Newbie 2054 - GAME OVER

[Cantripmancer]

VOTE: Krazy

For being...well...crazy.

[Cantripmancer]

VOTE: Krazy

Ah, that's better.

[Cantripmancer]

I have a tendency to use hyperbole and confidence regarding reads. Part of this hyperbole is saying 'im masons with x' or 'i have a guilty on y' -- these are not softs and I am not trying to rolefish or anything like that. They are just a way of expressing my reads in shorthand, usually to indicate I liked or disliked one specific post. For example, I might say "I'm masons with marcistar" and that would be more a way to express my initial take on their first post and not a real hardclaim. I say that because I was about to say "I'm masons with marcistar" -- usually I'd just leave it at that since people in normals/large themes would usually get that it wasn't a serious claim.

Any particular reason you choose to use language that has game connotations? For example, if I liked a particular take or perspective, instead of "I'm masons with marcistar", I'd say something like "I'm mindmelding with Marci" or "Marci makes a good point" or even just "/barn Marci". It feels a bit needlessly confusing (especially when it comes to something as extreme as "I have a guilty on Y").

[Cantripmancer]

Usually just because jokeclaiming masons/guilties is more fun and direct. To be clear, it's also something I usually drop by day 2. The silliness of it has to deal with just getting through day 1; since obviously being masons is the only way to have a townread on someone day 1, and there's actually no way whatsoever to have a day 1 guilty there's no actual risk of "I have a guilty on x" as being confused for a real claim.

ThumbsUp.gif

All in favor of town PR claims being presented as transformation sequences when the time comes to do that?

I have no idea what you're saying here. Explain, please?

[Cantripmancer]

@Kazyan: Got it, sorry. Thanks for the clarification.

Seriously...no posts in 24 hours early on D1? Where is everyone???

Let's see...looks like everyone's posted at least once except 2ndchosen1.

@2ndchosen1: Come play!

@Kazyan: Supposing the power of friendship isn't enough? How will you find the scum?

@Meuh: *I* don't have an anime girl for my profile pic. Why is Kazyan scum and I'm not?

@Marcistar: Are you scum?

@ItalianoVD: 2ndchosen1's turn for what?

[Cantripmancer]

Lol...I know I hit refresh, but apparently there were 70ish posts that didn't load???? Please ignore my #93 while I catch up...

Preview edit: oh NOW the forum tells me I might want to review my post in light of new posts.

[Cantripmancer]

Figured it out. I'm used to 50ppp, refreshed on page 1, saw "post 24", and didn't even think that there might be more pages. lol

Townlean on Krazy for the openness of mindset in #51. That "I look forward to looking back on my reads" mentality doesn't feel like it comes naturally from scum.

Also digging Meuh's excitement in #52.

Italiano's indignation toward Krazy gives me town vibes, but I recently played a game where I got burned by faked indignation, so that's a weaker take than it would have been a month ago.

Meuh, given your reads list had kazyan as a good vibes townlean, why did you not move your vote after writing the list?

I thought about doing that, but I just felt like it was unnecessary and I didn't wanna give the host more to keep track of, essentially. Switching onto someone else to pressure them is a good idea though, so VOTE:

eth0s

It's been discussed, but in a game of Mafia, saying "I didn't want to make the mod have to track a vote change" feels a bit fake. (I've modded--am in fact currently modding--and I've never once thought "gosh, I wish my players would stop changing their vote; it's so inconvenient".)

@Marci: Why the panic attack at the end of #78? Like...what you communicated sounded fine, but the all caps craziness feels overdone.

Wait, dangit, I got you mixed up with a different person. Ack.

UNVOTE: Cantripmancer

VOTE: eth0s

C'mon, do something.

Uh...explain, please? How did you mix me up with eth0s?

*kills this talking point forever*

Not a fan of the "nothing to see here, folks, move along" vibes from this post. There's a LOT of words here to protest the weight of your read.

Random thought, but even if I'm wrong on one of them, Meuh and Harumi are never ever scum together after Meuh has committed herself to use the sunglasses emote in every post after Harumi's emotes complaint post

That doesn't feel like it's something to base an unaligned pair upon. Can you go into more detail as to your thinking here?

@Meuh: Yeah, I know your "anime girl in pic" thing was RVS. I thought thread had died for 24 hours and was just trying to generate discussion.

I feel like RVS can safely be considered to be ended, but I'm going to leave my RVS on Krazy for the time being.

Preview edit: I will lol so hard if this is a Marci/Mueh scumteam.

[Cantripmancer]

Townlean on Krazy for the openness of mindset in #51. That "I look forward to looking back on my reads" mentality doesn't feel like it comes naturally from scum.

[edited out]

I feel like RVS can safely be considered to be ended, but I'm going to leave my RVS on Krazy for the time being.

Preview edit: I will lol so hard if this is a Marci/Mueh scumteam.

this is a pretty interesting post

No, I meant what I said. Your 51 gave me

really

strong town vibes, enough to put you at townlean. And then a few of your other posts rubbed me the wrong way, so when I got to the end and figured I should move/remove my RVS vote, I decided I'd just keep it parked nice and cozy until you had responded.

It feels like you really dug into my 101; you've even brought it up multiple times. So why didn't you respond to my question about your 98?

Post 240 in 1941 -- that's who kazy is reminding me of. Holden was technically writing that post as a joke but the overall result (a town wallcasing me that 'reallly' is a kinda nullish read rather than an actual hard push) feels the same. Obviously the tone is quite different but I think I generally townread people who write a wallpost about me that doesn't actually reach a conclusion now lol. Sorry I can link the post later but that's one reason I have kazy as pretty hard town atm. This post will make more sense when I can link it.

Pedit: yay welcome 2nd! This a very townie town so far so I'm looking forward to your reads

I'm going to come back to this after you respond again.

@Meuh: My apologies for the name mangling.

@2nd: 50ppp = 50 posts per page. And welcome. What specifically about IVD's 67 feels town to you?

Right now I'm somewhere at:

Town:

Marci
Meuh
Kazyan
Krazy*

Null:

Harumi
2nd
eth0s

Scum:

Italiano
Krazy*

Spoiler: *

Ahhhhh! I obviously forgot that I put Krazy as a Town read and then listed them as Scum, too! Ahhhhh!.....or did I? DUN DUN DUUUUUNNN!

Spoiler: Because I Can Read Minds

Inquire vve do. Investigate vve do. Action! What can I say; I'm a fan.

[Cantripmancer]

Cantrip were you writing that readslist before this page with 2nd?

That's pretty close to what my readslist was before this page. Why?

Also: thanks for answering. I was getting strong vibes both ways with you, but a) your explanation on the Meuh/Harumi unalignment feels natural, b) there's another thing I won't talk about yet, and c) this:

Post 240 in 1941 -- that's who kazy is reminding me of. Holden was technically writing that post as a joke but the overall result (a town wallcasing me that 'reallly' is a kinda nullish read rather than an actual hard push) feels the same. Obviously the tone is quite different but I think I generally townread people who write a wallpost about me that doesn't actually reach a conclusion now lol. Sorry I can link the post later but that's one reason I have kazy as pretty hard town atm. This post will make more sense when I can link it.

Pedit: yay welcome 2nd! This a very townie town so far so I'm looking forward to your reads

...might not be a definite tell, but I have a hard time seeing mafia going to lengths to find/remember a specific post from *checks date* a year and a half ago[!], highlighting it as comparable to a current post, using it to base a read, and then basically unpacking it and saying "ok, it probably doesn't feel comparable to anyone else (and it was a joke post, to boot), but I'm going to persist in my town read because of it". Not to say that mafia can't put in that kind of effort, but not only are there easier ways to fake a townread (or townread a buddy), but that kind of thought process feels just as likely to attract scrutiny as it does to achieve anything else. So...

UNVOTE: Krazy

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[Cantripmancer]

Wait I'm stupid Kazyan is voting me so it is omgus. Or could be called that I guess. Meh, whatever.

You're saying your vote on Kazyan is OMGUS? I've always thought of OMGUS as specifically "I'm voting this person

solely

because they're voting/attacking me". And you talked about other reasons you found Kazyan suspicous, so how would that be OMGUS? (Not voting someone just because they were voting you first is a weird reason not to vote someone. Cross-voting naturally occurs all the time.)

Additionally, you're now voting Meuh. Your catchup in 146 indicated a little suspicion on Meuh based on their vote progression, but then you also say you like Meuh's explanation. But then I don't see anything else in your posts discussing why you suspect Meuh, so...why are you voting Meuh? Especially after going to lengths to explain why you don't like cross-voting/looking like you're OMGUSing, identifying a possible alternative suspect (IVD), and then voting Meuh (when Meuh is still voting you)?

[Cantripmancer]

I do not yet wish to talk about why I am voting Meuh instead of Kazyan.

I can respect this, in the short term.

And what I said about Italiano was so surface level that you might as well consider it a joke. I know that isn't particularly helpful but really I was saying based solely off of memory and feels that Italiano was the name that stuck out when considering people that were not voting for me.

And...ok on this, too? I still don't understand the mindset of "Vote Kazyan! Oh wait, they're voting me, so it could be construed as OMGUS. Ok, if I had to vote someone not voting me, it'd be Italiano. Yeah, I don't want to vote Kazyan who's voting me...Vote Meuh, instead (who's also voting me)!"

P-edit for 2ndchosen1: I said a Krazy/Harumi team, not a Krazy/marci team. It seemed plausible to me that an SE would be thinking ahead towards ELo by making close friends with one person and feeling around how everyone else responded, while the newcomer just tried to generate openings. I am now rethinking that, given what Cantrip said.

+town for the re-evaluation.

@Cantrip: Why are you scumreading me, just curious? I think I may have missed your reason.

I was mostly going for a mild reaction test to see how you'd respond to a naked vote without reasoning. You get a +town for the evenness of your tone/casualness, but that's tempered a bit by it being your first order of business in that post. Given that it's not in chronological order with your other observations, it feels like you're a bit more concerned with my vote on you than your tone lets on.

@Krazy: I'm vibing with your methodology.

[Cantripmancer]

Just a heads up that weekends are very busy for me. I *should* be able to post in the evenings, but it's unlikely I'll be able to respond during the day.

[Cantripmancer]

Sorry for (essentially) V/LA over the weekend. I thought I'd have more opportunity. Catching up this morning as time permits.

[Cantripmancer]

Ok, I normally hate posting before I'm fully caught up, but I don't want y'all to have to wait. So here are my thoughts through 274.

Fair. I mean for me it's partly PoE. I have Flip, Kazy, and eth0s as pretty hard town right now. If those three reads are right, even throwing darts at a dartboard on the remaining slots has a pretty good chance of flipping red.

Who's Flip?

I've read through your readslist Krazy and I didn't know what to think about it, because as I said I'd like to hope you are townie, but I just don't know, however, the tone of 215 feels like caught scum to me.

The progression of your perspective feels weird, IVD. You read through Krazy's reads and a) don't know what to think about them, but b) you "like to hope" they're town, but c) you just don't know, BUT d) you agree with Krazy on their scumspect (2ndChosen). Why the quadruple(!) waffle there? Why not just say "I don't know if you're town, Krazy, but I agree with your Chosen read because of..."?

However, I can agree with your take here:

This:

I was just trying to get in the conversation after not really seeing anything of major significance.

...

"I was just"

feels like "how could you scumread me, I'm doing what everyone else is doing?" which just feels like disappointed scum to me.

And this:

the "why did you think the emotes are that important Krazy" question was more a "Am I missing something?" question.

Feels like a backpedal. When 2nd came out he wasn't necessarily trying to see if he was missing something, iirc he came out pretty confidently with his reads and his questioning, but when Krazy called him out and started scumreading him, his tone changed. Now it feels like he's pleading. What do you think @Krazy, @Kazyan, @Meuh, @Ethos [@Cantrip]

This I'm a bit lukewarm on, though, as I've felt that kind of tone change from newer players (regardless of alignment). It's NAI for me.

I'm saying that I've been in a total of two games, the rest of my experience is literally just among us. My first game I expressed behavior I find similar to yours, and I was scum in that game. specifically the read listing and the "I don't know what I'm doing though" remind me of myself in that game.
"Playing dumb" I'm just genuinely not sure what he's saying there? and I haven't played a serious or read based mafia game since like... April
I don't know how many games you've done on these other sites, and maybe your skills have degraded since, I also haven't played Settler's of Catan in over a year and yet I feel I could still play a mean game of it, I would expect certain fundamentals to be around.

I understand that you haven't necessarily played on this site before. Forum posting isn't exactly my forte either, I don't think I've really got a handle on tone to any real degree for any role. it's why I initially have taken you as Nullread. What do you think of me right now? has any of the others voting on me or you stood out and why?

Were you scum in both games, or was your second game town? I know I've seen plenty of new town players express feelings of "I don't know what I'm doing". I'm not even sure I'm parsing this post and 243 correctly, though. Are you just trying to discredit Meuh's argument?

Marci it will be hard to find you town at endgame if you keep not voting, we need your vote to be proactive so that vote logic is comprehensible in the game

I agree with the sentiment here, but the language feels a little like a threat ("if you keep not voting, you're more likely to be seen as scum"). Why use this wording rather than just saying "not voting makes it harder to read players later in the game; please vote so we have that info to analyze later"?

Why do you have ~a level~ of confidence in harumi being scum, moreso than chosen who you've indicated is null?

im not super confident in harumi being scum, but out of everyone she seems the most scummy.

when i looked at chosens posts it looks like defending themself, which i dont rlly see anything wrong in them..? i cant see whats scummy about them at all..? i think they're just an easy push for some people to make (from what i understand they were scum their last game..? i havent read it at all, but if they were scum last of their games, u guys seem to be not giving much of a chance this time to them..?)

vs harumi who i think doesnt rlly have a level of confidence.. idk but i thought in newbie games i thought scum would be more nervous..? i think her not having confidence = shes nervous = shes scum...

i also have thought about other possible votes i could make but i dont think it would be very uhh... have very good logic behind it?
im so bad at carrying im sorry

Marci still so town.

@Marci: Defensiveness itself isn't necessarily scummy. When I see defensiveness, I often look at two things: the degree of the reaction within the context of the game (i.e. did one player attack them and they posted a wall of defensiveness?), and whether or not they continue scumhunting at the same time. For that latter, looking at Chosen's 215 as one example, I'm not a fan of the "Is there something you'd like me to expound on" question, but I like that they're scrutinizing Krazy's intent between saying both that they're assertive and don't want to be the mayor. (I don't agree with Chosen that it's contradictory, but it's something I see from them beyond just being defensive.)

Imagine having a whole debate about whether 2ndchosen1 is scummy when Meuh is right there, being scum.

Ok, we get it that you're confident in your Meuh read. I can certainly see where you're coming from, but...I'm not sure that voting pattern only comes from opportunistic scum. Your strongest example is the Chosen read, I think, but even then, Meuh

has

reasoning for their change in opinion (with points not brought up by others, afaict). So...I like your push, but I'm not sure I agree that Meuh is scum.

My new thing was the method I used to figure out who was scum: figure out how a person's actions, in their ISO, make sense

if

they're scum--just assume they are and work out the details. If nothing makes sense, then the starting assumption of scumminess can't be correct. For most people, I could not thus construct a narrative that made sense--but for Meuh, everything clicked immediately.

I did this for a while, and I found that I started tunneling town more often than correctly finding scum. It's too easy for my brain to go "hey, this

could

make sense if they're scum". YMMV, of course, so this isn't a "stop! don't go down that path!" as much as it is a cautionary tale.

[Cantripmancer]

I had more time to catch up than I expected, yay!

I don’t think scum would fight hard to save a townie so I think the Marci/2nd connection is gonna be more like t/s or s/s. @Marci: I believe you are either mistaken or you are scum with 2nd.

I highly doubt that on Day 1 a townie would be that adamant about saving another townie without having knowledge that they are townie, so I don’t believe it’s a t/t connection. (I.e. they aren’t masons together)

This feels like you're not even considering the possibility that Chosen might be town; why the confidence?

Also, I'm confused. I feel like Marci's defense of Chosen is being perceived as excessive, so wouldn't it make more sense to postulate that Marci and Chosen

might

be masons rather than discounting the possibility? And wouldn't the logical alternative to explain Marci's defense of Chosen if they're

not

masons be that

Marci

is scum white knighting Chosen (if it's unlikely that a townie would be excessive in defending a townie)?

I can see scum white knighting a townie for towncred if they think the townie gets flipped despite the defense.

Thats true, but in this case it’d be so obvious, at least in the way it’s being done.

Are you familiar with TSTBS (Too Scummy To Be Scum)?

Here's the better question -- do you *townread* chosen in a way that you *want* him alive tomorrow, marci?

no townread on chosen, but yes i want them alive for tomorrow. i feel like theres better elims for today
i wanna sort chosen out d2 (when they would

hopefully

have more time to post..?)

If you had a day kill and could eliminate Harumi, who would you vote to eliminate if they flipped town? What if they flipped scum?

basically "attacking someone pushing your buddy to indirectly protect your buddy by lowering the pusher's towncred"

This is, imo, a very good succinct definition of a chainsaw defense.

I would also like Harumi's readslist.

Here's mine, with Harumi absent, because it will depend on her response:

Townread

:
IVD

Townlean

:
Krazy
marci
Cantrip

Null

:
2ndchosen1

Scumlean

:
eth0s (for his conspicuous silence)

Wow such scum

:
Meuh

That is sorta bizarre because I'm in agreement on multiple slots here but I have IVD and Meuh swapped...and Chosen is in scumlean with eth0s...and I guess IVD isn't "wow such scum" as much as they're "most concerning so far". What do you like from IVD?

Also, welcome @Alisae!

[Cantripmancer]

Also, I'm confused. I feel like Marci's defense of Chosen is being perceived as excessive, so wouldn't it make more sense to postulate that Marci and Chosen might be masons rather than discounting the possibility? And wouldn't the logical alternative to explain Marci's defense of Chosen if they're not masons be that Marci is scum white knighting Chosen (if it's unlikely that a townie would be excessive in defending a townie)?

uuhh don't mason hunt day 1? :3

Ok, fair, and mea culpa, but the point remains: why highlight the

opposite

?

wtf I stop refreshing the thread for like an hour and suddenly we have HYPERPOSTING

Alright, let's go. Regarding some of Cantrip's takes, which are as hot as I was hoping they'd be:

1) I townread IVD because his posts come across as methodical and insightful--claims like the S/T or S/S relationship between Marci and 2ndchosen1 are strong and helpful, instead of trying to look busy. Given what you've pointed out, I can see how the tone and intent of his posts count be interpreted a different way, but I'm still thinking townie for now. I'll review things on Day 2.
2) 2ndchosen1's second game is this one. He has only one game before this, Mini Normal 2187, in which he was scum.
3) This "falsifying scumread" method indeed completely ignores strong pro-town signals, which is probably why you got burned and why I will at some point. I will likely get more sophisticated in evaluating people as I continue playing.

1) I feel like you're maybe only reading half of their posts/choosing which half you read.
2) Ah, ok.
3) Like I said: you do you.

The progression of your perspective feels weird, IVD. You read through Krazy's reads and a) don't know what to think about them, but b) you "like to hope" they're town, but c) you just don't know, BUT d) you agree with Krazy on their scumspect (2ndChosen). Why the quadruple(!) waffle there? Why not just say "I don't know if you're town, Krazy, but I agree with your Chosen read because of..."?

Just saying “null” is boring.

But you didn't say "null" (nor is that what I was suggesting you say as an alternative). You twice said "I don't know", once said you "like to hope" they're town (which sorta looks like saying they're town on the surface, but isn't really), and then add a single perspective in which you agree with them. It feels very strongly like you don't want to say the "wrong" thing, rather than just being forthcoming with what you DO think.

This I'm a bit lukewarm on, though, as I've felt that kind of tone change from newer players (regardless of alignment). It's NAI for me.

In the context of 2nd/krazy, I don’t see it in this way. I’ll try to go back and show you what I mean, but it’ll probably be later though.

I may have missed it, but what’s your top scumread(s) or limpool?

Still you. Next step is to do a concentrated read of your ISO, but there have been several posts you've made that I don't feel come from town.

I need reads on Harumi and 2ndchosen1 from you Alisae-chan <3 <3 <3

{Harumi Meuh} 1 scum max 61
I don't think this is scum attacking scum and I think either side could be scum here.
Meuh posting a readlist here is strange and I don't see a reason why Meuh needs to post a readlist right now?
Harumi attacking that readlist could be a scum motivated action.
Both of them being villagers is possible.

{Italiano, 2ndchosen} 1 scum max 226
the justification on the vote pings me from Italiano so if Italiano is scum, 2ndchosen could be town,
but also Italiano being town is quite possible from what I read earlier so it could also be possible that it's Italiano town and 2ndchosen scum.

{kazyan, meuh} 1 scum max 236
the whole thing pings me and reads like scum voting town, I don't like how kazyan is basically describing meuh's actions like everything about it is scummy and it pings me.


As for actual reads
{Krazy}
{Italiano, Marci}
{Cantrip}
{Meuh}
{Harumi, 2ndchosen, kazyan}

Not super digging what I feel is a condescending tone in your posts, but that's probably just your confidence shining through. Just how experienced are you, if I may ask? You get a townlean, though, for the solving approach.

Out for a bit, but hopefully will have time to ISO IVD later tonight and see if my overall impressions stay the same.

[Cantripmancer]

Hmm, I had a hot take that Alisae and Krazy were buddies, but that whole "not playing mafia atm" confusion feels unlikely to be scum theatre.

[Cantripmancer]

like ur a red/green player and I play blue.

I'm intrigued: unpack this for me?

Also, I'm confused. I feel like Marci's defense of Chosen is being perceived as excessive, so wouldn't it make more sense to postulate that Marci and Chosen

might

be masons rather than discounting the possibility? And wouldn't the logical alternative to explain Marci's defense of Chosen if they're

not

masons be that

Marci

is scum white knighting Chosen (if it's unlikely that a townie would be excessive in defending a townie)?

Tbh, I could always be scum white knighting chosen is a possibility, but i think everybody will need to judge that for themselves. It isn't my intention to white knight them, and if I really wanted to I would've placed them as an actual town read. I just want them to have a chance

FTR, I don't think you're scum white knighting Chosen, nor do I think you're masons. I'm more interested in how Italiano says he's going about trying to sort you and Chosen.

@cantrip
Kazyan is correct, I've only had the one other game.
I was more pointing out how bad this quote is.
"Shallow and opportunistic votes are the easiest to follow for my small brain getting adjusted to the game, so that's what I'm going with. The push on 2nd made me question my original read, so I went back, reread, and got some weird vibes from- like I said, the lack of analysis in his first few posts and his progressively angrier and more annoyed tone."
IF Meuh is townie then she's not exactly one I'd want to keep around, see Antrax's Guide to Being a Good Townie from the wiki. krazy at least is more brainy about her moves

Ah, ok, thanks for clarifying.

Not super digging what I feel is a condescending tone in your posts, but that's probably just your confidence shining through. Just how experienced are you, if I may ask? You get a townlean, though, for the solving approach.

I'm not sure where you see that but its probably not intentional?
Either way I consider myself to be pretty experienced and I have a lot of pride in my gameplay.

Like I said, I'm probably seeing your confidence in the wrong light; it's all good.

tbh your rep in to flavor vs hectic was pretty dope

I also remember liking your d1 in baker's wrestling game a lot more than this entrance from you atm

Can you link me to either of these games? I found this (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82624) by searching, but didn't see Alisae in the player list...

also I don't remember baker's game?
My rep ins compared to me being at the start of the game is fairly different and im a weird if I'm trying to catch-up?
If I showed you this game what would your response be: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=84369

I know this was meant for Krazy, but I'm curious: it feels like you're trying to highlight that you play differently when you're "there" for the full game vs when you replace in. But the game you link in this quote is, for all practical purposes, essentially a rep-in. You didn't see that the game had started until 800+ posts in.

That's really not the readslist I want right now

I say this with no offense intended: this made me laugh.

Yeah maybe she shouldn't be, maybe we need to go into read therapy

I'm getting a serious "lost innocent" vibe from the majority of her posts, and they sound sincere. That kind of thing is hard to fake, imo.

Chosen town-->Krazy scum bothers me a bit as well

Why, if you feel strongly that Chosen is scum?

intensive purposes

*triggered*

Spoiler:

don't nag alisae about "intents and purposes" don't nag alisae about...

@Krazy: Seriously, what % are you at for scum!Chosen? I don't feel strongly about Chosen yet, so I'm tempted to just /barn your read and see how they flip.

Collecting my thoughts on Italiano now.

[Cantripmancer]

Can you link me to either of these games? I found this (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82624) by searching, but didn't see Alisae in the player list...

Alisae was one of the heads of the heads of Wondertank

here's the iso from repping in to Flav vs Hec - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Thanks, but Flav vs. Hec I can't tell which posts are Alisae and which are Gamma, so...sorta hard to compare? And Wondertank was 3rd party in TBW, so...why are you highlighting that rep in?

I just feel like right now chosen is more interested in not getting flipped than in finding scum and that makes me think he's one of the better shots for scum day 1, but it *is day 1* and I kinda wanted to just channel the confidence I had when chosen did start posting stuff

like partly for me the amount of resistance the wagon got without chosen really doing anything particularly townie makes me more curious about the flip, but I'm not like "omg this always flips scum" at all

Remind me to come back to this later.

I'm intrigued: unpack this for me?

I wrote an MD thread about how MtG colors could translate into mafia:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85039

Ooooh, this is fun. For whatever self-analysis is worth, I usually *want* to be green/blue, but usually end up being white. (I also rarely catch the deepwolf. I'm usually pocketed by the deepwolf.)

I know this was meant for Krazy, but I'm curious: it feels like you're trying to highlight that you play differently when you're "there" for the full game vs when you replace in. But the game you link in this quote is, for all practical purposes, essentially a rep-in. You didn't see that the game had started until 800+ posts in.

he was saying that my rep-ins are usually different from this one no?
I don't get the point here.
Do you think that this is scum!indicative?

I don't really get any part of your and Krazy's exchange. I feel like it went something like this:

Krazy: I'm trying to sort Alisae based on their rep in entrance. E's entrance here is ok, but not as good as others.
Alisae: Oh? Like what others?
Krazy: Well, your entrance in Flav vs. Hectic was dope, and I remember liking your play in [a game where you were TPR].
Alisae: Well, me starting a game is different from me repping in; if I showed you [this game where I was town, but didn't post until after 800 posts], what would you think?

So if Krazy was trying to sort your alignment, it feels off to reference a TPR game of yours. And if you were trying to explain why your entrance here might feel different from your town game, why would you point Krazy to a game where you essentially were still repping in?

Not sure that it's AI; I'm just trying to first understand what point you're both trying to make.

This might come off as a tad evasive but it's a bit difficult to do a full iso read when five pages show up overnight

My rough readlist would have to be as follows:

{Krazy}
{Kazyan}
{alisae, cantripmancer, italiano, 2ndchosen} - I know I said I didn't like 2nd but I took another look and I've decided I might have been suffering from confirmation bias. Still a null for me though.
{Marcistar} - bit skittish and defensive which I don't like, but it's probably a playstyle thing so eh.
{meuh}

So you give rationale on two of your reads, upgrading Chosen, and giving what is, afaict, your

first

read on Marci all game. And you're attacking her for something very similar to what she's attacking you for in 261. This feels a little omgusy to me, so can you tell me what post(s) tipped your opinion on Marci into scumlean territory?

@Marci: Since your vote on Harumi in 259 you haven't moved your vote, but you also, unless I missed something, haven't talked about Harumi other than just recently asking them about finding you skittish. You've used a lot of words to talk about why you don't think Chosen is scum, but don't seem to be trying to figure Harumi out at all. Why not?

@2ndChosen: Talk to me about your first game. What did you think? What was it like? Etc.

I was falling asleep at my keyboard last night looking at IVD posts (not boring, IVD, I was just tired). I'll get back to that later today, time permitting.

[Cantripmancer]

when was this

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82624, you were half of Wondertank, correct?

[Cantripmancer]

On IVD:

29, contrary to Alisae's perspective, is the kind of post that raises my hackles because it sounds like trying to pre-emptively explain behavior that IVD feels needs to be explained.

67 has some "these are not the droids" vibes that I don't like, but the second half feels like true indignation.

113 the bulldogging onto what feels like a minor point (the emoji use accusation) is the kind of minutae that I used to obsess about all the time as town (and always felt like it was never productive enough to bother with when I was scum). +town

Also like the frustration in 117.

119 votes Harumi with a sorta meh "don't know why you're acting the way you are but either way it's not helpful so vote you" meander, but that follows where you'd been focusing. Could be scummy, but isn't a red flag.

190 I already mentioned that I sorta liked the way you responded to my naked vote, but didn't like that you seemed to be more focused on it than your casual inquiry let on. I had a bit of mindmeld on your comment on eth0s's 67, as I thought similar things.

226 I've already talked about this a little; still don't like the opening, but then I can agree with half the points on Chosen. Votes Chosen.

I sorta like 242's agreement with Kazyan's findings on Meuh paired with the retraction in 251. Feels like you're acknowledging a point but then weighing it against your Meuh observations from the rest of the game. I think mafia would be much more likely to either jump on the Meuh push or leave it more ambiguous. This isn't as strong a read if Meuh flips scum, I guess, but otherwise this feels town.

Mindset behind 283 still doesn't make sense to me, but without some flips in Marci/Chosen, I don't know that it's nefarious.

@IVD:

Can you rephrase what you were getting at in 48?

You never answered my question about 285: Are you familiar with Too Scummy to Be Scum (or Too Wolfy to Be Wolf)?

In [post]347[/url] you said you were going to go back and try to show me what you meant on Chosen/Krazy; did you do that/can you if you didn't?


Summary: Meh, this was much more a mixed bag of things I liked and disliked than I remembered. Not necessarily a townlean, but not my primary anymore.

UNVOTE: ItalianoVD

I see that there are a few more pages that I need to catch up on now, but I also want to take another look at Marci + Harumi. Anyone who thinks they see unalignments between those two: I'd appreciate you highlighting your reasons.

[Cantripmancer]

@cantrip
"@2ndChosen: Talk to me about your first game. What did you think? What was it like? Etc."
the general strategy that I am proud to be the one to have implemented was a kind of chaos strat. We had an IC that was giving ok reads at best but even when he had some scum we left him alive. this caused a doubt in his reads as repeatedly town kept coming up and we killed any town that might have been a stabilizing influence to the game. It spiraled into enough pressure that he ultimately made nothing but iffy calls at best while the rest of town sheeped the IC. I mentioned in an earlier post to meuh a few things about it like me giving some IIOA lists that I hid behind and that I had played the "Am new here, am smooth brained, plz disregard" card. of course, unlike meuh I did those on D2 and D3, when such things should be more severe. but luckily by D3 the pressure on IC was pretty much overloaded. Was a fun game, and we did manage to keep IC to the end.
looking back a lot of things fell into place a lot better than it should have, D1 eliminated all non-Vigi power roles of a JOAT and Bp townie.

so....how does me talking about this help with the current game? wouldn't it be better to get my meta/impression of the game from the actual topic?

@Krazy: Your 433 resonated with me a little, but I had been thinking more that his tone was somewhere between angry and annoyed. I figured, given he'd only played a single game, that maybe he was frustrated to have rolled scum a second time. So I wanted to get a sense of his first game to see how he talked about it. This response isn't strong, but I generally get the feeling that he had fun, so my theory doesn't really hold water. I guess if he's scum he could be annoyed that he doesn't get to try town.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So I was looking at these progressions:

Marci:

238 she says "But i do agree that 2nd isnt a good vote. To me, 2nd seems like an easy push and i don't rlly see much wrong about them, (tho everyones saying tone??)" and then indicates she'd be ok with a Meuh elim, but just unvotes Kazyan.

241 she jokes about being a Chosen partner and says Chosen's ISO just feels like a lurker's ISO, not a mafia one.

257 is a weird senpai to Harumi that feels really out of place.

259 she says "harumi is who i thinks most scum so ill vote that then, but i dont want to vote anyone else, im not confident in anyone else being scum." and votes Harumi.

261 she reiterates the "not confident in Harumi, but seems scummiest" and also reiterates why she doesn't think Chosen is scum.

266, 278, 279 are all dedicated to defending Chosen from Krazy.

289 is more "Chosen not scum" and saying she wants to sort Chosen D2.

303 is a response to Meuh about Chosen.

379 is responses to me about Chosen.

452 responds to a Krazy question about Chosen, and responds to Harumi's accusation that Marci is "skittish and defensive". The next post we get is:

What are your thoughts on me right now?

Still think ur scummy you dont feel like a town whos trying to prove their innocence.

@Marci: Since your vote on Harumi in 259 you haven't moved your vote, but you also, unless I missed something, haven't talked about Harumi other than just recently asking them about finding you skittish. You've used a lot of words to talk about why you don't think Chosen is scum, but don't seem to be trying to figure Harumi out at all. Why not?

I don''t hhave any thoughts on chosens alignment rn..

I HATE TYPING SO MUCH I BY ACCIDENT DELETED SOMETHING I WROTE.

I think harumis overall more scummy by how often they post and their word choices. Meanwhile I choose to believe Chosens excuse of being busy because i think its genuine based on how its worded.

I think thats what i wrote

She makes that statement (large text/color highlighting mine) in response to me asking why she's spent all her time defending Chosen and not attacking Harumi. This is after literally the last six posts she made were talking about Chosen.

Until I looked at the ISO, I didn't realize how constant the defense was, which certainly could point to Marci being scumbuddies with Chosen, but I noticed something when I looked at Harumi's posts:

Harumi:

61 is their early reads list, has Chosen as null (to be expected at that point, not even sure Chosen had posted yet).

304 is really the next time they have any focused discussion on him, within the context of chainsaw defenses and a possible Meuh/Chosen team. They say they're going to look at Chosen and a few minutes later they post:

2nd hasn't posted as much as Meuh, but it's hard for me to point out anything specifically wrong with them. I'm just getting a bad feeling regarding them, like they're not being sincere.
So I'm going to VOTE: Meuh for now, but 2nd is going on my PoE.

So nothing specific, but a "bad feeling".
The next post they make in the game (150-ish posts later), Chosen has moved back to null (and gets one of the two explanations), and Marci gets the other one:

This might come off as a tad evasive but it's a bit difficult to do a full iso read when five pages show up overnight

My rough readlist would have to be as follows:

{Krazy}
{Kazyan}
{alisae, cantripmancer, italiano, 2ndchosen} - I know I said I didn't like 2nd but I took another look and I've decided I might have been suffering from confirmation bias. Still a null for me though.
{Marcistar} - bit skittish and defensive which I don't like, but it's probably a playstyle thing so eh.
{meuh}

453 they start questioning Marci attacking them.

587 they are "kinda starting to loosen up" on Meuh because Meuh's posts have been productive, and Marci gets a vote.

591 they say their suspicions on Chosen were "probably just [theirself] rather than anything actually scummy from [Chosen]".


So here's what I'm seeing: both Marci and Harumi start off null/townlean on Chosen. Marci white knights him the whole way (rather obsessively), while Harumi briefly entertains him as scum before putting him back to null. And they're attacking each other and cross-voting. So my hot-take is that they're buddies and sensing Chosen as a likely elim and both looking for some "told ya so" town cred when he flips town while also establishing some distancing from each other.

Of course, I know that my hot-takes often end up being tepid, so this really only matters if Chosen flips town.

Marci's obsession with defending Chosen is pretty constant, which makes me think if Chosen is scum, there's a good chance Marci is a buddy. But the

tone

I'm getting from Marci is pretty pure. So I don't really want to eliminate Marci at this point.

So I'm down to eliminate Chosen or Harumi, with slight preference for Chosen because I think it'll be a good info elim either way.

Thanks for the reassurance, Krazy, but my homesite is structured around E-2 being the "hold yer horses" point, and I can't quite override that instinct. Too many experiences with rash hammers (from both alignments). Consider my vote on Chosen for the time being until we decide we want to move forward.

Question: Is mafia daychat the standard on this site? Or more common than not?

[Cantripmancer]

Oh, and I was just handed a work project that is going to keep me busier than usual, so I may not post much between now and tomorrow evening. I'll try to keep up with reading, though.

[Cantripmancer]

You never answered my question about 285: Are you familiar with Too Scummy to Be Scum (or Too Wolfy to Be Wolf)?

Yeah I’m familiar with it, but it’s a fallacy for me. I rely on Occam’s Razor as much as possible.

It's a fallacy as in, you rarely/never see mafia acting wolfy intentionally to invoke that concept?

In 347 you said you were going to go back and try to show me what you meant on Chosen/Krazy; did you do that/can you if you didn't?

Yup, was waiting for someone to ask me.

So I was specifically talking about chosen’s 143 post.

Now compare that post to his 215 post.

Notice the difference in tone? Maybe you do, maybe you don’t, but I did.

I hadn't noticed, but I see what you're talking about.

I never responded to this when you said it last time, but I made a note to do so; my bad. Simple, I was catching up and was going in order of the things that stood out to me. Your vote was just first on the list. You can look back at the sequence of posts if you don’t think so.

Actually I looked back at it myself and saw that it wasn’t in fact in order. Oh well.

It sounds like you really believed that you had just responded to things in order, so + for sincerity.

Try not to ogi yourself town by asking publicly about daychat trip, ask the mod by pm stuff like that

Oop, my bad. Yeah, I'm used to just asking questions to the mod in-thread. I'll be better about that.

Question: Is mafia daychat the standard on this site? Or more common than not?

can you explain why you asked this actually, like were you imagining some sort of PT communication with Marci or Harumi?

Yeah, I haven't had a chance to go back and sift through the timeline, but I suspect that the defense of Chosen from Marci/Harumi started about the time it began to look likely that Chosen was going to be the elim. Just trying to figure out if they would have been able to coordinate the idea behind the scenes.

I feel good about Trip, the one concern is just how long it took him to case Italiano and the kinda slowness in moving back to pushing someone else. If he's scum I guess he's working very hard to present towniness so I appreciate that, but *often* he is just town here, and I really liked 140 still

Bit of self-meta, so I'm sure you'll take it with a grain of salt, but taking a while to case Italiano is NAI for me. I tend to have very specific times that I can participate, and all too often I end up having time for

only

catching up and responding, with no opportunity to pursue the analysis I want to do. Similarly, anyone who's played with me as scum knows that I'm perfectly capable of putting in the effort, so me "working very hard" is pretty much NAI, too.

.... if you regard your reads list as shitty and barebones, why was the other readslist also shitty and barebones? where is your non shitty and non barebones reads list?

This was almost literally the thought I had.

Waiting on the claim that was comin' comin'
Waiting on the role to come to light
Can't move ahead too soon; we're all waitin' on you
Waiting on the claim, yeah, yeah
- With apologies to Milli Vanilli

[Cantripmancer]

@Harumi: No comment on my hot take? Is Chosen going to flip town?

[Cantripmancer]

No FN result here.

I feel like there's a good chance that the last scum is in Harumi/Marci, but I want to do some rereading when I can actually take some time later tonight.

[Cantripmancer]

Alright Marci read time

I've played an online mafia game with Marci where she was mafia before, and from what I can gather from that game (and to some degree from her town games too), Marci is the type of player who would try very hard to keep their partner or herself alive. Marci in those games seemed to view short term gain (mafia with more numbers) as more valuable than long term gain (mafia members not associating, keeping the mafia townread). In the game, she almost got eliminated, but survived to the end of the day by fakeclaiming a PR role. That fakeclaim, while it allowed for a miselim, left the mafia a lot more obvious, and we were elimed on the next few days.(

That loss was also partly my fault but that's besides the point

So what does this mean? I think it means Marci would be reluctant to push for her partner if it put her at any serious risk which is why I think Harumi/Marci is pretty unlikely. Also I think that Marci might try to push to save her partner, even to a point where it might be obviously scummy like she could be doing here, protecting 2nd. If 2nd is elimed and flips scum, I think there's a lot to look into with Marci.

I'm pretty conflicted on Marci honestly, the general vibes are townlike, but the whole reaction to 2nd is just... off, it's weird. It feels like she's both distancing from 2nd and also pushing hard to get votes off of him, and those 2 things feel conflicting.

Marci you better not be scum I wanted us to carry

I think Marci is very likely our scum here, although like others have said, Harumi and Cantrip are also fairly likely

Very possible and on top of that, I didn't see anything from kazyan that made it seem like he was a pr (which is probably the main reason for his nightkill) so I'll be trying to sort that as well.

What do you think of it? @Alisae @krazy @Harumi @Marci @Cantrip what are your thoughts on the night kill?

Sorry all, I have a really bad headache and I'm off to bed. Will post more tomorrow.

[Cantripmancer]

I'm at:

Krazy
Alisae
Meuh
ItalianoVD
Harumi/Marci

I feel like Marci is more likely to be buddies with Chosen from her content, but her tone seems far purer than Harumi's. I tend to value tonal reads over Marci's TSTBS content, so I'd lean towards eliminating Harumi first, I think.

Still haven't had enough time to really review D1, but if we have enough eliminations regardless, I'd rather just go Harumi and then dig deeper if she flips town.

[Cantripmancer]

Sorry for my lack of contribution; work has been overwhelming.

If I need to be eliminated first, then so be it, but don't just snap-eliminate toMorrow. I don't want to lose this game because everyone feels we've got it in the bag.

For now, I'll go ahead and

VOTE: Harumi

and hope that I have time later tonight to actually review and contribute meaningfully.

[Cantripmancer]

"For no explanation whatsoever"

Both you and Marci defended Chosen D1; I feel like there's a solid chance that one of the two of you are his partner. I detailed my hot take in 602[/[post]. Marci's response in [post]625 would be pretty cheeky for scum to make, and, like I said, I've felt like her tone has been pure all game.

You, on the other hand, never even responded to my thoughts about you and Marci being scum, even when I called you out on it. Obviously I was wrong that the two of you were the team, but it certainly felt like you were avoiding me associating you with Chosen. Why no response?

[Cantripmancer]

Bollocks'd that up. :/

602

625

[Cantripmancer]

*hug*

I'm really enjoying and have enjoyed everyone in this game

Sorry probably random

/barn

Both you and Marci defended Chosen D1; I feel like there's a solid chance that one of the two of you are his partner. I detailed my hot take in 602[/[post]. Marci's response in [post]625 would be pretty cheeky for scum to make, and, like I said, I've felt like her tone has been pure all game.

They voted though. To me you refusing to use the one power you have as townie, which is your vote, and at the deadline, looks worse than them just not voting for Chosen because they still at least used their vote.

I can understand where you're coming from, but FWIW (self-meta, so yeah), being cautious with my vote outside of early D1 is pretty standard for me. Also:

Thanks for the reassurance, Krazy, but my homesite is structured around E-2 being the "hold yer horses" point, and I can't quite override that instinct. Too many experiences with rash hammers (from both alignments). Consider my vote on Chosen for the time being until we decide we want to move forward.

After that, I was either waiting on a claim or waiting on responses from Marci/Harumi before proceeding.

[Cantripmancer]

Yeah Cantrip I would say that your other-site-meta caution around E-2 is fine, the bigger concern is that we can see from the Kazyan vote that the scum were worried that given how the EoD played out it was too obvious that Chosen thought he was going to have some more time, so either the buddy was already bussing (possible but I can't point to who), or the buddy was off-wagon and wanted to give Chosen some time to make his 'claim gambit' of backpedaling to VT. This make your 'unvote with intention to hammer' the more concerning position because you were one of the slots Chosen could have counted on to 'give him some time' to play out the claim gambit backpedaling to VT. Basically I can see why people are concerned about your slot given EoD even though I feel like I've gone back and forth on your slot a lot between the two dayphases. I think it would help if you could map out how you conceptualize the strategy at this point as you see it for someone like Harumi or Marci from a scum POV, given Alisae seems to think Harumi isn't playing with an endgame in mind (a kind of variation on "too scummy to be scum" a sentiment I don't necessarily agree with but which is maybe worth considering)

I don't blame anyone being concerned about my slot; I just know the game doesn't end with my death, so I'd rather elim elsewhere. And I'm not seeing any agenda or strategy from Marci (that's part of why she comes off to me as pure). Harumi feels like they're slow rolling their opinions, refusing to respond to my questions (but obviously seeing my posts), and OMGUSing. I don't know that Harumi

has

a strategy; if they see that they're in the PoE and the PoE is small enough to be entirely eliminated before they can control the vote, then that might explain them not seeming to be playing with an endgame in mind: they don't know what to do to achieve the win.

[Cantripmancer]

@Marci @Cantrip @Harumi

Have any of you/all of you played scum on this site before?

Nope, but you're welcome to my game history: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing if that'll help.

[Cantripmancer]

Just realized that's not quite up-to-date, but I don't have time to update it right now. It should still give you plenty of points of reference.

@Krazy: I've been pretty frustrated with how my real life commitments have picked up suddenly, so the slower pace is somewhat welcome to me since I'd have a hard time keeping up with a frenzy. Pace isn't something I generally read too much into, knowing how easily my own is impacted.

[Cantripmancer]

I don't have time for anything else, but saw the request and I agree I should claim: I'm VT.

[Cantripmancer]

Feeling like I made the right call feeling Marci as town. I don't think scum!Marci stares at those three juicy votes on me and resists hammering.

It's ok, Marci. If you want to vote me just to move on with the game, go ahead. I would completely understand, and no hard feelings as long as you get scum toMorrow.

[Cantripmancer]

how do you feel about ali cantrip?

I feel like if there's a deep wolf, it's Ali over you, but generally, I'm pretty sure they're town.

I may have a chance to do some diving tonight, but if I'm just going to get eliminated, I'd rather not make the effort for no reason, so if someone's going to hammer, please make it sooner rather than later.

[Cantripmancer]

Yeah, and like, I didn't see Harumi slightly townspewing herself by accidentally sabotaging her towncred by moving chosen to null when he was at f-1 until like my fourth reread. That's a very subtle thing though. That thing where you put me in your readslist twice was so townie... lmao, like you did have some very townie posts this game

I do think you needed some "big town energy" near EoD though, like if your attitude is "oh I'm gonna get hammered so I'm not going to try to case harumi" kinda meant no one had a lot of motivation to move off you. This is not a game that was lost due to you being scummy, this was a game that was lost due to town finding town, which is generally the reason *scum games should be lost* if you're going to lose a scum game. It's for that reason that playing scum is hard, imo.

Yeah, this game suffered from--as far too many of my games do--real life preventing me from participating as I needed to. I *knew* that I needed a hard push against Harumi (or something similar) to gain some town pants, but I just didn't have time. :/ My rule number 1 for playing scum: Don't be lazy. But rl commitments meant I couldn't bring my full force to bear.

Not that pulling a Harumi elim would have saved my bacon, not staring down two more eliminations, but I've never been much of a quitter.

if I survived D1 IVD was on my list of people needing to gotten rid of, wouldn't have gone down the SE list, but last game I got a lotta success from hitting those who simply did good deductive/stabilizing posts. there needs more paranoia and tin foil hatting

It usually takes me a while but once I can get my bearings I can figure things out fairly good.

@Cantrip: we’re you trying to get people to follow you onto me why you stuck with me so long?

Nah, that's pretty standard for town!me to park on a player until I have valid reason to move. And I was still 'trying to figure you out', so...

@Chosen, sorry I didn't kill Krazy N1 like you suggested. I placeholdered Kazyan for the mason crumb, meaning to review and change if I didn't feel it strongly enough, but came back to the thread an hour too late. Thanks for scumming with me!

@Everyone: Thanks for the enjoyable game. Sorry if my low participation resulted in frustration.