Open 805 Panic Room Day 1

[Daenerys and Dragons]

first!!!

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Second!

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

testing sig

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

skitter <3

I'm actually only here for the alliteration, the only episode of GoT I've watched is the series finale

[Daenerys and Dragons]

oops bad at signing - Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

i was gonna vote 'dnd hydra' until i realized that could be construed as a vote on ourself, lol

early townpings on lilith, yay!

~ skitter

townpings from what, exactly?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

skitter <3

I'm actually only here for the alliteration, the only episode of GoT I've watched is the series finale

LILITH
I THOUGHT YOU WERE A GOT FAN WHEN WE MADE THIS ACCOUNT
OMGGG

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

skitter <3

I'm actually only here for the alliteration, the only episode of GoT I've watched is the series finale

LILITH
I THOUGHT YOU WERE A GOT FAN WHEN WE MADE THIS ACCOUNT
OMGGG

-Dragons

oops?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

can i just cite the inverse of the pyp game where i had the exact opposite read off of your first like three posts?

your demeanor/happiness/vibes is different between the two alignments and now that i know what i'm looking for it's p easy to tell the difference

~ skitter

meh

I don't think I really agree but probably not worth arguing about yet

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Skitter I hope this will be a good game so I can help redeem Tenet

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I'm skeptical of "this person is vibing in the early game therefore they're town" reads, they may work for some people but in general I haven't found them to be accurate.

what “vibing” reads is this referring to?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

also as a reminder.... both hydras are D&D so you probably need to specify which one you’re voting for - @infinity and penguin I think

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Lilith, have we actually played together??

Don’t think so!

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

VOTE: D&D >:(

Hi!

VOTE: Infinity

Hydras please turn on sigs with names thanks

VOTE: infinity

interesting posts to be quoting as part of a post voting infinity, sure. What about these posts led gc to vote infinity?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I'm p sure penguin's was a meme acknowledging that

~ skitter

Was it? regardless, infinity also voted “D&D” and I’d assume his intent was clear, but I have no idea what mod will and won’t count as votes for us vs you

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

lol

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I doubt skitter is giving easy townreads because someone “vibed in earlygame”

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

3 votes currently on infinity

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

assuming infinity's is an oversight

he fixed it by explicitly voting me

[Daenerys and Dragons]

VOTE: D&D >:(

Hi!

VOTE: Infinity

Hydras please turn on sigs with names thanks

VOTE: infinity

interesting posts to be quoting as part of a post voting infinity, sure. What about these posts led gc to vote infinity?

- Daenerys

@gc what’s the significance of quoting murder’s vote here?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Pedit i thought was a reaction to ur recent posting from just now

that’s why I wrote “lol,” same end effect though

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

What about these posts led gc to vote infinity?

Feel like we should don a sleuth hat and grab a magnifying glass.

I do enjoy sherlock holmes games!

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

What do you want to talk about re: skitter?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t really think skitter came off as defensive, maybe like.. confused that infinity assumed a reason for her read that wasn’t true and wasn’t stated. Can we instead talk about why shadowslug seems to think her response is “annoyed in a defensive way”?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t really think skitter came off as defensive, maybe like.. confused that infinity assumed a reason for her read that wasn’t true and wasn’t stated. Can we instead talk about why shadowslug seems to think her response is “annoyed in a defensive way”?

- Daenerys

Well now this just seems like you're inviting other people to question me rather than doing the dirty work yourself

Okay

Explain why you think skitter’s response is “annoyed in a defensive way”

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

boop

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t really think skitter came off as defensive, maybe like.. confused that infinity assumed a reason for her read that wasn’t true and wasn’t stated. Can we instead talk about why shadowslug seems to think her response is “annoyed in a defensive way”?

- Daenerys

I don't think it's AI (for shadow)

Why is it NAI in this case?

Is shadow not responding to the question and instead shading me also NAI?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Actually first question which I dont think anyone asked yet is why is that Yyotta post not one scum would make?

Why not ask her yourself if you think the answer is important?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Shadow is one of my 4 townreads

~ skitter

orly

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Why vote gc?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

What’s the difference between my response and gc’s response to shadow?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

yes.. it was clearly meant to be snarky.

Now would you respond to 124?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Why is it NAI in this case?

Just cause I see how someone could think that

Why specifically for shadow, as your post seems to imply?

Can you respond to my second question as well?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Hi!

What’s wrong the infinity votes?

Am I scummy?

Also lol yvotta

Skitter do you have meta on yvotta?

I didnt like him asking if he was scummy here

VOTE: daenerys

I also felt like this was bad timing for a lilith vote (as i think she waa fairly town for her / hadnt done anything scummy just then. And i kinda think he should be giving my lilith read some level of credence but perhaps that is too egocentric of me to expect, esp. at this stage)

But then ir was clarified that this was a clarification of his earlier dnd vote, so i didnt mind it as much

~ skitter

sorry, I guess this was not very clear. when I said "oh he fixed it by voting me," that was a joke. his revoting on me seemed "serious." did infinity ever clarify himself?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

i might be new but that doesnt mean you should say "newbie did this" for every move i make

it's like saying the "new guy" when you have a new person at school. it's a little patronising

I think this is a town post

Uh its just not a post scum makes?

~ skitter

nervous isn't the right word but this seems like you're getting annoyed at their questioning of you in a defensive way

Eh it was more that i dont have words to elborate than being defensive i would say

I already have townpings on 4 slots!

~ skitter

Also probably town

what about these posts is towny?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@infinity in case it wasn’t clear, I’m now officially asking if your vote is ~serious~

-Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

For skitter I just relate to that post on a personal level

which part, the explanation for sounding “defensive”?

-Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

okay, I guess I don’t hate your explanation. I don’t think that post is particularly town-indicative for skitter though.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

hello after a long day of Sundance movies and Royal Rumble I am here to enlighten you all

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

oh shit there are two D&Ds in this game
this has never happened before...

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I am going to lean towards defending skitter here having just recently seen her get horribly miselimmed twice (in Betrayal and Tenet)

i like skitter but they seem kinda nervous right now

UNVOTE:

Skitter tends to always read that way
let her do her thing for a bit

Uh its just not a post scum makes?

~ skitter

nervous isn't the right word but this seems like you're getting annoyed at their questioning of you in a defensive way

This

I don't think this was anything noteworthy

I don’t really think skitter came off as defensive, maybe like.. confused that infinity assumed a reason for her read that wasn’t true and wasn’t stated. Can we instead talk about why shadowslug seems to think her response is “annoyed in a defensive way”?

- Daenerys

Well now this just seems like you're inviting other people to question me rather than doing the dirty work yourself

Probably gonna vote this once I'm done reading up and see where lilith landed

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I like Salsabil's entrance. Feels genuine.

His posts dont feel like ones (newb) scum make

(Sorry i know u just said u dont like that but that's where ghe read is coming from

Same with yyotta)

~ skitter

Pedit dont like the shadow vote

I actually liked the shadow vote because I wanted to do the same thing.

Avoiding (twice!) the question while attacking the player questioning your behavior is very new player scum behavior.

^this is good logic

Yeah I get what you are saying.

How are you reading PP right now?

VOTE: PenguinPower

Murder your opening is feeling a little weird this game...

VOTE: GC

GC keeps pinging me, I guess it doesn't feel like there's genuine scumhunting underneath his caginess?

Shadow, I feel like that would be scummy if anything? (Newbscum are more likely to be lost/confused I think) Though the slip was probably genuine.

I have the opposite opinion. Feels like shadow is the one faking here.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

VOTE: shadowslug

By far my strongest SR after catching up.
Need to talk to lilith more.

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

VOTE: shadowslug

By far my strongest SR after catching up.
Need to talk to lilith more.

-Dragons

Doubt you need to talk to lilith since you've both read the game in the same way

You both defend skitter and ascribe scummy intent to my questioning of skitter (why? you acknowledge skitter might come off as defensive to people who aren't familiar with her play, so isn't my point legitimate?)

?????
Why would I not need to talk about reads with my hydra partner?

I think there could be a benefit to scum appearing lost and confused--people might give them the benefit of the town, and it's not a scumtell I've seen people use often.

Cakez do you still SR shadow on this page? The reasoning feels very genuine here, 187 felt like he thought he caught scum, and he also townslipped.

I actually didn't like 187 the reasoning felt convoluted

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@infinity please explain reason for stating townread on skitter

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@gc weren’t you scum in ambic’s fogeys game? I no longer seem to have access to the forum so unfortunately cannot compare play/no longer have a comparison for you

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not sure if I am townreading skitter, I think I saw one thing that struck me as towny, but I don’t really like auro’s posts

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

boop?

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@skitter how/why is this penguin different from jk9++ penguin?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

(:

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I can't understand anything! First of all, I'm struggling with all of your names, specially with the profile/personal names. Secondly, at the first few pages, I thought everything is going on in RVS state, then suddenly everything becomes serious and it messes my head cause I can't find/understand the basis of these votes at all. I need to re-read the thread again.

ping

I thought that post felt very real
Honestly I was struggling to parse some arguments early on too so I relate.

hth thats a bad reason to not vote me, i'm town and not yet in the neighborhood so my death on a rush elimination would actually be pretty useful for town info

This kinda feels LAMIST-y

@Town:

Are you in a neighborhood?

@Scum:

How's it going today?

Also I think 6 votes is a hammer so now... Even though my brain is still struggling to understand what is going on...
VOTE: shadowslug

????????????????????????????

Also I think 6 votes is a hammer so now... Even though my brain is still struggling to understand what is going on...
VOTE: shadowslug

If you don't know what's going on why the hell are you voting me?

Well, I don't really have any solid scumreads at the moment but I'm just voting based on what my few brain cells managed to work out.

mmmm don't like this post

Yeah I remember misreading cakez a lot when I used to play with him back in the day, my read on daenerys & dragons will mostly be based on lilith's play + skitter's opinion

I have a history of being the scummy half of this hydra and getting poor lilith miselimmed with me
I hope this game will not be a repetition of that

to try to get PP to do stuff but then he just didn't lol. So I guess this vote is useless.

I’m not sure why you thought your vote on me would get me to change how i play...you’re being weird murderkitty, and it’s unsettling.

This is actually a good point
PP seems to be playing to town meta from what I vaguely recall from playing with him before

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

FL is in this game?????????

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

???

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Why are you voting shadowslug? What does not knowing that it’s 6 votes to a hammer have to do with it?

Also can we 1) not discuss roles and 2) not confuse people by bringing up people who aren’t in the game / if they are in the game then can we clarify that please

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

like, trying to not be pissy but I don’t understand the purpose of bringing up FL and notsci. is it a cute inside joke? are they actually in the game as alts? can we just not do this weird vague thing at all?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

ah yes, because waking up to a mention of a player who I thought was not in this game just can’t possibly be confusing

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I feel like I’ve been quite diplomatic about it but shall I explain?

as should be well-documented by now, I have very limited mental capacity for games (note I am only ever in 1 at a time now). I am tired and cranky almost 24/7, to say nothing about my eyeballs feeling like they’re on fire most of the time. I am also emphatically not a morning person. I can only check games in between (or during, don’t @ me) work calls and if I see things that don’t make sense, I can’t help but feel confused as well as a bit pissy that someone else is wasting my brain energy by attempting to make cute jokes or whatever this is - and now instead of being able to focus on producing content for the small amount of attention I can give, I now have to wonder if there are secret alts in this game (and I hate secret alts) or if auro and yyotta are trying to signal something to each other or wtf is happening if it’s not one of those two. I feel like my request is pretty reasonable? or else just like, explain what you’re doing?

If you think I’m “faking” confusion, then please explain what you think I have to gain from doing that/what my motivations would be in doing so.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

and now I have wasted even more brain capacity on this. goodbye

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

-snip-
Voting is better than not voting, right?

That's not what I didn't like
The tone felt like you were using the "need to vote" to make your Shadow vote seem inconsequential

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Excuse me?

1) where did that happen?
2) so you’ve graduated to just calling me fake?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I didn’t realize that’s what that was. however:

can we 1) not discuss roles

what is this if not saying to stop discussing it?

so to summarize:
- you are not actually reading my posts
- you are calling my reaction fake
- you are calling my response to you calling my reaction fake fake as well

you may not be interested in pursuing this line of conversation, but I am. please explain to me what you think my motivations are for “posturing” like this and for my post not being “serious.”

same goes for gc.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

wow holy fuck notsci is the mod

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I’m running on negative hours of sleep, don’t have brain to process jokes. See prior post.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

well this is embarrassing. however my question still stands - what do you think I have to gain from pretending to be this dense?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Not sure I keep needing to quote myself but yes I clearly responded to it with concern?

Also can we 1) not discuss roles

And yes I assumed there was a possibility it was a joke but also like - refer to prior posts - making me waste brain energy on actually parsing whether or not it was a joke or something else is/was making me pissy

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

And now back to my original question: what motivation do you think I have, as either alignment, to “posture” here?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

ok I mean, I was on a work call and only had enough time for the one post? my confusion overshadowed pretty much any other response I had, because again, all brain energy spent on parsing whether or not it was a joke? am I expected to always have a perfectly logical reaction to literally everything?

still not answering my question, are you

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

..... yes? what?

Why call me out for posturing if you don’t think it’s scum-indicative?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

ok but I bring it up in my next post???????? and you raised the “concern” after seeing both posts so it’s not like you were missing the second part of it and were like, lilith is missing a key piece of the reaction she should have - I had the reaction you think I should have, just not right at that second because I was distracted. It’s not like I went on to talk about other things and then “remembered”

pt 2: this is not an answer. Please describe, specifically, what you think scum!me wanted to gain with that “posturing”

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

like just give me a straight fucking answer. Why are you calling me out for “posturing”?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

you missed this part in your quote:

because I was distracted

because I was distracted

because I was distracted

so is your assumption that all town will have a perfect response entirely reasonably at every single moment? or is it just me, since you seem to have such a penchant for BoPing me?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Pt 2. to appear towny? To make the other slot look scummier?

and have I gained any of those things?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

furthermore - I’ve now discussed my responses at length. Are you still maintaining that my initial response was “posturing”?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

right, let her know that if you guys call me scum I’m considering that a scumclaim

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

skitter you know i love you and i think you’re great. this isn’t personal.

@whoever is interested: skitter is within top 3 players onsite with ability to read me. probably top 1 if not close to it. she has crazy accuracy on me. therefore I will consider scumreading me a scumclaim, from her specifically.

@whoever else is interested re: “this argument is going nowhere”: I have unorthodox methods, I know. they don’t make a lot of sense to most people, I know. However, my methods have really worked for me - see [redacted].

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not sure if I am townreading skitter, I think I saw one thing that struck me as towny, but I don’t really like auro’s posts

- Daenerys

What about them don't you like?

combination of gut and now [redacted]

[Daenerys and Dragons]

depends. I still expect skitter to be reading me as town.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Doesn’t preemptively giving away the activity that you see as a scum claim reduce the probability that they will take that action?

/shrug

I’m not really concerned about that. I’m perfectly able to sort people when they’re townreading me too. more just letting them know I won’t go easily.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Pt 2. to appear towny? To make the other slot look scummier?

and have I gained any of those things?

- Daenerys

Yes lol, I think you look very towny after that interaction

Auro is weird and cagey, but I can't make much AI out of him.

I mean obviously I think I do too, but the point I’m trying to make is, could I have expected that outcome? What angle does Auro think I’m trying to take wrt my “posturing” that makes him call it out in a way that implies he thinks it’s scum-indicative?

Have not gotten a very satisfactory response from him, or at least enough that I can call that thought process in calling my post “posturing” as genuine.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Which is why I was reluctant to pursue it further.

[redacted]!!!!!!

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

boop

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t have like, extensive meta. have played one additional game with him as town though, and to me he was like, couched in reasonableness and logic.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

er, to clarify - he was town, I was scum

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Why are you voting shadowslug? What does not knowing that it’s 6 votes to a hammer have to do with it?

@yyotta

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Auro I’d like you to explain to me your thought process behind 490. I realize you think I’m belaboring the point past reasonableness, but I still feel like you haven’t actually explained why you made this post and keep redirecting me with these roundabout questions about what scum in general would be doing.

Can you explain why you think I made those posts in order to appear more towny? Or why you think I was trying to make someone else look scummy? What gave you that impression, what were you looking to achieve when you made this post, were you trying to sort me or GC with it?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

in addition, you previously stated a townread on me and now have “lost that townread” - what caused the change?

- Daenerys

balls I was doing so well

[Daenerys and Dragons]

skitter you know i love you and i think you’re great. this isn’t personal.

@whoever is interested: skitter is within top 3 players onsite with ability to read me. probably top 1 if not close to it. she has crazy accuracy on me. therefore I will consider scumreading me a scumclaim, from her specifically.

@whoever else is interested re: “this argument is going nowhere”: I have unorthodox methods, I know. they don’t make a lot of sense to most people, I know. However, my methods have really worked for me - see [redacted].

- Daenerys

what tells do you think you have given so far that skitter would be able to pick up on and townread you for? isn't that townread also based on you being able to effectively play to your town meta in a way that skitter can identify?

lol I don’t think this is ever a problem for me, but sure:
- probing questions
- level of interest
- engagement with specific people
- skitter herself at the very beginning of this game brought up my “excitement.” I disagree that this is a perfect tell for me on principle but this is probably true to some extent.

about the unorthodox methods - what is this referring to? was that altercation with auro an example of that?

Yes. I think pretty much anyone who has ever played with me would be able to provide at least one example of where I drilled deeply on someone like that.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

i think a few people have said auro is posting weird or scummy or whatever - can someone explain this? not getting that impression right now

have you read my posts?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t think it was incredibly scum-indicative, but refusal to respond to me/what seems like attempts to discredit me and redirect and mislead me are definitely heading in that direction.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

... I just mostly felt confused?? I don’t even think I came across as that upset or mean until after auro called it “posturing.” but also I’m petty as fuck/cranky/not a morning person and it was way too early for me, so I assume some of that might have come through.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I’m a tryhard and I take literally everything seriously though. like irl I just don’t get jokes.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

lol I don’t think this is ever a problem for me, but sure:
- probing questions
- level of interest
- engagement with specific people
- skitter herself at the very beginning of this game brought up my “excitement.” I disagree that this is a perfect tell for me on principle but this is probably true to some extent.

would these not be able to be faked as mafia and would you not alter your playstyle to appeal to the people that can read you if you are scum?

trust me, I’ve tried. skitter is now something like 5/5 on me. I really hate to use self-meta/examine my own scumgames but.... I’m pretty polarized.

I had a vague sense of unease on auro’s posts before today but not really anything concrete

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Isn't skitter really good at scum? Like she is surface level townie sure but I am worried about that.

yes. good rule of thumb is to never townread skitter D1 (sorry skitter)

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

sorry I’m more interested in auro as I don’t really think I’ll have much success sorting you (see above). Not really anything top of mind for me to ask you

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

sorry I’m more interested in auro as I don’t really think I’ll have much success sorting you (see above). Not really anything top of mind for me to ask you

- Daenerys

ok. fwiw from what i read i think ur interaction with him was a bit scummy and i'm sad

~ skitter

please do explain

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

and i hope it's ok to ask but are you, like, ok? like irl?

I mean..... no? work got worse, not better, so

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

And now back to my original question: what motivation do you think I have, as either alignment, to “posture” here?

- Daenerys

and fwiw i don't think you're posturing (like as either alignment you could have forgotten/not realized that those weren't players), so i think asking what your motivation inherently is a bit faulty as a question, because i don't think you did it purposefully

~ skitter

it seems like auro is implying I did it deliberately?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t really want to get into irl stuff but like - this morning was really NOT a good time for me, I don’t think I came across that snippy but can see how it came across like that given my mood, I’m fine with reactions like gc’s/shadow’s that are like “y so srs” but auro specifically called it posturing and won’t explain why he thinks so.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

The posts asking to cease "cutesy joking" seemed to imply that you knew it was not-serious, and that seemed a mild overreaction.
The lack of initial concern about my responding to the horrible rolefishing question -if serious- rather than whether it was a secret alt was a little interesting.

-Dumbass

oh maybe he did
idk that's not how i read it
i can't like defend what he was thinking so i don't really have an answer for you, but we both did feel like you overeacted for it, but i am ok with recognizing that there could be out-of-game factors prompting that
like it looks surface-level scummy to me but i'm not sure it actually is if that makes sense

~ skitter

really wish I could talk about [redacted]!!!!!!!!!!


auro just feels like he’s trying to play around me and evade and dodge. I legit don’t understand what he was trying to achieve with that comment, unless it’s to make me look bad. then when I asked him to elaborate, he answered my questions with vagueries and questions. still no response on why he made the comment about posturing in the first place.

not really much more to say here without auro, I think.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

thanks for the love guys. I’m trying to take a few days off soon but shit keeps popping up. back to work for me...

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@shadow we can’t discuss ongoing games.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t have like, extensive meta. have played one additional game with him as town though, and to me he was like, couched in reasonableness and logic.

- Daenerys

remember that time we were partners and he was town and totally caught both of us and it was really awkward until we murderized him?

fun times!

~ skitter

[Daenerys and Dragons]

i sent untrod tripod a pm r.e. redacted to see what's legal and not

already asked tbone about it, I’m under the impression we must redact.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Hope you feel better lilith

ty

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I feel like I gave adequate evidence that I had just horribly misread/not been paying attention and then you doubled down on my reaction being fake by picking at me “not showing the appropriate concerns initially.” yeah I’m upset. pretty sure yall just rolled scum. but ok.

probably gonna need a few mental days. don’t expect me back for a bit. sorry to notsci/mod team, won’t mention ongoing games again.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

so y'all pissed lilith off and so she's taking a break now

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Posture has been turned into a buzzword this game can we not use it anymore

I usually get scumread in almost every game I play (even out of this site) so it's no surprise that I get scumread in this game. I disagree with whoever said that the fact that newb scum gets more lost than newb town players though. I just don't know what to post. If I'm scum, I'd be posting more than that because I'll then be the informed minority with more information about this game.

Can you point to some evidence of this?"

I usually get scumread in almost every game I play (even out of this site) so it's no surprise that I get scumread in this game. I disagree with whoever said that the fact that newb scum gets more lost than newb town players though. I just don't know what to post. If I'm scum, I'd be posting more than that because I'll then be the informed minority with more information about this game.

how is that correlated

If you look at my previous games that I'm not being an idiot in then you'll know that I get scumread for basically the same reasons: not being so active, post content suspicious. I'm trying to be an active and helpful townie, but apparently I lack the ability to do so.

Scum can easily appear active and helpful, you need to look deeper then that.

Technically this happened after my vote but before my statement, this has 0 context behind it and is a very convenient vote, adding pressure to the existing 1v1

mindmeld with MC

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I'm still not finding many strong reads here.
I want to say Lilith and I were very excited to roll town this game and we don't want to deal with the bs we always get, and this arguing is getting lilith pissed off already
So if other D&D hydra could do something else unless something relevant has changed I'd appreciate it

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

{Salsabil Faria, Shadowslug, Infinity420, Gamma Emerald?}

Salsa & infinity are fine

Gamma is probably fine

Shadow is not fine

Oh yeah Lilith told me about this """townblock""" Auro made
It sucks the only one in there who seems townie enough to be in a townblock is Salsabil

Is not being helpful to the game a scum indicative then? I don't think I'm being helpful but I'm trying.

You're missing my point
You need to look at motivations for things
WHY is someone being helpful?
Are they normally helpful?

i'll be honest i have no idea what to do anymore since that whole ongoing games debacle just kinda took the wind outta the game a bit

also no idea who maf is lol

It's you my dude
Where's Koba with their finger pointing meme when you need it?

There’s nothing to say about the SRs on me. They’re wrong and I’m not even sure what they’re based on other than ppl not liking my shadow suspicions/sticking with those suspicions. I also don’t really care about the votes on me. But I also am not getting suspicious vibes from anyone in particular who is voting me bc of their vote, so I’m doubly uninterested in beating someone up for their bad gc vote to see if I can shake out a scum.

Ok this is kind of ass

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

hello. quick pop-in for me today. I walked away from the site for a day because I could feel my mental state affecting the game and didn’t want it to turn toxic/affect the game more than it already had. work has been really really awful, especially recently, but it’s not fair for me to take it out on the game. I totally recognize that and am going to take some more time away until I’m feeling in a better spot mentally to process this game and be productive.

that being said, gamma, saying “yall have so much drama” after I already walked away to prevent myself from affecting the thread further is low and unnecessary. and, again, I know on the outside it seems like “this interaction is so pointless,” but every single time I get into a fight like this, the other person is scum. It turns into this big of a fight because I’m stubborn and won’t let the issue go. One time I apologized and backed off, and the scum PR that I was fighting with lived until D5. I’m trying to trust my instincts about this more, and my instinct here was that auro couldn’t figure out how to pivot when it became clear why I was “overreacting.”

final point - auro now says he thinks we’re town but we’re not in his proposed townbloc. why is that? :thonk:

however, as mena once said, skitter is a bad D1 elim. I’m not really interested in pursuing their elimination today, but I’m very much

not

convinced that they’re town. when I get back I’ll try to be more involved in sorting other slots for today’s elim.

be back tomorrow.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Ok this is kind of ass

infinity, soon: ah yes why hasn't gc engaged with this insightful commentary?

who cares if it's insightful
saying "lol SRs on me are just wrong" is scummy af

@cakez

why do you scumread me again? i don't think you explained

I dislike certain posts and pushes you made early on

VOTE: MURDERKITTY

~ skitter

I am >rand willing to sheep this I don't really like any of his posting on page 29 it feels way more forced then I expect from town MC
But not sure lilith is interested

Gamma seems to just be chilling and doesn't seem to be trying to push anything in particular.

Also this is a scumtell for Gamma I think

PenguinPower is town af also
that's all i got for now

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I’m sorry but I can’t have fun in mafia games as town, Cakez? Is that what you’re saying?
I actually feel like I vibed pretty hard in a game murder and infinity were both in

That's obviously not what I was getting at and I'm not sure why you're taking it that way

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Planning on catching up later tonight.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

sorry I was not able to spend as much time as I wanted on this today.

@penguin are you currently townreading dumb&dumber? when/why did you start townreading skitter? is the read based on something other than how skitter is reading you?

@skitter similar question. when/why did you start townreading penguin? what changed from the early game that made you switch your read?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Do you mind looking in his ISO and pointing to where that started?

On an unrelated note, I didn’t really like gamma’s reaction to me vs auro, repeatedly saying it was pointless and then not bothering to try to redirect or offer any game-related content. I don’t have much, if any, experience playing with him but I feel like he doesn’t really feel interested in solving.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Re: murdercat pushing penguin, I think town!penguin is a deceivingly easy-looking push for scum to make. I’m not sold on town!penguin but I think it’s worth looking into who the top wagon was when murder tried to wagon penguin to see whether it could have been scum!murder trying to divert wagon away from a scumbuddy. Need to sleep so I’ll do that tomorrow after work hopefully.

@skitter what implications do you think the stalled gamestate has?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

oops I forgot to include the sassy parenthetical that I thought of while describing penguin.

Re: murdercat pushing penguin, I think town!penguin is a deceivingly easy-looking push for scum to make (ask me how I know).

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I also still have serious reservations about dumb&dumber but am trying to compile like actually coherent sentences about it before I blow up the thread again. But from where I’m standing, they haven’t done anything particularly town-indicative. Can I get people’s thoughts on them please?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I want to know all the hydras individual names and pronoun

Daenerys - lilith2013 (she/her)
Dragons - SirCakez (he/him)

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@penguin are you currently townreading dumb&dumber? when/why did you start townreading skitter? is the read based on something other than how skitter is reading you?

Yes, but with an appropriate dose of skepticism because it's skitteR. I can't point to where it started exactly, but I started to feel good about it around murderkitty wagon time.

what’s the basis for townread?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

ehh okay VOTE: gamma

[Daenerys and Dragons]

MURDERCAT himself was the leading wagon.

oh lol. definitely some motivation there to try to create a different wagon then

They seem decent enough to me, leaning toward town.

can you explain why?

Penguin. It feels like the active lurking and filler posting is basically a playstyle thing for him and he hasn't really scumtold or towntold, he's just there. He could be scum but I don't think the stuff murdercat is pointing at says a lot either way and I have my own issues with murder's posting.

what issues do you have with murder?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

the same thing as any d1 reasoning - gut/tone

meh

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I was hoping for something more helpful, since “gut/tone” doesn’t really help me read either of you.

Thoughts on auro’s posts?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I am obvtown

-Dumbass

you’re gonna have to explain that one to me.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Do you disagree with a gamma wagon?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

who’s in your poe?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

reading up

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I’m sorry but I can’t have fun in mafia games as town, Cakez? Is that what you’re saying?
I actually feel like I vibed pretty hard in a game murder and infinity were both in

That's obviously not what I was getting at and I'm not sure why you're taking it that way

-Dragons

I felt like it was the start of a bad-faith push

That wasn't my goal there. All I was saying is you looked more like your scum meta than town. And I know your scum meta pretty well with Booney just ending.

VOTE: shadowslug

By far my strongest SR after catching up.
Need to talk to lilith more.

-Dragons

Can you talk about what happened up to this point cake that made you vote here?

Yeah let me go back and dig up the posts I didn't like

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t really think skitter came off as defensive, maybe like.. confused that infinity assumed a reason for her read that wasn’t true and wasn’t stated. Can we instead talk about why shadowslug seems to think her response is “annoyed in a defensive way”?

- Daenerys

Well now this just seems like you're inviting other people to question me rather than doing the dirty work yourself

I really didn't like this post. It's like...shade casting and defensive and accusatory all at once. It doesn't feel like town tone at all.

So is your problem that I'm too certain in my read or that I'm conflicted?

You're going to have to settle on which one you want to say makes me scum so you can finally finish this tiresome windup.

My problem is you jump from confident to conflicted in a way that doesn't look real

You're conflicted one moment then shooting people down who say i'm town the next

You're "seems too easy" post seems fake in light of the posts coming

directly after it

that imply you think i'm just scum

I didn't like Shadow's GC push in general. This reasoning is very murky at best and seems somewhat forced.

You literally quoted a post where I am questioning my read.

Questioning your read why? Because it seems so easy? that's bullcrap reasoning

Like this for example.

Hmm ok

Do you think my grievances about GC are legitimate or am I being stupid?

And I didn't like this either. Approval seeking always grosses me out.

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Well I'll see if Catboi changes my read on that slot.

See, that's the problem. I can't really figure out people's alignments. I'm thinking that Infinity and Da&Dr could be town.

Do you have any reasoning for that?

I'm not really getting anywhere this game myself and those two just had a town “vibe” to me. Hard to explain exactly what is was though. I don't think Infinity is that town-lean after seeing recent posts. Now that I have more time on this game (NM and shadow knows why), I think I might come to some actual reads later.

I continue to not be a fan of Yyotta's posting. It seems less like lost townie and more like scum trying to act like lost townie.

Murdercat probably isn't the bomb though

Catboiii!

-Dumbass

Who cares? Most likely we are not gonna get the bomb here so let's just yeet scum.

Sorry everyone I have to cut this short, but I hope to be back later tonight

Sorry everyone, I was officially burnt out. But I am fully back now. Sorry for contributing the game dying a bit.
If you think I'm scum because I'm playing lazy then so be it. But I am back now, and I hope I've earned the benefit of the doubt because I am a strong town player when I get going.

Okay, but not great

why?

Looking forward to hearing about your scumreads!

Ok I can give more thoughts if you wish

This posting from Murder is so floppy. There's no town energy there.
mmm ok that Penguin case is not bad though.

Will catch up later, but I can finally say this.
I was in this game where town got banned for game throwing: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85633

It was heated and took literally all of my energy. I though it would end before this game started, but it turns out scum didn't know I was their traitor and they kept trying to elim me.
I am looking forward to mentally committing to this game.

Ok having been in this game I can see this.

My heart is no more in a MURDERKITTY lim :/

-Dumbass

Why?

I'm not sure I can articulate this well, but I feel like he could've (/would've) maintained higher consistency in terms of activity and pushes despite the other game as scum, as opposed to having to form genuine reads (especially when under pressure).

I do want to wagon Not_Mafia for the lulz at the moment.

-Dumbass

gross

-dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I wrote that up without seeing dragons's comments on murder ftr. I didn't really highlight it there but in general his ISO feels like it has, well, a lot of the filler he accuses PP of, and he doesn't really seem to be pursuing his scumreads with any kind of vigor which I think is part of why he feels "flat", as others have said

Yeah I think I agree with this and your prior post generally. I think we should give him some benefit of the doubt on why he hasn’t been very engaged so far, but he’s in my yeetpool and if we don’t see much from him even though his other game is over, then I’m okay with that elim (barring any juicier suspicions).

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Will catch up later, but I can finally say this.
I was in this game where town got banned for game throwing: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85633

It was heated and took literally all of my energy. I though it would end before this game started, but it turns out scum didn't know I was their traitor and they kept trying to elim me.
I am looking forward to mentally committing to this game.

@catboi: do you not think the other game could have caused that lack of vigor?

-Dumbass

If you’re asking this, why are you okay voting murder?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

-Dragons

yoooo if you want to catboi wagon it up, i'm game

sorry I think catboi is town, catboi wagon is a no go at this time

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Presumably you were doing that to sort catboi - how has his answer impacted your read of him? How did you expect his answer to help you sort him?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

When you asked that question, how did you think it was going to help you sort him?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Why do I feel like I’m pulling teeth and like your answers to me are always these vague generalities that don’t actually mean anything?

catboi literally mentioned the post you were asking about. They said they believed it to be a post that scum would make to stall. I don’t understand what information you were hoping to get that would have helped you sort him. Instead it feels like you’re asking the question to look like you’re doing something, without engaging anything else that they’ve said about murder.

Why are you willing to vote murder when just last night you said you no longer wanted his elim?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

fine. I will no longer address you.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I was hoping for something more helpful, since “gut/tone” doesn’t really help me read either of you.

Thoughts on auro’s posts?

- Daenerys

i mean tbf on my end this is a bit reductive, because that's not the reasoning i gave
(as i wrote this out i realized that you may have only been talking about penguin's read on me, and not also mine on him, so nm)

are you still like mad at auro from last week?

~

also: salsa is like super transparently beyond townie

~ skitter

I’m only talking about penguin’s read on you, I haven’t looked into your read on him yet.

I’m not mad at auro and I don’t think I ever was? It’s been very frustrating trying to interact with him and I think he’s being scummy but it’s not like I’m personally mad at him. I don’t think he’s done anything like, offensive or that I’m personally affronted by. I realized I was letting my mental state affect everything I was saying last week though so sorry if it came across that way (in retrospect I’m also realizing now that cakes said I was pissed off but that wasn’t a very accurate description. I was just having a rough time for totally unrelated reasons and knew I was letting it affect my play and I didn’t want the game devolving into shitfights so I left).

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Like at this point the reason for me trying to engage with auro is purely from a perspective of trying to sort him and it’s really frustrating to get back a response of “don’t talk to me” but I guess it is what it is. I have no insight into why he’s said anything he’s said and I can’t seem to get an explanation for it at this point. I’m pretty much equally paranoid of you guys being scum and leading a D1 elimination on two of the strongest town players I know. It also feels like no one else is really attempting to sort you guys and on the third hand I’m terrified that cakes and I are going to be killed N1 and scum!you will coast to endgame with no one bothering to look back at me shouting not to trust you so easily. It would be a lot easier if I could be satisfied that you guys are town.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Sorry :/

-Dumbass

What even is this? Who are you apologizing to?

I continue to not be a fan of Yyotta's posting. It seems less like lost townie and more like scum trying to act like lost townie.

i'm not a fan of her posting either, but that potential strat seems a bit more advanced than yyotta could pull off, given prior games of similar play?

if yyotta = scum, i'm guessing this is just how she plays more so than an actual advanced strategy. but i still think it's bait material.

Can you elaborate?

-Dragons

yoooo if you want to catboi wagon it up, i'm game

I'm a little iffy there now. Lilith also thinks it is a town slot.

Back in 2016-2017 there used to be people who claimed they could read NM, has that art been lost to time?

It is possible but you don't read him using his posts, you read him using other people's posts. Generally the more he is talked about the more likely he is to be town. If everyone is ignoring him that usually means he's scum.

@Cakez

what is your opinion of Murdercat rn?

Very conflicted. I think his posting isolated is very scummy but I also can buy his excuse that he was burned out by the BooneyToonz game and I did like his post where he cased Penguin. Would yeet in lack of other better wagons.

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I am really lacking scumreads this game and it's making it hard. I have a lot of nulltownish people.

-Dragons

[Daenerys and Dragons]

^

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

galaxy brain theory - murdercat is bomb and gamma is goon trying to divert the wagon away? that would fit with gamma seeming “jester-y”, whoever said that.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

my galaxy brain theory could also point to goon!infinity

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

if murder were town, I feel like scum should be a lot more enthusiastic about pushing him than defending him? there’s not a lot of towncred to be had here

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

But like I said, I think I’d like to give murder the benefit of the doubt (although my desire for leniency is rapidly waning) so I’m perfectly happy to wagon gamma, who is actively being weird.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Spoiler: @D&D

@Daenerys:
Okay. I was under the impression that you were upset, and whatever I was saying was making you more upset. I wasn't enjoying our conversation even though I usually love that kind of engagement. I didn't feel like getting into that kind of fight, and hence wished to disengage. Hope RL got better!

Note that I'm following a

much

looser "Zen" playstyle compared to last year , opting to trust my gut and intuition over aggressive active hunting. I'll address some points that you put forth earlier:

• Question to Catboi
  : He formed a read that I thought should logically be weakened to some part by the information I presented. I didn't notice he mentioned it in his case. In retrospect, even if I did, my question would still stand due to my belief that that factor could have
  higher
  importance than what was given to it in his post.
  
  There are many ways people can react to information presented this way - they can ignore it, re-evaluate based on it, double down and argue against it, etc. and while not
  every
  response is AI, they sometimes are! Catboi admitted that that point might be true, and explained that it still wouldn't be enough to shift his overall position on the slot. That's a fine reaction to me. If he had instead argued the premise that MURDERKITTY probably had differing energy levels and that it was surely a stall technique (or something along these lines) I probably would have thought it's a little scummy initially, and might have continued that line of engagement. The question also has reason beyond sorting
  his
  slot - it also serves to align my own thoughts, in case I had a wrong read on things.
  
  I wasn't
  consciously
  thinking through all of that at the time I asked the question. I don't believe that it's necessary to evaluate every question I want to ask in terms of response information: if something piques my interest, then I'd just go ahead! I'm experienced enough to the point where I can intuitively ask questions I feel are useful, and like recursive hyperfocus into
  why
  I'm asking what I asked would just result in more theory responses (the above is a detailed version of my previous one-liner response).
  
  
• Why murder MURDER when I didn't have my heart in it
  : First I'll address an earlier post of yours asking why I'd be okay voting MURDER when I poked at Catboi's read - I view the two as independent things. Even if I scumread MURDER for a variety of reasons, yet found that that singular contradictory reason is worth considering, it's still a question I could ask that serves the dual purpose of finding out how it would factor into his thought process, and whether I should change my own (a better way of putting it would be to try to
  align
  with the slot).
  
  I hold the same ultimate conclusion - I think MURDERKITTY indeed had differing energy levels, and maybe he would have put up a more consistent showing as scum, but his content is still lackluster, the PoE I'm forming seems okay, skitteR thinks it's a fine vote, Ponglin (who we TR) thinks it's a fine vote, and nothing else is generating anything of interest.
  
• Daenerys' slot TR but not in townblock?
  : I'm a little surprised this got lesser attention than I thought it would, especially when I failed to address it earlier and kept asking for thoughts on my townbloc. To explain - I TR the entitlement the slot has to be townread (as someone else has also expressed), however I think my personal read on that basis isn't particularly reliable - given I also didn't really enjoy engaging with (or about) the slot I figured I'd just let skitteR handle it. Note that this does not reflect an
  inability
  to sort that slot on my part, I just need more content for that, probably. If my slot is NK'd early, count my personal read as a null.

-Dumbass

ty. as I said, I apologize if it seemed like I was upset with you specifically, and I hope it’s clear that I’m not upset with you and that I’m in a better mental state now for this game.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t think murdercat’s play is substantially different from that game/any of his other town games, and the fact he’s getting early pressure to this degree tells me he’s town
In booneytoonz XV I recall there was a D1 wagon on him but it was rather short-lived
Meanwhile like, every other town game I’ve seen from him he’s been rather suspected. So imo the trend is “if murdercat gets sussed a lot early he is town”

I feel like you don’t actually care about solving. It’s a motif throughout your ISO, like when you were observing me vs auro and your only comment was “well this seems pointless,” but you didn’t try to do anything about it, like you were perfectly happy for the game to be in a state of being pointless.

your best suspect is NM? there are 3 scum and I don’t really see you trying to look for more. If you think murder is town, then are people being actively opportunistic about wagoning him? What do you think about penguin convincing dumb&dumber to vote back on murder after auro voted NM for lolz?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

hey penguin wanna join the juicy gamma wagon?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

No one is bothering to honestly engage with me here so I’ll just let my flip speak for itself

what a misrep. I asked you questions about the murder wagon.

If you think murder is town, then are people being actively opportunistic about wagoning him? What do you think about penguin convincing dumb&dumber to vote back on murder after auro voted NM for lolz?

and your response is to pretend that I’m not engaging with you?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

hey penguin wanna join the juicy gamma wagon?

- Daenerys

You know what, do it. I fucking DARE you.

this is an overblown reaction to me trying to pressure you because I’m not satisfied with your content

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

No one is bothering to honestly engage with me here so I’ll just let my flip speak for itself

what a misrep. I asked you questions about the murder wagon.

If you think murder is town, then are people being actively opportunistic about wagoning him? What do you think about penguin convincing dumb&dumber to vote back on murder after auro voted NM for lolz?

and your response is to pretend that I’m not engaging with you?

- Daenerys

I kinda felt like I addressed that in another post
I don’t particularly feel like many scum are on murdercat, otherwise I wouldn’t be debating like this, I’d just lim the scum. But I feel like outside of Cakez and infinity, NM is the only one here who should have a decent idea of how murdercat is, but he just lazily voted murder

Are you under the impression that NM does anything not lazily?
Why do you think he should “know how murdercat is” and that this is town!murder?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

also if you already addressed a question that I asked, just link me to it instead of shouting that I’m not engaging you honestly. I don’t understand how that’s the first reaction you have.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

okay and I repeat: your best suspect is NM?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

seriously the vitriol here is incredibly offputting, I feel like I have been engaging with you in good faith and what I got back was completely uncalled for.

I feel like a broken record now. It really feels like the only thing you care about is murder not being eliminated. I’m fine with giving him another day, but then it feels like you don’t care about solving anyone else in the game. Voting NM is even lazier than voting murder, who has actively provided scummy content. NM is just being NM as far as I can tell, and you haven’t even attempted to solve the person you thought should be scum based on this weirdass point about him seeing a wagon on town!murder once. It isn’t clear to me why NM is no longer suspicious to you and it also wasn’t clear to me that he was no longer suspicious to you. 1059 is very convoluted and I don’t know why it matters what murdercat was talking about and why that impacts your vote on NM.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

also if you already addressed a question that I asked, just link me to it instead of shouting that I’m not engaging you honestly. I don’t understand how that’s the first reaction you have.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@infinity
catboi’s post sums up most of it I think, have you read and responded to this?

Actually just looked at your ISO and you don’t seem to have mentioned this post at all, which is interesting because this is probably the biggest scumcase on murder so far, and you seemingly hard townread this slot before catboi replaced in. Is there a reason you haven’t responded to catboi on murder or engaged with catboi at all?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Here's the thing: I legitimately don't actively solve early unless driven by emotions or something. I do this for three reasons: I'm lazy, it helps get through the most active stages of larger games where trying to keep up is nigh impossible, and it lowers my NK worth. That last point wasn't always a reason for it but after mini 2173 I realized I actually had enough impact to get NKed over reputation versus my play in that game, so now I deliberately sandbag to try to get farther, which I'm sure you've seen other players do. Flavor Leaf and mastina might be the leading names in that regard for me, though idrk if the latter qualifies. But the point is the fact I haven't been actively searching for scum is part of how I play these days, but atp I'm pissed off enough to switch to active mode.

if you don’t actively solve or are deliberately “sandbagging,” then don’t be surprised when people are suspicious.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

and honestly, to talk about why I'm so vitriolic for a bit
I'm legitimately just

in a bad mood

. I was like this a bit yesterday, and I had events today that just made things worse. I feel like my feelings and circumstances are being trampled so I'm lashing out in a space rn where the consequences feel lesser.

okay then take a break from the thread.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

and yet you’re suspicious here

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@infinity
catboi’s post sums up most of it I think, have you read and responded to this?

Actually just looked at your ISO and you don’t seem to have mentioned this post at all, which is interesting because this is probably the biggest scumcase on murder so far, and you seemingly hard townread this slot before catboi replaced in. Is there a reason you haven’t responded to catboi on murder or engaged with catboi at all?

- Daenerys

I read the post, it didn't really do anything for me. Most of it is like, murder is making lazy pushes and reasoning because he's kinda being lazy this game. If you're interested I can respond to it in more depth

I don’t really need a response to the points in particular.

I find the argument “murder could be lazy as town” to just be not very appealing. Like, anyone can be lazy as town. They can also just be scum. Yall are saying murder is lazy!town here. Gamma says he’s lazy!town. NM is lazy as both alignments. Everyone else is putting in effort. who do we elim then if everyone suspicious just says they’re being lazy town? there needs to be a line drawn somewhere. as a side note, I also intensely dislike the concept of sandbagging on principle. like, just play the game you signed up for. if you plan to not play the game, then don’t come crying when you get pressured for it.

you say let’s wagon NM but that is the easiest elimination of all time. I’m not concerned about deepwolf!NM. I am concerned about other players skating by because “oh they’re just lazy town.” like if NM is where the wagon ends up, fine, but I think that’s an absolute last resort. there are three scum, so I’m going to keep trying to figure out who the team is. both you and gamma do not seem to care that there would be two other scum.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

literally not what I’m saying at all. it’s a bit hypocritical to call me a dense fucker.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@infinity
catboi’s post sums up most of it I think, have you read and responded to this?

Actually just looked at your ISO and you don’t seem to have mentioned this post at all, which is interesting because this is probably the biggest scumcase on murder so far, and you seemingly hard townread this slot before catboi replaced in. Is there a reason you haven’t responded to catboi on murder or engaged with catboi at all?

- Daenerys

I read the post, it didn't really do anything for me. Most of it is like, murder is making lazy pushes and reasoning because he's kinda being lazy this game. If you're interested I can respond to it in more depth

I don’t really need a response to the points in particular.

I find the argument “murder could be lazy as town” to just be not very appealing. Like, anyone can be lazy as town. They can also just be scum. Yall are saying murder is lazy!town here. Gamma says he’s lazy!town. NM is lazy as both alignments. Everyone else is putting in effort. who do we elim then if everyone suspicious just says they’re being lazy town? there needs to be a line drawn somewhere. as a side note, I also intensely dislike the concept of sandbagging on principle. like, just play the game you signed up for. if you plan to not play the game, then don’t come crying when you get pressured for it.

you say let’s wagon NM but that is the easiest elimination of all time. I’m not concerned about deepwolf!NM. I am concerned about other players skating by because “oh they’re just lazy town.” like if NM is where the wagon ends up, fine, but I think that’s an absolute last resort. there are three scum, so I’m going to keep trying to figure out who the team is. both you and gamma do not seem to care that there would be two other scum.

- Daenerys

yes, there are three scum
atm I don't think murdercat is any of them
NM could be, so could others but I haven't probed for them yet
I don't like the way you try to act like because there's three scum it invalidates our concerns about the murdercat lim and those pushing it

if you need assistance on understanding my point:

- I don’t think it’s a problem that you and infinity think that murder is town. I’ve repeatedly said I’m fine giving him time. I’m not on the wagon. I could not care less about murder being wagoned today.
- both your and infinity’s reaction to the murder wagon was to try to wagon NM, who is the easiest elimination of all time (ie the least effort required to call him scum because he pretty much never efforts).
- neither of you seem to care that there should be a scum team of 3 and have basically put 0 effort into trying to sort anyone else beyond calling NM scum. this is incredibly lazy. and it’s not very town-indicative.

I have never argued that murder should be eliminated. I am currently engaging infinity on his reasoning for town!murder. Once again, your post is a straight misrep of what I’m saying. I’m in no way “acting like there being 3 scum invalidates concerns about wagon on town!murder.” What I’m

saying

is that there being 3 scum but landing on only NM is reasoning for scum!you and scum!infinity. murder’s alignment is irrelevant.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

boop

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@lilith The argument isn't "murder could be lazy town"

It's "laziness isn't scum-indicative, especially for murder"

I just don't think any of the points against murder actually make him more likely to be scum, and he's felt towny to me so far

Fair point about not searching for other scum, I've been pretty demotivated and should probably be re-evaluating my TRs. But also, when I have reasons to TR a lot of the playerlist, yeah maybe players like NM and yyota, who I don't have reasons to TR, are more likely scum

Okay, fine. I don’t find NM a satisfactory secondary wagon though because... doesn’t the same reasoning apply?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Yeah I do wish he would post more since he said he would be, but is leaving the thread and "hoping the wagon dissipates" something scum actually do ever? Idk

*raises hand*

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

that’s literally my reaction as scum to most pressure.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@gamma I think it’s also unrealistic to believe that you’ll be able to persuade everyone to leave murder alone for a scenario that only you have knowledge of when you 1) have put no visible effort into solving and progressing the game, and 2) have admitted to doing that on purpose. you likely don’t have enough credibility or trust to defend murder successfully. If you want people to follow your lead, then they need to trust you first.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

that’s literally my reaction as scum to most pressure.

- Daenerys

lilith

shush

[Daenerys and Dragons]

.... aren’t you?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

yes
but there's something more I'm feeling beyond that

?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

can you.... explain whatever it is

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

i would like to say i explicilty do not townread the other hydra and i feel like lilith ignored my overture trying to sort her slot

i really, really dislike gamma's approach to the MURDERCAT wagon, and am somewhat inclined to switch my vote there, but i won't cuz auro does not quite agree. although actually the more i read i'm not sure that he's scum; he feels kinda like misunderstood and pissed off town. also i hope you have a better day tom <3

i still feel like MURDERCAT is being grossly lurkish and underwhelming

~ skitter

wtf?

this is literally out of left field for me.

I'm sorry you feel like I ignored you, that's not my intention. I literally don't know how to read you, and idk, "is there anything you want to talk about" doesn't really feel like a reach-out to me in the way that you're saying it was. you should be townreading me here, period, and I feel like it's a bit weird that you act as if you still need to sort me and that was the purpose of you asking me that, because what it felt like it should have been in the moment was trying to help me to read you, not the other way around. I feel much less unconfident in my ability to read auro than in my ability to read you, but my scumread on him was likely based off emotion initially. I've basically backed off that read completely after he said he thought I was upset with him and that our back and forth seemed to have been a misunderstanding. now you are rapidly veering back into my scumreads.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

okay, hope you feel better.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Can you link me a game where scum!lilith showed this level of proactiveness or emotion

obligatory links to the best scumgames that I've had on site
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=82824
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=82849

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don't really know why skitter is saying I feel different or what is different about me, but it is extremely worrisome that she is now downgrading her prior townread on me. like it kind of feels like it's supposed to be penalizing me for not falling in line and townreading her slot like everyone else seems to be, so that I'll just give in and call her and auro town. and I felt like her original townread on me was meant to be placating to get me to back off auro more than it was an actual read. also initially I felt like auro was deliberately not engaging with me in order to prevent me from getting a good handle on his play, then he seemed to have a satisfactory explanation for thinking that I was still upset, but now I'm feeling like maybe it was deliberate after all.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

like idk I'm clearly in here solving and progressing the game and moving things forward, and if you think that's possibly scum!me.... idk what to tell you.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Gamma seems a little suspicious.

Infinity, GC, KITTY, Salsabil, PP are my TR.
Everyone else seems null.

can you explain these reads please

- Daenerys

dammit

[Daenerys and Dragons]

now I'm feeling like maybe it was deliberate after all.

Lol I'd never be *scared* of engaging with anyone as scum, for the record

-Dumbass

not the point I was making

Cakez, you seem pretty uninvested this game. I'd be glad if you can change that.

-Dumbass

why? I should be so incredibly easy to read here. what does cakes being more or less present in this thread have to do with anything? do you think cakes is more readable than I am? do you think you can convince him more easily that you're town?

The Gamma distraction feels pretty boring to me, and I can totally imagine Gamma as stubborn/frustrated town justifying his actions. The emotional reaction does seem a little disproportionate, marking that for later study.

MURDERKITTY is still the correct lim.

-Dumbass

what penguin said.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

dropping hot case tomorrow, pending mental capacity.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

idk how I'm supposed to believe that these posts come from town. "where is cakez?" come on.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

idk how I'm supposed to believe that these posts come from town. "where is cakez?" come on.

- Daenerys

It’s a fair question. I don’t remember cakez’ last post.

why? I should be so incredibly easy to read here. what does cakes being more or less present in this thread have to do with anything? do you think cakes is more readable than I am? do you think you can convince him more easily that you're town?

Weakly agree on the first - I do TR you (contingent on my slot not being NK'd, by the way, because in the off chance that you ARE scum playing a great game, I don't want to let your slot coast on my TR. Visit the dead thread for City That Never Sleeps and you'll understand). That game I lost to scum!you btw - I don't believe you're as "incredibly easy to read" as you say you are?

I think I'd work well with Cakez. His lack of investment is a mild concern and I'd rather no concerns at all, but the stronger point is that I think an invested Cakez would be better for the game, independent of your own play.

-Dumbass

he posted earlier today. I happen to be more riled up about my reads, and he's busy with rl stuff. regardless, "where is cakez" is kind of a useless question. do you have specific things you want to talk about with him? otherwise it just sounds like you're complaining that I'm too present in this hydra and you'd rather have the head you think you can convince to townread you.

I went and read the city dead thread. I'm not sure what takeaway I'm supposed to have from this? that was the first game we played together, and you've seen me in scumgames since then and even spectated them; you have yourself previously pointed out one of the major flaws in my scumgame which is (I think) glaringly obvious, and I don't think I've ever managed to fix it. I think based on that I should be quite easy to read. also skitter is, until this game, pretty much 100% on reading me. I would maybe understand if she had expressed similar paranoia, but she said she's explicitly not townreading me. nope.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

MURDERKITTY is still the correct lim.

I thought you weren’t feeling it skitteR

@auro you didn't respond to this btw.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I just find it very difficult to believe that you read all these pages and one of your three takeaways is "cakes should be more invested." you also just said that you thought gamma was a distraction, so what changed?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

what do you think about catboi saying it's too obvious and that Gamma/Infinity are actually TMIing town!murder?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

The Gamma distraction feels pretty boring to me, and I can totally imagine Gamma as stubborn/frustrated town justifying his actions. The emotional reaction does seem a little disproportionate, marking that for later study.

MURDERKITTY is still the correct lim.

-Dumbass

this doesn't really sound like you think he's scum with murder imo.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

that's actually an interesting thought, and I could see scum!catboi trying to divert a wagon off buddy!murder onto gamma. but then I think I'd expect gamma to be wagoned harder, not for that wagon and the NM wagon to continue to stall.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@skitter
this is the post that I think I ignored - again, I apologize if you think this was intentional, I responded to auro's explanation to me and I didn't/don't really think I can sort you properly and didn't realize you wanted a response separately.

sorry lilith - mad may not have been the right word, maybe i should have said like 'annoyed' or something
i dont' think you're personally mad with him either, to clarify

he's trying to take some distance to ensure that the game doesn't end up in a 1v1, which we both feel might have happened if he wasnt' actively trying to de-escalate

do you want to try to talk to me to sort our slot instead?

~

infinity, her post on murdercat and how she went analyzing him i think just abt never comes from (new) scum i think

~ skitteR

ignoring aside, this feels like you were reaching out to help me sort you. all fine and dandy.

i would like to say i explicilty do not townread the other hydra and i feel like lilith ignored my overture trying to sort her slot

this makes it sound like you made the original post to try to sort me (and that this is the reason for not townreading me), when I thought it was the other way around. kind of a weird reason to not townread me when I could have easily just missed the post? and I feel like I've actively been trying to sort auro which is consistent with what I've previously said about not being able to read you.

Can you link me a game where scum!lilith showed this level of proactiveness or emotion

i can't, no (i.e. i don't ahve an example)
but she's not quite feeling like town-lilith to me yet either and i'm currently trying to figure out what i make of that

~ skitter

and this feels like now you're trying to say it's gut and not the ignoring

I still think there's a possibility you're town, so can we discuss this? I'd like you to explain the entirety of the reasons that you're no longer townreading me, how your initial townread of me has factored into that, what you think feels different about me, etc. If we're both town then us townreading each other would only be a positive thing for the game. I apologize if I hurt your feelings by not responding to you.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

that's actually an interesting thought, and I could see scum!catboi trying to divert a wagon off buddy!murder onto gamma. but then I think I'd expect gamma to be wagoned harder, not for that wagon and the NM wagon to continue to stall.

If subtlety is what he's aiming for in that hypothetical, waiting for town to pick up on it before making a more aggressive diversion attempt does make sense. However, I independently townread Catboi and this possibility just slightly furthers my belief in MC being a correct lim.

I'll respond to your post to Skitter based on my understanding of her thoughts, as she's not here (sorry Skitter that I'm answering for you):

The overall sentiment was that you were focusing disproportionately on me with a possible motive of finding easier attack vectors off my posts, and that your engagement with me felt as though you were searching for a logical "gotcha" to push us. Also, inability to sort Skitter!head doesn't mean you can't engage with her anyway, right? The continued focus on engaging me while brushing off Skitter as "can't sort" seemed to fit into the same kind of scummy thought process you suspected me of having when I disengaged with you (even if the posted reasons were different) if that makes it clearer.

When she said she didn't see town!Lilith yet, as I understand it's her evaluation of the rest of your content independent of that factor above. A partial timeline of her read was [initial surface level scum pings on your reaction to my earlier posts] -> [okay on further read, looks town?] -> [why is Cakez acting like we're unreasonable too?] -> [let's wait for lilith to come back] -> [why is lilith ignoring my post?] -> [she seems to be playing around me rather than with me? could be very wrong though], if that helps.

-Dumbass

I feel like this is not a very fair description of my play. I backed off of you almost completely, and at this point I’m just interacting with whoever’s in thread when I’m here??? I even asked skitter a couple questions the other day, but I don’t think it’s really my fault if those engagements aren’t more drawn out? Like, if I just don’t have a lot of things in my mind to ask her then I just don’t? I also don’t think I should be asking her about things you’ve done that I want to question; and she hasn’t said much that I want to question. My interactions with you are also colored, I think understandably, by 1) prior games that I’m comparing to, and 2) having weird vibes almost immediately. I feel like this whole skitter thing is trying to make it seem like I ignored her and then attacked you, but I didn’t even talk about or to you for like 10 hours of being in the thread - I was interacting with infinity and gamma, and your slot was nowhere near top of mind for me. I made myself drop it because I admitted that my interactions with you were based on a misunderstanding, and then moved on to other things.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I'm continuously getting this feeling that

Daenerys and Dragons

vs

Dumb and Dumber

is not TvT

yeah why is that?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

tfw you’re so distracted by the game you miss all the pagetops

[Daenerys and Dragons]

yyotta have you seen my question?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

your reads are garbage.

1) does anyone ACTUALLY believe that I, as scum, would willingly pick a 1v1 against town!skitter? I've been pushing her slot since the beginning. that would mean you have two of the strongest town players in this game, who are also familiar with both my towngame and my scumgame, and I'm staring them in the face and drawing their attention like this. in what universe is that how I aim to play around skitter? that makes no fucking sense.

2) look at my ISO. I'm constantly engaging with people, evaluating my reads, picking things apart, and pushing. even though I'm no longer focusing on auro, it's clear I'm still trying to sort him. I'm trying to sort everyone. I'm clearly invested in this game and trying to solve. look at my posts and say to my face that this is a scummy ISO.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@lilith Infinity just seems townish during the game, GC got some fairly solid (at least how I view it) reasoning behind things although I'm not sure about his KITTY vote. I honestly don't think KITTY is that suspicious. I think he also got some town vibes. Salsabil seems to be going real deep in scumhunting this game. Something that seems town to me. PP just seems to be a passive townie.

can you point to posts that gave you town vibes for infinity and murder?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

also I'm going to point out that setting up binaries like this is really fucking scummy. "oh I think one of X and Y is scum. let's flip X" [X flips town] "oh I guess it was actually Y, let's flip Y instead"

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

The Gamma distraction feels pretty boring to me, and I can totally imagine Gamma as stubborn/frustrated town justifying his actions. The emotional reaction does seem a little disproportionate, marking that for later study.

MURDERKITTY is still the correct lim.

-Dumbass

this doesn't really sound like you think he's scum with murder imo.

- Daenerys

I'm pretty sure dumbo's been clear about thinking murdercat is the bomb? I could be miscrediting a post to them tho

they specifically said they

don't

think murder is the bomb

Murdercat probably isn't the bomb though

Catboiii!

-Dumbass

this is also just completely irrelevant to my point, which was that 1146 makes it sound like auro thinks you're town, which doesn't jive with his later post saying he thinks you have partner equity with murder. once again, you've made it about murder's alignment when my point has nothing to do with murder's alignment. how would auro thinking murder is the bomb change my point?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@gamma please also explain what you mean by a "binary with me and PP." also please explain why you had to ask murder about a game and what info that gave you that led to you deciding in this binary.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

What do you mean “cakes was negligent in highlighting the recency of the game”? Is this the traitor game?

- Daenerys