Mini 2186: Pokemon Battles [GAME OVER]

[Raya36]

VOTE: catboi

[Raya36]

Hi!

VOTE: raya I'm scared of your scumgame now >.>

-Inf

You have nothing to worry about. If I got scum again I would have simply passed away

[Raya36]

Hi!

VOTE: raya I'm scared of your scumgame now >.>

-Inf

You have nothing to worry about. If I got scum again I would have simply passed away

..........are........you..........alive.........?

Barely, but I am

[Raya36]

You have nothing to worry about. If I got scum again I would have simply passed away

So being alive is a towntell for you, got it. Any others I should know about?

-Inf

Well sometimes when I get scum I cease to exist. So there's also that

[Raya36]

Red isn't concerning at all...

[Raya36]

Wonderful, you made the correct decision.

Now if only everyone else shared the same tells as me. We'd have already won.

[Raya36]

i guess visibly scumhunting is being rather generous, but he does seem to be playing even with the limited communication, and i'm in no hurry to see it stop.

This is actually a good point. Easy to hide in a gimmick, especially this early on. Although it's 75 where I see the visible scumhunting. What were you referring to?

[Raya36]

okay

[Raya36]

i guess visibly scumhunting is being rather generous, but he does seem to be playing even with the limited communication, and i'm in no hurry to see it stop.

This is actually a good point. Easy to hide in a gimmick, especially this early on. Although it's 75 where I see the visible scumhunting. What were you referring to?

asking if you were alive and the stressed Titus vote stood out to me as "actual gameplay" when the rest of Red's posts were just ellipses. it's really not much but it made me think he was paying attention.

i'm hoping Perfume's posts expand a bit more, too.

Asking if I was alive was probably just something that fit well in the gimmick but I agree with the vote and also as I mentioned 75 supports this too.

[Raya36]

Red, chara, jj, mistyx are fine

Titus claimed negative utility and I haven't figured out if I trust that yet

catboi rvs is now serious

[Raya36]

Red, chara, jj, mistyx are fine

Titus claimed negative utility and I haven't figured out if I trust that yet

catboi rvs is now serious

Why are you suspicious of my claim?

Why is catboi now a serious push?

Why are Red and jj town?

Wary is probably a better word. A negative utility claim can have you basically cleared and I'm not ready to fully assume you're not scum claiming this for the clear.

Didn't like his vote on Mistyx. The reasoning doesn't make much sense.

Red for the reason chara and I talked about. jj for making me realize the deadlines are very short which should make players who may have also overlooked this do more. Scum could have just let the current gamestate go until it's too late to make a good decision.

[Raya36]

I don't think it's necessarily bad, but pushing for more content and more to happen is a good thing still

[Raya36]

Yes of course but I think scum would rather let the game drag on than look good for pushing it forward

[Raya36]

Do you have any scumreads bob?

[Raya36]

So would you care to say who?

[Raya36]

Yeah I definitely didn't know for sure if that meant you actually scumread them or not. Why do you scumread them?

[Raya36]

This is always such a silly line of questioning.

Do you think they have a greater chance of being scum than other players in the game? If so, why do you need my reasons?

If no, will me writing some reasons down be a genuine way of you reevaluating? Or is just rereading them yourself enough?

Yeah, as mistyx said, I have very little interest in learning about your 2 scumreads. I'm asking you so I can read you better.

[Raya36]

Wary is probably a better word. A negative utility claim can have you basically cleared and I'm not ready to fully assume you're not scum claiming this for the clear.

Didn't like his vote on Mistyx. The reasoning doesn't make much sense.

Red for the reason chara and I talked about. jj for making me realize the deadlines are very short which should make players who may have also overlooked this do more. Scum could have just let the current gamestate go until it's too late to make a good decision.

i don't think Red's participation has been that AI, and while the rest of this is pretty much... fine, i don't know if it's town.

actually, why would an ascetic claim clear anyone? Titus could be scum and claiming truthfully.

Just the some early town leans. We unfortunately don't have much to work with yet so they are on the weaker side.

Maybe I'm not fully understanding the claim. I'll look back into it.

[Raya36]

Yeah.. it seems to be lacking in the extreme passion

[Raya36]

We still have time Bob, why do you seem rushed to get Infinity eliminated?

[Raya36]

I suggested claiming before we have 24hrs left does that seem overly rushed to you?

You suggested specifically to Infinity. Why can't we reevaluate and find someone else. The first wagon of the day doesn't need to be the elimination

[Raya36]

Raya, do you have a read on us?

-Inf

I disagree with Chara being pockety but I don't think the read is bad considering how early it was. Nothing else has particularly stood out to me. You're null for now

[Raya36]

Why can't we reevaluate and find someone else

Why would we do that right now lmao? This is a great wagon.

Give me a list of all the reasons why Infinity is scum or a good elimination

[Raya36]

Infinity town

[Raya36]

Interesting, why

-Inf

Scum arent that defensive and making a massive case about someone who's pushing them this early.

[Raya36]

Y'all can T v T. Meanwhile Perfume has been dodging this thread since we got out of RVS.

I don't think this is TvT tbh? Like there's a brewing anti- bob sentiment in the thread which is, if you'll allow me the assumption of being correct on my scumread of Infinity, makes sense as the pieces start to fall together.

How are you so confident already?

Chara still seems fine to me. I can understand the Bob TR.

Oh I don't need you to defend me Chara, I need you to reach across the aisle to the half the game that feels content to just waft around at the moment

This feels forced.

[Raya36]

I think I just don't like Bob's playstyle. Not so much that I think he's scum. I honestly feel like scum would be a little more careful about their appearance. I'm going to back away from this slot for now

[Raya36]

I think so too. Town generally tries to make themselves readable so I think Red has a better chance of flipping scum than any of the other wagons.

VOTE: Red Flavor

I’m actually shocked that they haven’t received a single vote yet. They aren’t making reads but by obfuscating their posts, people can get the incorrect sense that they’re actually doing something.

So you're voting a gimmick account for playing to their gimmick?

I still think catboi could be scum. I really dislike the mistyx vote. The reasoning given was that she isn't acting as excited to roll town as she said which means absolutely nothing. The scumreads on red and Akari/Mara aren't good either. Both come across as easier pushes right now due to Red's low posting and gimmick, and Akari/Mara's lack of good explanation on the Bob vote. I'd expect town to question Akari/Mara, not immediately place a vote.

[Raya36]

I find red fine to read actually. Maybe our disagreement there is where the issue is. I found his posts that contained content were good. The nature of the gimmick would make it more difficult to post but I still see an effort.

[Raya36]

I find red fine to read actually. Maybe our disagreement there is where the issue is. I found his posts that contained content were good. The nature of the gimmick would make it more difficult to post but I still see an effort.

Alright, then can you be the Red whisperer and explain to me wtf you think he’s actually saying? All I got from his ISO is one post weirdly shading Titus and another one where the referenced bob who he also apparently didn’t like and I don’t think he explained that either.

He voted Titus then explained the reason was his overconfidence in the town reads. And then voted Bob for being evasive to my questions.

[Raya36]

I still think catboi could be scum. I really dislike the mistyx vote. The reasoning given was that she isn't acting as excited to roll town as she said which means absolutely nothing. The scumreads on red and Akari/Mara aren't good either. Both come across as easier pushes right now due to Red's low posting and gimmick, and Akari/Mara's lack of good explanation on the Bob vote. I'd expect town to question Akari/Mara, not immediately place a vote.

WE

HAVE

LESS

THAN

TWO

DAYS


If in talking to them I get the impression I am wrong and that they are town I will happily but at this point in time I believe the added pressure is a good thing.

（;≧皿≦）

I get we're pressed for time but I don't think the way you approached that vote was good. If you scumread red and mistyx too why not question them at the same time?

[Raya36]

as for the misty thing...her second post was about how "happy" she was to roll town, one of those early things people say to try to look town. Since then, this is what she's produced:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

A really underwhelming level of input that doesn't much seem to reflect what she said in her second post. Where is the enthusiasm? Where's the scumhunting? It's all very dispassionate.

Is it slight and maybe silly reasoning? Yes. But for an early game read I don't think it was bad and certainly wouldn't argue Misty has towntold.

I think that second post was more relief of not getting scum again rather than enthusiasm for getting town. But I do see where you're coming from about her iso being very underwhelming though.

[Raya36]

I find red fine to read actually. Maybe our disagreement there is where the issue is. I found his posts that contained content were good. The nature of the gimmick would make it more difficult to post but I still see an effort.

What about his two posts of real content was good?

Tit͞us̷'͟s ̸ey̨es ̷ẃer̵e͡ e͠g̶g̴s̨ of̷ ͏un̛s͡t̨abĺe͏ cry͝s͠t͟al҉, ́w͢h͜o̵s͟e͠ ͞n̴a͘m̕e͏ w͢a̶s͏ ̸po̴int̀i͏n͜g͞ ͏o҉ut t͝he ͏ơb͞v̸i͢o͞us̛, ͘a͢nd spo͟u̵ti̕n҉g͡ a ̨h͏um̢mi̢n̵g f͟or͡e̵s̴t̕ ͡ơf͞ ̧o҉v͜e̸rc̛oǹfide͢ņc̨e

This is fine for an early observation/read. Titus did display confidence when stating some people were town with no reasoning behind and while I don't necessarily agree with the read, Red didn't need to start posting AI content and could have slid by with more pure gimmick without raising much suspicion.

This is always such a silly line of questioning.

Do you think they have a greater chance of being scum than other players in the game? If so, why do you need my reasons?

If no, will me writing some reasons down be a genuine way of you reevaluating? Or is just rereading them yourself enough?

The first and greatest punishment of the sinner is the conscience of sin. whatever he might do, he should know Raya only asks to solve him. VOTE: wellermanbob

This is also fine, although surface level. My initial impression of Bob was that he was scummy for being evasive but when scum try to be evasive they aren't so blatant. But also in this post appears to be a townlean on me as it states I was trying to solve Bob.

[Raya36]

I find red fine to read actually. Maybe our disagreement there is where the issue is. I found his posts that contained content were good. The nature of the gimmick would make it more difficult to post but I still see an effort.

Alright, then can you be the Red whisperer and explain to me wtf you think he’s actually saying? All I got from his ISO is one post weirdly shading Titus and another one where the referenced bob who he also apparently didn’t like and I don’t think he explained that either.

He voted Titus then explained the reason was his overconfidence in the town reads. And then voted Bob for being evasive to my questions.

Okay I see your point but I don’t think that necessarily makes them town either because neither of those posts are something scum couldn’t make either. I also don’t share the view that Titus has been overconfident at all. I make reads like that all the time, I think that’s protown more than anything. Can you show me where bob was being “evasive”? I find his adversarial attitude kind’ve offputting so it’s difficult for me to discern that?

I already kind of expanded on the Titus part in my last post.

This is mainly what I'm referring to when I call Bob evasive but there are other smaller instances:

Yeah I definitely didn't know for sure if that meant you actually scumread them or not. Why do you scumread them?

This is always such a silly line of questioning.

Do you think they have a greater chance of being scum than other players in the game? If so, why do you need my reasons?

If no, will me writing some reasons down be a genuine way of you reevaluating? Or is just rereading them yourself enough?

[Raya36]

I find red fine to read actually. Maybe our disagreement there is where the issue is. I found his posts that contained content were good. The nature of the gimmick would make it more difficult to post but I still see an effort.

Alright, then can you be the Red whisperer and explain to me wtf you think he’s actually saying? All I got from his ISO is one post weirdly shading Titus and another one where the referenced bob who he also apparently didn’t like and I don’t think he explained that either.

He voted Titus then explained the reason was his overconfidence in the town reads. And then voted Bob for being evasive to my questions.

Okay I see your point but I don’t think that necessarily makes them town either because neither of those posts are something scum couldn’t make either. I also don’t share the view that Titus has been overconfident at all. I make reads like that all the time, I think that’s protown more than anything. Can you show me where bob was being “evasive”? I find his adversarial attitude kind’ve offputting so it’s difficult for me to discern that?

I already kind of expanded on the Titus part in my last post.

This is mainly what I'm referring to when I call Bob evasive but there are other smaller instances:

Yeah I definitely didn't know for sure if that meant you actually scumread them or not. Why do you scumread them?

This is always such a silly line of questioning.

Do you think they have a greater chance of being scum than other players in the game? If so, why do you need my reasons?

If no, will me writing some reasons down be a genuine way of you reevaluating? Or is just rereading them yourself enough?

Yeah, I kind’ve see what you mean here. This does somewhat concern me. If you’re going to hardpush a slot, you should be prepared to make a case against them rather then expect others to somehow telepathically understand what you’re seeing. This was precisely the point I was making about Chara that I can understand suspicion but bob is acting like it should be blatantly obvious to us all that IZ is scum and I think bob is confibiased on them based on a few opening posts and isn’t interested in re-evaluating. Chara otoh did re-evaluate her IZ read. I generally dislike emotional manipulation in general regardless of alignment so that may also be influencing me.

I'm really leaning towards Bob just having a different playstyle and not being necessarily scummy. Did we ever find out if Bob is an alt or from a different site?

[Raya36]

I find red fine to read actually. Maybe our disagreement there is where the issue is. I found his posts that contained content were good. The nature of the gimmick would make it more difficult to post but I still see an effort.

What about his two posts of real content was good?

Tit͞us̷'͟s ̸ey̨es ̷ẃer̵e͡ e͠g̶g̴s̨ of̷ ͏un̛s͡t̨abĺe͏ cry͝s͠t͟al҉, ́w͢h͜o̵s͟e͠ ͞n̴a͘m̕e͏ w͢a̶s͏ ̸po̴int̀i͏n͜g͞ ͏o҉ut t͝he ͏ơb͞v̸i͢o͞us̛, ͘a͢nd spo͟u̵ti̕n҉g͡ a ̨h͏um̢mi̢n̵g f͟or͡e̵s̴t̕ ͡ơf͞ ̧o҉v͜e̸rc̛oǹfide͢ņc̨e

This is fine for an early observation/read. Titus did display confidence when stating some people were town with no reasoning behind and while I don't necessarily agree with the read, Red didn't need to start posting AI content and could have slid by with more pure gimmick without raising much suspicion.

This is always such a silly line of questioning.

Do you think they have a greater chance of being scum than other players in the game? If so, why do you need my reasons?

If no, will me writing some reasons down be a genuine way of you reevaluating? Or is just rereading them yourself enough?

The first and greatest punishment of the sinner is the conscience of sin. whatever he might do, he should know Raya only asks to solve him. VOTE: wellermanbob

This is also fine, although surface level. My initial impression of Bob was that he was scummy for being evasive but when scum try to be evasive they aren't so blatant. But also in this post appears to be a townlean on me as it states I was trying to solve Bob.

Do you think bob is scum? I think if anyone seems overconfident in this game so far, it’s bob on his IZ scumread.

UNVOTE:

I don't think his overconfidence points to him being scum. But whether he's an alt or coming from a different site will have influence on this read.

[Raya36]

Ok, in that case because most other sites seem to tend toward shorter deadlines if I'm not mistaken, Bob is more likely appearing scummy here due to a different site meta. I'm not necessarily leaning town on him but I no longer feel he is scummy.

[Raya36]

I don't think jj's post was bad. Wouldn't scum being trying to push at least somebody? I don't see scum pointing out townreads but failing to scumread anyone.

[Raya36]

being trying to push at least somebody

Why?

Because scum want a miselim. If town is already pushing in that direction then sure, that's great. But scum still want some of their own scumreads so they can push something when on of their team is under suspicion.

[Raya36]

I don't think jj's post was bad. Wouldn't scum being trying to push at least somebody? I don't see scum pointing out townreads but failing to scumread anyone.

I think the lack of scumreads part is NAI but that the number of townreads may be town indicative because scum doesn’t like to townread too many people.

That's also what I was thinking to failed to mention

[Raya36]

being trying to push at least somebody

Why?

Because scum want a miselim. If town is already pushing in that direction then sure, that's great. But scum still want some of their own scumreads so they can push something when on of their team is under suspicion.

Actually, scum don't need to do anything, simply not getting eliminated themselves is good enough. Giving the game a lack of momentum to actually get any elimination is good enough and right now there's a bunch of people who haven't really said much. But I guess I could just never vote and be the towniest town to you?

But having scumreads can help them not get eliminated if momentum swings towards them. That's not close to the only thing I consider so it wouldn't make you the towniest to me.

[Raya36]

going purely from memory:

mistyx - scum
titus - town
vaxkiller - scum
chara - gut town
wellermanbob - town
raya36 - townlean
somke and mirrors - gut town
red - scumlean
perfume - nothing
jjh - vague scumlean
infinity zero - townlean
twins akari and mara - actually felt like her response to my vote was kind of town?

Probably need to read back to flesh some of these out, but decided to just go off the top of my head here to start.

This felt town. UNVOTE:
What makes Vax scum?

[Raya36]

It's a weak read but reevaluating on the twins was good and just giving out a list off the top of your head reads more as something town would want to do as it makes it more difficult for scum to make changes or show progression to seem town

[Raya36]

VOTE: jjh

If we're offering up our pet random wagons before we all have to converge later today then here is mine

I'm against a jj elimination.

[Raya36]

I'm also against a twins elimination

[Raya36]

I'm not happy with the jj or twins wagon. I'd be willing to go back to cat but I don't feel as bad as I did before with this slot.

I'm not sure if this is still a viable wagon or not but I'm not liking Vax. I didn't like the Titus vote. Titus has felt town to me and it felt opportunistic as well. The unvoting for simply posting more is bad too. He next places his vote on Infinity, another slot I light townread and another opportunistic vote. Later he voted the twins as the 5th vote which is again opportunistic. He also gave no reasoning for this vote and seemingly hadn't been caught up. When he switches votes again later he says he doesn't even understand the twins wagon but he'd still be willing to go back to it? The it's Mistyx without any reasoning which again already had a wagon forming and opportunistic. He mentions how little time we have then proceeds with fluffy posts. Then joins the jj wagon, who I light townread, without any reasoning given again.

VOTE: Vax

[Raya36]

I don't feel it's been slow, and even if you believe this how does it affect your reads? Are you comfortable with the people who have been posting more?

I have quite a few townleans on active people. I think because this is a slow game, it benefits scum to post less so that they don't inadvertently get the game moving, increasing townies' motivations and generating more content with which they can be caught. Not all scum think like this, so it's kind of a weak thing, but it makes me a bit more comfortable to have less active players in my PoE.

I also think there's a problem of like, if the scum are in the more active players, they haven't been scummy enough to get caught yet, so it's hard to tell which ones. I think arguing that a specific active player is scummy would be more helpful than just saying that limming in the lurkers is a bad idea. I think chara has been very scummy but not many people agree with me, so I'm ok just voting people who haven't towntold yet.

-Inf

I'm feeling the same way about the active players. Scum is doing well at hiding right now assuming there is scum among that group.

I don't feel it's been slow, and even if you believe this how does it affect your reads? Are you comfortable with the people who have been posting more?

I have quite a few townleans on active people. I think because this is a slow game, it benefits scum to post less so that they don't inadvertently get the game moving, increasing townies' motivations and generating more content with which they can be caught. Not all scum think like this, so it's kind of a weak thing, but it makes me a bit more comfortable to have less active players in my PoE.

I also think there's a problem of like, if the scum are in the more active players, they haven't been scummy enough to get caught yet, so it's hard to tell which ones. I think arguing that a specific active player is scummy would be more helpful than just saying that limming in the lurkers is a bad idea.

I think chara has been very scummy but not many people agree with me, so I'm ok just voting people who haven't towntold yet.

-Inf

Go with this thought? I wasn't merely offering my thoughts in a way that seemed like biting criticism. I don't disagree with your assumption made in regards of what scum could possibly be doing, and it's something I've noted. I do however think that purely at a meta level this PList again has a ton of people like (Misty) who love being town and I'd really expect a hell of a lot more. I keep exclusively mentioning her which actually kinda annoys me because I don't wanna end up compromising on someone like Misty, but I will do it and my vote is there to say 'Misty, show up and be town or just die'. I have one or two reads I'm keeping to myself for now besides that.

My thing with Misty is that if she knows she's generally very enthusiastic as town why would scum!Misty announce that she's happy to be town only to not try to show that. The only reason I see scum!Misty announcing that at the start is to draw attention to it and prove it. Not draw attention only to do the opposite and therefore appear scummy. For that reason she reads more as initially genuinely excited to be town but maybe feeling disengaged with the game or maybe busy, who knows.

I'm very against eliminating Chara

[Raya36]

From the main wagons:

Willing to eliminate: Vax -> cat -> Twins as a compromise

Against eliminating: Chara -> Mistyx -> jj

[Raya36]

OK Raya, you're my strongest townread so I'm fine with going with you

VOTE: Vax

Do you agree with my read and points made against Vax?

[Raya36]

Willing to eliminate: Vax -> cat -> Twins as a compromise

Strong preference for A&M of those 3 tbh? Though I guess I'm not allowed to be that picky but Vaxkiller early posting was happy posting so unless they love Pokémon or love playing scum its probtown.

Cat has been the voice of reason so unless my reads are way off is also probtown.

I don't think happy posting is a tell. I was quite active and I guess happy posting in my last game where I was scum because I enjoy playing scum. Could be the same case

[Raya36]

OK Raya, you're my strongest townread so I'm fine with going with you

VOTE: Vax

Do you agree with my read and points made against Vax?

I liked it, but generally speaking my thought on Vax just again amounts to 'being really fucking weird'

Alright, just making sure this isn't a pure sheep vote

[Raya36]

Maybe we all go back to mystic?

I'm ok with vax too

I'd really prefer not eliminating mistyx. I'm all for pressure there but now is not the time for that

[Raya36]

Vaxkiller doesn't strike me as a scum loving player

Is that based on first impressions or did you read into some meta?

[Raya36]

meta

Don't talk to me or my son again

?

[Raya36]

Vax's claim hasn't changed my opinion about him

[Raya36]

I'll be around until deadline as well

[Raya36]

What's the point in switching to Chara when there's 3 minutes left?

[Raya36]

But also to read into Vax posting they seemed a bit mad to be at E-1...which is why I'm not thinking that wagon was pure

This is an interesting observation and I think I agree

jjh927, Catboi, Raya36, unwnd, Twins Akari and Mara, Titus

jj I still think is town.

Catboi's rvs was Vax. Would scum rvs their partner? Catboi was also on and off Vax throughout the day. It didn't feel like distancing and any interactions didn't feel svs.

unwnd - town

Twins never said anything about a vax read and then were ok with voting vax and voted there towards the end. This could be a partner?

Titus pushed a little at Vax early on. Also he stated that perfume and vax can't be scum together. If Titus was scum with Vax he would likely push perfume and use that as an excuse to townread vax after making that statement. I don't see an agenda in the thought process.

VOTE: Twins

I agree Infinity isn't likely scum and Vax was likely hard bussed by some and that scum, at some point could have agreed there was no saving him.

I think Booneytunes is a great game to reference for meta VCA if there can be such a thing as Vax's reaction was similar here.

I don't think Vax was ever in an unsavable position until the very end?

[Raya36]

I was gonna say that the scumflip makes me more confident that a bunch of people on that wagon were town, but 827 is a good point. I'm not sure how scum bus d1, but I don't think raya and catboi are likely scum on the wagon. Raya because she was pretty widely townread, and earlier in the day I had voted catboi with the fact that raya was on the wagon as a major reason. It doesn't make a ton of sense to bus in that situation when you can use your towncred to push a miselim without a ton of accountability. Catboi looks good because 700 is kind of a townslip. Catboi was already voting vax at the time, and I'd think scum would remember if their vote was on a scum buddy, especially at that point in the game. Both me and gamma also strongly TR S&M on play. I think the soft is +town for chara, although it's sort of an odd time for town to soft. I'll talk to gamma about who we think is scum.

-Inf

I definitely agree with your catboi analysis and your analysis of me was good. How was 700 a townslip though?

[Raya36]

Why are we offing ona wagon?

VOTE: twins

If Mistyx is scum here, Vax is probably her buddy.

Seems like a stretch to me honestly. Vax has been weird but I'm not settled on what it all means.

I’m less sure on him but Mistix scumread CB for pushing Vax on his Titus’ read and now she makes it a point of saying that she dislikes his vote - on a slot she claimed to have 0 thoughts about - but she votes CB.

Why did Mistyx react that strongly to CB pushing Vax on his Titus’s read and why does she make it a point of saying she dislikes Vax’s vote on a slot she has no read on? I just find her positioning around Vax strange. It’s possible he could be town but if she’s scum, it wouldn’t at all shock me if Vax is her buddy based on that.

Id vote mystix.

I'm in a weird spot. I did a driveby yesterday because why not? But actually reading, I don't get the push on the twins. HOWEVER, I'm with good company on this wagon. I could toatally vote catboi, but, most of the people on that wagon I don't feel great about either, so it's pretty meh.

VOTE: mystix

this is the Twins stuff

I was actually just asking you about this. I don't see how this makes the twins town

[Raya36]

How was 700 a townslip though?

Just that they were already voting vax and I'd expect a scumbuddy to remember that

-Inf

Makes sense. I thought the quote was referring to the text as well, not just the vote. I agree then

[Raya36]

I was actually just asking you about this. I don't see how this makes the twins town

don't think they pop in to keep momentum going on twins if twins is their partner

It's an easy way to distance

[Raya36]

Super quick off wagon notes:

chara didn't seem super enthusiastic about the Vax wagon. Said they were ok with it but never actually voted and didn't give any reason why they were ok with it until the claim and it was too late. Could be a partner.

wellermanbob was against the vax wagon but it seemed more of in an incorrect way than an agenda way.

mistyx didn't like Vax from the start. Maybe distancing?

infinity zero pushed against the vax wagon.

smoke and mirrors mostly pushed against Vax. There was some reevaluation that felt towny. Do you still believe that Vax and Mistyx could be partners?

red, nothing

[Raya36]

I was actually just asking you about this. I don't see how this makes the twins town

don't think they pop in to keep momentum going on twins if twins is their partner

It's an easy way to distance

At the time, there was a very real possibility that akara would get limmed I think

-Inf

Maybe you're right. I'll move here instead then
VOTE: Chara

[Raya36]

Wouldn't Unwnd's death incriminate the Twins and Mistyx?
I thought someone said Titus but I'm not seeing that

[Raya36]

I'm thinking at least 1 scum is in the Twins, Mistyx, Chara, Red

[Raya36]

Wouldn't Unwnd's death incriminate the Twins and Mistyx?
I thought someone said Titus but I'm not seeing that

My thinking is someone who had sizable experwince with town!unwnd is scum here
Which from an objective viewpoint would point to me (Gamma) and Titus, and from my POV that kinda leaves Titus as prime suspect (unless Vaxkiller left a strong argument for killing unwnd in the scum PT before getting limmed)
-Protocol

Right, that makes sense. It is very possible Titus gave nightkill input early though.

[Raya36]

Not Titus, I meant Vax

[Raya36]

i think like

infinity > raya > red > s&m is how i'd order my list from earlier from best to worst

but im probably omgusing at least a little

I disagree almost completely

[Raya36]

Can someone explain this oblivious thing to me? I'm lost

[Raya36]

Its an ability. I have it. Vax claimed it and it doesn't do what he said it does.

Chara alluded to something being off in Vax's claim too so im assuming its that but we will see

That could make sense then. I follow now
UNVOTE:

[Raya36]

so Raya pushed Vax probably the most, i feel dumb.

If this is genuine then Chara is probably not Vax's partner. I'd assume Vax's partners would be well aware of who pushed him.

[Raya36]

i feel like i can see exactly where the misunderstanding is here but i don't think it's bad to let you two discuss it a little.

pedit: that's to Gamma.

pedit again: you would be surprised at the things i forget in general. i'd call it NAI.

Well ok, good to know

[Raya36]

Chara was a scum read yesterday but now, I'm unsure of that read. The posts chara makes today gives them some town points that may be genuine.

I don't remember much about the interaction between Raya and vax, but I think it was practically non-existent

I moved the momentum to Vax... and because of me moving the momentum there and Unwnd townreading and joining me Vax got eliminated...

I'm not happy with the jj or twins wagon. I'd be willing to go back to cat but I don't feel as bad as I did before with this slot.

I'm not sure if this is still a viable wagon or not but I'm not liking Vax. I didn't like the Titus vote. Titus has felt town to me and it felt opportunistic as well. The unvoting for simply posting more is bad too. He next places his vote on Infinity, another slot I light townread and another opportunistic vote. Later he voted the twins as the 5th vote which is again opportunistic. He also gave no reasoning for this vote and seemingly hadn't been caught up. When he switches votes again later he says he doesn't even understand the twins wagon but he'd still be willing to go back to it? The it's Mistyx without any reasoning which again already had a wagon forming and opportunistic. He mentions how little time we have then proceeds with fluffy posts. Then joins the jj wagon, who I light townread, without any reasoning given again.

VOTE: Vax

[Raya36]

Its way past maras bed time and it's probably affecting her memory.

Mara just did a quick iso on Raya and they did talk about the evil vax man but it was very super late.

Mara is also confused how they go from being not ok with bullying mara to bullying to the point where mara is forced to leave

Is the bullying thing referring to me?

[Raya36]

I'm thinking at least 1 scum is in the Twins, Mistyx, Chara, Red

Well, you already know who I think that is.

I’m actually not sure Titus would be mean to me as scum. Her reaction to me - albeit really hurtful - is giving me doubts.

It’s still of course possible and she was really upset with me in House Party so probably not a good reason for tr her.

Can you quickly go over why Mistyx is Vax's partner?

[Raya36]

Post 831 Raya pushes mara shortly after titus pushes mara

Ignore my question a couple posts ago. You answer here. This is PoE assuming 1 scum was on the wagon.

[Raya36]

chara feels like a slot i'm going to have as light town at eod and then come into tomorrow scumreading

no this is not a read

Misty, if it wasn't clear i was asking why you wanted to vote catboi.

the response questioning vax felt kinda like it was just there to be there and wasn't actually solving, plus nothing else in their ISO had stuck out to me by that point

here

He was trying to get Vax to clarify his Titus’ read. That’s how it looked to me.

i thought it wasn't really a worthwhile question

chara feels like a slot i'm going to have as light town at eod and then come into tomorrow scumreading

no this is not a read

Back to not liking your posting. :/

good for you

VOTE COUNT 1 . 12

• Vaxkiller
  ------------ 6 ( jjh927, Catboi, Raya36, unwnd, Infinity Zero, Twins Akari and Mara )
  
  Twins Akari and Mara
  - 3 ( Chara, Titus, Wellermanbob )
  
  Chara
  ---------------- 1 ( Mistyx )
  
  jjh927
  --------------- 1 ( Vaxkiller )
  
  Mistyx
  --------------- 1 ( Smoke and Mirrors )
  
  Wellermanbob
  --------- 1 ( Red )
  
  Catboi
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Red
  ------------------ 0 ( No One )
  
  Titus
  ---------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Infinity Zero
  -------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Raya36
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  unwnd
  ---------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Smoke and Mirrors
  ---- 0 ( No One )
  
  
  
  Not Voting
  ----------- 0 ( No One )

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-01-11 20:01:00)

Vax is at E -1.

And Mistyx and Vax have the worst votes.

and yet no comment on the actual earlier jjh/chara wagons

okay

Mistyx, why did you neve vote vax?

-Inf

that's not really a question i can directly answer

Titus
Catboi
Raya36
Smoke and Mirrors
Red
Jjh927
Infinity Zero
Twins Akari and Mara

removed self, dead players, chara/wellerman

removing titus/catboi/jjh/twins gives us

raya/s&m/red/infinity

i like that list tbh

i think like

infinity > raya > red > s&m is how i'd order my list from earlier from best to worst

but im probably omgusing at least a little

VOTE: Mistyx

If this flips town, you can mislim me.

852 in that series of posts doesn't make sense to me from scum!Mistyx

[Raya36]

VOTE: Red

Why?

[Raya36]

I'm not ok with the slot dying yet but I want more participation from the slot to make that decision

[Raya36]

Hello Red, I'd love to hear some reads or maybe thoughts on the Vax wagon etc

[Raya36]

VOTE: Chara

[Raya36]

If Red did have a guilty on Chara wouldn't it make sense for Chara to claim something very different than what Red suggested? Intimidate and Iron Head aren't exactly what I'd call weapons of mass destruction.

[Raya36]

Plus it makes no sense for scum!Red to claim a guilty. Once we miselim Chara their best chances would be a narrative about it being a false guilty. But I don't think scum would be so set on that particular miselim to try to pull this off.

[Raya36]

my ability is Intimidate, in a battle i decrease the opponent's attack by 1.
i have one move, Iron Head, it has a 30% chance of skipping my opponent's attack. so basically, it has the flinch effect.

i don't have much time for mafia tonight, but i'll be here tomorrow.

VOTE: Red

@mod, probably silly question but do scum have fake claims?

When I was scum in Undertale, we got full fakeclaims so this is why I think this could be that, it doesn’t look like anything they just made up.

Yeah I agree. It looks well thought out and also it would make sense as a fakeclaim since it doesn't fit with what Red said.

[Raya36]

We just let it resolve anyway, if Red doesn't retract then either Chara is mafia or he is.

Yeah, unless it was a false guilty then we just have a 50/50 situation

[Raya36]

@mod, probably silly question but do scum have fake claims?

No.

Wow, then that claim is super impressive. Chara’s lack of an emotional reaction to Red’s guilty is interesting. If someone were to ever fake a guilty on me - has only ever happened on MU before - I will definitely make them regret it but I’m obviously not Chara but in that specific MU game, I pretty much gave the scum who tried to push through a fake guilty on me no choice but to completely retract it.

However, as Raya says, I think Red’s guilty is probably legit, plus Chara seems much too chill for a townie with a fake guilty on them.

Yeah it does feel like Chara is trying to appear relaxed

[Raya36]

We just let it resolve anyway, if Red doesn't retract then either Chara is mafia or he is.

Yeah, unless it was a false guilty then we just have a 50/50 situation

Fake guilties tend to be more vague so scum can walk it back but Red’s was extremely specific, which usually means it’s real.

I agree that Red's guilty is probably real but it wasn't really that specific

[Raya36]

if red/chara t/t i dislike everyone who immediately voted chara after they claimed

which is inf/raya/s+m

i think inf looks bad for their reaction to the claim if red is town at all actually

i want to talk about 1147/1148 a bit - raya, s+m, can you explain why that logic doesn't apply to scum!chara as well? and wouldn't it be more likely that town!chara told the truth about their claim if they knew the red check wasn't real?

1147 was referring to scum!Chara. I feel like town!Chara would have more to say than just a claim if they were wrongly guiltied. It feels like scum!Chara claimed and left it at just that to avoid giving more info or further incriminating themselves.

[Raya36]

if red/chara t/t i dislike everyone who immediately voted chara after they claimed

which is inf/raya/s+m

i think inf looks bad for their reaction to the claim if red is town at all actually

i want to talk about 1147/1148 a bit - raya, s+m, can you explain why that logic doesn't apply to scum!chara as well? and wouldn't it be more likely that town!chara told the truth about their claim if they knew the red check wasn't real?

1147 was referring to scum!Chara. I feel like town!Chara would have more to say than just a claim if they were wrongly guiltied. It feels like scum!Chara claimed and left it at just that to avoid giving more info or further incriminating themselves.

so if you think scum!chara would react differently to being guiltied...

why are you voting them?

I said I think scum!Chara would claim the opposite of what Red claimed them to be. And that's exactly what Chara did

[Raya36]

Red claimed Chara has a weapon of mass destruction and Chara's claim was mostly around defense. Makes sense from Scum!Chara because it makes them appear more innocent and less of a threat and is also dramatically different than the guilty claim

[Raya36]

why raya, and why not titus?

i had titus as town because the way she handled her claim felt pro-town, plus her push on perfume felt internally consistent

i also liked her vote on vax

Tbf I had Titus in my lower TR tier
But I felt like townbinning her was too much atp
Meanwhile Raya’s Vax vote was one Infinity quickly pegged as town and I felt good about her contributions from what I read. So if you liked Titus’ vote you should have liked Raya’s too. Nancy was calling out Titus for playing in a way that suggested she needed to push specific miselims but I think your PoE was too wide and that suggests you’re trying to leave more miselim options open.
-Protocol

i've been burned by players by raya a lot before so i don't think the level of contribution is something clearing

so who are the mislims i'm trying to keep available then

You are seriously arguing that scum!Raya NKs the player who has her as his strongest tr?

i think that argument applies more strongly to scum who might be substantially pushed the next day

raya wasn't in a bad enough thread position to need unwnd defending her

Mistyx, you're wrong here. I wasn't in a position that I needed to towncred for pushing the momentum to my partner. And unless for the sake of my other partner I wouldn't NK someone who townreads me strong enough to basically sheep me.

[Raya36]

Red claimed Chara has a weapon of mass destruction and Chara's claim was mostly around defense. Makes sense from Scum!Chara because it makes them appear more innocent and less of a threat and is also dramatically different than the guilty claim

it directly contradicts red's result

how does that make them look like less of a threat

Read their claim and tell me if that makes you feel threatened. Red says Chara is a mass murderer and has a weapon of mass destruction. Chara comes back and claims to be innocent and has has abilities like flinch and reducing the opponent's attack. All around defense. Helpless in the sense of murder. If Chara is scum here it's very smart

[Raya36]

unless for the sake of my other partner

i think this is a reasonable enough possibility that the argument isn't clearing

Ok then if you're only point against me is that I NKed Unwnd for the sake of my partner then by that logic Unwnd was strongly scumreading my supposed partner right? So who's my partner I was so desperate to save by NKing the person who townreads me the most. Also if that's your only point against me then couldn't that apply to literally anyone..

[Raya36]

if red/chara t/t i dislike everyone who immediately voted chara after they claimed

which is inf/raya/s+m

i think inf looks bad for their reaction to the claim if red is town at all actually

i want to talk about 1147/1148 a bit - raya, s+m, can you explain why that logic doesn't apply to scum!chara as well? and wouldn't it be more likely that town!chara told the truth about their claim if they knew the red check wasn't real?

How tf could Red/Chara be tvt here? Red is claiming a guilty on them? Otoh, saying that about me/Titus would actually make sense. Nothing you’re saying here is making an iota of sense.

You have 2 players - one of whom claimed an actual guilty on the other. In what world are you possibly reading that as tvt? *Head explodes*

Chara/Misty team?

[Raya36]

Red claimed Chara has a weapon of mass destruction and Chara's claim was mostly around defense. Makes sense from Scum!Chara because it makes them appear more innocent and less of a threat and is also dramatically different than the guilty claim

it directly contradicts red's result

how does that make them look like less of a threat

Read their claim and tell me if that makes you feel threatened. Red says Chara is a mass murderer and has a weapon of mass destruction. Chara comes back and claims to be innocent and has has abilities like flinch and reducing the opponent's attack. All around defense. Helpless in the sense of murder. If Chara is scum here it's very smart

if chara is scum it's not smart because they just get killed for their claim contradicting red

if chara was scum and wanted to not die by d3 they would claim something that is a weapon of destruction because it's a very blatant gunsmith soft so they would claim vig or something

No, if Chara is scum they want their claim to contradict or else everyone will just believe the guilty because it's close enough to the claim to be possible. It's a 1v1 between red and chara with very little chance of it being called tvt. I think you're scum with Chara trying to pull off this narrative though

[Raya36]

maybe its just red/chara both scum

And draw that much attention to themselves and almost guarantee 1 elimed?

[Raya36]

because of the vax flip d1 i found it easier to clear people than feel strongly about killing them this game so i've been playing this game from the top down

you're in my PoE because i don't have a strong reason to clear you

Alright, benefit of the doubt it's just because of my pov but I feel my push against Vax should be enough

[Raya36]

Red claimed Chara has a weapon of mass destruction and Chara's claim was mostly around defense. Makes sense from Scum!Chara because it makes them appear more innocent and less of a threat and is also dramatically different than the guilty claim

it directly contradicts red's result

how does that make them look like less of a threat

Read their claim and tell me if that makes you feel threatened. Red says Chara is a mass murderer and has a weapon of mass destruction. Chara comes back and claims to be innocent and has has abilities like flinch and reducing the opponent's attack. All around defense. Helpless in the sense of murder. If Chara is scum here it's very smart

if chara is scum it's not smart because they just get killed for their claim contradicting red

if chara was scum and wanted to not die by d3 they would claim something that is a weapon of destruction because it's a very blatant gunsmith soft so they would claim vig or something

No, if Chara is scum they want their claim to contradict or else everyone will just believe the guilty because it's close enough to the claim to be possible. It's a 1v1 between red and chara with very little chance of it being called tvt. I think you're scum with Chara trying to pull off this narrative though

why do they want to contradict

that just ensures they die either today or after red

Chara is getting elimed either way. Contradicting gives them a better chance to not be eliminated first in my opinion. There's almost no chance Chara/Red is tvt. So whatever order we eliminate, Chara gets eliminated.

[Raya36]

Personally, if Chara claimed vig I would've voted right away too. This also all depends on what result Red actually got. If Red got a guilty and the weapon of mass destruction is just his personal flavour then this argument is pointless because the guilty no longer alludes to a gun. If Red got only that Chara has a weapon then the vig claim could work because both scum and vig could fit into that guilty claim.

[Raya36]

Personally, if Chara claimed vig I would've voted right away too. This also all depends on what result Red actually got. If Red got a guilty and the weapon of mass destruction is just his personal flavour then this argument is pointless because the guilty no longer alludes to a gun. If Red got only that Chara has a weapon then the vig claim could work because both scum and vig could fit into that guilty claim.

okay but i'd like to point out that chara wouldn't know the nature of red's check

so they'd be more likely to claim something that fits with like

any investigative

instead of this

Maybe they have reason to believe that Red's claim is just flavour. That's what I assumed at a first read. The guilty is very similar format to a couple of his other posts in terms of the gimmick

[Raya36]

Which would make claiming a vig role very risky because what if Red's next posts says the weapon thing was just gimmick. Then suddenly Chara's claim "coincidentally" lined up with the gimmick

[Raya36]

Which would make claiming a vig role very risky because what if Red's next posts says the weapon thing was just gimmick. Then suddenly Chara's claim "coincidentally" lined up with the gimmick

yeah that makes sense

okay i get your logic now

So again, playing the innocent card is a very smart move from scum!Chara

[Raya36]

Does scum!Mistyx clear me when their PoE is already small?

[Raya36]

Does scum!Mistyx clear me when their PoE is already small?

don't think this is a question worth answering

everyone who doesn't have meta on me will have this colored by their established reads and i don't think anyone who does have meta has seen me in a position like this as scum

More of a rhetorical question for myself

[Raya36]

if red/chara t/t i dislike everyone who immediately voted chara after they claimed

which is inf/raya/s+m

i think inf looks bad for their reaction to the claim if red is town at all actually

i want to talk about 1147/1148 a bit - raya, s+m, can you explain why that logic doesn't apply to scum!chara as well? and wouldn't it be more likely that town!chara told the truth about their claim if they knew the red check wasn't real?

How tf could Red/Chara be tvt here? Red is claiming a guilty on them? Otoh, saying that about me/Titus would actually make sense. Nothing you’re saying here is making an iota of sense.

You have 2 players - one of whom claimed an actual guilty on the other. In what world are you possibly reading that as tvt? *Head explodes*

Chara/Misty team?

It definitely looks like it to me and explains the Red guilty and why everyone else seems town. Town!Mistyx usually has reads that are grounded in logic and make sense. Her posts don’t appear to be coming from a townie mindset. She’s shading you, Gamma for reasons that make absolutely no sense to me.

It just feels too obvious. Scum aren't this obvious..

[Raya36]

Does scum!Mistyx clear me when their PoE is already small?

Scum will push whomever they can. If they see that their attempts to push one slot are falling on deaf ears, why not try to look good clearing them?

Yeah this is true. Just feels like scum!Mistyx would keep their options a little more open and try to blend in a little better. I'm not fully confident that Mistyx is Chara's partner

[Raya36]

if red/chara t/t i dislike everyone who immediately voted chara after they claimed

which is inf/raya/s+m

i think inf looks bad for their reaction to the claim if red is town at all actually

i want to talk about 1147/1148 a bit - raya, s+m, can you explain why that logic doesn't apply to scum!chara as well? and wouldn't it be more likely that town!chara told the truth about their claim if they knew the red check wasn't real?

How tf could Red/Chara be tvt here? Red is claiming a guilty on them? Otoh, saying that about me/Titus would actually make sense. Nothing you’re saying here is making an iota of sense.

You have 2 players - one of whom claimed an actual guilty on the other. In what world are you possibly reading that as tvt? *Head explodes*

Chara/Misty team?

It definitely looks like it to me and explains the Red guilty and why everyone else seems town. Town!Mistyx usually has reads that are grounded in logic and make sense. Her posts don’t appear to be coming from a townie mindset. She’s shading you, Gamma for reasons that make absolutely no sense to me.

It just feels too obvious. Scum aren't this obvious..

Should I link you to CoD game where that was indeed the case with D & D?

Sure, I can skim it to see

[Raya36]

I think where I'm at right now is this (Assuming I'm correct that Chara is scum and Red is town)

Town: Red, Catboi, Infinity Zero, Mistyx
Null/PoE: Titus, Bob, S&M, JJ, Twins
Scum: Chara

For the sake of Mistyx progression, as much as I disagree with her current stance, I don't think it makes much sense from scum

[Raya36]

That's right. JJ can go to town as well

[Raya36]

I don't think Mistyx's stance makes sense to be scum. My worry about you is honestly more paranoia than anything. There's a few other things that I need to think about and expand on first before I can put it into words. Can you show those posts again?

[Raya36]

That's right. JJ can go to town as well

i would also clear twins out of your null list

i think the way vax jumped onto the wagon was not a bus

Couldn't it have been distancing with the way Vax left the wagon after they got back?

[Raya36]

I'm not happy with the jj or twins wagon. I'd be willing to go back to cat but I don't feel as bad as I did before with this slot.

I'm not sure if this is still a viable wagon or not but I'm not liking Vax. I didn't like the Titus vote. Titus has felt town to me and it felt opportunistic as well. The unvoting for simply posting more is bad too. He next places his vote on Infinity, another slot I light townread and another opportunistic vote. Later he voted the twins as the 5th vote which is again opportunistic. He also gave no reasoning for this vote and seemingly hadn't been caught up. When he switches votes again later he says he doesn't even understand the twins wagon but he'd still be willing to go back to it? The it's Mistyx without any reasoning which again already had a wagon forming and opportunistic. He mentions how little time we have then proceeds with fluffy posts. Then joins the jj wagon, who I light townread, without any reasoning given again.

VOTE: Vax

I’m still not liking Mistyx but not opposed.

VOTE COUNT 1 . 12

• Vaxkiller
  ------------ 6 ( jjh927, Catboi, Raya36, unwnd, Infinity Zero, Twins Akari and Mara )
  
  Twins Akari and Mara
  - 3 ( Chara, Titus, Wellermanbob )
  
  Chara
  ---------------- 1 ( Mistyx )
  
  jjh927
  --------------- 1 ( Vaxkiller )
  
  Mistyx
  --------------- 1 ( Smoke and Mirrors )
  
  Wellermanbob
  --------- 1 ( Red )
  
  Catboi
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Red
  ------------------ 0 ( No One )
  
  Titus
  ---------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Infinity Zero
  -------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Raya36
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  unwnd
  ---------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Smoke and Mirrors
  ---- 0 ( No One )
  
  
  
  Not Voting
  ----------- 0 ( No One )

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-01-11 20:01:00)

Vax is at E -1.

And Mistyx and Vax have the worst votes.

Oh look here, I’m shadinf my “buddy”.

@Raya

And obviously if Chara flips scum, Mistix vote wasn’t bad.

There's still a tiny bit of doubt here. Vax didn't have much of a chance at this point so a buddy shading or hardbussing isn't unreasonable

[Raya36]

That's right. JJ can go to town as well

i would also clear twins out of your null list

i think the way vax jumped onto the wagon was not a bus

Couldn't it have been distancing with the way Vax left the wagon after they got back?

i think he just jumped off because he got backlash for the vote and couldn't justify it further

Ok that makes sense and has a good chance of being the case

[Raya36]

So that leaves Bob, Titus, and maybe S&M

[Raya36]

So that leaves Bob, Titus,

and maybe S&M

Tell me where I'm wrong in 1392

[Raya36]

Maybe I am bad at reading you but I'm going to need more than you can't possibly be Vax's buddy because you shaded him when he was at E-1 towards the end of the day

[Raya36]

I said I have a few things I'm worried about but I need to do a reread of your iso to gather my thoughts and word it. I'll do this at some point today. I don't have any meta on you

[Raya36]

I said I have a few things I'm worried about but I need to do a reread of your iso to gather my thoughts and word it. I'll do this at some point today. I don't have any meta on you

Part of it which is sort of paranoia based is while I appreciated trying to solve Mistyx together and the conversations around that from earlier, part of me is worried that you were leading me away

[Raya36]

I still think catboi could be scum. I really dislike the mistyx vote. The reasoning given was that she isn't acting as excited to roll town as she said which means absolutely nothing. The scumreads on red and Akari/Mara aren't good either. Both come across as easier pushes right now due to Red's low posting and gimmick, and Akari/Mara's lack of good explanation on the Bob vote. I'd expect town to question Akari/Mara, not immediately place a vote.

WE

HAVE

LESS

THAN

TWO

DAYS


If in talking to them I get the impression I am wrong and that they are town I will happily but at this point in time I believe the added pressure is a good thing.

（;≧皿≦）

I get we're pressed for time but I don't think the way you approached that vote was good. If you scumread red and mistyx too why not question them at the same time?

I think that A & M are doing more sorting than both Red and Mystix put together and I’m really not picking up and particular agenday vibes from them, so I don’t think they’re a good flip for today

.

@Raya, do you seriously think scum!me makes this post about the really only viable counterwagon to Vax?

At this point Vax only had 1 vote. Infinity, Catboi, and Red all were viable counter wagons to A&M who you didn't want

VOTE COUNT 1 . 10

• Twins Akari and Mara
  - 3 ( Chara, Titus, Catboi )
  
  Infinity Zero
  -------- 2 ( Wellermanbob, Vaxkiller )
  
  Red
  ------------------ 2 ( Twins Akari and Mara )
  
  Catboi
  --------------- 2 ( Raya36, Infinity Zero )
  
  Wellermanbob
  --------- 1 ( Red )
  
  Titus
  ---------------- 1 ( Perfume )
  
  Vaxkiller
  ------------ 1 ( jjh927 )
  
  Mistyx
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Chara
  ---------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Raya36
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Perfume
  -------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Smoke and Mirrors
  ---- 0 ( No One )
  
  jjh927
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  
  
  Not Voting
  ----------- 2 ( Mistyx, Smoke and Mirrors )

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to Flip
Deadline is in (expired on 2021-01-11 20:01:00)

[Raya36]

Honestly what’s most concerning about Mistyx’s handling of the gamestate is she’s attempting to tie the red and chara slots together
If they’re TvS (which I’m thinking rn) that doesn’t look great imo
-Protocol

Well that’s the main thing I couldn’t wrap my head around. How do you logically read 2 slots as tvt when one of those slots claims to have an extremely specific hard guilty on the other?

So, Raya tr her > me is whack.

But why wuld scum!Mistyx suggest this? It's not going to get her towncred. It caused a lot of backlash, if we eliminate Chara and they're scum it'll just incriminate her.

[Raya36]

I still think catboi could be scum. I really dislike the mistyx vote. The reasoning given was that she isn't acting as excited to roll town as she said which means absolutely nothing. The scumreads on red and Akari/Mara aren't good either. Both come across as easier pushes right now due to Red's low posting and gimmick, and Akari/Mara's lack of good explanation on the Bob vote. I'd expect town to question Akari/Mara, not immediately place a vote.

WE

HAVE

LESS

THAN

TWO

DAYS


If in talking to them I get the impression I am wrong and that they are town I will happily but at this point in time I believe the added pressure is a good thing.

（;≧皿≦）

I get we're pressed for time but I don't think the way you approached that vote was good. If you scumread red and mistyx too why not question them at the same time?

I think that A & M are doing more sorting than both Red and Mystix put together and I’m really not picking up and particular agenday vibes from them, so I don’t think they’re a good flip for today

.

@Raya, do you seriously think scum!me makes this post about the really only viable counterwagon to Vax?

At this point Vax only had 1 vote. Infinity, Catboi, and Red all were viable counter wagons to A&M who you didn't want

VOTE COUNT 1 . 10

• Twins Akari and Mara
  - 3 ( Chara, Titus, Catboi )
  
  Infinity Zero
  -------- 2 ( Wellermanbob, Vaxkiller )
  
  Red
  ------------------ 2 ( Twins Akari and Mara )
  
  Catboi
  --------------- 2 ( Raya36, Infinity Zero )
  
  Wellermanbob
  --------- 1 ( Red )
  
  Titus
  ---------------- 1 ( Perfume )
  
  Vaxkiller
  ------------ 1 ( jjh927 )
  
  Mistyx
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Chara
  ---------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Raya36
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Perfume
  -------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Smoke and Mirrors
  ---- 0 ( No One )
  
  jjh927
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  
  
  Not Voting
  ----------- 2 ( Mistyx, Smoke and Mirrors )

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to Flip
Deadline is in (expired on 2021-01-11 20:01:00)

Yes, I also did want any of those wagons either, so you’re kind’ve making my point for me, even better than I did.

I’m saying I tried to quash a twins flip and you then point out, I also didn’t want CB, Red or Infinity either. So I put the kibbosh on twins/CB/Red/Infinity wagons, so how does that tie me to Vax?

There was also Bob and Titus equal to Vax. I don't think it's a very strong argument that because you went against the 4 top wagons and Vax was sitting on 1 vote you must be town.

[Raya36]

Honestly what’s most concerning about Mistyx’s handling of the gamestate is she’s attempting to tie the red and chara slots together
If they’re TvS (which I’m thinking rn) that doesn’t look great imo
-Protocol

Well that’s the main thing I couldn’t wrap my head around. How do you logically read 2 slots as tvt when one of those slots claims to have an extremely specific hard guilty on the other?

So, Raya tr her > me is whack.

But why wuld scum!Mistyx suggest this? It's not going to get her towncred. It caused a lot of backlash, if we eliminate Chara and they're scum it'll just incriminate her.

I honestly don’t understand why she’d say this as any alignment because it makes absolutely no sense. If Mistyxis buddies with Chara, why couldn’t she be saying that to try to save them? If Titus is town, then her jumping on CB for questioning Vax’s read looks pretty bad too.

I can't say 100% what scum!Mistyx would and would not do but I know I wouldn't try to push that it's TvT if I was in Mistyx's position. I'd maybe push that red is scum and Chara's claim makes sense from town as that's a plausable narrative to get through. But at this point bussing would make more sense to me.

If you're scum and your only partner left has bene guiltied, trying to defend them is only setting you up to be elimed next.

[Raya36]

I'll read over your iso later and get back to you, my memory of your iso is a little foggy so I'm not accounting for your whole play right now

[Raya36]

Honestly what’s most concerning about Mistyx’s handling of the gamestate is she’s attempting to tie the red and chara slots together
If they’re TvS (which I’m thinking rn) that doesn’t look great imo
-Protocol

Well that’s the main thing I couldn’t wrap my head around. How do you logically read 2 slots as tvt when one of those slots claims to have an extremely specific hard guilty on the other?

So, Raya tr her > me is whack.

But why wuld scum!Mistyx suggest this? It's not going to get her towncred. It caused a lot of backlash, if we eliminate Chara and they're scum it'll just incriminate her.

I honestly don’t understand why she’d say this as any alignment because it makes absolutely no sense. If Mistyxis buddies with Chara, why couldn’t she be saying that to try to save them? If Titus is town, then her jumping on CB for questioning Vax’s read looks pretty bad too.

I can't say 100% what scum!Mistyx would and would not do but I know I wouldn't try to push that it's TvT if I was in Mistyx's position. I'd maybe push that red is scum and Chara's claim makes sense from town as that's a plausable narrative to get through. But at this point bussing would make more sense to me.

If you're scum and your only partner left has bene guiltied, trying to defend them is only setting you up to be elimed next.

You’re confusing what is smart and possibly scum indicative and tr it. In an FG game, there was a hard guilty on Ginngie and buddy Ank, haed defended Ginngie despite that. Yes it wasn’t smart but Ank still flipped scum, so you tr her for that specifically isn’t a good argument, especially to tr Mistyx > me or over anyone who isn’t making that argument for that matter.

Both Mistyx and Titus’ Chara/Red reads are bad, so you tr a slot who’s making a ridiculous argument over slots that aren’t really doesn’t make much sense.

That's a good point. I guess scum doesn't always do what I would do

[Raya36]

what if we beg really really pathetically

[Raya36]

Do you have any new thoughts on anyone even if your read didn't change?

[Raya36]

Who do you think is scum then? You seem to have almost everyone as town

[Raya36]

Who do you think is scum then? You seem to have almost everyone as town

Red and kitty, possibly still Misty.

there is the possibility of being wrong on Titus as well, but i'm not sure how i'd quantify it against the possibility of being wrong on my other townreads. excepting the top three, but i'm actually not sure about bob anymore, though that is likely more to do with the passing of time than my initial thought being wrong.

Why catboi? Have you fully caught up?

[Raya36]

I know Chara to be evil based on its claim

No technicalities

No doubt

The abyss beckons

I think from this that maybe the weapon stuff was part of Red's gimmick and he just got a simple guilty

[Raya36]

Ugh, I don't want to read up.

Red claimed a guilty on Chara?

Red had his bullshit push on me.

Strongly in favor of a Red lim by play.

I know strategically never eliminate the guilter before the guilty though.

While I am like 99.9% sure jjh is scum, it should be asked though...any chance of S v S?

pretty much this. besides the SvS thing.

unrelated to this post, i lean town on Titus. i'm not seeing her trying to subtly control the game the way she

tends

to as scum, and i don't think the way she's handled her VCA this game counts as that, either.
coming from the perspective of someone who also suspected jjh first overnight after double-ISOing him with Vax, even though i now think he's more likely town.

i also think scum Titus does more to actively try and dismantle the earlier wagon on me so she can claim cred for it later, instead of simply calling me town while not actively doing any defending.

This reads like a buddy defence to me. Basically, when Chara flips scum, we’re presumably supposed to tr Titus for the exact opposite. Why? Because if according to Chara, scum!Titus attempts to get

non-existent

towncred for dismantling their wagon, then they ought to be presumably tr for not deathtunnelling them as scum because apparently town!Titus almost never tries to control the gamestate. That is something NAI for Titus but Chara is trying to wifom us into tr Titus after they’re flipped.

I can actually see this

[Raya36]

What does voting JJ do

[Raya36]

I didn't win or lose yet

[Raya36]

Hm what about altaria, gardevoir, arceus, or absol?

[Raya36]

Hm what about altaria, gardevoir, arceus, or absol?

this is a very good list of pokemon

Arceus was the best though

[Raya36]

Togekiss apparently has serene grace too

[Raya36]

Arceus is more angelic

[Raya36]

hey

[Raya36]

Does anyone happen to know if scum can perform a kill and submit a night action at the same time? Or can they only do one? I checked the rules but I didn't see anything. I could have missed it though

[Raya36]

I've felt pretty town on both of them. Why do you think they're scum?

[Raya36]

I've felt pretty town on both of them. Why do you think they're scum?

Because of the vote patterns. I checked it several times.

Can you explain or show the patterns?

[Raya36]

Would a massclaim really be useful when the roles could be anything?

[Raya36]

Massclaim might let us coordinate night actions ya

Would probably also tell scum who to kill but thats okay

Alright. I'm not against it if majority wants to massclaim

[Raya36]

Hm what about altaria, gardevoir, arceus, or absol?

this is a very good list of pokemon

Arceus was the best though

nah absol is the best

sorry

also i softed my flavor yesterday look at me wow

Wow, I really set you up for that

[Raya36]

Is anyone opposed to me waiting for the mod's response to multitasking before I claim?

[Raya36]

Is anyone opposed to me waiting for the mod's response to multitasking before I claim?

If you're a friend, mara wants to know what kind of pokemon you have!

Plzplzplz tell meee

[Raya36]

I did evolve so I lost my puppy cuteness but I'm still cute

I think you're probably right about Vax taking a while to claim.

[Raya36]

Mistyx - Absol, lowers defense, unevadable attacks, attack boost
*Titus - (ascetic coward)
Wellermanbob - Wailmer, vig shot after 3 battles
*Catboi -
*Raya36 - (waiting on mod response)
Smoke and Mirrors - Pikachu, 50% chance targeter paralyzed
*Jjh927 - (Truant ability, missing flavour)
*Infinity Zero - (wants to claim last)
Twins Akari and Mara - Togedemaru, tackle, 1-shot bulletproof

[Raya36]

I think that's everything but let me know if I missed anything

[Raya36]

[Raya36]

Mistyx - Absol, lowers defense, unevadable attacks, attack boost
Titus - Azurill, doubles damage, choose not to fight, commutes
Wellermanbob - Wailmer, vig shot after 3 battles
*Catboi -
*Raya36 - (waiting on mod response)
Smoke and Mirrors - Pikachu, 50% chance targeter paralyzed
Jjh927 - Slakoth, Truant ability, missing flavour
*Infinity Zero - (wants to claim last)
Twins Akari and Mara - Togedemaru, tackle, 1-shot bulletproof

[Raya36]

Thick fat maybe for refusing a battle? It's defensive but not in an evasive way?

[Raya36]

You don't get two abilities

Right.

[Raya36]

Mistyx - Absol, lowers defense, unevadable attacks, attack boost
Titus - Azurill, doubles damage, choose not to fight, commutes
Wellermanbob - Wailmer, vig shot after 3 battles
Catboi - Skitty, opponent loses 1 attack, forms neighborhood
*Raya36 - (waiting on mod response)
Smoke and Mirrors - Pikachu, 50% chance targeter paralyzed
Jjh927 - Slakoth, Truant ability, missing flavour
*Infinity Zero - (wants to claim last)
Twins Akari and Mara - Togedemaru, tackle, 1-shot bulletproof

[Raya36]

Yeah, I can think of other ways to incorporate cute charm that's closer to the actual ability

[Raya36]

But if cat was going to fakeclaim cute charm wouldn't he make it make sense and not make it the same as a flipped scum role?

[Raya36]

What is it?

[Raya36]

That's actually a pretty cool role. Unfortunate if you end up townreading the person you last targeted then die. But still great for targeting scum then having a chance to reevaluate

[Raya36]

@Titus
Did you use any abilities last night and if so on who?

[Raya36]

@Titus
Did you use any abilities last night and if so on who?

You're not reading.

I meant did you use any abilities. You can't use yours on anyone

[Raya36]

@Titus
Did you use any abilities last night and if so on who?

You're not reading.

I meant did you use any abilities. You can't use yours on anyone

I commuted.

Do you know if you would still have been notified of being targeted for a battle?

[Raya36]

I mostly still caught up in the flavour justification for being able to refuse battles

[Raya36]

I'm just gonna claim so infinity can claim since we only have a day left. I think I've got all the info I need besides about multitasking

I'm Rockruff

My attacks can not be evaded (keen eye) and I can choose someone to battle at night. If anyone faints, they flip. (sucker punch).

[Raya36]

Yeah but my attacks not being able to be evaded makes me winning more likely in an even match at least

[Raya36]

Another thing I should mention is that if I target someone who is targeting me, initiating a battle fails. And it also serves as a roleblocker if they aren't targeting me and the battle happens.

[Raya36]

K so can't we clear people en masse if we coordinate actions unless last scum has a redirect

We might be able to. We should start trying to coordinate night actions since we don't have much time left

[Raya36]

Some also depends on if scum have multitasking or not

[Raya36]

Mistyx - Absol, lowers defense, unevadable attacks, attack boost
Titus - Azurill, doubles damage, choose not to fight, commutes
Wellermanbob - Wailmer, vig shot after 3 battles
Catboi - Skitty, opponent loses 1 attack, forms neighborhood
Raya36 - Rockruff, attacks can't be evaded, initiates battle if targeted player isn't targeting Raya
Smoke and Mirrors - Pikachu, 50% chance targeter paralyzed
Jjh927 - Slakoth, Truant ability, missing flavour
*Infinity Zero - (wants to claim last)
Twins Akari and Mara - Togedemaru, tackle, 1-shot bulletproof

[Raya36]

@Bob, will you have you vig shot this coming night?

[Raya36]

If scum don't have multitasking I can target someone who has an active targeting ability, have them target me, and if a kill happens and the battle doesn't initiate then they are clear.

If Bob has a vig shot maybe we can decide as a group who should be vigged?

Infinity claims to have been paralyzed by by Chara and there hasn't been a cc so Infinity is clear.

Cat should form a neighborhood with someone we think is scum.

That's all I can think of

[Raya36]

Clear: Infinity

Townread: Catboi, JJ, Twins

PoE: Mistyx, Titus, Bob, S&M

[Raya36]

I'll read your iso now

[Raya36]

I still don't think your iso is beyond scum, although unlikely.

My read on Misty didn't really change, I just realized I don't have enough reason or confidence to have her in the townpool.

[Raya36]

You target someone to paralyze?

[Raya36]

Mistyx - Absol, lowers defense, unevadable attacks, attack boost
Titus - Azurill, doubles damage, choose not to fight, commutes
Wellermanbob - Wailmer, vig shot after 3 battles
Catboi - Skitty, opponent loses 1 attack, forms neighborhood
Raya36 - Rockruff, attacks can't be evaded, initiates battle if targeted player isn't targeting Raya
Smoke and Mirrors - Pikachu, 50% chance targeter paralyzed
Jjh927 - Slakoth, Truant ability
Infinity Zero - Boltund, strong jaw, can paralyze a target
Twins Akari and Mara - Togedemaru, tackle, 1-shot bulletproof

[Raya36]

You mean A&M?

[Raya36]

Anyone have any thoughts on who the last scum might be?

I'm leaning Titus as of now

[Raya36]

I'm fine with Titus or Mistyx. When we get a response about multitasking I'll have some info on Titus though so I'd like to wait for that.

Any ideas for how to plan the night actions? I can't see many ways to clear anyone or confirm roles.

[Raya36]

Titus's ability to refuse a battle is odd when I seem to be the only one who can start a battle

[Raya36]

That's true. Maybe starting a battle is a gained ability for some

[Raya36]

The mod can't say if mafia have multitasking

[Raya36]

I didnt target the first night but last night I targeted Titus and it failed. This means he either targeted me or commuted as he claimed to have.

I just find it really odd that I target him to battle and he just happens to have the only role where he can say no to a battle. He might know I targeted him and said that to cover up? Which would still not make full sense because he said he commuted. Not refused the battle.

[Raya36]

VOTE: Titus

[Raya36]

I still think the claim oddly lines up with my night action

[Raya36]

Although if they actually targeted me with something and that's the reason the battle didn't happen then I feel like I should have noticed something happening? Unless it was a roleblock or something unnoticeable?

[Raya36]

I definitely think Twins are town and they're starting to make me doubt JJ

[Raya36]

I didnt target the first night but last night I targeted Titus and it failed. This means he either targeted me or commuted as he claimed to have.

I just find it really odd that I target him to battle and he just happens to have the only role where he can say no to a battle. He might know I targeted him and said that to cover up? Which would still not make full sense because he said he commuted. Not refused the battle.

Presumably the commute meant your action failed. If it succeedes there would be a battle topic, but Titus would use bounce and nothing would be rolled.

Maybe just weird that the one current battle role targets the one current battle refusing role. Felt made up but maybe its true

[Raya36]

Anyway, I am now considerably more confident that if it is not Titus, it is Twins. I floated Twins scum there on the basis that Twins professed a TR on Titus without giving any alternative. They explicitly stated they did not get why Titus was scumreading me. It reads like scum who knows Titus will flip town but does not want to do anything about the Titus lynch other than potentially gain some towncred out of not being on wagon.

Only when I state that they're probably the scum if it's not Titus do they actually vote me

Twins stance today doesnt make much sense for them as scum

[Raya36]

So you think Titus is scum but also believe his role claim?

[Raya36]

So you think Titus is scum but also believe his role claim?

Hey Raya, Titus is a SHE. I get really confused everytime you refer to Titus as a he because I’m not necessarily sure whom you’re referring to and yes, agree the twins are likely town. Not believing her role claim is one of the reasons I sr her but if jjh is confirming it, then why is he still sr her?

Iow, if you believe her role she’s probably town, if not scum, so I don’t understand how jjh can think her role is real and he obviously does and still think she’s scum here. Doesn’t her role making sense means she’s probably town?

Oh my bad! I'm sorry Titus, I'm not sure why I thought he but I'll fix that from now on.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. JJ seems to believe her roleclaim but also thinks she's scum which doesn't make much sense. I don't think commuting is a typical scumrole although I could be wrong there.

[Raya36]

The main reason I'm back to thinking it's very likely to be Titus is because I think Titus' current play is that of defeated scum who don't want to draw this game out for ages. Town Titus should probably have jumped on the plan involving catboi

It's defeated town. Scum Titus puts on a show. I don't see any path to getting you eliminated, so why prolong a town loss?

If you’re town here, why can’t you make a case on either jjh or catboi? Why are so so defeated after the twins are hard vetoing your wagon?

And we need actual evidence, so if you’re actually town, you need to help stop us from miseliming you.


I honestly don’t know what to think rn except I very much doubt it’s the twins. Its between Titus/jjh/catboi. I don’t think it’s anyone else.

I still don't think it's catboi. I'm at a 50/50 on jj/Titus now.

[Raya36]

VOTE: JJ

I think I believe Titus's claim. I still think it's weird she happens to have a battle refusal ability but she claimed the commute. Not refusing my battle. So I don't see why she would raise red flags on purpose as scum.

[Raya36]

That could be why but still not an excuse. I'll be more careful, sorry about that.

[Raya36]

I'm thinking it's probably just JJ now but if we're wrong we can afford a miselim and try again the next day

[Raya36]

Who should I nuzzle tonight? I want to hit someone who we won't lim tomorrow (to give us an extra chance to block a kill) but who is in the limpool

I literally have no idea who scum is

-Inf

Is paralyze essentially a roleblock or does it only affect their battle?
If we elim JJ then Titus isn't a good target because she can just commute, if we elim Titus then you should target JJ I think.

[Raya36]

Technically if we wanted to you could target Titus which would roleblock the commute/battle refusal? Then I target Titus to battle and if I win then we get JJ and Titus both by the next day.

I'm not sure which of commute and roleblock is priority though

[Raya36]

Also Raya, Titus' battle refusal is A MOVE
it is not a refusal of battle, it is effectively fleeing before anything is rolled

I see, so it's passive

[Raya36]

Also Raya, Titus' battle refusal is A MOVE
it is not a refusal of battle, it is effectively fleeing before anything is rolled

I see, so it's passive

AAAAAAAAAAAH

No

Am I horribly misunderstanding?

[Raya36]

Ok. Got it. I assume using bounce doesn't count for the part where my attacks can't be evaded

[Raya36]

Does it say your attacks cannot be evaded by any means or just refers to the conventional way of evading

Nope so probably not then