Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[floo]

VOTE: Enchant

[floo]

VOTE: flow trap

This is at least a partially serious vote. Don't want to discuss why right now.

[floo]

[floo]

So how can you have a serious vote of 3 people haven't even checked in?
...
OMGUS?

"..." not part of original post.

With the game becoming more serious, I can explain my motives. I switched my RVS vote from Enchant to flow trap because I wanted to see where a conversation would go. flow trap's posting style is lighthearted with a lot of small talk and interactions with other player, as one of the most active users so far (might be the most active in terms of post count). I stated my vote was "partially serious" (40) to avoid seeming suspicious from an apparent OMGUS (as you guessed) and a second (apparently) random vote. I am explaining my intentions now because I would rather have flow trap discuss his/her gameplay or opinions than post joke reactions.

[floo]

I'm leaning town on safe, floo and Spartan

Can you share the reasons?

Floo seems typical chaotic town and Spartan seems genuine here

What about safebet222?

[floo]

I'm leaning town on safe, floo and Spartan

You townread three people who have voted you. I started the wagon. safebet made a point of putting you a step away from death. Spartan voted you for no stated reason other than "pressure" (61). In particular, I find the Spartan townread strange because he has posted only three times, but you find him "genuine" (121). Meanwhile, you are scumreading esotericzoomer (implied in 114), who is the person who has questioned the votes on you a lot while staying away from an explicit townread. Do you think the wagon on you has a legitimate or beneficial purpose?

[floo]

Found this sus to even insinuate it is somewhat serious a vote this early on with such little discussion, unless ofc this is to obtain a reaction and read responses.

Right, as I explained I said it was "partially serious" to avoid seeming scummy / too random.

[floo]

So what were you going to do? Twiddle your thumbs until sxum raise their hand and say, "Its me!"

What are you gonna do, risk having potential harmful effects on town and make yourself look like a wolf?
There's plenty of different ways to reaction test, putting someone on e-1 doesn't achieve anything.

flow trap reacted quite a bit. If those reactions weren't meaningful, the wagon still allowed flow trap to produce reads related to the wagon (121).

[floo]

You townread three people who have voted you.

I started the wagon. safebet made a point of putting you a step away from death.

Spartan voted you for no stated reason other than "pressure"

(61). In particular, I find the Spartan townread strange

because he has posted only three times

, but you find him "genuine" (121). Meanwhile, you are scumreading esotericzoomer (implied in 114),

who is the person who has questioned the votes on you a lot

while staying away from an explicit townread. Do you think the wagon on you has a legitimate or beneficial purpose?

I fail to see the relevance

This is a valid reason

The "I'm so confused" card is not one I find town and also it felt like a pocket attempt

To answer your question, yes; pressure is a valid reason and it has clearly benefited us as it was a good means for a discussion

Townreading three people who have voted you might seem like trying to court favor with them to get them to unvote you.

[floo]

Just finished reading the thread up to now.

Some players have found my vote switch to flow trap suspicious because I didn't want to attract suspicion (Enchant in 150 comes to mind). If I don't want to be voted out, I don't see why I shouldn't take the effort not to seem overly scummy.

Will post other thoughts soon.

[floo]

Hello. This is my first game on this site.

How to play as Mafia Goon? What it do?

Enchant has played Newbie 2046 before according to Sal (44); it's a pure joke. But Enchant has not posted anything else that relates to this or is a pure joke. It looks unnatural/forced.

Also, you still haven't made any productive comments about your flow trap vote. What did you learn from the pressure you put on flow trap, and in retrospect was it a good idea?

[floo]

All right, here's my read on the player I've posted the most about: flow trap.

At the beginning of the day, flow trap asked for "tips on how to read someone" (53), and short, inconsequential posts suggested that the player did not have a clear sense of their goals. Later on, we saw reads and other opinions that showed a sense of direction. The short posting style remained, but the topics were more substantial. flow trap later admits:

Because I was pretending to be new?

Here is a post written a week ago in the Newbie Introduction thread (

not in this game

):

Well, as usual when I get on a new site: I have no idea what I'm doing

This makes me think flow trap was also confused.

I think the change in style suggests town. flow trap was moving away from being confused and/or pretending to be new because (s)he maintained the same style that might seem fillery. There was no pretending to have a different personality or posting style, even if that might have looked more towny.

The pair analysis chart (282) looks like town effort superficially. The image looks like it took time to input the names, fill the color, find a chart template, etc. But I'm skeptical considering how little effort flow trap has put into the writing of other posts. Ultimately, I don't put much weight on the chart.

[floo]

Responding to some questions.

floo, why is your vote still on flow trap?

In the middle of figuring out my reads, that didn't come to mind. I'll UNVOTE:

Just finished reading the thread up to now.

Some players have found my vote switch to flow trap suspicious because I didn't want to attract suspicion (Enchant in 150 comes to mind). If I don't want to be voted out, I don't see why I shouldn't take the effort not to seem overly scummy.

Will post other thoughts soon.

Point is, your vote from

Enchant

to

flow trap

wasn't suspicious but the explanation you gave on post 139 raised suspicion cause towns don't usually bother if they look scummy. But for mafias, they have to blend in, they have to pretend to be towns, that's why 'image-conscious' is not a town thing for sure.

You really think it's like this.

"Hello I'm Mafia I want to blend in!" - floo
"OK Mafia" - Sal

Town doesn't want to seem scummy. There are scummy behaviors that don't benefit town at all like lurking, and there are others that do benefit town if done correctly (aggression as pointed out by Spartan). It was the beginning of the game. Being hyper-aggressive would only seem scummy at the time, no benefit because there was little to no information. So posting scummy would leave me worse off in the first place, and there wouldn't be anything good to make up for that.

[floo]

I see other players passing esotericzoomer for questioning the flow trap wagon for a difference in gameplay philosophy. The problem is he was too insistent in his complaint even though flow trap was at zero chance to actually die. There was no harm in the wagon while he yelled that there was no gain. That makes me think EZ was insincere. Besides he has no reads besides the convenient safebet scumread needed to vote him even though he talks Mafia theory and debates the little town/scumtells other people have pointed out. Scumlean on esotericzoomer currently.

[floo]

You will hate me for this.

I will hammer anyone, if i see him at E-1.

Don't put people on E-1 unless you surely decide you want them dead. Ask for claims on E-2, so mafia can't trade self on some Cop claim with instant punch.

I decided on it, so don't argue.

possible motives for this:
- wild reaction test (most rational motive)
- attention seeking
- perplex other players
- avoid scumreads for posting weird stuff (like the Mafia joke claim) and then not posting weird stuff
- concern over lolhammer (talked about it at the beginning of the game, very disapprovingly)

[floo]

I find it suspicious again that Enchant does a wild joke post 478, similar to 11, and then posts no follow-ups to the joke, no responses to questions or explanation of motive, despite posting at least 10 more times after 478. More suspicion on Enchant now, a scumlean at this point.

Maybe this gambit is for the scumpartner to interact and seem towny, but there have been no reaction posts to suggest that.

[floo]

I said I scumread Enchant because of no explanations, and I get a "VOTE ME!" instead of an explanation...

[floo]

Quickly read through Fredrick and Salsabil's ISOs once. Didn't find anything scummy that stood out to me. I don't want to hold up the game by forcing myself to make detailed reads.

VOTE: Enchant with your permission, of course

[floo]

Okay, so I just go through

Fredrick A Campbell

's iso, these are the things I found:
Post= 166, 169 and 173 are good, feels like a town post
Post= 212 seems opportunistic vote on

Floo

, not getting town vibe
Post= 365 by keeping

esotericzoomer

's post 444, it actually makes sense, like you tried to protect/defend your scum partner (in this case

Enchant

) there
Post= 494 here I asked your reads which is a serious question and game-related question which you avoided. But you interacted with me in those posts which were not game-related, from which I feel you're somewhat lurking at this point or want to be the second mysterious player here, not a town thing for me.

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

About

Prism

, their posts are less but really meaningful and can be counted almost all. Getting a good town vibe at the moment.

Your comments about 365 assume that Enchant and Fredrick are scumpartners. Let's say that Fredrick is town, however, regardless of Enchant's alignment. Then he would just be asking you to read Enchant in a different way that is more logically sound, which is perfectly normal for town to do. I haven't read/thought enough about if it is likely that Enchant and Fredrick are partners.

You said in 228 that you didn't want to give Enchant the benefit of the doubt because you "don't want to get burned again." If I'm reading that as it appears, you don't want to think about Enchant with the proper assumptions because you don't want to be voted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm reading through your ISO and feel like half of your posts are interactions with flow trap. What's your current read on flow trap?

[floo]

Analyzing Enchant and Fredrick for a) a read on Fredrick and b) a read if they are partners.

Found this sus to even insinuate it is somewhat serious a vote this early on with such little discussion, unless ofc this is to obtain a reaction and read responses.

Right, as I explained I said it was "partially serious" to avoid seeming scummy / too random.

I probably ask something nonsense, but really want.

Why you think placing votes suspicious? Do you really care how suspicious are you?

Of course explaining votes is good, but doing that and claiming you did that just to don't seem suspicious for that is really something strange.

Town supposed to push suspicious people, you know.

I second that. Not your vote but your explanation is suspicious : "

to avoid seeming scummy"

I third that.

VOTE: floo

Actually I'll try directly quoting

Found this sus to even insinuate it is somewhat serious a vote this early on with such little discussion, unless ofc this is to obtain a reaction and read responses.

Right, as I explained I said it was "partially serious" to avoid seeming scummy / too random.

I probably ask something nonsense, but really want.

Why you think placing votes suspicious? Do you really care how suspicious are you?

Of course explaining votes is good, but doing that and claiming you did that just to don't seem suspicious for that is really something strange.

Town supposed to push suspicious people, you know.

I second that. Not your vote but your explanation is suspicious : "

to avoid seeming scummy"

I third that.

I am saying I directly disagree with this, particularly Salsabil's reasoning here. I think this is a natural thought for relative beginners. I am wondering why someone who has been around the block more often agrees with this.

At this level I don't see any scum openly admit to being insecure about their appearance with 0 prompting, because scum

fear being perceived as selfconcious

Why I agreed with that is because I think that is a possibility and the best lead I have had since then.

I was actually voting floo to see what would happen, not because I truly believed they were very probably scum.

As for opinions, I don't formulate them unless it is a rather sure thing.

I assumed that 211 was the reason for your vote. I didn't feel like commenting too much more because I had explained my early motivation already. I can understand where this is coming from as town. You'd want to pressure a player who is self-admittedly conscious about his perception to see what the fear of being scumread would cause. This action by itself would be NAI to me, but in 604 you say that my post was a scum hint. So there is a pivot from possible scumtell -> just a reaction test. This is dishonest; the honest answer would be "possible scum, want to test for reactions as I believe this player will produce useful reactions, but I do not believe this player is scum anymore" rather than "just a reaction test." The idea to scumread me came from Enchant in the first place, but I don't see any leads in this about an Enchant-Fredrick partnership.

Will continue my analysis.

[floo]

UNVOTE:

inb4 selfhammer

[floo]

To explain more, just because Enchant is unpredictable. I don't want to risk any hammer while this conversation between quiet and Enchant is still ongoing

[floo]

@floo any chance town!Enchant does the self-vote scum claim from your perspective?

It’s hard for me to ever credit it, but I’m not caught up.

If he's that desperate, yes.

Enchant

appears

to have attempted gamethrow in frustrated desperation, that's the important takeaway. Could be legitimate town desperation or a scum Hail Mary.

[floo]

VOTE: Enchant

Oh sorry, i dind't saw this is on E-1.

Reread. This isn't intended self-hammer. It's intended self-vote to put yourself at E-1.

[floo]

VOTE: Prism

Will most likely not stay on this but I want a 3-way tie dynamic

Why? Do you want to prevent a Fredrick or Enchant wagon?

[floo]

Back to post, sorry for being inactive lately. I read through the thread up to this point.

If Enchant is Mafia, they are playing very poorly. The selfhammer drama is a wonderful gift for anyone (town or scum) who wants to push Enchant. Without it, Enchant would probably not be hammered soon, and would instead have several IRL days for themselves and their partner to redirect a wagon. My question throughout the drama has been, "where is Enchant's partner?" No player has taken Enchant's actions to draw attention to himself. And it is doubtful that a scumpartner would even let Enchant post insanity in the first place.

The only post that stood out to me as partner-indicating is

If I were to try to make a readlist of my own, I would definitely "screw" something too. Hence, my reads are very fluid with players that were more likely to be town to me turning into more likely to be scum and vice versa.

Right now, given what I have read, my guess of the scumteam is Salsabil Faria and quiet with a higher than random chance of being right. Random chance is (1/28). Odds of right to wrong are (1:27).

I'll assume that Fredrick is Enchant's scumpartner in this paragraph. Fredrick does not mention an Enchant read in this post or any other post so far post-drama, not even to analyze anything Enchant has done. At this time, Enchant is the most important read, but he has none (865), with an excuse of not having caught up (866). Instead, he redirects attention to two other scumreads but admits that there is a low chance of his reads being correct. So his strategy is to a) avoid discussing Enchant because any position in the Enchant drama will result in (eventual) suspicion, b) propose some other scumreads while admitting inconfidence to avoid angering his (town) scumreads or explaining his reads too far, and c) hope his partner's gambit and his own pivoting will allow them both to survive Day 1.

My point is not that Fredrick is likely Enchant's partner, but that if the two are scumpartners, Fredrick is pursuing a rational strategy. A desperation strategy is possible because the scumteam was in an awful position at the time, both members being widely scumread and the two most voted players.

I want an Enchant vote, even just for the information. But without the consent of other players, I can't risk selfhammer.

Finally, to Enchant. Yes, you are hurting town. Not because you are bad in the first place, but because your vision of yourself being bad has led you to make confusing and self-defeating plays. You did not try to self-hammer yourself because you really were a net negative at the time. You made yourself a net negative by trying to self-hammer. If there's one thing you can do for town, escape the loser mentality, then you will start contributing to the town.

[floo]

I want to post my final reads for the day first. Give me an hour

[floo]

Stuff I thought up before but I want to post now. Not a full readlist because I don't have the time.

flow trap:

as I explained before. Nothing too scummy has gotten my attention, granted that I've mentally filtered out contradictory or silly statements. Seems sincere.

Salsabil Faria:

She has relied on incorrect assumptions in some of her reads that town has no reason to lie or hide their thoughts, but has not changed her beliefs even while some players have pointed out the mistake. I also get the feeling that she confuses long-paragraph or intelligent-sounding analyses for town. Is contributing to the town, but too often uses the aforementioned assumptions in her reads.

Enchant:

scumread right now per what I've written before.

esotericzoomer:

Complaining about flow trap feels more like scum defending town for towncred now. Absolute confidence in Enchant scumread also suspicious. Scumpool candidate.

Fredrick A Campbell:

Between the read pivoting and invalid read justifications as pointed out by other players. Lack of Enchant read, even "this player is unreadable," is concerning. Scummier if Enchant flips Mafia than Town as the most likely partner. (Unrelated, but keep in mind that Fredrick has gotten more suspicion for not posting reads than flow trap.)

I have not read enough of Prism, Spartan, or Quiet (safebet) yet to make an informed read.

[floo]

Enchant unvoted themselves so at E-2 right?

[floo]

Yes, in 975 Enchant is at E-1, while self-voting. Self-unvote in 981

[floo]

Reasons to kill esotericzoomer:

Widely townread?

esotericzoomer was more of a "passive townread," in that he was away from scrutiny in the final leg of Day 1. He had his share of scummy lines to justify a vote. Prism or myself would be a better choice for this reason.

Scumreads

His other scumread was Fredrick. There are other players who scumread Fredrick, so killing EZ would be a poor choice. Fredrick is somewhat vindicated by Enchant's town flip. Plus, EZ's 100% confidence about scumreading Enchant would have blocked his chances of pushing a further scumread.

I think there are two plausible reasons then. The two reasons I mentioned above would not be the main reasons to kill, but could be secondary ones.
- Probable power role. I have not read enough into EZ's posts to see where this is implied though.
- Avoid Doctor/Jailkeeper. This is a hybrid reason which combines "widely townread" and/or "scumreads."

[floo]

Fredrick is somewhat vindicated by Enchant's town flip

Why do you think that Floo, I don't agree.

Part of the reason to scumread Fredrick was scummy interactions with Enchant. In particular, I pointed out Fredrick avoided reading Enchant. EZ pointed out Enchant made his vaguest read on Fredrick. If Enchant flipped scum, Fredrick would likely be today's hammer.

[floo]

My vote is in the same place:

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

You vote quick. How does the Enchant flip change your read of Fredrick?

[floo]

I agree that is true but I don't see why he is even somewhat vindicated when he was being scumread before them interactions occurred, Floo how do you feel about Prism? Would you be willing to join a wagon on them today?

I don't townread Prism. A lot of vote pressure/suspicion would be the best way to get a read out of a player who stays under the radar by just contributing a lot. I'm open to voting Prism, but I would prefer voting Salsabil Faria, who stays out of suspicion for the same reason as Prism.

[floo]

Salsa, you get almost indignant with your posts sometimes when responding to people lobbing suspicion your way. Do you think that’s AI at all?

True, Sal mocked many scumreads/suspicion on her meaninglessly (like with emojis) while not necessarily refuting them.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

I'm finding Enchant town now

Ok, I think I'm going to place Salsa in the Leaning Scum but not open to shoot category

Right now, given what I have read, my guess of the scumteam is Salsabil Faria and quiet with a higher than random chance of being right. Random chance is (1/28). Odds of right to wrong are (1:27).

It's irrationally defensive at best, arrogantly scummy at worst. The underlying thought process in any case is "I'm so towny, how could someone scumread me?"

Joke of the year!! Now I'm arrogant!!!

Yes, you're arrogant.

I second that. Not your vote but your explanation is suspicious : "

to avoid seeming scummy"

Ironically, you're outspokenly image-conscious as seen by the posts in the spoiler.

VOTE: Salsabil Faria for now

[floo]

Salsa, you get almost indignant with your posts sometimes when responding to people lobbing suspicion your way. Do you think that’s AI at all?

True, Sal mocked many scumreads/suspicion on her meaninglessly (like with emojis) while not necessarily refuting them.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

I'm finding Enchant town now

Ok, I think I'm going to place Salsa in the Leaning Scum but not open to shoot category

Right now, given what I have read, my guess of the scumteam is Salsabil Faria and quiet with a higher than random chance of being right. Random chance is (1/28). Odds of right to wrong are (1:27).

It's irrationally defensive at best, arrogantly scummy at worst. The underlying thought process in any case is "I'm so towny, how could someone scumread me?"

Joke of the year!! Now I'm arrogant!!!

Yes, you're arrogant.

I second that. Not your vote but your explanation is suspicious : "

to avoid seeming scummy"

Ironically, you're outspokenly image-conscious as seen by the posts in the spoiler.

VOTE: Salsabil Faria for now

Your gut reaction to a scumread is to do the exact same thing I scumread you for lmao

[floo]

So I'm jumping on the Salsa wagon today. Other wagons I'd consider: Prism, Floo, because I sure as hell aren't going to be able to sort them by reading them. No interest in a Fred vote today, I think enough people can eliminate that slot if my gut is wrong about that one without me. When I get a moment, I'm going to see if defensive towny vibes are a thing for Salsa generally, or if this is a deviation, because I'm still early enough in my mafia career to enjoy meta.

VOTE: Salsabil

I like this. Though I don't have anything to say to you at the moment, if you have any question, ask please.

Though this is a normal reaction. Unfortunately, you haven't said what you "like" about this scumread. Is it just that quiet is less harsh than me, or seems easier to convince? quiet seems to scumread you for your defensiveness (as this would not be a scumread if he saw "defensive towny vibes"), which is the same reason as mine. So you "like" the scumread that implies why in two words (defensive ... vibes) while you mock the more elaborate scumread with multiple quotes and accusations.

There are some recent Prism posts but I will post this before I read them.

[floo]

Edit: The "Though this is a normal reaction" wasn't meant to be in the final post (am posting a lot of what comes to my mind right now). I was thinking this might be normal if town Sal is accustomed to overreacting to scumreads. I'll read her former games to see if this is the case.

[floo]

One such thing: Hi Salsa, nice to be here, you’re town asf.

Is there any change in Sal's posting style that makes you scumread her, or did you vote her upon reviewing her posts and finding that they were not as towny as you originally believed?

[floo]

Is being dismissive really towny or NAI? There's a line between "the scumreads on me don't matter, I'll just hunt for scum" versus "the people who scumread me are stupid." I'm seeing the latter from Salsabil Faria.

I took a negative tone because I knew she was more prone to being baited into a fight as you call it, I wouldn't do the same to a calmer player who reasons it out rather than yelling with GIFs and emojis. Sal is baiting me too into a fight, either intentionally or not, by responding to a harsh and serious accusation flippantly. This only makes me want to pressure her further, which I did, consciously accepting the risk of growing bitterness. Is a dismissive and flippant attitude appropriate anymore?

I have to admit I didn't read Spartan/quiet/Prism because I didn't feel like doing it in the pre-hammer days and didn't have time to on the day of my final reads. At least in part I formed reads on other players first because of their lower post volume/length. I take responsibility for my laziness as a negative for the town. I'm still alive though, and can make reads for the rest of the day on the players I didn't read on Day 1.

[floo]

I'm trying to quote another game but I can't figure out how to (the server says something like "Forum is locked"), so I'll just post links to relevant posts from other games Sal has played. Newbie 2035 has no relevant posts to the current discussion, and Newbie 2042 is ongoing (I did not read that). Because the entire length of each one of these completed games is shorter than our Day One and Sal has mostly stayed under the radar as town, I have found only one relevant example.

Newbie 2039
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12298058
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12299804
In this game we see Salsabil responding to a bad accusation (I agree that triple posting is a bad reason for a scumread). She asks the accuser to substantiate their vote and, when the reason is stated, calls it out as a "crappy reason" and asks them to argue rationally. All while including elements of mocking/dismissiveness/flippantness (whatever you want to call it) mixed into her language. Big difference from this game.

[floo]

How is shortening your responses to a scumread from discussing its merits to 2 laughing emojis an improvement?

[floo]

In 1058, as I explained, I didn't take the time to form a read on Prism. There were some scummy posts I saw from Sal that caught my attention more.

[floo]

Also I'm in the middle of writing some reads / elaborating on why I scumread Salsabil. It looks like an essay, and I won't be able to finish it until tomorrow.

[floo]

I reread Sal's iso in more depth for info on her defensiveness. It's not that she doesn't respond to accusations, she does. But she uses overly defensive wording, and when a debate about a scumread on her gets dragged out enough, she uses an excuse of "I don't care" / "That's only your opinion" / "You're a hypocrite" / etc. This isn't comprehensive, but some things that I've taken note of. Note that the posts are out of chronological order.

flow trap interaction

544 reminds me of the arrogance that she will not be scumread. "I think I'm giving you everything which you need to prove me as a scum" and you'll soon figure you can't, is what she is saying. Inviting someone to write a scumread case against you (with a negative tone too) would be the opposite of what Sal wants considering her overall defensiveness. If she's town, it's an emotional reaction driven by anger to hammer in a point.

If she's scum, the best course of action is not responding at all. The reaction then is emotional or instinctive, ultimately irrational. I will read Sal’s interactions to see which emotions are at play. Towny emotions include a willingness to help other players amid debate, and sincere frustration. Scummy emotions include fear in that she prefers hiding away to talking, and overdefensiveness.

Regardless of whether she’s town or scum, I think the dismissive and flippant comments (using Prism’s wording) are a mental defense mechanism. Her style is to mock and dismiss negative comments in advance of a more serious response or using an excuse to avoid a conversation (which is itself for mental defense). Unfortunately, I haven’t found another game to see if this is natural for her.

544 doesn’t suggest towny helpfulness, as it is sarcastic and snarky. It reveals a fighting rather than talking attitude to a mid-D1 scumlean, which wouldn’t even put her close to the stake. It's overdefensive panicking - scummy.

553 responds to flow trap’s accusations in the same conversation as 544. Sal evades responding to flow trap’s questions about why her prior post might not make sense in terms of logic and clarity of ideas. She calls out flow trap for hypocrisy and uses this as an excuse to ignore.

Explaining her post could avoid flow trap’s scumread (and benefit town) for both town and scum Sal. There are two explanations for suboptimal play then: she realizes her post is scummy and prefers to avoid it entirely, or she is angry. The former explanation doesn’t seem likely since she could just apologize for her negative tone. It’s also hard to see why town would be so angry about someone just pointing out one weird post about them, so I think this is scum overdefensiveness too.

Enchant interaction + sidenote

413 is very defensive, calling Enchant "totally wrong" and accusing them of "twist[ing]/shad[ing]" her words. Even while Enchant was not the hot scumread, the wording of this post suggests that Enchant is Mafia manipulating the evidence rather than a possibly incorrect player who could be town or scum. This is definitely a retaliatory attitude that is not helpful for anyone who is trying to read her.

When flow trap calls Sal out for a "victim tone” (a good way to describe it), she responds by a GIF "I don't care" (416). Rather than apologize as town for counterproductive tone, she shuts down further discussion. Her fear of being scumread is stronger than her motivation to scumhunt. Pointing out one scummy thing in an overall townread could anger her, which is actually the case with the response to EZ’s townread in 523.

Final Notes

At the time I started being rude to Sal (1108), as explained, I took the negative tone because I noticed Sal’s overdefensiveness and emotionality (if that’s a word). I would never have done this to a player who would counter me rationally and calmly, which I’d expect everyone else alive to do (except flow trap, who I townread anyway).

I don’t want to comment on her interactions with me today, as I still want to see how they play out.

[floo]

Explain your reads and don't respond with an "I don't care"

[floo]

1. 553 is calling flow trap a hypocrite. Whether you're town or scum, you're avoiding discussion.
2. I got the feeling that "the people who scumread me are stupid" by your negative tones directed toward other players, in different phases of the game and of different experiences.

We have two choices. We can either:
a. continue our shouting match
b. discuss civilly
Please choose one.

[floo]

Let's walk back to safebet222 first before I read quiet.

46 shows seriousness before even post 50, asking about player motivations (including OMGUS). safebet222 had been consistently more serious than flow trap despite both posting in short sentences.

86 to 91 progression is reaction testing as admitted in 99, but it has two intentions. Some players only think it was for the pressure; I also noticed that safebet222 states in 91 that he's proving a point that the Enchant wagon is harmless. The ensuing discussion benefited town, and as stated, scum wouldn't want that attention. I'll rate this only as slightly town-suggesting because it's still a strange move with possible layers of reverse logic.

safebet took the time to analyze reactions to his E-1 maneuver, defending it, along with looking at the wagon itself. He used this info to form 129's reads. This is towny, helping solve the puzzle and moving it into the mid-phase of D1. 144 might seem scummy in isolation because it looks like he just wants a wagon, but it's only a logical next step from a scumread.

345 is backtracking. Not because EZ pointed out that pair analysis was of little worth, but because EZ was too insistent on complaining to be scum even while being sussed for it. At that point it looked like the potential for an EZ wagon dried up though, and Prism's point is a good excuse to backtrack. Could be genuine, could be an excuse. NAI for me, but it shows safebet's (at least apparent) commitment to good logic and tells for reading regardless of his alignment.

459 Read list makes logical and genuine points for 5 players, but 3 reads look like putting a square peg into a round hole. Fred is nulled (not scumleaned!) for being "aloof and cryptic," while this is a reason to scumread flow trap. Even while it's mentioned that Fred has more experience than flow trap, so being aloof and cryptic should be more scummy for Fred.

You could get away with saying flow trap was "fake at hell" at the time, but flow trap has kept up his style the whole game. Doesn't seem fake anymore. What it really misses, though, is that flow trap is sophomoric (as in having some experience, but not enough to be truly "experienced"), and some anti-town/arrogant behavior mixed with genuine gamesolving is typical of this kind of player. Should have been nulled then.

An EZ read after the previously expressed EZ townread, is conveniently avoided because he posted a Pepe. The logic of the offensiveness isn't right. The ABC article quoted saying it's a hate symbol also says that Pepe's creation was not hateful - it's "a ubiquitous internet meme," and was only "hijacked" and "repurposed." Indeed, "its usage does not appear limited to promoting hate." Asking for a "policy elim" for this - really? I'm not defending EZ's use of Pepe, I'm just saying safebet overreacted. This is probably just safebet going too angry to think properly. It could be an excuse not to read EZ, but there's really no harm in an EZ townread. NAI in itself but just wanted to point this faulty read.

(I have been thinking that scum wanting to replace wouldn't post a full playerlist read. But there's about 16 hours between when safebet made his read list and final post to the replacement announcement - meaning that the replacement was probably sudden and not planned ahead. This isn't a town or scum tell in any way then.)

Of course every town has misconceptions or uses faulty logic at some point. safebet's other reads are logical though, so this seems more like just a slip-up rather than a calculated manipulation of reasoning. Overall I'd lean town on this slot before quiet replaced in.

[floo]

On to quiet's actual posts. This is shorter than my read on safebet22. My read on quiet is more based on his posts in comparison and as a whole rather than individual ones (as with safebet).

662 looks like part gutread. quiet explains it's also based on common towntells as in 663 1163, mainly posting quality. Keep in mind that high posting quality can be replicated by scum. Gut feeling and posting quality are the easiest reasons to say you townread someone, but I don't see any particular scum incentive for this - you need to keep your options open for pushes, even if it doesn't like right now like Prism or Sal will be pushed. NAI but important to note for quiet's reads strategy.

Talking Enchant out of the defeatist mentality while simultaneously voting and scumreading them is the major thing quiet did on D1. This can be easily faked as scum for town cred. I haven't seen anything particular in his comments that's AI - nothing particularly towny that scum wouldn't do, or posts/votes that seem out of place.

742 reversing safebet's flow trap scumread is only logical. The other reads have good reasons. For quiet it's hard to tell if it's sincere town or insincere Mafia, but there's been no poorly argued reads. From 757, the reads have stayed consistent with changes in them happening at a natural pace. Asking questions and being open to analyzing former and recent posts is another "standard" towntell that goes toward quiet.

832, pressuring flow trap to vote Enchant, is a break from 707. You're implying in 707 that you want as much information as possible - wouldn't you want players to naturally vote Enchant, rather than forcing a mere scumleaner to vote? In your place with the same strategy in mind, I would have tried to force out reads on Enchant from players who had been reluctant to read them (Fred and Sal come to mind). Even a simple question like "do you think this post is more scum or town?" would have been more useful. I get why you didn't want to prolong the day (1000). Fred and Sal explicitly stated that they have no read on Enchant (no null read though?) and instead lukewarmly tried to vote each other (the fact that they didn't push hard to vote each other even while they thought each other were better kills than Enchant, makes me suspect potential bussing; take this with a grain of salt because I haven't thought about this thoroughly, and I could be factually wrong). But the break from the information seeking pattern to "just end this madness" seems too sudden to me without a fuller explanation of this. Slightly scummy post.

922 is helping town. Asking flow trap to contribute more and be less scummy decreases the chance of any push on them; it's not worth another helpful post for towncred. Directing Sal from flow trap to Enchant only helps town too, as a flow-Sal conflict would be far more damaging to town than just another misled Enchant voter. One of the towniest quiet posts in my opinion.

Would scum fake standard towntells like contribution and helpfulness? Not much indication of this. I'd expect a scum quiet to have been scumread pushing harder on day 1 and not looking for town tells as often. In conclusion, a pretending scum is possible, but I haven't seen a behavior that would strongly suggest that. Town lean on quiet himself, town lean on the former safebet.

At this time I have only read quiet's ISO up to 922 for time purposes. Will need to read more later, but my read won't change much. Nor have I read spartan's post above.

[floo]

Finishing my quiet read. My gut has been telling me safebet/quiet are town this whole game, if nothing else for an honestly informative tone. Thus my read might be flawed due to confirmation bias, in particular missing LAMIST or subtly manipulative posts. I assume it's not though, unless someone can point out my own reading flaws.

Brief question

925 says quiet does not think the scumteam is Fred + Enchant. Contradicts other posts, as at this time quiet was voting and scumreading Enchant and in the same post placing suspicion on Fred. There's no reason stating why quiet believes this, so there's not enough info for this to be AI. @quiet, please elaborate?

Enchant

Throughout the Enchant push, quiet is acknowledging the possibility that Enchant is town and this is a not very useful push. Their tone of their interactions with Enchant assume Enchant is town, which is a necessity for talking Enchant out of it. The problem is that quiet goes silent on scumreading Enchant afterwards, preferring to worry about Enchant flipping town. At this point quiet is treating Enchant like a policy elimination.

It's an easy way to blend in, but throughout the Enchant controversy wasn't setting up the town to "implode" (as Prism puts it). In fact, no one did this that comes to my mind; there isn't a blame game for Enchant which leads to votes because the Enchant wagon was uncontroversial. Off the top of my head:
- Enchant encouraged a self-wagon
- 4 other players voted Enchant
- I would have voted Enchant had the wagon not progressed so quickly
(That's 6/9 voters already)
- Two people (Fred + Sal) who explicitly had no read on Enchant without much explanation
I think there was that one player who thought Enchant was town but didn't defend them strongly. I can't check it right now.
Which makes me think scum was just letting the Enchant wagon run its course and get them an easy miselim while they set up further pushes by attacking other players. quiet himself (1046) acknowledges the wagon was a "policy elim" without a particularly scummy player being spotted. The only pushable "ringleader" was EZ with his 99.9...% confidence; pushing an widely scumread town that hard is too risky for scum anyway.

Back to the point, this means I can't call quiet's pushing of Enchant noticeably town or scum indicative.

D2

1086 is the start of when my and quiet's reads begin to match closely, even if I'm only relying on gut at that time for Prism and Spartan. The noticeable similarities are a strong flow trap townread, a Fredrick scumlean while preferring another (hopefully more useful) wagon. Scumreading Sal for the same reason as me (1113). It's a great place to pocket me honestly if I'm wrong - he could also follow my (mis)reads while I take the D3 heat because my scumreads are more assertive. Once again it's not certain this is a scumtell, but quiet is suspicious if Sal or another floo-led vote flips town.

Not pushing Fredrick because he's an easy miselim if town, I understand. My fear is that Sal's slot is town, and scum will push Fredrick (easy push) or me ("ringleader" of bad Sal vote) D3 as a final easy but divisive push. At that point, scum is using me perfectly - let's say flow trap knows I'm townreading him for NAI parts of his regular posting style, while quiet is pocketing me and using my reads as a Trojan Horse. My point: if Sal/fairy slot flips town, scum was playing differently with regards to the Enchant vote and the inactive D2 analytical posts than I am expecting - I will take this in mind and start my readlist anew.

1115 about the inactivity. Gut tells me scum is deliberately semi-active, setting up their near-final votes right now while waiting for the D2 finale and changing their final vote if necessary. You could calculate and compare the post rates/day of every player in the game if you wanted to. That would also be a reaction test to see which scums try to seem towny by posting more (unnaturally), but it's too late for that to work.

1154 Sal saying quiet is playing very different between D1 and D2, I don't agree. We still see an analytical player who admits his insecurity (D1, enchant may be town; D2, floo and prism may be scum), who doesn't get into conflict a lot or push his scumreads too hard, although he has many substantiated reads. LAMIST-esque posts seem like his natural style.

1160 quiet is missing the very real possibility of a hard push D2 (backed by useful idiot towns) -> easy Fred push D3 is a great scum strategy. When he redirects attention to other players, he talks more about how they would play as scum (and implies how he might scumread them) without comparing & contrasting with himself in detail. He says floo/Prism/Sal (the first two of which are townleans of his) are playing well if scum, fully admitting that those two townleans are flimsy effort reads (per 1113) and assumed (a better reason is found in 1163). Mediocre reasoning or evasion aimed toward deflecting a serious question, a scummy post.

That's all, I townlean quiet.

Other Stuff

I'll try to read Prism and Spartan soon, but here's what my gut is telling me:
- Spartan and Prism lean town (I have not formally read any of them yet)
- At least one scum was off the Enchant wagon, good chance both - at least one team member distanced themselves from the entire Enchant affair to set up future misvotes (I explained some careful thinking to back it up)
- Spartan vs Fredrick is town vs scum, and there is one scum on each side of the wagon (i.e. one partner is vote bussing; this is a wild guess)
- if you haven't guessed where this leads, Frederick + Sal is the most likely scumteam in terms of individual probability of being scum (i.e. two scummiest players) as well as plausible strategy/interactions (I don't count on this being correct though, I'm focused on getting just one scum today)
Based on my experience in chat mafia my gut is only a little better than random chance, but I just wanted to share my thoughts.

[floo]

I don't think the very carefully curated posts from floo are as town as you think they are.

I'll save judgment on the essay until I see it but the initial reasoning I do not like at all, nor much of floo's play around the stronger slots.

Floo, I also am going to need some more reads on the rest of the room. Just top of your head. Bonus points for a response to the Prism quote I pulled.

"Very carefully curated" might describe my early D1 posts because I was a chat player going into forum mafia, relieved to be able to post in higher quality. I realized by D2 that I don't have all the time in the world for very carefully thought out, well-written posts. Now I say a lot of whatever's on my mind.

@Prism If you don't like my initial reasoning, you can respond to my essay. Specifically why you don't think there's a fearing scum undercurrent in Sal's posts.

[floo]

hey guys! not quite sure how replacing into a game at this stage is gonna go, but i figured id give it a shot to test myself. i was decently confident of my slot being town based on a quick skim of the last few pages - i felt her frustration at not being understood and her decision to leave abruptly was coming from a town's POV. i'd much rather replace into town than scum, so yeah.

how would you guys like me to approach this? read through the whole thread first or provide reads bit by bit? im thinking the former will be less annoying, but i'd like to ask questions about the early stages of the game even if it's from like 2 weeks ago. tell me wat ya think.

VOTE: quiet this dude's maf btw

Hello, I'll get right to the point.

I haven't reacted to Sal quitting the game because reading quiet/Prism/Spartan would be more important than talking to a non-replaced slot. What's really strange is that your predecessor decided to leave the game just because one player was mean to her. She's playing Mafia, a serious conflict-driven game, shouldn't she expect this to happen to her one day. There's an official site post (forgot where) that tells you that rough conflicts and insults are to be expected.

quiet's scumread and vote on Sal was less elaborately reasoned, but I believe he was a factor. Sal scumread quiet as her last read statement - the two possible reasons she gave were LAMIST (explicit, worse reason) and the scumread on her (implicit, better reason). The problem was that she refused to scumread me, she was acting more like "f u" than "you're scum." The exams might have played a part, in that she couldn't write a full refutation of my reasoning and instead resorted to a short rant, but she would have at least expected herself to have some activity.

I'd like you to post some short gutreads. I'm most interested in your reads on quiet (if you sincerely scumread him) and me (to sort out the conflict).

[floo]

About Sal and Fred, I noticed that she didn't really have a reason to scumread Fred around mid-D2. I would've expected her, when that frustrated, to scumread floo + quiet. Scumreading Fred over me, seems either like an easy read on a widely scumread player or a bus.

[floo]

@mod you spelled fairy's name wrong and forgot to update Sal's name in the latest vote count

[floo]

Yesterday was busier than I expected. responding to some recent posts (starting at page 50) first.

1226 and succeeding posts: Fred forced to maintain his appearance of being lazy if scum, and has committed to no effort if town. Asking questions is the best way to get info from Fred at this point, especially yes/no ones that can be answered in seconds.

@Frederick A Campbell please explain whatever reads come to your mind in 5ish words each? Even if you don't have the time to respond to follow up questions, just having the basic reasons is useful to everyone. A brief "Lurking, evades my questions" is far more useful than no explanation.

Typing up some follow up posts quickly.

[floo]

@Prism the point you're missing is that I find the main emotion in Sal's posts to be fear. A reaction is not evidence of fear in itself; however when you have longer posts suggest a fear emotion, then it is plausible for those kind of reactions to be fear motivated. Compare a post like 426 from flow trap, these kind of short reactions don't ever mean anything in themselves. They're important when taken as a collective. They're very important when compared to other types of posts to look at the underlying motives and emotions.

1264 The reason to call me low effort, for Prism, is not seeing a reason to scumread the fairy slot while my townreads aren't impressive. Prism is making it sound like Sal was obvious town, in that pushing her, even having a wrong read, would make me scum. If you don't think Sal is an obvious enough townread for that, the other reason to scumread me is my tone. What difference is there between sounding angry or mocking at times between the former Sal and me?

Yes, I was reaction baiting. How much though? I'll look back at my former posts. 1108 wasn't thought out too carefully. If I had explained "arrogance" and "image-consciousness" more thoroughly, it would not have been openly provocative. It would have taken an analytical tone, even if that sounds brutally honest. I didn't really feel the need to explain those points, as I expected Sal to talk it out more rather than ignoring it even if only one sentence. I was trying to see what she would do with it, how she proves she's not being arrogant or image-conscious without too much evidence to refute, or admitting it herself.

1127 is the one post designed to reaction bait the most. I didn't expect sal to respond to my scumread with literally the same thing I scumread her for. I have to admit it was quickly thought out and written poorly. I should have taken a less combative tone like "OK, you're doing the same thing I scumread you for. In retrospect do you think you were acting arrogantly? etc" I knew a fight would happen though, but only predicted that it would continue for 3 or less days before it evolved into a less acrimonious discussion. A net negative considering what happened afterwards. I couldn't have foreseen the sub.

The rest of my posts elaborating on my read are like 1108, attempting to be objectively analytical. I prioritized building my case with reasoning over making sure another player's mental state (which broke down unexpectedly quickly and hard) was temporarily stable.

1204 is like 1127, I would agree it's a combative tone. I wrote it in ~15 seconds. 1127 not an irrational decision in retrospect, but learning from 1127, 1204 was a clear mistake.

1212 After half an hour I realized I was taking this too far. I tried to rectify the situation as quickly as possible, and I thought the post in itself implied I'd calm down. My move was decent, if I could improve it there I'd apologize and promise to calm down explicitly.

BTW I again prioritized solving the puzzle (i.e. my reads) over communications (e.g. by expressing remorse like Prism has suggested). I didn't feel a need to go , it's not how I play commenting my feelings at every twist and turn of the game. I'm at high risk for death now though so you got your apology.

TLDR I explained my perception of the events that led to Prism scumreading me. I still consider the slot the best scumread push for today (unless I review further and discover a scummier player) and believe that pushing her was the right move to make. I do apologize, however, for rash words that over-escalated the situation and know I should have de-escalated the situation quicker.

[floo]

1266 I agree being upset is not a scumtell. But being overly upset in response to inconsequential matters is a scumtell. And acting really upset in a way that seems unnatural (i.e. refusing to scumread me while saying I'm playing well if scum but horribly if town, which would be a scumtell in her eyes) is also suspicious.

1269 @Prism just to be sure, are you 100% confident I'm scum? I've explained what you're getting wrong about my point.

also 1270 @Fredrick wild gut guess, take it with a grain of salt.

[floo]

find this post (1005) weird because it's essentially an indictment of Frederick, not of Enchant. the language he uses here ("if Enchant is Mafia, they are playing very poorly.") ("Enchant would probably not be hammered soon")("I want an Enchant vote, even just for the information.") seems to imply Enchant is a townlean overall, and he's only scum in relation to Frederick. why he doesn't just make a case on and push Fred i'm not sure. It also makes no sense for Fred to be partnered with Enchant here - he's completely AWOL from the thread and would likely be targeted tomorrow if Enchant was his scum partner. but i can see that as being a difference of opinion since EZ thought the same thing. we can see from 1014 that Enchant really is a scumread, so why all the psuedo-defending in 1005? why not jsut say yes i think this guy is mafia and we should vote him?

im pretty sure this read is a load of crap by me since it's nearly 6am and i can barely think straight but i just wanted to get something out on floo

My point is Enchant is a forced vote on D1/D2, and if Enchant flips Mafia Fredrick is the probable partner. Enchant is mildly scummy but not certain Mafia. Fredrick is still suspicious if Enchant flips Town, though I would look into other players.

A takeaway from the wagon is what scum did instead. There's little to be gained in being another Enchant pusher, far more to gain in setting pushes on other players.

[floo]

Alright, I'm up and moving, making some coffee and then circling back.

Where are people at atm? Who are you willing to vote? We can't have the game go dead right before deadline. I'd be willing to compromise on Frederick if I have to, but I'm not really thrilled about it esp. since he's voting floo.

How are you on spartan?

I don't recognize this slot and CTRL+F isn't helping me either, anyone can explain?

[floo]

hi floo

who are your top vote candidates atm, do you still scumread fairy?

Still scumleaning fairy. Fredrick vote is forced later in the game; how Fredrick eventually votes will inform my final read going from null to an outright scumread.

Thinking about Spartan and Prism. Reasons to scumread Spartan might include avoiding Enchant and pushing Fredrick without thought for other players, and I will think about this.

Prism looks really bad if I'm voted out today. I think Prism being scum only makes sense if Fairy is scum though. I'm not scumleaning Prism atm, but I find that becoming more annoyed, stressed, and determined on single-handedly saving the town creates a good excuse for leading a miselim.

[floo]

Floo! Also if you could give some context to your salsa metadive, and yes gut feel on fairy.

I was only able to look at one game because the other games looked like they're ongoing.

fairy (not Sal) actually gut leans town for a "contribution," longer posts playstyle. I know from experience this isn't a good gut-sponsored reason for a townread - I've filtered it out of my logical analysis. I'd need to look at how fairy finalizes his reads; in other words, too early to actually read this regardless of what an inaccurate gut impulse says. That means I "still scumlean fairy" for Sal's posts.

To explain past posts: I might be hypothetically inclined to townlean someone who is hard pushing town me in situations where it's not worth it for scum to lynch me in exchange for lots of suspicion. I think it's worth leading a lynch on me if played correctly to make an excuse - 5P LYLO is hard for town to win (as all 3 towns need a correct consensus).

[floo]

So who is letting you drive a miselim in a townFloo world then?

FlowTrap? Fred (that’s not precisely fair). Like, who is watching this happen?

I'd say Spartan (whatever alignment) would be a major reason for my wagon. The player with the most elaborate and confident townread on me focuses on pushing Fredrick instead of fairy or Prism (who are more relevant to my situation).

[floo]

Not to say Spartan is scum or has an unequivocal obligation to rescue me. If he is town, legitimately scumreads Fredrick but doesn't scumread Prism or fairy, it's fine for him.

[floo]

Prism looks really bad if I'm voted out today. I think Prism being scum only makes sense if Fairy is scum though. I'm not scumleaning Prism atm, but I find that becoming more annoyed, stressed, and determined on single-handedly saving the town creates a good excuse for leading a miselim.

yet annoyance/stress were not plausibly town for Salsabil lmao

FWIW I definitely put too much pressure on myself as town, but I 100% just AFK and let the deadline do the work for me here as scum.

This is misrepresenting my opinion. There is a chance that you are scum, and your annoyance/stress is faked to give you an excuse to stay alive on D3. Your motivations are different from Sal. If you are town, your annoyance is less about hiding away from the issue and instead confronting it by getting a vote. You are voting out a town, which is anti-town, but a town!Prism's underlying strategy of voting out a scumread is pro-town. Sal's strategy was definitely anti-town, even on the off-chance that her slot is town.

I find it interesting that your tone has become more confrontational over D2 toward me. I am calmly responding to you by explaining my motives. If Sal had also explained her motives like good town trying to solve the game, I would not be scumreading her at this point. I wanted to see this kind of reaction because it would show that she does more than fearfully avoiding discussion.

[floo]

Floo! Also if you could give some context to your salsa metadive, and yes gut feel on fairy.

I wanted to see if this was Sal's playing style, so I looked at her profile -> View Topics. I found one game, and the others looked like they were ongoing.

[floo]

Wait you haven't explained clearly. You vote a townlean (Spartan) vs me (a scumread), why?

[floo]

It's irrationally defensive at best, arrogantly scummy at worst. The underlying thought process in any case is "I'm so towny, how could someone scumread me?"

floo i find your basis to begin scumreading salsa confusing - doesn't this indignation suggest a town mindset rather than a scum one?

I've seen scum think "I'm so town" both explicitly and implicitly (i.e. in their tone). It reveals that they do not understand why they are being scumread - this can be both valid (for example being scumread due to a wrong understanding of how the power roles work) and invalid (not understanding that there are parts of their style which are noticeably scummy).

[floo]

Final D2 reads

TOWNLEAN

flow trap: yes, evasive and isolated at times. However, this looks more like a playstyle. I'm reminded of a Mafia player and online friend who was able to read insightfully even while playing lurky and keeping info to themselves. I think flow trap's playstyle is aimed at benefiting town: it causes uncertainty but not chaos while opening up new lines of thought that are often abandoned (a sign that they're not intended to mislead the town).

quiet: another player I find who is helping town. Some posts I noted that legitimately don't benefit the scumteam in any way while buoying up the town. Too subtle for Mafia to care, as I'm the only player who's noticed them IIRC. Even with a non-confrontational attitude, is more influential than I'd see at first glance: I would cite him as a main reason why Fredrick isn't being lynched, why the Sal push started and stalled, why the floo wagon became very serious.

Spartan117: Contributes a lot and makes insightful points that contradict the norm. I'm starting to see the focus on Fredrick as more town being confident. If Spartan is scum, he is certainly wasting the potential to rally wagons as an alternative to Prism. Immune to big read/vote shifts, I don't think scum wants to restrict itself like this. I'm aware that my gut is townreading Spartan for pocketing-esque reasons and have filtered that out of my read.

SCUMPOOL

Order of confidence is Prism least -> Fred -> fairy most
fairyprincess69: Salsabil Faria didn't want to discuss possible scumreads on her and was overdefensive. Avoided reading Enchant, while voting Fredrick for a long time (end of D1 into all of D2 pre-sub) without making a legitimate push. As I've noted before her reads looked surface-level, the best example of this is automatically taking contributing a lot as an assumed townlean/read. fairy is playing better, and he can discuss where Sal wouldn't. I didn't notice any fairy proper posts that look exceptionally towny. Fairy proper also looked like Prism's second vote, in that his reads are similar to Prism's, and any apparent difference does not translate into a vote Prism doesn't want. Whereas quiet offers some uniqueness and just conversation that I don't see in fairy. In conclusion, Sal proper is scumlean, fairy is null, overall scumlean.

Fredrick A Campbell: Self-admitted, thoroughly conscious low effort, is really what I could say. Reads don't mean much, he literally said he forgot why he used to scumread me a day or two ago. This isn't personal style like flow trap's inherently scummy style, it's just a choice he made before the game and for the game. Not much to read, so no overt scumtells honestly, but the lurky style doesn't come with good reads/gamesolving like my lurky friend (from another site) I mentioned above.

Prism: High effort is my first impression. At the end of D2 I see a (perhaps pretended) annoyance running under his strategy, impairing it at times. I sometimes get the feeling that he imagines himself as the town superhero savior. Influential in organizing votes, reads have changed considerably - a suspicious event was the sudden flow trap threatened vote (that wasn't really an actual scumread) and backing off now. The level of effort and attempted scumhunting is impressive though and balances out the scummy deviations for a nullread. Would need to see which of his pushes bear fruit to town/scumlean this slot.

I see my fairy vote is getting nowhere. VOTE: Fredrick as I'd rather see this voted out than quiet / Spartan / myself. Will be gone for the rest of D2.

[floo]

I'm here. Been busy lately, but I've seen all the flips and finished reading D2. Will read D3 (hopefully) but here are my thoughts on the flips:

Interesting that the Mafia team here prefers to kill widely townread players instead of aggressive posters. That suggests that the scum have the confidence, determination, and perceived skill to attack and defend well in LYLO or other high-stakes situations. Perhaps because they are the aggressive players themselves.

[floo]

If you're worried about me making the NK you don't have to.

That kill is outright against

my philosophy

for playing the mafia alignment, which is

explicitly shooting people that I think won't get voted

. I'll try to dig up a few posts that confirm that if you want.

Still unclear to me why you (quiet) think the kill doesn't make sense. I get that you said you're thinking on it still but that's a strong claim.

Interesting that the

Mafia team here prefers to kill widely townread players

instead of aggressive posters. That suggests that the scum have the confidence, determination, and perceived skill to attack and defend well in LYLO or other high-stakes situations. Perhaps because they are the aggressive players themselves.

This is a nice roundabout way of calling me scum lmao, proud of you

(bold added)

hmm

[floo]

Prism please unvote. I'm writing up some explanations

[floo]

My case for myself.

I held back many of my thoughts D1 and planned to state them when it would make an impact. A lot of the time I felt like offering a little of my direction into some interactions, but ultimately decided not to in order to wait. I was more concerned about getting the style of my posts right in quoting post numbers and better grammar, which meant that I thought about them a lot before I posted them. Often after re-reading them I thought "what's the point?" and just never posted them. For example, I only stated my comments about the safebet E-1 drama on D2 and Sal's wrong conceptions of the game (e.g. town never hides/lies) at the end of D1. There were times, however, when I was more confident in a read or I felt like something had to be said, as when I speculated about Enchant's motive for claiming Mafia or pointed out early towny posts from flow trap. Questions like asking flow trap about why safebet was townread or the instant wagon was helpful were necessary for a better read. Often, minor thoughts with no impact will never be stated or just forgotten. If I have not replied to a question, my refusal to speak implies the answer (usually no). The game here seems to be more active than is usual on the site, and I found that reading the thread and stating basic opinions took more time than I had expected. I was too carefully controlling my mouth, yes, but because of my adjusting to the forum format and my wrong expectations. I'm stating my explanations myself, and for all I know a spectator non-floo me could be seeing floo as making an excuse, but I hope you will see at least why this is not unequivocally scummy.

On Day 2, I realized I needed to put more effort in. The Sal scumread wasn't all because of the overdefensiveness. On D1 there were some interactions that seem fake, town doesn't go parading around town shouting "I'm town" to every passerby, simplistic views of Mafia/reasons for reading people, Fredrick being continuously scumread for an outdated reason. I noticed the overdefensiveness before but it took a look at her ISO with that point in mind to realize how extreme it was. The counter-argument to the overdefensive Sal argument was something like a TSTBS argument or a plausible town motive argument. Both fair objections, but even if it was narrowly more likely than not for the overdefensiveness to be scum, I still had the other reasons to scumread her. I was mainly focused on finding scumreads in a pool of mostly guttowny players (versus about half the game being gutscum), because both suspicious Enchant and EZ had flipped town. The essay about overdefensiveness was prompted by objections to it, not because I thought it was the overwhelming best scumtell. It was the focus of the Sal argument, so I naturally spent more time on it. Sorry if I didn't make clear some other suspicious behavior from Sal; it escaped my mind, and I unfortunately dug myself into a hole for that. I will apologize for poor plays when they are pointed out by other players and I agree that they were poor plays. I will be honest if I was wrong in the past. I will not let humiliation get in the way of making good plays.

From the fairy replacement I was scouting around the game to help solve it. To see if my reads were real, think about the validity of my final D2 reads. I have an independent mentality, making my own reads by myself. I don't need other players' validation to make reads. I don't retract my opinions just because every player disagrees with me. Of course if that happens, I will reconsider my opinions, but if I still believe they are valid I will act on them and act on them and argue them until I can win. My variation in activity, discussed topics, and posting volume is a personal feature or problem. If you do not like that, you can speculate about everything you want but know I am putting in effort; I have nothing more elaborate to say about this variation that will convince you. When you accuse me wrongly, in good faith or bad faith, I will not flail when I have nothing more to say that will convince you. I can explain what I meant, but it seems that you will never stop speculating about every droplet of scum motive I have and still assume that I am scum. I will move on.

I could respond to every question and accusation aimed toward me in my further defense, or do a post-by-post analysis of my own posts and explain my motives, but that is pointless unless you can point out a serious issue that I haven't explained. I will focus on getting my reads right this time.

[floo]

Hello, I'm back and reading the thread. Currently at page 71, reading some later posts that catch my attention with regards to voting.

@Quiet your question on 1769. My gut can't say with too much confidence. flow trap would be the favorite in terms of gut.

Assuming Prism is scum (which I will do since if Prism is town, this game is already lost), I don't see quiet being a partner. Relying on flow trap to provide you the final 5p ELO vote, really? They'd rather keep fairy alive to vote me. Thus I see a >2/3 chance (in other words, more likely than a random choice) that either Spartan or flow is Prism's scumpartner, who is waiting in the background for quiet's 2nd vote on me, then they will have hammer me.

Spartan the more likely partner for him and Prism avoiding each other more. Spartan's reads on me feel more pockety, as in unnatural. They would only stated after the Sal push started; I don't see how me writing essays gets Spartan being silent on the floo read to "oh he's my strongest townread." flow trap, he could be an actor, but his progression from the early D1 townread on me to an eventual preference over Prism (even though both sound town), is more natural. Plus Spartan is more likely to get away with a bus. One reason to think Spartan is the town is that he has been more apt at materializing and hard-arguing a push, but he doesn't seem too confident in his push in not voting Fred until later D2 and suspecting quiet for some time.

[floo]

The first is talking about a world in which Prism is scum

The second is talking about the world at large.

I am the person who stood in the way of Salsabil slot getting voted yesterday. That slot was 100% voteable if I'm scum, and much more difficult if I'm not.

I'm at work and will get to you later quiet but I touched on Spartan/floo in and 1712/1776

In effect saying, floo's point is invalid because I am town.

[floo]

I'm not begging desperately, and I know that breaking down emotionally will only hurt me more, both in how accurate my own reads are and how other people perceive me. quiet, why you would suggest me to bawl in order to generate towncred? Keeping a level head is always going to be more important than crying, even if the latter generates a bit of towncred.

Prism looks really bad if I'm voted out today.

I think Prism being scum only makes sense if Fairy is scum though.

I'm not scumleaning Prism atm, but I find that becoming more annoyed, stressed, and determined on single-handedly saving the town creates a good excuse for leading a miselim.

...Is there a reason you started out this day instantly throwing shade on me twice after seeing Fairy nightkilled?

I realized my past reads were wrong. I needed new scumreads. IDK why you think realizing that the pattern of players unlikely to be lynched dying, instead of more controversial players who would be more risky to the scumteam, is suddenly calling you scum. Perhaps it was my bit about the aggressive pushers maybe being scum themselves - I said maybe, I wasn't confident, but it was a possible explanation. The kill might have put you under a little more suspicion, you got a problem with that? Why do you have to shut off discussion about yourself being scum, rather than working through why fairy died instead of a fearkill? Why do you take such a negative tone with it when it is a completely normal observation for anyone to have? It is a NAI post, if I can evaluate my own posts. Why could you not consider why town would have such a thought? You are the person who is not looking to make the best reads, but to prove his own engineered scumread with anything he can find. And you still accuse me of doing the same to Sal.

I didn't see Prism's strategy being wise for scum at that point. Being in the spotlight can easily backfire on scum. I'd normally expect a "town leader" to be only this widely townread with confirmation via role mechanics (e.g. un-counterclaimed power role which is guaranteed to exist or town Cop inspect) or having scumreads lynched. I also struggled to see what Prism's partner would be doing and which pairs would kill esotericzoomer. I didn't think a lot about this and just said what was on my mind (a large part from gut) at that point. Excluding flow trap and quiet, who I thought were less likely to be scum in their own right: (points that I have realized recently, which just elaborate on what I already thought at the time, are in italics)
- Fred was difficult to see continuing to post like that while having Prism in private chat and as backing in the main thread. Plus this pair would be more likely to kill Spartan, who would target Fred D2 and could hit Prism soon too.
- fairy was possible since hard buddying would be forced. If Prism survives the days and nights while continuing to pump out lots of information, everyone will know something's wrong.

There would also be a point where Prism could not feasibly invent a new scumread.

There was nothing Sal/fairy did which would inhibit Prism or suggested that the player couldn't rely on Prism's backing.
- A Spartan teammate would be inhibiting Prism's strategy. Even if Spartan's confident reads in his unique mindset didn't run contrary to Prism's confident reads, he would be pulling attention away from Prism.

Also, Spartan would have a hard time forcing himself into the same opinions as Prism, when that would eventually be forced.

The difficulty in reading Prism was that there would be no obvious behavioral tells whether town or scum except hitting scum (a towntell) or the scumpartner slipping bad (a scumtell). Players like this, in my experience, will be assumed to be town on D1 for their natural high contribution behavior, and it will take something exceptionally scummy they say or else multiple days for them to be lynched as scum. I've learned not to fall into the trap of auto-townreading them; I usually come around to townreading them once they deliver their scum lynches with the help of their reputation and experience. Unfortunately, no scum flips have happened to confirm Prism right (or super wrong for that matter); I have no idea why a groupthink townread would be this severe, especially at this late-game point, even before the vote on me made me foil.

Something about my experience with the game of Mafia. While I was at the stage where I knew the lingo and the basic tells, but not the more complex theory, a highly reputable player suggested post-game a reading strategy to me. Look at a player's overall motives and the eventual consequences of the behavior, in other words whether they are helping town or scum - this might be the only way you can guess one particular habitual lurker's alignment. This doesn't work all the time of course, for example Enchant this game was acting very anti-town but still flipped town, but it might work for that player, who was more experienced and calculated.

I tried to apply this theory to Prism in this game. In short, I found it hard to read Prism, and I wanted more time to use this theory to read him. "I don't know" was another way I could put this; I used a more elaborate sentence like "I'll read this later because I need to wait for ___..." I learned from this game to be willing to say "I don't know" directly.

No unvote, no quickhammer. VOTE: Prism. If it needed to be said, both of us are confirmed scum from each other's town! POVs.

I want Spartan to be the next vote, if you feel confident that I am town and Prism is scum, in order to show that your read on me is legitimate. And I fear scum!Spartan as Prism's partner going non-committal so that he may either quickhammer me once Prism finds another vote (most likely quiet) or bus Prism if necessary. (I'm not ordering you; this is a personal desire from a town!floo POV.)

[floo]

A collection of thoughts.

@Prism It should have been obvious from the absence of a Doctor claim anywhere that I would have claimed Vanilla Town. Why were you insistent on me claiming?

I said I townleaned on Spartan at the end of D2. It makes sense that Spartan doesn't use his potential if Prism is scum, though. I recently said Spartan was inhibiting Prism, but I realized this was surface-level because Spartan's individual pushes are more isolated and don't really affect Prism.

@quiet I agree an underlying assumption in my Sal read was that she played less defensively as town. Part of the reason was that other players argued the "possible town line," which works in varying degrees for any scumtell, instead of an underlying assumption:
- Sal is overdefensive. - This is an uncontroversial statement.
- Sal fears being scumread more than typically for town. - This might be more controversial, but everyone can agree that there is more fear or anxiety than one would expect of town in Sal.
- Sal's overdefensiveness and fear is an anomaly in her playstyle: she does not play this way as town or plays this way as scum. - If this assumption is false, the town plausibility argument is convincing. The "no town" and "only scum" are actually not the same: the former is what I am investigating if I can only find town Sal former games, and the latter is also investigated in addition to the former if I can find a scum Sal game. The one game was not enough evidence, so my assumption is less substantiated. "Even if Salsabil Faria is by habit a panicky and overdefensive player, she is acting more panicky and overdefensive than even these types of players in my experience." In my experience, drawing from the chat players who fit the overdefensive player archetype and I've played enough games with to have an idea of unique tells (like X player is more panicky as town than scum, Y player begs most players who votes them to unvote regardless of alignment).

fairy was widely townread in that I was the only person who scumread him at that point. A LYLO strategy focused on lynching fairy would rely on me voting fairy and the scumteam quickhammering: a viable strategy, but pushing me would have a greater chance of winning than relying on me to continue scumreading fairy. I'll concede that fairy was not unlynchable, but more independent than quiet and more prone to changing reads (even if just for being a recent sub). I could have phrased that better, and in retrospect fairy was lynchable though a harder push than me, not entirely unlynchable. My mistake.

You have found a better LYLO strategy than waiting for me to push fairy. Good job at realizing I was not confident enough in my fairy read to hand the game automatically to you and was still willing to hear evidence about reading the fairy slot - it's a shame you're not employing the same careful technique in the high-stakes LYLO.

Prism, you have the clear advantage in this situation and if town should have already stopped playing the "annoyed" card, and you stop thinking you can explain all my posts. I have talked about my past motives, often citing personal experience or a specific thought process you have no idea of. You're trying to irritate me at this point, while I am trying to be calm, it seems that you have learned nothing from the Sal drama while I have learned a lot.

1877 yes, you were doing postgame analysis, so you were admitting your nightkill preferences honestly. That's OK, a lot of players do that. That doesn't incriminate you specifically, why do you have to be so defensive? Realize that your annoyed tone with the 'damn' and all is counterproductive because the emotional phrase makes it unclear what you mean, whether you are arguing that it does not in fact incriminate yourself or you have realized it incriminates yourself.

[floo]

Spartan the more likely partner for him and Prism avoiding each other more. Spartan's reads on me feel more pockety, as in unnatural. They would only stated after the Sal push started; I don't see how me writing essays gets Spartan being silent on the floo read to "oh he's my strongest townread." flow trap, he could be an actor, but his progression from the early D1 townread on me to an eventual preference over Prism (even though both sound town), is more natural. Plus Spartan is more likely to get away with a bus. One reason to think Spartan is the town is that he has been more apt at materializing and hard-arguing a push, but he doesn't seem too confident in his push in not voting Fred until later D2 and suspecting quiet for some time.

You credit the spartian/prism as more viable. I find it really, really interesting that you find Spartan's reads "pockety and unnatral". This is something that was raised as a concern, that the read was a little lightweight. Prism was pushing really hard in thread for spartian to justify their TR on you (as prismTown, to try and see if spartian was trying to save their scumbuddy, which seems a tough awkward, or to try and resort; as prismScum, to shade by association, I guess? To try and push them off the read?).

I reread the Spartan iso before I realized that he did in fact have a townlean on me on D1. The way I see Prism + Spartan working, Spartan can keep defending me to maintain distance from Prism. He doesn't need to ever come to scumread me because Prism only needs your vote or flow trap's vote on me before Spartan can quickhammer. spartan changing his mind after he said his read on me was strong D2 would definitely look like scummy flip-flopping. In short, scum!Spartan doesn't have room to change his mind on me, and he doesn't need to anyway.

[floo]

Scum!Prism pushing Scumpartner Spartan to justify the TR is necessary to a hard push on me. Both players will not change their mind, at this point it's beating a dead horse and they just reiterate their former points. Even if they analyze all my posts in detail, they will just be elaborating on their former points and thinking the same in the end. Prism is less incriminated for stubbornness because I am 100% scum from his town!POV, but the stubbornness and refusing to change their mind, or refute the central point/assumption of each other's arguments.

For example, Prism's central assumption in the Sal argument is that a kind of experienced player having a very wrong assumption about how a common scumtell works is probably scum, while Spartan believes that it's possible to be wrong there. Note that there are multiple questions entailed in that:
- Is floo really experienced enough to know? (I honestly just don't want to build a playermeta on this site so early or "import" one from another site, so I've been hesitant to describe my experience in all its details.)
- Was floo's assumption "very wrong" or only partly wrong or situationally wrong?
- Is overdefensiveness a common scumtell whose theory a semi-experienced (in partly experienced, not the formal term for this site's newbie games) player should know?
- How scummy is it for a player to have wrong assumptions about the game and use them to push a scumread?
Any one of these points can be argued to vindicate me.
1. Spartan or I could say I am a chat player with different experiences on a different site, where defensiveness is seen in a different way.
2. The overdefensiveness argument could be wrong only situationally because Salsabil Faria's playermeta is unique.
3. How much experience do I have to tell the subtleties of this scumtell? Being overdefensive in itself is a lean scumtell, I remember seeing it as a scumtell in a few games. I look less often at how specifically players choose to defend themselves; this is harder but more accurate. In one game, I noticed a scum was voting a stated townread as a counterwagon instead of panicking through the use of words.
4. Players have different perspectives about how tells work, sometimes wrong in your opinion, I could argue I was situationally wrong there and there would be room for town to make that kind of mistake.

[floo]

Prism, you have the clear advantage in this situation and if town should have already stopped playing the "annoyed" card, and

you stop thinking you can explain all my posts.

I have talked about my past motives, often citing personal experience or a specific thought process you have no idea of. You're trying to irritate me at this point, while I am trying to be calm,

it seems that you have learned nothing from the Sal drama while I have learned a lot.

I am literally confirmed mafia and you're upset that I am wrong (?) about the motivations behind your posts and upset that I...am making mistakes as town? What "lessons" does scum me have to learn from the Sal drama?

If anyone wants to me to respond to the full wall I can but unless someone actually thinks I might be scum I don't see why I need to keep doing this, if he's legitimately upset that I'm like, pushing him for a reason he thinks is wrong or dumb or w/e in his mind, I'd rather just let it be.

Don't take it that literally. You are lying about my motives, I know that. It would be nice if you could be less irritating as I wish it, though it was more an indirect pointer to other players toward the flaws of how you are responding to my posts. One thing that comes to mind is when I expressed concerns about Fred, and you said something like "yikes you're preparing a push on Fred." A red herring that distracted from considering whether my read on Fred was legitimate.

I'm always upset when someone makes a mistake, but if you are consciously making a mistake to attack me, what does that say about you? Yes, I'm being kind of hypocritical here in relation to Salsabil Faria, but the difference is that it's only one scumtell I am pointing out, which does not suddenly make Prism obvious scum, while Prism takes it as the main argument for me being obvious scum. Lastly, if you were town, you would be more inclined to have learned a lesson, and I imagine that if you really were town you'd openly admit that you should have learned a lesson rather than redirecting the attention to how I phrase my ideas.

You don't need to respond to the full wall. I don't need to fully respond to anyone's wall. Why do you think you don't need to respond to the wall though because you are still perceived favorably by the town, not because you need to look at how floo is posting to convince people

and figure out his scumpartner, even if he is confirmed scum you are unsure of this and need all the info you can on this

. It's more helpful to respond to some of the new or more relevant points (why did you push me to claim + reconsidering the assumptions behind the sal argument) if you're interested in both not dying and saving time and keeping up the appearance of hunting for my partner.

I'm not upset in being disappointed in you, more annoyed. Completely normal for town. One thing I think you are implying is that if I am scum, I am upset that you are pushing me for something I did which actually isn't scummy. I agree if that this was the case, you could let it be and wait for the postgame, though if you have realized yourself that your reasons aren't so good, you better revise them to give yourself the best chance of winning.

[floo]

actually, @floo, given that from your perspective it is absolutely guaranteed that prism is scum...why aren't you voting the slot?

am I wrong that any combination where both you and prism are town = game is over? Which basically means voting Prism here doesn't change anything?

Are you really going to search for an elim on another slot? If so, which one? I can't see that being +EV

The timing of my vote on Prism didn't really matter, I preferred to include it with my eventual wall. I wanted at least 24 hours to wait, just in case Mafia couldn't be online at the same time. Especially since Spartan seems to be less active - this doesn't mean I scumread Spartan at the time, but I had to take into account the possibility. Plus there's always the chance Prism unvotes, not because he would stop scumreading me, but because we have a Doctor claim to sort.

[floo]

also at this point you are just teasing me, i'm going to have so many emotions if the mod interactions are a play.

like I know it's totally in bounds, but god.

I mean, given the concrete reads I've given this game and the concrete flips, what do you think?

I can go through the history behind me/ffery if someone wants but that's not really the concern here imo.

These posts by Prism which are like "remember I'm town!" give off the air of self-confident, even arrogant town. This post is willfully ignorant of the fact that scum can easily get all their flipped townreads correct. I recently realized that I don't remember so many of these kinds of posts on D1. He transitioned from a helpful diplomat and voice of experience on D1 to parading himself as the town savior who was getting stressed and annoyed. @quiet, do you agree? I see it as a pretended attitude change, which created an unfriendly environment (even without Prism pushing me).

[floo]

@floo, i'm doing my absolute best to engage in good faith, and consider your positions, and I really appreciate your direct responses, as that's the only way I'll be able to sort you successfully. The next thing I'd like you to comment on is why you entered day3 the way you did, and a brief expansion of divorced from the prism partner equity, what made you gut think flow trap vs. spartan.

It's my fault for failed time management. My reading strategy would be to see every flip + the EoD votes. First I had to comment on the what I read about the flip, then I was responding to old posts while reading some of the newest posts. You're probably thinking "come on!" and I'd think the same in your position.

What is prism partner equity?

flow trap is a guttowny player to me. The type of guttown read that I'm more confident about than a guttown read for high effort players, which I've talked about before. It's my gut though, I can't tell everything from it. I could go deep into introspection if I wanted, but it's not worth the time for just a gutread anyway.

[floo]

To elaborate on 2073, Prism D2 feels like he wants players to townread him, then he will get the scum and solve the game. He should realize that the better way to be townread is to first get the scum. It does not matter if the push is controversial or not, or he himself becomes controversial. Once he gets a red flip, he will be unanimously townread.

1895 @quiet What do you mean Prism is reining himself back in? On D3 he is more stridently insistent that he is town and hell-bent on the 99.9999...% sure read (oops, esotericzoomer!) than even D2. One or two "I'm restraining myself" posts are meaningless and glib. He will still have a dictator mentality. Here's a question to ask Prism, have any of your former confident scumreads been wrong?

1896 if you do not try to convince other players because you have been wrong too much in the past, you will become only the lapdog of whoever you townread. You will have had firsthand experience of this after this game regardless of the winner. You have room to be wrong in Mafia, and there are no real-life consequences if you mess up. Learning how to argue your reads will only improve your read accuracy: don't run away.

Hey Prism, if I wanted one answer. I want to know why you kept insisting on me to claim, what was your thought process?

1908: 1872 was obviously low effort. I only needed low effort to make a point about your logic. The fact that you're "IDK" when you're scumreading me tells something about how legitimate your scumread is, when you cannot find a plausible scumpartner for me. In fact, you are trying not to offend any one of the two quiet/flow trap who you need to vote you, and instead you shift the blame to Spartan who conveniently won't vote me anyway unless to quickhammer.

According to you I am counting on three-way LYLO. If that was so and I was scum, I would be keeping silent almost entirely, trying to out the Doctor, and focusing exclusively on you. Instead, I am doubly confirming you as town and

not

outing the Doctor. Plus, If I flipped red, I would have already confirmed flow and quiet as town from prior interactions on D1 & D2, and I would be again confirming both as town from D3.

[floo]

On D3 he is more stridently insistent that he is town and hell-bent on the 99.9999...% sure read (oops, esotericzoomer!) than even D2.

This is invalid due to a different subject, do you have evidence of Prism doing it?

Also, this is invalid because it implies that they're wrong as town

"obvious scum" went to "I am not never unvoting this slot." Prism implying "I'm so town" more is based on what I've felt over the game, I don't have the time to do a post-by-post counting analysis. Why would a town as experienced as Prism, who undoubtedly has had confident scumreads gone wrong, be so confident in this game based on behavioral analysis alone?

In retrospect, I should have not written that explanation when I switched my RVS vote to flow. The difference is that I was defensive in my image-consciousness in one post, while image-consciousness permeates Prism's strategy.

No, you do not need to be widely trusted to get a controversial wagon shot. You need only to be trusted enough to get enough players to vote with you, plus your arguments should be good enough to get some other players who might scumread you to join. If Prism can get 3 other players to vote with him, he will have succeeded in getting a shot. And he will have 99% confirmed himself as town in the process too.

[floo]

Interesting that both people who scumread me (Prism, quiet) and me think the most likely scum other from Prism/floo is Spartan. Does this make Spartan more likely to be scum if multiple town FoS him and his Mafia partner is correspondingly taking steps to bus him?

[floo]

Interesting that both people who scumread me (Prism, quiet) and me think the most likely scum other from Prism/floo is Spartan. Does this make Spartan more likely to be scum if multiple town FoS him and his Mafia partner is correspondingly taking steps to bus him?

I'm sorry, is this a Elim Spartian Tonight proposal? Is that what I'm hearing here?

No, I believe it is bad strategy. I won't bet on Spartan flipping Mafia roleblocker (even assuming he is scum, a 1/4 chance. More like a 1/2 chance if you can find a reason to believe a Doctor/roleblocker exists) and Doctor successfully protects (a no kill is not a sure help, either).

[floo]

On D3 he is more stridently insistent that he is town and hell-bent on the 99.9999...% sure read (oops, esotericzoomer!) than even D2.

This is invalid due to a different subject, do you have evidence of Prism doing it?

Also, this is invalid because it implies that they're wrong as town

"obvious scum" went to "I am not never unvoting this slot." Prism implying "I'm so town" more is based on what I've felt over the game, I don't have the time to do a post-by-post counting analysis. Why would a town as experienced as Prism, who undoubtedly has had confident scumreads gone wrong, be so confident in this game based on behavioral analysis alone?

In retrospect, I should have not written that explanation when I switched my RVS vote to flow. The difference is that I was defensive in my image-consciousness in one post, while image-consciousness permeates Prism's strategy.

No, you do not need to be widely trusted to get a controversial wagon shot. You need only to be trusted enough to get enough players to vote with you, plus your arguments should be good enough to get some other players who might scumread you to join. If Prism can get 3 other players to vote with him, he will have succeeded in getting a shot. And he will have 99% confirmed himself as town in the process too.

No, from your POV saying they having 99% confidence reflects Zoomer, implies that you're they're town

And why didn't you just say that from the start instead of saying multiple times and then discarding it when you had to accuse someone for the same thing

Not a correct comparison. I was pointing out how 99% confidence for pure behavioral tells is unwise, especially with EZ's misread.

I don't understand your second line.

[floo]

It's my fault for failed time management. My reading strategy would be to see every flip + the EoD votes. First I had to comment on the what I read about the flip, then I was responding to old posts while reading some of the newest posts. You're probably thinking "come on!" and I'd think the same in your position.

What is prism partner equity?

flow trap is a guttowny player to me. The type of guttown read that I'm more confident about than a guttown read for high effort players, which I've talked about before. It's my gut though, I can't tell everything from it. I could go deep into introspection if I wanted, but it's not worth the time for just a gutread anyway.

I wanted to know your position on {flow trap, spartian}, unrelated to your belief about who would make a better partner for Prism, so therefore not including partner equity in your assessment of the other two. You gave me that, so ty!

I feel the same gu ttowny way on the slot, frankly.

flow trap + Spartan, in terms of behavior, would pursuing a variation of "avoid the spotlight." flow trap and Spartan have involved themselves in chaos and conflict, yes, but the points of their reads go ignored by other players. They've avoided highly townreading or scumreading each other.

One of the biggest threats to them would be the townread loop of Prism + quiet + fairy, which they would have to focus on breaking down after it formed on D2. I'd see them preferring to kill Prism, however, because the loop depends on him. Also, Spartan would have tried to join the loop or cause conflict within it.

About nightkills, esotericzoomer would not be a suboptimal kill, since he would cause the chaos needed for the team to function. The only reason I see flow trap + Spartan killing EZ is a power role hunt. No one has pointed out any reason to believe EZ was power role, or so much more likely to be a power role than other players to justify the NK, so I've always thought about the kill as not a power role hunt. Who knows though, scum are always watching for power role tells.

fairyprincess69 makes more sense for flow trap scum, but it's not worth it in favor of Prism. As a recent replacement, fairy could change his mind. Prism's language to flow trap was much rougher, in that he said he would push flow trap for basically policy and not regret it if he flipped town. Prism also needs to die to prevent the townread loop as I've said. If I was in flow trap's situation, I'd be more inclined to kill Prism, and as a bonus the NK suspicion would be directed to me.

In conclusion, a Spartan + flow trap team would have made too many suboptimal plays for it to make sense. (You made me contemplate this pairing more, as I hadn't considered this scumteam with more than a passing thought before.)

[floo]

Sorry, floo, I meant i wanted your opinions on the two slots, not them two as partners. They cannot be partners.

Do you think Prism is town?

lol I forgot they would've quickhammered at this point

I think I've said why I think the most likely to least likely Prism partners are Spartan -> flow -> quiet. My concern for the rest of the day (both real life and in-game) is to win the crossvote.

What does the second paragraph question mean? If I took it literally it would be a joke

[floo]

Haven't read private threads + I'm still reading page 78

Should reveal if Doctor/Roleblocker's identities if existed + night actions. Am interested in what result EZ would have gotten on N1 had he not died.

Well played to the scumteam. @quiet & flow trap, thank you for your effort on D3.

[floo]

I'm open to playing more games on this site. The question would be my motivation, as a lot of times during this game I felt very apathetic and just wanted it to end and at other times I was spewing out lots of content.

I asked Prism why he pushed me to claim. My theory was that Prism looked like he was baiting me to claim Doctor. A scum Doctor claim would be counterproductive for the town (stirring chaos and all) unless a town Doctor existed, so it would be expected for a town Doctor would push me for this.