, with a few little alterations here and there. I like how they ask questions with a view to sorting, like they did before their Clidd vote.

Lunar gives decent reasoning without needing to be prodded for it, like in 605.

They tried to keep the town on a healthy path in 864.

When under pressure they spew reads. Compare 1015 and 1156 to their behavior under pressure this game, where they just said 'read my posts' and refused to talk about their reads further. It's night and day.

In both games they've been dismissive of votes against them, saying there's no reasoning for it, but I don't think that line is justified in this game, as was highlighted by Gamma in 591.

@Gamma, Frogster, Grendel,

can you take a look a look at this and tell me what you think?

[Luca Blight]

Well I’m happy with the two main wagons, anyway. I’m pretty sure Bugs is scum, I could see a world where Lunar is Town as some of their interactions during the 1v1 felt a bit townie on a tonal level. Their interactions with Bugs really throws me off, though.

It’s quite possible Scum!Bugs has deliberately tried to make that look like a bus so that when it flips green it muddies the water a bit. The way Bugs suddenly went so hard on Lunar out of nowhere almost seems too obvious to be a real bus.

[Luca Blight]

Pig’s being replaced anyway, so we’ll see what their replacement has to offer.

[Luca Blight]

I agree that catch-up is sketchy, though. Didn’t really pay it much attention first time around.

[Luca Blight]

I don’t see what BW’ing an inactive player particularly achieves, tbh. Let’s focus on the scummy players who are actually playing the game and let the replacement have some breathing space to catch up.

[Luca Blight]

I get your point Frogster and agree with most of what you say there, but a few points:

1) a BW on a player being replaced discourages most players from replacing in, and probably means we’re more likely to get a highly skilled scum player.

2) a BW entirely formed on the replacement’s predecessor can pretty much be dismissed by the successor, especially when there’s so little content.

3) replacing out could be due to the time of year.

4) we have some decent leads already and can always address this slot later.

I agree this slot could well be scum, but I wouldn’t like to assume that already.

[Luca Blight]

Based on interactions on this page I don't think that OutWorldER and Frog are both Mafia. I'm leaning towards Frog being Mafia and Out being Town.

I’m about to sleep but please answer my questions on the previous page.

[Luca Blight]

Trendall seems a very negative player generally. I have no idea how to read them, but there’s a few players I’d rather eliminate before them. I agree with Galron that one of Bugs/Lunar needs to go today.

I’ll check Bugs’ more recent meta to see if there’s anything relevant.

[Luca Blight]

@Lunar

:

Spoiler:

I think of the players active in this engagement Nopower actually looks worse then the rest via him negging Lunar from the sidling's. I dont think its beyond his town game to do something like this as he loves messing with people and giving out lots of witty comebacks as a signiture part of his style. (I wanted to do a trademark symbol over "witty comebacks" but idk how lol)

Gamma looks pretty good in his approtch to all this and i feel he came to a similar conclusion I had come to before I fully came to it.

Luca looks frustrated. I think the question is if its more liekly to come from town or scum. I WANT to say it comes from town but im not sure yet. I need to think more on it. (Hence me asking)

Lunar Im still sorting rn

It would be great if all are town but idk just.

Oh so I see we view things the same way then.

I think I'd like to go for Trendall or OutWorldER. Failing that, NoPower or Frog.

VOTE: Trendall

Does this mean you've changed your read on me?

I don't believe you answered this, Lunar:

bugspray - Not sure, no reason to kill them.

What makes you feel this way?

I don't see any reason to vote there and think the people voting there are as opportunistic as the people voting me. It's popular because it's trendy, and it's trendy because it's popular.

So how is Bugs not opportunistic for voting you?

You say the people voting Bugs are as opportunistic as the people voting you, but Bugs is voting you, so aren't they also opportunistic?

It would be nice if I didn’t have to repeatedly prod you to answer questions.

[Luca Blight]

Lunar standing in the face of death and actively tempting Luca to hammer runs contrary to how survivalistic most scum are. It would be safer in that situation to just go ahead and (fake)claim and hope for the best as scum. Lunar actively spiting on that notion and aggressing the players active in that point of time is pretty inline with town behavior.

in short i think Lunar is more likely town then scum.

I get where you’re coming from, but I could also see that behavior coming from scum who know their time is up/are getting bussed.

I do think Bugs is the more likely scum of the two, and my recent meta-dive reinforces this belief.

[Luca Blight]

This is like getting blood out of a stone. I’m not being aggressive, Lunar, I feel like you’re being deliberately difficult and it’s a drag having to keep chasing you for answers.

Lunar, why have you changed your view on me? Do you now TR me?

Does Bugs’ opportunism not warrant some suspicion?

[Luca Blight]

Why do you scumread Trendall?

[Luca Blight]

@

Mod

: Amelie voted for me last. It was behind spoilers so that’s probably why you missed it.

[Luca Blight]

@Grendel

: Bugs is a creative player. I remember once they were a mason (and I was scum) and they had some really creative theatre with their fellow mason, but I realised they and their partner were masons really early on D1 so it backfired on them that game.

During Bugs’ scum game I remember them doing this weird chart of associations, which also showed some creativity. That’s just off the top of my head, I’ll re-check their meta for anything else.

[Luca Blight]

Bugs is my preferred elimination today. I agree that they should claim in their next post.

[Luca Blight]

Amelie’s reads have made absolutely no sense all game.

On what basis is ORAM a townread?

[Luca Blight]

And just because the role claim isn’t fake doesn’t mean they’re not scum; a backup neighbour could be either alignment.

[Luca Blight]

I haven’t really caught up yet, but I’m willing to go along with this.

VOTE: ORAM

[Luca Blight]

Lunar’s twilight post gave me bad vibes.

I’ll take some time to reassess.

[Luca Blight]

Town: bugspray, Momrangal, ORAM
Null: OutWorldER, Lunar Martian, Trendall, Frogsterking, NoPowerOverMe, Galron
Scum: Gamma Emerald, Luca Blight, Lunar Martian, Grendel

My guess would be she targeted Frogster.

[Luca Blight]

Okay Amelie what happened just now is this:

Most of my time playing in a mafia game was played in live chat and mafia couldn't talk to each other during the day. So right before a mafia died sometimes they would out their pr read if they had one. For a second I thought bugs had read my previous post about hammering them and was outting their pr read on Lunar Martian for their partner, before bugs got hammered.

Then several seconds after I posted I realized I was in a game with day talk, so the fact that bugs pointed that out was actually something scum WOULDN'T do because they could just tell it to their partner in day chat.

I see where you're coming from here, but I'm not sure this is Town-indicative of Bugs. They are very loose with their talk of pr's as either alignment.

I remember Outworld TR Bugs early game for speculating about neighbors, but I think Bugs has done that in literally every game they've played, including their scum games.

In terms of their general play I still haven't seen a single reason to believe Bugs is town.

[Luca Blight]

Outworld feels townie based on page 38, especially in light of ORAM's flip.

[Luca Blight]

Oof dislike the way this went down. I hope you all prove me wrong about ORAM though.

As I touched on before, I got bad vibes from the post above. I checked what Lunar had said about ORAM before, and the only thing was this:

I should maybe clarify that a lot of what is coming across as me being temperamental is mostly me being sarcastic.

ORAM is town here.

Which was made immediately after ORAM's first post, in which he defended Lunar.

It felt as though the twilight post was there to remind people that Lunar townread ORAM, in order for them to bank their towncred, and possibly to shade the people on the wagon.

[Luca Blight]

leading a shit-push against an LHF slot and then immediately opening the second day by pushing another LHF slot that protested that same wagon

yeah okay

VOTE: Frogsterking

I'm pretty confident on Frogster/Bugspray now, but I'm holding off on pushing them for the time being since I want them to share info from Amelie's hood, assuming their claim is real (if they get CC'd they're getting turbo-elimmed immediately though).

Frogster is obvtown. I can go into more detail on this later if need be.

I'm curently torn between eliminating Bugs/Lunar, much as I was D1. Leaning slightly towards Lunar atm.

[Luca Blight]

I think D1 may have been an off-wagon day. I put your slot in null because I'm most open to re-evaluating you.

Can you elaborate any more on what appeared to be a fairly strong town read on ORAM, OutWorldER?

I don't believe Outworld ever stated or even implied a strong town read on ORAM - he was just far from convinced and preferred eliminating Bugs, which is fair enough.

[Luca Blight]

Trendel: He hasn't managed to town tell a single time this game FMPOV. I guess there was a moment when he was being cooperative with Momrangul and voted OutWorldER, I'm curious whether Momrangul felt this was a townie interaction. He did say that he's all-neuroticism in his response to the SSS so maybe he is nervous. He's sort of playing the "Anti Town" archetype but doesn't seem like he's enjoying it very much. Posts just enough to not be the least active player. My instinct is that he's scum.

I think I've said it before, but Trendall is almost unreadable. I've looked at their meta and they play in the same dour, negative manner as either alignment. If I had no strong SR's I'd probably push them as a policy-elim for this reason.

[Luca Blight]

I think Amelie's flip makes Lunar a really bad elim at the current moment. It's conjecture obviously but it was pointed out that Lunar softed a TPR and I'd assume Amelie would probably protect that.

Of the two you're looking to lim Luca I'm obviously very open to Bugs.

That's a good point. I hadn't considered that possibility.

[Luca Blight]

there were four reasons I townread bugs at the conclusion of D1:

a) Their claim seemed real.
b) They have a tendency to be miseliminated, especially as pr apparently. I knew this before I even played with bugs because another player mentioned it in an earlier game.
c) bugs pointed out Lunar's soft in-thread and (if it's real) if they were scum they would have shut up about it. It was a moment that was such a strong town tell it made me reconsider.
d) Amelie who I had just resorted as town had bugs as a strong townread.

Only c) is a possible reason to TR Bugs imo, and it is a good reason, but as I said I really could see Scum!Bugs openly talking about possible Town PR's in thread even with day chat.

For d) you already seem to disagree with most of Amelie's reads so I'm not sure why you'd put much stock into what she thought. Her reasoning for believing Bugs was Town was also flawed; she believed the claim, but even though the claim is true Bugs isn't necessarily town.

For b) I've hard town-read Bugs every time they have been Town, and scumread them the only time they've been scum. They may be mis-elimed sometimes, but they definitely do town-telly things as Town, which hasn't been the case in this game.

[Luca Blight]

Frogster, Outworld, NPOM, Grendel
Gamma
Galron

Trendall
Momrangal

Lunar, Bugs

This is kind of where I'm at now, but I need to review a few slots.

[Luca Blight]

I'm a little paranoid of Grendel, actually.

[Luca Blight]

I can get behind a tentative game solve that returns bugs to the PoE with the entire scum team being within Lunar/bugs/OutWorldER/Trendall.

IF you believe the entire scum team is within this PoE, AND the vast majority of living town players agree with with this PoE,
THEN the scum team MUST disrupt the status quo in some way, AND right now is their best chance to do so, with an 8 to 3 town to scum ratio.

This is the clear scum motivation I'm seeing right now in OutWorldER's play that I'm not seeing in Trendall or bugs, even though I agree OutWorldER successfully dropped town tells EoD1 and so far on D2, I believe he could simply be attempting to fight his way out of the PoE. If this PoE is correct I don't see how scum!Trendall or scum!bugs are expecting to win the game playing today the way they have, unless they are expecting OutWorldER or some deep scum to carry them.

This is the kind of thought process where you can end up tying yourself in knots. I posted my reads to show where I'm at, but I don't feel in a position to accurately solve by PoE right now.

You could have made the same argument about Amelie D1, but she was Town. I think Outworld is showing a townie mindset, and that's good enough for me right now. I'm certainly open to the possibility I could be wrong about one of my TR's, and I need to review Grendel, Galron and Gamma in particular.

[Luca Blight]

I also don't think scum always play proactively - often they lay back and hope for Town to bury itself, which frequently happens.

[Luca Blight]

And you used the example of Trendall and Bugs - the two players I know for a fact wouldn't play proactively as scum.

[Luca Blight]

The more I look at Lunar's recent, the less I want to eliminate there today. They're starting to look like defensive town rather than defensive scum.

UNVOTE: Lunar Martian

What are your general reads right now across the board?

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

Im willing to take flack if Lunar ends up flipping scum. I am wary of a world where Lunar is a rude town PR given his abrasiveness to claiming.

I'll probably revote once i do some thinking.

Grendel already openly speculated that Lunar could be a town PR as well, so Bugs wasn't even the first to bring it up.

Would you consider this a townslip on Grendel's part as well, Frogster?

[Luca Blight]

I have to get some rest soon. I'll try to swing by in the morning before I go to work.

There's a very good chance that im getting nk'd tonight if Luca vs Lunar is TvT. Historically I've found that Scum are afraid of townies that are willing to actively break up TvTs inthread.

The more I consider this the more I find it weird coming from a Town perspective.

@Frogster:

I'm interested in what you think about this too.

[Luca Blight]

I feel as though Grendel has put a lot of effort into looking Townie and solving, asking questions etc, but I don't see a lot of substance behind a lot of his questions, and most of his play has been on the safe side. Asking questions to the thread etc seems an easy way to look productive without actually doing much.

One of the reasons I TR him was because of the way he handled the argument between myself and Lunar, but the above quote again shows he was very aware of it being a townie thing to do.

[Luca Blight]

I hadn't really found him suspicious at all, though. It's pretty much the opposite as his posts look decent for the most part, but like he's actively trying to look as Townie as possible.

[Luca Blight]

Finally some decent content from Lunar. I’m not sure why it took you so long.

@Grendel

: Momrangal is one of the slots I fully intend on reviewing today.

[Luca Blight]

This seems much more like Town!Lunar from the meta I linked earlier.

I think I’d prefer a Bugs elim still but I’m willing to consider Trendall.

[Luca Blight]

Bugs, any thoughts on the game in general? What was with the naked Lunar vote/unvote?

I don't want you to get bogged down in the neighborhood stuff as that won't help me read you.

[Luca Blight]

I knew I was town.

Bug said you two were added at the same time, implying more than one addition per night.

Bugs said Gamma also claimed backup, so presumably there's just two town backup neighbors, or one town and one scum backup (which is my suspicion).

I've never seen this before so it is pretty unusual.

[Luca Blight]

I looked through the mini normal archives and the only game that had two backups of the same role was a game that had two backup IC's, but no actual IC, so not really comparable to this game.

There have been four members of the hood in total now, right? It would be highly unusual if they were all Town.

[Luca Blight]

I found this mini normal that had six neighbors, with one of them being a scum traitor. Outworld mentioned this possibility, so it seems interesting.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78822

I'll need to take some time to reflect on it.

[Luca Blight]

I looked through the mini normal archives and the only game that had two backups of the same role was a game that had two backup IC's, but no actual IC, so not really comparable to this game.

There have been four members of the hood in total now, right? It would be highly unusual if they were all Town.

I’m not entirely enthused by this mindset regarding the hood
Imo neighborhoods shouldn’t be used as a PoE subset where someone

has to be

scum in it

It would be unusual to have an all-Town hood in this scenario imo, but I realise such things can be deliberately included in games to mislead. I once played a normal with a backup Tracker, and a scum who was informed of there being a backup Tracker, but no actual Tracker in the game, which lead to some confusing scenes.

I'd be happy to get away from the neighborhood spec until later in the game when more info about the setup will be available.

[Luca Blight]

What are you thinking, Grendel?

What's your read on Bugs currently?

[Luca Blight]

And why did you specifically ask for reads about me, Trendall and Momrangal earlier?

[Luca Blight]

Yes, I'm just doing some online work and I'll get to it after I'm finished.

[Luca Blight]

This is pretty interesting, especially should Bugs flip scum:

VOTE: busy

I can hop on that wagon too

Momrangal, who was voting Outworld, puts Bugs on 4 votes, which is clearly leading wagon at this point.

VOTE: outworlder

But this works better. Pressure isn't going to work on that slot I don't think and I would rather push against someone who is more probable scum

Then she immediately switches her vote back to Outworld, who no-one else is voting. This quick vote-switching can be a cheap scum distancing tool.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: NPOM

I wonder what this'll do

Ok, I was just making sure that the claim was bs like I thought it was.

The only people that have an issue with it are those outside the block.

Who are the five people in it?

Me
Galron
Grendal
Frog
Gamma

Frog is still pushing you as scum here, but I do agree. The pushes against you are not only crappy as fuck but they are targeted at the largest voice within the block and someone who, if left alive could win us the game

I don't see the progression here. One of the people pushing NPOM was Momrangal herself, who gave absolutely no reasoning at all for her vote. Also, one of these 'crappy' pushes against NPOM came from Bugs, who Momrangal seemingly doesn't want to suspect or pressurize.

[Luca Blight]

It should feel like that because I have been doing questionable things all day trying to get people react.

Like voting NPOM after saying he was town several times

But OWER is a legitimate scum read here and trendall could be playing with me here

Oh, I've just seen this, which somewhat sheds some light on the above.

I need to reflect a little more on this.

[Luca Blight]

I don't really like reaction testing like that. I don't think it's necessary when there's already a lot of content being produced. It just makes you harder to read.

[Luca Blight]

No one here is willing to elim anyone except you and bugspray.

This isn't true, and no I'm not counter-claiming bugs here. Most wagons that have been put on the table today have had support for them, and votes moving towards them.

At the same time, I'm having a harder time convincing OWER to take off.

I would like to see a Lunar scum flip here, tbh because it brings clarity to two other slots in my opinion

She really hasn't given a good reason to vote Outworld, though, as far as I can see. 237 is the only real reason, based on a post from Outworld on page 9, and it really isn't very compelling. She's ridden this scumread ever since then.

Some of Momrangal's points against Lunar late D1 were Ok.

Overall I still have her as null-scum. I do think she could be protecting Bugs. Otherwise, there's not much scummy behaviour to report, but not a lot that strikes me as Townie either.

[Luca Blight]

I'm still agnostic on Bugs tbh, probably town lean. Their willingness to share info from the hood but only after getting the okay doesn't seem like something mafia would do.

This is flawed reasoning. What would scum!Bugs gain from immediately outing the info in the thread, when they could inform their buddies through the day chat anyway?

The only thing this point does is counter the argument that Bugs is scum!traitor, but even that's a bit of a stretch.

[Luca Blight]

Frogster, does the fact Grendel was the first to point out that Lunar is a potential Town PR change your view on the supposed Bugs townslip?

[Luca Blight]

Ok. I'll review Outworld to see what I'm missing there.

[Luca Blight]

I'm not really seeing the connections you're drawing there, Frogster. Maybe I'm missing something, but I doubt Outworld would have taken this stance and argued hard for it if he were scum with Lunar and Bugs:

A votecount would be nice.

I'm doing Lunar or Bugspray today. I'm still not sold on ORAM wagon.

Bugspray's claim is more likely to be scum, I think. I absolutely do not think a Town Backup Neighbor openly specs on neighbors.

Reviewing the evidence, I'm inclined to say Bugspray is a Traitor, actually. I thjnk his open spec on neighbors makes more sense from the perspective of a Traitor with info on Neighbors/Masons in the setup.

I also get what he's saying here, so don't get any bussing vibes particularly.

[Luca Blight]

Like when did OutWorldER start townreading Trendall? Why is he assuming Trendall is LHF instead of scum?

If he's scumreading you then it's a natural assumption to make. Look at Amelie D1 - she assumed Bugs was Town purely on the basis that I'm scum, despite finding them scummy.

[Luca Blight]

Trendall must be scum then if we're basing it on how unenthusiastic and mildly pissed off people are

I'll look into it.

[Luca Blight]

Does scum choose to 1v1 you here rather than just kill you? Granted, it's possible Amelie might have taken a bullet for you, but I'm still not sure scum would approach it in this manner.

I'm much more used to passive scum players to be honest. Scum who have an active agenda and plan are pretty few and far between from my experience.

I'll stay open minded though if you want to do that scum case.

[Luca Blight]

Tunneling is real. I really see no reason to say he's scum based on that, I have to be honest.

With ORAM's flip in mind, I find Outworld's end of D1 posting Townie, and I like his push on Bugs and the traitor theory. 1007 is decent as well.

I could well understand why you wanted ORAM eliminated, and I could also understand Outworld's position. I usually dislike the term TvT, but I think this is a fine example of that.

[Luca Blight]

I get the feeling Lunar is Town based on their recent posts. You theorized earlier that Lunar's meta could be different from their previous town game due to this being their first time out of the Newbie queue, and their recent posts are much more in line from what I'd expect from Town!Lunar.

I'll go back and check though to make sure.

[Luca Blight]

Maybe it's possible, but I'm pretty confident Lunar is Town now. I'm not sure they could suddenly turn it on like that as scum out of nowhere. It seems genuine.

[Luca Blight]

I also like their read change on me - it would be so easy for scum to ride a scum read like that instead of reassessing.

Again, I'll stay open to the possibility of Lunar!scum but I'm happy enough with them for now.

[Luca Blight]

Frogster, NPOM
Outworld
Lunar

Gamma
Galron
Grendel

Trendall
Momrangal

Bugs

Sorting GGG is probably the key to this game.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Bugs

[Luca Blight]

Actually It's probably harsh to have Momrangal below Trendall. They're both about null-scum for me, though.

I believe she is due a prod actually

@Mod

.

[Luca Blight]

I'm more confident in Trendall than in bugs, but if no one else is going to vote bugs today I'll switch. Could I ask everyone to give me a reason they don't want to vote Trendall though?

I think Trendell and Bugs are both town.

OK, why?

Good question.

I see no reason at all to believe Bugs is Town here. I compromised D1 but I'm reluctant to do so again when I'm very confident in my read. Bugs isn't playing like a Townie at all - they're playing like someone who knows their days are numbered and are trying to slip by under the radar for as long as possible.

[Luca Blight]

@Grendel

: Why do you TR Bugs?

[Luca Blight]

I feel like I’m gonna have to completely reassess again here.

@Mod:

can we get a prod on Bugs, please?

[Luca Blight]

I don't see the progression here. One of the people pushing NPOM was Momrangal herself, who gave absolutely no reasoning at all for her vote. Also, one of these 'crappy' pushes against NPOM came from Bugs, who Momrangal seemingly doesn't want to suspect or pressurize.

Y'know

You totally missed the fact that I voted NPOM when I beleived NPOM to be town

And you clearly missed the fact that I addressed that in my very next post.

[Luca Blight]

I can't bring myself to even read Trendall's posts anymore.

[Luca Blight]

I'm gonna take a step back for a day or two, wait for Grendel's explanation and for Bugs to contribute before I do my reassessment.

[Luca Blight]

Nice work.

So I guess your whole ‘Luca, Trendall, Momrangal’ thing was just a cover for the fact you wanted associative info from Momrangal, Grendel?

I haven’t done any analysis yet so maybe I’ve missed something, but I think Galron could still be scum?

[Luca Blight]

It seems to me that Galron has gone out of his way to defend Bugs/deflect attention away from them on a few occasions.

[Luca Blight]

I think Trendall is probably just Town tbh.

I’m less sure about Lunar now. Lunar/Bugs was a team I had on D1, it’s possible they would then go on to try and distance.

[Luca Blight]

Here it is:

Lmao wow. I'm not mafia.

It's okay, I don't think there is any way for you guys to win anymore, I already have a guilty on Bugs and I'm investigating Momrangal tonight, I think you should just surrender if that's a possibility.

Dont worry about investigating Momrangal. I checked her last night and shes mafia.

[Luca Blight]

You’re wasting your time trying to talk sense into Trendall, Frogster.

I just played a game with them where I was by far the most TR player, pushing hard for the elimination of a very dubious slot. This slot claimed Doc (a day before potential MeLo) and I CC’d within four minutes of the claim. What’s more, if I were scum I would have had unbelievable towncred because he claimed to have protected me N1 when there was no kill, and yet Trendall still argued against me for saying the other guy was confirmed scum. I explained again and again how it made absolutely no sense for me to make that play as scum, but it was of no use. I thought maybe Trendall was just scum trying desperately to WIFOM, but they were Town.

I don’t think Trendall is scum here, but I’m really done in terms of interacting with them.

[Luca Blight]

It seems to me that Galron has gone out of his way to defend Bugs/deflect attention away from them on a few occasions.

This is true. I've defended Bugs. I think he's town.

That was shade out of nowhere with no follow-up from Luca.

It wasn’t out nowhere, it was based on Bugs being scum.

I’ve only skimmed the recent developments and will follow-up more when I have time.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Momrangal

[Luca Blight]

Couldn’t resist.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Bugspray

i accept no other substitutes for an elim this day.

This.

VOTE: Bugspray

[Luca Blight]

ngl, one of my reasons for scum-reading luca before was that he only showed “genuine” emotions when he was talking about bugg’s uncooperativeness (he seemed to show himself as a person only in posts that are both kinda useless and completely NAI)
but I kinda get that now lmao...

I guess you're talking about my D1 argument with Lunar, not Bugs. Otherwise, I don't really get what you're saying here.

[Luca Blight]

I'm also thinking Momrangal/Bugs/Galron is the team.

[Luca Blight]

2 scum back up neighbors would be a strange dynamic, but i guess anything is theoretically possible. I’d need to review the Trendall slot again as well after Bugs’ flip. Frogster, Outworld and Lunar are all Town I believe.

[Luca Blight]

Momrangal SR Trendall for most of D1 but never really pushed his elim that hard, which suggests distancing. I’m leaning away from them being partners, however, due to the timing of this vote:

VOTE: trendall

On the assumption that Bugs is scum, then this would have put both of her partners as the leading two wagons, which isn’t a great place to be D1.

[Luca Blight]

Bugs has given away very little associative info, apart from when they turned on Lunar, which struck me as fake bussing.

This seemed a weird interaction, though:

Trendall can you make posts that are easier to parse? I'm getting the vibe of someone who is heading for the chopping block from you and the amount of pressure on your slot is like really low

Because I didn’t get this sense at all at the time of this post. Perhaps scum who is overly aware of their partner’s scummy behavior?

[Luca Blight]

@luca, which games were you talking about (where you read them correctly)?

I really don't feel like talking any more about my meta read on Bugs. I feel as though there is enough reason to believe they are scum from their play in this game alone. If you're wondering about the validity of my claim that I have had success reading them as both alignments, the fact Bugs themselves hasn't questioned or refuted this should be evidence enough that I'm not making it up.

[Luca Blight]

Really the only thing that makes me doubt the non-partnered read between Momrangal and Luca is actually the hammer on 1379 and the follow-up comment on 1380. That was kind of random and I'd like to hear Luca elaborate on what exactly he meant by "Couldn't resist." It's just an odd comment to me and the hammer seemed a bit sudden.

There's something satisfying about hammering scum, and when Datisi posted the VC that showed Momrangal was E-1 I just dropped the hammer on impulse.

[Luca Blight]

I was going to go more into my Lunar read Tomorrow.

My read on Lunar this game has been affected by a Newbie I was simultaneously playing with them (which has now finished) where I believed they were Town for most of the game, but they were scum. Their improved play, therefore, is very much possible from Town!Lunar. Their read on Galron, however, implied they might be a Town PR, as Lunar had previously shown no indication that they townread Galron, so an 'obvtown' read at this juncture suggested that they had received a green light.

Right now I think Frogster is just correct in saying it's Bugs/Lunar, and this was the team I heavily suspected D1. I'm struggling with motivation for Mafia right now for a few reasons unrelated to this game, and just want to get the Bugs elim done before I dig deeper into this.

[Luca Blight]

From scum!Lunar, I meant to say.

[Luca Blight]

Lunar was never close to being eliminated in that game, so they never needed to deviate from being 'nice'. In this game they were ran up to E-1 for what they seemed to believe was bad reasons, so that explains why they would be more hostile in their response.

[Luca Blight]

Never close to being eliminated until the Tracker had a guilty on them, anyway.

[Luca Blight]

They don't have to fake emotions, they would probably be angry as either alignment being ran up to E-1 for 'bad reasons'.

I was in their scum game, so please don't ask me to compare meta. They were never under pressure that game.

[Luca Blight]

I did the same thing in a previous scum game. Another player hard-pushed me for not being very involved early on, so I bit back hard which brought about a prolonged 1v1 where they ended up TR'ing me. Being aggressive as scum isn't hard to do, and you don't need to fake emotions as it sucks being SR as either alignment.

[Luca Blight]

and that was not the only point I made. If you think lunar is scum, please comment on my old read on them.
I posted it in a spoiler above

I'm really not in the mood to read walls of text right now, but at a glance it seems to all be based around the same thing - being hard, aggressive etc. I've already explained why this isn't a reliable reason to TR someone. If there's something unrelated to this in your reasoning then please highlight it for me.

[Luca Blight]

I've seen plenty of angry scum so I couldn't disagree more tbh.

And the emotional aspect between the two games isn't comparable because they were two entirely different contexts.

Do you have any other reasoning that doesn't involve being hard/angry?

[Luca Blight]

You're specifically talking about Lunar's reaction to being E-1 as your main reason for SR'ing them, and comparing it to their Town game when they were never scumread at all. You just can't reliably compare these two scenarios.

I think Lunar's D1 posting in this game was extremely scummy. Their D2 stuff has been a lot better looking, but they've shown they are able to make nice looking posts as scum before.

This is their first time out of the Newbie queue, so I think they planned to sit back and ease into the game. When they got called out and subsequently run up to E-1, they responded angrily, because they didn't feel it was justified. They then amended their behaviour (Like Frogster said) and managed to find their feet a bit. That's my theory right now.

Anyway, I really want to elim Bugs before I get too deep into this.

[Luca Blight]

For TR'ing them* I mean

[Luca Blight]

And compared it to their previous scum** game

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

That’s a bit hard when you repeatedly avoid questions.

What are you reads?

I've shared my thoughts. If you aren't even going to bother reading what I write we aren't going to get very far.

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

That’s a bit hard when you repeatedly avoid questions.

What are you reads?

I've shared my thoughts. If you aren't even going to bother reading what I write we aren't going to get very far.

And if you’re not gonna bother to engage with me about your thoughts then what do you expect me (or anyone else who SR’s you) to do here exactly?

You’re crying woe is me but not pushing in any direction. Have any of your reads changed recently? How do you feel about a Bugs elim?

Don't ask questions I've already answered. Read what I've written already. This isn't real engagement. You aren't doing anything. You're trying to look busy.

I fount Lunar's reaction here to be scum-indicative, because they were moaning about how no-one was engaging with them, and yet when I do engage they were just like 'read my posts', even though their previous posts said next to nothing. I realise Town get salty too, but I feel as though Lunar would be more willing to engage here and at least talk about their reads if they were genuine.

[Luca Blight]

I don't see why scum being stressed out would mean they would definitely engage. Lunar didn't look as though they had much of a grip of the game at that point, so it would have been hard for them to engage under pressure, and much easier to reply 'read my posts', even though they say next to nothing.

When did Lunar suck up to players in their previous scum game? I don't remember that.

[Luca Blight]

And I scumread them more right now for their connections to Bugs and PoE.

[Luca Blight]

The example I gave was just countering your point about how Lunar's reaction to pressure was supposedly Townie.

[Luca Blight]

I think it boils down to this:

Lunar has been as 'nice' as they were in their previous game, apart from when they've been put under pressure and SR, which never occurred in their previous scum game.

You obviously have your unique way of looking at the game, and we're not going to see eye to eye on this point any time soon.

[Luca Blight]

They were as nice, until they were at E-1. I was already scumreading them before they were ever being ‘not nice’.

You seem to believe that scum don’t get angry, but I’ve seen so many instances of scum being aggressive and angry. I just had a game where a newer player townread someone for giving up, as he believed giving up when your elimination is near is a townie thing to do, and we had a similar disagreement. I was proven right on that occasion.

I’m not 100% that Lunar is scum and really want to elim Bugs before I dig deeper, but please don’t rule them out based on such reasoning.

[Luca Blight]

Ok. Just vote Bugs and we can figure out who the partner is on D4.

[Luca Blight]

It’s increasingly obvious that it’s Bugs/Galron.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Luca

Doing this so Luca can make an omgus claim.

This is pure desperation.

[Luca Blight]

@ejj: I now agree that Lunar is Town, but why do you think Galron is?

Consider that Bugs is scum, along with Momrangal who is already confirmed, and look through his ISO - there has been an agenda since the start. I might make a case once I get to a computer.

[Luca Blight]

Just about every meaningful post Galron has made has had scum motive behind it, from the perspective of a Galron/Momrangal/Bugs team:

VOTE: frogsterking personality tests are pseudoscience

This is the correct answer.

VOTE: forgsterking

Backs up Bugs and undermines the strong Town voice early on.

The assumptions I'm running on are that 3/3 scum are all in the low activity end, because they aren't sure how to lie yet and are reacting to their own lies

Scum have no need to lie early game in general.

Low activity posters reacting to their own lies? If they're not posting they're not lying.

Your implication that the low activity posters are inexperienced at scum is dreadfully faulty and supported by nothing.

Your assumptions and early posting are vapid attempts at intellectual prowess that seemed to be designed to mislead. I think you're likely scum.

Casts suspicion on the early strong Town voice. Rejects the idea that scum are in the lower posters (Frogster's theory was correct). Side note: whatever happened to his SR on Frogs?

I'm not convinced wagons on bugs or npom are worth pursuing atm. They're both cryptic early gamers. Bugs we can ring up, but I don't know that we accomplish anything by pushing to claim. Npom sounds like his claim will be mundane.

Sigh...

I guess I should move just to get wagons moving

VOTE: lunar

Dubious reasoning for protecting Bugs. Tries to push the Lunar wagon instead.

I personally don't see much of a town Bloc.

Undermines the (mostly pure) townbloc. Galron is the only scum in this bloc, and he is by far the least active member of this group, and probably doesn't feel as though he can carry his team at this stage. He realised his partners could become wagoned by the townbloc at any time, so looks to break up this unity. It's also worth noting that Bugs was the leading wagon at this point, with two townbloc members (three if you include me) voting them.

I"m good with executing Lunar Martian, especially after that last paranoid post where he though Luca was talking about him. That sounds like a caught (and not paranoid town) maf.

Reasserts his belief in the Lunar wagon, as the tide turns their way.

Can we consolidate on Lunar and Bugspray? I'm less convinced that Bugs is scum than Lunar, but there seems to be a lack of focus and we need to elim someone. My take on Bugs is pure meta. I haven't seen anything different from them this game than others I've been in with them. They're almost always on the rack early game -- it's a style thing with Bugs I think. Lunar, on the other hand, just feels scummy to me, a dose of AtE along with caught in the headlights.

With Lunar and Bugs at 4 votes each, Galron calls for consolidation onto one of these wagons. He makes out as though he is open to a Bugs elim, while clearly trying to persuade people onto joining the Lunar wagon instead. This helps save his partner, while covering his ass in case Bugs is eliminated.

I'm willing to go Oram or Lunar Martian.

Is quick to back the Oram wagon and forget about Bugs.

It's about too late to claim and cfd. I'd say you're good to hammer npom. 6 hours left.

Avoids getting his hands dirty by encouraging NPOM to drop the hammer on Oram instead of doing it himself.

I agree that outworlder needs an eyeball tonight whoever is able to provide that.

Encourages an invest on a Town player.

I'm still agnostic on Bugs tbh, probably town lean. Their willingness to share info from the hood but only after getting the okay doesn't seem like something mafia would do.

D2 - Continues to defend Bugs.

I'm more confident in Trendall than in bugs, but if no one else is going to vote bugs today I'll switch. Could I ask everyone to give me a reason they don't want to vote Trendall though?

I think Trendell and Bugs are both town.

Again defends Bugs.

I'm suspicious of the people who want to get rid of Bugs, who is a conduit to the hood, but not Gamma. It wasn't until recently that Gamma even shared anything from the hood, if I recall correctly.

Casts suspicion onto those who suspect Bugs in an indirect manner. Galron has never stated any suspicion of me by this point, but you can see he's building up to it with posts like these.

In the hood I've been town reading Trendall and Bugs, and more recently leaning townish on Gamma, with reservations on the latter. Bugs was willing to be a spokesperson and passed along some information and made sure to ask what we wanted passed along, and they've just generally been solvy to the point of raising concerns about me more recently. Trendall is extremely solvy in the hood. So I don't think it's a good idea to eliminate Trendall or Bugs ( caveat: I need to learn more about this guilty that frogster has -- I don't see a crumb but I've been moving through the thread pretty quickly).

And it should also be known that Amelie wanted to pass along that she was townreading momrangel, but with Grendel's guilty, that depends on how much everyone trusts Grendel.

TR's Bugs for passing on info from the hood (an easy plan that doesn't hurt scum at all) and tries to do damage control on Momrangal.

Starting to suspect a Grendel/Luca team.

Casts suspicion on the Town invest in the hope of saving Momrangal. Note that even though he was proven wrong about his Grendel and Momrangal reads, he continues to read the game in exactly the same manner without reassessing.

It seems to me that Galron has gone out of his way to defend Bugs/deflect attention away from them on a few occasions.

This is true. I've defended Bugs. I think he's town.

It's never quite clear when Bugs went from being a null read to a hard town read for Galron. Is sharing info from the hood really a justifiable reason to locktown someone?

It seems to me that Galron has gone out of his way to defend Bugs/deflect attention away from them on a few occasions.

This is true. I've defended Bugs. I think he's town.

That was shade out of nowhere with no follow-up from Luca.

This is from the guy who has been indirectly shading me for half the game and accused me of being scum with Grendel at the end of D2.

I mean, bugs claimed backup neighbor. A neighbor was killed, and bugs became a neighbor. Gamma claimed backup neighbor (in the hood) also. For bugs to be traitor, bugs would've had to have not known about Gamma. It's possible either bugs or gamma (or both -- really doubt) are scum. Of the two, looking at the mechanics, it would make more sense for Gamma to be the mafia member just because if there was a town backup neighbor and a scum backup neighbor, and neither knows that the other role exists, for bugs to claim backup neighbor under pressure to do so seems too pure. And then there was no cc from Gamma. I've been town reading Gamma, so I don't know that that's AI, but if we're comparing the two, I think it's more likely Gamma's scum than Bugs.

Tentatively puts forward Gamma as being scum in place of Bugs.

VOTE: Luca

Doing this so Luca can make an omgus claim.

Finally commits his vote to me, and preemptively says I'll make an omgus claim. I think it's pretty clear from this progression that Galron has been setting himself up to SR me ever since I figured out Bugs is scum, and he's waited until the last possible moment to lay down his cards. Isn't it weird how he's voting me so I'll make an omgus clam, rather than because he actually believes I'm scum?

[Luca Blight]

"

And it should also be known that Amelie wanted to pass along that she was townreading momrangel, but with Grendel's guilty, that depends on how much everyone trusts Grendel.

"

I've just realised this line was intended to make people believe that scum tried to kill Momrangal.

Also, if Amiele revealed her role or hinted at it in the hood, this could be motive behind scum directly killing Amiele - because it would give Momrangal significant towncred.

[Luca Blight]

Not necessarily - Amelie, who was a BG and was in the hood, died N1.

Did Amelie know Grendel was a PR N1?

[Luca Blight]

Or whoever the other claimed PR is.

[Luca Blight]

P-edit: I think you guys in the hood are probably approaching this wrong tbh. There shouldn't be so much concern about "leaking hood info" you should be collaborating more with thread. It's very frustrating and if there's scum in the hood they already know everything.

This ^

I've never seen so much trust in a hood before. It feels as though a lot of manipulation has occurred behind closed doors.

[Luca Blight]

Or whoever the other claimed PR is.

I'm getting confused - I thought Grendel was in the hood.

The point is, whoever claimed a tpr in the hood could a) either be scum or b) have been targeted N1 and protected by Amelie, who was also in the hood.