Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[Prism]

Yo, not a dirty flaker, late here and will read through tomorrow.

[Prism]

flow trap, what was your thought process with this sequence?

Hi

Hey everyone...

VOTE: clarkbar

You just made me think about breaking my diet with candy.

VOTE: floo

Shortest username

[Prism]

VOTE: flow trap

This is at least a partially serious vote. Don't want to discuss why right now.

So how can you have a serious vote of 3 people haven't even checked in?

This is a really bizarre angle. Why does having an individual read/vote depend on others having posted?

[Prism]

I'm curious as to why you only placed an RVS vote after seeing someone else do the same.

[Prism]

Lets apply a bit more pressure

VOTE: flow trap

I'm not really a fan of openly declaring a vote a pressure vote. Even a naked vote is better.

[Prism]

I don't really get why there's a question mark there. I'm asking about what you were thinking during your first two votes. "Because I was pretending to be new" is a deeper purpose in contrast to the "Nothing" you originally gave.

Looking at page 4 and the posts around here you seem to be annoyed by the votes on you. Looking at your comment about being an experienced player, you might need to recenter to first principles. Being dismissive of questions doesn't really help as either alignment. It's better to be straightforward and eliminate the guesswork.

[Prism]

VOTE: safebet222

Random Fact about Iceland: Iceland has gone to war 3 times over cod from 1958 to 1976.

See... Told you no one would hammer.

UNVOTE: flow trap

Where's your motivation to do that as town? There's no positives from dancing around flow traps wagon like this.

Reactions... Gotta have reactions to start getting somewhere.

So if your motivation for voting was to get reactions, what was your motivation in unvoting? You had a vote up for 18 minutes, with only 2 non-flow trap players posting. It's also just bizarre to assert that you were "making a point" but immediately describe a motivation that doesn't make a point when asked why you voted.

[Prism]

I'm actually not inclined to give this slot time to recenter.

Can we not kill the experienced player?

VOTE: safebet222

Random Fact about Iceland: Iceland has gone to war 3 times over cod from 1958 to 1976.

See... Told you no one would hammer.

UNVOTE: flow trap

I was tempted to

I strongly doubt the third post in light of the first.

[Prism]

I disagree with safebet and Spartan both on esoteric. Reaction is pretty natural to seeing someone immediately put at E-1 regardless of what Safe flips. The fact they're continuing to sound the alarm into the present page suggests it is legitimate.

[Prism]

I feel like there is 1 scum between Flow trap Vs Sal.
I don't see it as Scum Vs Scum, and it just doesn't feel like Town Vs Town to me.

Other than that my main scum reads are EZ who I feel is being disingenuous in relation to that early waggon and has felt fake in some of their posts, and Fredrick who has been lurking and still yet to provide any meaningful content, could be typical scum trying to stay under the radar while still seeming active.

Can you be more specific as to what makes this feel like not town v. town to you? I don't like flow individually but that conversation as a whole seems plausibly TvT to me. It also looks like you don't have a specific one in mind, as neither are your top scumreads.

[Prism]

My eyes kind of glazed over on the last few pages. I don't really have a read on floo but their early vote was good despite the criticism it got. Salsabil/Enchant are both gut townleans.

Sorry for flooding the thread a bit, should be responding more contemporaneously/measured in the future. Probably going to vote flow but I want to chew on it for a bit.

Last thing I'll do before I head out is talk a bit about myself as a player and some theory.

Spoiler: About me

What's your experience with mafia?
Why do you like to play mafia in general and forum mafia specifically?

I've been playing pretty competitively for over 10 years now. I'm primarily a chat mafia player but over the last few years have taken more of a liking to forum style. Feel free to draw on my experience at any time, but know that I am far from perfect.

I like to play mafia mainly for the challenges it presents in coordination, communication, and working together. I find overcoming these as town and setting each other up to succeed the most interesting part of the game. I'm also very, very competitive for its own sake-my biggest downside as town is probably the degree of obsessiveness I can take on, which tends to overwhelm or demand too much of the other players. I do my best to keep this reined in, but I do tend to be a bit demanding in terms of the effort I expect from others. I'm also a very patient player, in the sense that it is normal to really take my time before voting, working through the game across multiple days and multiple readthroughs. I do have my impulsive moments, though, when I've been playing it slow a bit too long.

I outright do not enjoy the scum alignment but am more talented in that sense-I'm good at running interference and setting town up to implode. That said, I generally find it hard to engage with the game and treat it like a job rather than a game. I tend to publicly position very aggressively, but this is usually only for appearances and I'm just waiting on town to wreck themselves.

I'm not sure if I have any general tips for working with me-I'd just say be patient with me if I'm a bit slow working through things, and to directly tell me that I'm overwhelming the game if I get too obsessive. People like to appoint me town unilateral leader. I don't like that, and it generally leads to town losses. I'm a very easy read for anyone that pays attention. Finally, I don't have a pronoun preference-use whatever you like.

Normally I don't like to talk theory but since this is a newbie I think it's appropriate to give general advice. I want to weigh in on the "Scum don't want attention" bit. Getting away from safebet's vote specifically, while you can usually get away with this in a game filled with weaker or newer players, I would really caution leaning on this reasoning. We might be able to get away with it this game, but it's a timebomb that will get you absolutely rolled in a table of stronger players. Even in this game, though we have some lesser posters we don't have any outright lurkers. Even the ones with lower counts-like floo-have had posts that take initiative. Treat players as individuals, gauge what you think THEY are capable of as scum rather than relying on something overly general.

[Prism]

Spartan, re: 339 I agree that these interactions are good for Salsa and questionable at best from flow. I think there's a big difference between that and the interaction being necessarily TvS, though. At this point with flow trap I don't really think I'd be surprised if he flipped either way.

VOTE: Frederick

Concur that the vote hop wasn't great. Safebet's posting the last few pages was okay.

floo's explanations have been like,

fine

. I want to townread the slot but can't really say they've done anything strongly AI.

[Prism]

I really hate to be blunt but it's better I do it now than later.

flow trap, you need to put your ego aside this game. It's getting in the way of you being effective and are making you elim bait.

You've taken the exact same dismissive attitude to players repeatedly throughout the game. Your explanations for why range from lackluster to promises of galaxy brain plans. Stating that you're not vulnerable to bias due to experience misses the entire point of bias.

I support you pressuring for a read but I don't support you continuing to be evasive/dismissive of concerns and questions under the guise of big brain. It forces me to guess whether you're being egotistical, malicious, or both.

[Prism]

Esoteric, do you have any reads besides safebet?

[Prism]

I'm not voting esoteric today.

[Prism]

I think Enchant came off a lot better reading realtime-you (Esoteric) seem to be reading in ISO. I wouldn't call him town but a lot of the filler was either relevant or pretty natural posting, ex. joking about lolhammers after expressing caution about them.

I'm really curious about this:

Yes. I said exactly that, not "They probably not maf both, but one of them surely there".

If I'm reading this right and the language barrier isn't fucking this up, Enchant pulls a random "one of them is scum" situation out of his ass, very much disapprove.
-0.5

I called a similar issue out with Spartan in 311 and 421. When asked why it's TvS, he gave more resaoning as to why Salsabil individually was town and flow individually was scum rather than they were diametrically opposed. I don't think you touch on this in your wall. Spartan isn't a bad alternative right now.

[Prism]

I really don't like 459 from safebet. This comes right off the heels of esoteric's great wall of reads but the thinking doesn't really add up to me.

The treatment of SEs is wildly inconsistent. The townlean on me for my content is qualified by my SE status, but Spartan does not get the same treatment. He scolds Frederick and sees him as playing below what he's capable of but the result is....null.

What changed to you about flow trap, safebet? You didn't really take issue with flow trap's reaction at the time. 129 has you looking at esoteric and Spartan. I'm concerned because you've spent a ton of time disagreeing with esoteric's theory but flow_trap got a pass until the consensus was against them.

flow trap is still being themselves but they've noticeably gotten more comfortable in their own skin and pressed forward with trying to solve. The pairing chart was also so out of left field at a time when they had more important things to worry about as scum.

[Prism]

My voting preference is something like Frederick/safebet->Enchant/Spartan->floo->Salsabil->flow trap->Esoteric.

[Prism]

I've got no pronoun preference, by the way. Use whatever you like.

[Prism]

I will elaborate on this post at a later date.

[Prism]

Frederick, what is your current thinking on safebet?

I'm skeptical of your voteswitch to floo. You seemed to have a reason you placed some belief in on safebet. For floo, it looks like your vote was prompted by discussion around the fear of appearing scummy comment. It's really rare to see someone admit to insecurity in perception early in RVS-this is exactly what scum is trying to avoid displaying-and I read it the complete opposite way as +town. I can get this from a beginner but as someone who's been around the block a few times, does your experience not match mine?

[Prism]

I'm a big fan of realtime interactions, which in my experience are a lot harder for scum to fake. I'll be around for awhile. If anyone wants to talk to me about a read of mine or yours, let me know.

[Prism]

What you think about Salsa?

I gut townread posts like 126 and agreed with her side of things more with flow_trap. Being right unfortunately doesn't make her town but I don't want to vote her so far. Posts asking about reasoning for pushing safebet pinged town to me given that she had just outed a TR on safebet shortly before.

[Prism]

Going through your ISO Enchant it's not clear to me what your thoughts are on her. You've spent a lot of time responding to her interrogations regarding terminology/which ones you should know.

Where are you at on her?

Has anything changed since 395 where you didn't have any scumreads, just the initial ping on flow? I'm curious about Frederick/safebet.

[Prism]

I feel like there is 1 scum between Flow trap Vs Sal.
I don't see it as Scum Vs Scum, and it just doesn't feel like Town Vs Town to me.

I'm town for sure.

What was the point of this post?

Are you asking me?

Yes.

So, uh, was that it for the night or is there more on the way?

[Prism]

I mean they do have 7 days

Is there a reason you're trying to alleviate the pressure I'm applying?

If you think it's a bad push, explain why. Saying this just gets in the way for 0 reason.

[Prism]

I am actually null on safebet222.

Okay, what shifted?

For the second paragraph I'm saying that from my experience scum generally doesn't openly admit to being insecure about how they're perceived, which was the issue you quoted before voting floo.

[Prism]

So Fred... What do you think of the reactions so far? Do you still think I am deserving of your vote?

You are worthy of my vote. Hence, my vote is on you.

I don't think I can simplify the second paragraph further.

[Prism]

Actually I'll try directly quoting

Found this sus to even insinuate it is somewhat serious a vote this early on with such little discussion, unless ofc this is to obtain a reaction and read responses.

Right, as I explained I said it was "partially serious" to avoid seeming scummy / too random.

I probably ask something nonsense, but really want.

Why you think placing votes suspicious? Do you really care how suspicious are you?

Of course explaining votes is good, but doing that and claiming you did that just to don't seem suspicious for that is really something strange.

Town supposed to push suspicious people, you know.

I second that. Not your vote but your explanation is suspicious : "

to avoid seeming scummy"

I third that.

I am saying I directly disagree with this, particularly Salsabil's reasoning here. I think this is a natural thought for relative beginners. I am wondering why someone who has been around the block more often agrees with this.

At this level I don't see any scum openly admit to being insecure about their appearance with 0 prompting, because scum

fear being perceived as selfconcious

[Prism]

I feel like you're missing the point of my questioning on safebet, I'm asking about 191's stance on safebet and how that has changed over time. You seem to be saying you were null at the time of 191, is that accurate?

[Prism]

Again it puzzles me as to why you're diffusing questions and answering for him. I'm well aware of other motives. It is my job, and yours, to trace his thought process and figure out how legitimate those are. 499 is asking to elaborate on why he voted if my reading-that he didn't actually suspect safebet-is correct.

All you have to do is wait and see if his answers line up to you. You're shooting us both in the foot right now, arguably all 3 of us.

[Prism]

Like if you outright think he's town and want to talk about it, that's a productive conversation.

Shutting down my questions to Frederick and suggesting answers instead of just letting him respond is not productive.

[Prism]

Yeah, I'm sure we both learned a lot more about Frederick from your posting than we would have talking to him.

My patience for the night is spent and this is a waste of time given that you're not even scummy, just getting in the way for its own sake. I'll cede the floor to others for now.

[Prism]

The last I'll say on it is your last sentence of 505 is exactly the value in waiting. Figure out the rest for yourself, I'm not going to continue clogging up the thread with this.

[Prism]

Don't have time to really read today, prefer the Spartan vote to Enchant one. I'm probably not going to get more out of Frederick, safebet was top scumread but will wait on replacement. Might swap vote tomorrow, might keep it.

[Prism]

Going to have to be satisfied with phone posting. I don't know if you saw the post where I said I didn't have time tonight, but if that was intentional I'll rise to the challenge regardless.

Didn't read safebet/the E-1 stuff before voting?

[Prism]

Sure, I didn't like the safebet vote as it felt reactionary to the E-1 as an easy target. Your content after that was virtually zero and even though I've scumread safebet more I wanted more out of you. If your vote on safebet was really random that's kind of ?_? to work with.

[Prism]

VOTE: Prism

Your vote below has given me nothing to respond to. To elaborate, I don't even know why you are scum reading me and, hence, do not have a basis to say that you do not have a reasonable suspicion on me.

Going to have to do more than naked vote if you want this to gain traction.

[Prism]

Nah, let's do it now. If you don't want it to gain traction, who do you actually want to see flipped?

If the vote was for my attention you had me eagerly awaiting dialogue regardless. Puzzling.

[Prism]

Anything else you'd like to dialogue about?

I felt I had made my stance about not liking the safebet vote/floo tag-a-long clear but maybe your perception differs.

[Prism]

My evaluation of the safebet vote was more of a coin flip first guess, it's naturally scummy but also an easy target to vote if they're town. I didn't at all expect for you to claim it was truly random. I don't really know what to think there. The floo vote I really didn't like on account of you being more experienced (ie. being able to restrain that first instinct about floo's "I didn't want to appear scummy" line)

The vote on me was nice and dramatic but you're not outing reads and claiming to randomly vote on page 26. It's also just bizarre to claim the vote as truly random-you had something you wanted from me in the next post.

This is a tough position to put me in. You're not hardscum at all, mainly by virtue of keeping your cards extremely close. Simultaneously, the better alternative to me is probably safebet and maybe Spartan, the latter of which is a project I was hoping to do tomorrow.

At what point are you planning to really enter the game with your vote and your opinions?

[Prism]

It was nice of you to invite me here and to offer to postpone, but I'm also skeptical that it was an accident given that I gave no indicator that I was around reading, let alone posting.

It might be nitpicky but the fact you instantly responded to me showing up a bit annoyed but took more prompting to engage with the reasoning you asked for is suspect to me. Maybe this is you being nice but you also seem to have already understood a decent part of my vote despite framing the question like my reasoning was unknown?

Like, you chose to A)

randomly

vote me B) immediately followup with a question you kinda already knew the answer to and C) invite me to a dialogue with a very tight window, with every expectation that I wouldn't be here to answer. Fortunately or unfortunately, I'm an obsessive who struggles to stay away.

Need to drive home now, I'll check on what Frederick says but then I'm probably going to bed. I'll get to anything else anyone asked me tomorrow.

[Prism]

Now I'm having an existential crisis over the fact I typed all of that with from a grocery store parking lot.

Goodnight y'all, see you tomorrow.

[Prism]

Don't have time to really read today, prefer the Spartan vote to Enchant one. I'm probably not going to get more out of Frederick, safebet was top scumread but will wait on replacement. Might swap vote tomorrow, might keep it.

Can you explain your read of me compared to Enchant, why am I the better vote? Why do you think I am scum?

Why was Safebet your top scumread? Personally I he is a townread of mine I'm going to have to re-evaluate once he is replaced.

Hey, I'm really sorry I couldn't get to this yesterday.

Enchant and you are both kind of dart throw gut reads. Enchant was pretty comfortable at the start and his thought processes have mostly been fine in my book, the questioning floo in 150 is one example. esoteric was right that he was a bit fillery but in context I think he's just conversing, not really going out of his way. The worst thing he's done to me is put flow trap at E-2....which was fine.

With you I didn't like the explanation for the "I feel like there's at least 1 scum in these two" comment about Salsabil/flow trap. Your explanation seems to just suggest Salsabil town and flow trap scum-and flow trap wasn't even in your top reads and you were voting outside.

Declaring something as likely TvS is one of the few things I ask about immediately as a hard rule. It's not a superb tell, but it's great to force people to justify it immediately regardless. As scum it forces you to justify it rather than chain miselims/let the 1v1 continue without interdiction. As town I need to get you to drill down and pick which one is scum, or realize neither have to be, instead of leaning on one of the easiest bad assumptions to make in the game. You were my third vote choice so you'd be more of a compromise than my first choice, if that's what you're worried about.

For safebet, I know he's been replaced and will get to that in a bit, but I didn't like the clashing motivations he had early on and the read wall he gave. (Post links are my explanations). I never got explanations from him on any of these and now I never will.

[Prism]

His post 136 gives me townie vibes about him first, very detailed about what he thinks and why he thinks; His interaction with me in post 266 indicates that he was trying to understand my point of view; His interaction with you also indicates that he was trying to understand you better; Post 339 is constructive, also very detailed, indicates that he takes our 1v1 conversation seriously (though I think you're a town most probably, despite being a pain in the *** ); His conversation with

Fredrick A Campbell

gives me town vibes too, I agree with post 359 for this matter; His interaction with

esotericzoomer

(specially, post 547 and 560) gives me some new perspective to think but I still townread

esotericzoomer

at the moment.

Rereading 136 I agree and think this post was better than I gave it credit for in my early readthroughs. I'd caution townreading 339 in that this came more from me grilling him on it than organically.

I actually concur on 547/560 being a lot better than I gave credit for at first glance.

I went into this with the intention of kind of taking down the TR but Spartan can actually move up here.

[Prism]

Spartan, I get why you scumread Esoteric at the time of 547/560, but I think esoteric had a point in that he could make jokes about being townread and such while pushing his scumreads simultaneously. You have a point that he should probably fight harder for a top SR before settling for a lower scumread but do you think this is implausible as town?

I kind of have the polar opposite reaction to his early reaction to the E-1 which is unfortunate but I found the wall insanely town. Writing for its own sake isn't town but you can see him actively using the math as a way to put the pieces together, he's not just throwing one liner reactions out. This was at a time when he would naturally have needed to sort as town but was far from getting eliminated as scum.

I guess a good starting point here for working together might be: Why do you think safebet is town?

[Prism]

You are too talkative for quiet person, quiet. Welcome.

About Prism. I want to think he is town for now. There's reasons stated before.
But 10 years of experience is something. So, he can hide well. I will think he is townie, but watch his steps.

In general you're right to be cautious! I'm primarily a chat player, and we tend to have tone down to a science. Just reading and thinking through the game doesn't make me town, either.

That said, I am human like anyone else, and if I'm scum I have to be opportunistic or manipulative at some point.

[Prism]

Suddenly I am very glad that I walked back my Spartan over Enchant vote suggestion before reading page 28 LMAO

VOTE: Enchant

I don't think there's any world in which Esoteric or flow trap flip scum here with this.

[Prism]

For quiet, unfortunately you can't really answer for your predecessor but for why I scumread your slot, the two posts I link to Spartan here explain it:

For safebet, I know he's been replaced and will get to that in a bit, but I didn't like the clashing motivations he had early on and the read wall he gave. (Post links are my explanations). I never got explanations from him on any of these and now I never will.

Did you have any scumreads after rereading? I think the only reads you've outed so far have been townreads one/Salsabil, and I think flow trap, Esoteric, and Spartan are all worth taking a look at.

I get that it's a lot to read in a day, and you will probably have time overnight if you don't get to it today. Welcome, and I'm glad you find me town and that you're also a Kacey Musgraves fan! I'm a big fan of the cover and looped the album for most of 2019. It's still a favorite. I wouldn't really try to answer for your predecessor here; if you're town hopefully I can see it at some point from your own play.

[Prism]

Looks like the post links didn't copy over, here you go:

For safebet, I know he's been replaced and will get to that in a bit, but I didn't like the clashing motivations he had early on and the read wall he gave. (Post links are my explanations). I never got explanations from him on any of these and now I never will.

[Prism]

Flow trap: towny vibes. I can think of some reasons why scum do the “I’m going to make 3 even wagons and see what happens” play, but I think it’s something town does with more frequency. This is pure gut, along with some other interactions I recall liking, but couldn’t quote if you asked. I’ll be looking to make a better read when I go back to the start on my laptop. Flow trap also pings me as experienced, which means I have to determine if I’m able to note AI stuff from them day1 at all.

I agree on this front. What stuck out to me was the comfort to continue behaving erratically/big brain even as he got progressively more and more flak for it. Assuming Enchant is scum, I just also don't think he ever puts that vote down to begin with, let alone bothers to random vote me after Enchant claimed.

Esoteric: I don’t even recall the slot. That’s not great on my end, I should probably remember at least something about every slot. Either I was just very distracted during my first casual read, or they’re lurky. Without going back, that leans scum to me, but that’s by far my worst impression.

I thought the reaction to safebet's vote was decently town but it was the read wall that really prompted me to foreclose any chance of voting the slot, I don't know if you've seen it. I might scope out an Esoteric scumgame to make sure he hasn't done it before but even at very advanced levels of play, that level of effort and commitment to sorting is +town. I can see scum gimmicking it but reading the wall just made that unlikely to me. You can noticeably see his thoughts progress as he goes. The math obviously doesn't work out cleanly, but the entire point was to force himself to sort and make decisions/commitments, and I think the shines through.

I also just don't ever see a reason to vote this slot w/ Enchant scum, 0 reason to bus here when Frederick is still under pressure and I'm scumreading your slot which was a top SR for him.

Spartan: I think my take on Spartan is probably colored by all the other takes I’ve seen about Spartan. Without looking back, null. Nothing pinged me so hard I took note of it, I remember being interested in some of their back and forths, I just don’t feel like I know enough to give a good impression rn.

I get that. I've just posted a lot about him, I don't really agree with his reads at all and am still pretty wary. His reasoning has gotten better. I think he makes a decent Enchant partner given the pushes elsewhere.

[Prism]

I'm trying to get away from meta-ing, but I'll probably check the game you linked out at some point if it comes to it.

What is the most productive way for me to engage as town? This game has, like, three players whose style I’m already interested in adopting bits and pieces of. The readability (as in legibility) of this game is great, in a way that my posts just...are not. I’m too rambly.

So I have a big wall of tips here.

Spoiler: Big wall

There's as many answers to this as there are players! I think wearing your heart on your sleeve and being a bit rambly is a powerful thing, at least as town. I'm generally considered an easy read because of it! If you can effectively emulate that as scum, you'll probably find it a tool for that alignment, too.

The important thing to keep in mind is that while it's important to "show your work", it's also important to keep it accessible. There's a few reasons for this. First, the more accessible and shorter your arguments are, the easier it is for others to understand, engage with, and be persuaded by them. Second, You don't want to shut your teammates out of the game by burying them in volume: If being an easy read on account of my intensity is my strong suit, overwhelming the other players with content is my weak point for sure! Even this game I think I've been less than ideal with not breaking things up into more accessible chunks.

Some people choose to bluff reads for reactions as town, I've never been a fan of this but plenty of players find it quite effective in getting reads. I simply wait until I have something, even if it's small, but the downside is I often rely on other players-like the bluffers!-to get me that clue. Personally, I put a lot of stock in progressions: Individually, each read needs to make sense

for the person to have

, even if I don't think it objectively makes sense. Strung together over the course of an entire game, they should present a natural evolution in how that person is thinking over time: weird, unexplained or questionable jumps are red flags to me. Others put a lot more valuable on their ability to "feel" someone's alignment in a post or when it comes from the heart, and have as much and often more success than I do.

I think an important thing people miss is that mafia is fundamentally a game of judging your fellow players: both their play and their ability. Whether something is possible as scum

depends on the player doing it

. This is really unpleasant to do sometimes, to say someone isn't capable of something as scum, but it's the nature of the game.

Lastly, get comfortable being wrong all the time. Learn to strike a balance with pushing your reads, and choosing to believe in them and vote them, but the hard truth is that even Paragon winners are wrong all the time like clockwork. Work with others with an open mind, always knowing there's a good chance you're wrong, but don't let that fear or that knowledge prevent you from making a call.

You don't have any other option but to guess.

[Prism]

Enchant

I town read this slot

??? Have you read the selfhammer?

[Prism]

Looking at the posts it looks like the most recent you link is the 500s, okay, will read the entire thing before I respond.

[Prism]

I'm going to try to keep out quotewalling here.

I don't like 475 pressuring Safebet, they dont like safebets read post from 459 and states the thinking doesnt add up but doesnt expand any further on it only questioning the vote on flow trap.

I think my safebet arguments were a bit different and more specific than those presented-most pressure was just for the E-1-but I don't think it substantially matters much so I'll leave it. I think this point specifically is worth revisiting because I highlighted two things: First, his treatment of me in comparison to you and Frederick was very questionable. Why is the townread on me qualified by my experience while yours isn't, and why is Frederick is null if he's significantly underperformed?

I touch on this in my tip wall to quiet just now but I put a lot of stock in progressions, and I think progression on flowtrap had a lot of gaps that needed to be filled in, iirc he did not comment on any of the things he was citing as they were happening, only in the conclusion of the read wall.

I concur for the most part on Frederick and appreciate you swapping off Esoteric. I know you spent a lot of time already, but if you're curious I think you should read more of Esoteric's posting around the time of the wall, which it doesn't look like you had time to do.

Let me know if there's any other reads you want to talk about when you finish reading.

[Prism]

Typically I'm at least mildly inconsistent tbh

I think most people are, and despite how fancy my progression evaluation often looks on paper, I have a knack for getting 1/2 scum only to eliminate multiple town and hard defend a scum with better consistency.

Teamwork makes the dream work. Different styles and different angles help dramatically. I do think there are some "wrong" ways of thinking/playing, as you've seen, but my way has its blind spots, whether that becomes apparent this game or not.

[Prism]

Unlikely I can make it today but I'll try to squeeze some time in if I can?

Big fan of the increased content/activity

[Prism]

Currently catching up but I want to echo the above from quiet.

It's worth fighting when you think there's something AI to be found there. I don't think arguing attitude is giving us much of anything anymore.

Salsabil, I appreciate you being willing to recognize that it's unproductive and to take the step back.

For flow trap, while I think my perspective is clear, the last I will say even if you're right about all of your ideas/conceptions/motivations, something is preventing you from communicating and working effectively with several of the other players. If nothing else, figuring out how to work together effectively should be a priority. Being right means nothing if you can't carry it through, and you'd be surprised how often greasing the wheels of communication actually does net good townreads. You want the other town players to work with you rather than around you.

[Prism]

also, I’ll note that flows response to Prisim’s post was more...flow being flow. Little one liners, quick statements. The form culture shock and arrogance as a defense mechanism were both nice touches. I read flow has enjoying themselves, and the response NAI like every other thing they’ve done. Sound like a broken record, I’ll probably not post about that slot any further today.

I thought this was town. I would've hoped he'd taken a moment to really reevaluate, but the fact he just kept on being himself told me the attitude was probably legitimate. Keeping it up in the wake of negative feedback as scum would be a very nuanced approach I wouldn't expect at this level.

[Prism]

Their self-vote openclaim Mafia Goon makes them so suspicious that literally anyone can vote them without looking bad.

This also makes me feel even better about elimming them, as I would think if they were not mafia, this wagon would be over and done with and we'd be in the night faze already. Like in a townEnchant world, mafia has a totally free elim just waiting for a vote.

I don't really like this post in light of the post you're quoting with 823? 823 suggests scum/town alike will both wagon without issue, and so there's no info from an Enchant townflip, while this post is suggesting that scum will instantly jump on if it's a townflip. I both personally disagree with this and think it's inconsistent-mafia needing to vote it is info, even if they don't I think it's info based off of why they justify not doing so. If it's a free elim mafia don't have to vote it, and are actually incentivized to avoid it. Whiteknighting town slots is one of my most common scum tactics and I catch others doing it all the time.

In general I like the effort/teamwork emphasis you've put on the game but I'm worried that scumQuiet is taking the approach of "Spit out every reaction now, worry about implications later." Assuming your partner is Enchant you may not have any other choice.

[Prism]

you're being too paranoid

This sounds scummy tbh

Do you scumread Esoteric overall?

[Prism]

Spartan's 838 is interesting. I think a lot of it is way too generous. I also think Spartan knows that harddefending a partner slot isn't actually as bad as people think. There's some consistency in reads/progression here but I'm skeptical of the casting of a lot of this. Most of it is describing what the town motivation

would be

without a clear reason for why it's town. I think two examples would be:

577 he defends himself making a point about his serious and not serious behaviour and it all being read the same

and

661 The post before the self vote he shares his opinion on Prism and welcomes quiet, not very like someone who wishes to leave the game.

661 is Enchant openly shading me. He might be paranoid town, and I addressed it as such, but there's very clear scum motive here.

The parts he admits to being scummy are kind of just...dropped without much further thought.

I dont like Quiets 697 In the same post he says

"But you weren’t super at risk from my perspective; I thought some of this was pressure"

and then follows it up with

"So uh, basically, I’m probably going to hammer you later today when I catch up"

He goes from in his eyes Enchant not being at risk and seeing some of the votes as pressure to then telling him he is probably going to hammer him, it feels a bit opportunistic in my eyes.

So I'm not the biggest Quiet fan either (alignment wise!) but I think this missed Quiet's point: Quiet was saying at the time of the E-1 vote he wasn't under much risk. Now that he selfvoted and claimed mafia, Quiet was going to hammer him. Two very different points in time.

Saying there's scum on the wagon begs the question of who the scum on the wagon are. It looks like you're skeptical of Quiet and have spent a good chunk of time pushing Esoteric. Right now it looks like you're pushing Frederick, who isn't on the wagon.

[Prism]

Let me know if there's any other reads you want to talk about when you finish reading.

What are your thoughts on Sal? I feel like I need to re-evaluate the slot/give it some more thought, I'm also planning a re read of Safebet/quiets slot.

Being honest, they're dartthrow town but my attention has been elsewhere. Revisiting the slot is probably a tomorrow project.

[Prism]

UNVOTE:

Just hit the reads list from Enchant.

[Prism]

I find their lack of...content or reads or good faith engagement with arguments (as in, the “I can’t respond to you unless there is something specific to respond to” or “I ignored your post about your suspicions on me because that was just your opinion and you can’t argue opinion”) as a fairly polarizing take; they are either very scummy for it,

or very town.

? Can you explain the bolded half for me

[Prism]

scratch that- his entire readslist is convenient.

Unfortunately I have seen far, far too many people try to selfhammer as town and claim to be worthless/to just kill them over the years. Probably half are town. The hit rate is still very good for a 9p game but it's worth doublechecking.

Him claiming mafia as a joke, thinking he was hammered, would definitely be a new one but the level of effort afterwards is worth looking at.

For Enchant, if you're town the correct answer just isn't to selfhammer at all...but if you're not hammered and claimed mafia to troll, well, you kind of dug this hole yourself.

[Prism]

Sorry wrong quote you know the one I meant.

For Enchant, if you're town the correct answer just isn't to selfhammer at all...but if you're not hammered and claimed mafia to troll, well, you kind of dug this hole yourself.

Hey prisim, does that unvote mean we are ever getting away from an elim there? If so, you’re a braver person than I. I smiled a bunch when I saw it though.

None of Salsabil/FaC/Spartan/flow are currently inclined to vote there. This means 2 of me/floo/Enchant are required to vote to finish Enchant off. ie. Yes, me unvoting makes it hard to push through if I don't put it back.

Why'd it make you smile?

[Prism]

UNVOTE:

Just hit the reads list from Enchant.

and?

947, rereading the slot from scratch atm.

[Prism]

I didn't think this about it well, i was somewhat obsessed with getting myself killed and when i was though i'm on E-1, hammered. After i reread posts and noticed i'm not dead and added "Ok i'm mafia" to ensure i will get executed. Yes, i not hammered because Quiet asked that.

This is the sequence. You selfvote. 3 minutes later are these posts, posted within a minute of each other.

Oh sorry, i dind't saw this is on E-1.

I was real mafia goon btw. Outplayed myself.

GG town.

8 minutes later, after esoteric informs you that it was not E-1:

Oh no.

UNVOTE:

Are you saying that you realized it wasn't E-1 at the time of 692?

[Prism]

The timeline I'm getting is this:

1. You see you're at E-1. You decide to die. You selfvote.
2. You realize you're not at E-1. You post the "oh I didn't realize I was E-1" and the mafia claim to hopefully get a hammer.
3. You unvote unprompted after Esoteric
4. You don't revote when Quiet votes you so you can continue to dialogue with him.
5. At some point you decide life is worth living after all and repent

This all happened in about 17 minutes

[Prism]

3. You unvote unprompted after Esoteric says it's not E-1

EBWOP

[Prism]

VOTE: Enchant

If you want to die so badly, I will grant your wish.

[Prism]

I think they're resigned to dying regardless. At some point, you just want to stop talking and curb the damage.

[Prism]

[Prism]

The good news is that I can punish it regardless.

About to start rereading, my instinct on flip was quiet/Spartan with an outside chance my Esoteric read was wrong.

[Prism]

Spartan: Who did you think the scum were on the wagon at the time of 838?

I believe at the time you scumread Esoteric but you were voting Frederick, who was offwagon.

[Prism]

Frederick, it last looks like you were still catching up. Did you ever finish/where are you at?

I'm also wondering what you thought about Enchant, it seemed like you got current near the end w/ responding to Enchant's 869. What did you think about the slot/why were you leaning Salsabil and quiet?

[Prism]

Mild suspicion on Prism, Quiet, & FaC for that NK

VOTE: Quiet

What happened to your scumread on Salsabil?

Reviewing the slot I don't really scumread quiet right now. The EoD positioning and their interactions with me rub me the wrong way but I don't trust my gut/tonereading as a rule.

[Prism]

What were your immediate thoughts on seeing the Enchant flip? Do you have any slots you're currently interested in taking a closer look at? I understand you may not be able commit to something stronger without review.

[Prism]

My immediate thoughts were “should have just townlocked them and moved on, this gives us nothing”.

I don’t think particularly anyone stands out as a paragon of scum for how they interacted with that wagon. It’s basically a policy elim at that point. I couldn’t find a hero fold there, so why should I expect anyone else to have?

I think the NK is our best bet for info, but otherwise my immediate take was, great, day1 part2, electric boogaloo. I’m probably being dismissive and I’m sure that there’s some info to be gained, but right now I’m trying to figure out what two wagons help solve the game most today, and will need to review to see if there’s anyone that benefits from an EZ kill. I retain some townreads I feel good about, and I remember townreading EZ (I hope I did, havnt looked back yet still traveling), so there was a lil disappointment there.


Flow doesn’t get NKed, I never do, Fredrick doesn’t, as we had suspicion from yesterday. Spartian falls into that category, but was less sus than us three. I think salsa gets left alive, not over suspicion, but because I think they’re not the scariest town.

I could see floo getting killed, EZ obviously did and was pretty widely TRed if I recall correctly, Prisim you also do often I think, though you fall into the category of scary as a competent scum threat, and may be left alive for that reason.

I’ll need to review as to why EZ was the choice over floo and you. That is my no review (and possibly fallible memory) reaction. When I’m done traveling I’ll read back over and give stronger reads about my suspicious, but other than a TR on Floo which I wholeheartedly retain, I don’t think there’s any that feel locked for me without looking back.

I’m interested in why the push on Fredrick happened, and why it’s still happening. Trying to decide if it’s a good wagon today. I think I’m inclined to hunt somewhere else, but if other people want to champion that I’ll be very interested.

My difficulty here is players tend to shoot for vague feelings of PRs early on, which makes NK analysis difficult. Even if one player is unlikely to shoot Esoteric for dayplay reasons, their teammate might want to, which compounds the issue further. I constantly have to hound my partners to just shoot the person that will be impossible to get voted. I don't want to get in the way of your own NK analysis but I'm not really inclined to play the same speculatory game over reading into dayplay.

Again I am curious as to what "I think I'm inclined to hunt somewhere else [not Frederick]" means in action. I know this is a first pass.

I concur on the Floo townread even though it's more of a lean. Still like the start even if I wish they'd post more.

[Prism]

At the time yes I was sus of EZ and I had some mild suspicion on Flow trap (generally find them hard to read) who I'm not sure if they was on the Enchants wagon at that exact time but was dancing on or around it. Although I had townread Quiets slot before they subbed in I was also concerned of them being a bit too LAMIST and I had and still have that concern with you too, so I found that whole wagon sus pretty much, I agree what enchant did didn't look very good but it was all too easy for everyone to jump aboard.

What do you think now seeing that slot flip? what do you think of your fellow wagoners? How do you feel their motives compared to your own with that wagon?

I was a bit annoyed given that his timeline was blatantly false and basically threw my hands up and said I'll read if I have to Day 2. I also wondered if I was wrong on Esoteric. Now my instinct is to look at you and Frederick, neither of which were on the wagon. If quiet is scum I'm probably going to have to catch him off of forcing errors or bad pushes over one-off posts and analysis, he's clearly capable of faking. I'd townlean it given that he kept up the activity and analysis through the EoD; I had that as +scum with Enchant but that is now obviously not the case.

I don't like that you spent the Enchant wagon not only whiteknighting but openly saying "scum are on the wagon" without really pushing a specific person, and instead pushing someone off wagon.

The votes on the wagon were Esoteric, me, flow trap, quiet, and Enchant. 2 of these are flipped town, 2 of these are townleans for me. One scum is almost certainly off the wagon, and I don't think both being off is a bad bet at all.

[Prism]

I don't townread Prism. A lot of vote pressure/suspicion would be the best way to get a read out of a player who stays under the radar by just contributing a lot.

This is a bizarre way to dodge giving a read on me. Pressure is one way to get a read on me but you're not weighing in on the flood of content I'm giving you. Casting it as "staying under the radar" is disingenuous.

Stop dodging my content or vote me.

[Prism]

Frederick, esotericzoomer has access to the flip and can see that it flipped town. It's Day 2. You're one of the more experienced players here. It's time to play the game.

VOTE: Frederick

[Prism]

Floo how do you feel about Prism? Would you be willing to join a wagon on them today?

Why am I specified here over Frederick/flow trap/quiet? As far as I can tell you haven't really differentiated between me/quiet and you seem to scumlean flow trap.

[Prism]

You're almost there flow trap, let down the walls of your heart and start sharing the inner thoughts.

Do I worry you?

[Prism]

I suspect that the easiest way to solve this is to just get a scum flip and force the NK. I am not sure Frederick is it, but I am sure the game will be much easier one way or another when he starts playing.

[Prism]

I suspect the mafia is comprised of Spartan11 and flow trap.

VOTE: Spartan11

Awesome, I'm glad to see you take some stances. Can you elaborate on why you feel this way?

[Prism]

If we shoot FaC and they flip town we are in a really bad position

While my vote isn't going to randomly swap, it is malleable and we have a full week. I'm always open to talking about whatever topic you want.

[Prism]

Bottom of 746, don't think he's focused as much on you today other than by reference to yesterday. The votes on you are me and Salsabil.

How about flow trap?

[Prism]

Salsa, you get almost indignant with your posts sometimes when responding to people lobbing suspicion your way. Do you think that’s AI at all?

True, Sal mocked many scumreads/suspicion on her meaninglessly (like with emojis) while not necessarily refuting them.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

I'm finding Enchant town now

Ok, I think I'm going to place Salsa in the Leaning Scum but not open to shoot category

Right now, given what I have read, my guess of the scumteam is Salsabil Faria and quiet with a higher than random chance of being right. Random chance is (1/28). Odds of right to wrong are (1:27).

It's irrationally defensive at best, arrogantly scummy at worst. The underlying thought process in any case is "I'm so towny, how could someone scumread me?"

Joke of the year!! Now I'm arrogant!!!

Yes, you're arrogant.

I second that. Not your vote but your explanation is suspicious : "

to avoid seeming scummy"

Ironically, you're outspokenly image-conscious as seen by the posts in the spoiler.

VOTE: Salsabil Faria for now

This weirdly looks more like picking a fight than a legitimate push. I don't like it, especially when you lump me/Salsabil together previously and then completely ignore my post.

[Prism]

I'm trying to figure out where the narrative of scum!Spartan is coming from, because I just do not see it. Only one scum game to compare to, like, 3+ years ago in an open setup (and I can't even find the gamethread), but given how quiet this thread has been in the last few days, I don't see why scum would be popping in, trying to get things moving again. Like for a game that has 45 pages of content, we've made maybe 3? Since the night?

I don't get the two different standards being applied to myself and Spartan here. I've been trying to flog content out of Frederick, flow trap, yourself, and floo the entire day. Spartan's high effort but the defense of Enchant was deeply questionable, and he's been making vague statements about "scum on the wagon" "feels like TvS" etc. without specifying who they were the entire game.

So I'm jumping on the Salsa wagon today. Other wagons I'd consider: Prism, Floo, because I sure as hell aren't going to be able to sort them by reading them. No interest in a Fred vote today, I think enough people can eliminate that slot if my gut is wrong about that one without me. When I get a moment, I'm going to see if defensive towny vibes are a thing for Salsa generally, or if this is a deviation, because I'm still early enough in my mafia career to enjoy meta.

You had no problem calling me town Day 1. One of the things that most bothered me about your slot was that 793 was spot on. My intuition was that you had the assistance of knowing my alignment. It annoyed me to think that I could be read off of a single post but in this case it's true-in no world do I step in to rein in flow trap there, and my meta establishes this extremely well. I can backlink you later if you want but the only time I did similar as scum was my first game onsite, and I lost for it. Realizing this was unfair and that I needed to set my pride aside was a big part of why I backed off today.

[Prism]

I'm good at running interference and setting town up to implode.

I remembered; this is what is worrying me about Prism's FaC push

VOTE: Prism

I literally have been begging you, and Frederick, to play the game and been very open that my vote is open to change. Where is the interference? I have literally spent the entire day trying to squeeze every bit of content out that I can, the entire reason I answered for Spartan in 1096 was so that we could get a response from Frederick in a reasonable timeframe rather than 2-3 days later...which still did not happen.

The interference I'm running is literally trying to get Frederick to play the game and trying to get you to be more transparent and work with people.

[Prism]

All this said, after 4 days of trying to pressure content out of him, I realize nothing I do will get Frederick to actually play the game of mafia at this point and I have to find ways around it. He's not my first pick for an elimination today.

UNVOTE:

Probably going to vote Spartan or floo. I know quiet will be glad to hear that.

[Prism]

Cool. Do you think I've been running interference today, and if so, where?

[Prism]

Again elaboration would be nice but I'm slowly coming to grips with the fact that the only way I can get people to stop posting vague fears is by getting a scum flip, and at this point I'm down to go floo. Frederick still needs to play the game but if that elimination is wrong we're going to outright lose Day 3.

VOTE: floo

[Prism]

At this point I'm no longer confident that no scum was on the wagon but the difference between floo and flow trap/quiet is that both are paranoid and open about it. That doesn't make them town, but it is plausible as town.

Contrast that to floo:

I have not read enough of Prism, Spartan, or Quiet (safebet) yet to make an informed read.

Literally no reason to not have a read on the 3 most content-filled posters in the game.

I agree that is true but I don't see why he is even somewhat vindicated when he was being scumread before them interactions occurred, Floo how do you feel about Prism? Would you be willing to join a wagon on them today?

I don't townread Prism. A lot of vote pressure/suspicion would be the best way to get a read out of a player who stays under the radar by just contributing a lot. I'm open to voting Prism, but I would prefer voting Salsabil Faria, who stays out of suspicion for the same reason as Prism.

I don't townread Prism. A lot of vote pressure/suspicion would be the best way to get a read out of a player who stays under the radar by just contributing a lot.

This is a bizarre way to dodge giving a read on me. Pressure is one way to get a read on me but you're not weighing in on the flood of content I'm giving you. Casting it as "staying under the radar" is disingenuous.

Stop dodging my content or vote me.

Salsa, you get almost indignant with your posts sometimes when responding to people lobbing suspicion your way. Do you think that’s AI at all?

True, Sal mocked many scumreads/suspicion on her meaninglessly (like with emojis) while not necessarily refuting them.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

I'm finding Enchant town now

Ok, I think I'm going to place Salsa in the Leaning Scum but not open to shoot category

Right now, given what I have read, my guess of the scumteam is Salsabil Faria and quiet with a higher than random chance of being right. Random chance is (1/28). Odds of right to wrong are (1:27).

It's irrationally defensive at best, arrogantly scummy at worst. The underlying thought process in any case is "I'm so towny, how could someone scumread me?"

Joke of the year!! Now I'm arrogant!!!

Yes, you're arrogant.

I second that. Not your vote but your explanation is suspicious : "

to avoid seeming scummy"

Ironically, you're outspokenly image-conscious as seen by the posts in the spoiler.

VOTE: Salsabil Faria for now

1108 Salsabil is being transparently flippant and dismissive of pushes on her. It might be arrogant but it's the opposite of image-conscious and casting it as scummy is questionable

at best.

[Prism]

I feel like you're setting something up

I was setting up to get Frederick to play the game. If you have questions about my motivations in certain posts

you have to ask

.

[Prism]

It's really annoying to have to deal with the vague accusation without you being legitimately willing to dialogue about it. This feeling will stick unless I net us a red flip, and even then you might still say "bussing". There are other ways to handle this than forcing me to do all of the heavy lifting, especially when the quality of my reads are by far the weakest part of my towngame.

[Prism]

I'll be back later, in some sense I should be flattered by the paranoia but I've been spoiled by being a universal TR my last several games and I should probably just take a lap.

[Prism]

I'll visit that post later floo but I want to phrase what I'm saying another, perhaps more kind/generous way.

I get that some players like flow trap/Frederick think keeping things close to your chest is a strength, and I get that multiple players are paranoid of me. On some level I can adapt to this but

my entire strength as a player is helping others avoid thinking incorrectly and to sharpen their own reads, rather than winning the game off the strength of my own

. I work best as an amplifier. The entire point of my day has been to get these thoughts out of players, both to sort them and to utilize their own strengths as players. What makes the "setting up" and vague accusations deeply frustrating is that I'm trying to figure out how to set up certain players to succeed only to get rebuffed/ignored/paranoia voted.

[Prism]

I can't tell if quiet is town or if he's intentionally exploiting my self-perception/knowledge of the type of player I want to be. I hate this game sometimes.

[Prism]

Is being dismissive really towny or NAI? There's a line between "the scumreads on me don't matter, I'll just hunt for scum" versus "the people who scumread me are stupid." I'm seeing the latter from Salsabil Faria.

I took a negative tone because I knew she was more prone to being baited into a fight as you call it, I wouldn't do the same to a calmer player who reasons it out rather than yelling with GIFs and emojis. Sal is baiting me too into a fight, either intentionally or not, by responding to a harsh and serious accusation flippantly. This only makes me want to pressure her further, which I did, consciously accepting the risk of growing bitterness. Is a dismissive and flippant attitude appropriate anymore?

I have to admit I didn't read Spartan/quiet/Prism because I didn't feel like doing it in the pre-hammer days and didn't have time to on the day of my final reads. At least in part I formed reads on other players first because of their lower post volume/length. I take responsibility for my laziness as a negative for the town. I'm still alive though, and can make reads for the rest of the day on the players I didn't read on Day 1.

I think so, but this draws much more from my chat mafia background than my forum one. The line of thinking is generally that someone being town is or will be selfapparent and they don't really have to defend themselves, especially if they feel the argument is a bad one.

It's not a great way to play, but I wouldn't call it scummy especially given how much several of us were annoyed with flow trap's early antics.

I don't follow for the town motivation behind trying to rile up Salsabil/being intentionally abrasive.

Finally, if you didn't read our posts...what is the deal with 1058? (See my response in 1070)

[Prism]

I've always seen being diplomatic as a scum tell

I have very, very bad news for you about me as a player lmao

In general I don't think this tell is the worst-particularly if the person is overdoing it or not taking any real stances-but becoming more diplomatic and communicate effectively with others is literally

my entire purpose for playing the game of mafia.

I don't enjoy the puzzle or solving aspect at all.

[Prism]

I can't tell if quiet is town or if he's intentionally exploiting my self-perception/knowledge of the type of player I want to be. I hate this game sometimes.

Eh, maybe try and judge my other read on Flow Chart the Chaos God vs. try to search in my read of you.

Easier to determine if I'm being genuine or exploitative when directed at someone else.

Besides calling it out the first time (which I am rather proud about, good read past quiet), noticing it or pressing further on it now is probably NAI, as you've made it clear from your response that it was a good read/is how you want to play.

I'm just havin a good time, makin nicknames for my town slots, building up the energy to try and scumhunt in this most towny of games. I think I'm starting to come to the frustrating reality that if Fred isn't scum like I'm scared about, then someone that gives me townvibes is scum, which means I need to hunt better. Mafia hard. Still feel good about you and Flow though.

The bolded is funny because it's the opposite for me. Historically, my best reads come from detecting someone's positioning around me being off. That said, while in some worlds I want you to be scum just giving analysis as it comes to you...I don't think this is the case and don't really scumread you.

[Prism]

Eh, maybe it is in some cases, but specifically here past-quiet was thinking about how they were trying to build town cohesion, setting in to try and get two players to resolve differences to move the game forward. This is substantially different from being agreeable, or conflict-adverse, which is a scum tell. In fact, it's putting yourself into the spotlight, and possibly into conflict, when what seems to me to be the +EV scum play is to let town (or any two people) fight and cause chaos. This is something Prism further alludes to in regard to their floo read, where they note that floo seems to be trying to pick a fight with Salsa, how such fights are -EV for town, cause a distracting noise, and possibly setup a miselim. I liked floo's response a fair amount, and am still thinking about it, but this has been my lecture for why diplomatic =/= scummy thank you very much.

So I think it's a bit more nuanced to this. "Picking fights" can be a more negative phrase for pushing, which generally helps people sort and

totally necessary to do as town

. In some sense I'm picking a fight with floo.

I don't find what he's pointing out scummy to begin with and I don't see the town motivation behind intentionally riling her up by revising the arrogance comments, especially in a world where that slapfight with flow trap make sense for her to believe as town FMPOV.

[Prism]

Guess it's just culture shock, I hope

I don't think it's culture shock so much as just me as an individual. Most people definitely put a lot more weight on the puzzle aspect of the game, and that's okay.

I don't really want to drag down the game with meta links but this is really easily verifiable comparing my scum/town games.

As a sidenote, my confrontation of you was directly inspired by a game that recently finished, where myself and a player named petapan both let our egos and unwillingness to bluntly confront each other boil over into something much more toxic later. He gave me a speech about how he thought that keeping a civil face all of the time lead to things being disingenuous and blowing up later, sometimes you just need to say what you have to say, and I've been chewing on that a lot lately. As town I tend to value civility above all else, but that experience has me challenging that idea a bit more.

[Prism]

It's not taboo at all-it's very much encouraged, but it's a lot to tackle for a Newbie game and can be very tedious. It's generally more effective to focus on the game in front of you, using meta only if you have something specific you want to look for or if you just want to get an idea of someone's range.

Since you seem curious, here you go.

Spoiler: Prism meta re:diplomacy

Here's me describing the same preferences as town on a secret alt. This game had unusual mechanics where we could guess a town OR guess a scum with our votes. I was adamant about guessing town for a 2% mechanical EV increase over aiming for scum even when A) I had an EXTREMELY strong scumread and B) voting a single scum instantly won the game mechanically, which is referred to as a white flag mechanic.

My most recent towngame isn't a good one to meta-I was miserable and hated the playerlist-but here's me talking about the puzzle/sorting aspect. This game is also a good example of

why

it's important to communicate and advocate effectively. My reads were, for once, some of the best in the game but I refused to work with an elitist social club I felt did not value anyone else's voice and was openly miserable the entire time. The result was a town loss.

Second most recent towngame, I was an extreme driver of activity and working together. I thought I overshot this one-my intensity resulted in others feeling they should leave the game to me, resulting in a loss.

Perfect Blue shows the same tendency towards working together/townblocking going back several years.

The only scumgame I've played in the last 2 years, where I'm the white-texting half of Black Hole Defection, was a snoozefest where I AFK'd the entire game, gave only baseline reasoning, and eventually was so bored I abandoned my hydra partner. Not a highlight.

My other scumgames are all several years old but every single one has me being verbally hyperaggressive (Last link is a hydra game, I am Stalfos)

tl;dr: Could I be scum being diplomatic for town points? Absolutely. But diplomacy and playing with complete transparency is

my entire thing

as town.

[Prism]

Forgot Xenoblade, pretty recent towngame but hard to sift through as I'm hydraing as the Bush half of Reagan Bush 84. Not really a good read either given how it played out.

[Prism]

I don't think the very carefully curated posts from floo are as town as you think they are.

I'll save judgment on the essay until I see it but the initial reasoning I do not like at all, nor much of floo's play around the stronger slots.

[Prism]

I'm busy atm but the tone this is taking is rather vicious.

I don't like that floo is pushing the negative emotional reactions while baiting more of them. I don't think Salsabil's reaction is the best civil or the best way to play, but I don't understand how this is in good faith, floo.

[Prism]

It's one thing if you think the negative attitude is calculated, faked, or never happens at all if she's town. It's another when you correctly identify that she's angry if she's town and actively bait out more of it, only to take a step back and go "Whoa whoa whoa, civility now"

[Prism]

On another note entirely, 3 days on the clock. Start thinking of second/third choice votes.

[Prism]

I've felt really out of it the last two days and don't have the energy for this game atm. I'm sorry. I will try to drop in later. Fortunately the deadline should be frozen but that's not really an excuse.

I'm glad to see more initiative from Frederick. I do think Spartan has a point in that a lot of your responses have been variants of "You have not supplied a reason for scum reading me" but I'm happy to see you branching out more. We need you.

[Prism]

You've made the case that Salsabil was upset, sarcastic, snarky, and dismissive. You cast these emotions as scummy in and of themselves, such as in your evaluation of 544. This is both overly simplistic and blatantly not true. Town feel, and act, on these emotions all the time.

You also gave plausible scum motivation behind it as being either intentionally evasive or overshooting the reaction emotionally. I don't see a specific scum motivation relating to a read or relating to how she's been voting. These describe emotional responses that are essentially selfexplanatory as town. If you don't feel this is the case, I can go line by line to justify her feelings, but they were obvious to me reading through at the time (see: other players feeling the same way about flow trap)

You had no issue baiting out more emotional reactions, which leaves very unclear what you wanted out of her in the event she were town. You don't seem fazed that these emotions have been proven blatantly real at all.

I wasn't really impressed by working through the quiet ISO and it's unclear to me why you started there over slots that are actually on the table. You've consistently refused to engage with me until now, and it took quiet practically begging you to do so. You've also waited until I specifically said I was demotivated and low energy to finally issue any challenge to me at all.

I strongly doubt I move my vote unless forced to to avoid a miselim. It is deeply frustrating that you are getting a pass for effort. The fact you show zero remorse or reaction to that replaceout at all tells me all I need to know.

[Prism]

Just saw 1261, one sec.

[Prism]

I haven't reacted to Sal quitting the game because reading quiet/Prism/Spartan would be more important than talking to a non-replaced slot. What's really strange is that your predecessor decided to leave the game just because one player was mean to her. She's playing Mafia, a serious conflict-driven game, shouldn't she expect this to happen to her one day. There's an official site post (forgot where) that tells you that rough conflicts and insults are to be expected.

She literally has openly clashed with flow trap all game. You admitted to openly baiting her and being openly abrasive. What do you mean it's "strange" that she'd replace out for this? If she's town she's frustrated, deeply upset, and blatantly does not want to play with you or flow trap anymore. If she's scum she's scared. This is straight up working backwards.

You've completely ignored this entire time that being upset is not a scumtell. Of course she's going to say 'fuck you' as town if she's already upset as hell and thinks you're intentionally picking a fight with her.

[Prism]

@Fairy Welcome to the game and thanks for replacing in!

I think the answer is whatever you feel is more in line with your strengths as a player. For historic points of interest, I think the Enchant wagon might be of interest, as is the wagon on your own slot. I'm currently voting floo, if you want to read there and talk about it. I'm also curious as to whether or not you have any reads beyond quiet.

[Prism]

That's the last of the energy I have for the day. I'll try to rest up for tomorrow, especially since deadline is unfrozen and time is ticking again.

[Prism]

Based on my experience in chat mafia my gut is only a little better than random chance, but I just wanted to share my thoughts.

I almost missed this entirely

If you're a chat mafia player you have seen these same emotions COUNTLESS times from both alignments, half the games literally center around who is the more convincing selfrighteous asshole/caps locker/rager. There is literally no way you read someone being upset/snarky and think it's inherently scummy.

I am literally never not voting this slot.

[Prism]

What do you mean "who are we shooting"?

Who do you want to shoot? Why are you not engaging at all with any of the pushes people are making?

This feels like scum have just gone AFK and I do not like you sitting by the sidelines at all.

For quiet, I'm very sorry to hear about what you're going through. I hope this can serve as a healthy outlet for you. Let me know if there's any play or slots you want to talk about. I think it would help to find a vote.

[Prism]

Actually I'm tired of gentle encouragement/being patient just because you've *~consistently~* been difficult all game.

I want to vote floo. If I can't get floo, and you're transparently not even sorting at all, I will absolutely vote you and feel zero remorse about it if you flip town. Even Frederick is trying.

[Prism]

That's to flow trap, not quiet, if that's unclear.

[Prism]

You have to take guesses and make judgments and risk being wrong. That is the game of mafia.

This is a team game. You have to do your part. Speaking as someone who feasts on town players like you as scum, you will lose against stronger tables if you do this as town, period.

If you're not good at pushing/getting reads yourself, what do you make of my point that floo is pushing Salsabil for being emotional rather than trying to discern whether or not those emotions are legitimate? If you don't favor that line of thinking, others-such as floo-have presented their own.

[Prism]

Let me be clear: I'm not trying to strongarm you into just voting floo because

that wouldn't be enough

even if floo does flip red. You need to give your opinions and make judgments in order to be accurately sorted, tonereads do not hold up in 3/5 way Elo. You need to critically engage and put in real effort into what you're doing instead of galaxy brain bluffing your way to a loss.

[Prism]

How can I help you succeed, flow trap? What do you, flow trap, need from other players in order to stop random voting and make an educated decision today?

[Prism]

And, more specifically, what do you feel is preventing you from making an educated decision of one currently? Or, in the event you have one already, what is preventing you from arguing for it?

[Prism]

God I wish I were scum this game but my life is not so easy.

Right, well, continue doing nothing then, don't cry about it if I or someone else votes you in 3/5 way

[Prism]

I'll go through your ISO if you want but your current vote reasoning was "I'm bored." and your read on floo was something like NAI. You aren't giving zero but you're kicking the can to someone else atm and not being proactive at all, which is deeply frustrating given that I have a read I believe very strongly in and you have not engaged with it whatsoever.

If you want to talk more about Quiet/Spartan/Salsabil slot I'm down to do so.

[Prism]

I guess saying "It's dragging, who we shooting?" is arguably proactive, but my point is if you want something you need to argue for it, and

you should either want something or find something to want

[Prism]

If you want to talk more about Quiet/Spartan/Salsabil slot I'm down to do so.

I can actually go further here and give you more to work with.

Quiet slot I'm not 100% is town but I was a lot more worried about them being scum with Enchant than I was them being scum with someone else. I don't see him painting himself into a corner w/ all these townreads today. Safebet wasn't a great slot to me and quiet's "Oh yeah I forgot why I townread Prism" was pretty sketchy but that's about it. The unvote on Salsabil was good.

Spartan his positioning has been questionable w/ the TvS and scum on the wagon claims but has been fully able to defend virtually every position he's taken. Pushing Frederick is very plausible as scum.

I honestly didn't really read much Salsabil and just put them in the townlean tone bucket as a future project. floo is probably scum though, and while hypothetically she could have been that frustrated/busy as scum I think it's unlikely.

[Prism]

Vote order for me is something like floo -> flow trap-> Frederick -> Spartan -> quiet -> fairy but fairy is the only one that is completely off the table today for my vote.

[Prism]

My intensity for the game can be really isolating at times. I'm sorry for that, especially if you feel at all that I'm making it unfun. This is valid, and unfortunately something I really struggle to rein in.

We have something in common: We both feel that the game has stalled out. My fear is that you, or someone like you, floo, and quiet (less so the last one now in light of his most recent post) is intentionally sitting back and just waiting for us to consolidate on Frederick/Spartan/fairy.

I'm encouraging someone to toss off the bystander effect and to be the change you want to see in the world.

[Prism]

YOOOOOO WELCOME

I concur that flow trap's early game comes off as fairly town, mostly in seeing that a lot of how they choose to engage with others is consistent and probably stylistic. I also found the partner pairings town for the effort. I'm a lot more concerned by their play today but there's a big gap between my top scumread, floo, and everyone else.

[Prism]

From my experience people's eyes tend to glaze over in quote walls, so I like to go for post numbers. Post numbers are better for getting your point across to people and having them actually read your post, but harder for them to immediately verify your conclusion with their own.

It depends on the players though and I'm okay with your format, but I'm not the whole table.

[Prism]

If you click the post number at the top of the individual post you can directly link it rather than the full page.

[Prism]

The issue with it isn't that Salsabil was obviously town, or that you had no reason to push the slot to begin with. The issue is that if those emotions were legitimate, they were always going to continue if you baited it out. If she's scum she feels fear, if she's town she's upset and angry. Taking a step back and rationally explaining would be

great

and all, but it'd be a miracle.

You're claiming to be reaction baiting but "didn't expect sal to respond to my scumread with literally the same thing I scumread her for [emotional dismissiveness]" What did you expect from her as town here where her emotions are legitimate?

You're taking into account the emotions now that I've pointed them out but still failing to use them to sort her slot now knowing that, even if she were scum, she was

probably legitimately upset and did not like the tone of the game

.

[Prism]

1266 I agree being upset is not a scumtell. But being overly upset in response to inconsequential matters is a scumtell. And acting really upset in a way that seems unnatural (i.e. refusing to scumread me while saying I'm playing well if scum but horribly if town, which would be a scumtell in her eyes) is also suspicious.

Viewing the flow trap interaction as inconsequential implies that it's fine to not take it seriously. Yet here we are, pushing the slot for not taking it seriously.

If you're referring to the followup, I do not think you actively and openly baiting her knowing she's upset is an inconsequential matter.

@Prism just to be sure, are you 100% confident I'm scum? I've explained what you're getting wrong about my point.

Nothing is ever 100%, and I miss all the time. The wall did not help. You're my vote for today, if I get it and I'm wrong I'll deal with it tomorrow. If I don't get it, we have a whole week to revisit but you're better off nightkilling me and claiming WIFOM.

I don't think your interpretation of Salsabil is natural, I think that push continues to work backwards from your desired conclusion, and I don't like that it's taken you being legitimately under pressure under deadline to engage with me at any point in the game.

[Prism]

Prism, I apologize for acting like a jerk sometimes; I have decided to trust you can will answer (almost) anything you ask to the best of my ability

It's okay, and I appreciate this.

Personally, I want to know why you don't really want to vote floo today.

That said, my whole point here is that it's a team game. I'm not the only channel/avenue to dialogue through; I don't think talking to scum is the worst thing in the world and there are other town with thoughts as valid as mine. I'm down to talk about any slot you want, and I imagine quiet is as well.

[Prism]

Yesterday was busier than I expected. responding to some recent posts (starting at page 50) first.

1226 and succeeding posts: Fred forced to maintain his appearance of being lazy if scum, and has committed to no effort if town. Asking questions is the best way to get info from Fred at this point, especially yes/no ones that can be answered in seconds.

@Frederick A Campbell please explain whatever reads come to your mind in 5ish words each? Even if you don't have the time to respond to follow up questions, just having the basic reasons is useful to everyone. A brief "Lurking, evades my questions" is far more useful than no explanation.

Typing up some follow up posts quickly.

Blatantly preparing to pivot over to Frederick, yikes dude

[Prism]

Why is floo your main target, why are they a better vote than Fredrick, Sal/Fairy, or Quiet?

Using your response to Frederick:

Why after Prism says they are never not voting floo in 1269 (something I still don't understand as there are far scummier players,

floo has actually been trying to solve the game and has natural reads

rather than just town reading everyone like quiet) does two posts later Fredrick vote floo without any reasoning what so ever, as if to jump on a band wagon yet again, it seems like their play style to vote whoever other people see as sus which is just major scum vibes and I seriously don't understand why people are town reading you at all.

Bolded I actively disagree with, Salsabil vote was very much working backwards. floo is trying to explain but the more he does the more it's clear that he had no consideration for what a town Salsabil reaction looks like. He literally just wanted to bait her and keep pushing her for being emotional. Main two posts where I explain this are 1264 and 1266

I touched on the rest of these slots minus Frederick in 1293.

Please show me where you see fredrick is actually trying? I feel its as if I am reading a completely different game to you guys are some of the posts hidden that he is posting?

I'm referring to the sequence of Frederick posts on Page 50. His posting isn't stellar and he's not a townread, I was using this purely to try and motivate flow trap. This will have to suffice for my answer on Frederick; I'm not voting a coinflip over a real scumread unless I have to. "Coinflip" is a bit generous but you get the point.

[Prism]

re: 1319 I guess I can see why you scumread quiet but this seems to be panic accusatory? Like that went a long way from grandstanding about how Frederick isn't town at all to voting quiet for either defending a scumbuddy or trying to get it voted in 5 way.

I guess it's logically consistent but quiet hits most of your criteria for townreading floo-active, well reasoned (he's explained the townread on me SEVERAL times at this point and at least once was exactly right) and the worst thing about the slot is having too many townreads. floo has been actively pushing Salsabil for being upset, baited more out of her, and when called on it has jumped through hoops about how he was looking for fear with....still no evidence he has seriously considered her emotions being legitimate as town at any point. Half of his last post was more about how he went too far/how he was sorry as though I'm voting him for showing no remorse. I'm voting him because he got a reaction that suggested her being upset

was legitimate

and done all sorts of gymnastics to why he should actually not really worry about it.

[Prism]

I'm about to have to head out for a bit but I'll be back in a few hours if anyone wants to talk then.

It is getting VERY close to the deadline but we do have time and don't need to vote just anybody yet.

[Prism]

Made it home but I'm actually super tired; I'm a bit concerned about the positioning around quiet but it might have to wait until my eyes aren't glazed over. Am going to answer the questions for me and then I'm going to bed. I'll try to be here super early in the morning if anyone wants to talk then.

Bolded I actively disagree with, Salsabil vote was very much working backwards. floo is trying to explain but the more he does the more it's clear that he had no consideration for what a town Salsabil reaction looks like.

Are you scum reading floo based of Sals reaction rather than the intent that floo had to try and gain a reaction from her?

Also you havent said why they are more sus than fredrick, fairy or quiet? just that you didnt like their interaction with Sal

I'm scumreading floo based off of how he pushed Sal and how he reacted to what he got. This does kind of require the Salsabil slot to be town and have a town reaction but my whole point here is that it felt like floo was working backwards from a desired answer of Salsabil scum rather than coming to it organically. This is one of the few tells I put a lot of faith in and have a good track record on.

Did you check the post I linked where I talk about those 3 slots? I don't see why I need to specifically compare floo to each individually when I just explained to you+linked two explanations as to why I scumread floo and I just gave you why I don't want to vote the other 3.

I will have to disagree with you on this, while there may be 8 posts in succession I see it as more of a elongated prodge, I did't feel like it contributed much to the discussion and I defo dont understand those that townread him for it.

I was being generous in that him casting you as disingenuous was by far the strongest stance he'd taken all game. I think you're too hung up on the word "trying", I'm not saying I townread him but when my ass is on the line for a paranoia vote if we miselim I don't want to coinflip it. He's not off the table but he's not my first choice. My reads in general aren't great but working backwards is something I'm pretty good at recognizing

Okay sorry but I'm too tired to respond to flow trap's 1338 and Spartan's 1341, I promise I'll get to them in the morning. Thanks for talking with me, both of you.

Really happy to see fairy this engaged and involved, thanks for staying up late and sorry that I'm at the end of my rope atm. If you've got anything you want to talk about, let me know and I'll respond in the morning.

[Prism]

Actually going to put this in its own post just so they don't think I'm ignoring them

Okay sorry but I'm too tired to respond to flow trap's 1338 and Spartan's 1341, I promise I'll get to them in the morning. Thanks for talking with me, both of you.

[Prism]

Alright, I'm up and moving, making some coffee and then circling back.

Where are people at atm? Who are you willing to vote? We can't have the game go dead right before deadline. I'd be willing to compromise on Frederick if I have to, but I'm not really thrilled about it esp. since he's voting floo.

[Prism]

Dart throw is no, but I'll review the slot since I know flow trap is there atm. Assuming you're neither of flow trap/Frederick we have the votes to vote it at deadline if you want.

[Prism]

If the choice is between Spartan and quiet I'm 100% voting Spartan though lmao

[Prism]

So I spent some time thinking on this and I'm definitely wrong in at least one way, so thanks for that flow trap.

They start off with a town vote, but then they play "I don't want to seem suspicious" post which I believe is #77. However; I do find their explanation (351) to be completely valid as I have stated before town shouldn't go out of their way to seem suspicious which is fair as they were indeed going for that POV. Some solid posts between 77 and 351. Their next post (355) worries me; I believe it was brought up how Salsa was suspicious due to taking a joke seriously, I'm getting the same sort of vibe here. In post 348 they reinforce the "town shouldn't go out of their way to be suspicious" idea which I find town

So I agreed early on that the start was pretty town. Especially coming from a new/less experienced player, this type of mindset is really common. Honestly, there are two explanations I've thought of that kind of contradict. My working assumption that I've used to just kind of shove aside the start as secondary has been that floo is actually quite skilled/experienced and just faked it. Thinking more on it, while that's true, I think they definitely have shown they're still adapting to the forum format too. The careful posting, the disappearing for vast periods, etc. are much more typical during your first forum games. Now I think it's more likely that they do the same thing as town too and just assumed everyone else has the same fear. Chat players definitely are always concerned about their appearance like this: You realize pretty quickly as town that faking some appearance things brings more success than 100% honesty, as much as I always resented that. I think the post you quote next, 438, reinforces this. I think it's either town or NAI entirely rather than floo going out of their way to fake something common among new players.

I don't really want to NK spec N1 but I don't think Esoteric was really in danger of getting voted even w/ the Enchant flip. I think the only person really pushing that by the EoD was Spartan.

I found their push overall towny, it does have a few lows, however. Reading it back it is sounding mildly tunnely since they are talking about salsa 90% of their early posts, not that I find that suspicious.

The emotional push could go either way as Town determination or Mafia emotional shutdown.

I had to skim the latter half of their posts and nothing stood out.

Overall I still find floo town

I'm unclear if the bolded is about floo or Salsabil but my guess is the latter. My entire point is I don't think floo has given the former any chance of being correct at all. He pushed the emotions/dismissiveness as scummy, then actively tried to bait more of them to push on. I don't think they were scummy to begin with, but even if you think they are it's not clear at all what he expected Salsabil to do if she were town and those emotions legitimate. His mind was already made up. Replacement showing them real regardless of alignment did not phase him.

[Prism]

Deadline's in ~11 hours, midnight EST.

[Prism]

Not panic accusatory at all, are you scared your scum buddy has a couple votes on them?

Respectfully, I think you're proving my point here. Take a step back and evaluate the slots individually before you group together like this. Do you think I, as an individual slot, am scum?

I don't know the solution to this puzzle I am trying to view all possible scenarios that make sense to me, a Prism/(Sal/Fairy) is also included in that in my view. floo is a stronger town read for me atm and how you are going at them defending a potential Sal teamate (or using the sal V floo situation) looks a bit opportunistic, I don't see a floo/Prism team at all, my concern is on the possibility it is TvT and we have an imposter team of two from Quiet/Fredrick/FlowTrap/Fairy hmm I feel like I'm the opposite of Quiet where I'm sussing everyone where he town reads everyone.

This again feels like you're trying way too hard to pick the specific team. The only townread you have-floo-I have the exact opposite read on.

Engaging with your case on quiet, 1319, it is unclear to me exactly why the quiet slot is an especially good vote. You're asking him to justify a lot of his townreas/statements, but he's already explained several of them repeatedly. The crux of it seems to be that you don't like that he has that many townreads. As far as I can tell you haven't taken issue with any of them specifically except for Frederick, who I don't think Quiet actually townreads. There's a world in which quiet is scum and is just townreading everyone, yeah. There's also a world where he's just town and wrong on one.

[Prism]

Sorry shadow slug is me. When is deadline? Spartan would be my hammer but I’m not fully caught up yet

Definitely have the votes for it if I'm onboard, will review the slot. Anything in particular you want to point out? I'll check out the post about him letting me go wild on Frederick before I ISO.

[Prism]

Also, fairy, you're currently voting quiet. I don't know if you're waiting until you finish catching up but I Don't Like That Vote Please Stop

[Prism]

Thinking more on NK spec I actually don't think Spartan kills Esoteric here? Arguably they shot for PR reads/their partner forcing it but all of Day 1 for a scum Spartan revolves around pushing Esoteric the second Enchant flips town. 1047 is not worth it at all.

I don't really scumread this slot and it's an absolute disaster if it flips town, not really a fan atm. Still working through.

[Prism]

@Fairy Can you be more specific as to what you're seeing on Spartan/not in floo? Last post of yours had Spartan town, what changed?

[Prism]

I really hope quiet is just letting me singlehandedly lose the game lmfao, would not be the first time

[Prism]

Like Day 1 I had the irrational fear that quiet were doing exactly what I would as scum-try to powertown with immediate thoughts/content and worry about progressions later-but literally every player I have thought this about ever has flipped town (for a total of 4), and if gambler's fallacy bites me this is going to own.

[Prism]

hi floo

who are your top vote candidates atm, do you still scumread fairy?

[Prism]

Maybe someone else can chime in and tell me that scum actually does hard defend in thread like this.

I do, it's one of the scum alignment's best kept secrets, but in general players are really afraid of it. If you harddefend a scum slot it's pretty easy to play the VI role and come away looking town for it.

I was worried Spartan was defending Enchant hoping for that but then Enchant flipped town, so I mean.

[Prism]

I dunno if I'd call it worried actually, but I THOUGHT ABOUT IT

I really don't like to do preflips but I'll try later, are you talking about a specific player or just anyone that's on the table?

[Prism]

Eh these TvS and scum on the wagon comments are still really questionable

Maybe maybe

[Prism]

I agree that is true but I don't see why he is even somewhat vindicated when he was being scumread before them interactions occurred, Floo how do you feel about Prism? Would you be willing to join a wagon on them today?

I forgot how much I hated this post.

Spartan, why was I specified here? When I asked you gave me 1047 which is talking about your read on flow trap over explaining why you were suddenly interested in a vote on me here

[Prism]

Floo, it's a fairy alternate account. Technically alts aren't allowed to play as Newbies but they're allowed as replacements, looking around there are other issues but I'd rather not sidetrack the game with a rules discussion. Fferyllt/PenguinPower can sort it out. They're likely to be more experienced than I thought/have a stronger scumgame but their posts have been fine and Salsabil is still unlikely imo.

Can you give us an update on your reads atm?

[Prism]

Prism, the slots you would entertain today are...floo, Spartian, Fred? As things stand right this second.

floo->Clown fiesta don't no elim lmao

Gun to my head I'd go floo->Spartan->Frederick->flow trap but I honestly think Spartan would flip town here so ???

[Prism]

Prism looks really bad if I'm voted out today. I think Prism being scum only makes sense if Fairy is scum though. I'm not scumleaning Prism atm, but I find that becoming more annoyed, stressed, and determined on single-handedly saving the town creates a good excuse for leading a miselim.

yet annoyance/stress were not plausibly town for Salsabil lmao

FWIW I definitely put too much pressure on myself as town, but I 100% just AFK and let the deadline do the work for me here as scum.

[Prism]

So who is letting you drive a miselim in a townFloo world then?

If floo is town I am fucked LOL

Hypothetically, any of the 5 of you are honestly on the table? Salsabil's emotions being real don't necessarily mean she was town, you are 100% letting me piledrive the game into a loss if you're scum, Spartan would be whiteknighting the town slot and openly fished earlier to see if he could wagon me, flow trap is doing the same but less forcefully, Frederick is Frederick and just wants to avoid an elim as scum.

[Prism]

Now would be a great time to hear from our good friend flow trap, if you're lurking around at all

[Prism]

i thought his treatment of EZ was scummy in that EZ's massive wallpost did nothing to change spartan's read of him. he didn't really engage with many of the reads made in that post. he eventually downplays his fos on EZ (which coincides with other people townreading EZ at this point) and focuses on Fred. i don't think he really tries to get fred voted out at this point though. his defense of Enchant is a townlean for me, but only because it's consistent with his earlier townread on enchant. but after dropping a townread on Enchant and his thoughts on fred, he pretty much dips out of the thread and lets the wagon happen without much resistance.

Rereading, I think I take more issue w/ the timing of his vote swap. Not engaging with the wall makes sense given that he was making a giant global catchup. The reason for backing off of esoteric is

fine

but not great.

The defense of Enchant is questionable and he's noticeably pivoting more to quiet in it.

[Prism]

Skipped a sentence there-I shut down an Esoteric vote pretty hard, he could have kept vanity voting but it makes sense to start pushing quiet/Frederick for the next day.

[Prism]

also can we stop voting quiet thank you

[Prism]

why on earth are the two options locktown or elim? i find these polarizing options baffling - if you're starting to suspect there's a world where enchant is town, why don't you unvote and look for those other names? you're umming and ahhing over this enchant wagon constantly but you never unvote. i just find the progression of [enchant could be locktown -> floo please hammer] in the space of a few minutes to be ... strange.

I mean I did the same thing when I saw the wall though I can't remember the timing, that feeling of being torn between two extremes is very performative, you're right, but I think it's natural in light of how bizarre Enchant was playing. Enchant was straight up lying about the timeline even at the EoD.

[Prism]

WAIT THAT'S AN UNVOTE

OKAY WE'RE GOOD, NO EATING EACH OTHER

[Prism]

floo, you down to vote Spartan with me/Fairy?

[Prism]

Okay I'm about to have to run, I do have plans for tonight but they shouldn't take more than 2 hours and I will 100% be around the ~3/4 hours as we approach deadline to vote anywhere I'm needed.

In the meantime:

VOTE: Spartan

flow trap, Fred, Spartan need to get in here and participate more.

[Prism]

Okay I'm running late but you're right in that that post was a bit meanspirited, I'm still skeptical that her not playing optimally is that scummy given that she definitely had reason to be upset as town. I know you're making a substantive difference claim in that I played optimally while being annoyed while Sal didn't, but I again don't think this is very AI. Either way, I don't think your treatment of her makes sense which is what prompted the comment, but that doesn't mean I have to be a dick about it.

Definitely have been more confrontational today. I didn't like you fencesitting on the harder slots and getting you to engage with my content has been incredibly difficult. You've implicitly refused to weigh in on my alignment repeatedly throughout the game, even now you're looking to avoid a 1v1 but have been very reticent to acknowledge it as being because you think I'm town. You've left it very ambiguous the entire way.

[Prism]

to be clear, still fully expect this to flip town atm, but i'm not getting my first choice and i'm not the town dictator so

OKAY, SEE YOU LATER, WHY AM I LIKE THIS

[Prism]

quiet, why have you not placed a vote at all btw?

Sorry for continuing to check in, this game has become very personal to me, both because of who I am as a player and my history with fferyllt

[Prism]

I don't want to lose, in short, and am risking a lot by going against my scumread to do so. This is more than a single vote to me.

[Prism]

I straight up do not have the votes to get you flipped unless I take the town hostage. There are very real problems with the slot that effort/the Esoteric NK do not completely redeem. I expect it to flip scum about as much as I do Frederick.

There is a lot of history here that I can go into another time, but I refuse to lose the same away over and over by letting my intensity turn me into a unilateralist dictator who demands too much and only pays verbal homage to respecting the views of others. This is me vs. fferyllt in the sense that fferyllt very much wants me to be that player, insists that it is me at my best, and I adamantly disagree. The aspects of my play she views as my strengths are to me me at my worst, and the aspects I have spent years obsessively trying to change. I am not the same player I was 3 years ago, and if I lose then so be it, but it will not be the same way.

[Prism]

ie. If literally no one else sees it, I am down to trust the other players more than myself, especially when the slot has a very real chance of flipping scum

[Prism]

Unless you legitimately scumread floo don't vote them Fairy, people feeling obligated to follow me is exactly what I don't want,

especially in a Newbie game

I'm still out/on my phone but I'm down to talk about the slot more if you want, what are you guys townreading? And I can't remember if you have updated thoughts on floo

[Prism]

gut townreading* but that works too

[Prism]

That said I am being delusional, this isn't some grand test of my philosophy as a player, just a deadline elim. Classic.

[Prism]

Wait I missed 1424!

THIS IS LITERALLY MY ENTIRE POINT FAIRY THANK YOUUUUUU, like there is an indignant town world that floo did not even remotely account for before just baiting more out to shove

[Prism]

5 hours to deadline. We need to consolidate ASAP.

VOTE: Floo should have the votes now w/ quiet and fairy

flow trap, do you think Spartan is scum?

[Prism]

I'm still willing to vote Spartan and hunt around but with Frederick in another timezone this is rough. People need to show up and vote.

[Prism]

@Prism I'm willing to vote floo today, I just don't feel great about it. But you don't feel great about Spartian. If we miss on floo, do you think we hit on Spartian tmmrw? Or do I need to think even harder.

No clue lmfao but given that the alternative will probably me, yeah?

Who's your top vote for the day? Last I remember you wanted floo, do you want Spartan #1 now?

Don't think it's a secret that I hate flow trap's absence today but that's a tomorrow problem, no chance we vote him atm

[Prism]

I'm watching something atm so I'm a bit sidetracked, I'll think on that more and get back to you

[Prism]

I agree some Spartan content would also be nice, is he American? Does anyone know?

[Prism]

5 hours to deadline. We need to consolidate ASAP.

VOTE: Floo should have the votes now w/ quiet and fairy

flow trap, do you think Spartan is scum?

Yes

Can you argue for this a bit more forcefully or are you waiting until Elo to toss us a bone?

[Prism]

Okay Spartan definitely posts around this time usually

Sup dude

[Prism]

??? Fairy can you explain your progression on the two slots more clearly, why do you keep pingponging lmao

[Prism]

I am going to drive myself insane someone help

[Prism]

Howdy Spartan, welcome!

Can you remind me why you specifically asked floo if they'd be willing to vote me earlier?

[Prism]

I disagree heavily with the floo treatment being fair, the fairest post came only after I forced it and it was a lot more focused on showing remorse over evaluating the slot imo

Objectively flipping Frederick and call it a day is probably best but I'd rather force people to place votes down floo/Spartan instead of continuing to be lukewarm. I actually think Spartan-Frederick or floo-Frederick is more likely than Spartan-floo even if it's not out.

[Prism]

OH GOD QUIET YOU DID THAT AS I WAS TYPING THE ABOVE

[Prism]

re: 1460 My issue was that it felt like wagon fishing to me, which in conjunction with the paranoia expressions from others, seemed to come out of left field in a bad way

But okay, wanted to see if floo would jump elsewhere makes sense

Ajcslwnflslwnfoc

[Prism]

lmao if this game is just fucking flow trap and Frederick

flow trap I know you lost a post but it's going to take a lot more than that to get me to vote quiet

[Prism]

This is a pretty big 180 from wanting to work together.

My concern is that you've played the last 24-48 hours waiting for us to fuck up rather than proactively pushing something. You are incentivized to do this regardless of which of Spartan/floo is scum, assuming one even is. Tomorrow is Elo if we fuck up, and you went from Spartan scum and maybe getting voted to voting quiet on a dime. You need to start selling your reads.

[Prism]

ie. We are quickly approaching the point where you will legitimately get voted out tomorrow. No more benefit of the doubt or "flow trap being flow trap". I am voting you over quiet 100% of the time. You need to explain your reads and how you're playing.

P-Edit: This is about to be a nasty 5 way if this is wrong

[Prism]

You're getting coal in the stocking after 2181 I hate to break it to you

Just kidding, you were great