Open 804: Popcorn Mafia Redux [Game Over!]

[Dunnstral]

Hello

[Dunnstral]

You also wouldn't be my first choice for a shot anyways.

Based on what, 11 and 15?
Or do you already have an idea of what type of person you want to shoot?
You don't have to answer me

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Norfolk Boy1

My scumreads are norfolk and Imperium

Norfolk had strange/lamisty posts

Imperium is playing different from when they were town/they have a lot of filler and it makes me feel bad about them

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Norfolk Boy1

My scumreads are norfolk and Imperium

Norfolk had strange/lamisty posts

Imperium is playing different from when they were town/they have a lot of filler and it makes me feel bad about them

Are you comparing me to the beginning of last game or at about page 30 when you replaced in?

When I replaced in

[Dunnstral]

If you were scum how would you approach choosing the first gunbearer?

Ninja
Hi Cakez

Wheme this question is for you

Do you want my opinion on this?

[Dunnstral]

on 88, not 95

[Dunnstral]

Feel free.

Realistically the first gunbearer is going to die at some point

After this point town gets to choose all the gunbearers (unless godfather is hit)

So by choosing you they've made it so you'll die at some point

[Dunnstral]

Assuming no secret alts?

You Cakez dunn Norfolk. The former three have seen me in pretty dead on games. Norfolk lost to town me (we were competing day one wagons and he died)

Is this your list of who you think picks you or something else?

[Dunnstral]

It might be instructive to see the other half of both hydras add their lists (unless they both combined their lists already), and make this page a nice easy one-stop-shop for scumhunting after a red flip or two narrows things down.

What lists?

[Dunnstral]

Hi all.

FOS Norfolk. Their 2 posts so far are slightly scummy, and also going silent after people pointed this out makes it even more suspicious. Could be explained by timezones or whatever but, that's some bayesian evidence imo.

I initially thought Imperium scummy because their early posts were fluffy to the point of spam-like, which reduces readability, which I don't see why town would do. But they seemed to post more substance after the first couple pages.

MUSHSHAGANA seemed town initially because they put in a lot of apparent effort, but I really don't like the reasoning against Whemestar. My understanding is that MUSHSHA's argument is that Whemestar is playing like a bad town. It just so happens that with these game mechanics, a bad town isn't really good strategy for scum to imitate, outside of WIFOM. So I don't understand their suspicion on Wheme.

I think some people said they read Dunnstral as town? I don't get why.

I lean town on Wheme for reasons related to the interaction with MUSHSHA mentioned above.

Anyone else I haven't mentioned are either lurkers or haven't caught my attention in any direction yet. Normally lynching lurkers isn't bad at all. Not sure if shooting is good though.

Regarding mechanics: yeah I agree with MUSHSHA's point that we should not try to make this game emulate one with normal votes and lynches. If we shoot the most suspicious person it kind of has a double benefit: either we get scum or the wrong read gets confirmed as town.

This post kinds of bothers me. It feels like STT felt they needed to comment on all of the "major" things that happened. When that's not really ever a necessary thing to do.

I don't like the dig at me

[Dunnstral]

Also calling people "lurkers" this early is laughable

[Dunnstral]

I just noticed something interesting while looking at STT's site post history

[Dunnstral]

It appears that STT is a hydra account

[Dunnstral]

I don’t think I’ve posted anything of substance.

I agreed with this until I remembered 121

[Dunnstral]

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

Who said that?

[Dunnstral]

I really don't care about who does this (the participants can even do it themselves, I /really/ don't care), but I'd like to get opinions on the Dunn/Imperium interactions in general. There's a couple of them and they have some actual substance to them. I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to see what other people have to say. FTR, I'm not looking for alignment related opinions, just trying to figure out what other people see happening there.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

Good news I am town

Bad news I may need a minute to not be tilted about TM

Yeah.

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Another bad Norfolk post
They're basically saying don't scumhunt, it's netflix's job.

The middle of their post is grandstanding about something that didn't happen

[Dunnstral]

Its more like he plays the same every game he is in and I townread a lot of people currently so he is probably not town.

I have trouble seeing how you can townread enough people to poe him out at this point in time

Let’s play a game.

Everyone can save three people who do you save and why?

I'm not scumreading Duchess right now, I'd save there because there seems to be some consideration

At this point in time it's hard for me to come up with three people to save vs people I'm lukewarm about and don't really care

Rlotus is gut towny, no this isn't a very strong read

MUSHAGANA feels like town/out of their scum range, but I don't know them or how they play. It just feels like this is them as town.

[Dunnstral]

Meanwhile, there's exactly and precisely one shot I'd take. But I'll keep that out of sight unless you actually want it.

There's no point in keeping things a secret.

For Dunnstral: Why was it a "dig"? I genuinely want to know why some players said they had a town read, because I don't have that read. Why do you think I was digging at you?

I read it that way because you said I shouldn't be townread but didn't offer any other thoughts

I may have been quick on the draw in coming to conclusions

On the other hand, MUSH's scumhunting effort is also convincing at face value, but this is overshadowed by the actual logic of some of what he has said, which I don't think is very town-like logic, which makes me think he's just good at faking effort.

Like what?

[Dunnstral]

The newbie game we played he sorta just said 'yeah I'll self-vote to resolve myself' after being run up. Energy isn't something he relies upon, maybe that's evident in just his avatar alone. How do you think partners would be treating right now in a hypothetical situation of scum?

It's easy to bus in this setup

You don't actually have to pressure with a vote

[Dunnstral]

There's plenty of points in keeping things a secret right now. For example, doing so lets me know that you don't like that I did it and want me to stop.

Scum aren't in a position to act even if you reveal secret information, you're just hiding things from town at this point

I'm just saying.

[Dunnstral]

MUSHAGANA feels like town/out of their scum range, but I don't know them or how they play. It just feels like this is them as town.

How can you say they're out of their scum range if you don't know how they play?

Just a feeling. This feels like a town player

Maybe this read is dumb

[Dunnstral]

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

I think what you perceive to be scummy just turns into mutual disagreement. I find myself saying this more often but it does remain to be true. I think some things Norfolk has done is scummy, I pointed out one instance when I was explaining why I advocated his shot. I don't think

everyone

thinks he's scum actually, if I were accounting based on Ctrl+F who-mentioned-norfolk-as-good-shot it'd be like.. 3 people. First: What do I gain as scum to advocate a shot on someone like this so strongly. Secondly: You answered you didn't know how scum would be treating him so. Where does the connection lie with me being scummy/misguided, and does this equate to you believing he's town?

I'm also reading you as not wanting to put in big effort in this setup

Which is fair, the 14 day deadline is overkill too

[Dunnstral]

We're now at the point of the game where somebody is rabidly defending somebody who's barely posted

Like, can you really townread norfolk that hard? Why can't sircakez/unwnd be bussing? etc

[Dunnstral]

We're now at the point of the game where somebody is rabidly defending somebody who's barely posted

Like, can you really townread norfolk that hard? Why can't sircakez/unwnd be bussing? etc

[Dunnstral]

I think after last game saying 'just shoot norfolk' is very reasonable from unwnd

[Dunnstral]

I think after last game saying 'just shoot norfolk' is very reasonable from unwnd

I don't!

We're thinking of different games

[Dunnstral]

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

I think what you perceive to be scummy just turns into mutual disagreement. I find myself saying this more often but it does remain to be true. I think some things Norfolk has done is scummy, I pointed out one instance when I was explaining why I advocated his shot. I don't think

everyone

thinks he's scum actually, if I were accounting based on Ctrl+F who-mentioned-norfolk-as-good-shot it'd be like.. 3 people. First: What do I gain as scum to advocate a shot on someone like this so strongly. Secondly: You answered you didn't know how scum would be treating him so. Where does the connection lie with me being scummy/misguided, and does this equate to you believing he's town?

I'm also reading you as not wanting to put in big effort in this setup

Which is fair, the 14 day deadline is overkill too

Actually this offends me, I'm trying much harder this game because it's at a readable pace and I don't have to skim to the point I get fucking bored. My reads feel much more concrete and these past towngames either one or two things have happened

1) I die literally n1 for some reason
2) Wait that's it

I meant from recent posts, not your iso, you shouldn't feel offended

[Dunnstral]

I wasn't under the impression that you had concrete reads though?

[Dunnstral]

Correct me if I'm wrong; your reads are norfolk scuma and duchess scum?

[Dunnstral]

I forgot Dunn and NM

Cakez
STT
Mush
--
RLotus
Imperium
Wheme
Dunn
N_M
--
Norfolk
Rockhopper
Duchess

I'm at:

Mush
STT
--
RLotus
Duchess
Imperium
Cakez
Unwnd
N_M
Rockhopper
--
Wheme
Norfolk

[Dunnstral]

Also, Notty and I have other shared scumreads so we are probably shooting one of those.

Can you share them before you fire, in case you die?

[Dunnstral]

I don't agree with Duchess being scum for what they're being accused of. I liked their rebuttal.

[Dunnstral]

Actually Rockhopper should be more Null. I'm not scumreading any of their posts but they have little content

[Dunnstral]

Dunn read list is bad

Why?

[Dunnstral]

This is a game where my number of scumreads doesn't match the number of scum

[Dunnstral]

Definitely not loving the way that Lotus is pushing Duchess.

I'd need to take a closer look at the push itself

I was focused on Duchess reaction which seemed fine

I don't understand Unwnd' read there

[Dunnstral]

Why does everyone townread Mush?

It's a high effort = town sort of read from me.

I do think she made some good points. There's a lot of stuff I admittedly haven't read because it started getting wordy and into analysis I really wasn't interested in

[Dunnstral]

Dunn read list is bad

Why?

Is everyone in the middle null?

No

Near the top is townleans, near the bottom is scumleans

[Dunnstral]

Oh, and one more thing. Anyone who townreads STT, I'm going to be looking through the lists. I would very much like you to explain yourselves. In great, exhaustive detail. Really beat the hell out of your belief that STT is town, /challenge yourself/, because I will throw down a /solid/ wager that you are wrong. Say, winner gets to control the loser's first shot when they inevitably get the gun (because this is gonna look /real/ bad for whoever is wrong, and they shouldn't trust themselves to hit shit anyway). I'm not joking or exaggerating, STT looks awful here, and you can check Death Curse to see that I'm right. ISO Zdenek, and Ctrl+F "MUSH". Recognize that Zdenek was replaced by Frederick A Campbell, who was our very first scum kill in Death Curse, and opened the door to red flip city. I am putting my bet down, I want anyone who thinks I'm wrong to put their money where their mouth is and/or eat lead.

I'm open for reconsideration. I do like their posts so far, I don't see how what happened in death curse is relevant here though since they're different people. To be clear, I'm not familiar with what happened in death curse.

I did like STT's posts, starting from the second one. The way he is looking at norfolk being above baseline for scum resonates with me

[Dunnstral]

I think we've entered the part of the game where people are arguing in circles about the same things

[Dunnstral]

I think we've entered the part of the game where people are arguing in circles about the same things

That’s why I said we need someone to get shot

Yes I agree

Would like Netflix and Chill to share their reads before shooting, even if it's right before they shoot

[Dunnstral]

I’m currently wrestling with my stack rank not accounting for me getting the gun and that concerns me a ton.

What does this mean?

[Dunnstral]

I think Tammycho is a bad shot and I'd be willing to explain it if you want me to

I think it's reasonably likely to hit town as well. Not sure that it's a

bad

shot though

[Dunnstral]

I don't think firing based on how good they'd be with the gun is a good strategy

[Dunnstral]

Don't shoot immediately please, I have things to say as well

[Dunnstral]

So the swing to Rtlotus came out of nowhere for me when I was reading, all I remember previously is someone pointing to not liking their push on Duchess

I'm not really seeing a progression from Unwnd here, for example.

I am going to advocate that we shoot Norfolk Boy next. I understand that you scumread Duchess - we should talk more about this, I think Norfolk has a high likelihood of being scum here and each new post they make is just bad, bluntly.

It's important to think about what scum are doing here. Do they get into 1v1s with someone who is town... or do they play back and avoid making waves? There's a lot of people right now who don't have big opinions, or are scumreading someone who is likely to shoot elsewhere (looking at cakez scumreads here).

I'm not sure that 96 whole hours is necessary, but at least 48 would be nice

[Dunnstral]

i didnt even see it and was so confused on why trhread was locked

They said they were shooting but I didn’t realize they meant right then.

I don't mind the timing of the shot, but I feel like the target came out of left field and we didn't really talk about it and then they shot

There were people egging that shot on. Unwnd what do you mean that rllotus shot helps you resolve duchess? If duchess is your top scumspect I don't understand why you go for rllotus there

[Dunnstral]

For one, the bolded in the above quote freaks me the fuck out because of the magnitude of the swing.

This and the stuff following it is a good point

[Dunnstral]

There were people egging that shot on.

...Like who?

You and Imperium.

You because of what you wrote, Imperium because they suddenly brought up nacho's suspicion on rtlotus right when Netflix and Chill was saying they were thinking about shooting

[Dunnstral]

I'm not really seeing a progression from Unwnd here, for example.

Where in any of my posts did it say that I thought he was scum, all I mentioned that is that the shot would be 'interesting'

You're speaking like a politician right now

[Dunnstral]

Also, I remember a few people expressing that rtlotus/duchess were both unreadable because they were only talking to each other, and that they were hard reads etc. Not sure what to make of that

[Dunnstral]

That shot was solid for cleaning the gamestate up fast

How does rtlotus being town clear up the gamestate?

[Dunnstral]

What's your previous experience with Rockhopper? Is it multiple games or just one?
Do you have anything that bothers you about Duchess other than what Lotus pointed out? What bothers you about Wheme?

Why is Not Mafia "reserved" instead of "lurkfucking"?

Could you rephrase your STT suspicion for me again? What are your opinions on Dunnstral - I know he hasn't posted a lot but what do you think of the positions that he's taken in the game thus far?

At this point people are saying I'm not posting a lot to mess with me. How do you bring me up after wheme, not mafia, stt, while talking to norfolk, and I'm the one who's not posting?

I am posting.

[Dunnstral]

Get in line, Wheme. STT goes first.

PEDIT: Dunn, I literally explained it in the same fucking post dude. Do not play these games with me.

No but it doesn't make sense to me. If nobody had hard reads on them, how does this help?

[Dunnstral]

And I think it's pretty natural to give opinions on the gunbearer's preferred target after he reveals it - fuck else would you want us to do?

I don't think answering this question falls within the scope of my argument

[Dunnstral]

Because now we know all of Lotus's interactions were genuine, this gives us meat to dig into their interactions with and see if the other side of them looks genuine as well. Stop being deliberately obtuse.

PEDIT: Aimed at Dunn. Seriously, this is some bullshit aimed at demoralizing and creating chaos in the town. Someone else has to see this, tell me I'm not alone.

I'm going to need pointed examples of what was cleared up and what it means for the town.

Stop accusing me of demoralizing the town, I'm clearly not doing that

[Dunnstral]

I definitely see it MUSH, it was such an angled read on two people who just happen to be there at the time Netflix shot his gun off. Let me spin this however, what do you feel is more likely Dunn

1) Two potential scum "egging on" a shot from the gunbearer
2) Scum sitting back and letting town misfire into themselves while playing hero the moment the bullet is fired

Probably 2, honestly. That doesn't mean there's can't be some scum who are active this game.

I'm not saying you and imperium are both scum. I don't even think it's imperium, I think you're kind of suspect this game, in the sense that you'd be something like my fifth or sixth most preferred shot in a game with five scum

[Dunnstral]

I actually brought this up just a bit ago too. Scum aren't going to want to get into conflicts in this setup

[Dunnstral]

What did I do to get ire?

I'm not plunging the town into chaos, norfolk really needs to die here, pretty much everyone is scumreadng them or nullreading them, they might even be the godfather at this point but it's still worth shooting there honestly

[Dunnstral]

Why do I have "no right" to say anything?

Because I wasn't around for the ~30 minutes when they suddenly came in, announced their scumread, and then fired?

[Dunnstral]

Wheme, as far as I know /no one/ scumread Lotus? What is your deal, guy? I literally said /no one had hard reads on Lotus/. Stop the bullshit immediately, you will not get me tangled in my own words like you're trying to do.

HEY MAYBE THATS WHY IT WAS AN AWFUL SHOT

But bringing this up brings us no closer to finding scum, does it?

No but I feel like I have to when Im getting called scum for saying it was a bad shot.

Do you? I thought you wanted to be shot

[Dunnstral]

Where was your input before RLotus was given the gun?

That was my input

Like I said, I wasn't here for the ~30 minutes where the shot happened, and Netflix had made it clear that they didn't want to shoot Norfolk for various reasons. I happen to think those reasons are wrong but I'm not going to keep bringing it up

[Dunnstral]

So...why are you suddenly so anxious?

I'm not?

I'm reiterating my stance from before the shot, while also commenting on things that just happened

And I'm calling you KIND OF scummy, and your insistance that I'm pushing both you and imperium is scummy

[Dunnstral]

What did I do to get ire?

I'm not plunging the town into chaos,

norfolk really needs to die here, pretty much everyone is scumreadng them or nullreading them,

they might even be the godfather at this point but it's still worth shooting there honestly

Where was your input before RLotus was given the gun? My problem right now does not stem from reacting to the shot, rather the conclusions immediately drawn from them. Even if it's my own perspective, with a greenflip this early on I find myself not going into 'yeah shoot this guy next immediately woot woot just fire em off' I'd consider reeling it back in and determining where we apparently went wrong, yet you're already insistent on saying nonsense like Me+Imperium goading Netflix. I don't really understand where you got this point and you yourself have already agreed that scum probably didn't want anything to do with the shot. So...why are you suddenly so anxious?

I'm not asking for a shot immediately

But I am asking for us to get Norfolk

Duchess can also be discussed while we're holding the gun.

[Dunnstral]

Cakez I don't think it's in Tammycho's cards to continually battle your logic head-on, I think they'd rather handwave you instead of trying to appeal to your own reasoning

So if you want to bury them you should do it more precisely, because right now the back+forth does nothing

scum post

Hey netflix and chill if you're watching remember how you thought mush was fanning the flames?

This is what fanning the flames looks like.

I agree because they also said they agreed with Mush that I was "demoralizing town" and that doesn't really make sense

[Dunnstral]

Cakez I don't think it's in Tammycho's cards to continually battle your logic head-on, I think they'd rather handwave you instead of trying to appeal to your own reasoning

So if you want to bury them you should do it more precisely, because right now the back+forth does nothing

scum post

Hey netflix and chill if you're watching remember how you thought mush was fanning the flames?

This is what fanning the flames looks like.

I agree because they also said they agreed with Mush that I was "demoralizing town" and that doesn't really make sense

No I think you're doing exactly what I said. You're giving comeuppance about an event you had no hand in

Sorry what are you accusing me of

I think my reaction is being exaggerated in that I'm mainly looking at what I think is suspicious and not really saying "wow, you guys are so bad"

[Dunnstral]

And I think mush thinks I'm doing the latter when I'm not

[Dunnstral]

I don't like

Dunnstral

right now. I fear this feeling however because the last game we played I didn't like him either. There was an intricate tell I provided with Dunn for the longest time and I think I forgot it. It seems that somewhere we both got bad at reading each other because we shared mutual scumreads. I have less of a confirmation bias feeling towards Dunn and more like an annoying twitch. That statement made about 'scum wanting to avoid conflict' did have truth to it, but I think that is not the full representation of the game, nor is it relevant. I think this game has been quite scrappy, even if they are just minor events (outside of the blatant obvious ones like Imperium v. Cakez) so for Dunn to say this to me seems like he's giving this game a cursory glance and nothing else. The pop-in from him after RLotus just furthered the agitation, and the only response he had to my complaints was 'well I responded 30 minutes after' as if the time responded matters? You could even say 'avoiding conflict' would be the most apt description of his play right now.

How am I avoiding conflict? It feels like half the lobby (of the portion that is actively playing) jumped on me after I gave my opinion

You saying I'm avoiding conflict is what feels disingenuous, because it seems fully untrue? Looking at the rest of my play as well.

The game being scrappy doesn't mean scum are avoiding conflict, it means there's likely a good amount of scum in the slots that have been lurking all day.

I didn't say I responded 30 minutes after. I said the rtlotus shot came into consideration and then concluded all in a span of 30 minutes, of which I was not there. And you're trying to hang that over my head as if I can't say anything afterwards because I wasn't there at the time

[Dunnstral]

If he doesn't like being VT or not confident then like is it justified to give him a gun?

Who cares if he wants a gun or not

He's scummy so shoot him, don't invent reasons/bend over backwards to talk yourself out of scumreading someone who is both scummy and barely playing

[Dunnstral]

I'm going down for the night. One last question.

Where the hell is Dunnstral today?

What do you mean?

[Dunnstral]

Unwnd doesn't your tell have to do with the way I approach my scumreads? Didn't you think I got stuck on my scumreads when I'm scum?

[Dunnstral]

Alright actually:

If we shoot wrong two more times, we lose

With that context I can accept not wanting to give norfolk the gun if th ey're town

[Dunnstral]

i'm reading in real time but not taking notes or anything of the like since i'm disorganized. i can see there was mention of it previously but it was never really fleshed out

in general this game, i've liked a lot of what you've said and what you've been doing, like how you really seemed to want to interact with norfolk and actually get a read on him rather than just call for his head like half the players in the game, but if i had to raise a point of concern it seems like you've been difficult to pin down to a concrete stance for a lot of the game. that's not a crime necessarily, my reads tend to waver a lot which is why i hate committing myself to lists but in a setup like this, there's a lot of scum, i'd expect some strong scumreads because you can pretty much close your eyes and throw a dart and still hit scum.

so i want to ask, what's your opinion of norfolk after you interacted with him, or tried to? why's duchess a scumread for you? why's unwnd scum? why is MUSH your top townread?

(i'm still a few pages behind where i first subbed in in my readthrough so i may have missed some stuff, apologies if i'm making you repeat stuff, this is just the impression i'm geting)

It was never fleshed out, you're correct, but i find it not

notable

but odd that you didn't recognize that it was part of a conversation about players that had started at 710. Yes, he at that point said he was thinking lotus, and I restated my previously stated points - my little pings that I wanted to reread and flesh out, which I would have done regardless of who he said. We were in a conversation, one in which he had just stated not too long before that he wasn't going to be shooting right away. (Just double checked this; he said he wanted to give us a chance to get our thoughts out there the night before.) Anyway, there was no indication that he was shooting right then until after that point when he said he was shooting and gave his reads list. I get Dunnstral in the moment thinking it looked that way, but I guess I don't really understand how you don't recognize it for the conversation that it was.

For what it's worth, I didn't even think he was going to be shooting right that moment when he said he was informed they were shooting. I thought that we were still going to talk more. (I realize this part here is pretty meaningless from an outside pov who truly has the above thought, but.)

Nacho feels pretty good about norfolk being scum. I think he's pretty likely to be scum. I'm still trying to make sense of duchess, but I think my original theory on the people, like cakez, who had given reasoning I disliked on Norfolk being scum might have been wrong. unwnd mentioned that scum probably were more likely to slip norfolk into their scum reads if scum and dunnstral mentioned that scum probably don't want much conflict this game, and that has me shifting my assumptions some. I only played this setup once before at my homesite, and after giving the gun to the strongest player my team bussed the fuck out of me. It lost us one at the start of the game, but I spent day one working to make my partners not look like my partners and vice versa. We almost won the game that way; we would have but the last partner standing just flaked from lylo.

ANYWAY, I think my original thought on how scum would behave was based on my only experience, but dunnstral's no conflict point makes a lot of sense to me. And while I do think unwnd has a point, I'm not sure how much i want to agree with that because bad distancing is still an issue that will get someone shot. Does that make sense? This is a lot to say that I'm trying to reorganize my thoughts a bit, and I had to step away from the game before I unleashed.

I was concerned that Norfolk's pop back in after the cakez/me thing was a bit appeasing of cakez. Cakez did misrep that point of Norfolk's so it was odd to me that he wrote him off as misguided town at that point. When he came back he had him as scum, which had me wondering if scum were going to kind of float cakez as scum to hopefully get him shot because if town the game losing shot is Cakez shooting us. (Part of me wonders if this is what Duchess was doing too) I've haven't really felt great about anything he's posted. Except I did have one little thing I wondered, but I think it's probably stupid. I used that questionnaire as support for him being either nervous town or scum at the beginning of the game, but he came in and corrected me. He told me he lied in that post, and he loves being scum and having a role - he finds VT boring. Now does scum point out the mistake I made, or does he let me continue thinking he'd be nervous regardless? I guess yes, because maybe he wants to point out how much he loves being scum. I also wondered about the shifting position to being ready to get the gun.

Why does everyone townread Mush?

I should go to sleep. I saw the first part of your name and read nacho, and was about to remind you that I literally just explained that and my fears about it before realizing it was you guys.

I, in part, and town leaning her because some of the ways she questioned and talked to whemestar and me reminds me a lot of me as town a long time ago in a way that I couldn't really accomplish as scum. This is a dangerous reason to townread someone though I know because this has bit me in the ass before. Just because I have limitations in my ability to play scum because drawing scum sucks doesn't mean someone else will.

Other than that, I kind of liked the way she's described her play style and what she looks for. Does that make sense. I'm a sucker for self-meta though, so that probably won't be a strong reason for anyone else.

The little kind of setting traps? or little things that give her information, I've also kind of liked in a way.

It's not a strong read because I don't think my reasons are very solid. I didn't agree with her whemestar points or really part of the cake one about the voting.

OH wait I liked her reaction to ABR calling her obvtown. In the moment, it was a post that just felt good.

My MUSH read started there and just really kept continuing. I've pretty much liked the majority of her posts down to the descriptions of how she looks at the game. I liked the way she was certain and ready to go after STT, which literally moved at the same moment that Nacho started having doubts about STT. We might just be the next best synchronized skating team.

Nacho also thinks unwnd is more likely to be scum than I do, but I do suspect him. ABR didn't do anything that ABR usually does regardless of his alignment, so I didn't have a read there pre-unwnd at all. The problem I've had is the kind of mediator (sort of) play style he's adopted this game. But it doesn't even feel like that because at points it's felt like it was fanning the flames of me and cakez rather than actually mediate. Though as I just looked back for an example, I see that I misread his original point in 503 so hrm. And I think I misread 856 too. I thought he was saying that we were handwaving cakez, when it's felt the other way around, but I don't think that's what he was saying. Let me come back to this.

To be clear I'm not saying every scum is avoiding conflict

And I'm not saying me being in conflict makes me town (I'm just refuting unwnd saying I'm not)

I'm saying that a good number of scum, in the range of 2-3, are people who are avoiding making waves with other people

I didn't have specific people in mind when I said that

[Dunnstral]

I have no particular issue with your Wheme or Dunn scumreads, I even agree with the substance of them, I just have some suspicions that I need to follow up on before I can sort them properly. Not giving too much away, but here's a riddle for you: who do they agree with? (Note: I do not know the answer to this yet.)

I mean, I feel I've made my stances pretty clear

[Dunnstral]

I thought you meant this day phase of which I've definitely been active. I don't need to explain my absence from this thread, it does feel like I'm being singled out here. The pressure order stuff is nonsense.

[Dunnstral]

and then out of here. Like a shot. No sticking around for interactions, just in and out, quick and clean.

Literally nobody responded to me or even acknowledged my posts

[Dunnstral]

Nothing

My timing last time was a coincidence, this time because I was addressed

[Dunnstral]

You spend a lot of time running your mouth but have no reason to do it

This aggression comes from scum

Town unwnd doesn't play like this, they're much more analytical, here they throw people in a scum pile and call it good

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, what would you say your most preferred shot/shots are at the moment?

Right now, still Norfolk. I think we need to get rid of slanker scum slots, this slot has been scummy independent of activity, and the only defense is activity

[Dunnstral]

@rlotus i volunteer to get shot

Who would you shoot?

[Dunnstral]

If Duchess ends up being town, I think it is something like unwnd/SirCakez/NM +2 (Dunn and STT maybe?)

I've been calling Duchess town though... and this read seems inconsistent with your stance in 1266, so what gives?

Dunn can be mafia with anyone really. He isn't putting any effort into solving. His only conviction is on Norfolk and imo this is the absolute worst time to resolve that slot, making him shoot in e-lo. Looks a bit better if norfolk is mafia I suppose. Dunn is quite null to me.

I have more reads than just Norfolk, though... have you not been paying attention?

look there's a reason i went on this tangent to begin with. it's because i was composing this while i was catching up:



this is, to the best i could manage, a record of who people were calling scum on day 1. i threw this together becausein a game with no votes, data matters, accountability matters, and i want a RECORD of who was calling for who to be shot

that imperium line? not an accident. when i was filling it out i couldn't any sense for WHO they actually scumread, which is part of what disturbed me. seriously. go back and read day 1 and try to tell me who their scumreads were. instead we got posts like this:

That means I don’t have any of the people I could see picking me low enough on it.

Tammy are you still around? Do you think this is a dumb rabbit hole to dig into?

I don't know. It's something I've been trying to figure out myself. I thought that if you were given the gun purposefully, they might have been planning to kill us the first chance they got based on potential overlap.

I didn't give you the gun.

Cakez is I don't know. He's either town who decided I was scum early in RVS, I was just looking back at that, and he's confirm biasing everything I write and missing every point I make and moving goal posts because he's just that confirm biased. People do do that, and some posts do feel somewhat townish, but man I don't know.

Dunnstral doesn't feel like scum to me, but I don't know if I'm writing him off too easily. We were in the anon dance game together, and he replaced into a scum slot and the way he pushed things were just really wrong, so I've been looking for pushes that feel weird and I don't see it. Right now he feels more like he did in xeno and tenet. Not a strong read, but.

Norfolk I'm not sure about. I don't think that the opening posts deserved the push they got, I didn't like yesterday's posts that much and I thought he might have been appeasing Cakez by calling him misguided town, but today's posts felt a little better. I'm going to continue to fence sit here. I know that's really weird for me to do, but that's where I am.

So, yeah I don't know. Numbers wise, there should be scum in there right? But I don't know where to place it right now with any certainty.

of course, now they've settled on a team that includes me and the 4 least productive players in the game, which is pretty ludicrous, but i admit, it's

something

this is also why i asked people for who their shot choices would be when i replaced in - i was going to try to track how people's stances changed and if they were possibly shifting them to encourage rlotus to shoot someone he already suspected but they had previously not mentioned much - i wanted to see if anyone's reads were shifting in an agenda-y way

Am I reading this wrong or are what is listed as my scumreads here not really rooted in reality?

When did I ever call N_M, rockhopper scum on day 1?

[Dunnstral]

The problem with Dunn's interruption is that he looked at what me and Imperium were doing, not necessarily what was being said. Him implying that either me or Tammycho wanting you to be shot was again, not even remotely true. That shot form Netflix was of their own volition

But you were encouraging it

[Dunnstral]

Well I was wrong

Unwnd why did your read on me change to null?

Also maybe I'm biased but I think the way some people were pushing Duchess felt unnatural/TMI, especially early on before rtlotus got the gun, I just don't think they were that easy to pick out and then they flipped godfather

I didn't know wheme has pushed duchess, that was interested from mush, I thought unwnd was one of the first

[Dunnstral]

Here's another thing I want to bring up. Who do you think are the most thoughtful, in the "puts a lot of thought into things" sense, players in the playerlist? NOT the best or most skilled or whatever else. Also, you can't say me. Anyone can answer. Everyone can answer. I'm looking for something.

Definitely Unwnd, Imperium and you
I don't think anyone else is even close

STT?

[Dunnstral]

Well I was wrong

Unwnd why did your read on me change to null?

Also maybe I'm biased but I think the way some people were pushing Duchess felt unnatural/TMI, especially early on before rtlotus got the gun, I just don't think they were that easy to pick out and then they flipped godfather

I didn't know wheme has pushed duchess, that was interested from mush, I thought unwnd was one of the first

Who are these people?

I don't know... do you have thoughts?

I was thinkign unwnd from early

[Dunnstral]

this is going to sound fucking terrible but as i was reading yesterday, i thought the way imperium is plying they're going to get vengekilled for sure if they're town, so i decided to gambit and bullshit a scumread on them because if scum buy that i'm hardtunneling them maybe they don't get venged, i figured they wouldn't get shot by rlotus ever but just to be safe i was like "shoot norfolk first every time", that's why i was so insistent on that order that they got on my case hardcore about, it was because i didn't actually want them shot. they came back at me so hard i actually panicked a little and talked myself into think they were scum for a bit but at some point i realized i was being a fucking idiot and tammy is obvtown, but i might as well keep it up for the sake of the gambit (and, honestly, this is terrible to admit but i felt like if i backed down there i might actually get shot). you can see how eventually i stopped attacking them at all and was basically only making arguments in self-defense and even trying to disengage entirely, because i was bluffing my read the whole time but didn't want to keep forcing arguments i didn't actually believe in. (i did get legit pissed at the BoP thing though, sorry, but that felt like it was entirely in relation to my read on them and nothing else). the whole idea was the make sure they don't get venged for the sake of an easy game and that's why i pushed them, i know it's stupid but that was my big brain plan

And how did you know the godfather was about to die?

[Dunnstral]

this is going to sound fucking terrible but as i was reading yesterday, i thought the way imperium is plying they're going to get vengekilled for sure if they're town, so i decided to gambit and bullshit a scumread on them because if scum buy that i'm hardtunneling them maybe they don't get venged, i figured they wouldn't get shot by rlotus ever but just to be safe i was like "shoot norfolk first every time", that's why i was so insistent on that order that they got on my case hardcore about, it was because i didn't actually want them shot. they came back at me so hard i actually panicked a little and talked myself into think they were scum for a bit but at some point i realized i was being a fucking idiot and tammy is obvtown, but i might as well keep it up for the sake of the gambit (and, honestly, this is terrible to admit but i felt like if i backed down there i might actually get shot). you can see how eventually i stopped attacking them at all and was basically only making arguments in self-defense and even trying to disengage entirely, because i was bluffing my read the whole time but didn't want to keep forcing arguments i didn't actually believe in. (i did get legit pissed at the BoP thing though, sorry, but that felt like it was entirely in relation to my read on them and nothing else). the whole idea was the make sure they don't get venged for the sake of an easy game and that's why i pushed them, i know it's stupid but that was my big brain plan

And how did you know the godfather was about to die?

i didn't, obviously?

Then how are you playing around imperium getting vengekilled and providing cover or whatever you're claiming right now?

[Dunnstral]

I will be intensely annoyed if I get the gun, so much that I'll hipfire

Last time I talk about that however, just note if that is your decision then expect suboptimal hipfire into my null pool

This isn't like you

So if you're scum, this is subtle manipulation to try to avoid being shot

If you're town: Stop and think. What shot opens the gamestate? What shot is likely to be scum? There's no reason for you to be tilted and shoot wildly.

[Dunnstral]

I will be intensely annoyed if I get the gun, so much that I'll hipfire

Last time I talk about that however, just note if that is your decision then expect suboptimal hipfire into my null pool

This isn't like you

So if you're scum, this is subtle manipulation to try to avoid being shot

If you're town: Stop and think. What shot opens the gamestate? What shot is likely to be scum? There's no reason for you to be tilted and shoot wildly.

What isn't like me? Hello? There's a fucking gun in play. I don't have to sit and toil with convincing X amount of people to vote the person I want, I only have to convince myself or the gunbearer. What is even the point with posturing with me

Threatening to shoot sub-optimally if you get shot is what I'm referring to.

If you shoot your own scumreads, that's fine, but self-sabotaging because you got shot at doesn't sound like something you would do, or should do if you're town

[Dunnstral]

How is it sabotage? I want to shoot in a null read because PoE matters more in this setup. I also have the agency to do so

I don't care that you scumread me, I just think your approach towards me is annoying

I'm actually trying to help you if you're town right now, I think that this somehow turning into an argument/clashing might be indicative of alignment

[Dunnstral]

I think you're misunderstanding something here

Are you saying you'd shoot your null reads instead of your scum reads if you got shot at?

[Dunnstral]

I think you're misunderstanding something here

Are you saying you'd shoot your null reads instead of your scum reads if you got shot at?

Yeah I'd shoot one of them for the sake of the PoE/spite

Gun game brings a different set of rules

Yeah so this is what I meant
You framed it like it would be a suboptimal spite shot because you don't want mush to shoot you

This is what I'm saying feels out of character for you

I don't really understand the poe argument, why are your own scumreads not applicable? Note that it would be town giving you the gun, in this case, which would be different than if you got gunned during night

And don't get it twisted, I wouldn't be haphazardly shooting. I've already got it in my head who I want to shoot in my nulls. It might be a hipfire but I'm not putting on a blindfold

ok

[Dunnstral]

Yeah so this is what I meant
You framed it like it would be a suboptimal spite shot because you don't want mush to shoot you

This is what I'm saying feels out of character for you

From my own interpretation--

You think I'm bluffing and saying all this to not get shot. You think I'm saying or threatening a hipfire to keep MUSH from shooting me. Me just telling you it would be spite is being honest, but you comprehend at least that even if I were spiteful It'd be with consideration. I'll tell one other thing...my reads can change. I want to work on getting that null pile less and less and I would feel more comfortable having the gun once that's sorted out because if I get it then I will be just lining them up like an adrenaline vigilante. If I get shot before that however? I'm gonna take a chance and shoot into my null because it will either 1) Give me more to work with if they somehow flip red 2) Give someone else the gun and I can die a thankless hero

Yes, but I was also saying that if town you should reconsider

I'm not scumreading you as hard as you're interpreting here, I guess

[Dunnstral]

I changed my mind, but only because it opens an otherwise nonexistent dialog.

Dunnstral! Give me your scum. All of them. Because I see you attack and attack and I see no substance come of it. Give me your scum and we will talk about your future and theirs.

I still think Norfolk mainly, I think I've given reasons here already; they look scummy, they continue to not post much as we got past the early game and there's no reason why that's town, the excuse where they don't want to have the gun early doesn't work anymore

After that, I think some scum have been hanging back. In my mind that pool of players is wheme, n_m, and previously rockhopper (peta isn't hanging back though)

Peta is kind of poe scummy for other reasons though, and since a lot of other people see them as scum and I don't really have my own opinion I have them as scummy

n_m and wheme probably has scum in it, even though wheme is more involved than n_m he's still relatively holding back it feels

So that's like, 3 of the 4 last scum. Last one

might

be unwnd, or it might be someone I'm not aware of. There's probably someone I'm not aware of.

[Dunnstral]

Yeah so this is what I meant
You framed it like it would be a suboptimal spite shot because you don't want mush to shoot you

This is what I'm saying feels out of character for you

From my own interpretation--

You think I'm bluffing and saying all this to not get shot. You think I'm saying or threatening a hipfire to keep MUSH from shooting me. Me just telling you it would be spite is being honest, but you comprehend at least that even if I were spiteful It'd be with consideration. I'll tell one other thing...my reads can change. I want to work on getting that null pile less and less and I would feel more comfortable having the gun once that's sorted out because if I get it then I will be just lining them up like an adrenaline vigilante. If I get shot before that however? I'm gonna take a chance and shoot into my null because it will either 1) Give me more to work with if they somehow flip red 2) Give someone else the gun and I can die a thankless hero

Yes, but I was also saying that if town you should reconsider

I'm not scumreading you as hard as you're interpreting here, I guess

Make this more productive for me. Here are my nulls

You, Peta, STT, N_M

You don't want to see any of these shot? Why?

I'm fine with you shooting in that group (barring myself)

The way you framed it is that it would be a sub-optimal spite shot over people you think are more likely to be scum because you're upset you got shot at

[Dunnstral]

Hmmm. So, a question for the crowd. Does anyone else see the glaring issue with unwnd's response to me?

I think I'm responding to it, yes

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, let's say you somehow magically get /one/ free shot from the mod right now, but it has to be at someone you townread or who is so widely townread that they would normally be untouchable. Who's your galaxy-brain shot here? The one where you think that the only way they go down is if you get the gun.

That's a hard question to answer because it's not how I think about games

But of people I townread, I'd say STT has the most chance of pulling the wool over my eyes just from playstyle

Imperium has gotten into a groove where I don't see them as scum

[Dunnstral]

Dunn is the fattest null there, reminder that'd be gun to head sorting nulls

[Dunnstral]

So, Dunn, it might seem like I'm getting a bit personal here. If you feel that way, please understand that it's only personal for you. Not for me.

So, my real question here is... Why have you got basically no read progression on anyone since Day 1? I mean, I'll give you Imperium. But changing /one read/ in /two dayphases/ in a game that started with /11 unknown players/ (you know your alignment and everyone knew Netflix's)? I mean, that's crap, isn't it? So what's the excuse here?

That's fair

It's because not much had happened. Rtlotus shot came out of nowhere, and I

did

have read progression when Rtlotus was shot at, though other people accused me of doing something with that

If you think about it, I've talked about all the major events this game:

Netflix and Chill getting the gun at the start, I gave an opinion on that
RTlotus getting shot, I talked about that
Duchess getting shot - I'm here and talking, again. I haven't looked deep into what duchess flip means but I think it's notable that they were a godfather and I didn't feel like there was that good of a reason to push them for most of the game

[Dunnstral]

And my reads have changed

Me thinking Unwnd is scummy is a result of the information from the shots
I've been saying Norfolk has needed to go for a while now, I don't want to get caught up talking in circles

Like, we're not very far into this game, despite how it feels

[Dunnstral]

I think we're looking at things differently, I don't see why it's a bad thing for my reads to not have changed much when I feel like most of the stuff that would shift my reads hasn't happened yet

For duchess being shot my conclusion is that there was probably at least 1 person pushing there early that was scum because godfather is an easy push for scum

And that just happens to line up kind of with what I was already thinking

[Dunnstral]

I don't think there's a reason for me to shift my stance on Norfolk, for instance, aside from overthinking or thinking in circles without a resolution

[Dunnstral]

I don't think I'm going to be able to give you a response you'll enjoy, but that's how I'm playing this game

I am considering some things like imperium and cakez and internally reasoned that they're more likely to be town for their spat and externally didn't push on them, but that's not very impressive, pointing to things like that isn't useful unless the gunbearer is considering shooting someone I disagree with, which in the last case it was Duchess and from my point of view they were getting pushed for no reason so I gave my opinion on taht (but didn't put it on repeat, just like I didn't put my norfolk scumread on repeat when it was clear netflix wasn't shooting there)

[Dunnstral]

I don't need your permission to comment on things lol
I just thought I'd chip in

When you respond like that you kind of end up intercepting

[Dunnstral]

You've pushed very lightly for your preferred shot

And your word has held very little weight regardless

[Dunnstral]

some of this i was assembling yesteday, if you feel like i got anything wrong point me to the posts


trying to look over duchess's ISO and it looks like they knew they were screwed yesterday, they barely said anything about anyone, but I'll try to scrape it for clues

Implying I have no reads at all is just... wrong and feels bad faith

[Dunnstral]

Also, I recognized this flaw in myself during Death Curse -- I have a bias towards townreading replacement players for at least one dayphase. I do wonder what could have possibly made me come to this conclusion.

And with that data now before me, I'll float my interim solve here: unwnd, HUB, Dunn, Wheme.

I want to see what other have to say about this.

PEDIT: Oh jeez that's a hell of a list if I'm right, two buddies in town and one in null.

I shouldn't be on this list with the rest of these names

[Dunnstral]

I should in fact further prove my point by saying that I am /very/ interested in unwnd and Dunn's response to my current solve. I mean, beyond the obvious, I already know how they feel about their own inclusion. Also Imperium's.

Your list seems fine to me... it's generally people I've vocally expressed either wanting dead or ok with being dead

Just, I shouldn't be on the list along with the rest of them, it makes very little sense

[Dunnstral]

does unwnd also have hub and wheme in their solve?

[Dunnstral]

Don't worry, Cakez. After I have heard from Dunnstral, I take my next step. And if that doesn't kick the game in the ass, there's nothing that will -- not even the shot.

Confused about what you're waiting for, if you asked for something I missed it. If it's my reads didn't I explain them?

[Dunnstral]

Unwnd, we have the same scum pool.

[Dunnstral]

Oh, you know, it's a good time for this, actually.

If anyone thinks they /might/ be in the line of fire for the shot, now is your chance to change my mind. Ears and eyes are open. Filters are off. Stubbornness disengaged. I am willing to listen to you for a short time. Call it 24 hours, though if everyone checks in before then, I might skip ahead. You will not know if you actually ARE a target until after this window closes. This is your one chance.

Remember that my stated solve /may or may not actually line up with what I actually intend to do/. I might decide to turn around and follow the solve everyone else is pushing, or I might hit three of my current solve and then knock out Imperium in the end. You do not know what my intentions are. So you should use your own brain to decide if you're a target, and not try and parse my play to figure it out.

Once the next stage of my time with the gun begins, it's going to be more about ordering who goes down first. Your time will be up and there will be no convincing me of anything. I would seriously consider if you trust a gamble on being the target or not.

Again, you should rethink my interactions with the rezt of your poe pool. It doesn't make sense for me to be scum with those players based on how I am pushing them and they are treating me

[Dunnstral]

This isn't an obvtown game for me, but I don't see myself as the scummiest person here

I've seen cakes as scum but don't know about bussing.

Imperium I don't remember when/if I've seen them as scum

HUB I've seen as scum before, I think they prefer to play is straight and avoid bussing most of the time

[Dunnstral]

Ah, so it isn't a complete loss going into the next phase.

I think, Dunn, that the issue you're having here may be that the scummiest person in the game is Not_Mafia, and I don't trust myself to read that slot confidently. I think it's VERY SCUMMY, even taking NM's playstyle into consideration, but I have no prior experience. I'm taking a gamble on the basis of a SINGLE SOLITARY POST, "Who is Duchess?". And if NM is town, I think NM misses every. single. solitary. time. It's damn near gamethrowing to shoot there unless I'm 100% certain beyond all doubt, and I am distinctly not.

Of the active players, there's a balance to take into account, as well. I'm balancing scumminess and non-trash play. The scummiest one in the game is still a gamble if their play or their reads are total crap and I'm not confident about them. If I'm gambling, right, I want the greatest return on investment and the lowest risk. So I'm aiming to hit the scummiest slot that I am confident can hit scum themselves if they are in fact town.

That's a tough choice to make!

Would you not put yourself in the top 5 when you combine both considerations? I mean, you aren't obvtown, you said it yourself. But no one outside of the lurkslots is obvscum either, and none of them are so obvscum that with the NEXT DAMN SHOT controlling the fate of the game, I would want to gamble it on them. And most people here, let's face it, have trash reads. Just, as a matter of course. You and unwnd have the same scumpool, you said THAT yourself too. Why would I not include you if I include unwnd?

Sure but I don't have the same mindset and wouldn't let somebody else's reads keep me from shooting them.

If you're thinking of shooting me because you think I'd be reasonable with the gun then that's kind of fair but I always think you should go for the slot that looks the worst

[Dunnstral]

That's not me necessarily saying "shoot nm" just to be clear

Just the way I view things

[Dunnstral]

You and unwnd have the same scumpool, you said THAT yourself too. Why would I not include you if I include unwnd?

These are two seperate thoughts

The first is that I shouldn't be in a pool with him and the other players

The second is that maybe I'm wrong on my read there and I don't get why he's pushing me

[Dunnstral]

Who started that trend, also? Who first called for Imperium's head on the basis of "I won't scumread this on this thin of evidence"?

I believe it was Sircakez and Imperium in a 1v1

[Dunnstral]

And then petapan talking about Dunn's nasty dirty no good fingerpointing at people "egging on" a shot that they had no real influence or say in. I want to address this in detail.

I was about to post about Lotus being an interesting shot with some potential, in fact, when the thread was locked. It was one of my walls AND I had real life on my ass, so I didn't even see unwnd say fundamentally the same exact thing. No point in saying it afterwards (until now, when I have the gun, also I want to come back to this whole point later), but... it did nearly happen. This is the entire reason why I was so vehement in pushing back on the concept of people "egging the shot on".

And I have literally no reason to lie about that now: I am in control, I can say or do whatever pleases me and no one can stop me. So I hope Dunn feels suitably shamed in public now. (Note: going through the ritual motions of apology with a middle finger raised in my direction is sufficient, actual shame not required, this is all very purposefully super fucking theatrical, have some fun with it.)

So yes. VERY LOUD agreement that the entire argument about "egging that shot on" is bullshit and garbage. And I will skip the rest of that first post. Because it's BoP and you will never, ever convince me.

But there's a whoooollllle other post to go through!

I didn't say that everybody who was egging on the shot was scum, did I?

If you had posted a whole paragraph about your thoughts I likely wouldn't have pushed you for that

[Dunnstral]

Cakez unwnd MUSH (vacant) (vacant)

---Null void---
Peta
N_M
Dunn
--Null void---

Wheme (vacant) (vacant)

There are more vacancies than there are players? Or is someone missing

[Dunnstral]

First read I was wrong on :/
@imperium we can have the discussion you want post-game
This even moreso reinforces that scum were going for the "shoot Cakez shoot imperium" game ender (along with the fact that both Duchess and HUB were pushing me hella hard obviously)

But HUB was scum so I'm happy with that
I want NM or Wheme today

How does this reinforce that if imperium got killed?

[Dunnstral]

And who was saying shoot cakez?

[Dunnstral]

I pretty much agree Mush my one question is where does Dunn fit in? Because he has read increasingly scummy to me

???

Go back and look at my pushes this game

[Dunnstral]

Then again Dunn’s dodged a lot of scrutiny. Then again also unwnd has and I’m pretty sure unwnd is green in this universe. Eh I’m happy with 2 caught scum really, the rest POEs to the finish no matter who holds the gun and how bad their reads are

I really haven't dodged anything, I've responded to everything directed at me

[Dunnstral]

3 scum left

7 players alive total

Now would be a good time for reads lists

[Dunnstral]

I'm going to say STT and Sircakez are the two least likely to be mafia for me

Leading to a likely team of NM, Peta, Unwnd.

With Unwnd being the least sure of those

[Dunnstral]

My thoughts on Dunn are complex. But I like Dunn for town within the context of the whole gamestate.

So, let’s rewind to end of Day 2: i townread Imperium and unwnd, scumread Duchess and Cakez, and was focusing on sorting Dunn and petapan — who I was scumreading, but without much confidence. Suddenly, townreads gone, and the next post is Lotus saying he changed his mind. I need a mind blowing discovery to get me back in the gamestate, I tell Lotus as much while trying to not be too obvious about where I’m at, and then it’s a Duchess shot anyway. Well. GREAT. And then I get the gun! And I’m screwed.

(At least I prepped the gift box and Tyulpan mortar thing well beforehand...)

One thing to note here is that Dunn was not nearly reactive enough and wasn’t interacting enough with my townreads to disrupt them.

Now, one thing you’ll notice on Day 3 is Dunn pushes back on me a lot but never tries to guide my hand. At least five other players did, so I don’t think that’s necessarily scum-indicative, considering one is now flipped town and one was Cakez, who I townread. I think NOT doing it is more town indicative (lurkers excepted), because scum have a chance to guide me into a disastrous miselimination there; if it won’t destroy their positioning they should always try to get me on their preferred target, or at least echo someone else in hopes of guiding the next shot in that direction. Like. That’s nearly a game winner.

Dunn just throws his hands up like “I’m sick of this shit” when I unveil that I’ve been bluffing to try and get any content I can use out of the player list.This is Dunn’s chance to get into my townreads and save the game for scum, but no, instead... nothing. Makes sense enough as town, doesn’t make much as scum.

My one doubt is pretty flimsy, it’s the Day 2 Beetlejuicing Dunn did with me. It might mean nothing, but it’s still concerning to me and I think it’s enough to shove Dunn into my nulls. He’s top of them, because there’s a much better chance of petapan (very weak associative) or NM (based on only two posts in that ISO that seem AI to me) going red 3 from where I’m at... but it is nice to have someone for that last ELo slot, in case we go two red and two green and it’s all down to the wire. I think unless someone gets a galaxy brained idea, Dunn always loses against the other likely slots in endgame. Given I like unwnd and Cakez for the most townie here and I would hope none of my targets are both green and foolish enough to shoot in there without a very compelling reason that they for some reason haven’t shared... I’m willing to give Dunn the benefit of the doubt for now.

I was focused on looking town

Wheme/NM were in the shot pool, I couldn't save peta, and stt probably wasn't going to get shot

[Dunnstral]

Assuming no secret alts?

You Cakez dunn Norfolk. The former three have seen me in pretty dead on games. Norfolk lost to town me (we were competing day one wagons and he died)

I was the one who first brought up making you the gunbearer