Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[Spartan117]

Greetings Comrades.

There is simply only room in here for 1 person with numbers in their name and it shall be I.

VOTE: safebet222

[Spartan117]

Salsa.

Can you change your color, please? It hurts.

Seconded, we salute you

[Spartan117]

Lets apply a bit more pressure

VOTE: flow trap

[Spartan117]

[1]

VOTE: flow trap

This is at least a partially serious vote. Don't want to discuss why right now.

Found this sus to even insinuate it is somewhat serious a vote this early on with such little discussion, unless ofc this is to obtain a reaction and read responses.

[2]

Yeeaaah.

So i'm not good at game, where main source of info is people yelling on each other.

Dude, you won Newbie 2046 by fooling the town perfectly! If you are not good, don't know who can be!!

It's easy to explain.

I was Mafia and i didn't need info at all, just lie and pretend like i search for info. In Newbie 2048 i failed as Town Jailkeeper. We won though, but that's not because me certanly.

Pretenting easier than doing actually.

So what you're saying is if you are playing well and have lots of reads and ideas we should scum read you aha

[3]

New meta to counter Not_Mafia players.

Count like he is on E-1 but actually that's E-2.

I rate this. lolhammers are all too painful.

[4]

So how can you have a serious vote of 3 people haven't even checked in?
...
OMGUS?

"..." not part of original post.

With the game becoming more serious, I can explain my motives. I switched my RVS vote from Enchant to flow trap because I wanted to see where a conversation would go. flow trap's posting style is lighthearted with a lot of small talk and interactions with other player, as one of the most active users so far (might be the most active in terms of post count). I stated my vote was "partially serious" (40) to avoid seeming suspicious from an apparent OMGUS (as you guessed) and a second (apparently) random vote. I am explaining my intentions now because I would rather have flow trap discuss his/her gameplay or opinions than post joke reactions.

Universal comment
I have always been cautious of connecting "being active" aka posting a lot, to providing surface readings of townie behaviour, it could be LAMIST behaviour or just benign comments that don't particularly contribute to driving the conversation on.

[5]

We should start from something.

but what are you starting from
people just randomly tacked on votes to them without a sliver of explanation or progression so i'm completely lost

Found this somewhat sus that Eso rational behind the voting pressure applied, I read this reaction as scum worrying about their scum teammate being waggoned and not knowing how to stop it (especially when accompanied with #87 & #88). Or at the very least scum trying to act townie and get town points for defending someone under early pressure.

[6]

Not_Mafia is a person who plays on this site..

And he lolhammers.

I don't want this scenario to repeat.

Eh... I didn't see his name on the player list...

VOTE: flow trap

That's E-1. My theory is nobody's dumb enough to hammer.

For someone who I have overall townie vibes from I didn't like this L-1 too much (at least the way it was done), I can see the rational behind the level of pressure here to try and risk danger in the aim to obtain results, even if it meant someone hammered because if you put someone to L-1 thats what you have to be prepared to have happen.

But then to remove his vote only 18minutes later seemingly because of being voted by Fredrick, hmmm.

[7]

So what were you going to do? Twiddle your thumbs until sxum raise their hand and say, "Its me!"

What are you gonna do, risk having potential harmful effects on town and make yourself look like a wolf?
There's plenty of different ways to reaction test, putting someone on e-1 doesn't achieve anything.

Disagree, there is a lot you can learn by putting someone to L-1 , for example who tries heavily to defend them

[8]

What did you think of EZ's reaction? It seemed a bit forced and exaggerated.

Agreed.

[9]

So right now, for me, FoS is pointing at EZ and Spartan.

EZ for an unnatural response to my flow vote and Spartan for voting there when he did. Easy to slip by sandwiched between votes on a flash wagon.

I disagree with slipping in sandwiched between votes, I had intended with my vote to give the pressure to create the conversation that ultimately ended up being created by your vote, I had not imagined we would go to L-1 so soon after, I did not think there would be enough pressure with only 2 votes on to incite the conversation I wanted, I thought putting it at L-2 would suffice.

[Spartan117]

For now I feel like my vote would be better placed here.

VOTE: esotericzoomer

[Spartan117]

VOTE: floo

Very scummy vote imo, has been lurking around and posting but still yet to provide any sort of detailed reads of their own as if they are unable to because they know everyone is town. Here voting off the back of other peoples reads without providing any sort of breakdown as to why they actually think they are sus or bringing anything new to the table.

[Spartan117]

Btw, what is the difference between hammer and lolhammer?

hammer intended by most, and this is collective decision.
lolhammer is just because voter wanted to.

Hammer is always done with a previous post of an intent to hammer giving the player time to claim their role or any other players to withdraw their vote if desired.

Lolhammer is done out of the blue with no prior warning and is typically either done by newb town or scum.

[Spartan117]

I feel like there is 1 scum between Flow trap Vs Sal.
I don't see it as Scum Vs Scum, and it just doesn't feel like Town Vs Town to me.

Other than that my main scum reads are EZ who I feel is being disingenuous in relation to that early waggon and has felt fake in some of their posts, and Fredrick who has been lurking and still yet to provide any meaningful content, could be typical scum trying to stay under the radar while still seeming active.

[Spartan117]

it's not a loaded question, you actually did this: townread those who voted you, stated suspicions/voted who didn't like the E-1 vote on you

I was talking about "Other than esotericzoomer and me, who gave negative attention to safebet222 for his E-1 vote on you?"

I didn't like it as I stated in point 6 in my #136, but he is a townie read for me at the moment.

[Spartan117]

I feel like there is 1 scum between Flow trap Vs Sal.
I don't see it as Scum Vs Scum, and it just doesn't feel like Town Vs Town to me.

I'm town for sure.

So are you trying to say you think Flow is scum, or do you disagree with what I have said here?

[Spartan117]

I feel like there is 1 scum between Flow trap Vs Sal.
I don't see it as Scum Vs Scum, and it just doesn't feel like Town Vs Town to me.

I'm town for sure.

So are you trying to say you think Flow is scum, or do you disagree with what I have said here?

No, I'm not trying to say that

flow trap

is scum. I only know my alignment and it's town. So scum/scum is not possible. It can be either scum/town or town/town.

So you're not willing to say at this time if you think Flow trap is town or scum?

[Spartan117]

VOTE: Enchant

Just putting some heat here

1 vote wagons aren't very hot, L-2 and L-1 wagons are where the fires at

[Spartan117]

VOTE: Enchant

Just putting some heat here

Thanks, it's cold here.


Really, if you annonce "THIS VOTE IS FOR PRESSURE" then i know this vote is for pressure and theorically give you nothing, so maybe you give something?

I didn't say it was for pressure

At least not for you

How does putting a vote on Enchant put pressure on someone else?

[Spartan117]

How does putting a vote on Enchant put pressure on someone else?

How indeed

If you're going to be evasive, people are just going to scum read you inc myself

[Spartan117]

How does putting a vote on Enchant put pressure on someone else?

How indeed

If you're going to be evasive, people are just going to scum read you inc myself

As I've said if you expect town (more specifically me) to abide by "truth, the whole truth, & nothing but the truth" your gonna have a bad time

I've just asked you a question that was all.

[Spartan117]

I've just asked you a question that was all.

I don't need to answer it

Even if you are town, this just hurts town

[Spartan117]

Well, we

are

still talking about it so it definitely got reactions out of almost everyone

Would you agree that there are different kinds of emotions, that there is a difference between reactions now after the fact and reactions at the time when there is more pressure and reactions are more honest.

[Spartan117]

Well, we

are

still talking about it so it definitely got reactions out of almost everyone

Would you agree that there are different kinds of emotions, that there is a difference between reactions now after the fact and reactions at the time when there is more pressure and reactions are more honest.

Yes, yes, no

You don't agree that reactions are more honest at the time when a situation is more pressurised like when you was put on L-1?

[Spartan117]

What is with the sudden double post glitch?

Its to get your post count up, something decided it wasn't high enough

[Spartan117]

I feel like there is 1 scum between Flow trap Vs Sal.
I don't see it as Scum Vs Scum, and it just doesn't feel like Town Vs Town to me.

Other than that my main scum reads are EZ who I feel is being disingenuous in relation to that early waggon and has felt fake in some of their posts, and Fredrick who has been lurking and still yet to provide any meaningful content, could be typical scum trying to stay under the radar while still seeming active.

Can you be more specific as to what makes this feel like not town v. town to you? I don't like flow individually but that conversation as a whole seems plausibly TvT to me. It also looks like you don't have a specific one in mind, as neither are your top scumreads.

Can we place votes here even if it's on a MoO it's still helpful

Vote where? And what is MoO?

Sal posts #202 asks Flow a question

Flows next post is #218 voting Sal with the reasoning they are passive and fluffy, not answering their question at all.

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

For being passive and fluffy

What don't you get?

Like everything... your wagon was on E-1, but didn't get any response from you. You townread those people who voted you, and placed suspicions on those who didn't like the E-1 vote on you. And you already read people while being on page 4 only, like super fast! You also stated you're not a new player, so as an experienced one you should know that being super active/helpful doesn't necessarily indicate town, as well as being silent doesn't necessarily indicate scum. Generally, activity is the last resort to point someone as town/scum. A new player can read people at this early state base on the activeness but not an experienced player. Your suspicion on

esotericzoomer

for this reason doesn't make sense to me, also your vote on

Fredrick A Campbell

and the explanation after, also feel weird to me.

I liked Sals #224, gave good detail explained their thoughts reads very townie.

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

For being passive and fluffy

What don't you get?

Like everything... your wagon was on E-1, but didn't get any response from you. You townread those people who voted you, and placed suspicions on those who didn't like the E-1 vote on you. And you already read people while being on page 4 only, like super fast! You also stated you're not a new player, so as an experienced one you should know that being super active/helpful doesn't necessarily indicate town, as well as being silent doesn't necessarily indicate scum. Generally, activity is the last resort to point someone as town/scum. A new player can read people at this early state base on the activeness but not an experienced player. Your suspicion on

esotericzoomer

for this reason doesn't make sense to me, also your vote on

Fredrick A Campbell

and the explanation after, also feel weird to me.

Yeah, I don't respond to things like that as town or mafia. As I've stated it's easier to read people who interact with you, and I was also weary of a pocket attempt how they read me barely affects thing. Yeah, I try to read people early, I just said I was leaning that way. Being fluffy & passive isn't being silent, so idk what you mean. i no longer suspect EZ, I will elaborate later. And if you never played with me before the last thing would feel weird

Flows #227 is illusive much like their style seems to be, I get holding back information but it seems to be like getting blood out of a stone on the detail on their reads.

It seems as soon as Flow is done with talking to Sal he changes his vote to enchant, so neither seeming to be a vote of true sus but perhaps more to just ensure he has their attention maybe while he attempts to do his form of scum hunting.

Out of the two of them I would most likely lean more town with Sal and more scum with Flow.

[Spartan117]

@safe @EZ since you guys are about what do you think of Fredrick so far?

[Spartan117]

VOTE: floo

Very scummy vote imo, has been lurking around and posting but still yet to provide any sort of detailed reads of their own as if they are unable to because they know everyone is town. Here voting off the back of other peoples reads without providing any sort of breakdown as to why they actually think they are sus or bringing anything new to the table.

What's your opinion on post 211, which comes prior to post 212?

I view 211 and 212 as a collective, I'm not sure why they needed to be on separate posts.

[Spartan117]

As I explained in 215 "voting off the back of other peoples reads without providing any sort of breakdown as to why they actually think they are sus or bringing anything new to the table"

[Spartan117]

Anyways there's a difference between arrogance & Apathy

There is a difference between them two words, although you have been showing a lack of general respect to your fellow players in how you respond to them.

I'm not sure how having a lack of interest or motivation coincides with someone with your post count.

[Spartan117]

Consider it a defense mechanism

Why would town need to be defensive?

[Spartan117]

1. I'm talking about in general
2. Town should always be defensive

Shouldn't town risk being aggressive enough to be seen as scum in order to try and obtain results?

[Spartan117]

You stated that you think "Town should always be defensive"

I don't feel you can be effectively both offensive and defensive at the same time, so as to be offensive as a town scum hunting you have to risk being aggressive and as such risk giving off scum vibes in order to try and out the actual scum. Where as scum will try and play more in the mindset of just being good town and play less risky as they have much more to lose. Scum losing 1 player vs town losing 1 player has a stark difference in how hard it is for their team to still win, so town can risk being more aggressive. Albeit it is also possible for scum to try and double bluff and play aggressive to appear as town risking scummy aggression.

[Spartan117]

VOTE: Fredrick

Hey, i won mafiatest, and got -11, while he got -5.

Why you not pushing me, but instead change mind soo easy.

Because people are more content voting fredrick than they are you.

I don't like how you are more concerned with voting with the pack and joining a train rather than following your scummiest scum read, that stinks of scum wanting to hide amongst town.

VOTE: Fredrick

Hey, i won mafiatest, and got -11, while he got -5.

Why you not pushing me, but instead change mind soo easy.

Because people are more content voting fredrick than they are you.

Aren't you supposed to argue with that, not just agree to execute person, who you find as less likely a mafia?

Fredrick is still a scumlean, it matters not to me who I vote as long as they are below the null bracket

It bothers me on your disregard for who your voting, rather than having some more pinpoint accuracy on how scummy your read is, instead youre happier to vote off anyone who you may have a scum lean on rather than a more solid read on.

i would like to ask for towncred

EZ seems much more interested in being town read than actually going after his stronger scum reads and pushing them further.

[Spartan117]

VOTE: Fredrick

Hey, i won mafiatest, and got -11, while he got -5.

Why you not pushing me, but instead change mind soo easy.

Because people are more content voting fredrick than they are you.

I don't like how you are more concerned with voting with the pack and joining a train rather than following your scummiest scum read, that stinks of scum wanting to hide amongst town.

VOTE: Fredrick

Hey, i won mafiatest, and got -11, while he got -5.

Why you not pushing me, but instead change mind soo easy.

Because people are more content voting fredrick than they are you.

Aren't you supposed to argue with that, not just agree to execute person, who you find as less likely a mafia?

Fredrick is still a scumlean, it matters not to me who I vote as long as they are below the null bracket

It bothers me on your disregard for who your voting, rather than having some more pinpoint accuracy on how scummy your read is, instead youre happier to vote off anyone who you may have a scum lean on rather than a more solid read on.

i would like to ask for towncred

EZ seems much more interested in being town read than actually going after his stronger scum reads and pushing them further.

[Spartan117]

VOTE: Fredrick

Hey, i won mafiatest, and got -11, while he got -5.

Why you not pushing me, but instead change mind soo easy.

Because people are more content voting fredrick than they are you.

I don't like how you are more concerned with voting with the pack and joining a train rather than following your scummiest scum read, that stinks of scum wanting to hide amongst town.

VOTE: Fredrick

Hey, i won mafiatest, and got -11, while he got -5.

Why you not pushing me, but instead change mind soo easy.

Because people are more content voting fredrick than they are you.

Aren't you supposed to argue with that, not just agree to execute person, who you find as less likely a mafia?

Fredrick is still a scumlean, it matters not to me who I vote as long as they are below the null bracket

It bothers me on your disregard for who your voting, rather than having some more pinpoint accuracy on how scummy your read is, instead youre happier to vote off anyone who you may have a scum lean on rather than a more solid read on.

i would like to ask for towncred

EZ seems much more interested in being town read than actually going after his stronger scum reads and pushing them further.

I'm pushing my scumread's, you can see this in the fact that I made a half a page long wall on my reads in general.
I don't see the problem with settling for a Fredrick wagon, when like, one other person, will follow me on the Enchant wagon.

Also I thought it was obvious but the last post is a joke lol.

Posting a wall of reads is not the same thing as pushing scum reads, how are you pushing for answers when you just share your opinion rather than questioning them and holding them to account?

I'm not warping anything, you chose to vote someone based off there being traction for other people to vote them, not from them being your main scum read, which is major sus.

As much as it may have been a joke it still expresses your desire to be receiving town cred for posting your reads, which is something scum would be much more desperate for than town.

[Spartan117]

You're disregarding any semblance of natural progression I had and rather you're cherrypicking my post's and warping them to fit your narrative.
Case and point,

I make a joke, you read it as me wanting to be townread instead of me pushing my reads.

How does saying

i would like to ask for towncred

in #446 push your reads?

[Spartan117]

You're disregarding any semblance of natural progression I had and rather you're cherrypicking my post's and warping them to fit your narrative.
Case and point,

I make a joke, you read it as me wanting to be townread instead of me pushing my reads.

How does saying

i would like to ask for towncred

in #446 push your reads?

It doesn’t, it was a joke, and you cherrypicked it as well.

So you agree what you said in #536 was incorrect as you literally just stated that it is you pushing your townreads...

[Spartan117]

VOTE: Fredrick

Hey, i won mafiatest, and got -11, while he got -5.

Why you not pushing me, but instead change mind soo easy.

Because people are more content voting fredrick than they are you.

I don't like how you are more concerned with voting with the pack and joining a train rather than following your scummiest scum read, that stinks of scum wanting to hide amongst town.

VOTE: Fredrick

Hey, i won mafiatest, and got -11, while he got -5.

Why you not pushing me, but instead change mind soo easy.

Because people are more content voting fredrick than they are you.

Aren't you supposed to argue with that, not just agree to execute person, who you find as less likely a mafia?

Fredrick is still a scumlean, it matters not to me who I vote as long as they are below the null bracket

It bothers me on your disregard for who your voting, rather than having some more pinpoint accuracy on how scummy your read is, instead youre happier to vote off anyone who you may have a scum lean on rather than a more solid read on.

i would like to ask for towncred

EZ seems much more interested in being town read than actually going after his stronger scum reads and pushing them further.

I'm pushing my scumread's, you can see this in the fact that I made a half a page long wall on my reads in general.
I don't see the problem with settling for a Fredrick wagon, when like, one other person, will follow me on the Enchant wagon.

Also I thought it was obvious but the last post is a joke lol.

Posting a wall of reads is not the same thing as pushing scum reads, how are you pushing for answers when you just share your opinion rather than questioning them and holding them to account?

I'm not warping anything, you chose to vote someone based off there being traction for other people to vote them, not from them being your main scum read, which is major sus.

As much as it may have been a joke it still expresses your desire to be receiving town cred for posting your reads, which is something scum would be much more desperate for than town.

You’re reading so far into it, it’s astounding.

I’m voting a scumread, whether or not it’s my main one is completely meaningless.
And the ball is in their court to refute what I have already said, continuous pushing and questioning is a waste of time, you can even see me talking to Enchant about him not refuting any of my points.

Also the page after the joke that you want to push as a scumtell, I clarified it was a joke.

It's not meaningless, the meaningful part is why your jumping on it, we are not at a stage where we will be finishing this game day just yet so ensuring a day kill is one of your scum reads isnt clinical right now as no one is near it. Your basis around joining the wagon appears to centre based off other people being sus of them too, thats why I'm scum reading you, I don't see it as simple as just voting a scumtell, it looks very blatant to me why your voting him as its easy to seem town to just vote a less scum read when you can hide under the pushes of other players, especially against a player who has been around less and more likely not to push you back or give you much for the vote you placed. It's not the vote, its the why and how.

[Spartan117]

So you agree what you said in #536 was incorrect as you literally just stated that it is you pushing your townreads...

No, he said you did

fyi I'm not paying attention to you as whatever alignment you are, you are anti town...

[Spartan117]

You're disregarding any semblance of natural progression I had and rather you're cherrypicking my post's and warping them to fit your narrative.
Case and point,

I make a joke, you read it as me wanting to be townread instead of me pushing my reads.

How does saying

i would like to ask for towncred

in #446 push your reads?

It doesn’t, it was a joke, and you cherrypicked it as well.

So you agree what you said in #536 was incorrect as you literally just stated that it is you pushing your townreads...

I didn’t say that lol?

What does the last sentence of your #536 say?

[Spartan117]

Not quoting that cus huge ass post but that makes literally no sense. I’m hiding behind other people’s pushes? the fuck? I’ve made it very clear that I scumread Enchant so I don’t see how I’m ‘hiding,’ also where’s my motivation as scum to not push him? However as town I see literally no one other than maybe Salsabil scumreading them as well. It would be anti-town of me to waste time on a wagon that the whole town doesn’t want to vote when there’s already a wagon forming on one of my other scumreads.

Fair enough on not quoting.

The "Hiding" is in reference to how you jumped on Fredricks wagon, I can just see how its much easier for ScumEZ to slip onto Fredricks wagon that others are pushing, than to keep pushing your strongest scum read I believe is "Enchant" and try and get more information from them while other people who are already pushing Fredrick continue to do so, do you see where I am coming from?

Also the game does not end Day 1 so any information on reads etc we get day 1 can help day 2 whether we are alive or not, it is a pro town play to keep getting information so long as we can. Hypothetical situation here: Enchant is scum, TownFredrick gets voted off, and you TownEZ gets night killed, and then ScumEnchant blends in as they weren't pushed as much day 1 and there are less people sus of him. Every read counts even if its something early day 1 that can help us sort players day 3 or however far down the line.

[Spartan117]

Don't have time to really read today, prefer the Spartan vote to Enchant one. I'm probably not going to get more out of Frederick, safebet was top scumread but will wait on replacement. Might swap vote tomorrow, might keep it.

Can you explain your read of me compared to Enchant, why am I the better vote? Why do you think I am scum?

Why was Safebet your top scumread? Personally I he is a townread of mine I'm going to have to re-evaluate once he is replaced.

[Spartan117]

Ok, my TRs at this time are Prism & Floo

Could you explain your scumreads and why they are your scrum reads?

[Spartan117]

Welcome Quiet!

Shame Safebet had to go, but I'm looking forward to playing with you, doesn't look like my read on your slot is going to change from how you've started out, but we shall see how that evolves.

Going to do a re-readthrough again later, does anyone have any questions for me?

[Spartan117]

I am currently working on my re-read through on 12/29 so far

[Spartan117]

Currently doing a read through, going to put my thoughts for each player with my read on them as I progress through the posts, and I'll note any posts of interest, again if anyone has any questions on anything I have put here or any questions about the game in general please ask. (note: I'm gonna post this now before anything else happens and the days ends and the thread gets locked I have read through it all but wish to spend more time evaluating the last 3-5 pages again properly, and also its nearly 3am and I need to get to sleep aha my head feels fried, I will be around for any general catch up/conversation for a little bit but will answer any detailed questions tomorrow if possible)

Salsabil Faria

I find it tough to narrow down Sals motives, they are very conversational and talkative to everyone coming across very townie and friendly but could also be LAMIST, has expressed townie feelings of getting burned before and scared to let themselves be taken in like this again.
I liked 531 from Sal on their breakdown of Fredrick. General townie vibes from Sal overall.

flow trap

I have a null read on this slot, its hard to pinpoint if they are town or scum, they started off the game appearing very newbish as if they didnt know what they were doing, example 53
I agree with their logic/read of safebet in 244
273 277 285 one of several examples where they have avoided the question and just played it off as if it was nothing, very illusive and evasive.
368 you state you're finding Enchant town here, what changed for you to vote him and if I've missed the post where you have made this clear please inform me.
I do agree with Flow Traps 414 it did come across from Sal on the defensive that they are more worried about being scum read and a victim than pushing back, but overall they have been very townie so this doesn't on its own change my read on their slot.
I didn't agree with 433 stating that town should be defensive, which I countered in my 434 and 436

Enchant

I town read this slot, while they may come across illusive and emotive, 45 is a prime example why I am leaning town with this slot, I feel if they are scum they would be more involved and have more ideas, while as town I get the impression from their initial admission they struggle to have motivation and form reads coming from a town perspective.
I like 58 trying to apply early pressure to someone who appeared new and inexperienced, also to potentially see who else might join and why. Starting off that first wagon that brought so much discussion. 67 warning players not to put to L-1 early because of risk of early hammer.
150 questioning Floo questioning his worry about looking sus, enchant looking town here for me.
195 another example of sure NAI content from Enchant but informative to town which he didnt need to do, in my opinion comes across townie as the message is to the best of towns interests.
I will say I find it odd how in 471 Enchant asks EZ why he is not voting him as his top scum read but then since he has voted him and applied pressure he hasnt really been able to push back

floo

Floo's posts are few but tend to be emotive and full of thought, 124 pushing flow trap to get his read on safebet when he previously explained 2/3 of his reads is good to see very townie pushing for reads.
It's hard to find a lot about Floo but from what I have seen from reading everything through chronologically they seem to provide some straight forward towny input when they do contribute will keep an eye on this slot.

quiet/safebet222 slot

27 Looks like town trying to push conversation/get the game going.
86 the original L-1 vote, I can see why it may seem scummy to put someone to L-1 so early with a chance anyone could come along and hammer but I felt it was such a bold play that scum wouldn't make with it drawing so much attention to themselves.
129 after the discussion on the early L-1 dies down he shares his early suspicions he now has trying to push for more conversation and provoke discussion.

esotericzoomer

liked 66 81 83 questioning the rationale behind the early votes, but wasn't keen on 68 and the following posts which argued against the reason for early pressure to create discussion, showed very early worry on a wagon placed on someone who he shouldn't have had enough time to invest strong town views in, early thoughts of a partnership here worried me.
87 88 seem forced and fake or genuine worry for their teammate being put to L-1 so early, it was clear that the idea behind this action was to drive discussion and put pressure on players to discuss motives although EZ really does not like Safebet doing that here in this way.
I did like their reaction to my focused push on them, gave a competent push back and reasoning but I'm still sus of this slot.

Prism

I don't like their push of safebet in 293 here, looks good from the outside but in essence just re-visiting the same points that have already been addressed.
I disagree with 303 I think sticking hard to their story is something either town or scum would do
I liked 311 challenging me on the reasoning behind my statement felt townie to chase me up on that, trying to get more info.
328 tells me they are quite experienced and appears to be looking to help town solve the problem rather than covering a sheet over our eyes, but I am going to wait and see what they do to try and figure out which side they are on. I want to see more from them as I feel there is not enough self motivated individual thoughts for me to put a concrete read on them yet.
I like their 422 it felt like a very raw emotive reaction to Flow traps actions from a townie frustration perspective at someone who was hiding information preventing others from understanding their actions/reads etc.
I don't like 475 pressuring Safebet, they dont like safebets read post from 459 and states the thinking doesnt add up but doesnt expand any further on it only questioning the vote on flow trap.

Fredrick

comes in with 90 their random vote on safebet seeming potentially a little opportunistic to jump on early to a potential reverse wagon that didn't formulate.
166 strange reaction to being voted, lack of desire to input thoughts and fight for reads, very reserved and not very townie.
173 again refusal to providing meaningful content with a mindset of "I don't have to" very much keeping their cards close to their chest, making it hard to get a well rounded read on them.
185 states that he is expressing his opinion on something but provides a pretty nothing statement that contradicts itself.
211 212 jumps on the back of Sals reasoning without providing any fresh ideas of their own to vote Floo, seems like a very scummy vote to me. something I called out in 215 which I don't believe was ever properly answered by them.

I don't like Fredricks aloofness and lack of pushing for reads, he has appeared to me very opportunistic, as for someone who should be one of the far more experienced members of this group as an SE and isn't pushing conversation or contributing to uncovering scum, if anything it feels like he is scum hiding in plain sight.
VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

[Spartan117]

Last post for a bit sorry for all the spam.

Spartan vs EZ is now the most interesting thing in this thread for me. Reading further, my first impression is town v town, but I want to revisit this and see if there’s anything to pick up. I’m walking back my immediate suspicion of Spartan a bit, but there’s something there. Also:

fyi I'm not paying attention to you (flow) as whatever alignment you are, you are anti town...

Huh. I’m breaking my word. This is an open question for anyone:

Do you think that flow trap’s play is anti-town? I’m curious where people stand. I don’t think it qualifies/am not convinced that it is, but I think hearing people’s current takes on this would be useful.

Just finished work, going to have dinner then do a proper read through with a clean head of the last 6 pages as I wasn't able to do it all properly last night.

To expand on my mindset here Quiet, it was a bit of an emotional reaction of my frustration to asking them question after question and having it dismissed with fog. I can fully understand why someone would want to not give everything away and keep some of their thoughts to themselves. It just got to me that after trying to understand something and put the pieces together it was shut down on more than one occasion, and if I'm not mistaken I think the same happened to others too, and I can see both town and scum doing this for different reasons so I see it as NAI overall but it still stagnates potential discussion that could have been had, shuts off avenues of conversation and makes me at the very least feel less desiring to try and converse with them from fear of getting shot down again and it being a pointless effort to try and go down that avenue although I did try.

[Spartan117]

Less helpful # hurtful

Less helpful insinuates some level of helpfulness of which there was none.

[Spartan117]

Pedit; I recognize that it was a response to Spartian saying you weren’t

ever

helpful and that it’s unfair of me to snipe it out like that.

More interested in how you play. If this is townYou, it almost seems like you’re playing town in a way that balances your scum range. If that makes sense. Thus the question of how you recommend sorting you; the “am I having fun” thing is a tough read for me

About to go through them pages now, Just wanted to say I didn't say he wasn't ever helpful, I was referring to when I had asked him questions and he was dismissive/illusive. My frustration also stems from not being able to get a strong read on the slot, overall I have a pretty Null real, I can see townie and scummy reasons for the things they have done.

[Spartan117]

Doing a recap reviewing Enchants ISO and organically from 27 up to now.

To preface I had a decent town lean on Enchant like I mentioned in 746 from my review of the majority of the beginning of the game, I felt them very interesting with how they engaged whether intentional or not, causing reactions provoking discussion, not trying to hide away and blend into the background. Early game posts gave me that town vibe from them, i felt it more of a hunch from their behaviour and how they interacted with others.

Posts tended to be many but lacking depth and content, choosing to be more concise with their actions whether out of lack of interest for the game or trying to be mysterious.

in 471 he calls EZ out when he places his vote on a weaker scum read and not himself, I know some disagree but I think that is a legitimate read.

478 Was where I found his a bit sus, I didnt really understand his reasoning behind pre-claiming he would hammer anyone put to L-1. I could see some townie motive to it, on again pushing a motive to prevent a lolhammer.

577 he defends himself making a point about his serious and not serious behaviour and it all being read the same, 581 His refusal to review EZs wall isnt helping him and does appear scummy.

In the following posts after he seemed comfortable to egg on players to put their vote on him without seeming too uncomfortable about it more as if it is a challenge.

To preface this next part I can see definite scum motives behind the bizarre actions that Enchant chose to take from here on, but since the vast majority seem to be on the lynch Enchant train and it being scummy to view him as anything other than scum, I wish to play devils advocate and just try and look at things from a well what if enchant is town, perspective and if so what might be going on in Enchants head in this case. With everyone so focused on blanket scum claiming him I want to assess the possibility that it's not a 100% guarantee, because for me its not.

661 The post before the self vote he shares his opinion on Prism and welcomes quiet, not very like someone who wishes to leave the game.
In between that time and 691 where he self votes, he receives a vote from both Flow Trap and EZ. Quiet brings up about the L-1 hammer by Enchant if its still a thing in 686

I'm not sure if Enchant hadn't checked the previous posts and just voted himself as a reaction tester to see who might jump on it. there are 3 minutes after he places the vote on himself before he posts 692 so I personally believe in them 3 minutes he checked after he had placed the self vote and saw the other votes on him.

I was real mafia goon btw. Outplayed myself.

GG town.

I know it is probably very unlikely but it could be possible that he thought he self hammered and this was his reaction as the last message to chat before the chat would be locked. and it wasnt until 695 where EZ informed him he didnt self hammer that he then unvoted himself in 696 after EZ jokes about someone coming along to hammer him.

I dont like Quiets 697 In the same post he says

"But you weren’t super at risk from my perspective; I thought some of this was pressure"

and then follows it up with

"So uh, basically, I’m probably going to hammer you later today when I catch up"

He goes from in his eyes Enchant not being at risk and seeing some of the votes as pressure to then telling him he is probably going to hammer him, it feels a bit opportunistic in my eyes.

700 comes across to me as genuine town that has given up and doesnt know where to turn as it seems like everyone is scum reading him and he doesn't know what else to do, he follows that up by trying to open dialogue with quiet in 701 open dialogue being the opposite to what he has been accused of doing of trying to end the day early and stopping conversation.

704 After quiet tries to talk him out of self voting he explains why in 704 if he is around long term it will be harmful to town with,

"even if i save myself now, i hardly believe in ability to clean self later, where my death can decide game."

That feels to me as a very townie mindset to have where he is putting the best interests of the town before himself, something that scum wouldn't do.
712 again explaining the rationale for why his self hammer or at the very least death in general would benefit town, why would scum do that?

Personally I feel like Enchants is a provocative player by behaviour who I think has scum on his wagon, and I refuse to join this wagon.

Read through and thoughts are up to page 30 atm, need to go out to the shop right now will continue when I get back.

[Spartan117]

Glad I got that in before any hammer was made phew

[Spartan117]

Fredrick yes, but I don't see how it's preventing either when I have

★ Unlimited Vote Changes ★

Why do you want to prevent a Fredrick wagon?

[Spartan117]

Let me know if there's any other reads you want to talk about when you finish reading.

What are your thoughts on Sal? I feel like I need to re-evaluate the slot/give it some more thought, I'm also planning a re read of Safebet/quiets slot.

[Spartan117]

Ok, I think I'm going to place Salsa in the Leaning Scum but not open to shoot category

Could you explain your thoughts as to why you are leaning scum?

[Spartan117]

Salsabil Faria, I trust you to encounter my post where I ask you a question soon. I may or may not be online and may or may not be able to have a real-time talk with you.

Okay, I'm waiting for your question...

I think hes gone to bed if 881 has anything to say about it

[Spartan117]

Gonna be around for a bit, does anyone have any questions they would like to ask me, or engage in dialogue about anything?

[Spartan117]

Just got free from work, what's happening with everyone? Anyone around? Why is it so quiet?

[Spartan117]

I'm surprised EZ was picked for the night kill hmm, I would have thought Quiet, Prism, Flow Trap and Floo would have all been much better NK targets the fact that it wasn't one of them puts a good deal of sus on them in my eyes.

[Spartan117]

this happens way too much

Why do you think EZ was picked?

[Spartan117]

I think we are in Cop+Doc world

Any specific reason for your hunch, I take it you just have a bit of specific town sus right?

[Spartan117]

Spartan: Who did you think the scum were on the wagon at the time of 838?

I believe at the time you scumread Esoteric but you were voting Frederick, who was offwagon.

At the time yes I was sus of EZ and I had some mild suspicion on Flow trap (generally find them hard to read) who I'm not sure if they was on the Enchants wagon at that exact time but was dancing on or around it. Although I had townread Quiets slot before they subbed in I was also concerned of them being a bit too LAMIST and I had and still have that concern with you too, so I found that whole wagon sus pretty much, I agree what enchant did didn't look very good but it was all too easy for everyone to jump aboard.

What do you think now seeing that slot flip? what do you think of your fellow wagoners? How do you feel their motives compared to your own with that wagon?

[Spartan117]

Actually, flow can tell me the NK equity probably.

The enchant flip gives us basically no info as feared.

I don't feel like he died in vein, I think now that we know for certain enchant is 100% town it gives us a bit more clarity with our reads on those that interacted with him especially with those on his wagon.

[Spartan117]

My immediate thoughts were “should have just townlocked them and moved on, this gives us nothing”.

I don’t think particularly anyone stands out as a paragon of scum for how they interacted with that wagon. It’s basically a policy elim at that point. I couldn’t find a hero fold there, so why should I expect anyone else to have?

I think the NK is our best bet for info, but otherwise my immediate take was, great, day1 part2, electric boogaloo. I’m probably being dismissive and I’m sure that there’s some info to be gained, but right now I’m trying to figure out what two wagons help solve the game most today, and will need to review to see if there’s anyone that benefits from an EZ kill. I retain some townreads I feel good about, and I remember townreading EZ (I hope I did, havnt looked back yet still traveling), so there was a lil disappointment there.

Flow doesn’t get NKed, I never do

, Fredrick doesn’t, as we had suspicion from yesterday. Spartian falls into that category, but was less sus than us three. I think salsa gets left alive, not over suspicion, but because I think they’re not the scariest town.

I could see floo getting killed, EZ obviously did and was pretty widely TRed if I recall correctly, Prisim you also do often I think, though you fall into the category of scary as a competent scum threat, and may be left alive for that reason.

I’ll need to review as to why EZ was the choice over floo and you. That is my no review (and possibly fallible memory) reaction. When I’m done traveling I’ll read back over and give stronger reads about my suspicious, but other than a TR on Floo which I wholeheartedly retain, I don’t think there’s any that feel locked for me without looking back.

I’m interested in why the push on Fredrick happened, and why it’s still happening. Trying to decide if it’s a good wagon today. I think I’m inclined to hunt somewhere else, but if other people want to champion that I’ll be very interested.

I understand why Flow Trap may be less likely to get NKed although I still would have thought he would have been one of the contenders, but I dont understand why you are distancing yourself from Prism and Floo. I'm not sure if there is something specific as to why it would be the case but I would have put you in the same pool of NK targets as Prism and Floo, if not above floo for your content and effort to try and solve the game? It' makes me sus that you would try and distance yourself like that hmm.

Fredrick was very uncooperative and didnt act in a townie manner trying to solve the game, pushing players, expressing reads, etc.

I'm not sure who the best wagon is yet, I want to see what everyone has to say about the events of N1.

[Spartan117]

Fredrick is somewhat vindicated by Enchant's town flip

Why do you think that Floo, I don't agree.

[Spartan117]

I agree that is true but I don't see why he is even somewhat vindicated when he was being scumread before them interactions occurred, Floo how do you feel about Prism? Would you be willing to join a wagon on them today?

[Spartan117]

My vote is in the same place:

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

You vote quick. How does the Enchant flip change your read of Fredrick?

I get the impression they assumed we would pick up d2 where we left off on d1 with a wagon on Fredrick and while I am still sus of them, I want to see more from them first, I want to see them actively try and solve the game.

[Spartan117]

Salsabil Faria, who stays out of suspicion for the same reason as Prism

I felt like there were a few occasions that Salsabil seemed very worried about coming off sus and their behaviour being seen as scummy, which was suspicious to me. I saw them presenting themselves similar to Quiet and Prism with their content and seeming townie but felt like they were more concerned about seeming townie.

[Spartan117]

At the time yes I was sus of EZ and I had some mild suspicion on Flow trap (generally find them hard to read) who I'm not sure if they was on the Enchants wagon at that exact time but was dancing on or around it. Although I had townread Quiets slot before they subbed in I was also concerned of them being a bit too LAMIST and I had and still have that concern with you too, so I found that whole wagon sus pretty much, I agree what enchant did didn't look very good but it was all too easy for everyone to jump aboard.

What do you think now seeing that slot flip? what do you think of your fellow wagoners? How do you feel their motives compared to your own with that wagon?

I was a bit annoyed given that his timeline was blatantly false and basically threw my hands up and said I'll read if I have to Day 2. I also wondered if I was wrong on Esoteric. Now my instinct is to look at you and Frederick, neither of which were on the wagon. If quiet is scum I'm probably going to have to catch him off of forcing errors or bad pushes over one-off posts and analysis, he's clearly capable of faking. I'd townlean it given that he kept up the activity and analysis through the EoD; I had that as +scum with Enchant but that is now obviously not the case.

I don't like that you spent the Enchant wagon not only whiteknighting but openly saying "scum are on the wagon" without really pushing a specific person, and instead pushing someone off wagon.

The votes on the wagon were Esoteric, me, flow trap, quiet, and Enchant. 2 of these are flipped town, 2 of these are townleans for me. One scum is almost certainly off the wagon, and I don't think both being off is a bad bet at all.

At that time I certainly thought that there was scum on the wagon, as my comments are in reference to what I was thinking at the time. I'm going to have to re-evaluate everyone's slots with the two flips we have seen and re-read everyone with that in mind, I still think there is probably 1 scum between you flow trap and quiet, and possibly 1 scum between Fredrick and Sal, although I'm not saying it couldn't be a Fredrick Sal combo, I just need to look into that to see if I think it could be possible, its hard to see Fredricks partnerships as he is very evasive and a bit of a shut box as far as trying to understand his playing style. If he continues as d1 and doesn't change he will remain my main sus, but I will be watching everyone else as I don't want another situation like Enchants to happen.

[Spartan117]

Floo how do you feel about Prism? Would you be willing to join a wagon on them today?

Why am I specified here over Frederick/flow trap/quiet? As far as I can tell you haven't really differentiated between me/quiet and you seem to scumlean flow trap.

Flow traps a hard one, I certainly did scumlean him, and thought his interactions with EZ were interesting, I wasn't sure if they were 2 scum with how familiar they were with each other, now that we have seen EZ flip, I've got to evaluate and decide if I think it was two towns working together to try and solve the puzzle or Flow trap was trying to pocket EZ, but in that case I don't understand why he would NK him so I'm unsure, I would say at the moment I'm still mostly null on him with it leaning towards town but I find it a hard slot to get a solid read on.

[Spartan117]

I *might* be having a heart attack so I'll be out for half a day

I hope everything's ok dude

[Spartan117]

I suspect the mafia is comprised of Spartan11 and flow trap.

VOTE: Spartan11

How did you miss-spell my name twice? lmao ok, lets see your reasoning.

[Spartan117]

If we shoot FaC and they flip town we are in a really bad position

That is the case for anyone we vote off. I think we need to spend more time trying to solve this puzzle.

[Spartan117]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Spartan117 has justified their scumread of me despite the fact that I have stated that he stated an opinion that had no justification.

Allow me to correct you Fredrick, because you are wrong. It honestly really frustrates me because I share the same concerns of flow trap that there is a chance you might be town and a miselim on you would be a big problem for us, if you are actually town you are making this really hard for us. But you continue to act the most sus player here, you have had as much time as everyone else here to read the thread we have had the night phase where you had time to catch up and work towards providing a meaningful contribution, there have been two player deaths which you could review the wagon on Enchant and EZs flip on which you could review their interactions and who might want them dead, there is lots of material for you to use to actually try and solve the game whilst you would rather talk to the dead. If you want to scumread me that's fine, I'm all for it, but provide reasoning play the game if you are town, quote my posts that you think are scummy and explain what you think about my actions that are so suspicious, because I don't want to lose this game just because you can't be bothered to check my ISO...

VOTE: floo

Very scummy vote imo, has been lurking around and posting but still yet to provide any sort of detailed reads of their own as if they are unable to because they know everyone is town. Here voting off the back of other peoples reads without providing any sort of breakdown as to why they actually think they are sus or bringing anything new to the table.

Here in 215 I explained my read on you and your only response was watery and meaningless in 357 and 364.

Fredrick
comes in with 90 their random vote on safebet seeming potentially a little opportunistic to jump on early to a potential reverse wagon that didn't formulate.
166 strange reaction to being voted, lack of desire to input thoughts and fight for reads, very reserved and not very townie.
173 again refusal to providing meaningful content with a mindset of "I don't have to" very much keeping their cards close to their chest, making it hard to get a well rounded read on them.
185 states that he is expressing his opinion on something but provides a pretty nothing statement that contradicts itself.
211 212 jumps on the back of Sals reasoning without providing any fresh ideas of their own to vote Floo, seems like a very scummy vote to me. something I called out in 215 which I don't believe was ever properly answered by them.

I don't like Fredricks aloofness and lack of pushing for reads, he has appeared to me very opportunistic, as for someone who should be one of the far more experienced members of this group as an SE and isn't pushing conversation or contributing to uncovering scum, if anything it feels like he is scum hiding in plain sight.
VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

Here in 746 where I share my reads I go into detail breaking down your posts and giving an explanation as to why I voted you D1, the fact that you are an SE and are an experienced player and are doing this just makes me think you aren't very experienced playing as scum. You seem to struggle to formulate reads, providing twice as many posts as floo while they have provided plenty of content, breakdown of their thoughts and reads.

Overall you come across as a very defensive player who seems to have something to hide. 166 173 show you being over defensive and look to be afraid of the spotlight being put on you. Requires meaning on why they are being scum read in order to respond and contribute but then doesnt provide any meaning behind their own votes, as seen in 191 212 (212s only elaboration appears to be in the meaningless post of 364 ) 626 853

He likes to appear to be playing the game casting votes without actually applying any pressure, not actually contributing anything to the group which is indicative of scum.

863 makes me laugh because you actually request the reasoning for my opinion while quoting my reasoning breaking down your posts with me explaining why I think you are scum. You state

There was no reasoning for your opinion for me to argue against

I'll set you a challenge, in your 75 posts quote us which ones have you providing meaningful content trying to solve the game, otherwise I'm placing my vote on you.

I refuse to place my vote on you now as I do not wish to put you to L-1 at this moment in time when D2 has only just begun, I do not want you or your scum buddy to come along and hammer you, there is still much discussion to be had and people to hear from, and after all there are 2 scum.

I had planned to put my attention on Sal and review their posts in answer to their 1080 and I shall do, but to do it justice I shall have to do that later.

[Spartan117]

I refuse to place my vote on you now as I do not wish to put you to L-1 at this moment in time when D2 has only just begun, I do not want you or your scum buddy to come along and hammer you, there is still much discussion to be had and people to hear from, and after all there are 2 scum.

Mafia team need a miselimination to secure their win now, I don't think if

Fredrick A Campbell

is one of the scums here, his scum buddy will hammer him at this stage.

Oh there are definitely reasons as to why they would, I mean for example the mafia want the days to be over quickly so that we can get minimal information and they can get another NK, and if they think that their scum buddy is a guaranteed day lynch then the quicker they end the day the better, its also better for them to be on the wagon as they can get off it to keep their scum partner alive or to distance themselves from them when they flip scum.

[Spartan117]

Everyone is arrogant in this game in the sense that in most cases anyone else being shot is better than you

You ok dude? @ 1087

[Spartan117]

Yeah, I have a headache though, so I'll probably have less substance than usual

No worries dude, hope you are ok, do you have any thoughts on any scum partnerships? If so and so is scum who their partner would be, now that we have more info off the flips.

[Spartan117]

Also @spartian, I reviewed day1 a bit, and early day1 safebet222 was pretty broadly scumread for the flashwagon e-1 play, and I know at least Prism continued pushing at me later in the day. I remain feeling decently good that I was disqualified from a NK by virtue of being in scumpools day1.

Personally I read safebets play as a townie trying to be provocative and push things to gauge a reaction, but yeah I see what youre saying I just feel based off your input you look a good target for a nk based off how much you are trying to solve the game and figure players out align the slots etc.

[Spartan117]

Hey I'm back entirely now, sorry it took a bit.

As much as I want more pretty tables, I'm not convinced at this stage partner analysis is all that useful. Hell, I'm having trouble putting together a scumpool I feel comfortable with, so full on day2 partner analysis? Idk about that one. (Though remind me to review the original FlowTrap Official Day1 Partner Analysis™ after the game, and if he's got the two marked as likely pairs, I'll make one of my own day1 the next game I play).

Where I'm at:
town people:
{spartan, flow}
people that scare me, who I effort read as town, which is exactly what they want, and whom I really need to find a way to sort:
{floo, prism}
people who I don't really want to vote today, who I think are an easy frame, but whose reads I totally disagree with and who come off scummy this game (okay so it's just one person)
{fred}
scummy people:
{salsa}

I'm trying to figure out where the narrative of scum!Spartan is coming from, because I just do not see it. Only one scum game to compare to, like, 3+ years ago in an open setup (and I can't even find the gamethread), but given how quiet this thread has been in the last few days, I don't see why scum would be popping in, trying to get things moving again. Like for a game that has 45 pages of content, we've made maybe 3? Since the night?

So I'm jumping on the Salsa wagon today. Other wagons I'd consider: Prism, Floo, because I sure as hell aren't going to be able to sort them by reading them. No interest in a Fred vote today, I think enough people can eliminate that slot if my gut is wrong about that one without me. When I get a moment, I'm going to see if defensive towny vibes are a thing for Salsa generally, or if this is a deviation, because I'm still early enough in my mafia career to enjoy meta.

also, Fred, don't let me down, man. Why do you scumread not one but both of my townreads? Where did this Spartian sus appear from anyhow? I'm going to go digging and see who pointed fingers first.

VOTE: Salsabil

Why are you not willing to vote Fredrick? are you protecting him or something? It's very odd to me how you would rather vote Floo than vote Fredrick, I feel like while Floo hasnt posted the quantity of the rest their posts have had a lot of content and reads and have overall provided towards the town, while fredrick has yet in my eyes to provide a meaningful post, like this post of yours just gives me sus vibes that you can see your scum partner is struggling and youre trying to help guide him.

What from fredricks posts indicates to you he is townie, I have checked and I dont regard any of their posts to be legitimate pushes on players or any reads or anything of the like. It appears to me he wishes to be a passenger on this train and ride along posting without getting noticed, and I feel the only reason he didnt get lynched D1 was because Enchant was more of an attraction for everyone to jump on instead while he hid in the shadows.

The sus from Fredrick on me all comes from me sussing him and him not having any answers to it.

[Spartan117]

Also I'm in the middle of writing some reads / elaborating on why I scumread Salsabil. It looks like an essay, and I won't be able to finish it until tomorrow.

Christ, I already TR this without having read said essay.

So what I'm coming to realize is that we have four very pro town slots.

Floo writes a 5 paragraph essay with MLA citations (anticipated publication date early 2021)
Prism gets genuinely hurt/concerned that I'm using their aspirations of being a diplomat to scumread them, generally tries to break up fights
FlowTrap makes not one but two partner charts with clearly considered and detailed takes for each, generally plays relaxed and in accordance with their chaos meta
Spartan posts their long, detailed, point by point responses with receipts

I'm sitting here trying to determine if any of these people make these same plays as scum. Spartan's seems the most replicable as scum on the surface, but honestly, metadive shows them even more verbose and detailed than usual, and I'm really struggling to see why scumSpartan would be working quite this hard. Today's posts have also been good. I like the slot.

But the exact scumworld of {Fred, Salsa} does not feel correct to me. That partnership doesn't make a ton of sense, and Fred makes my miselim spidey senses tingle. So one of these +town players is probably not town, but...how. Like I know I'm town, and I look at my posts like, all of these people are playing way better as town than I am. So that's unfortunate.

What do you think on the possibility on 1 of sal/fredrick and 1 of floo/flowtrap/prism being the scum partnership?
Do you think a floo/flow trap, floo/prism or flow trap/prism partnership would be viable?

[Spartan117]

Sorry about this, but this game will need to wait till tomorrow. I haven't had the will to read any part of this thread in detail today.

You've had a day, so are you going to answer my challenge below or are we going to see another prodge?

I'll set you a challenge, in your 75 posts quote us which ones have you providing meaningful content trying to solve the game, otherwise I'm placing my vote on you.

[Spartan117]

Spoiler:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Spartan117 has justified their scumread of me despite the fact that I have stated that he stated an opinion that had no justification.

Allow me to correct you Fredrick, because you are wrong. It honestly really frustrates me because I share the same concerns of flow trap that there is a chance you might be town and a miselim on you would be a big problem for us, if you are actually town you are making this really hard for us. But you continue to act the most sus player here, you have had as much time as everyone else here to read the thread we have had the night phase where you had time to catch up and work towards providing a meaningful contribution, there have been two player deaths which you could review the wagon on Enchant and EZs flip on which you could review their interactions and who might want them dead, there is lots of material for you to use to actually try and solve the game whilst you would rather talk to the dead. If you want to scumread me that's fine, I'm all for it, but provide reasoning play the game if you are town, quote my posts that you think are scummy and explain what you think about my actions that are so suspicious, because I don't want to lose this game just because you can't be bothered to check my ISO...

VOTE: floo

Very scummy vote imo, has been lurking around and posting but still yet to provide any sort of detailed reads of their own as if they are unable to because they know everyone is town. Here voting off the back of other peoples reads without providing any sort of breakdown as to why they actually think they are sus or bringing anything new to the table.

Here in 215 I explained my read on you and your only response was watery and meaningless in 357 and 364.

Let me make this very clear. The part of your statement where you say "as if they are unable to because they know everyone is town." is an opinion. If you want me to take that seriously, you need to show me more reasons why you think that is the case. Otherwise, expect me to ignore that.

Fredrick
comes in with 90 their random vote on safebet seeming potentially a little opportunistic to jump on early to a potential reverse wagon that didn't formulate.
166 strange reaction to being voted, lack of desire to input thoughts and fight for reads, very reserved and not very townie.
173 again refusal to providing meaningful content with a mindset of "I don't have to" very much keeping their cards close to their chest, making it hard to get a well rounded read on them.
185 states that he is expressing his opinion on something but provides a pretty nothing statement that contradicts itself.
211 212 jumps on the back of Sals reasoning without providing any fresh ideas of their own to vote Floo, seems like a very scummy vote to me. something I called out in 215 which I don't believe was ever properly answered by them.

I don't like Fredricks aloofness and lack of pushing for reads, he has appeared to me very opportunistic, as for someone who should be one of the far more experienced members of this group as an SE and isn't pushing conversation or contributing to uncovering scum, if anything it feels like he is scum hiding in plain sight.
VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

Your comment on 166 does not explain why you think the reaction was strange. The rest of the comment says "lack of desire to input thoughts and fight for reads, very reserved and not very townie." It, however, does not explain why does any of what you observe make it "not very townie."

Your comment on 173 says that I refused to provide meaningful content. Any attempt to read the post would demonstrate that I was not refusing to provide meaningful content and was refusing something else entirely.

Your comment on 185 fails to point out the non-existant contradiction. Also, I disagree that it is a "pretty nothing statement."

Your comment on 211 212 simply states that it is a very scummy vote to you. I was given no indication of what may change your mind.

Finally, you further state what makes you think I am scum. However, the comments on which you base your conclusion on are not falsifiable and you do not have any reason to make any of these conclusions.

Here in 746 where I share my reads I go into detail breaking down your posts and giving an explanation as to why I voted you D1, the fact that you are an SE and are an experienced player and are doing this just makes me think you aren't very experienced playing as scum. You seem to struggle to formulate reads, providing twice as many posts as floo while they have provided plenty of content, breakdown of their thoughts and reads.

Overall you come across as a very defensive player who seems to have something to hide. 166 173 show you being over defensive and look to be afraid of the spotlight being put on you. Requires meaning on why they are being scum read in order to respond and contribute but then doesnt provide any meaning behind their own votes, as seen in 191 212 (212s only elaboration appears to be in the meaningless post of 364 ) 626 853

And now, you think 166 and 173 are "defensive and look to be afraid of the spotlight being put on you" for no reason. I "Requires meaning on why they are being scum read in order to respond" only when asked to defend myself.

He likes to appear to be playing the game casting votes without actually applying any pressure, not actually contributing anything to the group which is indicative of scum.

863 makes me laugh because you actually request the reasoning for my opinion while quoting my reasoning breaking down your posts with me explaining why I think you are scum. You state

There was no reasoning for your opinion for me to argue against

I'll set you a challenge, in your 75 posts quote us which ones have you providing meaningful content trying to solve the game, otherwise I'm placing my vote on you.

I refuse to place my vote on you now as I do not wish to put you to L-1 at this moment in time when D2 has only just begun, I do not want you or your scum buddy to come along and hammer you, there is still much discussion to be had and people to hear from, and after all there are 2 scum.

I had planned to put my attention on Sal and review their posts in answer to their 1080 and I shall do, but to do it justice I shall have to do that later.

So everyone here we are, another day another single post from fredrick, I simply do not understand why he is being defended, where are his contributions this post if you could even call it that is just another attempt to deflect and be dismissive. In 1104 I proposed to you a challenge Fredrick and you didn't even attempt it, I'm hardly surprised tbh. So this single post of yours which I had to wait a whole 2 days for, disregards all of what I have said, and responds with this...

Let me make this very clear. The part of your statement where you say "as if they are unable to because they know everyone is town." is an opinion. If you want me to take that seriously, you need to show me more reasons why you think that is the case. Otherwise, expect me to ignore that.

You are an SE who has experience with this game, yet all you can do is dismiss what I say, openly announcing, I should expect you to ignore what I write. Its frustrating like what am I suppose to work with when you are not going to provide anything and try your hardest to be as scummy as possible.

Your comment on 211 212 simply states that it is a very scummy vote to you. I was given no indication of what may change your mind.

Fredrick why are you asking me what may change my mind, why would it matter to townFredrick what you would need to do to appease me to take my vote off you, how about like I have pleaded with you to actually play the game and try and find scum instead of being a spectator and prodge whenever you feel like it.

I'll set you a challenge, in your 75 posts quote us which ones have you providing meaningful content trying to solve the game, otherwise I'm placing my vote on you.

Like I said, I set you a challenge and you failed, I honour my word VOTE: Fredrick

[Spartan117]

VOTE: Spartan117

Any reason in particular?

[Spartan117]

cool

[Spartan117]

wanna go through thoughts on the others? what do you think of floos recent emergence with lots more posts and effort than d1?

[Spartan117]

hes my strongest town read atm

[Spartan117]

Could you show me why you think Fredrick is town, and why you are defending him?

[Spartan117]

ok fair enough, but is that the only reason you think he is town?

[Spartan117]

I think his reaction to my fake suspicion was plausible

You have also conveniently cut out the next part in this same post where you say "you do have a case"

[Spartan117]

I think his reaction to my fake suspicion was plausible

You have also conveniently cut out the next part in this same post where you say "you do have a case"

Ahahahaha, but you see it was irrelevant to the question at hand!

not sure what's funny and the sudden change in colour, did you not expect me to check the full contents of the post, of course it is relevant, I'm asking you why you are town reading him and you provide me with a post where you give a reason you think he might be town and then cut out the part which is directed to EZ saying you might have a case where EZ was looking to vote him in 468 and then when called out on it you now say its irrelevant, but the only evidence you have provided of your town reason also balances out your read to say to EZ he might have a case for a Fredrick Lynch, so how is this information irrelevant and why so irrelevant that you felt the need to cut out them extra 6 words?

[Spartan117]

'Tis, not a laugh of laughter but a laugh of discovery!

As do be it, their behavior has not changed a lick, so in conclusion while consistent; I do say it appears they are trying to cloak their partner in mysterious mystery!

As a psychologist, it could indeed be however unlikely that they are in a Pavlov response to being praised for a response.

Have you just evolved into your final form, are you super saiyan? you are talking in riddles now.

so are you saying fredricks behaviour has not changed but then exclaim that they are cloaking their partner in mystery, which makes no sense because you said he is a town read of yours? have you lost your mind? have you finally gone bonkers?

[Spartan117]

Well just because I think FaC is town doesn't mean my alter does

So should we start reading you as one alignment and your alt as another?

[Spartan117]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's the flow trap we know

[Spartan117]

hey guys! not quite sure how replacing into a game at this stage is gonna go, but i figured id give it a shot to test myself. i was decently confident of my slot being town based on a quick skim of the last few pages - i felt her frustration at not being understood and her decision to leave abruptly was coming from a town's POV. i'd much rather replace into town than scum, so yeah.

how would you guys like me to approach this? read through the whole thread first or provide reads bit by bit? im thinking the former will be less annoying, but i'd like to ask questions about the early stages of the game even if it's from like 2 weeks ago. tell me wat ya think.

VOTE: quiet this dude's maf btw

Apologies for the delay I have been very busy irl. Welcome Fairy I understand it will prob be quite a challenge to jump in this far in, the best of luck. Just reading through the last couple pages.

[Spartan117]

Spartan117, it is brilliant of you, knowing how little time I spend per day on this game, to continue making wall after wall with the expectation that I will respond to it and forget to read the rest of the thread.

Please point out where you have provided some detailed reads proving insight for us to work with, any thoughts on all the people here who youve not shared what alignment you think they are, where do you rank everyone?

Actually, Spartan117, I am kind of getting why you are scumreading me now. Not that I can do anything about it, though.

Sure you can just keep posting and providing your thoughts, give us something to worth with rather than lurking and prodging.

Another attempt to deflect and be dismissive? How is trying my best to respond to everything within my time constraints "another attempt to deflect and be dismissive?"

In the two days since this post where you have answered the questions I have proposed to you let alone, questions the others have asked of you, if this is trying your best, I honestly am not sure this is the right sorta thing for you. You still havent even attempted to answer the challenge I set you.

VOTE: floo

Why after Prism says they are never not voting floo in 1269 (something I still don't understand as there are far scummier players, floo has actually been trying to solve the game and has natural reads rather than just town reading everyone like quiet) does two posts later Fredrick vote floo without any reasoning what so ever, as if to jump on a band wagon yet again, it seems like their play style to vote whoever other people see as sus which is just major scum vibes and I seriously don't understand why people are town reading you at all.

I have the feeling that Spartan117 is deliberately misinterpreting my posts to scumread me. Why do you townread Spartan117?

Rather than just trying to deflect my points in general and say you think im deliberately misinterpreting your posts how about you actually say what posts you think that refers to than just making a wild unexplained statement, are you afraid of me scumreading you is that it? how about you tell us why you are town, tell me what you have done in this whole game that allows us to read you as town. You have been aloof and provided no info and have been very scummy all game, I really do not understand where the town reads are coming from...

[Spartan117]

I think the round is dragging out so who are we shooting?

How about you? Since you are so desperate for this day to end?

[Spartan117]

Actually I'm tired of gentle encouragement/being patient just because you've *~consistently~* been difficult all game.

I want to vote floo. If I can't get floo, and you're transparently not even sorting at all, I will absolutely vote you and feel zero remorse about it if you flip town. Even Frederick is trying.

Why is floo your main target, why are they a better vote than Fredrick, Sal/Fairy, or Quiet?

Please show me where you see fredrick is actually trying? I feel its as if I am reading a completely different game to you guys are some of the posts hidden that he is posting?

[Spartan117]

I'm not random voting and just because I don't state my reads doesn't mean I don't have them

Unhelpful

You are ignoring when I actually make reads

Contradicting and unhelpful...

[Spartan117]

No one has ever listened to me before in my life so idk how to argue for any point

Flow, dude, we are all here listening just speak to us we just want to solve this and that will be so much easier if yourself and fredrick would speak more openly and help sort players rather than hiding your point of views.

[Spartan117]

Fairy is off the table today for me as well.

Why has your perspective on this changed, is this just to allow fairy to share their perspective with the group in which case I would understand, or has your position on the slot changed after you was so happy to place your vote on Sal previously?

Fred popping in a bit is good, but I still feel like I don't have a good read on how they see the game other than the two slots they are suspicious of; I don't really understand why Fred is suspicious of them precisely, but I see this as a good sign. Still not interested in a Fred elim today.

Why are you not interested in a Fred elim today? are you protecting him? I don't understand why you flow trap and prism are town reading this slot, can someone please show me where they have been town, show me where they have pushed for reads, show me where they have shared even some detailed reads on players of their own, something? anything? that in itself moves the game along?

My worry at this point is that there is a Flow trap/Prism/Quiet scum team where they are keeping fredrick around today so that they have him for the final 5 tomorrow, if he is supposedly town and easy lynch bait, it has already been agreed that if enchant didnt impload D1, Fredrick would have been the best D1 lynch target, at least he certainly was from my pov.

Prism is locktown to me.

Why?

Flow Trap is town to me.

Why?


Are one of these your scum buddy?

Vote order as of right this second is:
floo->spartian/fred->flow->fairy->prism

Why is floo your main scum read? And why have I been put inline with Fredrick, looking at our ISOs do you think they matchup? do you think we have provided a similar output in terms of reads, pushes, trying to get the game moving, like seriously he has been prodging multiple times and hasnt provided any meaningful reads. I don't like that you seem to town read everyone, it is way easier as scum to just say everyone is town rather that trying to push people and find the suspicious things they have done and actually investigate as town. It seems to me you are just trying to stay under the radar and blend in, it is typical of scum to struggle to form reads on people something that looks very apparent from your content. It looks to me as you are either trying to protect your scum buddy Fredrick or carry him through to the last 5 with either Prism or Flow trap.

I'm really struggling to find people to elim where I don't feel scared about it coming up green

While this could be genuine I feel like its more likely that you don't wish to upset anybody, you seem way too reserved to be town, more likely scum hidden in a guise of words.

VOTE: quiet

[Spartan117]

Vote order as of right this second is:
floo->spartian/fred->flow->fairy->prism

Also why in your order of scum to town, do you have fairy second, while you was voting her just a couple days ago? but now you have her more town above flow trap in your view, where is the progression with this? I had a town lean on sal myself but some of that was influenced by what appeared to be everyone going at sal while no one seemed to be defending her, and I wasn't able to decide who I would see as her scum buddy at the time for how things were playing out.

[Spartan117]

Bolded I actively disagree with, Salsabil vote was very much working backwards. floo is trying to explain but the more he does the more it's clear that he had no consideration for what a town Salsabil reaction looks like.

Are you scum reading floo based of Sals reaction rather than the intent that floo had to try and gain a reaction from her?

Also you havent said why they are more sus than fredrick, fairy or quiet? just that you didnt like their interaction with Sal

[Spartan117]

I'm referring to the sequence of Frederick posts on Page 50. His posting isn't stellar and he's not a townread, I was using this purely to try and motivate flow trap. This will have to suffice for my answer on Frederick; I'm not voting a coinflip over a real scumread unless I have to. "Coinflip" is a bit generous but you get the point.

I will have to disagree with you on this, while there may be 8 posts in succession I see it as more of a elongated prodge, I did't feel like it contributed much to the discussion and I defo dont understand those that townread him for it.

[Spartan117]

I'm not random voting and just because I don't state my reads doesn't mean I don't have them

Unhelpful

You are ignoring when I actually make reads

Contradicting and unhelpful...

You. Just. Proved. My. Point

Which point?

[Spartan117]

@Quiet who's flip do you think provides us with the most information?

[Spartan117]

re: 1319 I guess I can see why you scumread quiet but this seems to be panic accusatory? Like that went a long way from grandstanding about how Frederick isn't town at all to voting quiet for either defending a scumbuddy or trying to get it voted in 5 way.

I guess it's logically consistent but quiet hits most of your criteria for townreading floo-active, well reasoned (he's explained the townread on me SEVERAL times at this point and at least once was exactly right) and the worst thing about the slot is having too many townreads. floo has been actively pushing Salsabil for being upset, baited more out of her, and when called on it has jumped through hoops about how he was looking for fear with....still no evidence he has seriously considered her emotions being legitimate as town at any point. Half of his last post was more about how he went too far/how he was sorry as though I'm voting him for showing no remorse. I'm voting him because he got a reaction that suggested her being upset

was legitimate

and done all sorts of gymnastics to why he should actually not really worry about it.

Not panic accusatory at all, are you scared your scum buddy has a couple votes on them? I don't know the solution to this puzzle I am trying to view all possible scenarios that make sense to me, a Prism/(Sal/Fairy) is also included in that in my view. floo is a stronger town read for me atm and how you are going at them defending a potential Sal teamate (or using the sal V floo situation) looks a bit opportunistic, I don't see a floo/Prism team at all, my concern is on the possibility it is TvT and we have an imposter team of two from Quiet/Fredrick/FlowTrap/Fairy hmm I feel like I'm the opposite of Quiet where I'm sussing everyone where he town reads everyone.

[Spartan117]

Prism, I apologize for acting like a jerk sometimes; I have decided to trust you can will answer (almost) anything you ask to the best of my ability

It's okay, and I appreciate this.

Personally, I want to know why you don't really want to vote floo today.

That said, my whole point here is that it's a team game. I'm not the only channel/avenue to dialogue through; I don't think talking to scum is the worst thing in the world and there are other town with thoughts as valid as mine. I'm down to talk about any slot you want, and I imagine quiet is as well.

I have a bad habit of just TRing the first person to make a move and then basically ignoring them for the rest of the game...

This is why I decided to ISO them to see if I still want to TR them

They start off with a town vote, but then they play "I don't want to seem suspicious" post which I believe is #77. However; I do find their explanation (351) to be completely valid as I have stated before town shouldn't go out of their way to seem suspicious which is fair as they were indeed going for that POV. Some solid posts between 77 and 351. Their next post (355) worries me; I believe it was brought up how Salsa was suspicious due to taking a joke seriously, I'm getting the same sort of vibe here. In post 348 they reinforce the "town shouldn't go out of their way to be suspicious" idea which I find town as well as this:

"Hello I'm Mafia I want to blend in!" - floo
"OK Mafia" - Sal

Sarcastic annoyance=town IMO

States a suspicion on Zoomer in 439 which I will come back to later. Then they have a streak of neutral posts. I found 1005 off, I don't like how they push here , probably it's because they are adding fuel to the FaC+Enchant idea. Back to Zoomer, I found the eating to be a double-edged sword on the town side mafia doesn't usually want to kill their fake scum reads, but on the other hand, they acknowledged that Zoomer was widely TRed so they were aware of it.

Day 2

I found their push overall towny, it does have a few lows, however. Reading it back it is sounding mildly tunnely since they are talking about salsa 90% of their early posts, not that I find that suspicious. The emotional push could go either way as Town determination or Mafia emotional shutdown. I had to skim the latter half of their posts and nothing stood out.

Overall I still find floo town

I like this, makes me feel better about flow trap.

[Spartan117]

I like this, makes me feel better about flow trap.

What's that suppose to be? for your reference the reason I like your post is that I like how you didn't just join the current status quo and jump on the wagon of scumfloo and actually tried to assess it yourself and produce your own read.

[Spartan117]

A few days ago, I bought into the over-defensive Salsa as scum world. Getting to the point of replacing out? Then being replaced by someone who entered the game in exactly the manner I did as town, giving rather good reads as far as I can determine? My only concern is that Fairy’s read on flow trap felt a little sheepy, but I realized they were a little more reserved on that, so I’m tabling that suspicion for now.

I don't see why a new person with a new perspective/views/reads, should remove the previous view you had on sal, they are both the same slot and alignment and I feel you are throwing everything out the window from your view on sal from some iniital good reads from fairy which I believe were from the beginning of the game? which wouldn't exactly be hard to fake given all of the content is there after and as scum its possible to backtrack. I personally had townie vibes from Sal I felt like the emotion they spoke with was genuine of frustrated townie and I could relate especially with the annoyance with flow trap and the like. Although I agree with some of the points that floo made regarding Sal and was going to make them to sal to see what they thought myself before she switched out which I state I was going to do but was preoccupied with fredrick at the time and that along with restrictions of time from irl events got in my way. I had already originally seen even from day 1 situations where Sal had reacted in a way that presented itself as scared of being read as scum which I feel is not something town are as bothered about as scum are, with the player numbers dynamic it is much more crushing to get lynched as scum in terms of your chances to win with there only being 1 other scum left while for town if they are lynched there are several others depending on the day to continue to scum hunt to achieve a win. Anyway I fully agreed that there were defo signs from sal of concern from being scum reads with the use of emojis and dismissive language. Now ofc this isnt something we are likely to see from fairy they are a completely different person with different tells and personality so it is futile to expect to correspond the two in the same way. at the end of the day the only thing these two people share is the alignment of their slot so it requires a completly fresh look but important to keep the sal reads in mind when evaluating their stance on players etc.

[Spartan117]

Top vote today is spartianFloo cluster of I could see either. I'm leaning voting spartian by just a little bit because I hate the absence, and I happen to know how I flip, so them pushing me for mediocre reasons makes me like them less than Floo who I have no proof about at this stage.

My brain says there are two scum in {floo, spartian, fred, flow trap}, where fred and flow are just hard to vote up today.

Spartian seemed willing to vote up Fred today and pushed pretty hard at me for not being willing to do so, which makes a Spartian/Fred team hard to see. Fred is also voting floo right now. So I guess that suggests {Spartian, Flow Trap}, but flow has been voting Spartian from well before needing to bus. So that team really doesn't make a lot of sense either.

I find it incredibily scummy you saying you "hate my absence" when I have been soo much more active in this game both d1 and 2 than fredrick and you seem adamant to protect him (he has been prodging and posting empty posts the vast majority of the game, I'll admit i think a couple of his posts in the last day or 2 whereever it was did look progressive but that does not wipe away the previous idk how many days of nothing), yet you are leaning a vote on me because of my absense, I have been busy with irl and only just had time to come online, also being that it is currently 1am here for me and the deadline is at 5am my time, why do you think my reason for pushing you is mediocre when you seem so keen to protect fredrick without providing any actual proof as to why you think they are town, show me their posts that show them as a town read for you.

If you have no proof of at this stage, can you please show me where you have proof of me being scum then if that is what you are insinuating as it certainly sounds like it. I know I am town and I read floo as town so I dont like either of us being the main targets of the wagons at all...

[Spartan117]

Spartian, if you like consistency in behavior, then I'm assuming you don't hate the floo slot, who has been consistent with their reads. They're your big counterwagon, whats your read on them? Or is there a third option that you can sell me on?

No the complete opposite I actually find them my strongest town read, I have stated previously how I see them as town and don't agree with the pressure put on them, I have not had a complete chance to review the floo vs prism/quiet/fairy discussion at this point.

Fredrick is my main scum read as it has been obvious this game I do not like their play one bit and have detailed out why on several occasions. I had a townie lean on Sal d1 from their output, I didnt like the instant vote on Fredrick as soon as D2 started which I commented on, and with further evaluating D1 and what has happened since on d2 I didnt like Sals reactions to being scum read which has already been wildly talked about already, I have not had a chance yet to go through fairys content, and am about to attempt to answer any other questions that have been posted for me since I last posted last night before I went to bed.

[Spartan117]

Howdy Spartan, welcome!

Can you remind me why you specifically asked floo if they'd be willing to vote me earlier?

Sure, multiple reasons, I was still evaluating their slot at the time to try and see where I gauged them and I wanted to see how easily it might be to see if they would jump on a vote for someone especially a more townie read slot, I had some concern at the time on if they might be partnered with Sal which obviously I don't think is possible now given the events of D2. and so I wanted to see if they would jump on that to try and divert attention away from some of the weaker townies and general scum reads of the group at the time, mostly fredrick and Sal. it was a reaction test in that sense, in the same light I wanted to see if they would push back on it if they would have been defensive of you and your play d1 if there could have been any hint at a floo prism partnership as I was entertaining the idea of a scum team of 2 strong townies, although floo was more on the better side of that for me, but was willing to engage with me so I wanted to test it and see how they would react.

Did you feel singled out that I had asked him about you in particular?

[Spartan117]

That would be relevant if you wanted floo gone while maintaining a TR them.

I do not want floo gone, please do not lynch floo I believe he is town and I can only forsee the same events of d1 happening again, also I did not just let enchant get killed off without trying to defend him properly, let me go and check the time stamps of the posts from the end of d1 to explain what happened.

[Spartan117]

What I mean by your absence is the read that's been given by a few people now that you are willing to sit back and let other people get elimed without getting your hands dirty.

Ok to start with in 838, I did an evaluation of enchant from my perspective and explained my thoughts on their slot, I felt that their jokey trolly attitude was quite reactive and was benefiting town with the reactions it was obtaining, drawing attention to themselves which is not something i feel mafia would do, especially at that early stage, I then went through the self vote situation and calling themself scum post from a devils advocate perspective on what if they are town, because truly I did not know they were town although I had read them as so previous, it was also entirely possible they were scum and I had just misread them, but with everyone else jumping on the wagon of well enchants obv scum now, I thought well what if hes not and looked at that perspective and thats what you see in 838, I had more intention of posting more on enchant although both times I was active and available at that time I received little to nothing back when I wanted someone active to engage with at the time. I posted 890 during my lunch break at work asking for people to engage with me which I received nothing bar Sal saying to kill flow trap...
My only other post before the lynch was 989 which was right after I had gotten off from work and was trying to skim through what had been happening at that time Enchant only had 3 votes on them, needing 5 with fredrick on 2 and sal on 1 at that time too, and when questioning what was going on and why it was so quiet all i got was an idk from flow trap and maybe its time to end the round, so i had very little to engage with, and had seen how self defeated enchant was, and to be totally honest I did agree with enchants statement that if he was kept alive and we had some other random lynch (who at least wasnt fredrick) then enchant would be kept around for an easy lynch in the last 5 if thats how it played out, I'm not going to say I went out of my way to help them as i was more focused on my scum reads than protecting people, but i felt like I tried to see the possibility of them being town and how that matched my reads.

[Spartan117]

oh wow spartan makes a case on and votes quiet in 1319. WTF? what da heck happened to Frederick?

Fredrick is my main scum read, but with it seeming like no one else willing to vote him, i felt it pointless to just keep my vote on him and trying to put my vote on quiet to get more of a read from him and apply pressure, i felt it better to move the game along rather than just to have someone i scum read and just leave my vote on them and do nothing. each persons vote is important and its a valuable tool i am getting pretty exhausted by all the content here atm there is so much to try and go through it feels like the complete opposite to the end of d1, i still have at least a few pages from before to go through while also trying to respond to the new content coming out both involving me and also content i feel important to comment on. I am trying my best guys, will keep working nearly 2am here btw

[Spartan117]

You need to explain your reads and how you're playing.

Why?

Can we all just vote flow trap out, i have seriously had enough of this, its so counter productive especially at this stage, why is he being town read again, how can he be so maverick he is being town locked...

[Spartan117]

why the everloving hell has spartan completely backed off Frederick who he's been gunning for the whole game

Not backed off him at all, will vote him in a heartbeat

[Spartan117]

You need to explain your reads and how you're playing.

Why?

Can we all just vote flow trap out, i have seriously had enough of this, its so counter productive especially at this stage, why is he being town read again, how can he be so maverick he is being town locked...

Oh, so you can ask why but I can't

I dont know if i just misread what was going on, were you refusing to share your reads and saying why should you explain to the group your thoughts on why you are voting people at this late crutial state near the deadline of D2 so we can better understand where you are coming from so as to make better more informed decisions? or did i misunderstand?

[Spartan117]

@prism

i feel at least partially your read on floo is influenced by your attitude towards mafia games, and perhaps of life itself. you love diplomacy, social harmony, emotional intelligence. i think when you're reading floo you're putting yourself in

his

shoes and coming away from it knowing you'd treat Salsa completely different. and that's fine. i just don't think floo has any motive to accomodate salsa's feelings - he scumreads her afterall, and his entire MO in that exchange was provocation for reactions. do you think the difference in philosophy could be skewing your read a bit?

I like this read from you fairy I think this is a very good analysis of what might have been going on between prism and floo, unless there might have been some extra influence causing the push, im not sure but I like what you are doing here.

[Spartan117]

My point is you need to fight for your votes. It doesn't matter if you're right if you lose the game.

You want me to defend Quiet?

I am not asking you to defend anyone, but can you please tell me and everyone else here why you are scum reading quiet and myself (from 1473 seen below), i dont care that you are scum reading me i just want you to express why that is the case so I can better understand you, im worried of there being a chance you get flipped d2 and youre town and we still never know why you think anyone is anything, please help us solve this puzzle, if you are town there must be a shred in you that wants to actually win this, than you just being completely 100% you will go down with your ship that you know you are right but now one else will know what you know.

No it's not you would be stepping on my foot if you voted quiet

I SR spartan & Quiet so I switched

[Spartan117]

I dont know if i just misread what was going on, were you refusing to share your reads and saying why should you explain to the group your thoughts on why you are voting people at this late crutial state near the deadline of D2 so we can better understand where you are coming from so as to make better more informed decisions? or did i misunderstand?

I

have

stated all my reads

then restate them or at least tell me what posts they are in, rather than me trying to do a cryptic treasure hunt, its 2am ive not got time for that im still trying to go through everyone elses posts, like i said d1 you are so anti town its not even funny, I know i am town and some of the rest of us here are town, whether you are just some spicy town who is inadvertently helping scum or if you are scum its just sooo anti town to do what you do. during a normal point in any irl day its frustrating enough but on deadline day for d2 we neeed more, if you are so convinced myself and quiet are the scum team, tell us why you are so sure everyone else is town help us read them, work with us, please.

[Spartan117]

can i just also say that scum team chart that was made i think twice both times by flow trap if im not mistaken obv didn't have him on it either time so is basically irrelevant if he is scum, ive just seen that talked about a few times about how great it was that it was made and wanted to bring it up

[Spartan117]

Blah blah stuff about Spartan & Quiet

This doesn't explain why you are scumreading myself and quiet?

[Spartan117]

i dont care that you are scum reading me i just want you to express why that is the case so I can better understand you

See 674 & 1434

So you are scum reading me in reference to the following two posts..?

Yet you don't show any examples of where you think i have tried to pocket someone or dismissed suspicion on me?

Nah... I don't think he tried to pocket me. Can you mention the post number where do you think the attempt to pocket me happened?

I mean you can't be aware of a successful pocket attempt, nor do I think a pocket attempt would be done in one post

you know you're town, so you're going to treat suspicion agaisnt you flippantly/dismissively. there's a sense of entitlement in playing town in which you can't see why people would think you're scummy

I strongly disagree, dismissing suspicions on you is super scummy

[Spartan117]

I have 15 minutes before I lock in my vote

You missed your window.

[Spartan117]

or is it the case that your vote is locked where it currently is, which is on quiet?

[Spartan117]

I'm sticking with Quiet

Ah ok glad for the clarification do we get an explanation? are you going to try to convince anyone to join at this late stage?

[Spartan117]

I share your concerns about Frederick in general, and obviously I'm not a fan of flow trap's day today, but part of why I want to vote floo in the end is simply because I think it's a safe bet (222, hue).

I've obviously gotten very worked up and a bit neurotic. I spent a lot of my walk trying to rein that in and recenter. This game is not about me vs. fferyllt, the game is about voting scum and ideally doing it together. I hope I am right on floo, naturally. I think there are good reasons to think you and fairy are both town but a large part of me simply

wants it to be true

, and I'd rather force both of you to take a stand you believe in rather than pass the buck at deadline and let chaos rein. This is probably better for us in the shortterm as town, and is definitely better for us in the longrun if I am wrong and either of you are mafia, particularly with floo. I have a long history of being a town dictator, but I also have a long history of nailing one and letting the other escape me.

Please don't vote floo, I really read him as town (I feel like you are trying to get away with a floo lynch without any of the responsibility of being the causing factor on a floolynch), in comparison to fredrick it shouldnt even be a question he has just lurked around prodged and contributed little to nothing, floo has produced natural reads and is seriously my strongest town read.

[Spartan117]

Fred: Just...a null slot that at this point has a >50% chance of flipping scum

Why is he null after 2 in game days of content, is it because there isnt any content from him after 2 in game days? can this truly make him null?

[Spartan117]

Why is he null after 2 in game days of content, is it because there isnt any content from him after 2 in game days? can this truly make him null?

Yes, I really do think this makes him null. I'm one full game in, and I've already been burned by lurking town more than once. It is entirely possible. I am reading him based on AoE not lack of content.

AoE remind me again, its 3:30am here and im zonked out of my mind

[Spartan117]

Final D2 reads

Nice to see you join us before the end of D2.

We have just over an hour before D2 ends with a no elim, you guys know what my thoughts are.

VOTE: Fredrick

[Spartan117]

Ah appologies just noticed Quiet had also voted fredreick

L-1

they have 3 votes on them currently

[Spartan117]

I am around, I am literally so half asleep i think im a quarter awake or something idk anymore its 4:22am here and i just wish these deadlines werent at 5am my time aha but what can ya do I wanted to see what happens just encase anyone else comes back or provides any input before the deadline that i could have some input on that i might feel might benefit town from my perspective

[Spartan117]

I am pretty much on this with fredrick rn and not totally sure why you are trying to pull it off fredrick and onto flow trap, i mean i can see some logic in terms of sorting the slots tomorrow but from their play fredrick has been far scummier than flow trap, i would say i have certainly seen some things from flow trap that can be seen as having townie motive, reaction testing etc but idk anymore, D1 they were the two i felt the worst about, and im not sure what happened to flow trap in that he seemed to be in the upper echelons floating in the clouds of everyone's reads that he was untouchable, and look where we are now, hmm idk

[Spartan117]

I still want floo first and please note that requires only 2 votes

No

[Spartan117]

if fredricks not going to get voted, ill vote flow trap to avoid a no elim but i would rather fredrick here tbh

[Spartan117]

I'm hammering at 11:45 EST, hypothetically we could still vote swap after then but someone falling asleep, someone being conveniently AFK scum, etc. makes coordinating not worth the risk imo

We cant vote swap after youve hammered right, when someones hammered thats it right?

[Spartan117]

nah when someone is hammered someone is hammered. I don't think anyone is hammered though

No one is hammered yet, but i certainly feel like im going to have a hangover tomorrow after this aha

[Spartan117]

I'm hammering at 11:45 EST, hypothetically we could still vote swap after then but someone falling asleep, someone being conveniently AFK scum, etc. makes coordinating not worth the risk imo

Do we have to wait this long, i dont want a no elim, whats going on? you guys are starting to worry me

[Spartan117]

guys its 19 mins left till the end of D2 right, please i dont want a no elim

[Spartan117]

is it 4 votes for a limmo

CMON BOYS WE CAN GET THE TRAP MAN

yes 4 votes for an lynch on D2

[Spartan117]

oh nevermind I thought fairy was on Fredrick and we just went to E-2. Thank christ that didn't happen.

So it's
Fred E-1
floo E-2
flow E-3
quiet E-3

No its you me and floo on fredrick atm, but im getting increasingly worried about how close we are to the deadline

[Spartan117]

Wait I forgot that Fairy wasn't a Frederick vote, don't need their vote atm

VOTE: Frederick

Maybe see y'all tomorrow

Ok thats the end of D2 im glad we didnt miss the elim

[Spartan117]

Looks like im a little late to the party, didn't exactly expect to make it all the way to d3 aha, unlike flow trap i didn't write up any notes before hand (although i am starting to doubt by the time stamps of these posts how much was pre start of d3?) as i guess i feel even if i make it to the next day my opinion will change after i see the nk flip and the usefulness of the information will have expired.

To be clear, my instinct is you/floo or floo/Spartan.

I'm curious why you are so sure its not quiet? You seem to not even entertain the option, from my perspective its 2 scum out of flow trap you and quiet as I get much more of a townie read from floo than i do from any of the 3 of you, but im still entertaining the idea that it could be a floo/flow trap team etc just from my perspective I'm less sure about it.

[Spartan117]

I am currently leaning more flow trap/prism and prism/quiet than any other combination at this moment in time.

[Spartan117]

Do you have any thoughts on the end of day yesterday/did your reads evolve at all overnight?

I actually typed up 7+ pages of content during the night, which I am going to touch up since I was tired and therefore said things like: "had a right to be annoyed was, but they could be annoyed as that as mafia too"

How is 7+ pages going to present itself on here, is that like 7 A4 pages, how do you know its 7 pages in the forum context, that's an awfully large amount of content promised from you given your track record of content with reads etc that's which surprising.

[Spartan117]

ahaha please make sense of the kill from my perspective as scum

I think just from any perspective from anyone left, fairy looked like a strong progressive town player who burst on the scene, they certainly impressed me a lot more than Sal did with the vibe i was getting of them, not surprised of the flip personally.

[Spartan117]

@spartian, how are you feeling about Fred flip? Thoughts, reactions?

Personally quite annoyed and frustrated, I still think it was the right decision at the time given the "content" they had provided and to be honest with you I'd feel much more worried if they was in the last 5, given they flipped town it would have been game throwing to have them in the last 5 if we had not lynched mafia instead of him. While flow trap can be illusive they tend to be more conversational than Fredrick so I feel we can get more from him today than we would Fredrick, and hoping that someone just happens to change their behaviour and play just because its a day later is not a good idea in my opinion.

Ofc looking back on it now from this pov with the hindsight of freds flip id rather have flipped someone else but if that person had been town, then i think we would have been in a much worse position than we are now tbh.

[Spartan117]

Spartan, what do you think of this post of mine earlier?

Does this just like, ring zero alarm bells for you?

Erm im not sure, It's hard for me to say why someone else didn't respond to you as I dont't know but I can see your thought process behind the read, if that was the case of a me/floo scum team i dont think he would want to try and distance himself from his scum partner, if he thought I might be getting hard pushed and then the d2 lynch surely he would want to be involved to not appear off the wagon of his supposed scum partner.

[Spartan117]

ie. The fact that floo is obvscum in my opinion does not change because it is 5 way. I will absolutely review the quiet slot but that doesn't require me being at his throat immediately, it requires me to sit down and reread

Why do you think floo is obvscum? is it the same reasoning you had for scumreading him d2 or is there something else?

[Spartan117]

Prism, in what world do I get shot? Spartian, flow think I'm scum, I don't know what floo thinks but I think it's neutral at best, and you're openly concerned about me and have been for ages. Most damning, though it was Spartian's strong SR in part that drove my decision of floo vs. fred or flow, I was still the first on the Fred miselim wagon.

I just couldn't make a decent play yesterday it seems. Why would I get killed? I feel like I look terrible rn.

Am I doing the thing where somehow people TR me despite the fact that I feel like people SR me like crazy? Spartian SRed me at the start of the day yesterday for thinking people SRed me from day1 despite the fact that they found me towny after that. Is that about to happen again?

I can see you providing pro-town plays, I just need to decide if that's from town or from scum trying to appear as town, although I do stand by that I have found it sus you have struggled to nail down your views most of the time and have any real sus other than well everyone else is town so they must be sus it does come across as scum who is struggling to find reasons to scum read people. I've not got 1 person I specifically think is scum, its pretty open from my perspective atm.

[Spartan117]

To Spartan/Quiet who would you go for in the case of Prism/Floo

If I had to pick between the two of them it would be Prism but its not an easy choice.

[Spartan117]

Yes, I'm on my phone atm so it's hard for me to quote wall, but my view from Day 2 is unchanged and was strengthened by the Frederick flip. The fairyprincess slot isn't the worst shot given that I was defending it so hard, it had me locktown, and was iffy on both you and flow trap (No clue what they thought of quiet by EoD)

In contrast you're hard townreading floo, you/flow trap have me as a lukewarm townlean last I checked, and both of you are still alive

I wouldn't say my town read on floo is hard town reading but they are the stronger of my town reads sure but that doesn't mean that I'm not still evaluating all the interactions they have as well.

Half of my effort as scum this game would go towards protecting slots from eliminations, getting them to townread me, and shooting them instead of either letting them get voted or capitalize on the earned townreads.

The other half in this hypothetical would be pocketing quiet but like, there's three people that have locktowned me and only two nightkills

Interesting you say your effort if you was scum would be to protect slots from elim, geting them to town read you and then shoot them, when in your previous post you say

The fairyprincess slot isn't the worst shot given that I was defending it so hard, it had me locktown

hmm

[Spartan117]

Should I release the essay in parts or all at once?

In parts might make it easier to quote and reply to and we can start reading it when you are posting the other parts of it?

[Spartan117]

The point of my "Half of my effort..." hypothetical is based off how much effort I've put into the fairy/esoteric slots. My point being, I went through all that effort to get a townread from them as scum only to immediately shoot them is ???

Its so bonkers maybe its true aha

[Spartan117]

If I release it allllll at once, it's going to take a long time

Let me put it this way: You don't want me wondering if you're being truthful of your claim to have wrote it overnight.

Given its been 6 hours since he first told us about this legendary scripture its not looking good... why write it over the night time if your not gonna even post it when it comes to day

[Spartan117]

Prism, I've locked you as town and I don't think I'm capable of folding on that position without some SERIOUS pressure or someone beating me over the head with my own stupidity until I see the light. As a result, I'm trying to determine between the three of {spartian, floo, flow trap}, who the safest partner to both is. You pushing floo yesterday is a somewhat good sign, as I'm taking that info as clean. That's where my head is at.

Why are you so locktown on their slot? why do you require pressure from others to change your reads? it just come across as sus when your reads cant organically evolve and you just lock a read on someone and park it there because it feels safe.

[Spartan117]

Given its been 6 hours since he first told us about this legendary scripture its not looking good... why write it over the night time if your not gonna even post it when it comes to day

Because I am lazy and only wrote half of what I wanted

wait so are we getting 14 pages?

anyway im going to bed now so ill check it tomorrow when i get time

[Spartan117]

I haven't had the time to go through this today been very busy, will put aside some time tomorrow to go through whats happened, and properly review flow traps posts and answer prisms questions to me.

[Spartan117]

Ive been struggling a lot with things irl and am very sorry to have kept you all waiting, I aim to put a lot more effort in over the weekend, I am going to repond to a couple things since I last posted then re-read through Floos iso to point out my thoughts.

In contrast you're hard townreading floo, you/flow trap have me as a lukewarm townlean last I checked, and both of you are still alive

This.
Spartian, is there a chance that town!You is alive to continue defending floo here?

Though I wonder why they wouldn't shoot Prism in that case, who has by far the strongest floo SR, other than doctor WIFOM or because they think that shot makes it obvious. Still, seems worth discussing.

I think this is a very interesting point, and one i had not thought of before, i think in terms of the idea that keeping me alive to defend them, there has been more interaction between myself and prism, and i have been more worried about prisms slot than i was Sals/fairys swo there could be something in that not sure, if in the event it is scumfloo then nk prism looks worse for them as prism was actively going against and pushing them, while fairy was still formulating reads, if anything its like you know what you are getting with prism while it might have been the case that as fairy was more of an unopened box it was safer not to let it open, idk

[Spartan117]

@flow trap, do you like volcanos? Am I being dumb to consider those two as partners?

Yes & No

If it comes down to Prism v Floo, I'm

highly

requesting Quiet/Spartan to

not

place votes until I do; it will basically have the same outcome but protect against a Spartan+Prism/Floo+Quiet team

This is fine from your perspective, but from our perspective what about a flow trap+floo or prism+flowtrap team?

[Spartan117]

I have been trying to read through all the posts, ive not seen anything specific that i think i need to directly answer that takes precedence over my read of floo, let me go read through then after i have shared that i will need to sleep.

[Spartan117]

I thought that Day 2 was too much but actually tracking Spartan's progression here this is terrible.

Spartan, here's every explanation you've given for your floo townread.

floo

Floo's posts are few but tend to be emotive and full of thought, 124 pushing flow trap to get his read on safebet when he previously explained 2/3 of his reads is good to see very townie pushing for reads.
It's hard to find a lot about Floo but from what I have seen from reading everything through chronologically they seem to provide some straight forward towny input when they do contribute will keep an eye on this slot.

floo has actually been trying to solve the game and has natural reads rather than just town reading everyone like quiet)

Please don't vote floo, I really read him as town (I feel like you are trying to get away with a floo lynch without any of the responsibility of being the causing factor on a floolynch), in comparison to fredrick it shouldnt even be a question he has just lurked around prodged and contributed little to nothing,

floo has produced natural reads and is seriously my strongest town read.

Have mine and quiet's reads not "natural, straight forward towny input"? This is incredibly vague and hasn't changed at all since post 746.

You've constantly demanded to know why we're townreading various slots/going really far out of your way to discredit our reads at every turn but have failed to seriously evaluate this slot or explain this read in the slightest the entire game.

Below I am going to list a few quotes I found to give me a feeling of them being town, whether it was from them trying to scum hunt/sort people, or engage with others.

With the game becoming more serious, I can explain my motives. I switched my RVS vote from Enchant to flow trap because I wanted to see where a conversation would go. flow trap's posting style is lighthearted with a lot of small talk and interactions with other player, as one of the most active users so far (might be the most active in terms of post count). I stated my vote was "partially serious" (40) to avoid seeming suspicious from an apparent OMGUS (as you guessed) and a second (apparently) random vote. I am explaining my intentions now because I would rather have flow trap discuss his/her gameplay or opinions than post joke reactions.

Early on as far as D1 goes but was trying to obtain information from flow trap rather than some reactions that scum may have been fine with and just ridden along, as scumfloo surely wouldn't have been as worried about putting in the effort in, especially to try and divert the game towards a productive direction.

What about safebet222?

Chasing up flow trap so as to get the full answer from him, something far more likely to come from town while scum would be less inclined to push for the full answer.

Right, as I explained I said it was "partially serious" to avoid seeming scummy / too random.

The concern of coming across scummy and feeling the need to explain why they expressed themselves in a certain way is a bit sus but i can see the reason as to why they are saying it, so NAI for me here.

I see other players passing esotericzoomer for questioning the flow trap wagon for a difference in gameplay philosophy. The problem is he was too insistent in his complaint even though flow trap was at zero chance to actually die. There was no harm in the wagon while he yelled that there was no gain. That makes me think EZ was insincere. Besides he has no reads besides the convenient safebet scumread needed to vote him even though he talks Mafia theory and debates the little town/scumtells other people have pointed out. Scumlean on esotericzoomer currently.

This read met with what was going on at the time, and felt a natural branch out from the previous focus he had put on flow trap up to this point.

possible motives for this:
- wild reaction test (most rational motive)
- attention seeking
- perplex other players
- avoid scumreads for posting weird stuff (like the Mafia joke claim) and then not posting weird stuff
- concern over lolhammer (talked about it at the beginning of the game, very disapprovingly)

Again trying to break down reads understand possible reasons for posts and at the very least providing perspectives for townies to view from.

Your comments about 365 assume that Enchant and Fredrick are scumpartners. Let's say that Fredrick is town, however, regardless of Enchant's alignment. Then he would just be asking you to read Enchant in a different way that is more logically sound, which is perfectly normal for town to do. I haven't read/thought enough about if it is likely that Enchant and Fredrick are partners.

You said in 228 that you didn't want to give Enchant the benefit of the doubt because you "don't want to get burned again." If I'm reading that as it appears, you don't want to think about Enchant with the proper assumptions because you don't want to be voted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm reading through your ISO and feel like half of your posts are interactions with flow trap. What's your current read on flow trap?

Again coming across very townie, pushing players looking for reads trying to view things from different perspectives to analyse things from all angles rather than just focusing on one view and holding it and pushing it without looking at the alternatives.

To explain more, just because Enchant is unpredictable. I don't want to risk any hammer while this conversation between quiet and Enchant is still ongoing

At the end of D1 he unvoted enchant to ensure the day didnt end too quickly so that the conversation could continue something i think is only in the interests of town, it could have been so much easier for him to just leave his vote on there, but instead he unvotes.

If he's that desperate, yes.

Enchant appears to have attempted gamethrow in frustrated desperation, that's the important takeaway. Could be legitimate town desperation or a scum Hail Mary.

Again viewing things from both sides, short and simple but at the very least not cancelling any options out completely.

1005 came across from a towns perspective as well i could see where he was coming from even if i didnt agree with all the points he made. Town aren't all suppose to agree with the same points as we are looking at things from different perspectives assuming everyone but ourselves is possible mafia.

Reasons to kill esotericzoomer:

Widely townread?

esotericzoomer was more of a "passive townread," in that he was away from scrutiny in the final leg of Day 1. He had his share of scummy lines to justify a vote. Prism or myself would be a better choice for this reason.

Scumreads

His other scumread was Fredrick. There are other players who scumread Fredrick, so killing EZ would be a poor choice. Fredrick is somewhat vindicated by Enchant's town flip. Plus, EZ's 100% confidence about scumreading Enchant would have blocked his chances of pushing a further scumread.

I think there are two plausible reasons then. The two reasons I mentioned above would not be the main reasons to kill, but could be secondary ones.
- Probable power role. I have not read enough into EZ's posts to see where this is implied though.
- Avoid Doctor/Jailkeeper. This is a hybrid reason which combines "widely townread" and/or "scumreads."

Expressed thoughts on the D1 NK something that he didnt have to do, but felt the need to review to express more reads and delve deeper into the ties between players, something that some other players at the time were not willing to do.

1108 pushing sal based of the image conscious nature they presented of themselves.

Is being dismissive really towny or NAI? There's a line between "the scumreads on me don't matter, I'll just hunt for scum" versus "the people who scumread me are stupid." I'm seeing the latter from Salsabil Faria.

I took a negative tone because I knew she was more prone to being baited into a fight as you call it, I wouldn't do the same to a calmer player who reasons it out rather than yelling with GIFs and emojis. Sal is baiting me too into a fight, either intentionally or not, by responding to a harsh and serious accusation flippantly. This only makes me want to pressure her further, which I did, consciously accepting the risk of growing bitterness. Is a dismissive and flippant attitude appropriate anymore?

I can see the logic in the reasoning behind their push on the origin from Sals reaction, while Sal had appeared townie day 1, I can see why with several of Sals posts which showed signs of concern about being scum read to be suspicious so I think this route of enquiry makes logical sense.

1202 He provides a full breakdown of Sals posts with other players looking at it from her perspective as well as from the outside rather than just attacking for his opinion upon what she has said. and at the very end of his post its not just ending the situation there say with a vote, he leaves it open for more room for discussion so that the situation can develop and more reads can progress.

Explain your reads and don't respond with an "I don't care"

Townie reaction that I can resonate with, frustration from being palmed off.

1223 1225 while reviewing quiets slot, not only does floo provide a breakdown of posts of quiets with descriptions of their thoughts on them, he also breaks down safebets posts from before they switched out to try and gain a more in-depth read on the slot, something that i dont see scum bothering to do, it just strikes me as something townie.

1259 expands on his reads of quiet providing more reads and information also doubting himself at the start of the post opening himself up for people to respond and challenge his read of their slot, not being close minded that his read is final and having an open mind ready for change is another aspect that makes me feel very townie with his slot.

1317 1318 his posts here seem methodical and thought out coming across to me as if trying to solve the puzzle, trying to have open discussion with prism going through post by post on his thoughts about the posts and interactions between him and sal on their reasoning for scumreading him.

1548 His final reads on D2, while I may not agree with all of it I can understand his rational behind why he thinks that way and it doesn't come across like his is trying to push a point that has some agenda behind it, more that they are his opinions.

Haven't got the time or mental ability at this time to process 1814 but will read through it again tomorrow when I am more awake.



Overall I get a better townie feeling from him than I did from most players this whole game this is not to say that i am sure he is town it is more of a read but from assessing his posts that is how i see it. Flow trap like most have mentioned is a Chaos God and was very hectic with his style, although I feel on this final day specifically, the attitude behind his posts comes across more genuine than it did on previous days, not to say that's necessarily townie indicative but that I feel he is putting more effort or at least plans to, I have yet to read through his big posts but plan on putting time into re-reads his slot over the weekend and will share my thoughts then.

[Spartan117]

@spartian, hope things go better for you. I’ll see if I can give a summery of the things I’m most interested in hearing from you about

Thank you, going to bed now, I need to wake up in 4-5hours for work aha

[Spartan117]

@spartian, this post def. helped me understand your perspective on floo a lot better. I think we agree on the sentiment analysis side; floo's posts (contentwise), with the exception of their posts today (which oh god, take a look at when you wake up, are very much NOT the floo i've come to know and love and possibly want to eliminate from this town) come across as considered, genuine, game solving, and high effort.

Yes I agree I found the way they acted day 1 very townie day 2 looked decent too and i had felt happy with how i had sorted them, not too sure by their activity today tbh they havent really fought their own corner for themselves let alone try and continue any scumhunting I felt the reflection on the lynch and nk flips was minimal too, it seems like we are in a prism v floo world like has been mentioned so from my pov I think there are only 3 scum teams that make sense?
flow trap/floo
prism/quiet
flow trap/prism

I guess it could also be possible for a quiet/floo scum team but im not so sure about that one.

I really, really liked floo day1. I was against eliminating floo yesterday, for basically the same reason you have pulled out in that review of their play; their posts throughout the game give almost every appearance of being from someone who wanted to solve the game, and I was really hoping I'd see something today to help support that feeling.

my perspective from the end of yesterday was as follows, i had strongly scumread fredrick for his lack of play d1 and with that not changing d2 i felt confident on that read, and my position there, because of the enchant situation d1 my vote didnt result in anything d1 and i didnt want people to gang up on floo d2 someone who like i explained i town read because of how i felt from the perspectives they gave, and then end up with him lynched and if he flipped town and i had been on the fredrick wagon it would seem like i was just trying to push lightly under the radar.
So for both; wanting to see the flip of my main scum read and not let another slot that i read as town get voted off i made it clear i didnt want him to get killed d2, looking back with the flips with fredrick flipping town obviously its a shame and tbh to me its quite annoying and frustrating as I felt like my reads were justified but if we had lynched floo d2 and had fredrick d3 I don't know if i would have been able to do anything other than look at him, although given floos content d3 its not matched up with what they presented d1/2 so I'm hoping to see more from them.

[Spartan117]

I think what makes flow trap difficult to sort is that he goes from virtually no content to going over the top. I want to know what a flow trap scum looks like, because I suspect they make these same sort of YOLO calls as scum, but the reasoning on the partners was not bad at all nor has their wall analysis.

The bad things about the slot are:
1) Not doing anything at EoD yesterday
2) The one real wall he made was defending floo, and imo it was super lackluster
3) That contradiction on why he voted quiet was bad but also...totally flow trap

Leaning me as town is cool and all but he's got complete freedom here as scum and is absolutely taking advantage of it, which is why I've pushed for him to give more conclusions.

In contrast, even if he's been able to justify them, Spartan's reads have been really,

really

off the mark. I get why he townreads floo in a vacuum now, but me/quiet have given that same level of driving content and good textured analysis. flow trap hasn't given as much, and it's unclear if it's because he's scum, because that's just his personality, or both, but what he has given has been

fine

and the question on flow trap is really just if he's sitting waiting for Spartan to misvote or waiting to push Spartan in 3 way. We've seen flow trap's town game, it does look like this, and he's put in a ton more effort this game.

Like I concur, I think Spartan is scum and it's really up to him to come through and powertown for us here, because flow trap as scum can just sit and either wait for him to misvote, or just bus floo and get Spartan in three way.

I can certainly see both you and quiet as town here, just because i read floo strongly as town doesnt mean that, this was a contributing factor to how i read you and quiet yesterday. my problem is d2 i had more of a sus on most people looking at everyone with squinted eyes, now d3 i can see floos posts have been lackluster and far less, with no real pushes. and see both you quiet and flow trap as all looking town, i guess i would say that with how content rich and influential you and quiet have been you both seem the strongest towns. and from my pov that would mean a flow trap floo scum team, where seeing how quiet reads me vs flow trap, he probably feels confident he can get a vote on me from quiet tomorrow I was pretty sure that fredrick was going to flip red so when he didnt I kinda feel I need to rethink everyone's positions which has lead me to this. I don't think ive ever made it this far in mafia scum let alone to d4 so im finding it a different experience as far as what i have experienced so far in mafia.

[Spartan117]

@spartian what did you think about the second half of that post, which goes into why I ultimately fall on the prism town, floo scum side?

Are you relatively sold on a flooScum world at this point? Or are you still deciding between the two?

Assume that floo flips scum, and Prism gets shot tonight as conftown. Final 3 are {quiet, spartian, flow}. From the above, you would be voting flow, as you think a flow trap/floo world is more likely than a quiet/floo world?

Sorry for the direct questions, I'm just trying to lock down where your reads are at.

No please dont apologise, I appreciate the direct questions it makes it easer to answer, I wouldn't say sold on flooscum but can see more merit for it at this point based clearly upon what each of them are presenting.

between you and flow, I have felt uneasy with flow trap all game since d1, although i think that might have been more playing style but their reluctance to provide their reads however simple early on did stand out to me, but i can understand why town flow trap might do that. I definitly felt better about your slot from yourself and safebet d1 as appose to flow trap and d2 i dont think flow trap really did too much to make me feel much better about the slot, my concern about your slot was more of you are a strong town looking mafia who is pulling the strings. as far as scum partnership goes, i think it looks much more likely of a floo/flow trap partnership than a floo/quiet one. so to answer your question i think i would be leaning towards flow trap but thats not to say thats a guarentee, i would still want to do more evaluation on your slots.

[Spartan117]

I want to be clear; I am not trying to set you two against each other in any way. If you say you would vote me, that's fine.

I won't ever be voting outside of prism/floo today, and am pretty much locked on floo at this point, given that floo really hasn't showed a lot of...desperate effort that I would expect out of a town about to lose the game, and given that I already was scumleaning them before the day started, and especially given that I TR the hell out of Prism.

So basically, unless you find a prism+quiet team as high frequency (in which case tell me, because I think I can give some good cases for why that is not the case here), if Prism is scum, I've already lost the game. This means we kinda have to start discussing tmmrw, and ideally I'd like to do that with more voices around.

Yeah thats fine, I feel like at this point with what we have infront of us right now with everyones reads on each others, i feel if floo is town we have already lost, and perhaps its a deflated scumfloo that has given up at this point? (or just trying to give us minimal to no info to influencing sorting their partner as they know they cant end the day sooner themselves idk) i dont know I understand if they are busy i can fully resonate with that, and look forward to any response to the content that is here that they might have. It will always be useful.

[Spartan117]

Are you sold on prism town?
In a world where it's {quiet, spartan, flow trap}, how are you feeling?

I almost never locktown, but I'm still 90% sure it's floo over prism atm

I'm definitely leaning Spartan who is a SR over you who is a NR

correct me if i have misunderstood this, but why do you have a null read on quiet? is that just a null read as appose to me or a null read in general?

[Spartan117]

While I'm thinking about it, Spartan, you're experienced enough to meta. Review my scumgames. Pull a towngame that isn't Mini Normal 2181 where I hated the table. Extremely stark difference.

It's Elo, you can spare the hour.

Spartan, do this

Spartan, I haven't forgotten this

At this point in the game and with the position of everyones reads on prism, i dont feel there is any need to spend a long time going through other games looking at meta, the time i spend on here i feel would be more productive looking at yourself and quiet for some WhatIf analysis.

[Spartan117]

Are you sold on prism town?
In a world where it's {quiet, spartan, flow trap}, how are you feeling?

I almost never locktown, but I'm still 90% sure it's floo over prism atm

I'm definitely leaning Spartan who is a SR over you who is a NR

correct me if i have misunderstood this, but why do you have a null read on quiet? is that just a null read as appose to me or a null read in general?

Latter

I still haven't forgotten what Prism asked you

Please see above, im not avoiding doing it, im just choosing not to do it.

[Spartan117]

Idk I feel like a Spartan/floo team could have targeted Flow Trap for a miselim today after killing you.
That seems like the best play. The game was set up for that. Get one of fairy, you, or me to vote them. It’s plausible.

Well, I threw a wrench in that plan by turning it up a notch

You seem very confident about that, why is that so?

[Spartan117]

For Spartan, you're saying now that you can see and quiet as town now, even over floo. I've said a lot about why I think this is the case and quiet has gone in some depth too.

Can you explain what's made you lean back the other way towards townreading me? I ask because I've said that I've done the same thing w/r/t quality of analysis and such, but that's different than you working through it. Have you reread my posts at all-what did you think?

On a smaller note, can you elaborate on the two teams you're eliminating with me/flow trap and floo/quiet? I don't think you're wrong, but I'm really curious as to why me/flow trap isn't viable to you while me/quiet is.

My town read on floo was not based off any read on you or quiet and im not sure as to why you keep insinuating that, saying that its somehow unfair that i townread him but didnt you because you both did similar things doesnt make everything the same, in my eyes at the time you did and didnt do things that lead me to read you the way i did, and he did and didnt do things which lead me to read him the way i did, also like i have explained my expression on my high town read on him had other aims in pushing through the voting of my highest scum read as, i did town read floo from what he did and he was looking to be the day vote while my scum target was getting off scott free. while yourself and quiet were not in the hot seat of potentially being day lynched d2, so comparing my expression for my town read on him with you and quiet and in the way i expressed it doesnt correlate, additionally my reads from at that time were with the player sample we have, since then we have a much reduced player sample with the flips we have seen so my thoughts at that time of susing most people somewhat. Having strict worries about you and quiet being lamist and controlling the town with how well you both presented yourself was not my exclusive scum read it was more of if you are scum why would you be scum while i also looked at if you was town what shows that you would be town and i pushed certain slots like for example my push on quiet as i was concerned about their lack of reads and if they was just a spectator who seemed very townie but didnt actually bring a lot to the table. Clearly seeing from their D3 play that simply was not the case they have provided many reads and lots of game analysis that has dramatically changed my view of them and with you also in the same way, i like how flow trap has been d3 in comparison to their d1 and d2 performance, but with the game looking like from my pov of a flowtrap/floo scum team then it appears to me that they are trying to up their game for a final d3/4 push to close out of d4. flow trap please tell me why you are town and i am scum?

[Spartan117]

Oh, so I can SR you for it then

Go ahead buddy, im not quite sure what refusing to read someones who we have a pretty much universal read on's meta from a different game indicated scumminess in anyway, but i honestly don't think i am bothered on you scum reading me what so ever.

[Spartan117]

But @spartan, understanding your progression at this point is pretty essential. Kinda in addition to what Prism just asked, I would also love to know like, besides the unease that our chaos god inspires, if there are some specific thing you can point to in my play or in flow traps play that make you feel strongly one way or the other that we can talk over a bit now.

I think for me ive got a solid enough reason on you to trust you over flow trap but will be doing a read through of you again before the deadline just to skim over stuff and affirm that i am happy with my read, i will be doing more of a proper read through of flow traps content assessing their interactions with others and seeing what that presents i am aiming to have that done before the deadline, which i believe we still have another couple day if im correct?

[Spartan117]

The fairy kill incentive happens so much more when flow trap is scum.

D1 NK was EZ someone who i was scum reading at the time
D2 NK was fairy someone who i was town leaning at that time

What reasoning would i have for the nk on these two occasions?

[Spartan117]

Prodge

VOTE: floo

[Spartan117]

I dunno, i mean i was literally trying to look scummy after the prism vote with it having to be one of them, a risk at voting a slightly scummy slot over a guaranteed scum out of the two would be a weird move but yeah anyway gg guys was great fun