Warehouse 13: The Mafia Game (Game Over)

[borkjerfkin]

good news everyone

floor is mostly done and got a few before i pass out

Hi bork, you should have received a flavor claim from me overnight. Please confirm, and do with it what you will.

Got exactly one thing that I don't expect to have, yes, although no indication where I got it from.
Are you the character pictured w/ that item if I look it up on the wiki?

If so it's adorable you picked me considering my own flavor

[borkjerfkin]

Random question for you Bork well two:

1) Is the character presented with the item a lady or a man or nonbinary?
2) What’s the negative consequence of the item?

1) I struggle to see how this is relevant to the game at large
2) contextually either minorly inconvenient or innocuous

[borkjerfkin]

Bork review the negative again and think, it's extremely useful as a counter to a certain role

I'm sorry if I'm being dense but I'm trying to think of the positive utility of what you're talking about other than "unable to get snowed by Cabd in the purple room this time"

[borkjerfkin]

Those aren’t direct answers.
There are lots of characters on the show. Surely a gender won’t give it away. I had a reason when I thought it was a soft but if you guess the wrong gender or something like that then the jig is up without exposing Prism in case they’re town.

Not really interested in doing a mech test on this right now. I have the thing and and can confirm it if it really needs to happen and I'm not convinced it does atm

[borkjerfkin]

I'm operational again

The only thing I have to say about the artifact before I start catching up in earnest:

I am pretty sure Prism started w/ it and this is not the scum artifact
If Prism is in fact Helena, as I surmised when I went to

a

wiki page for the artifact (I ended up on some roleplay site accidentally, and not the official wiki which i didn't realize at the time: https://warehouse14roleplay.fandom.com/ ... an_Trident)

I believe this for a number of reasons but I think one that should be accessible to everyone is that if it's the scum artifact, it'd be pretty coincidental that it popped up N0 and happened to match a claim available to the scumteam rather than what Prism claimed to have happened. This doesn't make Prism town but this is more than likely what happened.

The negative effect of the artifact is basically a non-issue.
I may pass it to someone else anyway. Who knows?

I'm kind of townreading the engagement from Math on it: 226 / 236 seems like Math is excited to potentially catch someone in a lie about it, and the fact that it's not a particularly well thought out idea I don't think should take away from that.

back in a little bit

[borkjerfkin]

The problem I have with that Bork is no negative side to an artifact that is world destroying is kinda not believable.

don't know what to tell you, and unless you think prism and i are scum together then you're going to have to accept that show flavor and mechanical flavor are not going to be congruent

The reason I've been keeping this close to my chest is 1) it's really, really not a big deal and 2) i don't really feel the need to trade exposed information for any sort of perceived cred from you. I get your angle - it's just not going to go anywhere useful here and I'm trying to tell you that.

If you really, really want to fucking keep it real here then fine, say so and I'll out the negative effect in my next post just so we can move on.

Bell is one of the few people I'm comfortable reading from tone / level of engagement / sense of direction and he's being pretty town here.

Don't like titus 656

[borkjerfkin]

We're actually a little more worried about bork, sight unseen, getting the Minoan Trident N0 than LLD getting Lucrezia's comb.

i'm trying to think of something cheeky but mostly just hi. I liked your 279

you don't have to worry about the artifact or me at all this game.

Were you townreading LLD before the mason claim?

[borkjerfkin]

This feels ugly. I want that on the record. If Dunn isn’t scum I want Titus and Cakez and maaaaybe one of LLD or Prism.

don't really like the willingness to be on here but grumbling about it. There's no real pressure to be on a compromise elim at this point in the day.

i'm not prepared to make a judgment call on what that means about dunn but i don't like it from math

[borkjerfkin]

I would have been null on LLD before the claim just based on wanting to take time and observe more after the Tenet game.

I hope so, and if it's a true claim I'm ecstatic, because I think we both had times in Tenet where we were posting on how LLD was in the upper quadrant of townreads and got super burned there, and I don't really think she's done anything that isn't in line for her MO either alignment pre-claim.

[borkjerfkin]

Totally separate from that dynamic, I hate some of what Dunn's put into the thread, but are a couple of posts I like. :/

yeah, I don't really have much of a read on dunn yet

also HOLY FUCK MOLD

[borkjerfkin]

Spiffeh's push on me seems disingenuous primary in that it came right after GreyICE threw shade on me in a few posts above rather than seemingly organically against anything I actually posted

I feel like the reason I asked about LLD is obvious and explained in the post and going "durr LLD claimed mason of course they think she's town why would you harp on that" seems utterly determined to miss the intent I had: trying to gauge ffery's demeanor on LLD prior to that

GreyICE seems I guess upset I don't have a read on a slot so that can be elaborated upon too at earliest convenience

[borkjerfkin]

bork's scum again it will show pretty quickly because he hates being scum

for serious, i'd probably be feeling the urge to literally sitequit for a year at this point if i rolled scum in this fucking playerlist after all the drain circling that has been my scumplay since i returned

[borkjerfkin]

I don't think scum!Bork can snow ffery this game due to what happened in Tenet.

?

[borkjerfkin]

i mean, i play w/ ffery all the time, trying to find each other early isn't really a new thing for us, and i would definitely make an attempt to engage her as scum as i did in illicit substances, the last game where we had that exact alignment combo, where she kind of sat in my pocket all game to the point that she wouldn't let cabd vote me.

so yeah, a++++ would attempt pocket again

it strikes me that your posts about this aren't really considering the possibility that they're not town

[borkjerfkin]

I still don't really have a good bead on Dunn. The interaction is reasonable w/ Prism, but 715 is not really satisfying as a qualifier for 174

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't realize GreyICE's " " was shade on you until I went back to check what the hell you were talking about, nor would I have really cared if I knew about his shade when writing my post. Do you think I'm unable to create my own pushes and I was just waiting for an opportunity to go after you? Genuine question, what makes my push 'disingenuous' in your eyes rather than just town!me being wrong about you?

Not saying you're unable to create your own pushes, but the heat map generated later in the game once flips have happened gets blurry when that kind of piggybacking happens and it seemed more than coincidental to me that GreyICE posted what he did and all the sudden you had something substantive to say about me.

You came back w/ a response that suggests you legitimately didn't know what I was talking about so i don't want to go any further on that

The LLD question seemed like a throwaway question to capitalize on the chance to buddy ffery. I think there are tons of other more useful things/players you could have engaged her about to get a read on her, but the way you parleyed that into reminiscing about how you both were fooled by LLD in the past seemed like you were prioritizing getting on her good side over actually caring about her thoughts on LLD.

Yeah lol I'd love to reminisce how we got bodied in tenet. thanks for that.
I dunno - it seemed pretty clear from my followup what I was trying to do there.

re: greyice; opening looked pretty town to me, want to see what his response is to my inquiry about downarrow-gate though

[borkjerfkin]

I think I was out to lunch on Spiffeh in 801

860 is really town

[borkjerfkin]

Look how easily they scumread me when I pointed out that they would be the most likely traitor for bringing up traitor for what seems like no reason

you first mentioned traitor (499) after math declared a scumread on you (492)

this just seems like a "math is OMGUSing me" dressed up in something irrelevant, factually untrue or otherwise

[borkjerfkin]

I think Spiffeh town BM scum Prism null LLD scum lean Cakez is prob town but scum in a very minor circumstance so not considering it. If I am right then Titus is town by proxy.

Scummy reads

Probably would've been my guess

[borkjerfkin]

Eg Dunn and Cakez although not voting saying meltdown

I literally can't parse this

[borkjerfkin]

yes, i get that the implication is that they're chainsawing you to protect him. that's heavily dependent on unflipped associations. do you think sangres is scum? You kinda have to for the convenience of this argument, but it also seems like you only do due to perceived (<-- you kinda acknowledged this) waffly takes of sangres about mathblade and that is inherently circular reasoning

on the other hand there's been like a metric fuckton of conversation about mathblade, and you've come out on the side of "this is a concerted effort to protect a buddy" vs "some other people are seeing something different than me" and it's odd that you're just not considering the latter

[borkjerfkin]

It's their justification for voting me

what does it mean then?

[borkjerfkin]

GreyICE is town.

For proof of this see Boonskiies where I was coaching (a little) Cakez. His scum game is getting a lot better than people give credit for.

i don't see how these two relate to each other

[borkjerfkin]

i have a sample size of 1 w/ GreyICE but that was not my experience w/ town GreyICE at all. Can't comment on his scumgame.

Either way that seems like a criminally low bar to set

[borkjerfkin]

Ask math, not me.

But it looks like they are saying that I was saying they were having a meltdown, which is not true. That could also be directed as jsut SirCakez so I'm not really sure.

how is it a reason for math being scum then if you aren't super clear on it either? this is why i was asking you and not him

[borkjerfkin]

Me? I was a mason. I can spend day 1 trolling random people, refuse to give reasoning for my reads, generally annoy people, and make it look like I'm a possible mislynch. I can start a random pissing contest with Deacon Blues, even though I'm 90% on them being town. I was literally lynch-proof (seriously, on day 2 I was confirmed town to 4 of the 10 players. 6 were needed for lynch).

i'm not sure i ever internalized that post when it was originally made. point taken i guess; i still don't love the "town for being reasonable" take as it seems too, sigh, "surface level" in that i find it hard to believe it comes from someone who actually gives a shit about getting the right answer

[borkjerfkin]

3: I believe Prism's flavor claim of being HG Wells--I do not believe HG Wells would be a VT.

5: I believe the flavor claim of being HG Wells--I do not believe that makes the claim town. Everyone who watched the show probably remembers how HG Wells ended up, as a retired warehouse agent more or less...but did they forget that HG Wells spent an entire season as THE series Big Bad? Whose opening episode on the show was killing the series' long-established Big Bad? Not out of heroism, but to show how she was eviler and more insane than the first Big Bad? (Whole, sorting algorithm of evil, thing; she killed the previous big bad to show that she was a worse threat than the previous big bad.)

these arguments strain the bounds of credulity

you've been on this site for how long? you know how flavor -> role mapping generally works in that it's not usually reverse engineered with that kind of brush

I haven't seen the show but from the wiki it seems like she had a redemption arc and developed an emotional/pseudo-romantic bond with certain main character so that character goes in the bucket of "things town gets / scum gets as fakeclaims" and not "things scum gets"

[borkjerfkin]

Trident is a targeted day-phase PT blocker. The negative effect is it blocks your own PT usage the following night.

Confirming this is all accurate, although there's another aspect to it as well that limits it.

I'd not have gotten to the "possibly dodges the PT cop" thing you were trying to guide me to pick on, frankly, as not being able to post in the PT doesn't equate to not a member of it, to me, but not super germane at this point.

[borkjerfkin]

I was willing to instantly perform a mechanical flavor claim to another player is alignment indicative.

My take on it is that it's considerably less likely that you're not HG and happened to have access to the trident at start of game and the HG fakeclaim, than you're just who you say you are.

I think HG would be town in this setup just due to her being kind of a heel-face kind of villain.

[borkjerfkin]

math is trying to solve a puzzle and the pieces are coming together (albeit in a way that i'm not super following the verbiage of) and is probably town

[borkjerfkin]

strong town read on day one of tenet (due to ffery sorry Bork)

different strokes

skitter said the opposite

[borkjerfkin]

If flavor determines what artifacts you start with wouldn't flavor claiming be bad?

publicly, maybe, but that's not how prism opened the game until pressure dictated a change of tactic, and as we all found out nothing of high value was really leaked

[borkjerfkin]

artifacts

plural?

[borkjerfkin]

she saved Myka

can't be all that bad then huh mastina?

[borkjerfkin]

she tried to save math from getting himself elimmed. unless they're both scum (in which case, let's do math first), she didn't need to do that as scum.

this is both factually untrue and weak as shit as a reason

[borkjerfkin]

is in fact currently voting math

[borkjerfkin]

Ask math, not me.

But it looks like they are saying that I was saying they were having a meltdown, which is not true. That could also be directed as jsut SirCakez so I'm not really sure.

how is it a reason for math being scum then if you aren't super clear on it either? this is why i was asking you and not him

How come math is allowed to say things that don't make sense and get away with it with nobody asking what it means?

And also not answer for it

I don't think 'not making sense' should be the basis for a scumread, and I feel like we're still talking past each other or you're making a deliberate attempt not to understand my inquiries

I don't care about this post in a bubble - it's not really a part of my read - but you obviously do because you brought it up; how does it factor into your math scumread enough for you to have mentioned it to me in 865

[borkjerfkin]

@mod: vc plz when you're able

[borkjerfkin]

Unless you're scum with Prism, which I doubt, I feel like your game-design thoughts look pretty town.

It makes more sense to me than your spec in Illicit did. I hope I'm not setting my feet on the garden path here.

It should be clear that my bunk-ass (at least, that's how I felt in my anxiety-ridden notes PT) flavor spec in Illicit was done w/ the specific intent to miselim a particular and incredibly strong PR claim.

This isn't even in the same universe of a situation; why would I have to be scum w/ Prism to present this opinion as scum?

[borkjerfkin]

i'm not bothering w/ figuring out pooky today; that experience on D2 was frustrating as hell in tenet and we should've pull the trigger on him at least on D4 or so and is probably my biggest regret that game, but I expect pooky to become more sortable later in the game in ways that i don't feel inclined to elaborate on at the moment

[borkjerfkin]

Same applies to Prism: why can't Prism, as scum, with a scum flavor of HG Wells, yet a fakeclaim of (some random character), decide "screw claiming (some random character), I wanna claim HG Wells because I know flavorwise that's plausibly town"?
Why can't Prism, as scum, with a scum flavor of HG Wells (during her tenure as a villain), have a legit fakeclaim of...HG Wells, during her tenure as a hero?

Prism has already admitted to being familiar with the flavor and knowing that their claim is not one that is, inherently, town.

And from mechanical clues combined with indicators from play

, I think that this is a scum claim. I recognize why it could be town, but the circumstantial clues point to it being scum.

Nobody is saying prism

can't

be scum because of HG. And yeah sure I guess HG could be a legit scum role with the fakeclaim of the same character, fine. I've certainly done this in my setups once or twice (Xenoblade, Lunar). But that possibility doesn't make it a scum claim without allowing for the massive flipping of the burden of proof you're doing

And you could've just said that but instead you went off on this weird "but she's a villllllllllain" tangent to show why prism is necessarily scum in the here and now

like if the bolded is the true you could just leave out all the other circumstantial shit and just post why you think that

[borkjerfkin]

@Bork, what are your thoughts on stuff?

stuff that you particularly commented on here, off the cuff:

Game is starting to get a little drowned out by non-AI chest thumping but:

Still think Math is town; what do you mean by "Trollish" - reading this as more "I'm continually slighted by LLD; what can I even do here?" and am not bothered by it
I actually like everything from Dunn 1125+
Agree w/ Prism town and don't really see anything that suggests otherwise in that body of work. Whatever, Prism could probably run circles around me if they wanted but I'm just not seeing the angles of attack that some others are making; seems breadth focused, analytic, bristly when attacked for the wrong reasons, pretty much everything I saw in 2181.
I think Cakez is town?; I noted that he called out Prism's read on me in particular as something that he disagreed with, but had me in null, and was looking for another spot where he and Prism differed in a more profound way and couldn't really find one. is poking at stones mostly ignored by others.
Don't really like anything Mastina has posted so far, esp wrt that flavor angle
Don't like any of Titus' voting patterns esp wrt Mathblade.
Don't really like Battle Mage's stance around Titus and Math or Dunn.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Titus

[borkjerfkin]

Bork flavor argument is useless do something productive

That's not a very fair representation of my angle.

Mastina's making a really shallow argument and I don't like it. It just happens to be about flavor.

[borkjerfkin]

Bork flavor argument is useless do something productive

That's not a very fair representation of my angle.

Mastina's making a really shallow argument and I don't like it. It just happens to be about flavor.

[borkjerfkin]

thank you.
i would sig that if i weren't committed to the beefycheese.

i might anyway.

[borkjerfkin]

i comprehend.

I was in walking dead but replaced out when i got miserable (and i think my slot was NKed that night anyway) - what about mastina from walking dead is relevant here wrt her scum game in general?

[borkjerfkin]

Excuse me, but am I the only one unsettled by the fact Bork has not mentioned Titus once prior to Ffery interaction and then humped jumped on after I voted.

my vote had nothing to do w/ yours other than it put it in the forefront of my mind, and I was already considering going there. Was the only one of the wagons here I feel comfortable being on both by my read on the slot itself and my reads on its members

[borkjerfkin]

god i fucking sucked in walking dead

anyway, i appreciate the reachout as that has helped me center myself and figure out where i wanted to be.

Can you summarize nacho's conflicting take?

[borkjerfkin]

Do you mean his take on Mastina? Nacho hasn't seen any of Mastina's content posts afaik and doesn't have a take there yet, which is why I'm in a holding pattern on her, despite my scumread. Nacho's been too busy with work since Monday night to do more than acknowledge some of the posts I've linked from this game and apologize for not having time for games atm.

yeah, and nvm i misunderstood then, i misconstrued the "nacho's ability to read Mastina" as a "nacho is currently townreading mastina" and not the "nacho isn't engaged" that it was.

oh:

We need to do more of this.

winky face

[borkjerfkin]

Don't care if I get yeeted. This game is a town loss. There's no cohesion or ability to get it thanks to the stupid post restriction.

really don't like this justification for "lack of cohesion"; we're maybe kinda sorta flirting with the limit but i doubt we'll reach it.

[borkjerfkin]

Even so, I like this pace. I feel like everyone should be able to keep up with the game and if we do have replacements it won't be a Sisyphean ordeal to get into the game.

said this much better than i could. i started out two days behind but i've never felt like it's been a chore to catch up here

[borkjerfkin]

Dunn is still my desired lim but no one seems to care that much and it's not helpful to keep screaming into the void.

there are a couple things in the 11xx range and some interactions that is just making me not want to go here today.

[borkjerfkin]

Here I think he got outright overwhelmed and intimidated by the strength of the table as scum

I agree that he's playing this differently than the newbie y'all were in from some brief reading after it ended when the Discord was singing your praises, but the fact that this is an inactivity replace we're dealing w/ and not an actual replace out, and also considering that quiet's only really active period in this game was over a course of two days, I think muddies the waters considerably.

I don't see a world where I wouldn't want to give that slot a day.

[borkjerfkin]

My townread on Titus is strong enough that I am willing to take some heat off of her onto myself to save her.

Why? your early reads list had her in a tier2 with a tier1 that was a list of a lot of people. What happened between that and 1541

[borkjerfkin]

SirCakez, Mathblade, Spiffeh, Titus

the fuck are you doing off the titus wagon at this point in the game if you legitimately think this

I'm just getting the vibe from 1455 that titus wants to talk more about the reads that aren't legitimate scumreads (math, lld) than the people she's actually scumreading other than cakez. a lot of those other scumreads are heavily laced with plausible deniability

cakez/quiet take seems much ado about nothing to me; i thought cakez' point was pretty salient, that people attacking quiet are kind of doing it recently and therefore more relating to the lack of activity and less about really the content; titus should want to flip quiet here and not cakez because that entire point is predicated on cakez defending a buddy

[borkjerfkin]

Cakez is the only real scumread of hers. I no longer think talking about the two players she's hated playing with all game is that AI from what we've seen.

It's just a really easy thing to talk about because it's inherently NAI to do so and is the sort of thing i might do if i felt short on opinions as scum

I know that titus is stating that cakez is the only true scumread she has, but again that seems predicated by the scumflip of another slot that she isn't sure is scum (because her argument is that cakez is trying to deflect away from an inactive buddy), which also seems like a weird thing to think.

there are some other progressions here i don't like such as saying tammy's fall behinds are NAI (1268) and then proceeding to scumread tammy for not doing anything for a while (1455) despite having a townread there earlier

[borkjerfkin]

Come up with an actual case if you want to prove you are town.

i fucking hate this statement. "you might be town if you're able to effort a big wall about me"?

who thinks like this?

p-edit: what is suddenly so indicative of town-titus all the sudden here? I'm really having trouble with a lot of the movement here since it doesn't seem predicated on recent play, and is therefore more likely to be part of a deliberate effort by scum to move the wagon toward cakez or mastina out of thread since i'm just not seeing anything in-thread organically that should be causing that

[borkjerfkin]

i'm not going anywhere near the cakez wagon regardless

[borkjerfkin]

mastina

basically where you do, would vote more due to the digging in heels on the flavor spec thing and not doing much else, but i still think titus is more likely scum

[borkjerfkin]

but i'm more spooked by the last minute shift here than anything else because titus is just sitting there, mastina is MIA, and yet there's momentum

[borkjerfkin]

If you're talking about the recent votes on mastina, who specifically are you spooked by on that wagon?

Honestly? Everyone except Bell and Battle Mage because they weren't interested in Titus to begin with:

any of
Sangres 1716
Prism 1725
your 1831

Feel to me like they could possibly be stay-off-my-buddy votes just because none of them have any real "I've changed my mind about Titus" to them, and if mastina flips green there basically has to be scum in there

[borkjerfkin]

This feels like scum trying to attack a townblock and knows mastina is town.

meanwhile:

1. sangres (hydra of fferyllt and Nachomamma8) - Null (their reachout sole reason

2. Tammy - gtmh scum, nothing done since midmorning
3. borkjerfkin - gtmh town
4. SirCakez - scum
5. Kitty Trauma Team (hydra of Malakittens and kuribo) - town
6. Lady Lambdadelta - can go eat rocks, anti-town
7. mastina - gtmh null
8. Bell - town
9.

Spiffeh - lean town, could be whitenighting

10. GreyICE* - gtmh town
11. PookyTheMagicalBear - town
12. Titus
13. MathBlade - needs death
14. quiet - lurker scum

15. Prism - meh

16. Dunnstral - sheeping this from Spiffeh so scum
17. Battle Mage - town

your reads on people in the "townblock i am attacking"

[borkjerfkin]

The people you're suggesting as scum are all widely townread.

Do I really have to point out the cog-dis of "I don't townread all these people and that's fine but since

you've

presented a situation where there might be scum in that group it's scummy"?

Does your read being outdated somehow make that ok?

[borkjerfkin]

can't wait to die because in some episode of some random SyFy show this Steve dude did something that was not related to artifact detection

this post rang really fucking town for me

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: mastina

[borkjerfkin]

Don't really think there's anything wrong w/ Tammy and Cakez role in the game together

one of the roles detects usage, one detects possession; as one gets stronger the other gets weaker

[borkjerfkin]

Why not use it on Bork?

actually yeah, do this so we can put this trident shit to rest

[borkjerfkin]

[borkjerfkin]

I don't know what to think of bork right now. I'm not leaving this game day with a townread, and that's extremely disturbing.

I'll be around more after my class is over, but did this happen to start when i said that your post could come from scum? Because this is the first I've heard of that kind of sentiment from you.

Like I'm sorry but wagon movement has been extremely weird in the latter half of this day and a town flip on mastina here, especially if Titus flips scum later on in the game, puts that under scrutiny for me.

Explain to me why that's unreasonable.

[borkjerfkin]

My notes PT has a bunch of hidden Bork murderous intent.

I legitimately don't know where I went wrong today then but this just ain't that game

[borkjerfkin]

Like you can see how FF and I are all nervous and unsure of ourselves rethinking a bunch, hesitating and leaning a little on each other. But you don't seem to have that unsurety. You see a thing and you give a take.

my last really substantive post was how i was wary about getting on the mastina wagon earlier despite scumreading her for the meta argument.

overall though, this isn't the point in the game where i'm willing to be afraid of my own shadow, and part i think of why i was so unsuccessful in tenet was the amount of internal dithering i did, and almost like clockwork, i "got weird" on multiple slots just because i hadn't given them scrutiny in a while, causing me to kind of churn to myself and eventually give up on a resolution, avoid moving anywhere, and as a result ended up an observer at a lot of pivotal moments.

That might be coming across as my being cavalier about how the flow of this game is going, but honestly my stress level is a lot lower for it

[borkjerfkin]

Vote:LLD

Feed me Artefact please.

Also... did anyone have their roles roleblocked last night? confirmably?

unfortunately i have no way of knowing

i'll explain later but *sadface*

[borkjerfkin]

Can we just skip to the turbo elim Dunn or Titus part?

i think my scumread of titus goes way down yesterday considering the mastina flip at first glance

a lot of people had somewhat underexplained reasons to swap from titus to mastina late-ish in the day, and that likely means that at least one person did that because of an alignment indicative reason

[borkjerfkin]

I think sangres not leaving Day 1 with a townread on bork is alarming something we need to significantly explore today.

the way you are phrasing this seems weirdly sensationalist to me. lots of people get weird on people for lots of reasons, esp early game. pretty sure ffery said something similar about tammy as well but you don't seem the least bit concerned about that.

[borkjerfkin]

i really don't feel the "math is so impossible to play with that we've just got to policy him" and it's making me think Titus (or Prism, but I townread prism independently of this and I can kinda see Prism doing this) is scum again

I feel a little better about Battle Mage in the wake of his recent posts and the progression on pooky -> math feels pretty organic to me

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not wowed by DGB's entrance but I think there is once scum at most in Dunn/DGB considering Dunn's just constant reminder that although the slot has basically been inert that it really should just be "dying today, guys, like we agreed to"

[borkjerfkin]

What I don’t like about Bork was the deflection shade he threw in ffery at end of day yesterday, he accused ffery of not town reading him because he called her out at end if day. I made a post about it yesterday and then deleted it because I also had some concern of ffery fake paranoia-ing me

I mean, you just kind of acknowledged the exact issue I had (although I had it in the context of a mastina townflip which didn't happen) and the timing happened to occur like RIGHT as I mentioned a (potential for) me reexamining that wagon jump later.

Even so, after the scumflip I felt bad about it, and trust me, I am finding their death extremely inconvenient right now for reasons we can get into later

[borkjerfkin]

appeasement is coming now
FEAR ME SCUMBEAR

there is a huge elephant in the room about pooky right now that you are utterly ignoring. Why?

[borkjerfkin]

this is bussing if i ever saw it. also didn't GreyIce agree to kill math last night?

VOTE: mathblade

actually i take it all back i don't like this post and it's probably because i think math is just town

[borkjerfkin]

it should be clear based on my stances at the end of the Day why I am singling him out over Tammy, but instead he tries to discredit my suspicion by deflecting onto Tammy.

@bork, who do you want limmed today and why? On top of everything I've stated above, I feel a lot of your posts today are surface level and I have no idea where your head is at.

I mean, your stances aren't always clear, that's why I'm calling them out and speculating. You latched onto something that I felt was underexplained by them and only now do I have any kind of justification about why you feel this way.

(I don't really want to make this about tammy either but what has she done in particular that screams town besides an early unprovoked claim, because otherwise she's just been kinda there)

My reads probably would sort into:

{LLD, Bell, Prism, Pooky, Math}
{GreyICE, Cakez}
{Spiffeh, Tammy, BM}
{Dunn, Titus, DGB}

All my lower tier stuff explained:
Dunn - my reason for townreading Dunn EOD yesterday evaporated - I actually thought he was the mason partner for LLD, but Dunn's interactions with LLD have made it pretty clear that this isn't the case. Otherwise, his progression on Mathblade kind of left me in a weird spot as I wasn't very satisfied with how it ended but I picked up on what I thought were softs in that I didn't want to pursue it anymore. Would again restate that I doubt Dunn is scum w/ DGB.

Titus - just kinda gross interaction with Mathblade throughout the game. I find it really hard to stomach that someone wants to continually move back to a policy elim when we have a gamestate that really is pretty sane so far. Math also seems pretty transparently town to me. Don't like this version of the Pooky push either - I can more see where Cakez is coming from even if I think he's being dense as fuck about it.

DGB - Dunno, just expecting something other than the entrance I got. Might imply Titus is town if flipped scum but I consider the error bars extremely wide on that. Was hoping to be able to put this higher up when the slot turned over but here we are.

BM - Hard to quantify, just kinda bad vibes with voting patterns crossed with I think an occasional salient post or two. Did kind of get on mastina before it was cool, so maybe that does count for something. I need a reread.

Tammy - Other than the claim there's just not much there for me? A lot of talk about her overall approach and a lot of hypotheticals but not a lot of stuff that I'm reading with like "yeah I can empathize with that take". Her level of effort is reasonably high when she's here but I'm having trouble finding anything concrete that I can latch onto in a lot of her posts.

Spiffeh - Wanted to save you for last because you've done some stuff I like and some stuff I don't. I feel like people who approach with the level of breadth you do are generally town, and yeah you're trying to kick stones around, but your engagement against still seems like someone who decided at the start of day he wanted to push on my slot because of the opening that ffery gave about it and the fact that I'm not hyper engaged at the moment.
Ultimately I was worried about the mastina votes, but that was something I was willing to deal w/ d2 and that flip I think gave me considerable info and is also why I'm not up the people's asses that I said I was going to be up at start of day if mastina were to have flipped town.
Can we drop the 'surface level' buzzword when describing what you actually don't like about my play here? That makes it utterly impossible to read into your motivations for calling me out here and honestly makes me not want to engage at all. Do you disagree with my points? Do you think I am overly simplifying things? Your suspicion is wrong, and pre-2528 based on imo a really simplistic "sangres kinda sorted suspected bork and sangres is now dead" (despite the fact that I was fucking heavily crumbing that I was going to visit them w/ something last night which by the way I fucking did and it sure was fuck wasn't with a kill)

[borkjerfkin]

yeah Prism you have scum in your TRs somewhere
definitely look at BM - I think he slipped past me day 1 and has looked a lot worse today

eh i just think there's too much rage and cussing for me to really get invested. plus we are racking up so many pages and not enough flips. and when i do show up and post stuff, nobody really engages so yeah, hard work.

mmm I don't buy this because we've been in games at this pace before and you've had much more to say

+1 on this; game is fairly civil esp compared to the dumpster fire that was Xenoblade where you were basically that game's Mathblade

[borkjerfkin]

I think it's pretty clear why I'm singling you at

btw this is the kind of qualifier shit I post on my stuff when I'm scum to try and make my stances seem more reasonable and my opponent's seem less so

[borkjerfkin]

appeasement is coming now
FEAR ME SCUMBEAR

there is a huge elephant in the room about pooky right now that you are utterly ignoring. Why?

???????????

Like I'm not looking for confirmation that anyone's a mason, but that's being fucking heavily touted right now and I'd be inclined to look elsewhere today.

[borkjerfkin]

There we go. The answer that says nothing I do on this site fucking matters.

I don’t post fast enough scum.

I post too much scum.

I build a town block scum.

I defend masons scum.

I don’t defend masons scum.

It’s always scum or mental illness or bad play shade.

People should pull their heads out of their damn asses and look for scum in Titus/Cakez/Dunn.

Pooky is never the elim and I only am if you make me look ridiculous rather than the calculated strategic anger I have had bottled up inside since this day opened and Titus started with Pooky.

Who is scum in Cakez/Titus/Dunn?

This should really by itself be enough to basically clear Mathblade and yet I think he's still showing up as a leading wagon on d2.
Like I don't care if he's doing shit you don't clearly grok the logic of.
I don't care if he's spamming up the thread.
The raw emotion and fedupedness and even with all that the commitment to engagement instead of just going "okie dokie guess I'll lurk like you wanted me to" should be what you need to just dismantle the fuck out of this wagon indefinitely.

Like I really don't get it at this point in the game.

[borkjerfkin]

(courtesy post so penguin doesn't have to worry):

back tonight, had a pretty shit week so far.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm just gonna work backwards because I'm here now and Tammy posted right to me here:

Bork can you talk about why you have Titus as a scum read now? Yesterday you made it clear that you scum read her, but then at the start of day you kinda moved against it, but are just really focused on the mathblade reasoning. Do you think you can flesh that read out some?

I thought Titus might be town beginning of day because the mastina wagon ended up being on scum, and just the way it built with people quickly switching without much reasoning it smelled of "switching from not-bussing to bussing" to me.

I think more strongly though to me is that Titus went like right back to Mathblade and has kinda just hung out there all day. I also note that her read on me seems mostly commensurate with overall thread feeling about me and not really in relationship to anything I've done.
re: people's reasons for townreading Titus - point to one in particular that we can talk about. I remember Prism saying they thought Titus might be town but I can't find the post right now and if I remember correctly it mostly read as "is being too unbelievably stubborn or dense or something the like" to NOT be town which I just didn't really empathize with when put forward.

Like yeah I'll admit the entire situation needs a reread, and is why I haven't voted there or anywhere today (I've kinda just not been around super much either) I'm just curious as to why you're so focused on that read in particular.

re: Dunn - this was at a point in the game when the Titus wagon was large and the Cakez wagon was not very large and that's a common tactic when scum wants to distance from a partner but not necessarily bus them.

[borkjerfkin]

My claim wasn't really unprompted, I initially thought Cakez and I couldn't exist together but my sense of balance sucks so I thought I'd put it out there for people more adept than me to judge

My response really hasn't changed - I think your roles are anti-synergistic. Why do you think they cannot coexist?

[borkjerfkin]

and really don't understand the angry "I crumbed I was visiting them" as if we're supposed to know that bit.

Not angry at you or anyone for not knowing that, but annoyed that I'm being pegged as happy that sangres is dead when I actually feel the opposite: they'd be able to verify that I did (not that it clears me, but it was an attempt to reach out and make a tentative plan for something else in a future night, but I can't really do any of that now)

[borkjerfkin]

If there's anything I don't like about Spiffeh overall is that his posts read like a caricature of someone angry about being scumread

[borkjerfkin]

Tammy if you have anything more specific you want to engage w/ me on, especially with your saying our reads are similar but you don't like how I got there I'd rather do it in real time then just wallpost and hope it gets reacted to eventually

I do appreciate the reachout even if this is where you currently seem to stand but I want to read this GreyICE/Prism interaction a bit more because I've skimmed it a few times and I don't understand it at all

[borkjerfkin]

PEDIT: Are you claiming to be scum with Cakez? If so... well, I'll take it.

I don't get how we got here and everything after this I think is just degenerate weirdness from that

[borkjerfkin]

I'd be game for DGB/Math and might be open to Bork depending on how things continue.

This isn't really the first time bork has ignored the towncase I've made on Titus, here my 1725 was by a very, VERY thorough review of the slot in 1711 and again I'm inclined to think the interactions w/ mastina point heavily towards her being +town

I kinda feel like the winds are changing w/ your opinion of me - can you briefly explain why using content from me in the last couple pages?

[borkjerfkin]

How were you reading quiet while he was in the game? I ISO'd you to check but you didn't really
mention him much, so does DGB being so low on your reads list have anything to do with him, or is it primarily its performance so far that puts it there?

Had virtually nothing on quiet with that ISO - didn't feel like I could confidently gleam anything out of what I got from his 8 or so posts. It's not really the basis for any read I have now.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm interested in that read because that read has been your main focus. The majority of your day one was focused around the Titus read such that you suspected people based on Titus/mastina positioning. You got after Mastina for her dumb Prism case, but made it clear that your interest was in Titus.

I'm sitting at is Bork town with just THAT strong of a read on Titus for reasons that I'm not so sure are for certain scum? That isn't to say that I don't agree with your problems about Titus because I did bring up some of the same problems with Titus yesterday. It just feels like it's a major focus with not much more depth. I'm interested in that depth. In part because I want to be able to read you, and I'd like your take. Titus is someone that I've gone back and forth on, and some of your issues with her are somewhat either or.

OR are you scum who's been focusing on Titus because it's easy to find scummy things about Titus and focus on her? I kindaaaa don't think if Titus is scum and a pr as has been suggested that you'd get as cranky as you did yesterday that people were going to mastina instead. But if Titus is town, then your focus for some of the reasons that you suggested, doesn't feel great. (I do like the part where you think Titus should be pushing in a different direction if she were town for some of her reads; I see possible glimmers of town there, but I'm not sure the mathblade issue is as concrete as you presented it (even though I admittedly felt the same way yesterday.)

My play didn't revolve around Titus.
It's the one wagon I got on but it's not where the majority of my engagement lies.

Like I don't even want to go into the rest of this before we get past that point - you're mischaracterizing my opinions on Titus.
If I felt strongly on Titus I'd have come into today and fucking voted her. I was waiting on the mastina flip before I dealt with that, and she flipped in a way that didn't implicate Titus in the way I described.
So I didn't vote there and am mostly reacting to her play today is why I'm conflicted on my mechanical wagon maybe town vs play oriented maybe scum

but I look at your

I'm sitting at is Bork town with just THAT strong of a read on Titus

and wonder if you're reading the same game I am.

that said, I'm not meaning to ignore any post in the game, but I don't appreciate the "bork ignored X <and I don't think he'd do that as town>"
like I ignored the whole fucking forward thread in tenet except when I was feeling on top of my game. You can bet your ass I've glossed over posts and will continue to do that. I'll give it a fair shake now that I've been pointed at it but ???

[borkjerfkin]

I really hate to say this but I now think Titus is pretty town. I'm only up through the first 60 posts but Titus's worldview is clear, ex. Dunn hiding behind LLD demotivates her further, this didn't come up only recently but has come up repeatedly. Great progression on Bell with 604, 605, 614. 636 actually is trying to work with Math.

Leaping off of this the entire sequence regarding Math's read on Bell beginning in 636, resulting in a vote on Math in 656 is great. They're legitimately trying to dialogue with Math, not at all setting him up to fail, and immediately gets frustrated when Math shuts down any hope of basic discussion.

I'm struggling to see how this stuff connects with Titus' reads list in 1455 where Bell is solid town - I see no mentions here. I think I may even have remarked about this before.

Like if you're scum and bell is town you have to end up w/ Bell town eventually because as everyone in this game knows he's patently unmislimable but he serves as a nice push target in the meantime.

[borkjerfkin]

(And yes I realize that these are 800+ posts apart)

[borkjerfkin]

I don't think my point on Grey atm is particularly complex; intuitively I feel like his interactions around me have been all wrong, but lately I think he's been very content to ignore any points for town-Titus in favor of pushing her for playing poorly. (And if he's right, shame on me, but I haven't seen those given fair consideration despite him working so hard to get a reply out of me)

Is Grey saying you scumslipped here or what am I fucking reading in the post I quoted

because if that's the case he should be being very deliberate in this explanation of it

[borkjerfkin]

And what do you think my reads are?

was meaning to get back to this post here but why did you ask me this specific question because it feels like a non-sequitur to what i posted

[borkjerfkin]

characterization in 2731 was VERY off.

can you please be very specific about what you mean here?
I'm not trying to be dense I'm just trying to get what your reservation is.

[borkjerfkin]

It just feels like we have the same poe

I don't necessarily think that's indicative of a person being town

It's probably more indicative of a particularly weak scumteam that most people (town and scum) have in their poe

[borkjerfkin]

I don't think asking "Why don't you scumread me?" requires me to be scum but perhaps Grey's opinion varies.

I don't either and that's a pretty dumb thing to say

[borkjerfkin]

The wrong characterization was in the nature of my defense, it doesn't really have so much to do with her being stubborn or dense.

Oh.
I made the best attempt to put the biggest fucking error bars I could there because I literally couldn't find the post at the time, I'll cop to any mischaracterization of that I had, I was going off my memory of it.

[borkjerfkin]

Not sure why you'd think I'd be bussing over me being town then

I'm not saying that - you came in with "What do you think my reads are". Why did you ask me that if not to imply I should be townreading you for it?

[borkjerfkin]

Also I'm finding it hard to get to everything at once/prioritize posts appropriately but I'm glad to have both of you too re: Tammy/Spiffeh, and I'm looking forward to LLD joining us tomorrow.

fwiw i was very moved and there was a point in 2181 where I kinda felt maybe our feud there was gonna bleed out of game but I kinda get how you treat games now (maybe?) and realize it's not like that and you have an uncanny ability to compartmentalize.

either way I came out of that game feeling really good about playing w/ you again despite how it went down.

[borkjerfkin]

But actually gonna stop here. Interacting with you in the first place was a mistake.

I feel like I just got slapped and I have no idea what happened and I'm pretty fucking miserable about it.

[borkjerfkin]

that said, I'm not meaning to ignore any post in the game, but I don't appreciate the "bork ignored X <and I don't think he'd do that as town>"
like I ignored the whole fucking forward thread in tenet except when I was feeling on top of my game. You can bet your ass I've glossed over posts and will continue to do that. I'll give it a fair shake now that I've been pointed at it but ???

Tammy I wasn't even talking to you here.

[borkjerfkin]

dude you feel like piss in the wind and you can get after me FOR DARING TO ASK YOU A QUESTION all you want but I'm really confused as to why??? Are you trying to say that yesterday the biggest scum read you had wasn't Titus and that you didn't orient your reads around Titus, get after people like Dunn for not being on the Titus wagon, call out a few people for their positions on Titus? If you say no, I'm wrong about that, I'll go reread your posts from yesterday again, but I really don't think I'm mischaracterizing your read yesterday at all.

fine ok but i'm just kinda lost as to what i did to piss you off

[borkjerfkin]

I haven't read every post either, but getting pissy at me asking you what you think about a post someone made AND let's not mistake something here buddy,

like i apologize - that segment was to prism, not you

=/

[borkjerfkin]

But actually gonna stop here. Interacting with you in the first place was a mistake.

Actually I don't want to leave this alone w/o saying:

I don't want to walk on eggshells around you either. This particular instance was us getting our wires crossed.
But like I might egregiously mischaracterize something you do legitimately later
and I don't want the answer to be for you to avoid me.
I respect you a ton as a player and a person but I'd appreciate some attempt to work through that rather than shut me down (and honestly I feel awful about this interaction now and I don't feel like anything I said there should've led to this)

[borkjerfkin]

That is understandable, so can you elaborate on why DGB occupies such a low spot in your reads list given the content it has provided so far?

acknowledging this post, yeah.

[borkjerfkin]

Thanks tammy.

[borkjerfkin]

tammy also has moved up like 70 tiers in my reads after this interaction

[borkjerfkin]

Actually I'm changing my mind again on Titus

I feel like DGB entered the game w/ the desire of voting Titus

And did it by way of going

"I think Mathblade is town" (not substantiated, which isn't bad in and of itself, but for a sheep vote it'd be interesting why someone goes there and not to like LLD who is town for a lot more of an objective reason to leash a vote to)
"Math, do you want to vote <person Math obviously doesn't want to vote>"
"No? I want Titus <where my vote is>"
"Oh of course, Titus, I see now"

VOTE: DGB

I think Titus is necessarily town with this scumflip too

[borkjerfkin]

To put it bluntly, yes, you should at least not be scumreading me when we have similar reads on the rest of the players

this is just not the way I play and I'd just discount that as a reason to read me either way

[borkjerfkin]

see: that ffery modded game where f16 and I went for like 30 pages about this exact thing that I don't feel like linking

[borkjerfkin]

I was the Morrigan which was fucking metal though

[borkjerfkin]

Can you give a bit more background as to how you thought of this/what led you to look back at DGB right this moment?

spffeh wanted me to review DGB was the impetus for the reread

[borkjerfkin]

How I thought of it was that I thought it was odd that DGB went right to Mathblade as a rock entering the game and wondered why that might be

[borkjerfkin]

How I thought of it was that I thought it was odd that DGB went right to Mathblade as a rock entering the game and wondered why that might be

His tone is pretty obv town, why wouldn't I?

i think he is town so i don't think this line of questioning is particularly interesting:

is he the easiest to read person in the game?
why'd pooky come up?
how do you feel about titus independently of math?

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

I think Titus is town. A horrendous VCA she strongly believes in is probably a town tell for her.

I'm just not sure dgb makes this post as scum knowing that's where her vote is or instead maybe unvoting or i don't fucking know but this isn't it

help

[borkjerfkin]

A horrendous VCA she strongly believes in is probably a town tell for her.

this isn't a bad point from titus actually

you seem to have done analysis on this but are kinda just blowing past that to a conclusion

[borkjerfkin]

town for the day based on my VCA.

the lord giveth, the lord taketh away

[borkjerfkin]

Anything I should look at in particular?

thoughts on:
Titus
Cakez
Dunn
BM
Pooky
Spiffeh

is what I'd like to see atm.

[borkjerfkin]

You are 100% not above playing hurt to engineer townreads, and the attitude around bork right now is vaguely familiar.

need to go to bed and i'm not getting really anywhere trying to gleam anything about quiet's substantive posts atm but the posts you linked here very much lack bite to them whereas what she just posted to me earlier tonight had it to the point where it gave me mood whiplash and i had to do a double take to make sure i didn't come across with more vitriol than i intended to before i realized i'd just not provided object context to a part of my post

i just don't think she does this as scum and in fact if she were she should secretly relish that what i'm posting doesn't make sense when interpreted about her and isn't really a reason for her to lose her cool
whereas if i'm just misrepping her to the point where she can't feel she can talk to me it does make sense for her to react how she did
and she didn't use this opportunity to vote me or anything she just boxed me out because she was frustrated with my attitude. this is like the perfect point in the game to vote me, too, wagonwise.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not attacking you

What you're doing isn't making sense to me

What is your fascination with me? Your read went from town to scum because you don't think I'm a mason, but what am I scum for?

Tone felt accusatory; tone still feels accusatory. I don't really care about that in a bubble, but I think it's disingenuous to say that your posts can't well be interpreted as an attack on me (as you do in 2962
This also feels like the second time I'm being told I'm being uncharacteristically focused/fascinated on a particular slot (first Titus, and now you). I've mostly left you alone today other than having you in my PoE pool. I don't think that constitutes a fascination and you calling it that feels slimy.

They went out of their way to leave hints that they thought I was a mason

this also gets a big ol' 'what the fuck'

I saw LLD's medium hard defense of you and wanted to back off from any previous pushing I did w/o making it obvious why I was doing that. I don't get what potential scum motivation you're trying to apply to this.

Most of why I was on you through the middle of D1 was that your attacks on Mathblade seemed like they came from a position where you didn't seem to understand what he was trying to say but were confident in scumreading him for it, and any time I called attention to that you came down with a big case of "whataboutism" from the rest of the thread instead of either trying to give me what your take on Math was or admitting you didn't really know either and backing off. It still looks like from the beginning of the game you came in with the intent of scumreading Mathblade in a somewhat dismissive manner rather than considering his reads at the beginning of the game.

I don't really care all that much that our PoE pool is pretty similar and this isn't an angle I'd really have even considered if you hadn't brought it up - I feel like this is the sort of thing I see when someone's trying to say "I can't be scum because that PoE pool doesn't make sense with me in it" which, maybe the latter part could be true, and if I'm trying to go for some kind of perfect solve then maybe I care about that. But I'm not.

[borkjerfkin]

I like the analysis of DGB 2867 at first glance.

[borkjerfkin]

I think bork is scum obviously but DGB's self vote is practically a scum claim for me.

is it now?

[borkjerfkin]

how you feelin' bout layin' down something an MC from your youth sang about

I feel like Spiffeh has been vocally talking about wanting to vote DGB today but has patently avoided doing it, even in the face of one of the hardest scumreads I've seen this game (and certainly harder than he should be ostensibly scumreading me at this particular juncture based on what he's posted)
Like in the same post of "Hey I think this is a scumclaim from DGB (which is not contrary to anything he's previously stated; doesn't vote there)

but lemme tell you about bork here hint hint

"

When I think the town thing to here is to leave me until tomorrow if he really thinks we're both scum

this heavily imples DGB scum

[borkjerfkin]

I don't agree with this and think pushing you today makes complete sense, in the same vein as me sitting on GreyICE for a lot of the day. Arguably that one's even worse because there's 0 interest on Grey but with actual interest in you.

Pushing me today in general is whatever, but we're close to deadline and you're where you are and Spiffeh is where he is at

I realize spiffeh posted his "this is why I'm not on DGB" right now like right above me but that's still how I feel

[borkjerfkin]

Bork had some awful end of Day posts yesterday so he is still my top target for elimination, he didn't do much to change my mind otherwise. Prism, I saw you call him out for these, have you changed your mind or are you questioning your bork townread at all today?

Instead of grandstanding about it: what was bad about my posts in a way that you're applying scum motivation to?
and I dunno; you basically vote parked me all day yesterday, but you seem to feel that you have to qualify the fact that you want me gone now by virtue of my bad end of day posts and that makes me further question the earnestness of your vote being where it was in the first place yesterday.

I dunno. Fucking talk to me about it. I'm town, and I'm resetting today. I suggest you do the same.

[borkjerfkin]

I think SirCakez is better because then we learn if Cakez was a town wagon counter to Mastina or not.

I'm considering this. It's not a bad idea.

[borkjerfkin]

Searching off wagon makes little sense though given the play of most of the mastina wagon.

I'm going through some of what you're saying about VCA here and it mostly makes sense but can you qualify this statement in particular?
I ask because I think it's a potential way to kind of shut down having to fully explore the dichotomies you're trying to propose here and I feel like in order to do that legitimately you'd have to like super hard townread everyone you're considering on the mastina wagon

[borkjerfkin]

Bork - Does Bell's scum read on you bother you?

I mean insofar in that it's wrong? Sure.
Am I offended by it? No.

But Bell's town and I'm not going to use the limited amount of energy I've got to devote to this game to get in a pissing contest with him about why he's wrong.
I also don't think he's the type of person who's going to be convinced by the person he's suspecting as to why. If he wants to engage with me, he can engage with me.
If he wants to read me by my play wrt the rest of the game, well, I'll do that too.

[borkjerfkin]

To be honest I was like 100% sure you and DGB were scum buddies after 3141 and I was all set to call that out today had DGB flipped scum.

And here you are basically pushing me anyway. Like I get having a contingent read on another slot if a slot flips a certain way but why even bring this up with your current demeanor on me? Are you actually serious about giving me a fair shake or is this just for show?

However, in 3141 you seem to be scum reading me to the point that MY actions there "heavily implied DGB scum"

I thought your interactions there implied potential S-S relationship between the two of you. Had DGB flipped scum I would've been more convinced of that considering the other person in that three way relationship (me) is definitely town. This isn't dissimilar from the read on the situation you're stating above.

I feel I have engaged you a fair amount this game so I don't really buy the whole "talk to me about it" shtick.

It's not a 'schitck' and painting it that way is, frankly, annoying. I'm trying to reassess and part of that means trying to have a good faith engagement despite our previous interactions.
And I'd appreciate if you don't shut that down - you don't get to say on one hand "I don't buy your reachout schtick" and then on the other "I'm tired of bork et al. scumreading me" - I don't find that behavior scummy, because I get where it potentially comes from as a town player scorned, but it basically is going to make me want to disengage which you really shouldn't want if you're town.

If you want my three top reads going into today, it'd probably still have been in the (Titus/Dunn/Battle Mage) range but really out of the living players, Bell, Prism, Pookyasterisk are the only people I'm really not reconsidering my town stances on today.

[borkjerfkin]

I hate you’re not trying to rally others or sort through it openly.

Definitely not at the point where I'm comfortable rallying anybody to anything.

It's a sound idea in that it paints the D1 wagons in a potentially different light to some people in that some people are assuming that it's a definite counterwagon on town. There's not a whole lot deeper to that premise.
The hard pard is figuring out if Cakez is scum or not.

[borkjerfkin]

I think a quick read through my posts Day 2 would tell you that DGB was always my second choice and I had no problem with its lim.

I'm already reassessing on this considering DGB's flip, but I'll go back to this. I hadn't internalized that stance of yours.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: borkjerfkin

honestly fuck off.

[borkjerfkin]

i fucking hope you're scum at this point.

[borkjerfkin]

I do feel better since you had no artifacts and I feel you would have one by now if scum.

he

currently

had no artifacts at a snapshot in time.
How do you know he never did?

[borkjerfkin]

^Going to assume this is out of scum range

Because I swore at somebody?
Really?

[borkjerfkin]

like i hate to be the 'show your work or i'm marking you wrong even though you got the right answer' teacher but that's an absurdly low bar you're setting

[borkjerfkin]

If i thought it would help me win in the right circumstances? I'd at least fucking attempt it lol

p-edit: that's not why i'm pissed off. i'm mad because spiffeh is jerking me around by acting as if he's willing to reassess on me and then blatantly is not

[borkjerfkin]

i dunno that's just a weird thing to call 'out of anyone's scum range' to me

[borkjerfkin]

i'll be back in a bit

[borkjerfkin]

Bork I’m genuinely not trying to upset you

yeah.
heat of the moment and i apologize as well, you didn't deserve that, regardless of alignment. i'm just gonna not engage here for now.

bork!rage seems outside of scum range I think?

I am squicked out by this from now two people.
In fact, who out of Dunn/Cakez has even seen my scumgame in a game? How do you know?

[borkjerfkin]

where did Bell claim to transfer the item during the day?

i guess the simplest explanations would be either the Mod got it wrong in the OP, or Spiffeh and Bell are just scum? But both surprise me so I probably missed something key.

maybe this is town from BM; moreso if neither Spiffeh/Bell are scum, but this struck me as a genuine reaction of trying to reconcile possibilities based on an earlier mental state that says otherwise.
meh.

[borkjerfkin]

I still don't know where the fuck I'm at w/ Titus.

3585 is definitely something I can see coming from town Titus.

I could also see this being S-S but I have a really hard time seeing it be S-Titus and T-Cakez in particular - just seems like the sort of baseless ticket you don't want to have to write to a townie.

[borkjerfkin]

Bork will you tell me I'm crazy if I tell you that today I did a search for how often you use the word fuck as town v scum because I had a theory and the out of your scum range crew had me thinking my theory was correct?

that, while, uh, not a task i would wish on anybody, is an intellectually honest response
and i'm not surprised you git the answer you got.
even if you hadn't i still feel that nobody who gave that take is trying to do any legitimate meta to get there

this post is now an advertisement for phpbb 3.3 coming soon featuring Sphinx search where you "Probably Won't Crash the Site"® trying to do the things that Tammy just did

[borkjerfkin]

Bork will you tell me I'm crazy if I tell you that today I did a search for how often you use the word fuck as town v scum

also i changed my mind i'm sigging this instead

[borkjerfkin]

Who is a player you have changed your mind on, or at least had your view of challenged in a way that made you actually doubt the read\, in the last calendar week, and why?

Titus.

I think that a lot of later Titus posts have made me doubt my earlier scumread.
Gutwise, I think a lot of Titus' later posts look town.
3636 to me doesn't seem manipulative and maybe can explain the earlier fixation on math.
3628 looked pretty town - it was a reachout that didn't really serve any interest but to get the game back on track after a misflip.
3545 looked town. BM is a pretty easy target if town; this is null if BM isn't town, but I like the take.

The thing holding me back from this:
The VCA arguments seem to be TMI based on Cakez' alignment.
3457 is the best example of this - all Titus' VCA arguments basically assume the eventuality that Cakez is going to flip town, and I can't see why Titus' would base so many foundational reads on that tenet unless she knew cakez was, in fact, going to flip town.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Cakez

I think this is the play then

[borkjerfkin]

Titus as scum tends to assume what she wants or what is beneficial to her. That if Titus is scum, may not be TMI.

And I agree. Titus never really considered Cakez scum which is why if Cakez flips scum she’s a likely partner and she’s desperate to escape the VCA she herself made.

this is fair and i don't know how to estimate the likelihood of it vs the hypothesis i presented above but the point is well taken

[borkjerfkin]

What's been the evolution of your thinking on Cakez to the point he's now a higher tier vote choice?

well,
I want to preface this w/ me deliberately stating I wanted to throw this out the window for today, but:

DGB is dead
Titus I think I've explained
BM I've had a couple of recent posts on that i think felt town, and I think 3657 was a really good post.
Spiffeh, eh, Spiffeh is not getting elimed today and I'm trying not to let my personal annoyances cloud reality with it. I don't know what Spiffeh is.
I could probably vote Dunn still.

Mostly though I think what Mathblade says is true and that Cakez gives us more info than most slots and most of my early game read there is tonal which probably should be reexamined day3+

[borkjerfkin]

I don't really have a lot to say about Cakez. His play is sensibly engaging but other than his kinda push on pooky there's not really a lot of substance to it?
this is the sort of slot i'd probably have left till later normally.

But otherwise I'm not really sure what else to do other than flashwagon Dunn

[borkjerfkin]

Meta-wise, it feels more like scum mathblade, but I dunno. feels like he's been the voice of reason more often lately.

This is what screamed to me as town. I think Mathblade is town, and I think if BM were scum there are enough people in the game that want Math gone still that you can make basically any other stance than this and be better off.
Instead this seems like conscientious objection to a read he's had all game with the salient fact that Math is here, being a leader, pretty much all the time, and the overpowering likely reason for that is that he's town

[borkjerfkin]

If you don't have time to reread, it's okay, just say so, but right now it looks like you just have 0 drive to win or actively solve regardless of what you are atm.

=/

[borkjerfkin]

*stares at Bork*

Is mathblade your muffin.

i'm just not here for this shit. Math is town as fuck.
do whatever you want

[borkjerfkin]

If you don't have time to reread, it's okay, just say so, but right now it looks like you just have 0 drive to win or actively solve regardless of what you are atm.

Prism, for you, I'm trying to reread cakez:

The claim stuff is all null. He could have that role reasonably as either alignment.
posts like 3543 are asking questions but they don't seem terribly useful or relevant and they're not set up to go anywhere.
I did like the tone in 3581 and i think he probably realizes he's on the short list of people that would be the target of said wagon.
The posts reading Bell & me seem pretty shallow.
I liked the justification he gave in 3404

Nothing he's done today is really substantive outside a general gung-ho attitude when he is posting, which I don't think is really good for a D3 townread.

Mostly I also don't think they're scum together still. Cakez has been seemingly itchy to get at Titus since the beginning of the day and it seems like another bus today is probably catastrophic for that team.

[borkjerfkin]

if noddy replaces in and you don't see anything from him in the next 12 hours you policy the shit out of that slot

[borkjerfkin]

Prism i'm probably going to have to bail in the next few, but I am doing nothing tomorrow but smoking a 10 pound pork butt and getting the mafiascum staging site updated to current prod so we can do testing on it for the upgrade.

if you're around i'd be happy to do more of a deep dive on some slots du jour.

[borkjerfkin]

Having seen 2181, I obviously disagreed that you're incapable of being very abrasive as scum, and reacting with a bit of with a bit of hurt/offense was definitely something that came out that game. The very harsh attitude towards Cabd on his unwnd push comes to mind. One post that a really stuck with me was a post to ffery about "I feel like with one breath you're telling me to work with you more, but with the other you're pushing me away"

We can talk about this after the game since it's not going to help in this one, but this is really noisy meta. I'll go into it more if you explicitly want but otherwise I'd prefer to sidestep this for now.

[borkjerfkin]

notscience replaces GreyICE. Vote count shortly.

might be joining greyice soon tbh

Please, Assume I’ve learned from my mistakes. I’m not going to go into this further, but I understand why you feel this way and would like the opportunity to redeem myself.

You’re probably town and gut pinging bell town too.

o/

I think the last 2 sentences, "But Cakez/Dunn aren't me. I thought Cakez pulling off of you for that was a bit +town, since he's been more than happy to push you to now." was the more important part of that post.

fair enough.

[borkjerfkin]

Hi Tammy! Are you town too?

Where’s Titus I’ve been good at reading her lately

Ninja-

THE MOUSE WIZARD IS GOOD

What’s the deal about Pooky and Cakez? Short version I’m eating McDonald’s and drinking a Paloma

Ninja-
Hi Pooky

yeah

VOTE: notscience

i think i'd rather do this

[borkjerfkin]

Yes, I know some theories regarding role usage as a cop is to go for the null, but I don't know if you feel so completely strongly about it, why aren't you checking the person you're hoping to bury?

Tammy i'm going to go over some of your big post over the rest of the day.
This is a pretty good point, and the reason that you go for the null as a cop type role most of the time is that you don't want to have a sudden unexplained turnaround on a slot that makes it obvious to scum that you're an investigative.
That doesn't apply here since he'd already claimed.

[borkjerfkin]

You said my logic was sound on elimming in Cakez/Titus/Dunn.
Your townreads want Cakez.

Why Not Science over someone in the PoE?

I think ns' opening is indicative of scum-him more than i am comfortable calling cakez scum. all the things you said are true but that doesn't necessarily mean we're getting a scumflip - it just means we're getting a high info flip.

whereas town notty comes in and does more than just kinda give weak RVS-phase-style tonal nuggets and shove off again, esp if he's been reading the game to catch up.
Does more with my slot than just return my high five - either expresses an early townread or says he doesn't have one and asks me why

[borkjerfkin]

Do you think SirCakez was town and an all town counter wagon formed against him?

I'm not taking to the bank that everyone on the cakez wagon was town, even if cakez isn't town.
Even if that is true it's not like that kinda shit doesn't happen all the time anyway?
I don't really do VCA, and I'll sheep townreads if that's the best option I think I have going for me at the moment.
I just no longer think that's the case.

[borkjerfkin]

You're more comfortable calling a dude who has made like 4 posts scum than Cakez who has 356 posts?

me? yes. more information is not necessarily equivalent to more clarity

[borkjerfkin]

otherwise I'd be pushing you guys for your poor play I mentioned above.

this is just really weirdly phased. either it's scummy play or it's not.

[borkjerfkin]

I heard you were sick or something.

j&j shot did a number on me fri night - and i don't usually react that kinda way to vaccines. thanks for the well wishes.

[borkjerfkin]

You getting hyper defensive about your alignment whenever I try to talk to you is still a thing

i'm not getting defensive - i just think that's circular reasoning for pushing people

[borkjerfkin]

My first reaction was "What type of alcohol is that?" send help

that's j&b and my parents can stick w/ that swill

[borkjerfkin]

dunn pretend my name isn't in that post and you mentioned two randos and i still would've had that response

[borkjerfkin]

"if i thought X was scum i'd be pushing X for poor play."

You don't push people for poor play because you already think they are scum (circular reasoning), you come to believe they are scum because they are doing scummy things.

anyway i don't think anything after this on that topic is going to be alignment indicative from you so i'm done w/ it

[borkjerfkin]

i know what you meant - i'm saying that's neutral and not a reason to find someone scummy so why push them for it.
i don't feel like this is helping.

[borkjerfkin]

i mostly mean the idea of pushing someone for something not alignment indicative because you already think they're scum for something else just a weird thing to talk about doing.

[borkjerfkin]

bork, sorry but I actually need to know if you targeted anyone with the same thing (power, artifact, whatever) you did sangres N1.

artifact; i used the Farnsworth (sends messages); i started w/ this and crumbed it in my first post.

[borkjerfkin]

(so no, it was gone after N1)

[borkjerfkin]

The Dunn votepark was super bad. He didn't like Dunn's post that I actually picked out as a fairly town post.

Like I don't even want to go any further than this part of the read. How do you get from "I thought that post from Dunn looked town" (your opinion) to "This is a scummy vote park from Cakez" without any attempt to examine whether or not he believed what he was saying.

Feels like a fake read.

[borkjerfkin]

The town case is he reached out his little fins and gently touched them to the valves of my heart. And then he said "they're not fins there's a k there in the name" but I said "shhh, it's okay, don't speak"

I don't know what this is but I'm fairly certain I'll never experience anything quite like it ever again

[borkjerfkin]

Like yeah if he’s town he obv believes what he’s saying but it looks like scum picking an easy target to vote

mood

[borkjerfkin]

ok

2) 1854 Continuation of the dunn tunnel thats bad, but I feel like this is trying to get attention away from the leading wagons. Which he'd want to do, if both were scum.

what were the other leading wagons. Mastina and himself? or is there some other person you're talking about

[borkjerfkin]

why not just vote Mastina there if town. No one would complain

i mean your point boils down to "voted elsewhere when could've voted flipped scum" which I mean sure I guess but how does that not apply to everyone off the mastina wagon?

[borkjerfkin]

unless you're arguing that voting mastina there as town strictly for self preservation would've been an inherently town thing to do

which i don't agree with at all

[borkjerfkin]

Ctrl+F mastina in his iso.

He spends like half the day talking about how mastina is scummy and yet he’s trying to derail her wagon.

Ninja-
No thats nai

Him avoiding a player he has a scumread on with a big wagon and one threatening him?

That’s sketchy

Ok, I'm rereading and I actually agree with this take.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: cakez

1080 mctwist

[borkjerfkin]

If you think the other person even remotely has a shot at being scum you vote them. Cakez said Mastina was scummy but then never wanted her except “I guess this is what we are doing”. (Paraphrase)

i concede the point

[borkjerfkin]

I literally laid this all out with pictures and everything lol

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12642205

a word is worth 1000 pictures

[borkjerfkin]

swing and a miss, dipshit

[borkjerfkin]

i'm dead at the end of N4 unless cured

[borkjerfkin]

yeah well nice job breaking it hero

[borkjerfkin]

i am (probably) not talking to you

[borkjerfkin]

i already didn't have the spoons for this shit but i really don't now

p-edit:

Spoiler: Spiffeh only

[borkjerfkin]

I am responsible for poisoning bork, I used the artifact Bell passed me per his instructions. I chose bork because I'm scum reading him and townreading Mathblade.

kinda wanna flip math now

[borkjerfkin]

We should be eliminating Spiffeh today.

it's possible that you were right initially - spiffeh is overzealous town that made a judgment call based on his personal reads
but if math is scum, well, that changes a lot and gives potential scum motivation for it

[borkjerfkin]

Kinda wondering if this poison is even real and if it's Spiffeh+Bork?

lol

[borkjerfkin]

I have a mechanical clear on Spiffeh, scarf was a PT cop w/ negative effect that I am now in a PT by myself.

ok nevermind, spiffeh see said middle finger post again

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: spiffeh

sigh

[borkjerfkin]

it's morning

[borkjerfkin]

Titus: did you get any notice this morning?