TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[Dunnstral]

inb4 xtoxm claims tracker again

seeing as I am a STRONG INVESTIGATIVE ROLE i would immediately counterclaim that because there's no way that there are TWO strong investigative roles in a large normal

I was actually considering this last game, I was a personal watcher - that's a regular watcher except I couldn't see factional abilities (the scum kill) - I was on the fence about whether my role was a cc to tracker, I saw Titus' soft and was originally planning to target them (see if they get roleblocked), decided I'd go for xtoxm that night if they lived (try to catch a roleblocker)

Really the correct decision was to elim xtoxm through claim and for nobody to cc

[Dunnstral]

Last game I was swatting down townreads on people who were "posting good" but actually they didn't do anything ai

It ended up being correct to do so

[Dunnstral]

the link to a PT (with hindsight, probably scum PT)

I think it was his team pt. Didn't somebody do some reverse engineering on the number and date?

In any case, I agreed with your logic that he was presenting his team's post as his own.

[Dunnstral]

there's more content in the above post than your entire iso in the first game

By the way shame about that wall post you made right before the last game got cancelled

[Dunnstral]

the link to a PT (with hindsight, probably scum PT)

I think it was his team pt. Didn't somebody do some reverse engineering on the number and date?

In any case, I agreed with your logic that he was presenting his team's post as his own.

The reverse engineering was never proven.

Some people in here shared a scum pt last game so they would know

Isn't that a bit of information some people know and others don't, by the way?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: dgb

aw

VOTE: dann

I'm not sure how you got anything out of 219, or at least anything towny

[Dunnstral]

why do you think me vote was on xtoxm and why do you think i moved it? it wasn't due to anything xtoxm said

My perspective:

Your vote was on because he 'would replace out' as scum
You removed it because of his response in 219

[Dunnstral]

kind of think serious discussion of what to do with prs is bad

It's talking about last game

[Dunnstral]

I didn't start posting until page 9

How am I scum on page 4 and 5?

[Dunnstral]

I think my townleans are Okapoka mastina Cephrir

thank you listening, see you next time

I don't townread any of these people

[Dunnstral]

AGar how do you like my posting yet I am exactly the kind of player you hate Loool

separation of liking alignment and playstyle?

[Dunnstral]

I think the second half of 287 by Mastina is pretty weird too.

I'm town now that I'm posting... why was I scum before? Notably Titus was in scumlean without having posted yet, which is a different position

[Dunnstral]

rvs read list inc <3

oh I guess I wasn't joking

Spoiler: serious rvs analysis time

coming into the game I was trying to keep an eye out for people who were quick to try and recreate the "vibes" of last game but either felt like they were forcing it or just felt distinctly different from last game in how they went about it. Very start of this game has ythan, hopkirk, okapoka, hercule, and IV talking the most. There's no actual content here but it's the type of memey early back and forth that creates (dare I say) good vibes between people and that scum wouldn't hate to establish a foothold in (like hercule had so pointedly done at the very beginning of last game).

off the bat I do agree that hercule feels different this game. He's less shy about directly interacting with people so far and I vaguely liked that he was the one that took the initiative on the meme xtoxm wagon. I don't think his change in approach or tone are things that he wouldn't necessarily be able to do as scum, and I think watching to see if he's able to keep this same type of energy up over a longer period of time will be most indicative for him, but for now I'm comfortable putting him slightly above everyone else.

ythan was who I originally landed on as feeling somewhat suspicious out of the starting meme/vibe/hangout group. just a purely gut reaction but he felt more on the outside looking in and #83 in particular just felt like kind of a forced way to match his energy to the thread. Reading back now though, I don't really see his posting so much as trying to cement himself within the vibes (whatever the hell that actually means) as just poking around rather nonchalantly. He doesn't post that much and doesn't seem particularly desperate to be "in the vibes" which is my new term for people trying to get themselves in the early meme town block I guess?

I actually do lean town on Hopkirk. I won't go into details but I was having a terrible day at work so I think it's at least a little town indicative that Hopkirk and Hectic were sensitive to me feeling a little more dour than usual today? At least, I feel like it should be town indicative. I'm not really giving the same points to Mastina given she came in after Hopkirk and her approach feels a little less curious/thoughtful than Hopkirk's wtr to my slot. although I don't scum read her.

innocent villager I ended up switching my vote to after just one too many posts that I felt were... a little forced? Like to me, the "hahaha I'm scum no I'm not let's be silly guys" stuff was fun for the first few pages but IV seemed intent on continuing it for just a bit longer. It just felt like it crossed the line of someone trying too hard to continue the vibing shit posts while also making it 100% explicit that "I'm just shit posting guys." I dunno, just slightly more self aware than everyone else who was casually shit posting.

It also felt like an intentional choice? Is that a right read IV? It stood out to me and I'm wondering if you were trying to accomplish something specific with the "guys I'm scum" shit posts or if you just didn't want to let go of the fun

Also I'm not sure I vibe with your jump on Cephrir as I think interpreting "don't post your reads list every page" as "Cephrir must hate mastina's reads" feels like just looking for something to attack

I don't have any real thoughts on anyone else yet. OkaPoka feels the same as last game but I don't think that actually means anything for their slot. I thought the worst's pop in was kind of weird on a gut level? but I assume that's just because duck hasn't read the game yet.

This is a thoughtful post and I agree with the contents

I don't think there's a lot to get good reads off of before this post

I'm open to Cephrir being town this time but he's going to have to show it in a way that I can interpret, because his current posting makes me want to say don't townread him so fast

Though I can understand him not liking mastina being a real thought, even from last game where he was scum

[Dunnstral]

You not posting early was a warning sign

Until this post.

I'm sorry

Nothing to be sorry for

I'm saying that post is readable on an alignment level where previous posts really weren't

[Dunnstral]

rvs read list inc <3

oh I guess I wasn't joking

Spoiler: serious rvs analysis time

coming into the game I was trying to keep an eye out for people who were quick to try and recreate the "vibes" of last game but either felt like they were forcing it or just felt distinctly different from last game in how they went about it. Very start of this game has ythan, hopkirk, okapoka, hercule, and IV talking the most. There's no actual content here but it's the type of memey early back and forth that creates (dare I say) good vibes between people and that scum wouldn't hate to establish a foothold in (like hercule had so pointedly done at the very beginning of last game).

off the bat I do agree that hercule feels different this game. He's less shy about directly interacting with people so far and I vaguely liked that he was the one that took the initiative on the meme xtoxm wagon. I don't think his change in approach or tone are things that he wouldn't necessarily be able to do as scum, and I think watching to see if he's able to keep this same type of energy up over a longer period of time will be most indicative for him, but for now I'm comfortable putting him slightly above everyone else.

ythan was who I originally landed on as feeling somewhat suspicious out of the starting meme/vibe/hangout group. just a purely gut reaction but he felt more on the outside looking in and #83 in particular just felt like kind of a forced way to match his energy to the thread. Reading back now though, I don't really see his posting so much as trying to cement himself within the vibes (whatever the hell that actually means) as just poking around rather nonchalantly. He doesn't post that much and doesn't seem particularly desperate to be "in the vibes" which is my new term for people trying to get themselves in the early meme town block I guess?

I actually do lean town on Hopkirk. I won't go into details but I was having a terrible day at work so I think it's at least a little town indicative that Hopkirk and Hectic were sensitive to me feeling a little more dour than usual today? At least, I feel like it should be town indicative. I'm not really giving the same points to Mastina given she came in after Hopkirk and her approach feels a little less curious/thoughtful than Hopkirk's wtr to my slot. although I don't scum read her.

innocent villager I ended up switching my vote to after just one too many posts that I felt were... a little forced? Like to me, the "hahaha I'm scum no I'm not let's be silly guys" stuff was fun for the first few pages but IV seemed intent on continuing it for just a bit longer. It just felt like it crossed the line of someone trying too hard to continue the vibing shit posts while also making it 100% explicit that "I'm just shit posting guys." I dunno, just slightly more self aware than everyone else who was casually shit posting.

It also felt like an intentional choice? Is that a right read IV? It stood out to me and I'm wondering if you were trying to accomplish something specific with the "guys I'm scum" shit posts or if you just didn't want to let go of the fun

Also I'm not sure I vibe with your jump on Cephrir as I think interpreting "don't post your reads list every page" as "Cephrir must hate mastina's reads" feels like just looking for something to attack

I don't have any real thoughts on anyone else yet. OkaPoka feels the same as last game but I don't think that actually means anything for their slot. I thought the worst's pop in was kind of weird on a gut level? but I assume that's just because duck hasn't read the game yet.

Hercule was also quick to gain townreads early last game

If he rolled scum again he could easily look different to look town

People started cluing in on him as the game went on and discussion about other peoples' alignments started

What I'm trying to say is that reading him off tone on the first few pages is a bad idea, again

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Xtoxm

[Dunnstral]

It's crazy that you went right back to only posting Auro's opinions, and you

just

got tripped up on that in the last game.

I guess you guys were disconnected and didn't ever understand why I was pushing you?

Also, these townreads and scumreads make me queasy. Something about the charisma values and the reads, it feels like a scum point of view.

[Dunnstral]

you feel hostile

They felt hostile last game.

If you don't remember, look for the one time in all of last game where they acknowledged my existence (I wasn't even in their read list)

[Dunnstral]

Dann, Agar, what do you two like about xtoxm here?

There was a spot where they were aggressive last game

They're doing the same exact type of posting where they don't acknowledge a lot of what is going on, even stuff directed at them

I don't understand how Auro's read on Hercule makes them town

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Hercule
Because I don't personally buy that he's towntold either

[Dunnstral]

without quoting five long posts, your vibes feel off here. you seem overly manic in a way that feels kinda fake/trying to look overenthusiastic

Dunn said something similar (using less words) about an early post of mine in the cancelled game. He was wrong, and so are you.

Uh.. I didn't scumread you that game. It must have been an off-hand comment

[Dunnstral]

My thoughts:

I don't know where to side on lld and dgb. Not scumreading either atm, which could be incorrect. Not enthused about either vote though

I like Dannflor for town after thinking about it. I always have, but I'm less reserved about this read. I don't buy into mastina's case here

I agree that a50 looks like town. Not a strong read

I think Hercule starts looking better than what I remembered roughly around pages 30-33

Which makes me raise an eyebrow at 824 from lld, actually

UNVOTE: Hercule

I like 817 from lld, though, votes on the worst feel weird right now. I'm not townreading him but he's about null and said he'd post more later, and people have been putting new votes on him for a while now.

[Dunnstral]

But Dann and Cephrir not liking Hercule posts around that time have me reconsidering

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Hercule

Reading through to page 37 I'm not like, sold on him being scum, but I can see it going either way

And I don't like DGB on 37

And I do like Dann, Ceph, jjh, and to a cautious extent lld

[Dunnstral]

Xtoxm posts have way more of a natural tone all of a sudden

But the reads presented in 1012 are probably bad

And the case on me in 1035 is just not good and feels more like discrediting than scumhunting (gamestate at the time had lld looking like an easy vote)

[Dunnstral]

Also if you're going to say "dunn's reasoning is wrong!" you're going to have to show how

Because I'm 1 and you're 0 on me calling your alignment based on what you're calling wrong

So if you could explain how that's wrong and how it's different from last game, that would be great.

And if you're going to say that I'm wrong, but you were coincidentally scum last game, then that's still not a point against me, but you need to clear that up.

[Dunnstral]

you wrong because you called lld low charisma
i dont see how you can possibly argue that's a correct statement

maybe I was wrong

What I really meant was it was an easy vote to make/scumread to have, it felt like the thread was leaning in that direction

I don't really think me calling lld low charisma and being wrong is something scummy anyway, which is why I didn't like your push

What was wrong about the way dann joined herc wagon?

[Dunnstral]

i mean, not two yeets, but two days

I would not mind a second day to figure shit out and then a flip choice.

I'm confident I can find them today. More confident if I have a second day to use.

But I'm willing to do it today if needed.

I may still be a fool, but I'm willing to move LLD to the TRs now. I don't think she doubles down in her own fate like this as Scum. She's a fierce fighter for survival.

Pay more attention to whether she actually follows through on it

To add to this:

They definitely would double down as scum, but that doesn't make them scum - you shouldn't be reading this as town though

Also, I don't really expect them to roll over as town and die either, the premise is dumb to begin with and is just trying to get us to follow them

I've disliked all of DGB's recent posts. Last game I was trying to remain unbiased due to me generally not liking their playstyle and ended up somewhere around null to lean town, it's notable to me that I can look at DGB and think they're scummy this game. I'd vote for them today

[Dunnstral]

i dont think lld is an easy vote...i think she's one of, if not the hardest players to eliminate in this game. i doubt we'll be able to get it tbh.
dann's vote, my sense from him was that he wasn't heading toward a herc vote, so that appearing was unexpected for me.
im generally confused at how quickly this herc wagon has grown, when i dont feel its warranted, so ive been tinfoil wondering if scum are like coordinating their votes on here (like, 3 scum votes on the wagon) - this would explain the wagon speed, and dann's out-of-place looking vote would be a candidate for that imo.

LLD had 12 posts when I posted in response to your reads. Now they have 76 posts; yeah, things have changed, I feel like you're applying future knowledge to my past comment. She looked like she could have been elimmed before.

Didn't a wagon on you grow kind of quickly last game? Not from the start of the game, but from the start of the wagon. It makes sense that this game starts going quicker because we just went through a lot of probing and learning in the last game and there's more stuff to jump at now.

[Dunnstral]

But you were being bussed, which is something different than a block of scum voting together on a townie

I can see herc as either town who is being pushed for not much and him having trouble in the game because he has to argue against that

OR I can see him as scum who feels caught for the wrong reasons, as pointed out by Dann and Cephrir and LLD around page 33+

I don't think their reaction is towny, at least. What I thought was towny was mostly a tone read and got town apart back to null in the next few pages, and I remember that I shifted to townreading him as the game went on last time. It seems like a fine vote to me

[Dunnstral]

To be clear, I think it's a fine elim for day 1 too, not just a fine vote for pressure or whatever

[Dunnstral]

But you were being bussed, which is something different than a block of scum voting together on a townie

I can see herc as either town who is being pushed for not much and him having trouble in the game because he has to argue against that

OR I can see him as scum who feels caught for the wrong reasons, as pointed out by Dann and Cephrir and LLD around page 33+

I don't think their reaction is towny, at least. What I thought was towny was mostly a tone read and got town apart back to null in the next few pages, and I remember that I shifted to townreading him as the game went on last time. It seems like a fine vote to me

Thank fucking god you're town.

This is literally where I'm at right now and I'm loathe to talk much about it because the minute I stop doing the charismatic confidence bit, the hercule wagon will dissipate?

and I'm right now more certain than not he's scum... but there is a voice in the back of my head whispering bad thoughts to me, and it's talking a lot about the way the 2 wagons have progressed today, people's stances, and what makes sense for scum to do if we were both town.

Can you vibe at me wrt to that topic?

Also I want to be clear that I'm doing something I've basically never done before and being transparent with my process a bit here

Which feels really fucking vulnerable and bad, so I'm really hoping that it pays off and either cures my paranoia or refocuses me in a correct path if needed.

lol

Yeah, which wagon are you talking about, the worst or yourself?

[Dunnstral]

What I thought was towny was mostly a tone read and got town apart back to null in the next few pages, and I remember that I shifted to townreading him as the game went on last time.

i can't interpret this sentence can you rephrase

torn apart instead of town apart

[Dunnstral]

What I thought was towny was mostly a tone read and got town apart back to null in the next few pages, and I remember that I shifted to townreading him as the game went on last time.

i can't interpret this sentence can you rephrase

torn apart instead of town apart

I'm saying that I'm not so certain on what I unvoted him for after reading other opinions on the next few pages

Spoiler: DGB Reads

TOWN

DrippingGoofball
Xtoxm
Dannflor
Winter Flakes
Hopkirk
AGar
jjh927 - low activity, low quality post by did drop a towntell
Titus - VLA, but I like what I see thus far
hercule - was going to say null until I caught a towntell

NULL

mastina - I have been enjoying her posts on a personal and intellectual level, I have seen nothing I would consider remotely scummy but she's not someone who can be read on Day 1.
Almost50 - he is so giddy I read his post with a helium balloon voice, I don't know if that's AI.
the worst - VLA, waiting for more info
Cephrir - was going to be in my town list but I saw a few things that pinged.

SCUM

Dunnstral - his xtoxm scumread feels like he's scum sensing a weak target and picking at him. a lot of going back and forth and fencesitting.
Ythan - low activity, meaningless posts
not-so innocentvillager - morose and demotivated, not solving
Lady Lambdadelta - aggressively discrediting players, manipulative ego post

DGB Gamestate read

hercule (7):

Lady Lambdadelta, Ythan,

OkaPoka,

the worst, Dannflor,

Dunnstral,

Cephrir

Lady Lambdadelta (5):

DrippingGoofball, hercule, Hopkirk,

innocentvillager,

Xtoxm
the worst (2):

jjh927, Winter Flakes

Dannflor (1): mastina
Almost50 (1): Almost50

Not Voting (2):

Titus,

AGar

I also glanced at the vote count after seeing dgb's reads, this thinking feels towny, even if you came to a different conclusion

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, do you have a read on Hopkirk this game?

Leaning towards being scummy, I didn't like the comment about cephrir/lld not being t/t - how would he deduce this? Felt like a false dichotomy

The parts where he's talking about flopz are null to me

[Dunnstral]

Dunn if you're around I want to dismantle my own wagon I think, but I need to talk to someone who I have the remotest sense of trust in to decide whether my paranoia is legitimate or not.

It also doesn't hurt my team is in my ear about all of this too so.

I'm around now

For what you're asking: if you and hercule are both town I don't know how people play it. The way things are playing out right now would have me guessing defense of hercule and pushing you, just based on my own reads

For my money, I think dgb has been playing the part where I'm reading them as either blatantly defending a buddy or defending a towny and pointing at you

[Dunnstral]

But you were being bussed, which is something different than a block of scum voting together on a townie

I can see herc as either town who is being pushed for not much and him having trouble in the game because he has to argue against that

OR I can see him as scum who feels caught for the wrong reasons, as pointed out by Dann and Cephrir and LLD around page 33+

I don't think their reaction is towny, at least. What I thought was towny was mostly a tone read and got town apart back to null in the next few pages, and I remember that I shifted to townreading him as the game went on last time. It seems like a fine vote to me

Thank fucking god you're town.

This is literally where I'm at right now and I'm loathe to talk much about it because the minute I stop doing the charismatic confidence bit, the hercule wagon will dissipate?

and I'm right now more certain than not he's scum... but there is a voice in the back of my head whispering bad thoughts to me, and it's talking a lot about the way the 2 wagons have progressed today, people's stances, and what makes sense for scum to do if we were both town.

Can you vibe at me wrt to that topic?

Also I want to be clear that I'm doing something I've basically never done before and being transparent with my process a bit here

Which feels really fucking vulnerable and bad, so I'm really hoping that it pays off and either cures my paranoia or refocuses me in a correct path if needed.

lol

Yeah, which wagon are you talking about, the worst or yourself?

Hercule.

Dunn if you're around I want to dismantle my own wagon I think, but I need to talk to someone who I have the remotest sense of trust in to decide whether my paranoia is legitimate or not.

It also doesn't hurt my team is in my ear about all of this too so.

These posts too mastina

[Dunnstral]

and 1248

[Dunnstral]

So I don't think Mastina is mafia; though I disagree with a lot of her opinions right now

A50 is leaning town on tone and meta

Cephrir you have devolved back into short posts complaining about mastina and the game state, and that feels kind of bad for your alignment

I've moved on from xtoxm in case that wasn't clear.

The worst/Winter Flakes/Titus: This group feels unreadable for me; I want to say there's probably scum in this group

[Dunnstral]

I would like to better understand why lld is currently being wagoned and where else we should be wagoning

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

[Dunnstral]

TOWN

DrippingGoofball
Xtoxm
Dannflor
Winter Flakes
Hopkirk
AGar
jjh927 - low activity, low quality post by did drop a towntell
Titus - VLA, but I like what I see thus far
hercule - was going to say null until I caught a towntell

NULL

mastina - I have been enjoying her posts on a personal and intellectual level, I have seen nothing I would consider remotely scummy but she's not someone who can be read on Day 1.
Almost50 - he is so giddy I read his post with a helium balloon voice, I don't know if that's AI.
the worst - VLA, waiting for more info
Cephrir - was going to be in my town list but I saw a few things that pinged.

SCUM

Dunnstral

- his xtoxm scumread feels like he's scum sensing a weak target and picking at him. a lot of going back and forth and fencesitting.

Ythan

- low activity, meaningless posts

OkaPoka

****

I forgot to write his name in the scumlist but I clarified later

not-so innocentvillager

- morose and demotivated, not solving

Lady Lambdadelta

- aggressively discrediting players, manipulative ego pos

t

These were my reads two days ago.

I have highlighted in red the players voting for me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I definitely scumread you and said I'd vote for you way before you mvoed be down to scum in your reads, acting like it's the opposite is disingenuous

the case on dunnstral

(cases are scummy version)

preface: this is the result of significant discussion between myself and auro on discord. it is not only my, or his case, it is both of ours, in my words. some elements may be influenced by auro or paraphrased.

part 1

: dunnstral is scummy in this game

shitpush on us

VOTE: Xtoxm

It's crazy that you went right back to only posting Auro's opinions, and you

just

got tripped up on that in the last game.

I guess you guys were disconnected and didn't ever understand why I was pushing you?

Also, these townreads and scumreads make me queasy. Something about the charisma values and the reads, it feels like a scum point of view.

you feel hostile

They felt hostile last game.

If you don't remember, look for the one time in all of last game where they acknowledged my existence (I wasn't even in their read list)

Dann, Agar, what do you two like about xtoxm here?

There was a spot where they were aggressive last game

They're doing the same exact type of posting where they don't acknowledge a lot of what is going on, even stuff directed at them

I don't understand how Auro's read on Hercule makes them town

from #398 to #685, where he hops on the hercule wagon (period >24h) he comments only on us. no other opinions on the game, or other players. like dgb said earlier, we think he was picking on an easy target here. i have no doubt that after v1, scum were expecting me to be an easy mis-eliminate this game. (hell, so was i)

VOTE: Hercule

Reading through to page 37 I'm not like, sold on him being scum, but I can see it going either way

shit vote on hercule. he said he's happy for this to go all the way to an eliminate. but he can see it going either way.
yet, for someone expressing such a nonchalant and uncaring attitude, he sure is hard opposed to applying the same logic to another player many of us scumread.

Spoiler: waffling

I don't townread any of these people

I think the second half of 287 by Mastina is pretty weird too.

VOTE: Hercule
Because I don't personally buy that he's towntold either

But the reads presented in 1012 are probably bad

I don't know where to side on lld and dgb. Not scumreading either atm, which could be incorrect. Not enthused about either vote though

I like Dannflor for town after thinking about it. I always have, but I'm less reserved about this read. I don't buy into mastina's case here

I agree that a50 looks like town. Not a strong read

I like 817 from lld, though, votes on the worst feel weird right now. I'm not townreading him but he's about null and said he'd post more later, and people have been putting new votes on him for a while now.

I can see herc as either town who is being pushed for not much and him having trouble in the game because he has to argue against that

OR I can see him as scum who feels caught for the wrong reasons, as pointed out by Dann and Cephrir and LLD around page 33+

Spoiler: active lurking

But you were being bussed, which is something different than a block of scum voting together on a townie

I can see herc as either town who is being pushed for not much and him having trouble in the game because he has to argue against that

OR I can see him as scum who feels caught for the wrong reasons, as pointed out by Dann and Cephrir and LLD around page 33+

I don't think their reaction is towny, at least. What I thought was towny was mostly a tone read and got town apart back to null in the next few pages, and I remember that I shifted to townreading him as the game went on last time. It seems like a fine vote to me

Thank fucking god you're town.

This is literally where I'm at right now and I'm loathe to talk much about it because the minute I stop doing the charismatic confidence bit, the hercule wagon will dissipate?

and I'm right now more certain than not he's scum... but there is a voice in the back of my head whispering bad thoughts to me, and it's talking a lot about the way the 2 wagons have progressed today, people's stances, and what makes sense for scum to do if we were both town.

Can you vibe at me wrt to that topic?

Also I want to be clear that I'm doing something I've basically never done before and being transparent with my process a bit here

Which feels really fucking vulnerable and bad, so I'm really hoping that it pays off and either cures my paranoia or refocuses me in a correct path if needed.

lol

Yeah, which wagon are you talking about, the worst or yourself?

Hercule.

Dunn if you're around I want to dismantle my own wagon I think, but I need to talk to someone who I have the remotest sense of trust in to decide whether my paranoia is legitimate or not.

It also doesn't hurt my team is in my ear about all of this too so.

These posts too mastina

and 1248

these were the only posts made by dunn this day.

I've moved on from xtoxm in case that wasn't clear.

it wasn't, and you're late to the party. i feel i'm pretty obvtown at this point, and a lot of players have called me town.

I would like to better understand why lld is currently being wagoned and where else we should be wagoning

for someone who has taken a hard stance of being opposed to the lld wagon, why has it taken so long to ask this question?

part 2

: dunnstral is playing his scum meta

we've done a fairly deep meta dive on dunn, and we believe we've found a characteristic of dunn's scum play. it is present in this game.
we did an experiment of this by having me pull links in dunn's game history direct to his iso, ones that we hadn't looked at before, and showing them blind to auro. auro would try to make a read on dunn using only his iso. i showed him 5 games of psuedo random alignments. some of them he was confident in, and called quickly, a couple he said he was unsure and guessing a little - but he called all of them correctly.

here are the links i gave to auro. i've spoilered the alignments in case you'd like to perform the experiment yourself:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Spoiler:

scum

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Spoiler:

town

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Spoiler:

town

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Spoiler:

scum

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Spoiler:

town

when dunn is town he provides insightful reads that are well explained. when he is scum, this is not always the case, especially early in the game. he is prone to making blanket statements such as "i like [player]" with little or no justification. as town, he just goes straight into explaining his positions. auro looked over these iso's, with a focus on identifying non backed up blanket statements. the tell itself is not absolute - there are some instances of him doing it as town - but they are much rarer. people may cheery pick these to refute our case, but i'll reiterate: auro called dunn's alignment correctly every time.

instances of dunn doing it this game:

I like Dannflor for town after thinking about it. I always have, but I'm less reserved about this read. I don't buy into mastina's case here

I agree that a50 looks like town. Not a strong read

And I don't like DGB on 37

And I do like Dann, Ceph, jjh, and to a cautious extent lld

The worst/Winter Flakes/Titus: This group feels unreadable for me; I want to say there's probably scum in this group

could auro have gotten lucky with 5 consecutive guesses? well, maybe. but 5 in a row is pretty long odds. auro seems to be pretty good at meta reading dunn, and he has a heavy scumread on dunn this game.

i have been reluctant to post our case, as im worried about dismantling our wagon on lld, but auro feels its time to share.

we still want to eliminate lld today

we feel this is the best flip for the game state, and we have a heavy scum read there also. we scumread both independently. perhaps this will help inform opinions on one of the players who is desperate to wagon outside of lld.

My push on you wasn't bad because you went back to playing the same way as before. I pulled back when you brought in new stuff, I said you felt more natural.
My push on hercule wasn't bad. There are (were?) good reasons to think hercule can be scum, looking at tone isn't a very compelling counter-argument.

What you refer to as waffling is me giving my opinion and trying to figure things out.

290 is decidedly not waffling, 297 isn't waffling, I'm talking about a post, 685 includes a vote and isn't waffling either, 1056 is me acknowledging that my reads aren't at 100%, so while I don't like your scumread on lld or Dann I'm not going to say you're wrong for sure because I don't know. 1053 is mostly reads, I end up siding with lld shortly after anyways. 1064 maybe, but I'm explaining why I think the vote is fine and I'm already voting them.

Active lurking: You have 1 example and it's really weak, but no I don't think that's fair to say

Meta: You're wrong, I've explained my positions; you've even quoted me doing so in my posts. To be clear, when you say I haven't given 'insightful' explanations this game, you're wrong.

As for not applying the same logic to lld; you wouldn't know whether I would or not. Maybe I will. Fact is nobody has even tried to explain the vote there so all I can do is oppose dgp's political grandstanding in thread, which happens to be wanting lld's elim

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Dunnstral

VOTE: Dunnstral

I'm going to need an explanation for these.

Dann and hopkirk suddenly casing me as scum is very conveniently timed.

Dann asserting that I am on the sidelines for lld/hercule is incorrect.

Again, saying I'm fencesitty is wrong

[Dunnstral]

Also I haven't really deflected away from lld because I'm not 100% that she's town over scum trying to pocket me

But me asking for someone to explain why lld is being pushed is a big deal because there is very little reason why lld is being pushed

That's not the case for hercule, which could be explained, and can still go either way

LLD can go either way but there's no explanation for why she's scum here, and me asking for explanations is seen as defending her

[Dunnstral]

i'll confess to finding the meta argument interesting

Are you going to take their word for it or look for yourself?

Do you think I haven't been insightful and explain-y in my reads this game?

[Dunnstral]

Note that me asking someone else to explain something is not a read

[Dunnstral]

some parts of that case felt good

Which parts?

[Dunnstral]

++scum
Dunn has played plenty of games with me. he's calling me scum based on specifically one of many thoughts in a catchup. he should know that that's me putting my thought process and what i'm considering on paper and he's acting like i'm 100% on reads based on one specifically chosen comment from my catchup. that's taking a specific chosen point and overly focusing on it when it's not representative of the whole, and he should know that

I'm not calling you scum, I said you lean towards scum because some of your thoughts feel fabricated

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to know, or why me saying you're scummy is scummy for me.

[Dunnstral]

dann/ceph were both pushing hercule
then ceph jumped on A50s shitpush of me and Dann joined in with a naked vote that he later explained buried in an iso as basically 'i don't have as many townvibes as i want' which doesn't gel with the timing of the vote being with the A50/me conflict that he didn't comment on specifically
now they're both pushing Dunn with cases that came as basically the same time

both of their votes/pushes on me were the worst ones. oka/agar are in a similar state of their agreement with those pushes being bad

this feels like trying to save a partner

VOTE: LLD

This is a good post, but you lose me when you go to voting lld

Is lld the one doing something scummy here? no, and there's no reason to think they're specifically protecting lld other than her being wagoned right now (which there's also no explanation for)

Wouldn't it make more sense for you to directly vote the people who are doing something scummy? Scum can act scummy around town too

[Dunnstral]

I'm not asking you to use meta

I'm asking you to look at my posts and answer this:

Do you think I haven't been insightful and explain-y in my reads this game?

Meta would be if I'm asking you to compare it to my scum/town game. I'm not doing that. You can do this exercise by reading only t his game.

[Dunnstral]

i liked the points about 1055 and 1572

i don't really care whether or not you've been waffling

I wasn't talking about waffling, I was talking about whether I was being insightful/explaining my reads; stop deflecting.

If you don't want to do this, just say you're too lazy to, that's a valid answer. What do you dislike about my posts 1055 and 1572?

[Dunnstral]

i'll confess to finding the meta argument interesting

Are you going to take their word for it or look for yourself?

Do you think I haven't been insightful and explain-y in my reads this game?

i'm not very good at meta and auro is a more analytical type of player which might be a good approach to this game in particular given that my approach is not really working so far, so i was planning to take their word for it yes

oh look this too

but i will take a look at some point if this wagon gets more serious, i just don't expect to be very good at it either

Cephrir is demonstrably wrong at this point so pointing to him and saying "yeah this too" isn't helpful

[Dunnstral]

i mean i guess you're not disputing xtoxm is town so your point is that he can't read i guess?

sure i should probably check but that seems extreme

I didn't exactly say that, but I do think they're town and they're wrong

I'm not trying to make 'a point' about xtoxm right now, I'm trying to understand some of the people who voted without really taking it in

[Dunnstral]

shit vote on hercule. he said he's happy for this to go all the way to an eliminate. but he can see it going either way.
yet, for someone expressing such a nonchalant and uncaring attitude, he sure is hard opposed to applying the same logic to another player many of us scumread.

You agree with this?

I explained how lld is different. There are no

reasons

for her to be scum that was given. Me acknowledging that she can scum is me saying 'yeah, she's a pretty good player and I can't fully trust her right now with no flips'. For Hercule, there is a case laid out and points made about how he could be playing to a scum agenda. It's not the same thing.

[Dunnstral]

for someone who has taken a hard stance of being opposed to the lld wagon, why has it taken so long to ask this question?

I don't have a hard stance of being opposed to the lld wagon.

I am explicitly not defending her, I'm

asking a question to try to understand what is going on

. The question is

still unanswered

and people are shading me for asking it

[Dunnstral]

shit vote on hercule. he said he's happy for this to go all the way to an eliminate. but he can see it going either way.
yet, for someone expressing such a nonchalant and uncaring attitude, he sure is hard opposed to applying the same logic to another player many of us scumread.

You agree with this?

I explained how lld is different. There are no

reasons

for her to be scum that was given. Me acknowledging that she can scum is me saying 'yeah, she's a pretty good player and I can't fully trust her right now with no flips'. For Hercule, there is a case laid out and points made about how he could be playing to a scum agenda. It's not the same thing.

it was odd to place a vote on that pretty dangerous wagon if you felt lukewarm about it

This is the same stance I had for xtoxm in the last game

It's not lukewarm; there are reasons that they can be scum, so I'm fine pushing it

[Dunnstral]

Ceph, wagoning LLD has been like pulling teeth, her buddies are NOT bus'ing. We townies will have to do it without scum's help.

This probably the best argument for Scum!LLD I have seen so far. It's not a

perfect

argument (because sometimes Scum try to avoid the prevailing wagon to saw confusion when the eliminated flips Town. Some of us will want to eliminate ON the wagon and some off it, but the popular argument would always be "Scum

must

gave been on it", so 0-1 Scum on a Town flip on D1 increases the Scum win probability by like 50%). However, I can guarantee Scum are reluctant to bus LLD is she is on the red side.

I don't agree that it's like pulling teeth

Some people, like yourself, agar, are just not that fast to vote. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but that is what is being used to paint this as 'pulling teeth'

No, this is normal, and in fact the wagon sprung up really fast

[Dunnstral]

NARRATOR: There were, in fact, cases plural.

Then why aren't you answering when I am asking for them?

Just saying 'there are cases' is not an answer. I'm asking what is the case.

[Dunnstral]

prior to team mafia and 2180 my understanding of your posting was that it was very terse and one-lined as either alignment. have you intentionally been writing longer and more thought-heavy posts lately or am i just crazy? in that sense i just dont have a great sense of your meta. i think the fact that auro who is probably way better at interpreting this stuff than me can get your alignment right 5/5 times and is scumreading you here is just another thing making it more likely you are scum here fmpov

If you see me writing shorter posts and not often, and not digging deep into the game, that means I'm not interested/not engaged/don't have time to be engaged with that game yet

It's something that I do as both alignments. Activity is not a good meta tell for me, it's also not the tell that is being used here

I'm capable of posting a lot as town/scum, this is team mafia so I'm definitely not going to lurk this one out in any case

[Dunnstral]

the case for scum!LLD, to me, is:

1. enters the thread with sole purpose of discrediting mastina and "eliminate players in inverse order of her preference"

2. then decides to back up this idea by saying just that my entrance was garbage

3. re-iterates that my entrance was garbage multiple times in order to get votes on me

4. rallies the thread to vote me, still with no evidence

(4.5?) big ego post about their scumgame

5. when i finally respond to her like, "ok, enough's enough let's talk" she's just like "nah lol you're caught scum"

6. when i'm like "ok well that's bullshit" she's like "lmaoooo such a scum reaction now my vote is, like, even more justified"

7. when a counterwagon forms on her, she AtEs and leaves the thread (also like, can't tell if she's mad that more people aren't voting me despite her not seeming to be sure or just mad that she's being voted)

i'm aware this is a slightly humorously uncharitable framing of her game but it also feels like a somewhat reasonable one

At this point I want dgb to point to what the case was -before- this post, but:

1-3, 4.5 I don't think is scummy. 2-3 Can come from town who is scumhunting, in particular
4. I disagree that there is no evidence. Off the top of my head she laid some stuff out/pointed to things and said it felt like scum
5-6 is fair. I don't think it's a smoking gun because where she is coming from is that if you're scum then allowing you to change the conversation/nitpick at little things she says is not something she wants to do, but he should probably be letting you speak and reconsidering if she isn't as confident as she is projecting at this point
7 idk

[Dunnstral]

Ythan, can you give me some opinions?

[Dunnstral]

i dont enjoy doing this but people see big blocks of text and become hypnotized without critically analyzing them for actual value and i'd like to win this game without just betting it all on a black box full of random chance.

How does this line up with:

i did not do a lot of research i just saw something that sounded convincing and said sure that can have my vote let's see how that goes

[Dunnstral]

You don't seem like you feel very strongly about me being scum Cephrir

You're adopting a wait-and-see approach except I'm here and we're not waiting for me

What are you hoping to gain from your vote of me? Are you waiting for somebody else? We're kind of saying the same things right now so this feels like a weird stance, those two posts you keep pointing to don't look so convincing to me

[Dunnstral]

I think this is a reasonable take on the situation, also it wasn't supposed to be necessarily each point was scummy more just a narrative of her play this game that overall I feel is scummy. I agree that 2-3 can be fine in a vacuum and maybe 5-6 isn't a smoking gun but yes the "projected confidence" is what gets me and maybe there's an explanation for it that she hasn't shared yet. But I am also colored by my team's take on 7

She said she was projecting confidence because if she doesn't, the wagon on you falls apart. Which seems fine to me if she's trying to pressure you, and then she talked about that with me.

What I'm considering is that maybe she was trying to buddy with me, because I'm not really sure why she was all 'thank god you're town' at me earlier. This isn't me saying she's scummy, this is just a consideration, and it's subtle, but I do think lld would be interested in buddying me in a subtle way. I'm willing to work with lld regardless

[Dunnstral]

when dunn is town he provides insightful reads that are well explained. when he is scum, this is not always the case, especially early in the game. he is prone to making blanket statements such as "i like [player]" with little or no justification. as town, he just goes straight into explaining his positions. auro looked over these iso's, with a focus on identifying non backed up blanket statements. the tell itself is not absolute - there are some instances of him doing it as town - but they are much rarer. people may cheery pick these to refute our case, but i'll reiterate: auro called dunn's alignment correctly every time.

instances of dunn doing it this game:

I like Dannflor for town after thinking about it. I always have, but I'm less reserved about this read. I don't buy into mastina's case here

I agree that a50 looks like town. Not a strong read

And I don't like DGB on 37

And I do like Dann, Ceph, jjh, and to a cautious extent lld

The worst/Winter Flakes/Titus: This group feels unreadable for me; I want to say there's probably scum in this group

Subject: TENET - Game Over

Dunn who do you want to lim over here?

I don't know, it's a hard decision. I can process of elimination it, though.

I also don't want to elim Brian because I like what he's been saying

Or Annie

I don't and didn't think that a50 was scum

Spiffeh your play today has not been impressive

Bell IDK.

Titus is starting to look like a possibility. I never saw the sirius posts but I'm guessing they're not all they're hyped up to be.

[Dunnstral]

I also clearly did this in the previous run of this setup

You were in that game

[Dunnstral]

auro's opinion on hercule talking about his scum playstyle is that it's town indicitive
he says that scum can steal a march on a possible question about it by posting in this way, but that it would be unnecessary to go into such depth
herc believes that he will be able to earn townreads from the way he plays, which, if scum, would require confidence on hercs part that he can both make a substantial change in the way plays scum, and also get townread doing it
he also thinks scum herc would know such a play is unlikely to repay him well

he criticizes llds push on hercs 2nd post, saying repeated attacks have been made but no explanation of why it is scum indicative
why scum, as opposed to exhilarated town? does she expect the hercule is disingenuous in his belief that his team has players that are strong in town roles?

he is confused at the number of people treating mastina in an insulting way, and notes that he has mastina as locktown (????)
feels that agar reacted disproportionately to mastina calling him null, however he's not sure if it's alignment indicitive

at this point he offers a readslist:
town: mastina, hercule, iv, ceph
scum: agar, lld, dgb

his stomach feeling on a50 is scum. i've told him that i veto any d1 a50 vote wishes he has.

I don't like:

• The read on herc is super convoluted, it goes back and forth and I don't understand why auro leans town on it. His approach isn't commonly seen, and personally I am unable to ascribe a lean in any direction, I fail to comprehend how anyone can feel so strongly about it.
  
• Scumreading LLD for her aggressive scum read of hercule without considering that an aggressive town read is just as bizarre.
  
• Completely unexplained scum read on me (also I know it's wrong, so there's that).

I like:

• Scumreading LLD for her aggressive scum read of hercule is a reasonable position to take in isolation.
  
• Noticing AGar flinching when poked with a null read.

Xtoxm, please ask your other team members for reads while the game is still young and it won't take them an eternity.

i'll just quote that again shall i

To put it another way, discrediting mastina this early in the game is Scummy McScummerson.

are you scumreading everyone shading mastina?

No.

There's a certain quality to LLD's push that screams wanting to keep the genie in the bottle.

he is confused at the number of people treating mastina in an insulting way, and notes that he has mastina as locktown (????)

They fear mastina - right or wrong, she'll dig her heels in and they're afraid she'll be right.

is anyone treating mastina in an insulting way besides cephrir asking her to not post a reads list after reading every single page?

LLD

Post #669 is a scumclaim by LLD.

Post #669 is a scumclaim by LLD.

669 is a Dann post.

What are you smoking, DGB?

Post #679. I reported it to the mods for game-throwing, that's how bad it is.

LLD/A50/IV

That's my scum team so far.

Tell me more about that OkaPoka read.

No. I respectfully decline to present any cases (Town or Scum) on anyone. This is my solve. Feel free to ignore it.

While I am enjoying voting you as much as you are enjoying voting yourself, how about we join forces and fire up a LLD wagon?

VOTE: LLD

Hercule if you vote LLD you'll be riding on sweet towncred 'til end game.

LLD, why are you so focused on petty stuff and you overlook A50's TR on me?

Titus let's break new ground and cooperate.

I need your assist with a shiny new LLD wagon.

We only have one yeet and I too want to yeet them both.

I've been told that if you vote LLD, all your dreams come true. That's good enough for me!

Hopkirk, can we hypnotize you to vote for LLD? We really could use your help right now.

Titus: let's go ahead and clear LLD since she would never make an early push on town as scum

LLD: yes, yes, correct I would never, despite me just stating that my meta is insane and i change it all the time, you are logical and reasonable

*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*

tbh i had to stop myself voting LLD purely based on that ego post

Right?

She could have just typed "I rolled scum" - it would have been simpler for everyone.

We'll throw A50 in the sack tomorrow. His self-vote is just trying to beat the town to the punch, but we're not fools here.

so are you saying scum!LLD comes in driving a bus d1 and expects it to go to a lethal or that scum!LLD plans to throw some sus on Herc then start pushing something else? it doesn't feel SvS

I wasn't concluding anything about LLD yet. I only postulated scum!LLD and town Hercule is unlikely. I don't have enough data for predictions.

Vote LLD! It'll be good for your record. <3

Titus: let's go ahead and clear LLD since she would never make an early push on town as scum

LLD: yes, yes, correct I would never, despite me just stating that my meta is insane and i change it all the time, you are logical and reasonable

Neither of these posts are what we said though.

The use of "we" is making me tingle.

hmm i am having a lot of trouble getting reads in this game, i think my LLD townlean crumbled to dust after seeing the kind of player she is

Happy! Happy!

Joy! Joy!

Join us, yellow dog.

What’s stopping you from being able to read me?

All the townies are voting LLD and you're voting hercule. But you can change that! Our everlasting gratitude is on the line <3 <3 <3

Hmm

I don't like LLD's playstyle but I don't think she's scum here

Hercule looks like town to me, but I should add the caveat that I haven't read the previous incarnation of this game so can't really comment if people are judging based on that


I'm still happy voting the worst

Sometimes a player doesn't like another's playstyle, goes overboard trying to remain unbiased, and calls them town.

Well yeah you are way too aggressive

I play as loose as ever nowadays but I think that means something different to me than it does to you

LLD is scum and we need to throw her in the yeet sack.

Get into the sack, LLD!!!!

Get into the sack, LLD!!!!

I played quarterback in high school.

I'm very experienced at avoiding the sack.

Also I'm town so, not gonna happen tbh

The potato sack is still coming for you.

So that's what LLD was trying to sell me. Bollocks!

This game need a vigorous charisma wagon.

Let's vote LLD, a beautiful glowing light of love awaits us all.

go LLD? i mean this game is markedly different because LLD is here and is a warper

Switch to LLD! Make the wagons go 5/5. Titus' head will explode!

go LLD? i mean this game is markedly different because LLD is here and is a warper

Switch to LLD! Make the wagons go 5/5. Titus' head will explode!

ngl, this is the most compelling case you've made so far

Cases are scummy and wagons are so much fun.

IF LLD is scum, she is not the easiest scum to find

It looks like you just convinced yourself to join us! You can count on my support on the worst at some later time, if that helps.

Don't complain if you're not voting LLD !!!!!

you're not voting with LLD, why?

Because she's scum :cry: :cry: :cry:

i mean, not two yeets, but two days

I would not mind a second day to figure shit out and then a flip choice.

I'm confident I can find them today. More confident if I have a second day to use.

But I'm willing to do it today if needed.

I may still be a fool, but I'm willing to move LLD to the TRs now. I don't think she doubles down in her own fate like this as Scum. She's a fierce fighter for survival.

Meta schmeta

Did you read her ego post?

Neither did I, but I scanned it slowly enough to remember how she emphasized that meta doesn't apply to her.

Which is why I scumread her.

LLD/A50/IV

That's my scum team so far.

I know I responded to this earlier (at least I think I did) but those are

really

bad reads.

You may be the one I'm wrong about in that cursed lot.

While I am enjoying voting you as much as you are enjoying voting yourself, how about we join forces and fire up a LLD wagon?

I am necessarily against wagoning LLD, but I do SR mastina still. Convince me mastina's Town and I will vote LLD with you.

I don't have a read on mastina yet.

Right now, my reads are based in wagonomics only for the most part minus a skim. I have been VLA most of the game.

Right now, my gut says the worst should be the lim but it is possible I am reading the gamestate wrong. I know my bias is to lim LLD because I am sure hercule is town but LLD's push doesn't feel in bad faith like the superbowl push from Tenet. I'll need to look at that in detail.

VOTE: the worst

He's VLA :shifty:

he's refusing to give ANY of his reads until LLD apologizes to RC and makes good restitution on the defamation of his holy image.

Yeah that totally makes sense.

This game is a joy.

Surely, some of bickering players are scum.

But I keep coming back to all the resistance for a rainbow road, sparkling blue sky LLD wagon.

LLD is an extremely valuable scumpal. No scum in their right mind would sacrifice such a blessed partner to bulldoze a town.

And theres a handful of players that are against it in a stubborn way saying she'd too difficult to put on the saddle to ride the elimination mule out of town to the dead thread. Much like ABR was against the xtoxm wagon.

LLD is an extremely valuable scumpal.

She's also a good scum hunter, and you don't lim good players just because they "may" have rolled Scum (which is true for every single player in this game except me from my own PoV)

What is the

case

on LLD? Oh, I forgot. Cases are scummy. Got it.

I did make a case tho

Squeeeeeeeee

Mastina is voting LLD!

Surely, some of bickering players are scum.

But I keep coming back to all the resistance for a rainbow road, sparkling blue sky LLD wagon.

LLD is an extremely valuable scumpal. No scum in their right mind would sacrifice such a blessed partner to bulldoze a town.

And theres a handful of players that are against it in a stubborn way saying she'd too difficult to put on the saddle to ride the elimination mule out of town to the dead thread. Much like ABR was against the xtoxm wagon.

Hey DGB are you willing to bet your life I'm scum?

Are you claiming vengeful?

LLD is

scumploding

The scum isn't helping me wagon LLD.

Why?

Few things would make me happier tomorrow morning than two more LLD votes before I go shovel the snow.

dgb how do you feel that your worldview is me/LLD and I am voting her rn? and if I’m so scummy why haven’t you tried to push me more; a lot of people townread me, doesn’t that concern you?

Yes, that's why I'm not putting it at the forefront of my mind.

we're trolling now boys

it's the right way to celebrate the fact that this thread will be as long as war and peace before we manage to yeet anyone

You can't complain about that if you're voting Hopkirk instead of LLD, but the faster you make the correct vote, the more the game pace will be to your liking. Just saying!!!!

hercule pls
we didn't put all this work in saving you from scum for you to come out and townread said scum
lld is scum and we are eliminating her today
ffs

This post is beautiful it brought tears to my eyes.

VOTE: okapoka

swim with the fishes i probably will

VOTE: mastina

/shrug maybe i can see if anyone agrees with me. or mastina can admit she's being political heh

sorry danny

world's be turning actually

VOTE: a50

also LLD is on like E-2 for pretty much no reason? and that makes me uncomfortable.

Don't you sound like ABR trying to block his buddy's wagon! I won't have it.

Ceph, wagoning LLD has been like pulling teeth, her buddies are NOT bus'ing. We townies will have to do it without scum's help.

i'm fully aware that i look like an LLD partner right now but i am not going to let that stop me from pointing out that the game state is completely irrational.

It's

very

rational.

i'm fully aware that i look like an LLD partner right now but i am not going to let that stop me from pointing out that the game state is completely irrational.

It's

very

rational.

did i miss a daycop soft or something bc otherwise this post is, like, from space

Both mastina and I are voting LLD for reasons that overlap (that may be an artifact of mastina being so wordy, and I being so terse), and many players that aren't LLD's buddies agree.

How is that "from space?"

NO U

U from space

green pool

iv, hop, ceph, xtoxm, ythan, dann, herc

honestly anything goes

titus, agar, flakes, lld, dgb, jjh, dunn, duck

red pool

a50, mastina

is where my head is at atm

Those reads are very original.

one of my teammates has convinced me that LLD was doing fakerage

Interesting. I didn't want to touch on this because it's so subjective, but I am a huge sucker of AtE, it makes me just want to hug people and call them town. LLD's has left me completely unmoved.

I’m sorry but WaGoning LLD has decidedly not been like pulling teeth and it’s been entirely too easy *especially* considering the type of player she is

please do not loleliminate her right now

I'm the game dentist, I should know what pulling teeth is like.

It has not escaped my notice that Dannflor is reducing the case against LLD as a lolwagon.

You can go back to voting for LLD!

Who again was saying how easy it is to yeet LLD?

Lady Lambdadelta (6): DrippingGoofball, Hopkirk, Xtoxm, mastina, Ythan, hercule

The scum have dispersed and divided themselves among hercule and myself, perhaps others.

@Titus

- I totally agree with your IV vote, but we only have one yeet today.

@Dannflor

- I totally agree with your chicken vote, but we only have one yeet today.

@AGar

- You're not voting but we really need you. I beg you, help us.

@jjh927, Winter Flakes

- While the worst if VLA, he certainly deserves examination. A lot of the small wagons are on very scummy players. the worst won't last long and you'll be vindicated eventually, but this wagon isn't happening today. I know you're town. Please help.

A50

- You like to march to your own drum, can you make an exception today and cooperate?

Townies, it's nearly impossible to yeet a scum that their buddy are loathe to sacrifice because of their high value, especially on Day 1 - we need a consensus among so many people. Scum will gladly help a yeet a low value partner for towncred, but here they have decided to defend LLD with their teeth.

But we can do this. We can hit a high value scum on Day 1.

We can

fight back

against the derailment.

A high value scum means a high value yeet for town. Imagine how well positioned we will be without LLD!scum to disrupt our scum hunting.

WE. CAN. DO. THIS.

TOGETHER.

dgb if we are both town then who is scum? im scumsiding with scum!dunnstral and scum!okapoka who are trying to deflect away from scum!LLD? is that the narrative that makes the most sense for you rn (if im town)?

I misunderstood Ramcius. He said that if you being an argument with "if we are both town" then you have to convince me that you're town first, because I scumread you.

dgb if we are both town then who is scum? im scumsiding with scum!dunnstral and scum!okapoka who are trying to deflect away from scum!LLD? is that the narrative that makes the most sense for you rn (if im town)?

So you're saying that you also scumread Dunn and Oka and LLD?

----

her n you have some history?

There is one rule with Mastina's reads.

Take her read list, and start killing from towniest to scumiest in order.

You will win the game before you lose it, almost always. Without fail.

That's pretty unfair, maybe even scummy.

Mastina's read on me was wrong, she misinterpreted Scum vs. Scum for Town vs. Town with ABR vs. Xtoxm, but getting right 2 of the 4 scum, while probably beginner's luck :lol: , is pretty good given how few people suspected Cephrir and hercule.

Like IV, I was reading the worst as town last game. :( oh noooeeees

Did you roll scum, the worst?

DGB, what's your read on Hercule?

Kinda town?

ladys frustration with Mastina comes off townie to me

why

Post #669 is a scumclaim by LLD.

669 is a Dann post.

What are you smoking, DGB?

Post #679. I reported it to the mods for game-throwing, that's how bad it is.

dgb when did you get bad at mafia

You mean to ask

"how can you sound so dumb and be so goddam good?"

Get into the sack, LLD!!!!

I played quarterback in high school.

I'm very experienced at avoiding the sack.

Also I'm town so, not gonna happen tbh

The potato sack is still coming for you.

i mean, not two yeets, but two days

I would not mind a second day to figure shit out and then a flip choice.

I'm confident I can find them today. More confident if I have a second day to use.

But I'm willing to do it today if needed.

I may still be a fool, but I'm willing to move LLD to the TRs now. I don't think she doubles down in her own fate like this as Scum. She's a fierce fighter for survival.

Meta schmeta

Did you read her ego post?

Neither did I, but I scanned it slowly enough to remember how she emphasized that meta doesn't apply to her.

Which is why I scumread her.

TOWN

DrippingGoofball
Xtoxm
Dannflor
Winter Flakes
Hopkirk
AGar
jjh927 - low activity, low quality post by did drop a towntell
Titus - VLA, but I like what I see thus far
hercule - was going to say null until I caught a towntell

NULL

mastina - I have been enjoying her posts on a personal and intellectual level, I have seen nothing I would consider remotely scummy but she's not someone who can be read on Day 1.
Almost50 - he is so giddy I read his post with a helium balloon voice, I don't know if that's AI.
the worst - VLA, waiting for more info
Cephrir - was going to be in my town list but I saw a few things that pinged.

SCUM

Dunnstral - his xtoxm scumread feels like he's scum sensing a weak target and picking at him. a lot of going back and forth and fencesitting.
Ythan - low activity, meaningless posts
not-so innocentvillager - morose and demotivated, not solving
Lady Lambdadelta - aggressively discrediting players, manipulative ego post

Spoiler: DGB Reads

TOWN

DrippingGoofball
Xtoxm
Dannflor
Winter Flakes
Hopkirk
AGar
jjh927 - low activity, low quality post by did drop a towntell
Titus - VLA, but I like what I see thus far
hercule - was going to say null until I caught a towntell

NULL

mastina - I have been enjoying her posts on a personal and intellectual level, I have seen nothing I would consider remotely scummy but she's not someone who can be read on Day 1.
Almost50 - he is so giddy I read his post with a helium balloon voice, I don't know if that's AI.
the worst - VLA, waiting for more info
Cephrir - was going to be in my town list but I saw a few things that pinged.

SCUM

Dunnstral - his xtoxm scumread feels like he's scum sensing a weak target and picking at him. a lot of going back and forth and fencesitting.
Ythan - low activity, meaningless posts
not-so innocentvillager - morose and demotivated, not solving
Lady Lambdadelta - aggressively discrediting players, manipulative ego post

DGB Gamestate read

hercule (7):

Lady Lambdadelta, Ythan,

OkaPoka,

the worst, Dannflor,

Dunnstral,

Cephrir

Lady Lambdadelta (5):

DrippingGoofball, hercule, Hopkirk,

innocentvillager,

Xtoxm
the worst (2):

jjh927, Winter Flakes

Dannflor (1): mastina
Almost50 (1): Almost50

Not Voting (2):

Titus,

AGar

Wow thanks! Is that repayment for all the times I colored wagons for you?

I am not townreading OkaPoka, actually. I forgot him in my list.

But wow, my scunreads are indeed piling on hercule.

Surely, some of bickering players are scum.

But I keep coming back to all the resistance for a rainbow road, sparkling blue sky LLD wagon.

LLD is an extremely valuable scumpal. No scum in their right mind would sacrifice such a blessed partner to bulldoze a town.

And theres a handful of players that are against it in a stubborn way saying she'd too difficult to put on the saddle to ride the elimination mule out of town to the dead thread. Much like ABR was against the xtoxm wagon.

Hey DGB are you willing to bet your life I'm scum?

Are you claiming vengeful?

TOWN

DrippingGoofball
Xtoxm
Dannflor
Winter Flakes
Hopkirk
AGar
jjh927 - low activity, low quality post by did drop a towntell
Titus - VLA, but I like what I see thus far
hercule - was going to say null until I caught a towntell

NULL

mastina - I have been enjoying her posts on a personal and intellectual level, I have seen nothing I would consider remotely scummy but she's not someone who can be read on Day 1.
Almost50 - he is so giddy I read his post with a helium balloon voice, I don't know if that's AI.
the worst - VLA, waiting for more info
Cephrir - was going to be in my town list but I saw a few things that pinged.

SCUM

Dunnstral

- his xtoxm scumread feels like he's scum sensing a weak target and picking at him. a lot of going back and forth and fencesitting.

Ythan

- low activity, meaningless posts

OkaPoka

****

I forgot to write his name in the scumlist but I clarified later

not-so innocentvillager

- morose and demotivated, not solving

Lady Lambdadelta

- aggressively discrediting players, manipulative ego pos

t

These were my reads two days ago.

I have highlighted in red the players voting for me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Dunnstral]

Here are DGB's mentions of lld or lady ^

There's no case. The only thing resembling a case is that she doesn't like post 679

And then it's shading lld nonstop, but there's no big

reason

. She just bad because dgb is being loud about it

Take note of 1583. Who scumread who first in this exchange, me or dgb?
The answer: I scumread DGB in posts 1055, 1061 (I also state that I'd vote them today here, this is while I'm still voting Hercule and don't want to collapse that wagon)

Dgb then makes the following post:

an open question from auro, @whoever is townreading dunn:
what do you tr about him?
what do you think of my comments on him that X paraphrased?

Hi auro

I am not town reading Dunn but I can't say he pinged me as scum.

Note the post number, this is before they would have read that I scumread them if they are answering posts in order.

At this point in time, there's very little interaction between me and DGB.

3 hours and 20 posts later, they make this post:

TOWN

DrippingGoofball
Xtoxm
Dannflor
Winter Flakes
Hopkirk
AGar
jjh927 - low activity, low quality post by did drop a towntell
Titus - VLA, but I like what I see thus far
hercule - was going to say null until I caught a towntell

NULL

mastina - I have been enjoying her posts on a personal and intellectual level, I have seen nothing I would consider remotely scummy but she's not someone who can be read on Day 1.
Almost50 - he is so giddy I read his post with a helium balloon voice, I don't know if that's AI.
the worst - VLA, waiting for more info
Cephrir - was going to be in my town list but I saw a few things that pinged.

SCUM

Dunnstral - his xtoxm scumread feels like he's scum sensing a weak target and picking at him. a lot of going back and forth and fencesitting.
Ythan - low activity, meaningless posts
not-so innocentvillager - morose and demotivated, not solving
Lady Lambdadelta - aggressively discrediting players, manipulative ego post

She already read the xtoxm stuff and answered to xtoxm that I still looked null. This read shift was political, it's because I was with lld instead of them but covered up with the xtoxm stuff
And xtoxm was scummy at the start of the game, they played the exact same way they played last game.

If you look at post 1056 through 1064 it's clear that I'm at least reevaluating this read as they are now acting different. I'm not voting xtoxm at this time or anything.

DGB calls this "fencesitting" and "going back and forth"

[Dunnstral]

love the paranoia ur giving off tbh.

I guess the question is whether she's trying to like, let you

buy a townread with an LLD vote.

It's hard to tell if that's really happening (unless I missed something) because her posts are so detached from the now that there's no real time interaction. I guess I would be surprised if she was, as town, doing something like you describe in order to get LLD dead, but I'm not sure I see that as having happened so far. i am, admittedly, skimming her posts.

the bolded part yeah i feel like she might be offering that? i know dgb is basically trying to offer that but dgb was a lil innocuous puppeteer last game as town so its probably not that AI. mastina come talk to me please

No... this doesn't sound like their play last game at all. They actually analyzed things and had a few good points, they weren't trying to be the loudest person in the room

Their play last game looks quite different

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler: Notes

- #686 is a weird flip by WF. There's like... no content from the_worst to parse in the 20 or so posts between his change. This feels very very contrived.
- I want to murder A50, for no reason other than his spam quotes are going to make this take fucking hours longer than it should.
- #736 looks real bad for Hercule. 741 to 743 is gross. In 741, you're waiting on her to explain her scumread before you decide and you kinda wanna vote A50. In 743 you vote LLD for being in "have not said or done something towny." Feels jarring when contrasted to #736.
- It's the Hercule power hour for now, huh? #751 "I don't feel like it's that weird to be sus of me" really? Because you got uppity and snippy about people suspecting you and/or voting you like... 15 posts ago.
- #766 IV, wtf is this shit?
- Oh no, DGB. That stretch in #768 was too much.
- Ok IV is still town (#772)
- I straight up disagree with OkaPoka's #805. WF has not been bold? He's posted like three times? And he's waffled on a read on the_worst.
- 812 is a weird naked vote. The_worst wasn't a wagon burgeoning. Hope Ceph elaborates?
- Dann/Hercule exchange in the 800s - I agree with Dann, I find hercule infinitely scummier.
- I don't like jjh. #847 is just very middling and meh.
- Hercule #873:

I have devoted most of my attention this game outside of LLD

Press X for doubt.
- jjh #882. Yeah we just play different games or you're selectively misremembering here.
- Hercule #892 is very very typical scum bluster. "I want to talk about things but tell me what they are so I can concoct my read!"

- Whew boy WF absolutely

STINKS

this game.

- I was wrong.
- Hopkirk #1142 and #1144 sets off alarms for me. #1142 looks like he's specifically baiting to bring in toxicity, #1144 doubles down and Hopkirk just doesn't realize that he isn't funny and tries to use this to generate a point of contention.
- Hopkirk also trying to make callbacks to last game and that doesn't really hold water with me.
- 1187 is a hell of a fucking stretch by Hopkirk. Yeet this with fervor.
- Hercule has dipped out since pressure has seemingly dissipated on him. Makes you think.
- 1204, Hopkirk is really trying to kick up the toxicity dust. Wonder why.
- 1242 RE FUCKING TWEET.
- Same for 1424.
- 1480 is a whole damn mood.
- 1511: Oka, how do you not have a read on LLD?
- Oka was doing a reaction test type thing, k. Weird but k.

I am under no circumstances yeeting LLD today.

Preferred yeets {Hercule/Hopkirk}

Someone not named xtoxm please lay out a case on Dunnstral for me? Xtoxm's case has Auro all over it and a lot of meta so I'm not swayed.

686: Agree, I've been saying some of the votes on the worst earlier felt weird. Winter Flakes is pretty underwhelming in general right now
736: I don't agree that this looks bad for hercule
741-743: I didn't really look at this before, yeah these reads in 743 feel bad
751: What you point out is slightly weird
766: I think this was fair from IV, they didn't have the depth of meta and were giving a tone read, then reversed on that when they realized it was a bad read
768: Yes this post from DGB is bad, it's pretty clear that Titus isn't slipping here
805: Yeah WF has not been bold AND Oka is being kind of weird this game. I've got Oka as a personal scumlean that I'm letting sit because if he's town he'll show it, I believe. WF also deserves pressure
812: Yes, and 815 and 817 by lld is towny
847: Agree
892: I can see it either way, as I mentioned (and would be fine voting for that)
ok, so at this point you find something that wf is doing towny, and I'm not seeing it
1142: I think 'baiting toxicity' isn't something he would do on purpose. I think he's being awkward and trying to be funny without realizing what he's doing
1187: I don't understand how this is scummy
1204: I still don't think this is an intentional strategy
1480: That's what I'm saying

Overall I like this post

[Dunnstral]

I'm tempted to say "well dunn is being analytical now" but that's a cop out I should read

I don't believe this was the reason for your vote?

[Dunnstral]

on this

okay working theory: i think LLD is town. sorry but opening up with mastina sux and trying to fight mastina while townreading them is an overcomplication as scum. leaving the thread now when votes are piling on you? that's just silly as scum, maybe as emotional town i can see it because she'll be like not my fault u guys suck.

anyways mastina not biting at my vote and reaction test, i think i can mark her as town for now. why? because i've counted the votes needed to flip LLD, the math is ugly and she 100% is going to be scrapping for votes to lim LLD if she really wants it. the thing is, mastina scum i think would be more readily available to compromise for this because obviously she's not going to think her case is solid. and mastina town, probably is so convinced she is right, she doesn't care and thinks the evidence speaks for itself. a political move is bold yes, but pushing LLD (if my theory about LLD being town is right) is also bold for mastina so if mastina was scum, leaping to compromises i don't think is exactly out of the realm of possibility. limming LLD is probably a top priority for a scum!mastina, but i think this is town. scum mastina probably does the math and realizes compromises need to be had.

also i like the herc is town theory, you know what, i can buy it. mastina's outlined it before, he's reacting a lot different yes, but also, here's the rub, the way herc plays scum is a lot more proactive with buddying. there i dropped the secret tell. he goes out of his way to try and buddy up with people as scum, i don't really see that, whatever that's fine. okay so what do i do with LLD town and town mastina and herc town?

VOTE: dgb

Here are my thoughts, when dgb latched onto LLD, LLD was not viable wagon at all. you know what was? herc wagon. i think the most routine scumplay in the book is to wagon the person who is pushing the miselim (which would be herc). it's a two for one stone, lld wants the BoP, dgb gets to clean its hands by letting lld get the wagon through, let it green, and then be the first to take out LLD. am i preflipping? yes, but fuck it you know.

dgb has been pretty open about the buddying play this game, like it was last game, but there is a huge difference. dgb is actively trying to use the buddying to get votes, its a little blatant, and i think that's by design. we know dgb was buddy-y last game as town so it shouldn't raise any red flags, but i think that's superficial. the way dgb is using buddying this game is to hard push an LLD elim. dgb also keeps hinting at wanting to end the day fast, but doing that on LLD is a pretty bad idea and i think dgb should know lld's value as town, not a great person to end the day on. anyways the core of this is dgb is using buddying this game to get the agenda done of a presumably miselim while last game the budding did not feel agenda-y.

absolutely no proofreads i gtg but YEET

I forgot about this, I mostly joined the wagon for my own reasons after remembering two peopel voted for Dgb. In particular after seeing 1576 I decided to vote for DGB

In particular how is LLD 'disrupting our scum hunting' - DGB is just saying things at this point

[Dunnstral]

wait 1576 is ur own post dunn

1574

[Dunnstral]

[]1765[/]

Hit preview or submit and it will automagically link to the post

it locks it in too, this is how xtoxm slipped in the last run; he hit preview in his pt where he drafted the post

[Dunnstral]

Eh. I looked. There is a bit of an excess of posts that at least *boil down to* "I like x/I dislike x" with more words.

But there are also some posts that doesnt apply to. 1233, 1264 are a couple examples.

He's also doing analysis now, but you dont get full credit for turning on a dime when it's pointed out.

The implication that I never say "I like x" as town is wrong

I did it in Tenet, I did it in the last run of this of this setup

[Dunnstral]

i think this is a good post

works for me

[Dunnstral]

Well, yes, but I thought you were voting because of this:

i liked the points about 1055 and 1572

i don't really care whether or not you've been waffling

[Dunnstral]

Well, yes, but I thought you were voting because of this:

i liked the points about 1055 and 1572

i don't really care whether or not you've been waffling

That wasn't the only reason:
1676

ok, I misremembered

If the meta argument gets rid of the implication that it's not something I do as town (when it is) and just focuses on the analytic part, it sounds decent to me. If I were to self meta I'd say I generally don't free fire reads on a large portion of the player list when I'm scum, though I don't always do it as town either. The "I like x" in the scum games linked is me talking about one person at a time, not a bunch of people

Again, I demonstratably did "the big tell" in the last game.

You and xtoxm were both scum that game, so maybe you didn't catch onto it?

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

I don't really do the 'I can never trust this person' thing

DGB feels vaguely good but don't trust me to read there.

JV gets scumread a lot when he's town and this game hasn't moved past that point yet, so I don't suspect him (this is a null read)

Hercule looks genuinely towny now that we've moved past the early stuff

Titus, A50, ABR, I have no idea.

Never played with Ythan, keeping an eye out here now that IV has cased them

IV looks more natural after making that case and some other stuff. Couple of weird posts.

the worst is unimpressive

OkaPoka I'm trusting other people that he's town. I don't have any problems with them.

Hopkirk looks like town to me. I've seen them upset before in a game. This anger did feel overblown a bit though.

Unwnd I talked about and I didn't like his push on hopkirk. 762 feels out of character for unwnd and frankly scummy; also I thought it was talking about me for reasons but then they threw me into a would vote list without reasons so.

Winter Flakes: What do they mean by 1242? I don't think this game is that confusing. Otherwise I was townleaning them and wasn't convinced by the push against them

Xtoxm: It feels like they're not capable of posting unless they have their team behind them. Not sure what that means. Otherwise I was thinking playstyle clash but I'm not really a fan, hence my vote.

Dannflor: Pressure here in the future will be worthwhile. Exchanged banter and asked a few questions, and joined a few wagons. I don't think joining wagons is scummy, though.

[Dunnstral]

This is the genesis of my LLD scumread.

This doesn't do anything for me

[Dunnstral]

I feel like that post does have reasons, so do you mean something in forgetting about by "the big tell"

instances of dunn doing it this game:

I like Dannflor for town after thinking about it. I always have, but I'm less reserved about this read. I don't buy into mastina's case here

I agree that a50 looks like town. Not a strong read

And I don't like DGB on 37

And I do like Dann, Ceph, jjh, and to a cautious extent lld

The worst/Winter Flakes/Titus: This group feels unreadable for me; I want to say there's probably scum in this group

DGB feels vaguely good but don't trust me to read there.

Hercule looks genuinely towny now that we've moved past the early stuff

Titus, A50, ABR, I have no idea.

Never played with Ythan, keeping an eye out here now that IV has cased them

the worst is unimpressive

OkaPoka I'm trusting other people that he's town. I don't have any problems with them.

[Dunnstral]

mm, okay response. huge activity spike. probably nai.

The implication that I never say "I like x" as town is wrong

I did it in Tenet, I did it in the last run of this of this setup

the tell itself is not absolute - there are some instances of him doing it as town - but they are much rarer. people may cheery pick these to refute our case

misrepping me like this isn't going to help me trust you. there are no instances of it in v1. there's one post where you quote me say "i dont like this read"..but that doesn't

really

match what we've been looking for.
the claim isn't that you don't provide insight as scum (you do as both aligns), or that you never make empty posts as town..its that it happens

more often

as scum.

i don't really wanna get bogged down on the meta stuff tho. it's supplementary.
i'll reassess the read if im given reasons to.

I think me saying "feels vaguely good" is the same meaning even if the word choice isn't exactly the same

And there are other examples int he post I quoted

[Dunnstral]

Your read on me is underdeveloped to a point where it doesn't feel real

[Dunnstral]

You townread dgb because you scumread lld

You scumread lld because you townread the wagon

This is circular reasoning

[Dunnstral]

-the wagon feels hardstuck and that makes me think its a situation like last game where scum are just refusing to bus

Nobody was willing to explain the wagon at all until very recently

It wasn't stuck, the fact that it got to that many votes was silly

[Dunnstral]

LLD, I don't really think it's xtoxm this game. I don't know if you're into meta but I felt like I had something on them last game and they were run up and forced to claim; this game they've went beyond that. I don't really agree with their positions but they feels a lot more natural and have more to offer this time

[Dunnstral]

Like, there is not a much scummier post in this game than the one where Xtoxm wrote about 500 words on why Dunnstral was scum, more words than they had ever said about me or my alignment at the time

and ended the post with I STILL WANNA VOTE LLD in all bold.

Because it Xtoxm doesn't actually have reads, they have positions. Their positons are informed by a win condition, not a read generation, and it's very obvious, at least to me, that the generation of poitns they are making now is trhowing shit at the wall to see what sticks.

It makes sense from a town point of view

They want your wagon over mine because they think your flip reveals more information and opens the game open

Going for me instead while they still think you're scum is a distraction, even if their read on me is stronger

[Dunnstral]

the case on dunnstral

(cases are scummy version)

preface: this is the result of significant discussion between myself and auro on discord. it is not only my, or his case, it is both of ours, in my words. some elements may be influenced by auro or paraphrased.

part 1

: dunnstral is scummy in this game

shitpush on us

VOTE: Xtoxm

It's crazy that you went right back to only posting Auro's opinions, and you

just

got tripped up on that in the last game.

I guess you guys were disconnected and didn't ever understand why I was pushing you?

Also, these townreads and scumreads make me queasy. Something about the charisma values and the reads, it feels like a scum point of view.

you feel hostile

They felt hostile last game.

If you don't remember, look for the one time in all of last game where they acknowledged my existence (I wasn't even in their read list)

Dann, Agar, what do you two like about xtoxm here?

There was a spot where they were aggressive last game

They're doing the same exact type of posting where they don't acknowledge a lot of what is going on, even stuff directed at them

I don't understand how Auro's read on Hercule makes them town

from #398 to #685, where he hops on the hercule wagon (period >24h) he comments only on us. no other opinions on the game, or other players. like dgb said earlier, we think he was picking on an easy target here. i have no doubt that after v1, scum were expecting me to be an easy mis-eliminate this game. (hell, so was i)

VOTE: Hercule

Reading through to page 37 I'm not like, sold on him being scum, but I can see it going either way

shit vote on hercule. he said he's happy for this to go all the way to an eliminate. but he can see it going either way.
yet, for someone expressing such a nonchalant and uncaring attitude, he sure is hard opposed to applying the same logic to another player many of us scumread.

Spoiler: waffling

I don't townread any of these people

I think the second half of 287 by Mastina is pretty weird too.

VOTE: Hercule
Because I don't personally buy that he's towntold either

But the reads presented in 1012 are probably bad

I don't know where to side on lld and dgb. Not scumreading either atm, which could be incorrect. Not enthused about either vote though

I like Dannflor for town after thinking about it. I always have, but I'm less reserved about this read. I don't buy into mastina's case here

I agree that a50 looks like town. Not a strong read

I like 817 from lld, though, votes on the worst feel weird right now. I'm not townreading him but he's about null and said he'd post more later, and people have been putting new votes on him for a while now.

I can see herc as either town who is being pushed for not much and him having trouble in the game because he has to argue against that

OR I can see him as scum who feels caught for the wrong reasons, as pointed out by Dann and Cephrir and LLD around page 33+

Spoiler: active lurking

But you were being bussed, which is something different than a block of scum voting together on a townie

I can see herc as either town who is being pushed for not much and him having trouble in the game because he has to argue against that

OR I can see him as scum who feels caught for the wrong reasons, as pointed out by Dann and Cephrir and LLD around page 33+

I don't think their reaction is towny, at least. What I thought was towny was mostly a tone read and got town apart back to null in the next few pages, and I remember that I shifted to townreading him as the game went on last time. It seems like a fine vote to me

Thank fucking god you're town.

This is literally where I'm at right now and I'm loathe to talk much about it because the minute I stop doing the charismatic confidence bit, the hercule wagon will dissipate?

and I'm right now more certain than not he's scum... but there is a voice in the back of my head whispering bad thoughts to me, and it's talking a lot about the way the 2 wagons have progressed today, people's stances, and what makes sense for scum to do if we were both town.

Can you vibe at me wrt to that topic?

Also I want to be clear that I'm doing something I've basically never done before and being transparent with my process a bit here

Which feels really fucking vulnerable and bad, so I'm really hoping that it pays off and either cures my paranoia or refocuses me in a correct path if needed.

lol

Yeah, which wagon are you talking about, the worst or yourself?

Hercule.

Dunn if you're around I want to dismantle my own wagon I think, but I need to talk to someone who I have the remotest sense of trust in to decide whether my paranoia is legitimate or not.

It also doesn't hurt my team is in my ear about all of this too so.

These posts too mastina

and 1248

these were the only posts made by dunn this day.

I've moved on from xtoxm in case that wasn't clear.

it wasn't, and you're late to the party. i feel i'm pretty obvtown at this point, and a lot of players have called me town.

I would like to better understand why lld is currently being wagoned and where else we should be wagoning

for someone who has taken a hard stance of being opposed to the lld wagon, why has it taken so long to ask this question?

part 2

: dunnstral is playing his scum meta

we've done a fairly deep meta dive on dunn, and we believe we've found a characteristic of dunn's scum play. it is present in this game.
we did an experiment of this by having me pull links in dunn's game history direct to his iso, ones that we hadn't looked at before, and showing them blind to auro. auro would try to make a read on dunn using only his iso. i showed him 5 games of psuedo random alignments. some of them he was confident in, and called quickly, a couple he said he was unsure and guessing a little - but he called all of them correctly.

here are the links i gave to auro. i've spoilered the alignments in case you'd like to perform the experiment yourself:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Spoiler:

scum

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Spoiler:

town

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Spoiler:

town

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Spoiler:

scum

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Spoiler:

town

when dunn is town he provides insightful reads that are well explained. when he is scum, this is not always the case, especially early in the game. he is prone to making blanket statements such as "i like [player]" with little or no justification. as town, he just goes straight into explaining his positions. auro looked over these iso's, with a focus on identifying non backed up blanket statements. the tell itself is not absolute - there are some instances of him doing it as town - but they are much rarer. people may cheery pick these to refute our case, but i'll reiterate: auro called dunn's alignment correctly every time.

instances of dunn doing it this game:

I like Dannflor for town after thinking about it. I always have, but I'm less reserved about this read. I don't buy into mastina's case here

I agree that a50 looks like town. Not a strong read

And I don't like DGB on 37

And I do like Dann, Ceph, jjh, and to a cautious extent lld

The worst/Winter Flakes/Titus: This group feels unreadable for me; I want to say there's probably scum in this group

could auro have gotten lucky with 5 consecutive guesses? well, maybe. but 5 in a row is pretty long odds. auro seems to be pretty good at meta reading dunn, and he has a heavy scumread on dunn this game.

i have been reluctant to post our case, as im worried about dismantling our wagon on lld, but auro feels its time to share.

we still want to eliminate lld today

we feel this is the best flip for the game state, and we have a heavy scum read there also. we scumread both independently. perhaps this will help inform opinions on one of the players who is desperate to wagon outside of lld.

basically
-i townread pretty much the entire wagon
-she asked to boped on hercule. i have a mega tr on hercule i feel like i dont need to mis elim him first for that.
-there was a moment where i was talking to dunn and i didnt feel he was being townie at all and lld came in and called dunn town and it sounded really fake
-the wagon feels hardstuck and that makes me think its a situation like last game where scum are just refusing to bus

i think theres more but im super tired rn

This dichotomy is sort of amusing though

As you can imagine 1818 doesn't really do anything for me. Or rather, I think all of those are weak points, double so because my own name appears in there

[Dunnstral]

While I love the wagons for VCA, I still think these are T v T.

Based on what?

[Dunnstral]

jjh you know I'm not going to let you just call me scum and then duck into the shadows?

[Dunnstral]

How about you explain your agar scumread though

[Dunnstral]

Talking about JJH

[Dunnstral]

I've talked about agar recently; also why are you turning this question on me?

[Dunnstral]

LLD what do you think of DGB and the worst?

[Dunnstral]

fmpov the reasons why you guys are voting lld pls correct me if im mistaken

-she is good at scum
-townreads on her are undeserved
-she's mean
-she hasn't died yet

the third choice is so far the most convincing point anyways good night i might not be here for the next 24 hours

tbh i think the 4th reason is the most convincing point for me

VOTE: LLD

Is this satire?

[Dunnstral]

^so why do you think dgb is town?

[Dunnstral]

Dunn's asking why you townread DGB after you just pointed out how DGB reinvented history.

This is correct

[Dunnstral]

I'm not a fan of the wagon on The worst, I think I'd rather LLD over that. LLD why does it feel hard to work with you?

I still think DGB is playing way different from last game and also looks scummy here.

[Dunnstral]

So hopkirk, what is the plan if lld is town?

[Dunnstral]

So hopkirk, what is the plan if lld is town?

Is this what we call a TMI question?

If LLD is town then you're next LOL.

This is bad

i'm still sorting people. LLD isn't 100% scum here, i'm at like 40-45% on the slot being scum. how certain did you have the impression i was?

That wasn't what I asked

How do you look at the game if lld is town? Why is scum pushing this?

[Dunnstral]

Doors anyone else feel lie this game has really slowed down over the post~24hours

We need more engagement from the worst slot and lld

[Dunnstral]

what do you think scum have been doing if lld is town?

Scum are largely in the passive players like the worst and A50. mastina's fighting like hell to get vocal players eliminated because her partners aren't vocal.

Weren't you the one asking people not to intercept your questioning earlier?

[Dunnstral]

When did it become cool to call me scum this game?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: ythan
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: titus

Maybe. How is Ythan different from last game/ will they ever be readable?
Why do so many people townread dgb?

[Dunnstral]

what do you think scum have been doing if lld is town?

Scum are largely in the passive players like the worst and A50. mastina's fighting like hell to get vocal players eliminated because her partners aren't vocal.

Weren't you the one asking people not to intercept your questioning earlier?

It was to my scumread, giving them a clear answer. That was two town discussing and I jumped in.

So because you don't scumread them it doesn't matter how you act?

[Dunnstral]

Agar, I'm not seeing what you're seeing in hopkirk

[Dunnstral]

And I've started thinking Oka looks town again

[Dunnstral]

I think if you can confidently call jjh town you're lying

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: ythan
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: titus

Maybe. How is Ythan different from last game/ will they ever be readable?
Why do so many people townread dgb?

ythan cared about something last game

You're right

Ythan, do you have reads?

[Dunnstral]

Agar, I'm not seeing what you're seeing in hopkirk

I don't feel it's all that opaque but I'll properly case it out.

It's more that I don't agree with what you've been quoting so far

For what it's worth I have hopkirk at around null.

[Dunnstral]

I’m up to page 61. I’ll try and finish my catch-up today.

I'm not sure what we needed from you was to read the

entire

game but it's commendable

---

LLD I haven't been agreeing with your reads recently

[Dunnstral]

Not caring, but caring about something.

I don't disagree with Dann here

Your reads are unexpected for me... I don't actually have a problem with them though I disagree in some places. Didn't expect to see myself at the top.

Agar town

Ythan... ehhhhhh

Titus probably town

nothing on the worst, sorry, read their replacement instead

See this is what I was thinking

Kind of, Titus fluctuates.

I’m up to page 61. I’ll try and finish my catch-up today.

I'm not sure what we needed from you was to read the

entire

game but it's commendable

---

LLD I haven't been agreeing with your reads recently

Then explain why I'm wrong and I'll shift, but you've yet to really do that.

Or I'm disconnected and haven't seen it, in which case quote you doing that for me.

I did explain for xtoxm when you voted there

Now you're voting for mastina and I don't agree with that either

And I don't know if you've noticed but you're voting for people with 0 other votes on them while you're constantly sitting at 6 votes

I want to help you if you are town but I'm not willing to compromise on somebody I lightly townread or am null about over you here

[Dunnstral]

LLD you misunderstand if you think I'm threatening you

Your voting is ineffective and because I don't agree with you I also am not joining in, and I'm also trying to workw ith you here

So you don't scumread DGB?

You either agree with Mastina's logic or you start telling me why you are agreeing with her despite it being LITERAL MADE UP GARBAGE.

Listen, I don't read Mastina based on whether I agree with her, at all. That's not a factor I take into account

Maybe I'm wrong, but your argument isn't convincing to me

[Dunnstral]

Biggest SR at this stage is probably IV, based on gut mostly.

i conflated big with hard, not the first time ive done that

yeah we're really just beating ourselves today huh

[Dunnstral]

LLD can do it as town, too. But I happen to think that in this case it came from scum.

You've been using this reasoning all game and it's actually made me want to vote whoever you were talking about less

[Dunnstral]

Lilith thinks Dunnstrall is town because they think he plays with an aggressive deepwolf agenda as scum. While here he's not showing much of an agenda. Is that accurate Dunn? I wouldn't know.

Why are you asking me?

My answer is 'maybe' anyway. I don't always play for myself to be the one to survive

[Dunnstral]

Agar what I disagree with is that he is doing some of these things and that other things make him scum

For example, I don't think he's trying to start a toxic 1v1, that doesn't fit my mental picture of how he plays the game

1176 and 1187: I don't see how this is scummy rather than say, obtuse or wrong or what have you.

1173 is coming on strong and that sort of reaction might be notable in that they're more prone to getting into a kerfuffle if they're scum

[Dunnstral]

Apparently I've been 'prodded' because I haven't posted for '48 hours' and our mod isn't the kind of guy who accompanied prods with threats of physical violence. I'm kind of relieved by that.

I'll post for about an hour or so tonight. I haven't caught up outside of reading this page. Can anyone explain a read of 'not scum' that they have an agar here? He seemed dodgy and the stuff he said about me here is bad

Do you remember how he was towards Mastina in the last game? Seems similar to me.

I disagree that he's 'dodgy'.

[Dunnstral]

A50 is moving in the opposite direction in read structure from last game. Probably a good sign.

Lilith thinks Dunnstrall is town because they think he plays with an aggressive deepwolf agenda as scum. While here he's not showing much of an agenda. Is that accurate Dunn? I wouldn't know.
Says they're hard scum reading IV but also, they always scum read IV.

I thought Oka was less of a firebrand here, naturally on the same page I say this they go all scorched earth on Ythan. S_S liked his vote on LLD as a reaction test. But like, meh. :yawn:

I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

dogshit take
you cant read the 80% of my posts that arent auro either?
this is scum posting bullshit to fill out a lackluster reads post
you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?
nah dude
you're scum

I also now think Bell is scum

It's a culmination of TW being low hanging fruit and then replacing, and Bell being kind of weird here

Benefit of doubt: Bell has your team weighed in on the xtoxm read?

[Dunnstral]

I'm not scumreading ythan

They're not much above null but still, I don't want to compromise there

[Dunnstral]

I'm not scumreading ythan

They're not much above null but still, I don't want to compromise there

Where

will

you compromise?

Like people keep saying they don't love this but then offer no other options and sit on their vanity wagons. Like fuck, I'd love to yeet Hopkirk into the sun but that's clearly not happening to day and we're less than 3 days until deadline. If you don't love the wagon, whatever, but offer somewhere to coalition.

I'm not scumreading ythan

They're not much above null but still, I don't want to compromise there

Titus?

I'm not scumreading ythan

They're not much above null but still, I don't want to compromise there

Where

will

you compromise?

Like people keep saying they don't love this but then offer no other options and sit on their vanity wagons. Like fuck, I'd love to yeet Hopkirk into the sun but that's clearly not happening to day and we're less than 3 days until deadline. If you don't love the wagon, whatever, but offer somewhere to coalition.

More incredible Agar posting.

Dunn, I'd like to know your answer to this question.

Cause you won't vote Mastina, Xtoxm, Ythan. And you aren't really pushing DGB that heavily.

No not Titus. She's fluctuating between null to scummy and null to towny

Give me a few hours, I'll come back to this and I'll list out what I'm thinking; who I won't vote for and why, and my read one veryone

[Dunnstral]

My thoughts:

I like Dannflor's posts. I don't know if he posts in a way that I'd find different if he were scum. He feels good

Cephrir feels ok. Last game I was actually suspicious of him but didn't like how the wagon was forming around what seemed to be his thoughts of Mastina, this game I'm not really, except that he sometimes reverts to feeling unhelpful sometimes

Okapoka, I don't think he's that bad this game, or that different. He's just not as towny this go around which raises some eyebrows

Agar is towny, people just don't like his playstyle/posting style. Most people probably skim past his posts.

This feels like town Mastina due to the amount of energy she's able to put into whatever she is doing here, and she somehow feels different when she's scum, like she's acting in bad faith rather than just being tunneled

Xtoxm feels tonally different from the last game to a degree where they feel town this time. I think their push on lld is questionable given the reasons they laid out being, in my opinion, bad, especially when they showed they're able to case someone

The way Innocent Villager is treating me is weird. I thought they were fine but writing this out I think most of their posting is nullish and they deserve more scrutiny.

Hopkirk, I don't really know, one of my teammates thinks he's town. I don't find the case against him convincing, which leaves him at null but not towny

Winter Flakes is indeed blending into the background, and I'm also forgetting that they're in this game. I feel like last game they were a lot more involved.

Titus goes between towny and scummy. I like some of her posts, tonally, others not so much.

Ythan should probably get more scrutiny from me, he isn't doing anything, he's capable of doing stuff, he's being unhelpful for some reason. I don't have strong feelings about this flipping scum.

LLD - I think the case against them is garbage, which has been brought up several times but plowed through. I don't find them particularly towny though. I'm trying to work with them here. DGB is easily the scummier of the two which is why I'm not voting on LLD.

DGB is really scummy and different from last game. Numerous people have listed them as a strong townread but I don't think that has ever been well substantiated beyond LLD being scum (what if LLD isn't scum?). Why can't DGB and LLD both be scum anyway? That feels more likely that just LLD being scum to me

Luca Blight - Hercule was alright, I think. I don't have an opinion on what Luca has done

Bell - Predecessor felt kind of scummy, Bell feels kind of scummy

jjh927 isn't doing much, but at least he can point back to posts and his train of thought can be followed.

Almost50 is vaguely towny but I don't remember anything he's posted int he last week or so.

[Dunnstral]

elaborate about my "weird" treatment of you? is it just the fact that you're in my PoE and im very unsure on you?

And that you don't seem open to reconsideration but you're also not pushing that hard

[Dunnstral]

1. bop - lld has pushed {hercule, xtoxm, dgb}. i assert that all are town, and this play is insufficient for a scumhunter of lld's quality. you allege that dgb is scum. if dgb flips town, does this hold weight?

LLD wasn't big on dgb being scum; they are now voting and acknowledging that dgb can be scum but it wasn't what they led with.

Regardless, DGB being town does make LLD more likely to be scum, but still not locked in

2. there have been many attempts for a counterwagon. with a solid block of players who townread each other pushing the lld wagon all day, would it be easy for scum to take advantage and achieve a town!lld flip, and allow the slots who pushed hardest to bear the brunt of the fallout.

No I don't think so. And even if they could, some people just aren't predisposed to doing that

3. jjh has mentioned that he townreads much of the wagon composition on lld, which makes it a good wagon. do you agree with his logic? if yes, which slots other than dgb are not townreads for you? if dgb flips town, does this view gain strength?

I don't agree with his logic

Having a bunch of town on a wagon doesn't mean the target is mafia. If it's a well founded wagon, sure, but this one isn't and it's been shown time and time again

I've talked about my reads in 2607

If you mean my view if dgb flips town, that depends on if my read is related to dgb or not (and most of them aren't), so in general no

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

My thoughts:

I like Dannflor's posts. I don't know if he posts in a way that I'd find different if he were scum. He feels good

Cephrir feels ok. Last game I was actually suspicious of him but didn't like how the wagon was forming around what seemed to be his thoughts of Mastina, this game I'm not really, except that he sometimes reverts to feeling unhelpful sometimes

Okapoka, I don't think he's that bad this game, or that different. He's just not as towny this go around which raises some eyebrows

Agar is towny, people just don't like his playstyle/posting style. Most people probably skim past his posts.

This feels like town Mastina due to the amount of energy she's able to put into whatever she is doing here, and she somehow feels different when she's scum, like she's acting in bad faith rather than just being tunneled

Xtoxm feels tonally different from the last game to a degree where they feel town this time. I think their push on lld is questionable given the reasons they laid out being, in my opinion, bad, especially when they showed they're able to case someone

The way Innocent Villager is treating me is weird. I thought they were fine but writing this out I think most of their posting is nullish and they deserve more scrutiny.

Hopkirk, I don't really know, one of my teammates thinks he's town. I don't find the case against him convincing, which leaves him at null but not towny

Winter Flakes is indeed blending into the background, and I'm also forgetting that they're in this game. I feel like last game they were a lot more involved.

Titus goes between towny and scummy. I like some of her posts, tonally, others not so much.

Ythan should probably get more scrutiny from me, he isn't doing anything, he's capable of doing stuff, he's being unhelpful for some reason. I don't have strong feelings about this flipping scum.

LLD - I think the case against them is garbage, which has been brought up several times but plowed through. I don't find them particularly towny though. I'm trying to work with them here. DGB is easily the scummier of the two which is why I'm not voting on LLD.

DGB is really scummy and different from last game. Numerous people have listed them as a strong townread but I don't think that has ever been well substantiated beyond LLD being scum (what if LLD isn't scum?). Why can't DGB and LLD both be scum anyway? That feels more likely that just LLD being scum to me

Luca Blight - Hercule was alright, I think. I don't have an opinion on what Luca has done

Bell - Predecessor felt kind of scummy, Bell feels kind of scummy

jjh927 isn't doing much, but at least he can point back to posts and his train of thought can be followed.

Almost50 is vaguely towny but I don't remember anything he's posted int he last week or so.

That seems a lot of words for very little content.

You'd be wrong

[Dunnstral]

so you personally have me at pure null?
do you have other thoughts on winterflakes?
why town!agar here?
don't see DGB & LLD scum being likely at all since LLD wagon would have already gone through in that case is my vibe

Winter flakes was kind of scummy early then their posting got better, then they faded away, which is scummy. They had a presence in the last game too.

I liked a post agar made where he went back and responded to things with post numbers.

Last point I'm not sure that that is the case

[Dunnstral]

My read on Bell is improving.

Also, where did this come from

Because I can't think it came from Bell directly

It did. Scum!Bell doesn't try at all here. No need for him to.

Okay, but what points to Bell trying here?

I was severely unimpressed by his catchup posts that even included team reads. And then he made an excuse for "all replacements are gonna be scummy."

I am also going to say that this isn't "bell trying" to a point where they should be meta townread, or even generally townread

[Dunnstral]

I am here

what are the options? lld dgb and ythan?

Kind of yeah, Titus' name is getting thrown around too. What do you think?

[Dunnstral]

What info do we get?

[Dunnstral]

I am here

what are the options? lld dgb and ythan?

I dont really like either of those options but if lld green flips we get more info I think is she at L-1?

This feels scummy.

Not necessarily the stance being taken but the way they're popping back into the thread

[Dunnstral]

I popped back in because Infinity pinged me on discord after Oka asked him to?

feels like you're taking that a bit out of context

Perhaps, not intentionally though

Whybdid you vote for Dgb when it seemed like you wanted Lld earlier?

[Dunnstral]

Black hole tier:

[DGB, jjh927, innocentvillager, Ythan, Luca Blight]

A.k.a. the "no escape" tier

The players in this category are all scum or honorary scum, we need the mod to sort out the rest.
We WILL eliminate, vig, or otherwise sort the players in the above bracket, preferrably but not strictly necessarily from left to right. We move to eliminate the player furthest to the left, vig targets the next person. Investigatives and protectives should not target within this group.
That means the furthest to the left should claim now.

Here is what I won't be considering today:
-New tone-based considerations from day 2+
-AtE
-Wifom
-"Why would I x" from the suspect
-"Why would they claim x" from somebody else

What I will be considering:
- Claims such as innocent child, mason, friendly neighbor, etc.
- Somebody else claiming a hard inno result
- A review of day 1 play


Wormhole tier:

[mastina, Hopkirk, xtoxm]

A.k.a. the "disconnected from reality" tier

These are players whose reads lists are likely more accurate if flipped upside down.

Does that make them scum? Maybe, we should figure this group out from left to right after everyone in black hole tier is dead or cleared. This would be a good place to use investigative roles.
I don't want to continue to give xtoxm and mastina a pass to do whatever because of tone.


Anomaly tier:

[Almost50, Bell, Winter Flakes]

A.k.a. the "weird gameplay" tier

These are tertiary suspects who acted strange in some way yesterday. In fact, all of them have felt detached from the game day (including Bell's predecessor here for his slot.) After sorting through wormhole tier this would be a good place to pick up, left to right. Granted I can more easily see the people in this list as town (I did list 8 names before them after all).


Everyone else:

In no particular order I townread all of Dannflor, Cephrir, Agar, OkaPoka, Titus

I'm open to reconsideration after all of black hole tier is 'sorted', and all of wormhole tier is sorted

As an aside, yesterday LLD wasn't so clear. I mean, DGB is an order of magnitude easier tor ead as scum than LLD is as town, but there was some room for doubt.
You know what's weird about the LLD voters? They all seemed so convinced that LLD was scum. It reads as fake; you can't be that confident based off of the case that was presented.
You know what all of my townreads have in common? They all were some level of back-and-forth on the issue. They were considering things. This isn't an intentional choice in reads on my part, things just lined up that way. And most of my scumreads had hard-line stances based off of flimsy evidence.


Now, individual comments:

DGB: Now that LLD has died and flipped town - yeah, we need to elim here. We NEED to elim here and I'm not going to let us do otherwise this day phase. I cased DGB in post 1754 and talked about them earlier as well. Basically, they're completely different to last game, their reads both feel fake and are either provably wrong or I know they're wrong about myself and there is VERY little attempt from DGB to read myself.
Titus: The player in my townreads who I am most willing to reconsider on, and who voted for Lady Lambdadelta at the end, they almost made it into Anomaly tier, but upon review I found her to be a step up from my other reads and did not want to sort there. Regardless of my read here, we're not sorting Titus before the likes of xtoxm and mastina, and all the players I listed above. A decent amount those players have been pushing Titus as well, if I remember correctly.
jjh927: The only good thing in this iso is the part where he tries to figure out Titus. Their reads suck: They are wormhole tier and are better served upside down, but their individual play and pushing of the LLD/Titus wagons pushes them up to wormhole tier.
xtoxm/mastina: Same thought for both: Don't let them get away with 'tone'. If this weren't team mafia these two would be in wormhole tier on policy, they are close to the event horizon. The only reason they're not in wormhole tier is because, to put it bluntly, they're both terrible town players and so even if they're wrong about everything it holds less weight.
innocentvillager: Starts off on DGB, ditches to vote me, and then hard pushes LLD under the guise of progressing the game. Wants Titus wagoned. LLD thought this was scum. He dies.
Hopkirk: Upside down reads list. 2815: "Town- DGB, Xtoxm, Mastina, Hercule; POE- LLD, Ceph, Oka, Agar". Seriously?
Luca Blight: Luca Blight himself has had some good comments, and some bad comments. At the end of the day, he voted for LLD for some reason despite talking abotu DGB earlier, and as LLD put it there were reasons for finding Hercule scummy that didn't go away. The slot I'm least sure of in black hole tier, so I put it at the end, but I do believe it needs to go sooner rather than later.
Ythan: At a certain point we have to accept that playing different last game means they are scum this game. That point will hopefully be right after we've finished yeeting DGB, jjh927, and innocent villager. 2712 is notably sketchy and talks about DGB, Titus, and LLD. Lists me as their top townread in 2202 but i don't know what to make of that.
Almost50/Winter Flakes/Bell: They all took a back seat for a large portion of the day. Winter Flakes said LLD was an information elim but then voted DGB at the end, I'm not sure what to make of that.
Dannflor/Cephrir/Agar/OkaPoka: I townread all of them and don't have anything else to say about them at this time.

[Dunnstral]

Dannflor has been killed on Night One. He was a

Town 3-shot Announcing Neapolitan

.
DrippingGoofball has been killed on Night One. It was a

Town Tracker

.

It is now Day Two. Deadline is set for 2 weeks from now at 11:00 AM PST, in (expired on 2021-02-28 15:00:00). With 15 alive, it takes 8 votes to eliminate.

Alright, so we're going for "honorary scum" on that one and Titus was right, and everyone else on my list is now 33% more likely to be scum than if DGB was one

VOTE: jjh927

[Dunnstral]

The time for being chill was day 1

Winter flakes is scummier than indicated with the revelation that DGB was town

[Dunnstral]

Same for innocentvillager

[Dunnstral]

What's a neopolitan?

Checks a player and sees if they are a vanilla townie or not

So, a moderately powerful role. Stronger than tracker.

[Dunnstral]

dunn did akarin help you out on that readslist jw

no

well, I was talking to akarin a bit, but I didn't have anyone go over my post

[Dunnstral]

dunnstral you've played with me enough to know this is transparently town!me i feel like? or at least have strong doubt? i don't feel your analysis of me warrants your hard SR

Can you explain further?

How is this transparently town you?

[Dunnstral]

DGB being dead town is really taking the wind out of my "you're all fools" line of posting i had planned today

I need to reconsider some things today

[Dunnstral]

our reads all suck and people who are confident tunnelling should probably tone it down

Right, it was fine to tunnel lld all of last day but today 20 minutes into the day it needs to be toned down

[Dunnstral]

Neither of the two more recent flips have changed anything for me since I TRed both of them, but things are probably worth a reread now considering the two main wagons at the end there were both town and some strange things did happen with wagons at eod there

I don't believe you tring LLD is correct

[Dunnstral]

JJ why the switch off Titus and onto LLD?

Because the LLD wagon is bigger and if I've changed my vote once already then I can change it again

I will take LLD or Titus

I would also vote Bell but I don't think I will need to compromise to any extent

???

[Dunnstral]

Why are you voting for Titus?

[Dunnstral]

I was targeted by a babysitter. I'll be afk today. Spending the afternoon with a date online.

How would you know that?

You know what, don't answer that actually; I believe it.

[Dunnstral]

NRG squad

Is it possible for babysitter to be a scum-aligned role?

[Dunnstral]

Titus' didn't want the lld wagon. The wagons collapsed on dgb and lld and they went lld; both were town.

This isn't a bad progression compared to someone who was tunneling on lld or dgb earlier?

[Dunnstral]

i am kind of frustrated rn and i will try and come back when im not so i dont tilt off in thread

Help me understand why I should think you are transparently town when you get back

[Dunnstral]

I was targeted by a babysitter. I'll be afk today. Spending the afternoon with a date online.

What? How are you not dead?

The babysitter has to die to kill their target

[Dunnstral]

The main unwritten option other than LLD or DGB was Titus at that point

She may have phrased her LLD vote as necessary to get a flip but I think it was survival when she really wanted cred from being correct on whoever got flipped out of those 2
Although I'll admit at the time I thought it was a bus

So how does town Titus play it differently?

[Dunnstral]

Titus didn't want the LLD wagon or the DGB wagon but didn't do anything else

That's a lie. I pushed my scumreads but no one bit. I compromised on a null read and was promptly counterwagoned. You can see that in my votes. Ineffective doesn't mean I didn't try.

Both wagons were T v T. Scum likely pushed it that way to avoid a Ythan elimination.

Careful. Ythan wagon was a thing after both lld and dgb were already things

[Dunnstral]

A50, you had a weird feeling on me but I'm a townread now after flips - is it based on the way I'm posting?

I like that post

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral

you have to understand that, i don't play this game to roll mafia and relish in being a manipulative liar

i play this game because i like figuring out the mafia team, and when i get invested especially, i really want to win, you know this is straight from my town meta

i guess you haven't seen me as scum but it's way different, yes i play to win for the most part but i can't fake the energy, genuine interrogation, fresh content, and sustained presence in thread that I do as town and frankly i doubt many scumplayers can to the extent that i do (yes, even though I know it's my problem, I just still can't), let alone me, a literal shit-tier scumplayer

ive been complaining about both D1 wagons and they both flipped town and that's scummy how? i don't really understand what the case on me is in general

but this is going to fall on deaf ears because you've literally already said you won't entertain self-meta arguments like this

OK

I wasn't under the impression that your town game was so different from your scum game

I didn't say I wouldn't entertain self-meta I meant specifically "why would I do x" type arguments

I can keep this in mind

[Dunnstral]

VCA dictates you should be SR'd,

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Luca???

Man why did we have to lose both my rocks day 1. The SS Warthog is left without a rudder.

What do you think of jjh today?

What do your 5 shots look like?

[Dunnstral]

dunn - being scummy again.

You had specific reasons for me being scum last time

Or Auro did.

[Dunnstral]

given the wagons yesterday were tvt, my thoughts on what scum were doing yesterday:

#1 didn't probably care ultimately which way the elim went
#2 i think its clear the lld-parkers were more committed than the dgb voters, i dont even think dgb would have been eliminated today, tbh..therefore i expect scum may have preferred the dgb wagon, to maintain the gamestate of lld being wagon parked again today
#3 maybe scum also had elements of fear in voting lld due to reputation or something

given this my slots of interest are:
WF - talked about lld being the better info elim, but then voted dgb instead, with little reasoning provided. fits with (#1) and (#2)
a50 - absent entirely at deadline, never a good sign. fits with (#1). bad takes coming into today

also:
bell - prior susp on this slot. fits (#2). auro thinks his conversation with agar near EOD sounded, in hindsight, informed that both wagons were on town.

dunn - being scummy again. the pre-written post seems like a massive over-reaction to a d1 mis-elim. his plans dont alter at all with the new info on dgb-town.

im not throwing out all my reads bc of one incorrect scumread. my tr was correct on dgb also. the dgb voters were also all wrong.

I disagree; lld voters were very convinced off of nothing, dgb voters were going back and forth and thinking things through. That's the way I see it.

[Dunnstral]

Ah yes, let's still find a way for voting LLD to be a town tell somehow

you are really wasting a chance at an ally by doing this since you call me a higher tr and i tr you to, and i came into today planning to be a lot more compromising after lld-town

if ppl keep being shits i'll just be toxic back, vote a pet scumread and go lurk

Hey xtoxm this isn't the mish-mash subforum and we're not playing survivor; change your reads accordingly

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Luca???

Man why did we have to lose both my rocks day 1. The SS Warthog is left without a rudder.

What do you think of jjh today?

What do your 5 shots look like?

Eh. Could still vote there, he sure seems content to just keep doing his thing.

Something like titus, Luca, jjh, bell, winter

Why Titus?

I agree Winter should get more scrutiny than I previously indicated

[Dunnstral]

Why do you think Winter Flakes is likely to be town?

[Dunnstral]

the pre-written post seems like a massive over-reaction to a d1 mis-elim. his plans dont alter at all with the new info on dgb-town.

i agree it seems like a bit of an overreaction, but why is it scum!indicative? how do you feel about my reaction to getting shade thrown on me earlier today, is that also scum!indicative?

"his plans don't alter" is potentially a fair point if true?

@Dunnstral

does/why doesn't DGB's flip make you reconsider your readslist?

I am reconsidering; mainly due to the wagons. I still think a lot of the same things; DGB flipping town doesn't really clear anyone in my eyes, should I be thinking differently?

[Dunnstral]

given Mastina's biggest SR just flipped Town it's quite possible her reads/view of the game may have altered somewhat

good one

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: mastina

Case me or die. I want to have this out. I may not respond right away but I want you solved. No more vague meta statements. If I am wrong on you, I should be able to see you having genuine logic here, even if wrong.

This feels like Titus knows a case on her in incoming and she's trying to preemptively discredit it.

This is not a good argument

[Dunnstral]

I'm leaning town on Dunnstrall for 3154. It seems like legit Townie solving, although it was obviously pre-written and prepared and his posts in general haven't been near that standard.

I still don't get his point that I 'talked about DGB' and then voted Lady Lamb? Perhaps you can explain that one.

I don't remember why I said that and it doesn't appear to be true on review, I was probably mistaken

[Dunnstral]

I think IV is town and Winterflakes belongs in the blackhole tier.
I don't think a Dunnstral vote should almost ever be a blackmark against someone, esp. day 1.

The IV town read is based less on meta and more on content being relatively varied, a broad focus on the game and I don't really think his anxiousness is faked anymore.

Outside of that, just from meta, I know there are like, 2-4 IV playstyles. I've never played with IV scum, but I do know that his town game can vary and that he goes from super anxious town to weirdly confident shit posting. His votes jumping around might be due more to playstyle than opportunism. But it's possibly just opportunism, lol.

I believe Mastina has limited connection due to power outages due to the cold-ass weather I want to focus more on her and think we're just sort of ignoring her from effort.

I think Luca has been in catch up mode for a suspiciously long time. I would normally have caught up over night if I hadn't been on vacation. What's your excuse Luca?

Yeah I can agree with IV looking town right now

Not 100% on Winter needing to be in black hole, 3440 kind of goes into their motivations. It's less that they were pushing both wagons and more that they were pushing neither and hanging back. Which is not great, but not what I was initially thinking

[Dunnstral]

Agar:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1811.07851.pdf

Page 4.

Ok y'know what I'm not gonna read that and just go with "ok cool you actually have statistical proof."

"In our dataset, an average town-aligned slot
has 0.33 replacements, while an average Mafiaaligned
slot has 0.35 replacements, meaning that a
replacement is 6% more likely to be Mafia"

Wow, 6%

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn, why jjh over Ythan?

Good question, I wasn't feeling confident on Ythan. Agar makes a good point that there would have to be 4 wagons on town yesterday if you and ythan were both town.

meh ythan is a scumlean but i hold out hope that we will see what we saw for a moment near end of day there

Can you remind me what we saw at the end of day and why it was town?

[Dunnstral]

I don't agree with your assessment that Titus is preemptively goign after Mastina to defend herself - it doesn't make sense and it doesn't account for what she would do as town.

[Dunnstral]

Do you have any scumreads besides Titus?

[Dunnstral]

I kinda regret that already

What do you want to do?

[Dunnstral]

My

I'm also becoming increasingly suspicious of Bell.

My suspicions there follow a bell curve

[Dunnstral]

Yeah this jjh wagon is a shitty wagon I'm calling it.

Who do you think we should be voting?

[Dunnstral]

Does it matter whether he dumbtold or not when it's about whether a third party role can be in the game?

[Dunnstral]

im just going to get out of the thread

dunn my allegiance still stands

I don't really understand the arguments being made in the last 2-3 pages

[Dunnstral]

I think the obvious answer is that he's attacking whoever pays attention to him.

The irony.

Ythan is enjoying taking refuge in logic against an illogical player. It's not a town trait, nor is the fact that this is the one thing he's able to post about, and I'm disappointed in oka for following it.

Yeah I don't really believe a50 is any more scum from what he's posting, even if I can't make sense of it

[Dunnstral]

I'm feeling a bit lost rn

There's no-one I'm happy voting for rn

That's fair.

It's probably a good idea to go back and look at day 1 play around wagons instead of tone-based reads on day 2

[Dunnstral]

I don't think discussing whether the babysitter is town or scum is helpful right now. I also don't think Titus is lying

[Dunnstral]

But Titus is just scum this game and has been from her very first post.

The one where she went v/la......

[Dunnstral]

Titus do you agree that you look flat and lifeless this game?

[Dunnstral]

So despite my post at the start of the day, I can see reasons for a lot of people being town

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Ythan

[Dunnstral]

I liked Ythan pushing on the rest of my black hole tier earlier today but maybe that was for another reason

[Dunnstral]

No offense Ythan but if he's choosing to fakeclaim on someone why does he go for you

[Dunnstral]

UNVOTE: Ythan

[Dunnstral]

im so confused i have no idea what Ythan or Oka are talking about goddammit am i just a fucking idiot

it's ok we're stupid together

He's being intentionally vague but it looks like ythan is claiming (again) or gambitting or something

[Dunnstral]

Unrelated I feel like I need to, like, recalibrate, refocus, figure out where I'm going.

I think voting for jjh would still be ~okay~

[Dunnstral]

Is this what bell being useless looks like? I haven't actually seen it so I wasn't sure

I'm still thinking about this

[Dunnstral]

Dunn do you have any other thoughts?

I don't... really want to kill ythan or a50 right now, but I don't know where scum is.

[Dunnstral]

I’d rather not vote for my partner :/

If it's just this, I don't really care about it

[Dunnstral]

Yes but if we come to a point that a50 would be eliminated then it's better for the vig to have a chance to shoot him.

Is there a specific reason you want him shot and not elimmed?

[Dunnstral]

let's keep being confusing and have a conversation that everyone but ceph understands

The sparrow perches in the

Mountains

[Dunnstral]

actually i need dunn in here to convince a50 he's not going to listen to me

Now that the babysitter is outted I'd prefer if it targetted people a50 suspects rather than try to save people, but you shouldn't indicate how you're using it from now on

[Dunnstral]

Maybe we can have him target probable scum and the vig shoot him idk JUST SPITBALLING

This is a bad idea; if we think he's scum, vigging him gives his team an extra kill

If we don't think he's scum, we shouldn't be shooting him

[Dunnstral]

lol I'm increasingly unsure Luca is town but that'll have to wait until tomorrow

there's no chance of this being a crumb, is there?

Speaking of which, is there a reason that whoever Dann targeted hasn't revealed that information?

[Dunnstral]

can we all be friends and rate my towncore

me, dunn, agar, ceph, iv, xtoxm, ythan

add a couple more names collectively and then i really dont care who we kill as long as we just start chaining down the list

Sure, I'm fine with this.

[Dunnstral]

Well if he's scum he's not going to die at night, preferably

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Luca Blight

[Dunnstral]

Because I kind of think he was indicating that he'd target you at the end of the day

[Dunnstral]

i want to vig him

This remains not a good idea. Vigging a50 is never going to be a good idea because if he's scum, he gets an extra shot on whoever he wants, and if he's town, then we should target who he's targetting directly

[Dunnstral]

So you think I'm lying about not receiving a message saying I was targeted?

I just double-checked my pm's and I definitely didn't get a message, other than a day start pm.

Why would I even need to lie about this if I were scum?

Not sure but I do feel he indicated he'd go for you twice at day end

[Dunnstral]

Not really, I think the way he said it implied he had an ability which is good enough reason to kill him on its own

[Dunnstral]

Then why Luca?

Because I kind of think he's lying and he got targeted