Newbie 2054 - GAME OVER

[2ndchosen1]

ahhhhhhh missed first day, apologies. was busy yesterday.
My work tends to come in bursts and be either really busy or nothing at all. joys of IT contracting in Retail/Finance.
Haven't read through the thread yet though

I am indeed familiar with Kazyan in IRL, and was guided here by Hayker.

[2ndchosen1]

I would call the emoticon debate certainly unhelpful, one thing that came up repeatedly in our last game was the discussing playstyle isn't really the most helpful thing for sorting scum.
The IIOA is certainly something but I would say NAI right now as it wasn't really distracting.
@Kazyan were the NPOM vibes from 29?

[2ndchosen1]

iioa - information instead of analysys
NPOM - NoPowerOverMe, A player from our last game

[2ndchosen1]

pretty much
I'm town lean on Italiano, Kazyan, and Cantrip
IVD has good takes, posts like 67 especially sing town
Kazyan's 109 seems to be a decent analysis of a D1 posting pattern on Krazy.
Cantrip's interaction with Kazyan looks towny to me.

Nulls for the rest right now

[2ndchosen1]

In general, I find it ok.
I don't know what 50ppp is but there are good questions in it. I'd like to see more from him after that post.

what makes it such a "pretty solid anti-associative" to you?

[2ndchosen1]

I sorted people in my head into "active" and inactive", and was going to vote you, but then I remember "hey, wait, Cantrip had a few posts, right?", and I checked both you and eth0s to confirm I had that right. But then I forgot to change my text in the vote after I double-checked eth0s, because I was thinking along the lines of "wait, no, it's the other guy".

The obvious solution should have been to vote 2ndchosen1 instead of confusing myself, now that I think about it.

I'm willing to take this as adequate explanation for now. I might look back on it later.

otherwise, I don't think there'd be a reason to bring attention to that right now. If it's purposely laying a definitely not together story this early then they are far more coordinated than any mafia I've seen so far.

[2ndchosen1]

I feel like whatever it is, defending himself or someone else, pairing people together in a group of three is a bit scummy. Scum like groups of three because it makes it unclear whether they're pairing themselves with two townies or a scumbuddy.

It just so happened that three of us did it. If four of us or five of us did, I would’ve paired it as such. I think you’re looking too deep into it.

He also kinda went to defend the use of emotes without really evaluating how different players were using emotes to different ends which is a little concerning.

Not a super scummy post, but a little scummy

I don’t like when people do this. Please don’t narrate and/or assume what I’m thinking (bolder) or how I’m trying to sort a player’s slot. Feels like a poor attempt to shade me. If you’d like to know what I mean or why I said something, just ask me.

the underlined vibes.

defend the use of emotes without really evaluating how different players were using emotes to different ends

This was either unhelpful discussion or a malicious attack angle on IVD.
Playstyle discussion doesn't find scum, focusing on messages and intent does.
why did you think the emotes are that important Krazy, that they required evaluation?

[2ndchosen1]

Meuh, I believe that you're being scumread as your listings are just that. there's no real substance to them beyond "THIS IS MY CURRENT POSITION". it's a weak iioa that doesn't advance any position or generally help. If anything it appears like an attempt to look like you're trying to solve.

@kazyan why does Krazy's "pocketing" of marci point to a krazy/marci team? I see that there's mentioning of jokeclaiming masons as there's hard townleaning. I don't see that as pocketing Marci as mafia can certainly identify town. I find it more indicative of Krazy than Marci.

VOTE: Krazy

[2ndchosen1]

I was just trying to get in the conversation after not really seeing anything of major significance. it's d1 and I wasn't expecting much. Is there something you wish for me to expound on?

as for Meuh, I would figure my last post kind of hints at my position on them. They've made non-helpful content but nothing that's really AI in my eyes. I figured it was a newbie queue, I'll see if it continues.

I find being more confident in the vote, or at least giving the facade, gives it more pressure in general. your immediate thought is that I have knowledge on your alignment but I see stuff like "I tend to be very assertive in what I want town to do." followed by "I am not the mayor of this game". I try and look at messages and intent. That seems to be a very contradictive statement as new people may latch on to SE leadership like this.

the "why did you think the emotes are that important Krazy" question was more a "Am I missing something?" question.

[2ndchosen1]

i can't really do anything but explain what my thoufgts were at the time to a "there wasn't enough content for me" argument. maybe i'm just bad at tone in text as most people in my last game had me as null basivally throughout despite actually wanting to look town. I should rwally use more emoticons to help me fit in even more or to force a chsnge my tone?

@krazy as for my reads
biggest town read - kazyan, their thoughts and actions seem unchanged from our previous gane where he was town. Seems provides a solid analysis and acknowledges flaws pointed out to them rsther quickly, yet not defensively.
biggest scum read - krazy, the posts on ypu are performative yet aasertive, and I get scum vibes from it. if my stuff is content bare how am i supposed to take stuff like you qupting things and just saying "townie" the least i could see is "townie because ..." so i could follow some reasoning. i've seen people hide behind this. anythimg i say to your wall will be twisted out of proportion, by you or other scum. I will admit meuh is competing for the position, but you're an SE and I expected more reasoning behind stuff? Problems should not be multiplied without necessity and doing full game readlists in D1 seems unhelpful and at worst obscuring. of most interest to me is how you have Meuh in the center of that readlist despite what has been brought up, supposedly even I was supposed to have some kind of stance on them in my first post, Null was simply not good enough. Seems to be the safest place to put a scum partner for you?

@meuh, only had the one real scumleam declaration at the time of your post. when/how would a reasonable ex[ansion of my reads be appropriate? my past posts only some townlesn reads and justifications for those townleams. not exactly hiding behind my reads. following people just to follow is how one loses as town. Be receptive but skeptical, message and intent matters
"oh no, i've been caught!!!!1!!!!111! "
"haha, it's definitely not me!!!! me just smooth brain" at least i'm not just invoking hanlon's razor. i gave a pass on the iioa list and maybe it's confbias, but i hid behind the things you have done in my last game and have even explained to a degree how that can come across as scummy, yet it still happens?

I'll be on more later this evening after I make suooer

[2ndchosen1]

I'll condense the soup about you then

I'm saying that I've been in a total of two games, the rest of my experience is literally just among us. My first game I expressed behavior I find similar to yours, and I was scum in that game. specifically the read listing and the "I don't know what I'm doing though" remind me of myself in that game.
"Playing dumb" I'm just genuinely not sure what he's saying there? and I haven't played a serious or read based mafia game since like... April
I don't know how many games you've done on these other sites, and maybe your skills have degraded since, I also haven't played Settler's of Catan in over a year and yet I feel I could still play a mean game of it, I would expect certain fundamentals to be around.

I understand that you haven't necessarily played on this site before. Forum posting isn't exactly my forte either, I don't think I've really got a handle on tone to any real degree for any role. it's why I initially have taken you as Nullread. What do you think of me right now? has any of the others voting on me or you stood out and why?

[2ndchosen1]

I currently see marci as a null, the defense doesn't exactly pocket me and she is clearly asking for more on your thought process on me rather than an actual rush to my aid. Some of the more recent ones even mention that she doesn't see me as innocent but wants to see more of your reasoning. It's not pocketing me, it's not even fighting for my innocence, just wanting to know more from you and me. I see the action as a whole NAI.

@meuh is what kazyan's done really enough of an attack on Krazy that it could be called chainsawing? yes or no, and why you think so, if you'd please.

@krazy, I thought it was kazyan, not marci, you were accusing of chainsaw?
"Technically it'd be more accurate to accuse you of chainsawing, I think,

Kazy.

"

[2ndchosen1]

@cantrip
Kazyan is correct, I've only had the one other game.
I was more pointing out how bad this quote is.
"Shallow and opportunistic votes are the easiest to follow for my small brain getting adjusted to the game, so that's what I'm going with. The push on 2nd made me question my original read, so I went back, reread, and got some weird vibes from- like I said, the lack of analysis in his first few posts and his progressively angrier and more annoyed tone."
IF Meuh is townie then she's not exactly one I'd want to keep around, see Antrax's Guide to Being a Good Townie from the wiki. krazy at least is more brainy about her moves

tyvm to Ali for the newbie resources, much appreciated.

[2ndchosen1]

"if your reads are as quasi-oog-political as they seem I don't get why marci isn't top tier town for you"
I've no clue what to even get from this qop

apologies for not being around more, literally got 13hr days at work till thurs. i am tired when i get back.

[2ndchosen1]

holy hell, if it wasn't for other stuff I'd almost take the hyperposting as obfuscation of posts as boy does it make me want to just skip pages, ty again to alisae for the ppp URL stuff

@cantrip
"@2ndChosen: Talk to me about your first game. What did you think? What was it like? Etc."
the general strategy that I am proud to be the one to have implemented was a kind of chaos strat. We had an IC that was giving ok reads at best but even when he had some scum we left him alive. this caused a doubt in his reads as repeatedly town kept coming up and we killed any town that might have been a stabilizing influence to the game. It spiraled into enough pressure that he ultimately made nothing but iffy calls at best while the rest of town sheeped the IC. I mentioned in an earlier post to meuh a few things about it like me giving some IIOA lists that I hid behind and that I had played the "Am new here, am smooth brained, plz disregard" card. of course, unlike meuh I did those on D2 and D3, when such things should be more severe. but luckily by D3 the pressure on IC was pretty much overloaded. Was a fun game, and we did manage to keep IC to the end.
looking back a lot of things fell into place a lot better than it should have, D1 eliminated all non-Vigi power roles of a JOAT and Bp townie.

so....how does me talking about this help with the current game? wouldn't it be better to get my meta/impression of the game from the actual topic?

@meuh

These are Harumi and 2nd's only mentions of each other (and 2nd doesn't even directly mention Harumi) AFAIK. I wouldn't really be surprised of them as a duo? 2 newbies who null each other, have yet to actually interact and generally haven't said much about the other despite both being some of the people most pushed, while both pushing for me as a counterpush, I would see this as a potential scum duo. Could you explain the reasoning behind that statement? I didn't understand it, and after looking into it, I came out thinking they're actually a very real possibility.

is there any reason that harumi/2nd combo is more scummy for non-interaction more than Ethos(ali)/2nd, Cantrip/2nd, IVD/2nd
I've not really had strong interaction with any of them.

Pedit:

{Kazyan, Meuh, Chosen, and Harumi} all flipping town means I have no idea what is going in this game.

Well I know one of them are town so you never know

I'd wager at least 2 are, actually.

[2ndchosen1]

ali, why isn't the ppp thing an option? it's so nice

[2ndchosen1]

oooo I've only seen the single person ISO, tyvm again.

also before I answer that, Why do you prefer being my hammer over my E-1?

[2ndchosen1]

when is D1 end?
I'll give a small list
Alisae, I'd Townread you for the info alone. Moreso the move with the hammer and E-1, I don't think scum would be ballsy enough to do that D1. it screams town at me.
IVD, townlean, sparse posts but is sharp on what comes out. voting presence feels weak because of it though,
Krazy, townlean, I thought it was opportunistic to jump on a latecomer, I do see good things from her in terms of content
Cantrip, townlean, it's near the end of D1, I've mostly seen delay but I can't criticize on this point. the walls are nice and I like that he puts in the quotes, it makes me think in the future he wants his post understood easily in iso
Meuh, null, tbf fair to kazyan she has actually done stuff I did as scum, but it's D1 and I wouldn't consider that a severe D1 problem.
Kazyan, scumlean, I like his statements where he describes how he's reasoning, but I can't help but think he's picked out someone who exhibits signs I showed in last game. Almost courting my vote by meta, I don't like it.
Marci, scumlean, I've been unable to parse whether her defense on me has been about pocketing me, but it has gone on far longer than I thought it would honestly. I don't really see it as earning towncred on a flip as that'd be the first thing most would ask.
Harumi, scumlean, same issue of being a non-entity in terms of only a vote presence. I'm behind her by 3 posts

Pedit:
I'm like half falling asleep and stared at the cookie monster gif way to long, so that's all I can give right now, night

[2ndchosen1]

i don't think I'd get that salty over a D1 elm to threaten quitting the site, after all I can still win, it's just suboptimal. but otherwise, that hurts.....but is a lil true.

[2ndchosen1]

not claiming

I actually don't hate chosen's reads but the lack of any push behind his reads or any solving content makes it hard to know what to do with his reads. He feels super disengaged. I think if he is town, then if he'd ever voted anyone else this game I could have eventually found him town, but voteparking me literally all of day 1 is just a great way to make me uninterested in seeing you alive on day 2.

My vote's on you still because you're the one I'm flip flopping on most actually. and my wagon seems enough influence

I have a tendency to use hyperbole and confidence regarding reads.

This does not feel like a game where I'm shooting 50%+ though, ngl.

what happened to your self proclaimed confidence? clearly, you have scum in your hands all you need do is hit the hammer. You've known since my first post near page 6.

I put up that shitty barebones thing to respond to ali and your main gripe is that is I didn't unvote you?
You at least ask some decent questions and are at least willing to put your neck out but I also know leading a wagon D1 and being first in line is a very safe and desirable position for scum be in, I should know.
How do you read your fellow wagoneers? specifically Cantrip and IVD. I'd like to hear your current thoughts on them

I'm curious about the kazy trajectory here as well as the 'sing town" and "scream town" statements which feel a little weird

I used that to express how much something leans to me actually, singing being "soft" and screaming being "harder". That is a neat thing about my language I wasn't even thinking of at the time. ty for pointing it out, I find it amusing.

Kazy pointed at meuh who has done things I did as scum in my last game and is solidly reading her as such. I'm not sure if this was a slight meta attempt to get me to jump to the Meuh wagon at the time, and I do see Kazyan as smart enough to do something like that. There are enough differences between Voice talk and Forum talk that I've not got a full grasp on him here.

[2ndchosen1]

if you regard your reads list as shitty and barebones, why was the other readslist also shitty and barebones?

....what? of course it was, I'm working 13 hour days and am generally tired., I'm frankly surprised no one clutched their pearls and wnet *gasp* iioa! course that'd be to easy and I'm already on the chopping block, might be better to do nothing and letem hang.

I'm not vlaiming. you can hammer a policy on me if you want for that. msybe I am PR, naybe I'm not. yiu can take that chance. ;et's be honest ylu'll hammer me for all this snyway.

I don't movr my vote to wagpns to whatever is the current hot wagon, I don't want to be a sheep

@kasyam what're your current thoufgts on my wagon? am I acting as expectef?

[2ndchosen1]

2nd’s flip should give us valuable information regardless of alignment. The positioning of slots around his will be telling.

exactly

[2ndchosen1]

either way the wagon either needs to be moved or your chips are in on it.

[2ndchosen1]

@kasyam what're your current thoufgts on my wagon? am I acting as expectef?

I can't say anything for sure, but I have a gut feeling that you flip VT.

why's the gut got ya goin? can you expand? as if I do survive that tells me nothing and I may as well think that your defense is as thought out as marci's

[2ndchosen1]

are you telling Kazyan to do it? or anyone?

[2ndchosen1]

oh we're at any dissenting opinion this late in the wagon is scummy?

[2ndchosen1]

apologies for not being around more, literally got 13hr days at work till thurs. i am tired when i get back.

today is friday

[2ndchosen1]

if you regard your reads list as shitty and barebones, why was the other readslist also shitty and barebones?

....what? of course it was, I'm working 13 hour days and am generally tired., I'm frankly surprised no one clutched their pearls and wnet *gasp* iioa! course that'd be to easy and I'm already on the chopping block, might be better to do nothing and letem hang.

I'm not vlaiming. you can hammer a policy on me if you want for that. msybe I am PR, naybe I'm not. yiu can take that chance. ;et's be honest ylu'll hammer me for all this snyway.

I don't movr my vote to wagpns to whatever is the current hot wagon, I don't want to be a sheep

@kasyam what're your current thoufgts on my wagon? am I acting as expectef?

fwiw I did claim, I breadcrumbed vanilla
"I'm not vlaiming. you can hammer a policy on me if you want for that. msybe I am PR, naybe I'm not. yiu can take that chance. ;et's be honest ylu'll hammer me for all this snyway."
Vlaiming - V
Msybe - Replaced A
naybe - N
yiu - I
;ets - replaced L
ylu'll - L
snyway - Replaced A

[2ndchosen1]

2nd’s flip should give us valuable information regardless of alignment. The positioning of slots around his will be telling.

[2ndchosen1]

Also this is kinda bad sportsmanship, but if you get scum for a third time, you could just not confirm the PM.

Don't do this

I can confirm that discussing whether you would or would not accept scum role pms is in fact something that WILL get you banned on this site so it's best to avoid even talking about replacing out due to seeing red in the PM.

oh no, my job/fam/friends do keep me from being on here to much, and often times it can be a hard ask to even read things through carefully as I've only got like an hour before sleep for looking at things. I definitely liked that my last game I could ping ideas off other mafia more than this one but that's how it goes I s'pose. Was also an attempt to break my last play cause I was under the impression meta is used a lot. it doesn't help I've literally not had a town perspective at all yet

[2ndchosen1]

the gambit was based off of what I heard from Hayker, where suicidal things tend to be towny. I was legit expecting Kazyan to not vote me immediately after the "no."

[2ndchosen1]

Also meant to quote this, Q+ messing with me again

Chosen -- Honestly I think avoiding spewing too much was an altogether reasonable choice, I still don't think you'd have pinged me so much if you'd been a bit more liberal with your vote. If you write a post that says you're basically scumreading someone, you should vote them, and if you write a post saying someone is no longer your scumread, you should vote someone else. That day 2 took *all* of day 2 reflects how little I got out of your iso lol.

[2ndchosen1]

I'm curious of Marci's thoughts now, she at least said she was lost most the game

[2ndchosen1]

so what was the Town PR?

[2ndchosen1]

if I survived D1 IVD was on my list of people needing to gotten rid of, wouldn't have gone down the SE list, but last game I got a lotta success from hitting those who simply did good deductive/stabilizing posts. there needs more paranoia and tin foil hatting

[2ndchosen1]

wasn't cause I even thought he was PR tho as that's almost an afterthought to me

[2ndchosen1]

we did both get pings off Kazyan for mason tho

[2ndchosen1]

What? Like, if we were masons together? If I knew for sure that anyone was town, this would be a lot easier.

this hit me as an actual mason crumb, I've seen him do decent crumbing last game and fell into that pothole