Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

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Heya!

Played with safebet in my first newbie game (and my first game of serious mafia ever), so when I saw his name in the replacement queue, I saw it as a sign. Big shoes to fill; safebet is a quality player, and I’m...well, I try really hard, so that’s something!

I’m up to page 13 on my very casual catch up; started when I PMed ffertllt .

Now that I’m in, I’ll probably do a closer re-read. Might take me till EOD to post, as I’ll be working for most of the day, but I’ll try to give my catch up thoughts tonight when I’m not stuck on mobile.

Excited to play with you all! Especially prisim, just off the icon. Love some Kasey Musgraves, or however you spell it; that particular album was on my top ten that year.

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yeah the name is more so people can tell me to be quiet than because I actually am.

I think I mostly like my predecessors reads. When I finish my catch up, I’m going to start by annotating them with my own impressions, then pull out some notes of things that stuck out to me.

One such thing: Hi Salsa, nice to be here, you’re town asf.

Prisim I also read towny, was sad to learn you’re sus of my slot. We will have to figure that one out.

Be back later tonight!

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Or maybe salsa is just the god of formatting and I’m letting my naked jealousy of their posting technique color my opinion.

Well either way, high effort high quality easy to understand posts gets a +town from me.

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Is the “if at E-1 then I hammer” thing still a thing?

That was enchant yes?

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Is the “if at E-1 then I hammer” thing still a thing?

That was enchant yes?

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Sorry, um

You’re E-1 right now, after your vote, unless I really miscounted. You did not just hammer yourself.

So Enchant, let’s talk about this. Unvote yourself please. Now...why the self vote? If you are maf, that’s practically game throwing. It’s nearly never good. If your town, and this is a joke I’m missing, please stop. I prefer my towns to be voted by a full contingent of players so we can look back on those voting patterns after the fact.

The only reason a self vote is reasonable from my admittedly new perspective is if you need conversation to stop ASAP. But you weren’t super at risk from my perspective; I thought some of this was pressure, and I don’t think day1 there’s some terrifying conversation that is worth sacrificing by half of your scum team for.

So uh, basically, I’m probably going to hammer you later today when I catch up, but for now, unvote pls?

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Oh hey you read my mind. Ideal.

So what happened there enchant?

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VOTE: Enchant E-1

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Enchant you’re breaking my heart here.

If you are town your life is not useless. You’ve just given every scum the towniest reason to vote you ever. If they are going to push you later in the game, make them work for it and expose themselves in doing so. Maybe I missed something that made your elim inevitable, but nothing from what I saw gave me that vibe.

If you are town, have more confidence in your play! You aren’t useless. I’m probably just as bad, just more annoying and a lot louder. If you are scum, just don’t stop lying until you card flips. Either way, keep fighting.

That being said, I think you are just scum here. Sorry.

P.s. pls don’t self hammer if town ty.

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Enchant, maybe go check out my first newbie game. I got scumread as town for p much the entire game by one player, Mikul, who was town, and was generally considered scummy. It’s okay to be seen as scummy sometime, and it can give information. One of the two loudest proponents of my scumminess, and the one who just voted me without much explanation, was Lunar Martian, who was scum.

Point is, you being bad town doesn’t mean you should commit suicide by self vote and Goon slip.

But yeah I’m probably just feeling bad.

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I think you’re scummy.

I want a full five other players to vote for you, myself included.

I want to see who else thinks your scummy. Or votes you. It’s valuable info. Maybe not all that valuable, but better than us not having it by you self voting.

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@floo any chance town!Enchant does the self-vote scum claim from your perspective?

It’s hard for me to ever credit it, but I’m not caught up.

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Any particular Prism suspicious? Or is this literally just a voting for data play

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I think I’m still trying to determine if I ever elim outside of Enchant today. This feels like one of those poker hands you know might be bad, but there’s just too much equity to ever fold.

Sure! That’s a better question than the one I was asking.

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Thanks prism! Just got home, going to relax for a bit, grab a hot chocolate, and read over what is already looking like a really interesting game.

If you want to read a game with scumSafebet and townMe, go check out newbie 2045. I’ll do my best not to let his takes infect mine too much, but I respect his play, and will likely make full use of his reads as a resource.

Knowing his alignment makes it easier to trust them for me; but obviously I don’t know which reads were fully open, which were more reaction testy, etc. I’ll form my own takes, but I’m interested to see how they correspond to his, and where they diverge.

No re-read, not fully caught up, hot takes on

Flow trap: towny vibes. I can think of some reasons why scum do the “I’m going to make 3 even wagons and see what happens” play, but I think it’s something town does with more frequency. This is pure gut, along with some other interactions I recall liking, but couldn’t quote if you asked. I’ll be looking to make a better read when I go back to the start on my laptop. Flow trap also pings me as experienced, which means I have to determine if I’m able to note AI stuff from them day1 at all.

Esoteric: I don’t even recall the slot. That’s not great on my end, I should probably remember at least something about every slot. Either I was just very distracted during my first casual read, or they’re lurky. Without going back, that leans scum to me, but that’s by far my worst impression.

Spartan: I think my take on Spartan is probably colored by all the other takes I’ve seen about Spartan. Without looking back, null. Nothing pinged me so hard I took note of it, I remember being interested in some of their back and forths, I just don’t feel like I know enough to give a good impression rn.

I’ll keep those three in mind when going through my first formal read!

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the two posts I link to Spartan here explain it:

I saw these, and agree that I will likely not be able to address them. I have no idea what his “clashing motivations” were, though I’m vaugly excited to see if I can re-construct them. Call it a stretch goal. Probably won’t be in any way accurate or useful, but I think I’ll write them down and PM him after the game to see if I was right or way off.

Maybe the read list will solve itself, as people flip. I’ll be annotating his with mine, and noting where I agree and disagree.

Though frankly, I’m a newbie too. What is the most productive way for me to engage as town? This game has, like, three players whose style I’m already interested in adopting bits and pieces of. The readability (as in legibility) of this game is great, in a way that my posts just...are not. I’m too rambly.

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I’ll keep an eye on the thread if anyone has real-time questions, but otherwise, expect an update when I’ve caught up! Maybe a few waypoint posts along the way.

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Just finished a close read through Act 1: RVS turned flow trap Flashwagon. Things that stood out:
Esoteric Zoomer

Spoiler:

I finally realized who esoteric is. I’ve been calling them zoomer in my head. I take back what I said about them being lurkey to the point of me not remembering them; I remember them just fine.
I disagree with most of esoteric zoomer’s push against safebet for putting flow on E-1. I think it’s perfectly fine, Not_Mafia isn’t in this game, and a day1 quickhammer would be a fascinating bit of info that I don’t see as a massive risk on page 5 or whatever it was when this went down. Despite disagreeing, I light townread them for the way they did it. Seems like a very early push for mafia to come out that guns blazing. This is a weak gut read, but it’s where I’m at. If they keep pushing on safe beyond what is reasonable later in the thread, or if they make other low-effort reads, I may flip this to scum.

Flow trap

Spoiler:

I’m likely throwing flow in my null bucket for the day. I don’t think I’m finding AI stuff from them without some flips and voting patterns to narrow the field. They’ve felt in control/within their range the whole time during the progression of voting and the conversations surrounding it.
Also, I’m noticing more than a few instances of this:

and the second I will not state as I do not feel it should be shared yet and it's still developing

I get ansy about reads that are announced but not shared. Either you flip town before you share them and I’m left wondering what brilliant game solving insight you could have had, or you skate by giving half of your takes and I feel sad when you flip mafia. This is a bias, I understand there are good reasons to not give full reads, but I dislike announcing them.

Enchant

Spoiler:

Enchant’s very first act was to claim Mafia Goon. Given the selfsame claim and accidental not actual self hammer, I think this data point makes me want to elim there, like, 5% less, as I put t. Unfortunately I still don’t think I ever get away from a vote on them today. I would struggle to read this slot without all the recent stuff I think; wearing newness/“I’m so bad at town” on sleeve works great for scum or town both.

floo:

Spoiler:

Right, as I explained I said it was "partially serious" to avoid seeming scummy / too random.

This earned you a suspicious iso. Flow trap’s color coded sentiment analysis on one of your next posts also was interesting. Thinking about it, I don’t believe scum admits trying “to avoid seeming scummy”, but I’d be curious where that fear came from in the first place. Your 351 addresses it to my satisfaction, but I kinda like Spartan for immediately pinging this out.

From there, floo becomes my early strongest townread. I stopped at the 500s in their iso, but their reads match up very well with my own (slightly more informed by future thread info) reads, the progression makes sense, and...well, if Enchant flips scum, in townlocking floo for at least a few days for their early and well reasoned suspicion in 582.

Those are all the key players in act 1, from my perspective.

Tldr: Floo town, locktown if Enchant scum, going to table reading flow trap to tmmw, Enchant introduction relates to self vote claim, liked Spartian pinging floo quote I also pinged on, EZ towny for safebet sus for now, but floo has made me want to watch for progression.

Next, Act 2: The Fredrick Wagon, after a short interlude of long posts between flow trap and Salsa

Also still stuck on phone, so slow going/poor formatting. Sorry.

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So I have a big wall of tips here.

Hey, so outside of the game, this is the most effort anyone in the newbie queue has put in to making me feel both welcome + improve at the game. Actually, this entire thread is full of people who are modeling a playstyle that’s just...really fun and high effort, which I enjoy a great deal. So thanks prism, and thanks everyone else too.

Back to my catch up

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This is a really bizarre angle. Why does having an individual read/vote depend on others having posted?

The moment that Prism started suspecting my slot. The inception of doubt.

Idle thought; does someone want to tackle an updated pair analysis? It’s a fun perspective. I might try one. Had a SE yell at me that partner analysis generally was not very effective, and I think they may be correct, but it’s an interesting exercise.

@Flow, which of your partner reads from that chart has held up best, and which do you think has held up worst, given how the rest of the day has proceeded?

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From my perspective, unless we are seeing a day1 hard bus (which can be sorted out day 3 or something)
If Enchant flips scum, I townlock

Floo (from my prev post)
Esoteric (from his holy readlist batman, the ONLY negative I can give that giant wall you posted was that it seems emulateable as scum as it’s basically sentiment analysis, but honestly it’s towny to me and pings out Enchant most of all)

I think Enchant flips scum over half the time here, and it would be nice to narrow my FoS for a while.

Anyone disagree? Think either of these two bus with any frequency? And of course this pre-supposes a scum flip; The one downside of an Enchant elim is a town flip doesn’t really implicate anyone (as now everyone has a legit excuse to vote them).

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Think I’m done here for the night. A lot more to get through. See you tmmrw!

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do you not find that his reasons for claiming goon make absolutely no sense?

Do you think that enchant makes sense as a player?
Again, it’s basically an auto elimination but I think there legit is a nonzero chance this is just....realllt really strange play. Too low of a chance to not elim there, but I think saying they’re always scum might be a stretch.

Hope they flip scum, that would make sorting you considerably easier.

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also I’m a lil surprised the wagon on them stalled out, other than to leave room to hunt elsewhere. Is anyone categorically unwilling to vote Enchant today? Is there any utility in waiting on this flip?

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so flow, did you get what you wanted out of the 3 even wagons?

If so/not, any reason not to just elim enchant and move forward? Or do expect to extract more value from today.

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Post= 365 by keeping esotericzoomer's post 444, it actually makes sense, like you tried to protect/defend your scum partner (in this case Enchant) there

Huh.

Hey Salsa. You still credit Enchant/Fredrick as possible partners?

I don’t hate the read, I’m just not sure if scum defends scum exactly like this. Maybe they do, and if Enchant flips scum I’m absolutely going to be looking at Fredrick hard. Curious if you’ve changed your mind given the recent Enchant stuff/anything beyond where I’ve caught up.

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So there was a interesting, slightly emotional/confrontational set of interactions between flow trap and Salsa in the early 400s. I don’t read it as AI for either of them really, though at this point I maintain my null on flow and lean town on Salsa. However, this quote from Prism really caught my eye.

Spoiler:

I really hate to be blunt but it's better I do it now than later.

flow trap, you need to put your ego aside this game. It's getting in the way of you being effective and are making you elim bait.

You've taken the exact same dismissive attitude to players repeatedly throughout the game. Your explanations for why range from lackluster to promises of galaxy brain plans. Stating that you're not vulnerable to bias due to experience misses the entire point of bias.

I support you pressuring for a read but I don't support you continuing to be evasive/dismissive of concerns and questions under the guise of big brain. It forces me to guess whether you're being egotistical, malicious, or both.

I read this as incredibly towny. Faking solving the game is one thing, but faking trying to fix a town dynamic that could lead to a miselim based on your reads (as in, faking building town cohesion) seems...really really hard.

Prism is way more experienced, so I guess it’s conceivable that this is within their scum range, so like flow trap to some degree I probably want to be a little slow with my townread. However, this is such a specific play, and it feels super towny to me.

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The alternate option on that post is that it’s god tier shade, but I read it as town telling someone to shape up, not scum trying to discredit. That’s just my read on the situation. I’m about to read flows response (if there was one).

Curious if anyone thinks this is AI to the degree that I feel it is.

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Enchant - I think both his wish to impose new "meta" inconjunction with voting flow trap and not genuinely interacting with him despite flow having the most activity by far is cause for concern. Put that together with his ingenuine attempts at endearing himself to others. He is a current scum read.

Hey this looks good for safebet if Enchant flips scum!

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Flow Trap - Fake as hell. Zero reaction to being put on E-1, elusive, aloof, clownish at times. Anti-town at best, scum trying to flood the thread with fluff at worst. The scum pair table is a joke.

Well this is a spicy hot take. I don’t think I agree exactly-I can see some town reasons/outcomes resulting from their play, which I wouldn’t call cartoonish. But safebet is a good player/I respect his reads, so this is still a useful data point.

I’m very glad I decided to sort flow tmmrw. I think I’ll have harder questions to ask if Enchant flips scum (I currently blame flow for stalling out the Enchant wagon, and I don’t think flow pushed on enchant today. I might be forgetting, but if they didn’t, I’ll be looking at them hard).

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also, I’ll note that flows response to Prisim’s post was more...flow being flow. Little one liners, quick statements. The form culture shock and arrogance as a defense mechanism were both nice touches. I read flow has enjoying themselves, and the response NAI like every other thing they’ve done. Sound like a broken record, I’ll probably not post about that slot any further today.

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I don't like how you are more concerned with voting with the pack and joining a train rather than following your scummiest scum read, that stinks of scum wanting to hide amongst town.

It bothers me on your disregard for who your voting, rather than having some more pinpoint accuracy on how scummy your read is, instead youre happier to vote off anyone who you may have a scum lean on rather than a more solid read on.

In post 446, esotericzoomer wrote:
i would like to ask for towncred

EZ seems much more interested in being town read than act

Oof. This post scumpinged me hard. And I was really liking Spartian up to that point.

These feel like really bad faith arguments. EZ also had some previous suspicion on them from floo and at least one other, so it would be a sensible place for scum to push on. This post earned you an iso.

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You're disregarding any semblance of natural progression I had and rather you're cherrypicking my post's and warping them to fit your narrative.
Case and point, I make a joke, you read it as me wanting to be townread instead of me pushing my reads.

Yep this, exactly this.

EZ is def a townread for me

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Last post for a bit sorry for all the spam.

Spartan vs EZ is now the most interesting thing in this thread for me. Reading further, my first impression is town v town, but I want to revisit this and see if there’s anything to pick up. I’m walking back my immediate suspicion of Spartan a bit, but there’s something there. Also:

fyi I'm not paying attention to you (flow) as whatever alignment you are, you are anti town...

Huh. I’m breaking my word. This is an open question for anyone:

Do you think that flow trap’s play is anti-town? I’m curious where people stand. I don’t think it qualifies/am not convinced that it is, but I think hearing people’s current takes on this would be useful.

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So town would be better off had I done nothing?

Low bar you are setting for yourself here. How would you recommend I sort you?

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Pedit; I recognize that it was a response to Spartian saying you weren’t ever helpful and that it’s unfair of me to snipe it out like that.

More interested in how you play. If this is townYou, it almost seems like you’re playing town in a way that balances your scum range. If that makes sense. Thus the question of how you recommend sorting you; the “am I having fun” thing is a tough read for me

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I want Fredrick to come back and weigh in on the Enchant wagon + EZs statements (which they sort of did before).

I also would think those on the Fredrick wagon would be happy to move over to the Enchant wagon; not sure why they havnt.

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Yessir to mr. Part wolf

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About to go through them pages now, Just wanted to say I didn't say he wasn't ever helpful, I was referring to when I had asked him questions and he was dismissive/illusive. My frustration also stems from not being able to get a strong read on the slot, overall I have a pretty Null real, I can see townie and scummy reasons for the things they have done.

This is fair, didn't mean to misrep. your point, Spartan. I share your read on flow as null.
Very interested in your take on Enchant's 691-693. Frankly, you could read from 678 on and get the critical stuff.

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myself? i would reread some slots pushing this with me as i doubt mafia would stay passive/neutral in this situation
but im 99.9999999999999999999999% this is just enchant/fredrick

The only real issue from my perspective with the enchant elim is that if they flip town, we have basically no real info.

They did enough suspicious things that pushing on them early doesn't look terribly bad.

Their self-vote openclaim Mafia Goon makes them so suspicious that literally anyone can vote them without looking bad.

There might be some info to find somewhere on a push on them, but frankly, it feels like Day1 part2 if they flip town, and it feels like who gets killed at night or bad solving or something would provide more info that anyone pushing the Enchant slot.

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I'm not sure FaC is maf

I'm not convinced either, but I tend to think EZ is a tunnly town as a result of the way they've pushed it/other slots today.

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Their self-vote openclaim Mafia Goon makes them so suspicious that literally anyone can vote them without looking bad.

This also makes me feel even better about elimming them, as I would think if they were not mafia, this wagon would be over and done with and we'd be in the night faze already. Like in a townEnchant world, mafia has a totally free elim just waiting for a vote.

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you're being too paranoid

Eh, I've already said I never find a vote outside of Enchant today, and I'm surprised it hasn't been hammered yet, frankly.

And the read wall was good! I townread you for it. I'm not convinced the way you are about Fredrick, and you've been pushing them since that wall. That's tunnly. I hope your herosolve is right though!

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Flow, hop on board the enchant train. Come on. You know you want to.

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https://www.braingle.com/games/werewolf ... 00;round=1
I go by a different alias, but you can probably figure it out

Also my brain hurts trying to read for your posting style to determine who you are so I can then metadive you and see if this is how you always post and this kind of unnecessary complexity is why you are difficult to engage with lol. My running theory is that it's the one with the animated profile pic. It's just an obvtell.

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Yeah, I'm Rove the Stickfigure

God I feel so satisfied to be right about that. You’ve just boosted my reading confidence 2x.

Cool well can confirm Rove I mean Flow is perfectly capable of playing like this as
you were town that game? Or scum?

Well can confirm that they play mafia.

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Heya enchant, can you give a full read list for posterity? Just everyone’s name and how you lean on them, though explanations are also appreciated!

Will try to get back on late tonight.

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Heya Fred! What’s your read on Enchant?

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Eh, you’ll know it when you see it. Your response just now p much gave me what I wanted to know; I read Enchant as scummy for reasons that will become obvious when you get to them, your name has been thrown around as a possible partner to Enchant, but your response right now is not what I’d expect if you were partners.

The relevant posts start around page 28. Start when Flow votes for Enchant and the wagon begins.

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Alrighty, I think the point has been beat to death.

Hey flow! I’m having fun playing with you. You have a way different style than I do, I don’t think I could ever adopt it personally, and I see that it frustrates other people, but you’ve given me some really cool moments in both my catch up and in our interactions, and you havnt fake claimed a power role or anything that would break the game mechanically for me, and at no point have you lashed out angrily, even in the face of a decent amount of pressure. Maybe throw us a bone or two though?

Hey Slasa! I hugely appreciate the work you’re putting in this game. I’m having a lot of fun playing with you. You give open takes, spend time on formatting to make sure your content is readable and useful, and generally are a high effort poster. I can 100% understand how in the face of that effort, flow’s like...opaque play style that is intentionally not providing complete info could be really frustrating.

But it kinda feels like we’re hitting a point where that frustration is turning into something uglier, and flow is happy to feed the flames a little, chaos for the chaos gods and all that. I’d prefer if

well, we could table it for now, cool off, get back to the having fun bit.

Flow, at some point you will have to work with a few players a bit. Meet them like, 25% of the way to being open. I don’t know if I would call what you do arrogance so much as gleeful chaos and a strong belief in inducing other people to play a messy game where you feel you have an edge. I feel like I’ve played poker players like you, who love putting everyone else in a tough spot to try and judge reactions, who are comfortable in a chaotic game.

Salsa, unless there’s anything you feel you super need from him today, I’ll say I’m not ever voting him day1, I don’t think a full 5 would be willing either, so I’ll ask you to join me in throwing flow in the “let’s sort their antics tmmrw” pile, and if they get way under your skin, just ignore them for the rest of today. This isn’t to shut down conversation or anything! I just...the arrogance thing is starting to sound like attacking the person not the problem (which is their nullness), and I get plenty of that in my real life.

Thanks everyone! Sorry if this is out of line, but I’m just here to have a great time and try to sort people, to get better at my social reads, and to get better at presenting my ideas in a concise and effective way. I love incomplete information games. Flow gives more incomplete information than most. Maybe it’s a -EV playstyle, but I’ll wait to judge till after the game. I can see some utility for it, and am willing to put up with it to a point.

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Like seriously this is already my fav game of mafia and I know I’ve only played 1 full game but the sheer amount of effort going into this game makes it a joy for me to play. So thanks everyone! Now be great to each other.

Maybe I’m just conflict adverse. Idk.

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Hey Salsa! How did you read Fred’s recent set of posts?

I find their lack of...content or reads or good faith engagement with arguments (as in, the “I can’t respond to you unless there is something specific to respond to” or “I ignored your post about your suspicions on me because that was just your opinion and you can’t argue opinion”) as a fairly polarizing take; they are either very scummy for it, or very town.

I also do not believe a Fred/Enchant partnership is anywhere close to as likely as EZ does.

Hey EZ, did Fred’s recent posts effect your partnership take at all? Or do you still think they could come from a scumbuddy of Enchant?

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Killing me when?

Hey! Thanks for the reads. I think there’s value there, I don’t think they were useless.

To your point on me voting you/talking to you about unvoting yourself/asking you not to self hammer, I had a couple motivations. Mind you, this was very spur of the moment.

I don’t think townYou self hammers there when I ask you really nicely not to. If scumYou self hammers, town loses a bit of time to chat, but we gain a ton of info, and I didn’t assess that as super likely. (Note-I mean after I ask you not to self hammer, you were perfectly willing to self vote or self hammer generally)

I was really hoping (and probably overplayed my hand a bit) that someone else would quickhammer or generally hop on board very loudly. That would have been a very interesting data point to try to sort potential partners as scum looking to distance, or if you flip town, opportunistic scum with a perfect reason to miselim.

I wanted to keep the pressure on you up because god dammit as much as I don’t think I get away from your elimination today, I have this stupid itch that tells me this is confusing asf town, and I wanted to see your reaction to the continued pressure. Sadly, I can’t read your jester antics really and feel like I have to just shake my head and keep voting you but...damn man I’m gonna be real sad if you’re VT.

Hope that helps you understand some of why I did what I did! Also, I just really don’t like it when people drag/insult their own play. I think you’ve been fine this game! But it’s hard to sort you when you sorta...dont play towards your traditional win condition (like getting yourself elimmed day1 as town has a 0/9 chance of getting a scum, voting randomly would be 2/8 so 25% as you know you are town, 25%>0%, so just do the 25% thing). Not only does not doing that feel strange/scummy, you let other scummy players escape notice because what you did was just so different!

I guess I’m asking you to tell me how you would sort your own play. Like how can I actually figure out if you are scum or town based on what you’ve done?


TLDR stop tryin to get killed pls thx

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Later, Fredrick A Campbell and I have some conversation to do.

Maybe lay out like, 3 really really concrete things you want Freddy to respond to. I get the sense that they are a rather literal, concrete person, and they have previously been disinterested in responding to “opinion” based rhetoric or suspicions.

For my own curiosity, what do you feel like you need from Fred?

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I don't really like this post in light of the post you're quoting with 823? 823 suggests scum/town alike will both wagon without issue, and so there's no info from an Enchant townflip, while this post is suggesting that scum will instantly jump on if it's a townflip. I both personally disagree with this and think it's inconsistent-mafia needing to vote it is info, even if they don't I think it's info based off of why they justify not doing so. If it's a free elim mafia don't have to vote it, and are actually incentivized to avoid it. Whiteknighting town slots is one of my most common scum tactics and I catch others doing it all the time.

Yeah this is a really good point. I don’t think I’ve been very consistent or clear on this.

There is considerably less info from a Enchant townFlip as there would be in a case where a wagon got formed on a less polarizing player. I think no info as an exaggeration, but I still feel it’s a concern; not to mention that I keep flip flopping on just how likely a townFlip is.

As to the scum would jump on idea, as I mentioned in my most recent post, that’s half something I believe scum could get away with (as a more extreme example, a slot that fake claims and is caught as town...I don’t think the votes on that person are AI at all), and half me hoping to induce a bet (get scum to vote it cause I keep pushing how safe it is).

As I don’t think votes on the slot give that much info, I was/am flailing a bit to try to get some. This might be a bad take haha but it’s the best I got.

We do seem to agree that it’s a free elim though, which is bad for town if town for more reasons than it just being a miselim?

[quiet]

4. I'm not insulting my gamestyle, it's just really different and i acknowledge that and calling it bad, and i somehow can't act in other way. I just wanna tell, i'm not gamethrower. Please don't call me that.

Okay, even if I don’t understand it, I’ll respect it. Don’t mean to accuse you of gamethrowing, it’s hard for me to wrap my brain around mechanically, but I guess I’ll hope to figure it out after the flip.

Hey, I played with a player in my first game who fake claims so often and never posts more than two or three lines in every single game to the point where people just reference the BBMola meta and refuse to sort them as scummy day1 if they do such antics. You don’t necessarily have to change your play, though you can always try if you’re unhappy with it; eventually, this will just become the Enchant meta.

[quiet]

I find enchant’s read on fredrick very convenient, he provides reasoning for everyone of his reads yet when it comes to fredrick his “reasoning” was a lot of filler

I mean their read on me is very similar/predicted Prisms read on me today. I don’t think it’s all filler.

[quiet]

Sorry wrong quote you know the one I meant.

For Enchant, if you're town the correct answer just isn't to selfhammer at all...but if you're not hammered and claimed mafia to troll, well, you kind of dug this hole yourself.

Hey prisim, does that unvote mean we are ever getting away from an elim there? If so, you’re a braver person than I. I smiled a bunch when I saw it though.

[quiet]

He hardly read game at all.

Lowkey I think this first bit is a valid read. The rest, sure, filler, strange tests, okay, but:

Right now, reading Fred is deciding wether the fact that he has barely read and engaged with the game is:
1. scum trying to fly under the radar
2. slightly disinterested or busy town.

Scum by definition cannot be totally uninformed and totally disengaged, as catching up in a PT is a lot quicker than catching up to 35+ pages. Also they know the answers already. As scum, being disengaged and not having caught up is an act, especially if they are partnered with Enchant.

Problem is, I read their confusion/lack of engagement as pretty legitimate. A little anti-town, but not obvscum.

Not saying I townread Fred, I’m pretty null, but that’s my process for sorting Fred atm. Enchant’s read actually mentions it. So it’s not all filler. Hardly reading the game is a legit if very speculative reason to townlean someone.

[quiet]

None of Salsabil/FaC/Spartan/flow are currently inclined to vote there.

Yeah and ain’t that an interesting fact.

Why'd it make you smile?

It shouldn’t, it probably puts me on the shortlist of alternate elims and I’m having way too much fun to want that to happen, but it just feels like a hero fold in poker. Like, sure, in most games when someone claims mafia scum and says ggs after miscounting a self hammer, welp, that’s getting voted right out. But maybe we manage to get the high risk, EV- laydown in this one particular spot, and it turns out they were VT, and that just feels amazing.

Plus I want to know who enchant votes for when we take self elimination off the table. Feels like a therapy session. Believe in yourself! You don’t need to self eliminate. Trust in your reads! Now go out into the world and hunt scum!

It’s exciting, so I’m smiling. I just don’t know if I can find the fold myself. It’s just a scum flip with too much frequency.

[quiet]

i guarantee you he didn't read it the same way you do

Yeah fair.

Frankly I don’t know why I’m defending the readlist of someone I’m gonna keep voting regardless. I probably need to stop posting everything I’m thinking and try to be more focused.

[quiet]

No. Bad. No self votes.

If five members of this town can’t decide to vote for you, then you shouldn’t die. That’s my strong take.

If you absolutely had no choice but to vote for another player, just on instinct, who are you voting for Enchant?

[quiet]

Nope.

I still want die and wait before you will do that. Nothing changed.
And i expect you to vote me out, and will against any elumination outside me, unless you find someone who looking like confirmed mafia. And you will not find him so early.

Also does mafia ever ever do this?

Prism, you just gave Enchant a real good excuse to repent and decide to live after all. They turned it down and continued self voting even harder.

Maybe they’re waiting for someone to come in and white knight the slot? Maybe to make it even more convincing? I’m getting all kinds of WIFOMed rn.

[quiet]

You want a thousand post day 1.

Fair enough.

Fine, I’ll bring it up, this could get us there.
Do we want to gamble the game day1 that Enchant is just self hating town that had a shitty experience getting miselimed and feels that this is the best way to play? Following the principal of flipping my mind, what if

Yes I know this is stupid

We just townlock them, don’t reconsider till ElLo, and get back to hunting?

Downside: they’re always making it to ElLo, which has challenges both if townEnchant or scumEnchant.
Downside: it’s def not GTO (optimal) play, this would be like a huge exploit that could easily screw town day1.

Upside: kinda think Enchant might be town
Upside: gives us 5 more posts
Upside: let’s me ask the question, if Enchant was off the table, who gets elimmed today?

Also why isn’t Enchant elimmed already? It’s an incredibly strange wagon dynamic that so many people seem to be just paying passively, not commenting on the Enchant wagon or what happened, and not declaring if they’re going to vote or not vote. I would not expect the game to freeze like this.

[quiet]

Also why isn’t Enchant elimmed already?

I don’t mean this like someone do it already (but also that’s fine), I mean this like why is the dynamic since page 25 when flow started this wagon been so......strange and glacial with so many people flat out ignoring this wagon?

Like lowkey I might go back and track down which players have addressed it. Some players just haven’t it seems like.

[quiet]

I did preface it by saying it’s stupid as all hell.

But if it takes three more posts to satisfy our resident chaos god Flow here, then dammit I’ll fall on that blade.

If Enchnt were off limits, you’d want Fred, I assume?

[quiet]

That’s at least marginally useful.

Also flow vote Enchant please and put this day out of its misery.

[quiet]

I meant just off limits today. Like who your second most scummy person is, not related to my mostly inflammatory really poor locktown play.

I think I’m going back to sleep, tired posting is just not the move.

[quiet]

Glad we got floos take, even if partial, before a flip.

[quiet]

I’m V/LA traveling back to school until tmmrw morning.

Want to review EZ nk equity, see if there were any obvious breadcrumbs or if it was just a widely townread slot. Otherwise, I’m excited to champion some EZ reads.

Enchant, I’m going to start a suicidal towny hotline after this. Just don’t fake claim, and everything will be okay.

[quiet]

I’m V/LA traveling back to school until tmmrw morning.

Want to review EZ nk equity, see if there were any obvious breadcrumbs or if it was just a widely townread slot. Otherwise, I’m excited to champion some EZ reads.

Enchant, I’m going to start a suicidal towny hotline after this. Just don’t fake claim, and everything will be okay.

[quiet]

Actually, flow can tell me the NK equity probably.

The enchant flip gives us basically no info as feared.

[quiet]

My immediate thoughts were “should have just townlocked them and moved on, this gives us nothing”.

I don’t think particularly anyone stands out as a paragon of scum for how they interacted with that wagon. It’s basically a policy elim at that point. I couldn’t find a hero fold there, so why should I expect anyone else to have?

I think the NK is our best bet for info, but otherwise my immediate take was, great, day1 part2, electric boogaloo. I’m probably being dismissive and I’m sure that there’s some info to be gained, but right now I’m trying to figure out what two wagons help solve the game most today, and will need to review to see if there’s anyone that benefits from an EZ kill. I retain some townreads I feel good about, and I remember townreading EZ (I hope I did, havnt looked back yet still traveling), so there was a lil disappointment there.


Flow doesn’t get NKed, I never do, Fredrick doesn’t, as we had suspicion from yesterday. Spartian falls into that category, but was less sus than us three. I think salsa gets left alive, not over suspicion, but because I think they’re not the scariest town.

I could see floo getting killed, EZ obviously did and was pretty widely TRed if I recall correctly, Prisim you also do often I think, though you fall into the category of scary as a competent scum threat, and may be left alive for that reason.

I’ll need to review as to why EZ was the choice over floo and you. That is my no review (and possibly fallible memory) reaction. When I’m done traveling I’ll read back over and give stronger reads about my suspicious, but other than a TR on Floo which I wholeheartedly retain, I don’t think there’s any that feel locked for me without looking back.

I’m interested in why the push on Fredrick happened, and why it’s still happening. Trying to decide if it’s a good wagon today. I think I’m inclined to hunt somewhere else, but if other people want to champion that I’ll be very interested.

[quiet]

I’ll be off V/LA by the end of the day. Plan to do a catch-up and more content driven posts at that time.

Floo, I don’t quite understand your Salsa scumread, but when I review more closely maybe it will make sense.

Spartian, I’ll respond to you when I get to a computer, but I’m a bit surprised by your take; I was operating under the perception yesterday that my slot was generally a light scumread for people, which is why I made the assertion that I basically never die last night. I’ll have to review the thread and see if I was more townread that I thought, but it wasn’t a distancing argument so much as me trying to make sense of the only real data we have post a suicidal towny.

Salsa, you get almost indignant with your posts sometimes when responding to people lobbing suspicion your way. Do you think that’s AI at all?

Flow, I think I’’ going to just townlock you for a day or two until something makes me question. The town is strong with this one.

Fredrick, I don’t have much of a read on you at all. However, I don’t like a Fredrick wagon today, it feels LHFish (this is a gut feel thing, I don’t have a strong logical argument at this time for thinking they’re scummy or towny, I just think a wagon somewhere else gives us more info.) I’d be curious what wagon Fredrick would propose.

And prism I think I’m scared of you too, but I’m hoping we can work that out. If flow doesn’t have a reason off the top of his head, mine is that nothing that has happened this game would have forced you to step outside your town range, and I think you are top tier unlikely to slip. Yeah yeah burden of proficiency well stop being so nice and such it’s scary, because I love playing with you but that little bit of fear is going to stay until something mechanical or polarizing happens to force you outside of your comfort zone. To some degree, this applies to a few people, but I think you’re exhibit A in this lobby.

Very IIoA I know, but this is mostly just a post to say that I’m alive and finished my journey with only a few dramatic turns. Also, I was expecting to have to catch up on a lot more, and was interested to see only a few pages.

[quiet]

Hey I'm back entirely now, sorry it took a bit.

As much as I want more pretty tables, I'm not convinced at this stage partner analysis is all that useful. Hell, I'm having trouble putting together a scumpool I feel comfortable with, so full on day2 partner analysis? Idk about that one. (Though remind me to review the original FlowTrap Official Day1 Partner Analysis™ after the game, and if he's got the two marked as likely pairs, I'll make one of my own day1 the next game I play).

Where I'm at:
town people:
{spartan, flow}
people that scare me, who I effort read as town, which is exactly what they want, and whom I really need to find a way to sort:
{floo, prism}
people who I don't really want to vote today, who I think are an easy frame, but whose reads I totally disagree with and who come off scummy this game (okay so it's just one person)
{fred}
scummy people:
{salsa}

I'm trying to figure out where the narrative of scum!Spartan is coming from, because I just do not see it. Only one scum game to compare to, like, 3+ years ago in an open setup (and I can't even find the gamethread), but given how quiet this thread has been in the last few days, I don't see why scum would be popping in, trying to get things moving again. Like for a game that has 45 pages of content, we've made maybe 3? Since the night?

So I'm jumping on the Salsa wagon today. Other wagons I'd consider: Prism, Floo, because I sure as hell aren't going to be able to sort them by reading them. No interest in a Fred vote today, I think enough people can eliminate that slot if my gut is wrong about that one without me. When I get a moment, I'm going to see if defensive towny vibes are a thing for Salsa generally, or if this is a deviation, because I'm still early enough in my mafia career to enjoy meta.

also, Fred, don't let me down, man. Why do you scumread not one but both of my townreads? Where did this Spartian sus appear from anyhow? I'm going to go digging and see who pointed fingers first.

VOTE: Salsabil

[quiet]

Also flowtrap, please take care. Scariest experience of my life was running around with a halter monitor for 3 weeks, waiting to find out if they needed to do a bit of electrical automation in there. Hope you/they sort out what you need.

[quiet]

The more I think about it, the more this game slowing down is an interesting artifact that I feel like could indicate something. I was gone (not that I'm all that high frequency), our resident chaos god flow trap was dealing with more serious stuff, Prism/floo are slower, more deliberate posters, Fred has been decently quiet all game, Spartan was doing their best, and Salsa posted a bit on page 44-45. Maybe it's just a slower game without EZ/Enchant, but I feel like scum are taking the opportunity to sit back a bit. They're certainly not going to try to solve the game too hard if town isn't doing so.

[quiet]

Also @spartian, I reviewed day1 a bit, and early day1 safebet222 was pretty broadly scumread for the flashwagon e-1 play, and I know at least Prism continued pushing at me later in the day. I remain feeling decently good that I was disqualified from a NK by virtue of being in scumpools day1.

[quiet]

Why are you not willing to vote Fredrick? are you protecting him or something? It's very odd to me how you would rather vote Floo than vote Fredrick, I feel like while Floo hasnt posted the quantity of the rest their posts have had a lot of content and reads and have overall provided towards the town, while fredrick has yet in my eyes to provide a meaningful post, like this post of yours just gives me sus vibes that you can see your scum partner is struggling and youre trying to help guide him.

What from fredricks posts indicates to you he is townie, I have checked and I dont regard any of their posts to be legitimate pushes on players or any reads or anything of the like. It appears to me he wishes to be a passenger on this train and ride along posting without getting noticed, and I feel the only reason he didnt get lynched D1 was because Enchant was more of an attraction for everyone to jump on instead while he hid in the shadows.

I’ve yet to roll Maf since I started playing form mafia, but there is no way in hell this is how I’d defend my partner. This is a lot closer to what I might do if I wanted to distance myself from a miselim, where I had the extra info to know that it would be a miselim. I don’t see a lot of utility in my obviously jumping into the main thread to talk about not voting my partner; I think I’d save the encouragement for the PT. I could give a pep talk! That would be fun. Either way, I don’t have that extra info now; I’ve just been burned frequently by sussing low content posters. Mafia, especially good mafia, which are the scary kind, don’t play like Fred in actuality in my short experience, though it seems to be a frequent idea.

They play like floo, or prism, or sometimes even flow. They maybe play like me. They def play like salsa. I’m sure sometimes they just check out and don’t post much content, but from my perspective that’s a fine RVS/day1 vote that gets worse and worse as time goes on. I think Fredrick will give me more details to help sort them in later days. I don’t think a scum floo or scum prism EVER gives me more details in future days unless they are mechanically forced out of them. There are plenty of people pushing the Fredrick wagon without me being on it. If we get to the end of the day and my choices are vote Fred or we don’t elim, then I’d vote Fred, but I don’t think Fredrick has any trouble getting elimmed today, so if it is a miselim, it forces scum to try harder, and if it’s actually scum, then congrats to us for catching one of them so quickly and with so little effort. I think that’s my thinking there.

I don’t read Fredrick as towny. I read them as null. I don’t want a miselim today, and Frederick is an easy one from my perspective. They are going to be suspicious for the is entire game moving forward. Do you think the extra time let’s them...disappear somehow? I compleatly agree with your last stamsnrt. They only reason they didn’t get elimmed day1 was because of enchant. I don’t particularly think this makes Fredrick a good day2 elim though; scum didn’t need to create a counterwagon, and beyond light day1 scummyness (which frankly is little better than RVS), there’s nothing that makes me feel confident about Fredrick as scum. I’d like to sort someone else. That’s where I’m at, though if you can point me towards a clear scumslip, or something beyond just day1 mehness, I don’t want to vote them RN. I just don’t like it.

[quiet]

You had no problem calling me town Day 1. One of the things that most bothered me about your slot was that 793 was spot on. My intuition was that you had the assistance of knowing my alignment. It annoyed me to think that I could be read off of a single post but in this case it's true-in no world do I step in to rein in flow trap there, and my meta establishes this extremely well. I can backlink you later if you want but the only time I did similar as scum was my first game onsite, and I lost for it. Realizing this was unfair and that I needed to set my pride aside was a big part of why I backed off today

I think I noted in that same post that you would be a scary scum. But frankly, it’s been a really busy few days, and I forgot about that specific reason I townread you day1. I think you are right that I’m probably being too unfair in regards to your slot. I’ll move on to trying to sort Floo now, my other “oh god please be town thx” slot.

As for why Spartian is disqualified from this same paranoia? I think that’s coming from a combination of frequency, detail, and how blantant they are being with their reads. If you pretend I’ve forgotten about the very towny town cohesion thing, what we have are two slots who both post super high quality content at a slower more deliberate pace (floo is further on the spectrum of the slow deliberate pace than you are) that I don’t know how I’m going to sort. So, I wanted to propose the wagons and see if anyone bit on either one.

Can’t help you on the extra assistance/tmi thing, I don’t think townreading someone working on town cohesion is a crazy read.

[quiet]

To clarify for anyone else, Prism is back in my townbucket. I’m a sucker for people who de-escalate fights, what can I say.

[quiet]

In post 662, quiet wrote:
One such thing: Hi Salsa, nice to be here, you’re town asf.
Is there any change in Sal's posting style that makes you scumread her, or did you vote her upon reviewing her posts and finding that they were not as towny as you originally believed?

I was originally in awe of Salsa’s formatting. Someday I will be that useful. Salsa was also putting in a lot of work day1, which I tend to like to a certain point.

I still need to go metadive to see if the defensiveness is NAI, but seeing it a couple times (and also given the fight with Flow that Prism helpfully reminded me of), I think that and a few other things added up in my head (I’m also thinking of how aware Salsa was of the town/scum wincon of “oh jeez we really need to not get another miselim today or we are in big trouble”, that’s not something I think most people say or being up or are deeply counting day2) to make me start feeling like a scumSalsa world could be a thing. It doesn’t help that so many people in this thread are towny as hell or capable of playing very pro-town, so my AoE is really small.

[quiet]

In this game we see Salsabil responding to a bad accusation (I agree that triple posting is a bad reason for a scumread). She asks the accuser to substantiate their vote and, when the reason is stated, calls it out as a "crappy reason" and asks them to argue rationally. All while including elements of mocking/dismissiveness/flippantness (whatever you want to call it) mixed into her language. Big difference from this game

Maybe I’m misreading this, but what you’re describing sounds kinda similar to what she’s done so far. Asking for reasons, asking for substantiation, dismissiveness, etc. I’ll go read them myself, but where are you seeing the differences in this game from what you’ve stated?

[quiet]

Prism + FaC: If Prism is indeed setting up town to fail in the way I'm thinking, then FaC couldn't be their partner; I lean town on both of them anyways

This is one hot take of a Prism read embedded in here. I was about to give a response about how my paranoia over that slot comes from a very different place, and it did not seem to me whatever that Prism was maneuvering town to fail, very much the opposite, the fear being that they were using +town maneuvering to try to get townread as scum.

And halfway through writing this, I noted that you townlean on both slots, which makes most of the first half of this post useless, but that’s also kinda another hot take, this time for your Fred townlean. Where’s that coming out of? I’m all on board the null train, but if you have town things I can use to sort them, I wanna hear it.

[quiet]

Seems like he is playing the LAMIST card (refer: 1129) at the moment. Day 1 and Day 2 playing style of his is different, specially after the esotericzoomer's flip.

Mm my first game I didn’t know they had a word for players like me. LAMIST. Yes. Sounds about right.

Afraid y’all have been getting mostly the worst of me this game. Hoping to step that up moving forward.

Finding out that I forgot one of my two strong townreads from day1 (Flow Trap the Chaos God, and Prism the Diplomat) is making me think I need to just reread everything again. I don’t have a ton of directed questions for you at this time, but will get back to you if something comes up.

And that catches me up! Floo, anything that might help me sort you? Previous games, etc?

[quiet]

Deescalating warfare between the nation states of Flow and Salsa, buttery smooth vocabulary, guiding town gently to be better with political promises and not military threats. You know. Diplomat stuff.

[quiet]

I mean they even just called out floo for being inflammatory and possibly killing relations with Salsa as a plausible scumread. They’re just very against war in a way that I appreciate (and think is towny) in the same way that I read your chaos as towny. Apparently my townreads get real mediocre titles this game.

[quiet]

I can't tell if quiet is town or if he's intentionally exploiting my self-perception/knowledge of the type of player I want to be. I hate this game sometimes.

Eh, maybe try and judge my other read on Flow Chart the Chaos God vs. try to search in my read of you. Easier to determine if I'm being genuine or exploitative when directed at someone else. Besides calling it out the first time (which I am rather proud about, good read past quiet), noticing it or pressing further on it now is probably NAI, as you've made it clear from your response that it was a good read/is how you want to play.

I'm just havin a good time, makin nicknames for my town slots, building up the energy to try and scumhunt in this most towny of games. I think I'm starting to come to the frustrating reality that if Fred isn't scum like I'm scared about, then someone that gives me townvibes is scum, which means I need to hunt better. Mafia hard. Still feel good about you and Flow though.

I've always seen being diplomatic as a scum tell

Eh, maybe it is in some cases, but specifically here past-quiet was thinking about how they were trying to build town cohesion, setting in to try and get two players to resolve differences to move the game forward. This is substantially different from being agreeable, or conflict-adverse, which is a scum tell. In fact, it's putting yourself into the spotlight, and possibly into conflict, when what seems to me to be the +EV scum play is to let town (or any two people) fight and cause chaos. This is something Prism further alludes to in regard to their floo read, where they note that floo seems to be trying to pick a fight with Salsa, how such fights are -EV for town, cause a distracting noise, and possibly setup a miselim. I liked floo's response a fair amount, and am still thinking about it, but this has been my lecture for why diplomatic =/= scummy thank you very much.

[quiet]

So if I live in a Prism, Flow Trap town world,
and if I stubbornly refuse to consider Fred as scum today,
I'm left with Salsa, Floo, Spartan. But I like Spartan.

Salsa/Floo scum theater today? I don't think so. Not sure what the motivation would be exactly.
Can't shake my townlean on Spartan just yet though.

I need to go see if there were any Spartan interactions with Floo or Salsa.

But any way this falls out, my FredHope is looking pretty bad. It's just so easy for me to feel so much better if Fred is on the table as scum, but Fred is just...so...low hanging fruit to me rn that it hurts.

[quiet]

Also I'm in the middle of writing some reads / elaborating on why I scumread Salsabil. It looks like an essay, and I won't be able to finish it until tomorrow.

Christ, I already TR this without having read said essay.

So what I'm coming to realize is that we have four very pro town slots.

Floo writes a 5 paragraph essay with MLA citations (anticipated publication date early 2021)
Prism gets genuinely hurt/concerned that I'm using their aspirations of being a diplomat to scumread them, generally tries to break up fights
FlowTrap makes not one but two partner charts with clearly considered and detailed takes for each, generally plays relaxed and in accordance with their chaos meta
Spartan posts their long, detailed, point by point responses with receipts

I'm sitting here trying to determine if any of these people make these same plays as scum. Spartan's seems the most replicable as scum on the surface, but honestly, metadive shows them even more verbose and detailed than usual, and I'm really struggling to see why scumSpartan would be working quite this hard. Today's posts have also been good. I like the slot.

But the exact scumworld of {Fred, Salsa} does not feel correct to me. That partnership doesn't make a ton of sense, and Fred makes my miselim spidey senses tingle. So one of these +town players is probably not town, but...how. Like I know I'm town, and I look at my posts like, all of these people are playing way better as town than I am. So that's unfortunate.

[quiet]

I don't think the very carefully curated posts from floo are as town as you think they are.

This is a good point.

They're still in my "oh god please be town" pile, and not my "deserving of a title town" pile as of right now.

[quiet]

Also, I didn't intend to set up a false Prism vs. Floo dynamic by saying they were two wagons i'd consider other than Salsa, so I'm sorry for that. Though I think it helps me sort, so maybe I'm not that sorry.

[quiet]

If you're a town, then nothing will ever make sense to you if you think that I'm one of the scums here cause I'm not. And it's applicable to all the townies (and only the townies) who are so sure that I'm scum here. I really don't know what to say to all of you right now so that you will believe me, my head is literally empty.

Sadly, taking you out of the scum pile makes this game even harder. Then my AoE is exactly Fred, and we’ve talked about Fred and why I’m resistant to voting there today.

So which of my townreads in Floo, Spartian, Prism, Flow Trap is scummy?

And don’t just say Floo for pushing you, unless that feels strongly like the correct answer.

Also good luck with your final! You got this!

[quiet]

It's you actually

Yes well unfortunately I know that solution doesn’t work, so I need an alternative one. I will agree that solving is a lot simpler if I am scum though.

Alas.

Pick a different one.

[quiet]

What do you think on the possibility on 1 of sal/fredrick and 1 of floo/flowtrap/prism being the scum partnership?
Do you think a floo/flow trap, floo/prism or flow trap/prism partnership would be viable?

The issue here is that I independently TR most of the cast of characters. It’s hurting my ego to think that I’m dead wrong on two of them together. Frankly, I’m trying to solve this same puzzle where I also include your name as the fourth counterpart to sal/Fred, but I don’t particularly like you with either of them (though salsa more than Fred I think).

I’m not going to re-assess flow baring a major change before tmmrw, and I feel even better about prism at this point. So that makes a lot of these partnerships hard for me to see.

Despite my TR, I feel like flow has the most partner equity of anyone on the list, as they flit around from person to person. I don’t see anyone that is ruled out from a flow partnership.

Floo/flow I could see, Floo/Fred makes sense. Floo also has a bit of partner equity with everyone that isn’t Salsa, as the hardbus today seems unnecessary. They picked out one of my comments (defensiveSalsa) and have been running with it; scum is in a good position rn from lack of day1 info and dead PR, no need to play defensive yet. (This is reductive I am aware).

Not sure who salsa is teamed with, actually. Have to admit, Salsa has been getting to me a bit over the last day or so, I’m having doubts about my scumread. I think I’m talking myself into a 1 scum of in Floo vs Salsa world, but I’ll wait for floo to chime in with their Salsa read and go from there.

[quiet]

Speak of the devil and they shall appear. Let’s go, floo! Excited to read this.

[quiet]

I need to think more about floo’s post before I try to sort based on it.

While you’re here, @floo which of my three other TRs in Spartian, Prism, Flow Trap do you think is the most likely to screw me over and why?

[quiet]

I don't think the very carefully curated posts from floo are as town as you think they are.

I'll save judgment on the essay until I see it but the initial reasoning I do not like at all, nor much of floo's play around the stronger slots.

Also, this is probably the strongest argument I’ve seen regarding your scum equity. Getting your response to this would help me sort you a great deal, I think. You can reference my post directly before this on wanting to TR you by virtue of comprehensive high effort posts for extra context.

[quiet]

Oh no .

UNVOTE:

[quiet]

Fred, I need you to sell me on your townyness. To do this, I think I need a few more details on your reads of the game. In a game full of +town players, I need to see something today that makes me feel like my gut read on you isn’t just paranoia talking.

Floo, I also am going to need some more reads on the rest of the room. Just top of your head. Bonus points for a response to the Prism quote I pulled.

As it stands, I think my vote has to be on one of those two now. I’m sad to see salsa go, though maybe I will have better luck sorting the new player. Sorry for anything I did to add to that dynamic.

[quiet]

Hi everyone,
I got some news yesterday morning that someone in my life had suddenly passed. I spent the day trying to sort out what I needed to do, and considered a site wide replace, but ultimately have decided to continue playing. I’m 3k miles away, and there’s not a lot I can do from here, and mafia is something I enjoy, which feels important at the moment.

I’m planning to spend some time tonight playing, but have not read anything since I got the news. Sorry for the trouble. Stay safe everyone.

[quiet]

I have the feeling that Spartan117 is deliberately misinterpreting my posts to scumread me. Why do you townread Spartan117?

It doesn't feel deliberate to me. I'll concede that you are eminently targetable if you are town, but frankly I'm not exactly sure why scum outs themselves this hard/pushes like crazy all day against you when you are town here. It might be a bad read (in the case where you are town), but it is a high visibility and high cost read for scum to take knowing that you are town.

[quiet]

Alright, here's where I'm at.

I buy fairy's entrance to the game wholeheartedly, as I did the same thing with reading safebet and trying to guess their alignment before replacing into the slot, and while they scumread me, I don't think I've played all that well this game so I can understand that, plus their catch up posts have felt very good to me with maybe the slight exception of the last (noting the cautiousness of floo's posts is close to echoing Prism's reads on the same subject, which is either very good or copying off the homework of A student in the room). Fairy is off the table today for me as well.

Fred popping in a bit is good, but I still feel like I don't have a good read on how they see the game other than the two slots they are suspicious of; I don't really understand why Fred is suspicious of them precisely, but I see this as a good sign. Still not interested in a Fred elim today.

Prism is locktown to me.

Flow Trap is town to me.

Lots of pressure on Floo right now. Fred, fairy, prism all willing to vote in that direction, making a decently compelling argument for it. No obvious counterwagons have appeared, game has stalled out a little. This is interesting.

Spartian has been missing the last little bit. Still hard for me to find a Spartian SR right now.

Vote order as of right this second is:
floo->spartian/fred->flow->fairy->prism

Which surprises me a little, because I'm really struggling to find people to elim where I don't feel scared about it coming up green, and I feel like I've let myself be convinced that floo is scummy by how much I think Prism is good town if town, and that I think they are town.

I really need to think about the spartian/fred thing. Also, I need to figure out who is scummy in the case of floo flipping green, and decide if that shifts any of my feelings about flipping them today.

[quiet]

hmm. i like some of floo's early reads; there's a depth of thought there that looks like he's contemplating the game. his posts seem VERY cautious though, like he's terrified of using the wrong word or saying the wrong thing. i could see that as conscientiousness rather than scum, though. that's about all i've got floo since there's not much content

I misread this post, and thought you were willing to vote floo today.
Don't know if this changes my reads at all, just didn't want to misrepresent your point in my above post.

[quiet]

No one has ever listened to me before in my life so idk how to argue for any point

Hey! I thought you had rather insightful reads embedded in your partner analysis posts. Or at least, reads that did exist.

Giving reads isn't always about convincing others that you are right; it's also a major metric that I use to determine if I think someone is town or not. Giving reads helps pin you down a little, speaks to motives, and is generally hard to fake in a sustained way. It doesn't matter in the end if you convince anyone that you are right about other people, it just helps us feel right about you.

Though it would be nice for some help in this game because, uh, basically all I see are towny faces all around me and it's stressing me out.

[quiet]

Also why in your order of scum to town, do you have fairy second, while you was voting her just a couple days ago? but now you have her more town above flow trap in your view, where is the progression with this? I had a town lean on sal myself but some of that was influenced by what appeared to be everyone going at sal while no one seemed to be defending her, and I wasn't able to decide who I would see as her scum buddy at the time for how things were playing out.

I’ll respond to your longer wall of questions in a sec, but I think this post pretty well encapsulates most of your concerns in the longer one.

A few days ago, I bought into the over-defensive Salsa as scum world. Getting to the point of replacing out? Then being replaced by someone who entered the game in exactly the manner I did as town, giving rather good reads as far as I can determine? My only concern is that Fairy’s read on flow trap felt a little sheepy, but I realized they were a little more reserved on that, so I’m tabling that suspicion for now.

Maybe I’m wrong to be protecting Fred right now. I’d be far more willing to vote them at the end of today than I was at the start of the day, especially when it felt like most of this town was willing to vote them from the start. Given the suicide that started this game, I wasn’t looking for another LHF situation. Given where I’m at now, where I challenge anyone in this game to give me a single solid “oh wow, clear scumslip from my perspective” kind of read, where most players are working hard to be as pro-town as possible, yourself included, I’m struggling hard to feel great about my reads. My problem is that Fredrick is mostly just Null. Do I think it’s more likely that I’m getting played by good scum, or that Fred is just lazy/lurkey scum? They’ve given me practically nothing to go off of, and I was REALLY hoping that by giving them some hope till the end of the day, one strong defender saying “no, let’s not elim there”, I might get some sort of response. The honey to your vinager. Unfortunately, I got basically nothing but an unexplained Floo and therefore partner Spartian read, which even after asking for clarification I have no further insight on other than it’s not utterly without merit, it seems somewhat plausible, but utterly unhelpful with sorting them.

As for flow trap, I’m town on them. I remain town on them. At the moment when I posted that list, however, Fairy sold me hook line and sinker on town Salsa. Additionally, as fond as I am of our resident chaos god, I’m rather put out by a few of the recent posts. I don’t love the “no one listens to me so why bother” angle.

So the reality is, someone is playing me. Prism looks really really bad if floo flips town. I’m trying to form some kind of associatives or something based on Fred, but the reality is if Fred flips town, I genuinely don’t know who we’re going to be blaming, or exactly who we find to elim tmmrw. That’s my vague rational behind that progression.

[quiet]

@Quiet who's flip do you think provides us with the most information?

Any of myself, floo, you who I currently see as the highest likelihood elims give more info than Fred atm. Frankly, anyone that people can’t handwave as “well, they were just not posting a lot and were playing kinda scummy, what was I supposed to do?”. I’m not sure who gives exactly the most mechanical info, but...idk tough question.

[quiet]

this is phenomenally townie imo. unvotes when there was surely momentum for a hammer with the intent to keep a potentially useful conversation going. noting this here as i think it's relevant with an Enchant town flip and to see if anyone else will pick up on it later on.

Hi fairy, loving your addition to the thread so far! Plan to respond to more of your stuff.

I’m not exactly positive that this is as towny as you are saying. I could get sold on that I think, but the other option is that it’s informed scum hopping off the wagon to look good. Frankly, at least from my perspective, I don’t think I’m a good enough player to hop off someone’s wagon after they think they get hammered and then claim mafia goon. From the moment that happened, town is going to eliminate them, especially after they say they want to just die. If floo is scum, does ending the day later actually hurt him in any way? The rest of that day was derailed by discussion about Enchant, do not very concerning.

That being said, you are right in the waiting for discussion is a +town reason to hop off the wagon. I really, really wanted to talk myself into locking Enchant as town, but over the course of the rest of the day, I couldn’t see a world where I would trust that read all the way to ElLo, and they were never, ever getting NKed after that stunt. I’d have to think more if floo is towny for that interaction.

It’s also one of the few interactions that felt real-time, as opposed to the general more careful pace.

Idk.

[quiet]

I'm scumreading floo based off of how he pushed Sal and how he reacted to what he got. This does kind of require the Salsabil slot to be town and have a town reaction but my whole point here is that it felt like floo was working backwards from a desired answer of Salsabil scum rather than coming to it organically. This is one of the few tells I put a lot of faith in and have a good track record on.

I think this is fairly compelling to me. The other thing that pinged me about floo was that his original case on Salsabill came after I raised a similar concern in a MUCH quieter way. It would be a good place for scum to jump on a wagon I’d started, and maybe where floo derived his “solution” from.

Also, on mobile so can’t quote, but I’m still waiting for a good floo explanation for his logic related to his metadive on Salsa. Floo made it seem as if the metadive showed a difference between Salsa’s play here and her play in town games, but from what I could tell of his description, and briefly checking his work, the play was very similar to town games. In the thread, he presented it as if there were major discrepancies, and I never got an explanation or clarification despite asking. This would speak to starting at an answer and working backwards.

I would summarize Floo’s play as high effort, detailed breakdown posts posing arguments, not as interactions with people really, with a couple rare exceptions, like floo jumping off the Enchant wagon, which I could absolutely see as +town. I think a number of people have asked floo to jump in and chat for a bit more causally, but it doesn’t really seem like something floo is interested in doing; I just don’t know how AI that is vs. a playstyle.

[quiet]

Not panic accusatory at all, are you scared your scum buddy has a couple votes on them?

At first these posts rubbed me the wrong way, but I think it might just be a perspective thing.

Spartian, do you feel like scum hard defends other scum in the thread with high frequency? Because in my experience, uh, they just don’t.

Maybe someone else can chime in and tell me that scum actually does hard defend in thread like this. I just struggle to see why in a scumQuiet world, scumPrism would defend here. Or in a scumFred world, scumQuiet starts the day saying yeah so I’m totally unwilling to vote my scumbuddy because they’re my scumbuddy thank you.

Better just to start a competing wagon and give good reasons for it, no? Those wagons do exist.

[quiet]

I really hope quiet is just letting me singlehandedly lose the game lmfao, would not be the first time

Oh I’m right here with you, there will be many hands losing this game if it goes that way.

And please post some speculation on what flip might mean for partners/legacy reads tonight ty

[quiet]

Floo! Also if you could give some context to your salsa metadive, and yes gut feel on fairy.

[quiet]

I don't recognize this slot and CTRL+F isn't helping me either, anyone can explain?

This is a Fairy alt account. Just treat it like Fairy.

[quiet]

They're likely to be more experienced than I thought/have a stronger scumgame but their posts have been fine and Salsabil is still unlikely imo.

Oh god please I don’t need that additional paranoia in my life.

Prism, the slots you would entertain today are...floo, Spartian, Fred? As things stand right this second.

[quiet]

So who is letting you drive a miselim in a townFloo world then?

FlowTrap? Fred (that’s not precisely fair). Like, who is watching this happen?

[quiet]

finding quiet continually positing town[enchant] theories but not willing to unvote or provide another name to be slightly obnoxious

On the topic of this + positing the locktown enchant or elim thing:

What other name was there day1? It’s practically RVS and enchant dominated the discussion from the moment I replaced in. From my perspective, and I stand by this, in that circumstance you have literally two options: locktown and don’t second guess as much as scum will try to get you to, or if you fear that you might waver on that, then elim with extreme prejudice. It’s a polarizing spot where they have to be either exactly scum or exactly town, and frankly, I wasn’t ready to gamble the rest of the game on them being town and never rethinking that read.

Who else would you have elimmed day1?

[quiet]

I also prefixed the locktown thing as a very likely bad idea.

I just don’t think I’m that confident in my reads to make that poker call, basically. Townlocking Enchant there would be an exploitative play. If I did that when faced with that same circumstance repeatedly, I end up losing a lot more than winning. I don’t know how/if I’m ever able to get away from an Enchant elim in that spot, but I really like to think that I was close to. Just, not close enough to take that gamble, not without a good target. Maybe I should have considered Fred there, but Fred was seen as a decent enchant partner, so at that point why not just elim enchant?

[quiet]

I'd say Spartan (whatever alignment) would be a major reason for my wagon. The player with the most elaborate and confident townread on me focuses on pushing Fredrick instead of fairy or Prism (who are more relevant to my situation).

This feels like a very very telling post after flips+kills tonight.

[quiet]

Chaos god, we summon you!

Looking particularly for your guidance in these most troubling times on the slots of Spartian and Floo.

Thoughts on the peanut gallery of fairy, myself, and Prism are also welcome.
A soulread on Fred works too if there’s some sort of ritual for that.

[quiet]

why on earth are the two options locktown or elim? i find these polarizing options baffling - if you're starting to suspect there's a world where enchant is town, why don't you unvote and look for those other names? you're umming and ahhing over this enchant wagon constantly but you never unvote. i just find the progression of [enchant could be locktown -> floo please hammer] in the space of a few minutes to be ... strange.

It was late in the day, I was up skiing that day if I recall correctly, and I literally do not think we EVER get away from a vote on someone who openclaimed mafia after thinking they got hammered. EZ, conftown with a cop ability that could have actually just determined it next day, ALSO decided to just yeet them. Scum doesn’t even need to be on that wagon.

Maybe you’re right and we could have tabled the slot for the day, but the slot was a ticking time bomb of a miselim to the point where they actively tried to get themselves elimmed. From my perspective, miselims get more and more harmful as it gets later in the game. I would love to see a world where I thought they could play towny in the future and shore up my read, but they were actively suicidal which means they could easily just throw more scummy stuff later, so for me it came down to just locking them one way or another and either removing the issue at the start, or deciding that no scum ever game throws exactly like that, and therefore they must just be a suicidal/illogical towny that is going to get carried until the endgame.

At a thousand posts, I gave up on trying to make the hard call and just wanted it to end, so we could move forward.

[quiet]

No, lurkey LHF Fred was not as scummy as “oh I’m hammered, GGs I was mafia goon” enchant. Fred was in large part considered scummy by proxy with Enchant. I bring them up now because elimming them yesterday simplifies today a bit/I think they are a bit of a coin flip which I hate doing day1 way less than I do day2.

[quiet]

@Floo do you find Prism to be scummy for their positioning towards you? Is that what you are suggesting?

@Prism I'm willing to vote floo today, I just don't feel great about it. But you don't feel great about Spartian. If we miss on floo, do you think we hit on Spartian tmmrw? Or do I need to think even harder.

Spartan117 (2): flow trap, Prism
quiet (1): Spartan117
floo (1): Fredrick A Campbell
fairyprincess69 (1): floo

Fred parked on floo is decently interesting. Fred is a good partner candidate for both Spartian and Floo frankly; I'm really, really hoping I'm right about my TR on fairy, I feel incredibly confident about my TR on Prism (especially given today's posting). Other reasonable partner is Flow Trap.

Flow trap has been parked on Spartan for a bit.
Feels really important to hear from Spartian today. I'm struggling to choose between those two slots at the moment.

[quiet]

*between floo and spartian

[quiet]

I'll be on till deadline, as well. Trying to formulate a better opinion on why Floo vs. Spartian.

Things that scare me about floo: Very cautious, deliberate, sometimes avoiding responses to harder questions. For all that care, suprisingly poor case vs. Salsa.
Things that scare me about spartian: Don't like their positioning towards me/Fred, I could see conspicuous absences letting town miselims, fall off today in posting/effort vs. strong opening out of the gate.

[quiet]

No clue lmfao but given that the alternative will probably me, yeah?

Who's your top vote for the day? Last I remember you wanted floo, do you want Spartan #1 now?

Don't think it's a secret that I hate flow trap's absence today but that's a tomorrow problem, no chance we vote him atm

Eh, you are locktown to me to the point that I never, ever vote you and will shout at anyone that tries. Prism wrongtown here seems way more likely to me than scumPrism and fuck if you are playing me yesterday with your pro town cohesion stuff and today with your wall of anxiety posts around proving your towngame philosophy to our intrepid moderator, then I'll forgive you in like six months.

Top vote today is spartianFloo cluster of I could see either. I'm leaning voting spartian by just a little bit because I hate the absence, and I happen to know how I flip, so them pushing me for mediocre reasons makes me like them less than Floo who I have no proof about at this stage.

My brain says there are two scum in {floo, spartian, fred, flow trap}, where fred and flow are just hard to vote up today.

Spartian seemed willing to vote up Fred today and pushed pretty hard at me for not being willing to do so, which makes a Spartian/Fred team hard to see. Fred is also voting floo right now. So I guess that suggests {Spartian, Flow Trap}, but flow has been voting Spartian from well before needing to bus. So that team really doesn't make a lot of sense either.

{Floo, flow} works fine though.

I hate partner analysis and think this one is terrible, but maybe that's a slight push in favor of voting floo. Or maybe scum is bussing and I'm being stupid here and none of today's votes mean much.

[quiet]

I have 1 completed game in newbie queue. I have played no other games on any other sites, I watched some decently high level Zoom mafia on youtube which which is what got me into wanting to play mafia (a lateral from my interest in incomplete information games and poker + game theory in general, but mostly as it relates to microfinance and sustainability stuff, which is wayyy outta scope for this kinda thing). So basically no experience prior to the last month or so playing form mafia, but a good amount of thinking about related topics.

On a semi-related note, in my first newbie game, someone tunnled me based on, in part, believing me to be misrepresenting my experience.

[quiet]

I don't see why a new person with a new perspective/views/reads, should remove the previous view you had on sal, they are both the same slot and alignment and I feel you are throwing everything out the window from your view on sal from some iniital good reads from fairy which I believe were from the beginning of the game?

This is a fair point, and maybe I should be more incredulous, but frankly, I wasn't all that married to my Salsa scumread in the first place, it was a fairly lightweight read, and Fairy's entrance and all posts thereafter have pinged me very town. The truth is, I can see a salsaOffendedTown world with as much frequency as I could see a salsaDefensiveScum world, and Fairy has sold me on the slot, at least for today.

Spartian, if you like consistency in behavior, then I'm assuming you don't hate the floo slot, who has been consistent with their reads. They're your big counterwagon, whats your read on them? Or is there a third option that you can sell me on?

[quiet]

I find it incredibily scummy you saying you "hate my absence" when I have been soo much more active in this game both d1 and 2 than fredrick and you seem adamant to protect him (he has been prodging and posting empty posts the vast majority of the game, I'll admit i think a couple of his posts in the last day or 2 whereever it was did look progressive but that does not wipe away the previous idk how many days of nothing), yet you are leaning a vote on me because of my absense, I have been busy with irl and only just had time to come online, also being that it is currently 1am here for me and the deadline is at 5am my time, why do you think my reason for pushing you is mediocre when you seem so keen to protect fredrick without providing any actual proof as to why you think they are town, show me their posts that show them as a town read for you.

If you have no proof of at this stage, can you please show me where you have proof of me being scum then if that is what you are insinuating as it certainly sounds like it. I know I am town and I read floo as town so I dont like either of us being the main targets of the wagons at all...

See this colors things for me a little bit. What I mean by your absence is the read that's been given by a few people now that you are willing to sit back and let other people get elimed without getting your hands dirty. That would be relevant if you wanted floo gone while maintaining a TR them.

But truth is, it would be pretty damn ballsy for scum to sit here and TR their counterwagon at this stage.

[quiet]

I've given my reason for not wanting a Fred vote early in the day. As I've now stated, like, 3 times, I hoped that taking them off the table would result in a better discussion today, I think they are an easy miselim, and I didn't want two LHF elims in 2 days. I think I've given completely +town reasons for that, and feel like you havn't given those reasons a fair shake. But that doesn't make you not town.
VOTE: Fredrick

But at this stage, I don't hate this. Fred did nothing with that time today, gave no real reads, Spartian hard defending floo here is fascinating, and Fred is my top partner for most teams.

If this wagon stays frozen, I'll move over to Floo, then Spartian, in that order.

Maybe the reason today is so damn hard is that neither floo or spartian are scum.
Or maybe it's scum v. scum, that would be a fascinating outcome. I'm real lost today.

[quiet]

{Fred, Flow Trap} is entirely viable.

[quiet]

Goddamn we’re on the same wave. This probably means something lolol

[quiet]

I think I've been talked out of Spartian/floo today. This means I want Fred or Flow Trap, and Flow Trap just confuses the hell out of me so idk about that one. It seems like fairy, myself, spartian, are all willing to vote Fred.

[quiet]

woah wasn't flow chart the chaos god one of your top townreads?

Yes, but my reads are TRASH and I'm throwing up my hands and flailing around at this point. And my favorite chaos god hasn't delivered any positive chaos today. Flow Chart is a good partner, and I'm paralyzed about Spartian and floo.

@Floo, Flow Trap vs. Fred go

[quiet]

not sure i believe you. you use a ton of forum mafia lingo that i don't think would be accumulated in such a short time frame. i'm not sure if this has any bearing on your alignment, but you're most assuredly a mafia progidy if you're being truthful about your experience

God dammit it's happening again ahaha go look at my profile, see the games I've been playing, and I do not think I'm in any way a prodigy, I just take these games decently seriously and did a fair amount of reading on the mafiascum wiki before I started playing (the wiki is how I found this form, actually; I wanted to learn about strategy after watching some games online).

Also you pick up a LOT of lingo playing a few games. It's mostly in context.

Reaction to flow reads next.

[quiet]

Wait flow those are just your...

oh god. of course they are.

Can you just state clearly in one sentence your take on each other person in the game? I'll do the same.

Fairy: Really, really towny analysis and posts. Really liked entrance to the game, echoed my own. In light of this, my read on Salsa seems less relevant; it's entirely plausible that overdefensiveSalsa is townSalsa, and Floo's extensive argument did not convince me.
Spartian: Sketches me the fuck out mostly by AoE and some singleminded suspicions, but their reaction to my suspicion was decently towny to me, towny enough to make me back off today. Their unwillingness to push Floo makes me like them a whole lot more.
Prism: Locktown
Flow Trap: Chaos, man, you are pure chaos. I read it as towny for most of this game, but it didn't get anywhere today and that same chaos makes you a really good scum partner for basically anyone, especially in a thread where I TR like everyone.
Floo: Salsa scumread was light, careful play could be scummy, but Spartian strong TR and the well argued points they have made make me doubt a bit. This slot also sketches me the fuck out, and is where I vote if Fred goes nowhere.
Fred: Just...a null slot that at this point has a >50% chance of flipping scum from my perspective as very few combos make sense to me out of {flow, floo, spartian} that don't include Fred. My vote is here.

[quiet]

Eh Prism, I've been legitimately considering floo all day. I don't feel like you've been running this town, I just think you ARE town. I'm sure this feeds into the "quiet is trying to flatter prism" narrative, but I think we have enough opinionated voices in here that we're not sheeping or getting pushed around by you. You're all good.

Floo is my first choice if Fred goes nowhere.

[quiet]

Why is he null after 2 in game days of content, is it because there isnt any content from him after 2 in game days? can this truly make him null?

Yes, I really do think this makes him null. I'm one full game in, and I've already been burned by lurking town more than once. It is entirely possible. I am reading him based on AoE not lack of content.

[quiet]

Area of Effect/Elimination, basically just thinking about possible scum combinations and what it could be given the people I TR, and given that I feel strongly that prism, fairy are tr, I know I am, that limits the area of my search a great deal.

Fred makes sense to me because of how many people I TR, and how of the remaining group, {floo, flow, spartian, fred}, most combinations don't really work without Fred being scum.

Maybe that's not a real term, sorry.

[quiet]

Will sorting fred be any easier tmmrw either?

[quiet]

Eh, i'm here and could vote flow trap. I don't love much of anything rn. If Spartian/floo do check back in, I could vote there.

[quiet]

people are split down the middle on if fred or flow are harder to read tmmrw it seems.

[quiet]

I feel like I'm playing absolutely terribly rn

[quiet]

spartian hates it though, and I think it's vaguely feasible we sort floo tmmrw??

fred/flow I dont see more time sorting.

[quiet]

ahahahhaha oh my god i'm going to cry

well i did say i'd be willing to do it.

[quiet]

nah when someone is hammered someone is hammered. I don't think anyone is hammered though

[quiet]

Also I just realized that floo and spartian are both TOWNREADING EACH OTHER and DIDN'T WANT TO VOTE THE COUNTERWAGONS EACH OTHER WERE ON and this breaks my brain a little (though floo did this a lil late when there was already the feasable counterwagon of fredrick)

so uh, that's just something that's going to make me paranoid

[quiet]

oh nevermind I thought fairy was on Fredrick and we just went to E-2. Thank christ that didn't happen.

So it's
Fred E-1
floo E-2
flow E-3
quiet E-3

[quiet]

@spartian prism will hammer Fred if there's no other option.

[quiet]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

god I knew I townread you for a reason

[quiet]

is it stupid of me to kinda tr Spartian for being as screwed up over the end of the day as I feel?

cause I kinda do.

[quiet]

ahaha please make sense of the kill from my perspective as scum, cause I don't understand it whatsoever.

I think doc outs late in day if at all. or if someone intends to vote. I want data first.

[quiet]

I actually typed up 7+ pages of content during the night, which I am going to touch up since I was tired and therefore said things like: "had a right to be annoyed was, but they could be annoyed as that as mafia too"

well, that's a hell of a lot more work than I did. My overnight theory was that Prism, me, fairy are alive and I go full accusation mode vs. fairy trying to pocket the two of us into a win. But uh, that obviously didn't pan out, and I'm trying to just not doubt my Prism TR.

@spartian, how are you feeling about Fred flip? Thoughts, reactions?

[quiet]

lowkey fine with a draft version and a final version, i'd get a kick out of seeing the differences. But that's asking quite a bit, idk if I'd be cool with posting something long without looking over it to make sure I didn't, like, misspell half the words

[quiet]

Before I explain why I think it does make sense from certain perspectives, why doesn't it make sense to you?

I'm still thinking about it. My first impression was "why not Prism?", which I could see implicating me. That + recent discussion leads to doctor WIFOM? I was about to raise the hell that could be doctor CCs or the very real possibility of no doctor and a doc fakeclaim, but I don't want to deal with that atm. That's how I lost my first newbie.

[quiet]

Not quite sure what you're saying here-Is this saying that, as town, you were going to push fairy but expect the other two players/me to be the actual scumteam playing you off of each other?

Yep, my pet overnight theory was that if you, fairy, and me were alive tomorrow, fairy was scum. I was relatively sure you were the shot, and was trying to figure out reasons why you would be alive. I know I'm good, so I thought it would have to be fairy who wanted that outcome.

But fairy is dead. so that theory is obviously real bad.

[quiet]

*alive today, you get the idea.

Positives of doc claim: if CC, it polarizes two players as one scum, one town. If no CC, it gives us some kind of information about something. Sort of forces a shot.
Negatives of doc claim: If real, doc dies tonight (almost certainly). Easy to fake. Easy to turn real confusing. Nothing guaranteed.

I think I trend towards don't claim and if you do exist just get real lucky.

[quiet]

Prism, in what world do I get shot? Spartian, flow think I'm scum, I don't know what floo thinks but I think it's neutral at best, and you're openly concerned about me and have been for ages. Most damning, though it was Spartian's strong SR in part that drove my decision of floo vs. fred or flow, I was still the first on the Fred miselim wagon.

I just couldn't make a decent play yesterday it seems. Why would I get killed? I feel like I look terrible rn.

Am I doing the thing where somehow people TR me despite the fact that I feel like people SR me like crazy? Spartian SRed me at the start of the day yesterday for thinking people SRed me from day1 despite the fact that they found me towny after that. Is that about to happen again?

[quiet]

Issue is basically that scum can fakeclaim doctor adaptively.
Doctor exists and doesn't claim. Scum claims doctor on getting voted. Two buckets to vote in.
Doctor doesn't exist. Scum exclusively claims it on getting voted, likely buys themselves an extra day in Elo.
The strength is in them not claiming it, or in us policyvoting an E-1 doctor claim: This gives us a chance at the doctor making it to three way, which is when the EV pays off.

Doesn't it require 3 to elim today?

So any misvote is an instaloss from a quickhammer. Which means no town can vote on town, or the game is immediatly over; I'm 100% policyvoting any E-1 claim, because if they were inno, they'd already be dead.

or am I missing something critical there

[quiet]

Neutral now

yeah, but last night's scum wouldn't know that.

[quiet]

We always shoot here

Forces a shot as in, an honest claimed doctor will nearly always force scum to shoot them, which deprives scum of setting up ElLo the way they might optimally want to.

I'll table doc discussion for now.

[quiet]

"openly concerned about me" is true but willfully misses the point that I would likely shut down any potential push on you. Fairy also wanted flow trap and wasn't sold floo was town. Spartan wanted you EoD but that 1v1 is really the only thing to bet on with you alive.

This is fair; Maybe I need to shift my perspective around a bit.
Well, Spartian lobbied hard to keep Floo alive and Fred voted. I was first on the Fred wagon. I want to hear from Spartian about where they are at rn.

[quiet]

Didn't make sense = I didn't think it would happen and hadn't considered it a possibility. Maybe I should have. I was getting really suspicious about fairy overnight. Seeing fairy shot didn't make a lot of sense to me.

[quiet]

*a high frequency possibility.

Does anyone in this thread scumread Prism for any reason?

[quiet]

@flow release anything you have when you have it.

Spartian and floo are scaring me the most today, given the Spartian fredrick push, how loud spartian was vs. a floo elim, and me struggling to shake the flow chart tr. I want to see this long document.

Prism, I've locked you as town and I don't think I'm capable of folding on that position without some SERIOUS pressure or someone beating me over the head with my own stupidity until I see the light. As a result, I'm trying to determine between the three of {spartian, floo, flow trap}, who the safest partner to both is. You pushing floo yesterday is a somewhat good sign, as I'm taking that info as clean. That's where my head is at.

[quiet]

Inviting others to re-evaluate you is both a way to evaluate them, and a last ditch effort to unpocket me.

If you are capable of playing this indignant, bringing in the moderator as a weapon in your crusade to be a better town, generally play in a +town cohesion way, etc, etc, as scum, then I lost, I think. I just buy it. Fairy did too. I really, really want to invite anyone to push me off that position though, as I think it would be a productive conversation that would help me sort.

Otherwise, if the thread all thinks (scum also maintain) that you are town, then uh, I guess we're all working to convince you where to vote.

[quiet]

The frustrating thing about this game is that I could easily see spartian or floo as town, too. But I guess I'm staking the game that there's two within {spartian, flow trap, floo}, and I just have to determine which 2 are best.

@flow chart, do you think {floo, spartian} is a viable team?

[quiet]

To Spartan/Quiet who would you go for in the case of Prism/Floo

I’d vote Floo. I’m still not sure why Spartian thinks they’re town exactly. I was willing to entertain it at the end of the day yesterday, but it’s today and I’m going to need quite a bit from floo to not want to vote them today.

[quiet]

To Spartan/Quiet who would you go for in the case of Prism/Floo

If I had to pick between the two of them it would be Prism but its not an easy choice.

Prism, I've locked you as town and I don't think I'm capable of folding on that position without some SERIOUS pressure or someone beating me over the head with my own stupidity until I see the light. As a result, I'm trying to determine between the three of {spartian, floo, flow trap}, who the safest partner to both is. You pushing floo yesterday is a somewhat good sign, as I'm taking that info as clean. That's where my head is at.

Why are you so locktown on their slot? why do you require pressure from others to change your reads? it just come across as sus when your reads cant organically evolve and you just lock a read on someone and park it there because it feels safe.

I don’t feel safe even remotely. I’ve given my prism read like, 5 times at this stage. If I’m getting played, it’s going to take a lot to unpocket me, I’m trying to be up front with that. For me, the solve is going to be in {flow, floo, spartian} 80%+ of the time. And there is absolutely garenteed to be one scum in that group of three.

So I’m not considering any vote outside of those three today. I’m not going to find Prism today. It’s not going to happen. If I’m infinitely pocketed, then there’s very little I can do about that today. I will absolutely be reconsidering tmmrw if the two of us are alive and we don’t miselim today. I read the +town concern and self consciousness and talking about the mod and trying to fix fights and a number of other related little details as too towny for me to vote for them.

So I’m stuck hunting in those three. Floo has been the most careful in his play. Flow chart is a chaos daemon and I’m trying to sort that out. You...feel towny, but also pushed Fred and are pushing me and protected floo and I’m trying to sort all that out.

[quiet]

Also my god I’m actually buying this from Flow Trap and I just

Hey floo, please tell me how you are town here, and give me a case on two people.

[quiet]

Am I just totally wrong on Prism??

But seriously if so, why does Prism kill Fairy there? I don't see that.

[quiet]

No, I'm holding the line on my Prism TR today. My PoE is {spartan, flow trap, floo}, where it probably goes vote floo > spartan/flow trap at this exact moment.

[quiet]

In contrast you're hard townreading floo, you/flow trap have me as a lukewarm townlean last I checked, and both of you are still alive

This.
Spartian, is there a chance that town!You is alive to continue defending floo here?

Though I wonder why they wouldn't shoot Prism in that case, who has by far the strongest floo SR, other than doctor WIFOM or because they think that shot makes it obvious. Still, seems worth discussing.

[quiet]

Wrote up a long post and phone died. Sigh. Take 2.
I am living in a world where a random vote in {floo, flow trap, spartan} hits 66% of the time. As I've previously stated, I will not be considering voting outside of these three today.
So I'm going to provide cases on all three, and probably ask a few questions of each. I'll do a quick summery of where I'm at now, which is pre doing deep dives, but post doing some thinking on the slots.

@Spartan, accepting a world where both you and floo are town means accepting a world where Prism or I am not. I can't accept that today. If you are 100% positive ride or die that floo is not the vote, then you'd better have an airtight case on flow trap, because I am not going to be finding a vote for Prism today. I'd consider reconsidering the read tmmrw, but frankly, I really think everyone else should take a look at Prism's play this game, especially surrounding their interactions with the mod, frustration with pushing town, addressing flow trap and salsa beef, addressing other conflicts, calling me out for trying to buddy them by flirting with their towngame, etc, etc, and try to convince me that all of that, every bit of it, is scum theater. Behind the scenes, I've reviewed some of their unlinked meta, not the stuff that Prism provided, even the game they explicitly said was not super indicitive of how they play as they had personality classes with the playerlist, and I am fully on board. I tried today to give someone, ANYONE, the chance to step forward with a Prism SR, did some hemming and hawing and "oh god am I pocketed? oh my god" kind of posts, and no one bit. No one is willing to SR Prism. I was hoping someone would, but frankly, I think the game is now operating on the assumption that Prism is town for today. This means I have to consider either you or floo scum, one or the other. So besides them making good points (their strongest points this game have been on Salsa and on Fredrick, both of whom flipped town), I have concerns there.

I find myself feeling actually bad and guilty out of game when I SR you. Something about the way you post feels like indignant and slighted town, and you continuously make me question why I'm SRing you, when the reality is we have been on the oposite side of our reads for most of the game, the test that was voting Fred with you flipped negative, and I strongly, strongly TR Prism. The only other scumcase I have on you is not liking the way you have done this:

Why are you not willing to vote Fredrick? are you protecting him or something? It's very odd to me how you would rather vote Floo than vote Fredrick, I feel like while Floo hasnt posted the quantity of the rest their posts have had a lot of content and reads and have overall provided towards the town, while fredrick has yet in my eyes to provide a meaningful post, like this post of yours just gives me sus vibes that you can see your scum partner is struggling and youre trying to help guide him.

re: 1319 I guess I can see why you scumread quiet but this seems to be panic accusatory? Like that went a long way from grandstanding about how Frederick isn't town at all to voting quiet for either defending a scumbuddy or trying to get it voted in 5 way.

Not panic accusatory at all, are you scared your scum buddy has a couple votes on them? I don't know the solution to this puzzle I am trying to view all possible scenarios that make sense to me, a Prism/(Sal/Fairy) is also included in that in my view. floo is a stronger town read for me atm and how you are going at them defending a potential Sal teamate (or using the sal V floo situation) looks a bit opportunistic, I don't see a floo/Prism team at all, my concern is on the possibility it is TvT and we have an imposter team of two from Quiet/Fredrick/FlowTrap/Fairy hmm I feel like I'm the opposite of Quiet where I'm sussing everyone where he town reads everyone.

You tend to immediately jump to "oh, are you defending your scumbuddy here?" whenever someone doubts a SR of yours, but want us not to do the same of the floo/Fred situation of yesterday. I didn't want to vote Fred yesterday, especially not early in the day, because LHF slots are easy, blameless miselims. I can't even really hold you accountable for it today. However, in the posts right around here, you give me the same kind of reason why I struggle/feel guilty SRing you: you completely seem like you are genuinely interacting with and trying to solve the game. Problem is, looking at Flow Chart's wall posts, or even Floo's thoughtful, careful, infrequent posts, you can see the same thing.

Your SR of me isn't even bad. I'm too agreeable, I TR everyone where you SR everyone, TRing everyone is a scummy thing because scum struggle to create good SRs. But new town struggles with it too. Especially in a game with such little info, which was exactly what we had yesterday. My one "mmmm maybe this is strange" feeling on Salsa got blown up when floo gave a really poor followup post on the slot that I read as scummy, taking my read on their emotional reactions and turning it into something I couldn't believe any further, especially in the context of their replacement. This is something that I and Prism both discussed during day2. That's where my floo SR came from, that they jumped into the thread, took something of mine (so I would look bad if it was wrong and so their potential wagon would already have a supporter), made a careful, logical point about it, started a fight, and most especially cited a game saying "look they did all these things way differerent and they were Town in this game, must be scum" when looking into the game, they were playing EXACTLY the same in that towngame as they were in this one, but otherwise stayed out of the thread. Finally, my strong TR on Prism makes the floo SR read more likely, as I believe they are town and they sus floo. I was willing to give them an additional chance given how strong your TR was, and because I thought leaving it till tmmrw would help me sort you; Fred vs. you also seemed plausible. That's how I ended up off floo yesterday. I wasn't as convinced then as I was now that their actions were scummy, but now, I'm decently convinced.

I want to hear your side of that story, and you to help me understand what Floo has done this game besides carefully step in, give good, clean points, then fade back away. From where I'm standing, both you and floo cannot be town. If there is some other world, besides me being scum, you want to push forward, let me know.

[quiet]

@Flow trap, I have a little less to say to you at the moment. First off, I don't think you need to continue going post by post through the thread, especially over day1, and explain your reads at every point. It's NAI to me. I recognize that you were not being chaotic for the sake of being chaotic, and I am taking on face value what you are saying about what your state of mind was at every given point in the game. I'm less interested in your progression there than I am on your positioning and the positioning of others in the thread on day2 and day3, as that feels like there's a lot more value and weight.

You join {spartian, floo, yourself} in my PoE by nature of today's infinite TR of Prism. I'd also like you to comment on if you think Prism is town or not, or at least, town enough that you wouldn't consider voting them today. Because of the way you have played, it's easy enough for me to imagine you with any combination of those two. I plan to do a full iso and re-read on your slot (though you have helpfully been doing some of that for me by virtue of re-reading your wall posts! ty!), but because you have flipped around quite a bit, because you bluff reads and bluff responses sometimes, I feel like you could easily defend most positions and cover for yourself as scum. You aren't particularly suspicions to me, other than our dear departed Fairy's death and something something framed something something, but there's nothing screaming town other than my bias that someone playing as relaxed, chaotic, and fun as you tends to be town more often than scum, and that those partner tables are hard excessive work, and doing it once was probably sufficient if it was a play; I've always thought you had reads, you've always been giving them, it's just hard for me to sort you out of the PoE.

So, given that in my universe if you are town, {spartian and floo} are nearly always scum, do you think that is viable? do you have a preference between the two? Is there anything you need to sort me, as you've been suspicious of me today a bit, and previously too.

[quiet]

@floo, I've got the least for you.

I would really like to hear a towncase for yourself, frankly, a review of your play this game, of your posted suspicions, and how they've panned out. Additionally, I would like a scumcase/or just read, whatever, on both Spartian and Flow Trap in the same style as the previous ones you have given. Actually, I'll take anything from you.

Some of my SRs on your play are buried in my post to Spartian, which kinda says something, that I'm expecting more of a dialoge about your slot with spartian than I do with you yourself. I think you've been an asset to the game, a fun player to play with, but if you are town here, I am really, really going to need you to step up for the rest of ELO, because if I lose this game because of 3 separate LHFish players, I'm gonna be fairly frustrated, especially given how high effort so many other people have played this game. My biggest concerns are that from what I recall, and I'll confirm this then post more details later, your two pushes have been vs. Fredrick and vs. Salsa, and as Prism pointed out in a compelling way, the Salsa one felt like you were trying to prove scummyness vs. trying to read them. It would be very challenging for me to differenciate your play as is from scum play. Please help me do so, and again, the best way is by providing good reads on {flow trap, spartian}. If you end up thinking they're not both scummy, that's fine, I'm the only one with the info on me and the strong tr on Prism at the moment to isolate to those three, but reading those would help.

[quiet]

Prism, I've got the least to say to you right now. My paranoia today was mostly fishing to try to see if anyone would jump on board and push at you, which didn't happen. I will try and sort you again tomorrow if you are still alive for some strange impossible reason that I'm sure could exist, but for the same reason I initially TRed you and you got sus of me because it felt like I was using your playstyle against you or the read was too good or whatever exactly it is (which my dumbass somehow forgot about at the start of day2), I TR you now-faking town cohesion seems real challenging and not +ev as scum, and you've been playing for that the whole game. I am trying to divorce my reads from my TR of you and therefore trust of what you say (I.e. floo read), and will do my best to hunt independent of your takes. If there's something I can do to sort myself better, lmk, but idk what exactly that could be.

[quiet]

None of these are really cases. I've got 6 days to do those, but I wanted to give initial thoughts first. As you can tell, I've thought more about the spartian slot than pretty much any other, as flow trap is a trap to think about, stare too long into the warp and lose your mind to chaos type vibe, and floo has less content to read and is mostly relevant to understanding spartian imo. Sorting out the spartian/floo interactions feels like it could seriously help solve the game, and that's where my thoughts have been, as reflected in the amount I have for each person. That's where I'm at for now.

[quiet]

Day 1 is the foundation, so I basically have to start there or else I won't be able to provide as solid reasoning when I hit the conclusion

I get this, but also, understand that as scum, you could play the way you did then use this chance to clarify your reads to create some kind of narrative.
It seems like a stupidly high effort strategy and I struggle to believe it, but like, it does exist, and makes it hard to TR this.

If this is your process, do your process and come to your conclusions, but at the end of the day, I need help sorting within {you, floo, spartian} right now. Whatever that conclusion is, I hope it addresses those slots in particular.

[quiet]

Also day1 was chaos lowkey and got derailed by Enchant, but maybe I'm writing it off too much and need to reconsider.

[quiet]

I'm suddenly feeling uneasy about Prism for being sometimes nice and sometimes cold.

You're hot and you're cold, you're yes and you're no....we fight, we make up, we NK, we break up, as the poets say. A song clearly intended for the mafia universe.

Can you elaborate what you mean on this though? I recall hot vs. cold off the top of my head or really see it in those posts, but I'm not doubting that it exists, I probably just read it differently.

[quiet]

*I don't recall

[quiet]

I just thought I would give a quick mention to 720-725 no comments on it.

Huh, I kinda standby what I said here. I'm still decently sad about how that went down.

Things like this is how "too scummy to be a scum" become a thing. Enchant fakeslipping goon and self voting to infinity is just...you can't get away from voting it, because most of the time it's going to flip mafia, but christ.

Enchant, I hope you are still reading this thread. Maybe I'll ping you after the game if that's allowed, and try to convince you that committing suicide because you think you are SRed and bad at being town or whatever the exact methodology behind that decision is even more harmful than a later miselim. We miselimed Fred next on also very light reasons, but scum had to at least work for that one. I was able to pull nothing out of the day1 votes on you, nor the positioning of anyone else really. Maybe floo pulling back is interesting? But EZ just being tunnel convinced it was scum and even being annoyed at me for still asking questions/delaying as town is a good example of how you really can't read much of anything from that. And now I'm just talking to a corpse so this is probably wasted words.

[quiet]

Or maybe Enchant is setting up to be absolutely terrifying and unreadable in the future. Who knows. Godspeed, Enchant.

It's all good Flow. Keep on trucking. I'll check back in and review some of what you said in parts 1 and 2 as well. Feels strangely like a group thread readalong and book discussion or something.

[quiet]

Very towny but in the wise words of Skybep: "Always be suspicious of players who are "cleared" but not eaten"

yep, if they manage to be alive tomorrow and we don't lose tomorrow uh....i'll have many questions.

Fairy was a reasonableish kill tonight, doctor wifom (though gut feeling says no doc) and reasonably townread, has some nice properties of framing you messing with prism possibly targeting a few others and TRed Prism.

[quiet]

I've come around on a fairy nk making sense from various perspectives.

[quiet]

please don't ask me what perspectives those are specifically I'm not that smart

[quiet]

Oh agree it's def a good NK, just fairy is reasonable enough that I'm not yet questioning my prism TR, and I think there are some better NKs for prism than Fairy. Frankly, with fairy + me alive, I think Prism wins today. I would be more likely to find a fairy vote than a prism vote by a wide margin in that circumstance.

[quiet]

that is a good question. In a Prism, quiet, flow trap town world, floo + spartian kill fairy cause doctor, they think prism is sus for not dying, they think killing prism would get floo voted, and thats about the only other reasons I can think of. I'd have to review fairy's play to see if they were suspicious within those two slots. Fairy was explicitly not suspicious of floo.

[quiet]

the simpler reason would be that you are scum, but yknow, i'm engaging in good faith here, and your question is totally valid from your perspective as town which I do like.

[quiet]

also fairy did TR prism. again, one of my key questions today is...uh, does everyone TR prism? I want that confirmed (not that they are town, just that everyone TRs them).

You being more suspicious makes some degree of sense given your PoE.

[quiet]

You say it was mostly fishing. This makes sense but you went pretty far out of your way to sell it w/ the multi posts which is...admirable? Or a post-facto explanation? Wack.

eh, my fear and anxiety is real. but that's a life thing, not a game thing. Not all that hard to just turn off my filters and let that internal voice post a bit. I wish I was the kind of player that just, like, had that incredible confidence to not be constantly questioning and doubting what I consider to be a really strong townread, but i've still got that voice in my head telling me I'm going to get rolled, that I'm missing something obvious, that I'm just way in the pocket.

It felt really important (and still does, though less so than it would have if I'd just let it be for a bit) to see if anyone would jump on the opportunity to push at you, if that was a part of the angle from keeping you alive. It didn't happen, which makes keeping you alive from scum perspective even more interesting. Something something fairy NK something.

In other news, most of your reads on me have been about like this; "it could be town! or real talented scum. hrm". Something to deal with tmmrw if we both make it there.

[quiet]

if Spartan is town I am left alive 100% of the time.

you were explicitly suspicious of spartian yesterday?

Remind me where this take is coming from

[quiet]

Interesting that the Mafia team here prefers to kill widely townread players instead of aggressive posters. That suggests that the scum have the confidence, determination, and perceived skill to attack and defend well in LYLO or other high-stakes situations. Perhaps because they are the aggressive players themselves.

oh my god this goddamn game, thanks I hate it

welcome back, good to have you here, from flips alone and just straight gut feel, no other catch up, no re-reading, {flow trap, spartian}, choose one or both as scum.

[quiet]

You're misreading this, it's not that I'm likely to vote Spartan, it's that Spartan is likely to vote me over floo.

ah, thank you, the opposite angle of what I was thinking. okay, sensible enough.

[quiet]

also @floo isn't killing widely TRed players...like...how you win most of the time as scum?

also was EZ super widely townread?

[quiet]

In post 1768, Prism wrote:
You're misreading this, it's not that I'm likely to vote Spartan, it's that Spartan is likely to vote me over floo.
ah, thank you, the opposite angle of what I was thinking. okay, sensible enough.

See here's the thing about that, though, is I'd expect them to be pushing you at this point if that was the case. Like, I'd expect the floo vs. Prism thing to have emerged at this point, and it really hasn't. Is my intuition way off there?

[quiet]

Like in a townSpartian world where they're trying to get spartian to vote you, doesn't someone, anyone, jump on board my paranoia trip?

We got floo coming in with the plausable shade, but that feels soft compared to what could have happened earlier today to support townSpartian's suspicion on you, to fuel the fire of a floo vs Prism spartian re-enact 300 defend floo from an army of Prisms type situation.

[quiet]

I was indulging in the townSpartan world for the context of determining you not getting killed. I think I've decided that a floo/flow trap team trying to set up today for a spartan misvote on you to win doesn't really seem to fit, because if that was indeed the case, there's no reason my bout of paranoia wouldn't have been used as additional evidence to try to get spartan to vote that way. Floo did sort of do that, but honestly, I do think that flow trap could have gotten away with pushing on my paranoia more if the goal of not killing you was to get spartan to vote there. I don't particularly think that setting up spartian to miselim you was the purpose of the night kill, I guess, is my conclusion from this; for that particular combo, seems easier just to think it would be to get a towny, doc dodging, perspective flow trap voter out of the way.

[quiet]

I do wonder if there's any evidence of any kind of positioning in today's posts, however.

For me, the highest value interactions/associatives that I feel will help me sort best are between spartian and floo, which we still havn't really gotten.

@floo if you are still reading, popping in to give even flash impressions of spartian would be really pro town to me right now, and help get my brain working.

[quiet]

mmmm volcanos are the best. I recently found something I wrote when I was 5 that said when I grew up, I wanted to study volcanos for a living, and possibly have a house and kids. But the volcanos was clearly the important bit. Maybe I should get back to that.

@prism when you pick up, I'd be curious for your assessment on a spartan/floo team. It seems decently in play to me, I do think it's feasable that Spartan TRs a scumbuddy, especially as they have accused both me and you of doing the same.

I'm not necessarily trying to solve the game today, I'm just hunting within those three, and associatives I think are a viable reason to find a vote. At the end of today, I want my vote to be on the person I both think is most likely to be a scum, and a part of that is viable partner equity, though frankly, flow trap's existence makes partner equity a challenging thing as flow trap can get with anyone and not break my brain.

@floo, @spartian, hope things are going well. Still trying to sort you two, still feeling decently scummy on you both, and am interested in why it would be dumb of me to suspect you two as partners.

@flow trap, do you like volcanos? Am I being dumb to consider those two as partners?