Newbie 2057: Mars! - End!

[six pomegranate seeds]

Hi everyone nice to meet you! I've played mafia on another website but this will be my first forum game.

I'm honestly just happy I got town in my first game right now, you can take that as non alignment indicative but it is true

I will try to read through the game and write down my reads for you guys soon.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Sounds good, thanks for the welcome! I went for a run and picked up lunch, so I'll start my review soon.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I’ve already skimmed and seen the flips so I know Pooky was town and T3 was town. My gut feelings walking away from the skim were:
Townleans: SAMCRO / Kazyan / WhemeStar
Scumleans: Skitter
Null CreativeName
I don’t totally remember the reason for these feelings, didn’t write anything down yet.

Now I’ll reread and take notes reading game chronological order to brain dump my thoughts and help me process.

#13 leans town, but is SE doing it so weak feeling. (whemestar)

#14 leans town. Succinct, to the point.

#17 People frame 1 claiming VT tend to really be VT in my book. It would be a very strong play as mafia, I admit. The delivery is funny however and in my book funny leans town.

#23 skitter initially TRs samco, which I agree with.

#27 this mildly leans scum to me. I don’t like when people ask questions that seemingly serve no purpose to finding scum, especially if it is an SE doing it. #34 implies that skitter was going to use clearly NAI memeing / or the fear votes of a now confirmed townie as a way to alignment read them, which I think leans scummy. If someone does that to me I disregard it as meaningless and look for other clues. #43 So skitter implies she SRs pooky for literal jokes - this looks very bad in hindsight knowing that pooky is town. On my initial skim pooky did not seem that townie, but SRing for RVS memeing doesn’t feel good to me.

#47 I remember TRing kazyan on the initial skim, this was probably the post that started it, they give what feels like the first real TRs of the game because they give a teeny bit of meat to the reads and they feel right, pooky feels NAI so far and SAMCRO feels town. I agree that SAMCRO playing dumb is a bold mafia strategy.

#25 and #48 this is a silly thought but them saying long time no see would seem really silly if they were S/S and had a private mafia chat to themselves. Maybe they are laughing about it in mafia chat though.

#51 don’t like this toweread on skitter by kazyan but it doesn’t mean they are scum tbf.

#52 maybe there is context here then that I am missing. #53 / #54 I think my bias towards skitter being scum makes me feel better about kazayn being townie if skitter is mafia i feel like kazayan is probably a town from that early TR. Idk if skitter is a player who would defend their mafia.

#57 and #59 honestly feel kind of LAMISTy in retrospect, creative is explaining an awful lot of stuff that seems irrelevant to me. Lots of words to explains things that are common sense. But on my skim I didn’t really SR him for these quotes maybe he is just concerned about noobs no voting. #61 reads seem a little forced tbh, similar to skitter implying a light susses on Pooky Creative trying to draw a serious conclusion out of obvious nonsense, feels a little tryhard tbh with you.

[six pomegranate seeds]

#64 Maybe this is where I TR kazyan tbh, creatives reads definitely feel like a stretch and I like where Kazyan’s head was at here. #65 This doesn’t read as town to me but w/e.

#71 I actually forgot kazayan pointed out the LAMIST. Anyway kazyan feels townie than Creative in this interaction don’t know if that makes creative scum.

#75 feels like a townie mindset from kazyan. Uncertainty in his reads clearly answers the implication of skitter’s deliberately vague question. #85 never mind guess it’s not too vague.

#83 T3 SR skitter - this is super townie move from our dead jail keeper jumping into the game with a SR Actually this makes me feel really good about SRing skitter given T3 will later die as the night kill and I didn’t see any PR softs on my skim. I think in the average game SEs would die before a newbie lie T3 so it makes me think skitter is scummy.

#91 I think I like whemestar coming in with an early strong SR too. Pooky feels at this point to have low meaning to text volume ratio. But whemestar is SE so I have to be careful TRing him too much.

#94 I feel like Creative bringing up possibility of masons when we know its jail keeper now is maybe townie? But looking at the grid I guess mafia doesn’t really know that much about town PRs from their roles so nvm its NAI.

#95 this entreaty from whemestar to skitter does not feel like a maifa teammate trying to get their mafia teammate to vote with them. In my mind I doubt that whemestar and Skitter are both mafia together.

#96 I think whemestar suddenly changing their mind like that is townie. Imo mafia tend to try to weave a coherent story and that total 180 not only is not coherent it also feels right from my POV because I don’t think creative seems like obvious town either. #97 Now that I reread 94 after whemetar saying it throws him off yeah #94 seems like total filler content lol. Creative has been speaking a lot to say very little tbh. Posts #95-97 to me make whemestar see like a town. I like when people appear like they are thinking and I like the conclusions he’s reaching here.

#98 T3 continues to SR skitter. I like the skitter SR still.

#104 and 106 - I have almost no idea what to make of this. It seems like Whemestar was PR reading creative and then creative reveals he doesn’t know towns PRs. Actually seems like whemestar is putting himself as a town power role which perhaps weakens my TR on him given he will survive the night phase.

#109 I don’t mind skitter’s conclusions that they come to here in 109. But a Note - I don’t think that Skitter ever really makes a conclusion off of asking spooky how far he was going to take a meme vote. Just some very light vague implied scum read then drops it. Actually she says that she took that as an effort “broadly discredit” her - which is a major stretch it was literally a meme.

She had also asked kazyan what they thought of her TR on creative and I don’t see a conclusion to the questioning. I don’t like when people ask questions that don’t serve a clear purpose - it feels scummy to me. Also T3 feels like super obvious town to me at this point even before I saw the flip and skitter has them null.

“other than pooky wouldn't be surprised if all the scumz were in the people who haven't posted yet tbh” - this actually pings me as a very scummy statement. Because A) my slot (grif) hasn’t spoken yet and I know I’m town and B) I feel like the other afk slot (meagen) could be town because the mafia where able to do a night kill. Maybe I don’t understand the mechanics of mafia night kills but the site I’m from kills can’t even go through unless both mafias vote. So this to me feels like Skitter pushing afk players which feels very scummy because its a way of gaining the players who will actually votes trust and its a little hard to believe coming from a town because how can you know afk players are scummy? Idk maybe I’m playing into my confirmation bias at this point.

[six pomegranate seeds]

#114 T3 stays with the skitter SR, he doesn’t drop it.

#120 I don’t like creative pushing spooky that much but would a scum team of Skitter and Creative really just openly align together and agree pooky is sus? I’m not sure. In any case creative pushing something that was clearly NAI doesn’t feel that townie here.

#123 I’m just biased towards TRing kazayan because he’s vocalizing the things I’m thinking in my head but he’s actually in the game LOL. I hope he’s actually town.

#132 this actually reads super town in retrospect. And #133 Kazyan could just be playing super well as mafia setting up creative to get the ML d2 but honestly his read feels reasonable to me that there is scum between pooky/creative.

#136 *vomits in my mouth* Pooky if she’s mafia and that’s the note you die on big cringe bro LOL.

#139 Samcro’s counter wagon feels town. He’s felt like obvious town to this point and pookys epic “there were two votes dude lol” comeback feels townie I like samcros impose at this point to pivot. #140 and I love the reason tbh. Creative talks so much and says so little at points.

Just going to ignore my slots posts. Why are you arguing with samcro my man?

#144 “If creative could point to a post and say "this seems like lurking" then maybe his post would have validity, but since he just says people are possibly lurking with no actual merit behind that statement it's just a way to subtly shade an entire group of players. NEXT!” This whole post screams obvious town to me. I love it.

#146 oh meagan was not afk whoops i didn’t see this during the skim. My afk is town because kill went through theory is probably nonsense then.

#147 lol. I honestly don’t mind if people SR my slot for this post. Wtf man LOL. My only defense is that this post and vote is just too scummy to be scum

#151 I know later in game people are saying they think this bravado is fake but it seems just obvious town to me. What mafia on day 1 literally calls another player claimed scum? Walking yourself out of that is basically impossible. And this is coming from a guy who didn’t now how to vote a few days earlier. In my mind I’m willing to lose the game to a scum samcro for time being - he just seems like a town.

#153 This is personal bias, but I have never uttered these words as mafia. “I am town I don’t give a flying **** if you vote me vote that guy next.” I think samcro is just town.

#154 And I really don’t like that Skitter isn’t town reading samcro. I hate when someone who is a smart player disagrees with a read I feel strongly about. I feel like when smart players are trying to push my town reads they tend to be mafia. I also don’t really like skitter TRing my slot EOD could be a TMI TR although I admit on my skim i think I light TR my slot. I am deep in the skitter tunnel at this point, part of me wants to vote skitter now to punish what feels like scum siding on their part. I hope this read is correct or it’ll be hella embarrassing LOL.

#165 This and the series of posts before it from SAMCRO is either SAMCRO in his first game just railing against his genuine sus as town (which is fare more likely imo) or SAMCRMO deciding to openly out as mafia on d1 and hammer someone who he is saying is for sure town when he could barely figure out how to vote beginning of game. I do not believe SAMCRO would do the later their first game as mafia, if he’s mafia I will just lose the game and gj having that much confidence.

[six pomegranate seeds]

#169 Just giving up and saying fine vote me I don’t feel like is a scum response here. He reads big time town to me.

#177 I agree with T3, the idea that samcro is mafia is so far fetched to me and the fact that he died makes me feel good about the read. Imo T3 was a weird kill when I was first skiming so I’m inclined to think his reads were good ones and he died for reading the game correctly.

#183 this reads scum to me too. Skitter had been light scum pushing pooky all day and now is apologizing as if he is guaranteed to flip town? Idk man maybe I am an idiot. And seeing skitter’s EOD reads they have samcro (i think town) > t3 (confirmed town) > griff (I am town) > wheme > creative (i feel scummier than the other players). These reads just feel wrong. Actually skitter left kazayan off idk what that indicates.

#202 I think he’s very misguided tbh.

#208 I love Kazayan’s fear of confirmation bias because that’s exactly what I’m scared of as town reviewing the logs. I think I will just keep him TR for now.

#213 is basically a town slip. Mafia had put their kill through. Idk there is no world I’m voting samcro today. #214 also feels like town slip, mafia would be more aware that we still have one miselim.

#217 This post actually seems a little townie to me. I have trouble with TRing people for being really mad for having a tunnel on them because I only get mad like this as town. I think to me this just makes Skitter a better vote than creative because at least creative had this one good reaction.

#218 I just don’t think a mafia says this.

#223 I feel like it’s normally town who asks for something like this. But I won’t read too much into it.

#224 I don’t like the kazyan is willing to vote samcro here but I like his impulse to vote creative. Idk ill just leave him in the town bin, I’m a little scared of him though.

#227 Oof i really dislike that. If I really think skitter is mafia I kind of doubt creative is the partner. Maybe kazyan could be a deep wolf setting up samcro -> creative MLs.

#242 At least one person in the game agrees with me. I hope town isn’t just eating itself here and mafia can just slide in for easy town credit by pointing out what seems obvious to me. But wheme will be a TR. I think its plausible he survives he night kill as SE because honestly he doesn’t seem to be posting that much. I didn’t like how he said he’s not the kind of player that gets night killed but perhaps that’s true.

#251 maybe creative could just be deep in the omegus idk but samcro seems like a town to me and this all reads as scum siding from creative. I don’t feel like he is mafia together with skitter though.

#258 Interesting thought from skitter. Normally I would be a little more suspicious of my fellow SE if a noob dies over both of us though.

#263 This is maybe the towniest thing skitter has posted all game to me. Don’t think it makes them town though.

#269 I know lots of you disagree but I just don’t think a mafia says that. And if he actually is mafia I think wheme is for sure town no mafia would defend a partner who is suiciding like this.

#276 Skitter feels like an experienced player trying to gaslight a noob who is playing obvious town and has correctly scum read her here.

#279 Maybe the second towniest thing that skitter has posted this game. I’m willing to die on the samcro town hill idc if i make a fool of myself.

#285 funny = town

#287 can kayan low-key be a scum candidate? Not sure lol.

#289 Idk if this is a gambit from creative.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Conclusion/Synthesis:
Town: SAMCRO?? / Kazyan????? / WhemeStar ???
Null: Meagen / Creative???
Scummy: Skitter ???

So I think I’ve really worked myself into a skitter SR. I think her light scumming pooky for NAI stuff then apologizing after he got voted after not defending him at all is scummy. Her asking questions I don’t think really advanced the game state in any way was scummy. I think her pushing on SAMCRO feels like awkward gas lighting SE pushing an obvious town noob player who has correctly sorted her. I think her living over T3 who had SR skitter and TR samcro and then just continuing to blindly tunnel samcro is scummy. Her expressing some second thoughts about samcro scum is the townies thing she’s done so far, but maybe this is just trying to dig herself out of samcro’s tunnel. Her sussing meagan for no reason maybe is a little bit townie, but could be scum trying to TR the present players who will actually vote to avoid being suspected. This is who I would vote today at this point in the game. 

I feel like Creative has been scummy at points in this game for high post volume to low post content ratio and stating obvious info to seem like he is helping town, but his reactions to being sussed so hard by SAMCRO feel more genuine and make me wonder if he can be town. Also he doesn’t seem like a great scum partner for skitter since skitter openly TR him to open the game although admittedly I don’t know if thats the kind of thing skitter would do. So I put him null.

Meagen is impossible to comment on as she has literally said nothing. I wanted to just Outside game information town bin them because I feel like mafia wouldn’t just afk? But thats probably stupid to do lol.

From voting logic i feel like just from the odds there’s probably at least one mafia on the pooky wagon.

PookyTheMagicalBear (5): WhemeStar (town lean), CreativeName (null) , GriffNotGraph (town), SAMCRO (town lean) , T3 (town)

To me creative is probably the most sus person on the wagon but I can’t quite bring myself to vote them right now. Kazyan being off the wagon helps his town case but I’m low key scared he could be a deepwolf because the skitter / Creative solve doesn’t feel totally correct to me.

Tl;dr I want to vote skitter. If skitter is town I’m kind of lost this game but that would probably mean to me that creative is scum with maybe whemstar or kazyan? Kazyan is willing to vote samcro over creative today is actually a little scary but he’s played townie imo so far. If Meagen is mafia it also make sense that my reads are really off because I’ve just ignored them.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Vote: Skitter30

I'm open to changing my mind tbh I don't like to blindly tunnel because I've definitely been wrong in my reads many times but this is where I am at right now.

I'll probably look over the game more and try to think bout the vote order more to see if I could just be missing a kazyan / Whemestar deep wolf cruising to easy town credit in a town that is eating itself but for now I am TRing them.

But I really do think that T3 dying was a super whack kill on my first read through and them TRing Samcro and SRing skitter makes me feel good about my reads at present. When I'm mafia I love to just snipe a guy who sussed me on d1 and barely anyone reviews logs the way I do and everyone just forgets and continues their current tunnels. T3 didn't do anything close to softing PR and he died over the SEs? And Skitter is just TRing their fellow SE in that situation? When I wake up in the AM with a good player at my side my first impulse is "why the hell are you alive?" Seems like a pocket to me.

Anyways sorry if I'm wrong but I'm placing my vote and actually would like to get a good BW on skitter. I understand the game is on pause but I want to see if I read the game correctly lol.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I also have a sense that there may be resistance to my push Skitter seems like a player that others will be intimidated from voting especially on day 2 but in my experience when you are town you have to vote with courage and can't just default to easy votes and my read of the game rn is Skitter scum. I may be TRing a mafia at present tbh but its okay. I just get a sinking feeling that voting between creative and samcro right now is exactly how town loses this game and I want to see Skitter flip scum and then go giggling off into the night .

So skitter, did you kill T3 last night because you PR read them or because they sussed you and would have defended against your shit push on Samcro? What's up?

[six pomegranate seeds]

[quote="In post 288, CreativeName"][/quote]

Tbh with you on my prelim ski of the game you weren't really pinging scum to me it's just I ended up TRing the others besides skimmer. This quote from you actually does ping town and you do have some other town quotes tbqh. That's why I said in my reads I cannot bring myself to vote you rightn now because I get a sinking feeling you and sacmro could be town on town and the mafia are strong players.

My major question to you creative is why are you TRing skimmer the most? If you read through my observations how do you disagree?

[six pomegranate seeds]

Also Creative, to me I really cannot bring myself to think that sacmro is mafia. He seems like a new player lashing out in response to being suspected and if you are really town I think you are just caught in the crossfire. You say that new players can fake confidence, I have never seen a new player straight up say you are mafia for sure i don't care if I am voted vote that guy next. If he is mafia I will honestly be very surprised and willing to lose the game. I'd rather go with my reads.

If you weren't to tunnel on samcro, who else would you vote creative?

[six pomegranate seeds]

I have seen one of her recent games as scum and she seemed to act different, less serious and more layed back, it's less likely skitter is scum, I feel strongly that it's samcro since pooky did call him out as being "mafia or misguided" and I think samcro is a strong player and not misguided, and sam is pushing skitter hard too, it's unlikely it's a bus so in my eyes samcro is scum and spewed skitter town

If you look samcro was sussing me and skitter when we were not sussing him after he did a full 180 on pooky

If not voting Samcro, wheme is acting unlike an SE or feels like he is trying to draw out a day where town is doing nothing

Is this not Samcro's first game? I thought they were a newbie. Their join date is 2/24.

In any case - do you seriously think Samcro would be so convinced you are mafia he would nakedly open wolf and vote to eliminate a player he thought was town? I don't know maybe I am using the too scummy to be scum argument which is not a good argument. But he has so many town ping quotes over the course of the game - the level of proactivity and aggression he had in calling you out on day 1 are not common for a newbie mafia. #218, #269, #270, #272, #274, #275, #278 all ping super town. As does claiming VT frame 1. I am telling you I am not willing vote vote samcro today - I will defend him to the death. Only if skitter or you were to become confirmed town would I agree.

I can't say that I've ever played with any of you so I have no way to meta read skitter. But I think her susses feel off and she is pushing one of my strong TRs. She lives through N2 over a newbie who sussed her and TR samcro. I think creative if you are really town I would say that you should learn to pay attention to these details, strong players rarely give themselves away by how much effort or how serious they seem to be playing unless they just don’t feel like trying as mafia.

But since you guys have seemed to have played with skitter, what is skitter like as scum? I am just assuming they would be a very strong scum from their signature, and imo strong scum tend to play similarly. And being laid back is not something strong scum tend to do too often.

I am not going to allow you guys to vote samcro today, I am convinced that is a miselim and i will defend him to the death. If I am a total fool, then I am a total fool - but I’m not going to let you guys vote my TR.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Vote me, just know when I flip town you were got by SAMCRO and his partner (I now see this as possibly Wheme or seeds)

Pooky's dying words were that SAMCRO is probably mafia and somehow seeds in their backreading has skimmed over that

Not true at all. Pooky's dying words were literally you are mafia or misguided. I took very close notice of that, you even quoted the exact words in an earlier response to me.

Pooky was not hard saying that SAMCRO was scum, mafia or misguided can be applied to many towns memebers. His literal last words were "Its up to you guys to figure out whether they hammered me as town or maf." There are many other reasons to town read samcro imo that i have outlined prior but you seem to not care about. SAMCRO is an awful vote today, I actually had almost forgotten that #213 looks like a town slip as I put in my prior post until kazyan pointed out.

The fact that you are fighting so hard makes you seem townier at the present moment - you should take note that even though I have light sussed you I have not voted you or expressed a clear desire to vote you. I will be clear that if it comes down to voting between you or SAMCRO I will vote you.

From my POV the entire town is TRing Skimmer for reasons beyond my understanding and I think that is an error.

Perhaps Kazyan is partnered with skimmer and attempting to get me off my sus and vote into a TvT vote pool by leveraging his prior accumulated town credit, or maybe I am thinking too far into it.

In any case, the two of you are TRing skimmer for "vibes" and if she is truly a strong mafia that is a horrendous reason to TR someone.

For example kazyan, that quote that you provided to me is Skimmer the skilled SE tunneling onto an obvious town without a second thought after the JK just died saying he was obvious town. That is a very scummy quote - that is not a good vibes quote.

I admit I could be wrong on the skimmer read, but nothing posted to argue against me so far is convincing. What is skimmer like as mafia?

[six pomegranate seeds]

Vote me, just know when I flip town you were got by SAMCRO and his partner (I now see this as possibly Wheme or seeds)

Pooky's dying words were that SAMCRO is probably mafia and somehow seeds in their backreading has skimmed over that

I have no idea how you went from TRing my slot to retroactively saying my slot was scummy on D1 when the only new info was that now I had you towards the scummier end of the game on my reads and provided infinitely more than my predecessor.

I also do not appreciate being told that my reads are bad, regardless of whether they are wrong or not. It is obnoxious to do so - although in my experience when someone tells me my reads are bad and are obnoxious or rude they tend to be town.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Newbie 2055

I have just joined this game I do not have the same sense of time that you do, I've not really been paying attention to what day certain things happen. It seems like a townslip to me because if you were mafia submitting your night kill to kill someone how would you have forgotten the game was going on? You literally had to have done your night action just a little bit prior. I admit I have not looked at time stamps in my reasoning. But if the night kill was completed on 3/5 and samcro's first response to the day phase starting is "I forgot about this game" he's either a mafia intentionally trying to pretend he didn't just do a night action or he is a simply a town who forgot about the game because he's actually VT as he claimd frame 1 and did not have a night action. I assume the night action took place over the course of 3/2-3/5 according to time stamps its understandable a VT may forget about the game. It's not a 100% townnslip but I think it's more likely it was a VT forgetting the game was happening during night phase than a malicious mafia lying about doing a night action to hopefully gain town credit - which is nigh impossible for a mafia to predict I am going to join the game and point that out.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Not true at all. Pooky's dying words were literally you are mafia or misguided. I took very close notice of that, you even quoted the exact words in an earlier response to me.

Hence why I paraphrased as probably, meaning maybe scum not definately scum, this seems a hard defend on samcro, who baring in mind was 100% on pooky being town and 10000% on me being scum which no town is ever that confident in their reads, if you were that confident why do they need to play newbie games and surely that would point to it not being their first game overall (in other places), and which you said it was SAMCRO's first game earlier. either their reads are completely fabricated and they just put on the confident bravado to push the miselims and you're hard defending a scum, or it's not their first game and they know what they're doing and so could be a very convincing wolf

People who are new actually tend to have way more confidence as town because they have no sense of their own falibility. Like the dunning kruger effect, people with low ability can't appreciate their low ability and are overconfident. That is what makes the most sense to me in this situation because so many other things about Samcro seem town.

I am absolutely hard defending samcro, I am town and I think he is town and this vote is wasted on him. I can review skimmers logs in the game you have provided.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Vote me, just know when I flip town you were got by SAMCRO and his partner (I now see this as possibly Wheme or seeds)

Pooky's dying words were that SAMCRO is probably mafia and somehow seeds in their backreading has skimmed over that

I have no idea how you went from TRing my slot to retroactively saying my slot was scummy on D1 when the only new info was that now I had you towards the scummier end of the game on my reads and provided infinitely more than my predecessor.

I also do not appreciate being told that my reads are bad, regardless of whether they are wrong or not. It is obnoxious to do so - although in my experience when someone tells me my reads are bad and are obnoxious or rude they tend to be town.

your demeinor, also you seem to hard defend samcro who is in my eyes scum, griff was not active so I kinda town leaned him because he seemed vaguely solvey but i did think it was suspicious to BW on pooky just because, also it's strange that T3 died when he was mostly low activity which hints at maybe a newbie team who don't know that ia is good for town, and if it wasn't samcro why am I still alive? because mafia without me could easily kill me and pin it on samcro.

Also text walls to me are a "I am posting this for town points" usually they slow down town who have to read it all and are filled with fluff and filler text. They also usually repeat info to make people look more/less scummy/towny than they actually have been acting

I know I am town, hopefully when samcro flips scum or I flip town, town will see that the only really logical scum choice is samcro

So what happens when Sam flips town? You keep ignoring me... I'm pretty certain on skitter/you/seeds, kinda just trying to figure out the town in it, I almost feel like you and seeds right now are partners? idk. you're just ignoring me and only paying attention to seeds, a bit weird in my opinion, considering, you said you TRed seeds's slot before, and there was nothing to read my slot from

I agree with you that my slot could easily appear scummy from d1 alone. But do you think it makes sense that if you think that skimmer is mafia they would TR my slot for doing almost nothing on d1? And I am the one who came into this day hard pushing skimmer when everyone else thought they were town?

You say that the game should be auto from my POV, but as I have stated in my previous statements, I am unsure that the Creative/Skimmer solve fits together nicely. I can review their interactions on d1 but when I'm mafia I don't normally openly TR my own mafia very early d1 like skimmer did to creative.

I also think that creative calling me bad at reads is a little town pinging because people who are rude tend to be townspeople imo but this is a bad habit of mine because it rewards mafia for being obnoxious and makes the game worse.

Also lol at you guys trying to pair me with skitter, okay then vote her . But in all honesty lets let her talk before I get too high on the kool aid of feeling like I'm right.

Creative is basically just omgussing me for trying to gamesolve and putting him in the scum lean bean. Andante is solvey but I am just posting paragraphs

[six pomegranate seeds]

One thing I don't get though, skitter and Creative are voting SAM, would both maf partners vote together???

This is exactly why I am unsatisfied with the Creative/Skitter scum team and am open to other solves. Skitter TR creative early and they both make an identical scumcase on SAM in the day chat. Seems like they wouldn't do that as partners.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Vote Count 2-4

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Interested in reading it? You can find it at Project Gutenberg.

CreativeName

(2): SAMCRO, Kazyan

SAMCRO

(2): skitter30, CreativeName

skitter30

(1): six pomegranate seeds

Not Voting

(2): Andante, WhemeStar

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

Revised deadline: March 13, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-03-12 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

Its ok kazayan. You can call me seeds! I admit you could be right that creative is scum, but I'd rather vote skimmer first. Idk maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you agree that SAM is probably town doesn't post 207 look scummy to you? But I admit skimmer later backed off a little bit when SAM said he would get everyone to agree to go creative -> Skimmer.

[six pomegranate seeds]

So my issue with Seeds is I always townread wall posts for 0 reason so I basically townread seeds but I also share very similar reads with seeds, I would probalby change skitter's/creatives spot

Lol sorry, it was the only way for me to process so much information in one setting. What is your read on skitter and creative so far, could I ask you to elaborate?

[six pomegranate seeds]

Newbie 2055

I read this iso, she subbed in in like the endgame almost and the only gameplay was fake claiming cop. In this game her starting from the beginning it would be very different regardless of aligment. Also she wasn't laid back at all in this game she comes into the game fake claiming cop with a red check its her very first post. So I don't agree with this laid back thing as a meta read from the evidence I have so far.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Vote Count 2-4

The planet Mars has inspired fictional accounts since before the term "science fiction" existed. One of the first novels about the planet was "Across the Zodiac", by Percy Greg, published in 1880. Greg is also known as an originator of a genre of fiction called Sword and Planet. In the novel, an unnamed narrator flew his ship, the Astronaut, to Mars using an anti-gravitational energy called apergy. The planet was inhabited by a race of diminutive beings who believed there was no life elsewhere in the universe, beyond their own planet. The novel also featured an alien language -- possibly the first of its kind.

Interested in reading it? You can find it at Project Gutenberg.

CreativeName

(2): SAMCRO, Kazyan

SAMCRO

(2): skitter30, CreativeName

skitter30

(1): six pomegranate seeds

Not Voting

(2): Andante, WhemeStar

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

Revised deadline: March 13, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-03-12 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

Its ok kazayan. You can call me seeds! I admit you could be right that creative is scum, but I'd rather vote skimmer first. Idk maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you agree that SAM is probably town doesn't post 207 look scummy to you? But I admit skimmer later backed off a little bit when SAM said he would get everyone to agree to go creative -> Skimmer.

Why did you quote the mod message?

Also I noticed you are getting one or two names wrong and it's very confusing

You're calling Skitter, "Skimmer" and Pooky, "Spooky". It gets confusing on what you mean, it may also show a lack of interest as you apparently read everything so how would you not notice two actives names and end up keep spelling them wrong, did you not notice everyone is referring tho them by different names to what you are?

Lol big deal the spooky thing is autocorrect I just forgot Skitter's name this is my first time meeting any of you. It's laughable to say I am disinterested I've posted a ton today.

Also the idea that any of you are pairing me with Skitter right now is just major lols. "Unvoting here is suicide" changing your mind and looking for mafia is actually quite townie, idk what you think.

Anyway I don't think I'll make much more progress until skitter comes back and we can chat and I'll try to get a sense if I still think she's scum.

[six pomegranate seeds]

My issue with reading is like, if one of yall have the exact same read as me, I want to insta TR it then I have the whole conf bias thing. idk, I can't wait to meet skitter

I find it interesting seeds never commented on calling skitter the wrong thing, well after they referred to skitter as skitter...

If you seriously think that me forgetting some random person's name by one letter and autocorrect making pooky spooky makes me scum then thats legit funny Also my keyboard is messed up so I've been having a lot of typos recently because I have to reclick on the letters a lot. I spilled some stuff on the keyboard.

[six pomegranate seeds]

My issue with reading is like, if one of yall have the exact same read as me, I want to insta TR it then I have the whole conf bias thing. idk, I can't wait to meet skitter

I find it interesting seeds never commented on calling skitter the wrong thing, well after they referred to skitter as skitter...

Also just FYI I do have other things I have to do besides play this game - me answering your questions instantly is not scummy I'm doing other stuff. I have a few days off from work but my activity is going to drop dramatically when work starts again. Overall I have a good chunk of free time over these next two weeks.

This is also why I'm reserved on the skimmer vote because I'd like to talk to her when she comes home from work before I make any final decision. Also it's interesting you decided to unvote.

[six pomegranate seeds]

What autocorrect do you have on your desktop? most autocorrect is mobile devices not pc/laptop and if they have it it's in applications like word, not on a forum on a browser?

I type a lot of my posts into notes on my laptop before i post and pooky autocorrects to spooky, idk why this is so pivotal to your reads tbh.

[six pomegranate seeds]

guys i'll be here shortly but 2055 is still ongoing and it's very, very, very illegal to talk about it since the game isn't over yet

Okay very sorry, didn't know it was incomplete and was unaware of the rules.

[six pomegranate seeds]

pom can you give like a 3 sentence summary of what you think my scumgame looks like please?

No idea I've never played with you. But your signature implies you are a strong scum and a strong scum will not be sussed by the other players when they are scum and will push Miselims on my TRs which is what is happening here.

I think that T3 kill was very out of place when first reading through the game and on my reread his only real SR was you. You can call that a frame but I think it's significant, people who die typically die for a reason T3 didn't really seem like a usual night kill candidate from reading through D1.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Pooky's dying words were that SAMCRO is probably mafia and somehow seeds in their backreading has skimmed over that

yeah just noting that it's fairly interesting that he's giving T3's reads such weight cuz he's flipped town, but isn't really doing hte same with pooky's

Pooky did not have strong reads, he said wow thats not very townie to vote me to prove a point to SAMCRO you're either mafia or misguided town. It's up to the town to figure out whether T3 and SAMCRO are mafia good luck.

T3 said you were suspicious in multiple posts throughout day 1 and was consistent in his SR, it wasn't a vague last second maybe he is maybe he isn't we'll have to find out! kind of statement.

As for the gaslighting statement maybe this is too strong a word but specifically #276 I believe it was it feels to me that SAMCRO is spewing town here and your response is along the lines of "well no one is going to listen to you" instead of getting townpings from his statement. Although I admit later on at some point you do eventually say well maybe that was townie. The "well no one is listening to you" is probably mean to call gaslighting, but it feels like an experienced player bullying on a new player who has them sorted because they don't have anything else to say.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Newbie 2055

I have just joined this game I do not have the same sense of time that you do, I've not really been paying attention to what day certain things happen. It seems like a townslip to me because if you were mafia submitting your night kill to kill someone how would you have forgotten the game was going on? You literally had to have done your night action just a little bit prior. I admit I have not looked at time stamps in my reasoning. But if the night kill was completed on 3/5 and samcro's first response to the day phase starting is "I forgot about this game" he's either a mafia intentionally trying to pretend he didn't just do a night action or he is a simply a town who forgot about the game because he's actually VT as he claimd frame 1 and did not have a night action. I assume the night action took place over the course of 3/2-3/5 according to time stamps its understandable a VT may forget about the game. It's not a 100% townnslip but I think it's more likely it was a VT forgetting the game was happening during night phase than a malicious mafia lying about doing a night action to hopefully gain town credit - which is nigh impossible for a mafia to predict I am going to join the game and point that out.

i'm not sure why you're not really taking into account the possibility that ... he's just lying about forgetting about the game?

I account for the possiblity that he's lying about forgetting about the game in the paragraph above that you quote. I think it is more likely he is a town that is just being honest. Thinking up the idea of faking a townslip then doing it as mafia then praying someone picks up that is a town slip is a lot of thought and effort that I just don't see coming from SAMCRO. I think it is more likely he is just town telling the truth. Do you disagree?

I think the most productive way for us to address each other is for you to explain if you truly think SAMCRO is supicious and wheter you want to vote them and why you think they are suspicious becauase a large portion of my SR on you is coming from you push on SAMCRO.

Otherwise I was rereading the beginning of the game and am open to voting Creative at this point, though I am still more interested in voting you at present.

[six pomegranate seeds]

This is just a reiteration that it's against the rules to refer to other games that are ongoing. Be careful going forward that games you mention have been finished and the game moderator has declared a winner. More about the rule here.

Yeah I just won't reference past games from now on I just was responding to Creative.

[six pomegranate seeds]

ok yeah that's what i figured you would say

sooooooo in the newbie queue there's this thing that happens where newbie scum get a particular vibe of my scumgame (either via my sig or via an SE partner, in this game the former) and decide to hype me up as a big bad scary scumplayer with a super strong scumgame and a lot of their case ultimately rides on the fact that i'm very good at scum, people should be afraid of my scumgame, and/or the game points to experienced scum

(incidentally i *do* have a very strong scumgame but this particular pattern/hyping it up in this way seems to exclusively happen in the newbie queue, it's happened i think 3 other times now)

seeds is basically going that last route, by saying that the kill must point to experienced scum, which means me

see lookee here, the 1961 game is the first time it happened and i've seen it happen at least 3 other times iirc.
zenith basically spent lylo hyping up my scumgame and trying to get the other player to vote me because 'she's good at scum!' and basically hyping up my scumgame and trying to scare the other player into voting me

am just assuming they would be a very strong scum from their signature

, and imo strong scum tend to play similarly.

Subject: Newbie 1961 | Trees II | Over

Hmm... All of a sudden is lagging much less..

I suppose if I were forced to vote someone right now. Due to the events leading to Vork's death I'm most wary of skitter right now.

Plus that skitter signature keeps staring at me.. =\

i have no idea why it's a thing but it's happened a bunch and i've never seen it come from town so like VOTE: seeds

So you are going to just double down on omgussing me rather than considering other scum or even explain why you SR sam? This doesn't seem very townie behavior from you to be honest. I am going to tell you for certain that if I am voted I will flip town, and if things continue on present course I will ask town to vote you blindly 100% in lylo. So I hope if this is the route you wish to go down that you are willing to lose the game for town with this omgus.

I have no idea about your past games but I am not pushing you in lylo - I am pushing you here in final 7 with one more elimination. If I am scum and you are town, I would obviously attempt to pocket you rather than pick a fight. I seriously question your judgment here in suspecting me.

I think actually pushing me here is very scummy because I am the only person suspecting you and you won't even have to waste a night kill on me.

You don't seem interested in engaging with my reads at all and instead are very quick to omgus it's hard for me to see that as town.

[six pomegranate seeds]

When I'm mafia I love to just snipe a guy who sussed me on d1 and barely anyone reviews logs the way I do and everyone just forgets and continues their current tunnels. T3 didn't do anything close to softing PR and he died over the SEs? And Skitter is just TRing their fellow SE in that situation? When I wake up in the AM with a good player at my side my first impulse is "why the hell are you alive?" Seems like a pocket to me.

- you're kinda indicating you think i have a strong scumgame. i don't just 'snipe a guy who sussed me d1' that way, esp. since (if T3 were vt) i nearly always win a fight against him, you're kinda ascribing a very naive/level-1 reason to the nk while also saying i have a strong scumgame, which don't really add up
- idk why he died, i don't have an explanation for it. i think in a vaccuum me or wheme die most of the time. but i'm town and i townread wheme and i never make that kill and i dont' think wheme does either so :shrug:

Maybe this is really how you play. I have no way of knowing. But I do think honoring the dead is a valid way of playing mafia. I kill people who sus me all the time. If there was a fight between you and T3 today I would have thought T3 was super town. Why does a newer player pick a fight with one of the strongest players in the lobby unless it's lylo.

I also think it's really lazy for you to just bin me in with some player I dont know from a past game. I put out a number of reasons to suspect you and I spent a good number of hours today reading the game carefully. You show up and in a few minutes your all of the sudden coninced I am mafia. And asking me for what i think your scumgame looks like feels like trying to set me up for an omgus, I obviously don't know what your scumgame looks like I have no idea who you are.

If you want to have a conversation with me tell me why you are sus of SAMCO. From what I read you think his bravado is fake. I seriously doubt a new player would play suicidal like that, exactly as T3 stated on d1.

[six pomegranate seeds]

So you are going to just double down on omgussing me rather than considering other scum or even explain why you SR sam? This doesn't seem very townie behavior from you to be honest. I am going to tell you for certain that if I am voted I will flip town, and if things continue on present course I will ask town to vote you blindly 100% in lylo. So I hope if this is the route you wish to go down that you are willing to lose the game for town with this omgus.

I have no idea about your past games but I am not pushing you in lylo - I am pushing you here in final 7 with one more elimination. If I am scum and you are town, I would obviously attempt to pocket you rather than pick a fight. I seriously question your judgment here in suspecting me.

I think actually pushing me here is very scummy because I am the only person suspecting you and you won't even have to waste a night kill on me.

You don't seem interested in engaging with my reads at all and instead are very quick to omgus it's hard for me to see that as town.

a) i'm not really sure how this is 'doubling-down' given that i never really scumread you before
b) i did explain why i scumread sam, i'm not sure why you're implying i didn't
c) i admire your pluck
d) and yeah, i'm not really sure *why* you chose to pick this fight, but apparently you did sooooooooooo
e) i'm not sure why you're questioning my judgement here in suspecting you - from my pov why is this a bad conclusion
f) the fact that you're scumreading me isn't inherently the problem, the problem is that *i think your read is bad and scummy*. you can't really argue that i'm just scumreading everyone who's scumreading me - i'm not scumreading adante, for example
g) i object to you reducing my scumread to omgus
h) also, not sure why you're saying i'm 'not interested in engagine with your reads at all?'

I obviously picked this fight because I am town who SR you after reading the game for a few hours. What about my read is bad and scummy? You are just lazily throwing me in a bin with a player from some past game who said "oh look at the signature." Then you ask me a question obviously meant to get me to say the same thing - you even admit your scum game is strong. I never said those words without your prompting. I gave a number of other reasons to SR you. What did you think my answer would be "I think you would be a really terrible mafia who would out themselves at first chance?" I was very open to swapping my vote, but you just showing up and instantly SRing me in 10 minutes after getting home is giving me major scum vibes now. If you are scum you obviously have commited to getting me miselimed and so omgussing the entire lobby is counterproductive - you need them to vote with you.

Doubling down refers to the fact you seem pretty sure I'm scum based on a single reaction test where you basically put words in my mouth.

I am going to flip town 100% if I don't live until the end of this game. If you are town you have completely misread my alignment.

[six pomegranate seeds]

ok yeah that's what i figured you would say

sooooooo in the newbie queue there's this thing that happens where newbie scum get a particular vibe of my scumgame (either via my sig or via an SE partner, in this game the former) and decide to hype me up as a big bad scary scumplayer with a super strong scumgame and a lot of their case ultimately rides on the fact that i'm very good at scum, people should be afraid of my scumgame, and/or the game points to experienced scum

(incidentally i *do* have a very strong scumgame but this particular pattern/hyping it up in this way seems to exclusively happen in the newbie queue, it's happened i think 3 other times now)

seeds is basically going that last route, by saying that the kill must point to experienced scum, which means me

see lookee here, the 1961 game is the first time it happened and i've seen it happen at least 3 other times iirc.
zenith basically spent lylo hyping up my scumgame and trying to get the other player to vote me because 'she's good at scum!' and basically hyping up my scumgame and trying to scare the other player into voting me

am just assuming they would be a very strong scum from their signature

, and imo strong scum tend to play similarly.

Subject: Newbie 1961 | Trees II | Over

Hmm... All of a sudden is lagging much less..

I suppose if I were forced to vote someone right now. Due to the events leading to Vork's death I'm most wary of skitter right now.

Plus that skitter signature keeps staring at me.. =\

i have no idea why it's a thing but it's happened a bunch and i've never seen it come from town so like VOTE: seeds

Oh and by the way I never said the kill points to experienced scum. I said it points to you specifically (not wheme) because T3 susses you and TR'd your d2 push as an easy town. It reads as you removing a roadblock to your easy miselim because SAMCO played the EOD 1 very sus and no other players were TRing them besides Wheme, but I don't think he openly TR'd SAMCO on d1. There is much more nuance to my read than you are perceiving. Honestly it doesnt feel like you're reading what I'm writing.

[six pomegranate seeds]

When I'm mafia I love to just snipe a guy who sussed me on d1 and barely anyone reviews logs the way I do and everyone just forgets and continues their current tunnels. T3 didn't do anything close to softing PR and he died over the SEs? And Skitter is just TRing their fellow SE in that situation? When I wake up in the AM with a good player at my side my first impulse is "why the hell are you alive?" Seems like a pocket to me.

- you're kinda indicating you think i have a strong scumgame. i don't just 'snipe a guy who sussed me d1' that way, esp. since (if T3 were vt) i nearly always win a fight against him, you're kinda ascribing a very naive/level-1 reason to the nk while also saying i have a strong scumgame, which don't really add up
- idk why he died, i don't have an explanation for it. i think in a vaccuum me or wheme die most of the time. but i'm town and i townread wheme and i never make that kill and i dont' think wheme does either so :shrug:

I don't think T3 is a level 1 night kill. I've played enough mafia to know that people's vote pools don't tend to radically change day to day. It is absolutely optimal to remove players who have you in their votepool as mafia, players have a hard time changing their minds on reads as you can see from the SAMCO/creative fight playing out. If you can take out players who will push you next day and make you the center of attention, you absolutely benefit as a mafia. Implying that killing someone who suspected you is low level mafia play and therefore incompatable with your perception of my idea of your mafia play is simply not true.

I admit that my reads can simply be wrong on SAMCO and perhaps I am reading too much into you pushing what seems to me like ez town.

[six pomegranate seeds]

seeds i gotta bounce for rn/tonight but i will circle back later if i can and if not tomorrow (i.e. that means after work)

Ok. This game is turning out to be more stressful than I anticipated to be honest. I'm used to games being over after a couple hours at most and then getting to unwind.

I'll be clear that I am still open towards changing my mind, but I don't think this interaction has made me change my mind about you being scummy.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I will probably take a breather and think things over.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Ok im here.

Seeds what do you think of creative?
Andante what do you think of creative?

Im much more confident with a Creative vote here than I am a skitter vote.

My brain a little mushy right now to be honest. Arguing too much lol.

Creative was my second sus after skitter. They had some quotes that ping town specifically them being rude to me and calling me bad at making reads but maybe this isn't a good reason to TR someone.

If there is some world that I am reading the game backwards and SAMCO is somehow mafia that is unfortunate, but it feels scummy from Creative that they reversed their town read on me after I came out and gave actual content and retroactively called my slot's d1 sus only after learning I had them scum leaning. It also feels scummy that Creative is pushing SAMCO because I'm reading SAMCO town.

My initial gut response to you is that I'd be willing to vote creative but I think I should review logs a little more before doing so. There are a lot of points where they express thoughts like oh no i thought he was hammered which you can either TR or write off as LAMIST where I am uncertain which way to fall. I also don't think skitter and Creative make sense as THE scum pair because they literally gave the same reasoning for voting him and openly voted together. Creative is also the only non-TR I have who is on the miselim wagon on d1.

So in conclusion, I think creative is not a bad vote here. I want to review the logs more though.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I am not confirmed scum because of 1 misread? Like how does that confirm I am scum

Also we can afford 1 more miselim because it would take it to 3 v 2, so sure eliminate me, because I am town, how much are you willing to bet I am scum, you getting Lynched next day?, My reads being used to eliminate you and your scum buddy, because you seem so sure I am scum for a humble vanilla townie who has no extra info, if you are that good at reads idk why we haven't eliminated the mafia by now, or are you mafia and you know I am town, so you're too afraid to vote me because when I flip town you'll be the next one to go. How sure are you that I am scum, are you sure enough to take a 100:1 odds paying $100? or are you not sure as if you were sure i was confirmed scum you wouldn't need to ask if we could afford a miselim now would you?

I'm just isoing creative and a bunch of his stuff pings town to me. There's another post where he asks if there is an incriminating tracker or FN result. Idk I feel like I rarely ask about stuff like that as mafia. Him swapping his read on me can just be fear from being sussed.

His saying i can't swap votes or I'll die I can't get a read on, I normally TR more not giving a crap about dying but he seems like a guy who would try hard as mafia. I feel like my intellectual inertia could just let me swing onto creative but its a less satisfying SR than skitter. Creative has played pretty well if they are mafia.

I do think he was looking for a little too much in the early game reads making pooky/wheme non associated reads and he is over exlaining things at points make him seem scummy. I also really don't like his SR on SAMCO. But idk this game takes a lot of endurance to be honest with you I could go in circles all night.

I feel like if Creative is somehow town maybe that would make Kazyan a deep wolf. He said he would play conciliatory in the beginning which seems kinda a maf thing to say. Town normally seems more abrassive. He seems a little conciliatory in the way he said oh wait I didn't notice that town slip wow I was not picking up on town vibes no wonder you are afraid of me. But I dont want to SR people for being nice and I thought Kazyan's reactions to Creative's somewhat reach of reads early game pinged town. Maybe there is exactly one mafia between creative and kazyan just from the way kazyan has pushed creative throughout the game. If creative were to flip blue maybe I'd reconsider my Kazyan read.

Also at some point wheme you should tell us about your read on creative. I honestly TR you for going creative is town to creative is not so town just from one quote. You should eventually explain.

Idk what to make of the guy in Meagen's spot to be honest with you. Part of me just wants to townbin him off of a feeling that mafia wouldn't afk and screw their partner.

Thinking it over it may just be a good idea to flip creative now if only because he seems like he will tunnel SAMCO in ELO and I think I'm sort of just at the point where if SAMCO is scum I'm going to lose the game.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Idk I just have this sinking feeling in my stomach that Creative would flip town and town will be screwed. I don't think town gets two mafia back to back in ELO. Idk maybe I need to sleep on this.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I think I really just have to comit to SAMCO TR as the north star. I honestly think he townslipped saying he forgot about the game because he didn't have night actions and so wasn''t doing anything for 3 days, he played so hella aggressive at points and had no fear of being voted just wanted his susses voted next. Also asking if we have another miselim at the beginning of the day. I think that these kind of town slip tactics are really lame to pull out as mafia, and I just want to believe he is town for these things. I'll go crazy if I dont just listen to my heart and TR SAMCO.

I'll just leave it at that for tonight unless other people post or I'll drive myself crazy.

[six pomegranate seeds]

that's fair - sorry i just got a massive headache and think i'm gonna lie down for a bit - but i will circle back when i can, i think it's important to address all of your points but dont' think i can atm
out of curiosity, what's your homesite?

Its mafia.gg

[six pomegranate seeds]

Just random thoughts in my head as I go to sleep. I think a lot of the game hinges on #167. This is the one moment when SAMCRO is either a really misguided villager lashing out at the world in anger or he is open wolfing. Skitter SRs him for this post. I've been rereading it over and over. It's such a strong play for mafia to play dumb to excuse their antitown behaviors. But Samcro wears the misguided town hat so well over the course of the game. The "I forgot the game was going on. Do we have another miselim? You are so scum I'm laughing." Would this guy seriously just openly out as mafia just to get Pooky voted? There was that phrase that creative brings up - basically too scummy to be scum. Can this seriously all be an act from SAMCRO? If I entertain the world where SAMCRO is the mafia then Creatie and Skitter will seem town. The partner in that situation might be kazyan for the reaon that wheme is the first to TR SAMCRO when no one else was willing to which does not seem like a mafia move to make, and would align with Skitter's read that T3 nk is not consitent with wheme as a mafia. Then Kazyan votes creative after pushing the one maf one town world in SAMCRO / Creative, then plays up me calling the town slip on SAMCRO's part to insulate his partner and get the pocket on me. Then calls me easy town for late night gamesolving.

Imo this theory as of now seems crackpot but I want to right it down so I remember I thought of it and can refer back in case I am really confused later.

My gut instinct going to sleep is that Kazyan just seems like a town who can see that I am town here. I'm not sure who I want to vote right now tbh with you. I dont like that both kazyan and Wheme and Creative all TR skitter at least a little more than I do. Doesn't sit well with me. Feels like a mafia move to TR skitter here regardless of skitter's alignment. I'll just go to sleep with an open mind and think about it tomorrow. Good night.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I'm awake now. Creative found my d1 counterpart scummy for going along with whatever the others were doing and now he is doing exactly the same. "Less people find SAMCO scummy than seeds so now I will switch to seeds." Lol. And you called me bad at scum hunting. Once again, I point out to you Creative that you thought my d1 counterpart was town when we first met. You seem quite opportunistic right now, or just mad salty.

Whatever, this is my first game. I don't really care if you guys find me suspicious, today is my last day off so I'll take some time to think things over and then see where I want to vote.

As for me commenting about night kills, the things that dead people say are meaningful and I take them into account when formulating reads. I am not angry about any sort of night kill, but I like to honor thoughts that the dead had.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Just random thoughts in my head as I go to sleep. I think a lot of the game hinges on #167. This is the one moment when SAMCRO is either a really misguided villager lashing out at the world in anger or he is open wolfing. Skitter SRs him for this post. I've been rereading it over and over. It's such a strong play for mafia to play dumb to excuse their antitown behaviors. But Samcro wears the misguided town hat so well over the course of the game. The "I forgot the game was going on. Do we have another miselim? You are so scum I'm laughing." Would this guy seriously just openly out as mafia just to get Pooky voted? There was that phrase that creative brings up - basically too scummy to be scum. Can this seriously all be an act from SAMCRO? If I entertain the world where SAMCRO is the mafia then Creatie and Skitter will seem town. The partner in that situation might be kazyan for the reaon that wheme is the first to TR SAMCRO when no one else was willing to which does not seem like a mafia move to make, and would align with Skitter's read that T3 nk is not consitent with wheme as a mafia. Then Kazyan votes creative after pushing the one maf one town world in SAMCRO / Creative, then plays up me calling the town slip on SAMCRO's part to insulate his partner and get the pocket on me. Then calls me easy town for late night gamesolving.

Imo this theory as of now seems crackpot but I want to right it down so I remember I thought of it and can refer back in case I am really confused later.

My gut instinct going to sleep is that Kazyan just seems like a town who can see that I am town here. I'm not sure who I want to vote right now tbh with you. I dont like that both kazyan and Wheme and Creative all TR skitter at least a little more than I do. Doesn't sit well with me. Feels like a mafia move to TR skitter here regardless of skitter's alignment. I'll just go to sleep with an open mind and think about it tomorrow. Good night.

Surely if he is a true newbie like you say he is then he'll not realise he is basically openly broadcasting he is scum, usually newbie towns don't actually act scummy because they're inactive or they're letting the more experienced people solve it for them

No I've seen newbie town have very strong feelings in their first game. They just typically can't really explain things. The first game I played with my cousin for example she super hard SR me and was convinced I was mafia. She just wasn't really able to explain why.

I've not seen a newbie mafia come out guns blazing calling other players claimed mafia on day 1 and then tell the town to just get creative -> skitter when hie flips blue. That's not even confidence it's just having conviction in a gut read as a town in most cases. The way you keep putting percentages on things is actually kind of suspicious 70-80% lol. You SR them you null them or you TR them. There's no 70-80%.

[six pomegranate seeds]

ok, seeds's comments about the n1 kill, and the fact I feel like there has been many feels weird to me, almost like he's mad griff picked them, idk.


Note about Skitter, the post at #406, I felt was pretty good, like, I'm not entirely sure a scum!skitter would have worded it that way, one thing I'm not sure about on skitter is their post #149, to me 147 felt super scummy, then skitter TRed it?? idk, I'm no longer feeling a skitter elim here tbh which then makes me go, ok, who do I want here...

#375 creative went "If sam is scum" after saying sam was their strongest sr??

I'm thinking an elim in kaz/creative tbh

It's hard for me to TR skitter for #406, does reducing everything I said to some other random player who it appears lightly shaded her in lylo and brought up her signature seem town to you? I do agree that #147 seems scummy in the same way SAMCO seems scummy for voting pooky to prove a point, but I honestly think scum would be more subtle in how they end up on a miselim bw rather than openly announcing "I am joining the bw in a super scummy way everyone!"

It is somewhat annoying SAMCO doesn't show up to talk at all.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I also think a seeds elim is a good option today, it feels like he came in and realised his partner was open wolfing and needed to protect him, plus more people have SRed him than SAMCRO

VOTE: Seeds

I love how you can't even entertain that I am just TRing SAMCRO as a town person, and the way you only entertain vote options who have equal votes to people voting you is also just so sheeplike. Self-preservation voting is really not townie.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Thought it would be interesting to count up the post count so I'll put it here this is D2 post count for all players i've never played forum before just by post count it kind of makes me eye kazyan a little more than I was before. Sucks he's the only guy TRing me lol.

Skitter 49
Kazyan 23
CreativeName 47
Samcro 15
Where 30
6pom 46
Andante 20

[six pomegranate seeds]

I don't think T3 is a level 1 night kill. I've played enough mafia to know that people's vote pools don't tend to radically change day to day. It is absolutely optimal to remove players who have you in their votepool as mafia, players have a hard time changing their minds on reads as you can see from the SAMCO/creative fight playing out. If you can take out players who will push you next day and make you the center of attention, you absolutely benefit as a mafia. Implying that killing someone who suspected you is low level mafia play and therefore incompatable with your perception of my idea of your mafia play is simply not true.

I admit that my reads can simply be wrong on SAMCO and perhaps I am reading too much into you pushing what seems to me like ez town.

I think i basically addressed 415 in my last post

T3 is a bizarre kill. Its nkt inherently a level1 kill, but saying i did it because he sus'd me would be a very level1 reason for me to make that kill, and i'm objecting to the notion that i would have made that kill for that reason, i would have looked for a pr or killed like kazyen (or something), it wouldnt have been t3. Like killing t3 for that reason basically posits that i'd be scared or worried about getting into a thing with him the next day, ans i am most assuredly not, but you seem to be indicating that i am

Well maybe this is the way you think. If it came down to you vs. T3 I would have voted you without a second thought. Maybe this is the way that you play then and I am overthinking things. I think everyone else in the lobby TRing you is a red flag to me that my suspicion may be off. I think if there were fewer mafia in the periphery more people would have jumped on you when I submitted my initial suspicion but I got a lot of "hey hey cool off."

[six pomegranate seeds]

Maybe this is really how you play. I have no way of knowing. But I do think honoring the dead is a valid way of playing mafia. I kill people who sus me all the time. If there was a fight between you and T3 today I would have thought T3 was super town. Why does a newer player pick a fight with one of the strongest players in the lobby unless it's lylo.

I also think it's really lazy for you to just bin me in with some player I dont know from a past game. I put out a number of reasons to suspect you and I spent a good number of hours today reading the game carefully. You show up and in a few minutes your all of the sudden coninced I am mafia. And asking me for what i think your scumgame looks like feels like trying to set me up for an omgus, I obviously don't know what your scumgame looks like I have no idea who you are.

If you want to have a conversation with me tell me why you are sus of SAMCO. From what I read you think his bravado is fake. I seriously doubt a new player would play suicidal like that, exactly as T3 stated on d1.

(I'm bored at work but i might have to leave before i get to everything, i will return and finish later tonight if that's the case)

Ok a few things:
- i'm not being lazy by 'binning you with some player from a past game'. I'm calling out a specific pattern that features specific elements that's happened at least three times before, and i've only seen it come from scum. I've never seen it come from town, and you fit the pattern to a T. I'm not sure why you're handwaving this away
- i also object to you reducing the scumread to omgus, when i laid out a very specific reason for why i think you're scum
- i could make an assumption of how you viewed my scumgame given how you interacted with me, but i asked you to doublecheck my assumption before i rolled out mu conclusion - if you had answered something contrary/different, i would have rethought the read, but you didnt, so. And you clearly did have some sort of preconceived notion, even if you'd now like to say otherwise
- i think i already explained why i was sus of samcro: the bravado ans aggression eod1 looked fake to me. I also said today that he made a few posts that i liked, and that i was rethinking the read, a fact that you're kinda ignoring

Fine I am fitting a pattern that you think that only mafia can possible fit into. I am going to be clear why I SR you. You seemed to be pushing on one of my biggest TRs in the lobby, and are supposed to be an experienced player. Those two things do not add up. I was not subtly throwing shade on you for your signature. I thought you were pushing a bad suspicion as a good player - which is a good signal for scum in my eyes.

I did not ignore that you were coming around to town reading him - I made note of that several times in my posts. My question to you is - do you really think that SAMCRO is town and if so, who would you vote instead. I guess the answer is that you will vote me. Well I can tell you that I am town. I was not light shading you by suspecting you - I placed my vote on you when no one else did when the vote was clearly between creative samco. If I am mafia and you had previously TR my slot, why would I go about picking a fight with you?

So my question remains unanswered - do you still feel that SAMCO is mafia or would you want to swap votes? I can tell you for a fact I am town, so if you are really town and assume that I am town - then who would you vote?

[six pomegranate seeds]

It's hard for me to TR skitter for #406, does reducing everything I said to some other random player who it appears lightly shaded her in lylo and brought up her signature seem town to you? I do agree that #147 seems scummy in the same way SAMCO seems scummy for voting pooky to prove a point, but I honestly think scum would be more subtle in how they end up on a miselim bw rather than openly announcing "I am joining the bw in a super scummy way everyone!"

This is reductive and once again is trying to mitigate the point i'm making

Ok, maybe this is an argument that is coming from a town you. If you are really a town then I can tell you for a fact that my reason for scumming you is not just "the mafia must be really good this game." You say that I am reducing your reads, I feel exactly the same way about you.

Sometimes I just assume that a good town player will be better at correctly reading my alignment, maybe that is not always the case. But I feel like I have played this day quite townie, and the fact that you don't see that either means I am disappointed in your town play or that you are just scum.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I kinda dislike how you lay out several reasons to tr creative in 426 (similar to my own) but come to the conclusion you still want to flip him

I am conflicted about him being mafia. I've never played forum - but do mafia commonly have the highest post count? I've expressed multiple times that I am conflicted about voting creative. But there are things about him that ping scum, especially on d2. On day 1 his info dumps and reaching for reads early felt a little off. Him telling me that I was a TR from d1 then when I start actually speaking changing his mind and voting me is kind of lols. He says that I am paired with SAMCRO because I am defending him this hard, honestly I tend to be more of a busser in the games I play - I guess none of you know that. But if creative looks at how griff argues with SAMCRO #142 I don't really see how others view that as a possible pairing. He's even swapping his vote over his biggest suspicion in what appears to be an attempt to live because "more people are sussing seeds so I will swap votes." Swapping your vote off of your hard sus does not seem very townie to me, neither does self pres voting.

There is the possibility that I am wrong about SAMCRO being a town, in which case I've probably lost town this game by derailing when it seems that town was going to vote him. I do apologize to the townspeople if that ends up being the case. Maybe my d1 counterpart staying in the game would have been better for town in that case

I reread the game this morning Skitter, and I actually do remember from my initial skim agreeing with a lot of your reads before I entered the game. My concern at present - however, is that you seem quite convinced I am mafia to the point it seems you are more concerned with miselimming me than actually interacting with me. My suspicion on you was open to change once we interacted, but your suspicion on me feels like you are trying to muster the troops to vote me rather than exploring whether you think I am genuine or not. I can tell you my reads are 100% genuine so it feels off that you cannot see that.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Btw you can link posts using post-tags, and it would make it a little easier to go back and see ehat you're talking abt

Oh I see this option now, I will do from now on.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Maybe this is really how you play. I have no way of knowing. But I do think honoring the dead is a valid way of playing mafia. I kill people who sus me all the time. If there was a fight between you and T3 today I would have thought T3 was super town. Why does a newer player pick a fight with one of the strongest players in the lobby unless it's lylo.

I also think it's really lazy for you to just bin me in with some player I dont know from a past game. I put out a number of reasons to suspect you and I spent a good number of hours today reading the game carefully. You show up and in a few minutes your all of the sudden coninced I am mafia. And asking me for what i think your scumgame looks like feels like trying to set me up for an omgus, I obviously don't know what your scumgame looks like I have no idea who you are.

If you want to have a conversation with me tell me why you are sus of SAMCO. From what I read you think his bravado is fake. I seriously doubt a new player would play suicidal like that, exactly as T3 stated on d1.

(I'm bored at work but i might have to leave before i get to everything, i will return and finish later tonight if that's the case)

Ok a few things:
- i'm not being lazy by 'binning you with some player from a past game'. I'm calling out a specific pattern that features specific elements that's happened at least three times before, and i've only seen it come from scum. I've never seen it come from town, and you fit the pattern to a T. I'm not sure why you're handwaving this away
- i also object to you reducing the scumread to omgus, when i laid out a very specific reason for why i think you're scum
- i could make an assumption of how you viewed my scumgame given how you interacted with me, but i asked you to doublecheck my assumption before i rolled out mu conclusion - if you had answered something contrary/different, i would have rethought the read, but you didnt, so. And you clearly did have some sort of preconceived notion, even if you'd now like to say otherwise
- i think i already explained why i was sus of samcro: the bravado ans aggression eod1 looked fake to me. I also said today that he made a few posts that i liked, and that i was rethinking the read, a fact that you're kinda ignoring

Another comment - you've already admitted my preconceived notion is correct that you have a strong scum game. If you wear that signature around - what do you think people meeting you for the first time are going to think I really cannot understand how you scum read someone for thinking what any person would think based on the information available to them.

And the basis for my scum read on you is not "oh noes skitter so scurry big bad tiger" I've laid out that it felt like you were pushing one of my biggest TRs and the guy who died said that SAMCRO was easy town. Why does SAMCRO the scum elim a guy who just said he was obviously town and clearly would not vote him? To me T3 dying was like yup SAMCRO is obv town and your response is push him right off the bat. I don't like when strong players push my TRs, you admit you are a strong player - everything should add up quite easily from your POV why I SR you. Instead you call my read bad and scummy (I still have a hard time understanding why exactly you think this) and call Andante's read townie when he didn't give much reasoning and just said "skitter good vote - i can't see world where skitter town." To me this feels like you not really caring about sorting me properly and just getting people to vote me.

Anyways, I had already made the decision to drop my tunnel on you and come into this day with an open mind before deciding on my vote. If you guys decide to vote me I want to at least die voting a mafia while all of you will have voted a town

I actually understand the impulse SAMCRO if he was town had to flip Pooky just to see if he was right at this point. This game goes on forever.

[six pomegranate seeds]

ok, seeds's comments about the n1 kill, and the fact I feel like there has been many feels weird to me, almost like he's mad griff picked them, idk.


Note about Skitter, the post at #406, I felt was pretty good, like, I'm not entirely sure a scum!skitter would have worded it that way, one thing I'm not sure about on skitter is their post #149, to me 147 felt super scummy, then skitter TRed it?? idk, I'm no longer feeling a skitter elim here tbh which then makes me go, ok, who do I want here...

#375 creative went "If sam is scum" after saying sam was their strongest sr??

I'm thinking an elim in kaz/creative tbh

It's hard for me to TR skitter for #406, does reducing everything I said to some other random player who it appears lightly shaded her in lylo and brought up her signature seem town to you? I do agree that #147 seems scummy in the same way SAMCO seems scummy for voting pooky to prove a point, but I honestly think scum would be more subtle in how they end up on a miselim bw rather than openly announcing "I am joining the bw in a super scummy way everyone!"

It is somewhat annoying SAMCO doesn't show up to talk at all.

In #406,
"sooooooo in the newbie queue there's this thing that happens where newbie scum get a particular vibe of my scumgame (either via my sig or via an SE partner, in this game the former) and decide to hype me up as a big bad scary scumplayer with a super strong scumgame and a lot of their case ultimately rides on the fact that i'm very good at scum, people should be afraid of my scumgame, and/or the game points to experienced scum

(incidentally i *do* have a very strong scumgame but this particular pattern/hyping it up in this way seems to exclusively happen in the newbie queue, it's happened i think 3 other times now)"

I TR this part, like, idk, a lot of me feels like scum wouldn't want to start talking about their scum game, or at least, town would be more willing to discuss it.

And your next comment about the "self preservation vote" I think Creative realized the sam wagon wasn't going anywhere, and you haven't exactly been towny, but the resistance to the sam wagon kinda makes me sus there... I need to just ISO everyone, my reads are literally falling apart and I am crazy unsure right now

I think I do TR you tbf, I'm at the same point where my reads are falling apart so it feels very townie of you to say that.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Nvm creative is not obv town

Are you willing to explain this now? This is a pivotal moment in the game imo.

[six pomegranate seeds]

ok, seeds's comments about the n1 kill, and the fact I feel like there has been many feels weird to me, almost like he's mad griff picked them, idk.


Note about Skitter, the post at #406, I felt was pretty good, like, I'm not entirely sure a scum!skitter would have worded it that way, one thing I'm not sure about on skitter is their post #149, to me 147 felt super scummy, then skitter TRed it?? idk, I'm no longer feeling a skitter elim here tbh which then makes me go, ok, who do I want here...

#375 creative went "If sam is scum" after saying sam was their strongest sr??

I'm thinking an elim in kaz/creative tbh

It's hard for me to TR skitter for #406, does reducing everything I said to some other random player who it appears lightly shaded her in lylo and brought up her signature seem town to you? I do agree that #147 seems scummy in the same way SAMCO seems scummy for voting pooky to prove a point, but I honestly think scum would be more subtle in how they end up on a miselim bw rather than openly announcing "I am joining the bw in a super scummy way everyone!"

It is somewhat annoying SAMCO doesn't show up to talk at all.

In #406,
"sooooooo in the newbie queue there's this thing that happens where newbie scum get a particular vibe of my scumgame (either via my sig or via an SE partner, in this game the former) and decide to hype me up as a big bad scary scumplayer with a super strong scumgame and a lot of their case ultimately rides on the fact that i'm very good at scum, people should be afraid of my scumgame, and/or the game points to experienced scum

(incidentally i *do* have a very strong scumgame but this particular pattern/hyping it up in this way seems to exclusively happen in the newbie queue, it's happened i think 3 other times now)"

I TR this part, like, idk, a lot of me feels like scum wouldn't want to start talking about their scum game, or at least, town would be more willing to discuss it.

And your next comment about the "self preservation vote" I think Creative realized the sam wagon wasn't going anywhere, and you haven't exactly been towny, but the resistance to the sam wagon kinda makes me sus there... I need to just ISO everyone, my reads are literally falling apart and I am crazy unsure right now

I've thought about your TR on skitter here and honestly I do talk about my scum game maybe more when I am town. I said in an earlier post that I tend to bus as mafia, but I think I'm starting to understand in these forum games maybe it's better to just defend your mafia because it's so hard to get anyone voted.

I do agree there is a world where creative just thinks he won't get samcro voted and votes me as town.

Part of me just wants to vote SAMCRO just because if he's actually mafia just attempting to fake townslips and I prevented town from voting him I would feel really bad about it especially in my first game. But I don't think voting out of guilt has ever won me a game as town.

I think in the next few hours I'll try to finalize who I want to vote and clearly say why so that I don't have issues with the deadline tomorrow while I'm at work.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I just ISO'd Kaz, and I invite you all to do the same, I'd rather not flood this with quotes.

Kaz's entire stance on this game seems to be very reactionary, I see no effort at all to find scum from this slot, and it looks like Kaz entered D2 with an agenda, which was "Vote Creative out" All of their posts about creative were like "Creative is maf!!! Don't care about counter points"

Kaz also disappeared while likely "letting town tunnel one another" I just get bad vibes from this slot

I'm like 99% sure I'm going to vote this today, would love to hear yall's thoughts on this.

I had a lot of thoughts as I was going to bed about whether kazyan could be mafia. I initially TR kazyan at #47, #71 where he susses creative also pinged town to me. But he backs off the read quickly which kind of feels a little scummy to me. #133 were he says creative SAMCRO is not TvT initially felt quite townie to me as well. He could just be playing more careful as town, which is actually what he expressed to open the game in #44. So I feel bad if my scum vibes are coming off of a player being more humble because I think that’s a really admirable trait in a player. But honestly #44 opening a game by saying you are going to play differently is commonly a mafia thing to say in my experience. The other thing that pinged me about kazyan was his willingness to vote SAMCRO -> creative idk I was just getting bad vibes because I was hard TRing SAMCRO at that point it was a gut feeling. I do think if SAMCRO is mafia Kazyan would make sense as the pair though tbh in #208 he thinks SAMCRO is scummy but wants to vote for Creative. He does soon backtrack and agree to vote SAMCRO a little while later.

Idk, the thing that scum pinged me hardest on kazyan is that in my past games when I am getting upset about being suspected normally the mafia are the ones who feel bad for me and try to defend me which kazyan did defend me. And by post count kazyan does seem a little more passive which is suspicious.

It’s not fair to say he just sat back and didn’t say anything though, he defended me and said I was town in #431.

I don’t know. I think you are probably townie Andante for suggesting kazyan as a vote option. It does feel like you are trying to solve right now. Let me think.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Wait, crap lmao we didn't have a single vote outside of the SAMCRO/Creative deadlock up until you guys came in. Mafia can't be trying to deflect. Damn, now that I put my thoughts into words, I realize that I'm freaking out over nothing

Idk this just gives me townpings tbh. Idk if it's just TMIing that I am town since I am the person who came in and took the heat off of those two, but I think having a preliminary thought that doesn't make sense and then coming to the realization it doesn't make sense seems townie to me.

Also I'm going through his ISO and a lot of it just seems really townie. He has given a lot of content throughout the game and was proactively giving reads that I thought made sense at the time. The point you bring up that he hasn't really interjected too much into the current action is somewhat valid since his post count is lower on D2. That is scummy. But he did interject to say he sus'd skitter he changed from voting SAMCRO to voting creative and he TR me so he did have opinions.

If I'm picking up on the invest soft correctly honestly I'd still just want to vote into Creative / Skitter I think. I'm honestly sorry to town if I am wrong but I'm just going to go with my gut feeling.

Do you think that SAMCRO is town Andante? Because if SAMCRO is town I'm willing to bet at least one mafia pushed them. Actually Kazyan also expressed intent to vote SAMCRO so maybe I will remain open to him in the votepool.

It would be really nice if SAMCRO would actually play and stop looking like a mafia who just gave up though lol.

[six pomegranate seeds]

[quote="In post 369, CreativeName"][/quote]

Asking if we have a miselim implies you have completely lost track of the game state to an extent that is hard to do as mafia imo. He's either maliciously attempting to play very dumb as mafia or he's just a lost town which seems more likely to me. Mafia doesn't lose track of how many miselims are left unless they are intentionally playing dumb.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I kinda dislike how you lay out several reasons to tr creative in 426 (similar to my own) but come to the conclusion you still want to flip him

Wanting to flip creative absolutely makes sense If I assume SAMCRO town, regardless of Creative's alignment because Creative seems like he will vote SAMCRO in ELO otherwise. He also now wants to vote me, another great reason to just yeet him now even if he is town. You can't bring scumsiding town into ELO, and if I use my initial gut reads before everyone started arguing with me he's the second most sus person in the game. He's also the most sus person on the Miselim d1 wagon another compelling reason to vote him.

I'm getting kind of bored now though. Not sure if forum mafia is really for me.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Summary of thoughts at present:

Townbinning: Andante ("my reads are falling apart" coming in with gutreads and adapting reads exploring options seems town his pseudooriginal sus on kaz feels townie), WhemeStar (liked sudden flip on creative being town to not for one post, he TR SAMCRO without any feedback from me just like T3 did), SAMCRO (feels like he townslipped at various points i dont think mafia would play super suicidal and then effectively afk)

Process of Elim votes: Kazaya vs. Creative (I feel like one mafia in these two.) Skitter - I do think her pushing SAMCRO and then really addressing her thoughts on SAMCO when that was the only thing I really wanted her to answer feels scummy.

I'll vote within Kazaya / Creative / Skitter.

If I am really wrong about SAMCRO then I apologize for derailing the game. I'll probably take a break it's hard for me to disconnect from the game when I have free time and it's not really fun being the only person talking.

[six pomegranate seeds]

ok, seeds's comments about the n1 kill, and the fact I feel like there has been many feels weird to me, almost like he's mad griff picked them, idk.


Note about Skitter, the post at #406, I felt was pretty good, like, I'm not entirely sure a scum!skitter would have worded it that way, one thing I'm not sure about on skitter is their post #149, to me 147 felt super scummy, then skitter TRed it?? idk, I'm no longer feeling a skitter elim here tbh which then makes me go, ok, who do I want here...

#375 creative went "If sam is scum" after saying sam was their strongest sr??

I'm thinking an elim in kaz/creative tbh

It's hard for me to TR skitter for #406, does reducing everything I said to some other random player who it appears lightly shaded her in lylo and brought up her signature seem town to you? I do agree that #147 seems scummy in the same way SAMCO seems scummy for voting pooky to prove a point, but I honestly think scum would be more subtle in how they end up on a miselim bw rather than openly announcing "I am joining the bw in a super scummy way everyone!"

It is somewhat annoying SAMCO doesn't show up to talk at all.

In #406,
"sooooooo in the newbie queue there's this thing that happens where newbie scum get a particular vibe of my scumgame (either via my sig or via an SE partner, in this game the former) and decide to hype me up as a big bad scary scumplayer with a super strong scumgame and a lot of their case ultimately rides on the fact that i'm very good at scum, people should be afraid of my scumgame, and/or the game points to experienced scum

(incidentally i *do* have a very strong scumgame but this particular pattern/hyping it up in this way seems to exclusively happen in the newbie queue, it's happened i think 3 other times now)"

I TR this part, like, idk, a lot of me feels like scum wouldn't want to start talking about their scum game, or at least, town would be more willing to discuss it.

And your next comment about the "self preservation vote" I think Creative realized the sam wagon wasn't going anywhere, and you haven't exactly been towny, but the resistance to the sam wagon kinda makes me sus there... I need to just ISO everyone, my reads are literally falling apart and I am crazy unsure right now

I'm just going to say I thought this over, I don't know if talking about your scumgame is a townie thing or not, but this response to my sus on her feels like something you could pull out on a lot of players and doesn't feel all that specific to me. Feels like she is talking about a pattern more than she is talking about specific things that I did or said. And that doesn't feel townie to me. Like for example when I use pattern recognition on things like omgusses or reciprocal susses I always try to take the players actions and context into consideration. I'm not seeing a lot of that here. Even blindly following a pattern worked 3 times in the past, that is a sample size of n = 3, and to just be willing to scumbin me from n=3 without wanting to bring in more context does seem lazy to me regardless of what skitter says.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Nvm creative is not obv town

Are you willing to explain this now? This is a pivotal moment in the game imo.

I thought he was big softing a power role.

I was hoping there was a little more but idk you still seem town to me.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Wait, crap lmao we didn't have a single vote outside of the SAMCRO/Creative deadlock up until you guys came in. Mafia can't be trying to deflect. Damn, now that I put my thoughts into words, I realize that I'm freaking out over nothing

Idk this just gives me townpings tbh. Idk if it's just TMIing that I am town since I am the person who came in and took the heat off of those two, but I think having a preliminary thought that doesn't make sense and then coming to the realization it doesn't make sense seems townie to me.

Also I'm going through his ISO and a lot of it just seems really townie. He has given a lot of content throughout the game and was proactively giving reads that I thought made sense at the time. The point you bring up that he hasn't really interjected too much into the current action is somewhat valid since his post count is lower on D2. That is scummy. But he did interject to say he sus'd skitter he changed from voting SAMCRO to voting creative and he TR me so he did have opinions.

If I'm picking up on the invest soft correctly honestly I'd still just want to vote into Creative / Skitter I think. I'm honestly sorry to town if I am wrong but I'm just going to go with my gut feeling.

Do you think that SAMCRO is town Andante? Because if SAMCRO is town I'm willing to bet at least one mafia pushed them. Actually Kazyan also expressed intent to vote SAMCRO so maybe I will remain open to him in the votepool.

It would be really nice if SAMCRO would actually play and stop looking like a mafia who just gave up though lol.

I'm trying to logic through a SAM/Kaz team - both tunneled Creative at a point in the game, and maf often discuss reads on like easy pushes, SAM has done a lot of pushing on Creative, and I see 0 interactions from SAM with Kaz. I could see a maf SAM carelessly throwing out a vanilla town claim, idk, I'm trying to weigh the options here. Neither Sam nor Kaz has made a significant effort to try and find scum here, I understand SAM is just missing, idk. I think I could see a Sam and Kaz team (no I'm not just trying to pick easy pushes)

Yes, I also TRed Kaz for a couple lines, but then after I TRed Kaz, I stopped reading Kaz, and Kaz stopped trying. To me, it feels like Kaz doesn't actually care to find scum, and it's so easy to act towny at first, reading Kaz's ISO and SAM's it feels like they're partners

There were moments in the game where I saw them as aligned as well. It could mean they are town aligned imo as well though. Or that I am just crazy. To your point about Kaz stopped trying it did seem like he was scum hunting up until recently but that's more because he stopped posting as much. Maybe that is a scummy thing but idk.

[six pomegranate seeds]

VOTE: Kazyan

You know, honestly? I wonder if Andante is town and he thought I was playing scummy I should use that as a reference point. I wonder if Kazayan TR me because he is scum. I guess Wheme also TR me though. But I do feel like when I am being attacked by town it's more common for maf to come to my defense. I may be open to this vote tbh.

Crazy question: would it be best to just flip SAM here? If he is town like I think I think he is going to be miselimed like for sure in ELO. And if he is scum then I will lose the game in ELO voting with him. At least flipping SAM here would give us a little bit of information, like to me him flipping blue would make Wheme a pretty strong town, and I feel like Andante feels like a town right now. Also I feel like letting someone win as scum the way SAM played is just bad for the game. And this way I won't feel guilty for throwing if you guys were right that he was scum. Just a thought.

[six pomegranate seeds]

VOTE: Kazyan

You know, honestly? I wonder if Andante is town and he thought I was playing scummy I should use that as a reference point. I wonder if Kazayan TR me because he is scum. I guess Wheme also TR me though. But I do feel like when I am being attacked by town it's more common for maf to come to my defense. I may be open to this vote tbh.

Crazy question: would it be best to just flip SAM here? If he is town like I think I think he is going to be miselimed like for sure in ELO. And if he is scum then I will lose the game in ELO voting with him. At least flipping SAM here would give us a little bit of information, like to me him flipping blue would make Wheme a pretty strong town, and I feel like Andante feels like a town right now. Also I feel like letting someone win as scum the way SAM played is just bad for the game. And this way I won't feel guilty for throwing if you guys were right that he was scum. Just a thought.

You know what I'm not going to play that game. SAM town, if he's scum I lose.

[six pomegranate seeds]

i want to know if i didn't show up shortly would you have actually pushed me to a lim!
(and i think you probably know where i'm going with this .... and had to have known where i'd be going with this ...)

I feel like a scum!Skitter would have been more heavy-handed with this insinuation instead of adding that last clause, so you get a townlean.

Also, I'm trying not to declare any scumreads or anything until much much later in the game, because I'm trash at scumhunting.

Stuff like this gives me mild scumpings. I think it's more townie to be paranoid of stronger players, giving them early townpass reads as trying to fly under the radar. Also downplaying your own scumhunting ability is perhaps a little scummy. Contrast with Creative saying with enough time he finds 2/3 or 3/3 of the mafia. It's kind of like preemptively excusing not being able to vote mafia later in game. I think not wanting to screw things up for town is a townie impuse, so maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Contrast this with Creative's reaction to being TR by pooky - his response is "I won't TR you for town reading me" and then he actually votes him which is maybe townie in retrospect. As mafia wouldn't you prefer a player TRing you to stay alive?

Does skitter/Kazyan make sense as the scumpair? I'd be inclined to say no, I'm not sure a scum kazyan calls scum skitter town leaning early into the game. Maybe it's possible though.

[six pomegranate seeds]

VOTE: Kazyan

You know, honestly? I wonder if Andante is town and he thought I was playing scummy I should use that as a reference point. I wonder if Kazayan TR me because he is scum. I guess Wheme also TR me though. But I do feel like when I am being attacked by town it's more common for maf to come to my defense. I may be open to this vote tbh.

Crazy question: would it be best to just flip SAM here? If he is town like I think I think he is going to be miselimed like for sure in ELO. And if he is scum then I will lose the game in ELO voting with him. At least flipping SAM here would give us a little bit of information, like to me him flipping blue would make Wheme a pretty strong town, and I feel like Andante feels like a town right now. Also I feel like letting someone win as scum the way SAM played is just bad for the game. And this way I won't feel guilty for throwing if you guys were right that he was scum. Just a thought.

You know what I'm not going to play that game. SAM town, if he's scum I lose.

I wouldn’t go that far with my townread on SAM. Why would you?

The townirsy person here is probably you

Lol man, I really hope this isn't a pocket. What moment did you think was towniest from me?

[six pomegranate seeds]

Not true at all. Pooky's dying words were literally you are mafia or misguided. I took very close notice of that, you even quoted the exact words in an earlier response to me.

Hence why I paraphrased as probably, meaning maybe scum not definately scum, this seems a hard defend on samcro, who baring in mind was 100% on pooky being town and 10000% on me being scum which no town is ever that confident in their reads, if you were that confident why do they need to play newbie games and surely that would point to it not being their first game overall (in other places), and which you said it was SAMCRO's first game earlier. either their reads are completely fabricated and they just put on the confident bravado to push the miselims and you're hard defending a scum, or it's not their first game and they know what they're doing and so could be a very convincing wolf

People who are new actually tend to have way more confidence as town because they have no sense of their own falibility. Like the dunning kruger effect, people with low ability can't appreciate their low ability and are overconfident. That is what makes the most sense to me in this situation because so many other things about Samcro seem town.

I am absolutely hard defending samcro, I am town and I think he is town and this vote is wasted on him. I can review skimmers logs in the game you have provided.

I have seen first time scum overconfident in false reads/info as they don't realise the repercussions of their actions, like samcro lynching me and me flipping town means he'll be lynched

I am prepaired for samcro to flip town and will let you vote me if he does, I am prepared to accept that I as town let town lose as my reads were not good enough, I also do not 100& think samcro is scum more like a cool 70-80%

This is pinging town to me as well to be honest with you. Maybe it's something you can just say as mafia, it'd be a very strong convincing line. But it feels genuine to me. Something in my gut is telling me not to vote creative. God this is hard.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Wow we actually have a lot of time. Also Creative is at E-1. I'm rereading the game.

[six pomegranate seeds]

VOTE: Kazyan

You know, honestly? I wonder if Andante is town and he thought I was playing scummy I should use that as a reference point. I wonder if Kazayan TR me because he is scum. I guess Wheme also TR me though. But I do feel like when I am being attacked by town it's more common for maf to come to my defense. I may be open to this vote tbh.

Crazy question: would it be best to just flip SAM here? If he is town like I think I think he is going to be miselimed like for sure in ELO. And if he is scum then I will lose the game in ELO voting with him. At least flipping SAM here would give us a little bit of information, like to me him flipping blue would make Wheme a pretty strong town, and I feel like Andante feels like a town right now. Also I feel like letting someone win as scum the way SAM played is just bad for the game. And this way I won't feel guilty for throwing if you guys were right that he was scum. Just a thought.

You know what I'm not going to play that game. SAM town, if he's scum I lose.

Wow that's like the scummiest thing in the world, You'd accept the loss over scum reading someone who is already acting scummy?

Lol, the fact he is antagonizing me when i could hammer him is probably town imo. Part of me is open to just voting SAM and going to final 5 with players who won't afk. Maybe that'd make for a better game.

[six pomegranate seeds]

VOTE: Kazyan

You know, honestly? I wonder if Andante is town and he thought I was playing scummy I should use that as a reference point. I wonder if Kazayan TR me because he is scum. I guess Wheme also TR me though. But I do feel like when I am being attacked by town it's more common for maf to come to my defense. I may be open to this vote tbh.

Crazy question: would it be best to just flip SAM here? If he is town like I think I think he is going to be miselimed like for sure in ELO. And if he is scum then I will lose the game in ELO voting with him. At least flipping SAM here would give us a little bit of information, like to me him flipping blue would make Wheme a pretty strong town, and I feel like Andante feels like a town right now. Also I feel like letting someone win as scum the way SAM played is just bad for the game. And this way I won't feel guilty for throwing if you guys were right that he was scum. Just a thought.

You know what I'm not going to play that game. SAM town, if he's scum I lose.

Wow that's like the scummiest thing in the world, You'd accept the loss over scum reading someone who is already acting scummy?

Do you find kazyan scummy? I'm also going to tell you, if I was mafia with SAM there is no way I would defend him this hard just FYI.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Maybe SAM v Creative is town vs. town. That would imply there's probably one mafia on this Creative wagon. Maybe that is kazayan tbh. He seemed town most of the game but I just get this feeling there is one maf between creative and kazayan. Kazayan TRs skitter early, scummy. He wasn't on the d1 mislim wagon but is holding your vote really that townie? If creative is really town Wheme has been on two bad wagons too lol. I honestly thought Wheme was softing investigative on d1 by saying Creative was no longer obv town for bringing up masons and was hoping he was implying blue check on SAMCRO but that obviusly is not what happened. If creative is town maybe SAMCRO was reallly just open wolfing playing suicidal mafia. I haven't played any forum so I don't have a grasp on what people do here. I'm probably not voting creative here. Open to voting Kazayan or Samcro atm. I hope I'm not just TRing a mafia for calling my reads bad here lol.

[six pomegranate seeds]

It's sad no one else is posting. I'll be at work tomorrow in any case if I don't post anymore tonight.

VOTE: Unvote

[six pomegranate seeds]

I'll probably just sleep on this and come back tomorrow night. No one hammer please.

[six pomegranate seeds]

He jumped on the bear for a very bad reason and then tried to make it seem like the bear realistically had a chance at ever pushing that BW through only 3 pages into the game. I don't know Pooky, he seems like a jolly bear, but I think this is probably something he does a lot. Then Creative makes a reads list and divides people by high activity and low activity when the day just started! Then says maybe some of the people in low activity are lurking. How do you know if they are actually lurking or not? Maybe they are really not here. If creative could point to a post and say "this seems like lurking" then maybe his post would have validity, but since he just says people are possibly lurking with no actual merit behind that statement it's just a way to subtly shade an entire group of players. NEXT!

Not quite asleep yet. The thought I had trying to fall asleep is about this quote specifically. On initial skim I TR SAMCRO for this. Looking it back over, this argument specifically the bit that creative has no specific posts as examples to prove a player is lurking feels somewhat discordant with the rest of SAMCROs game, i.e. pretending not to be able to figure out to vote when honestly it's not really that hard I figured it out no problem or not knowing how many miselims. Idk just a thought I had. I am wondering whether I am too charitable in interpreting townslips, I've been burned in the past with such things. My gut of not wanting to vote creative raises SAMCRO's scum equity.

Also, frankly, if he's town he played really bad and then decided to afk on us which is lame af.

I'm still not sure who I will vote.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Nvm creative is not obv town

Are you willing to explain this now? This is a pivotal moment in the game imo.

I thought he was big softing a power role.

What power may I ask?

i don't think (new) scum asks this ^

I want to point out that creative is clearly not actually new, the same way that I am clearly not new. New to this website, sure. But the way he talks and thinks he's clearly quite familiar with the game.

[six pomegranate seeds]

also how do you view your scumgame

also i'm kinda like mentally reviewing my reasons to townread various players and even though i just said i'm not actively pushing samcro i think my reasons for thinkign he may be town are the weakest, and given that (outside of seeds) i don't think i super strongly scumread anybody, i may go back there

pedit sure

I have no idea how I would play scum on this site. On my other site I basically try to simulate how I would play as villager and try to use lines or trains of thought I think I would use as a town in that situation. I have a tendency to at least light scum my partner rather than outright TR, and if my partner is fumbling I'll normally just bus them. I always am sure to interact with my partner a decent amount to prevent people from catching on to any distancing. Lately I've tried out TRing and hard defending my partners. Especially if my partner is a newbie sometimes I'll just hard defend them just to be nice. I think probably one tell I have is that I tend to get way more upset as a townsperson, and also have a tendency to be more uncertain. My favorite part of mafia is being a town and trying to solve the game correctly. I don't really enjoy being scum that much.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I want to point out that creative is clearly not actually new, the same way that I am clearly not new. New to this website, sure. But the way he talks and thinks he's clearly quite familiar with the game.

i don't think he is actually

Well okay then.

I do wonder if my reads are actually degrading with time rather than improving lol.

In any case I'll log off for real for the night now.

[six pomegranate seeds]

One more question to leave you with before I sleep, do you have any doubts on your TRs on Wheme or Kazyan? From my POV if you are really town one of them is likely to be mafia.

Good night.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I just got home from work, kind a rough day ngl.

Read Creative's RR. I will point out to you skitter that I was actually making posts indicating I was warming up to the idea of voting SAMCRO because I was having serious doubts about Creative flipping scum. If I'm scum with SAMCRO I had plenty of time to just hammer creative rather than request no hammer and sit here.

And also I will point out that all this rr confirms is that Creative is opposite alignments from SAMCRO.

I spent a long time scum casing you and threw some light shade at creative, but then basically said there was no way I was voting him and said I was voting into SAMCRO and kazyan didn't I? Honestly don't remember right now, am very tired.

But honestly this rr is a little bit weird because creative actually asked earlier in the day if there were any incriminating tracker results? Maybe it is just to avoid eating the next night kill. For some reason I had kazyan and SAMCRO aligned I think it was because kaz came into day voting creative but then swapped to saying that he would vote samcro when he saw the tides turning. Then when I came in hard defending SAMCRO he used this as a way to switch back.

This is my first forum game and if SAMCRO flips scum it will actually surprise me and also be one of the first times where my initial read was wrong an then with time I actually was starting to warm up to the correct vote. There was a time last night when I thought about making a post saying "F it this guy played so bad he deserves to get voted even if he's town" in regards to SAMCRO. I think I actually kind of did make a post to that effect.

Wheme's play about retracting a TR to prevent Creative from being nk'd seems kinda townie, I'll have to think it over.

I'll sit here for a bit and think about Creative's rr. My initial gut when he was antagonizing me when I had hamer on hi was that he was just town. But if I'm PR with a red check do I really sit at E-1 and wait almost an entire day before rring with my red check? He seemed very town sitting at E-1 initially, but I have to think through this RR.

And btw SAMCRO flips scum I don't mind being voted in final 5, you guys will get another shot in final 3. Just give me that day to think about who a partner might be.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Also Kazyan you're read was right if you're really town! Good job

Of course if you're mafia you already knew that though

Don't mean to light shade you, just joking around my friend

[six pomegranate seeds]

Crazy question: would it be best to just flip SAM here? If he is town like I think I think he is going to be miselimed like for sure in ELO. And if he is scum then I will lose the game in ELO voting with him. At least flipping SAM here would give us a little bit of information, like to me him flipping blue would make Wheme a pretty strong town, and I feel like Andante feels like a town right now. Also I feel like letting someone win as scum the way SAM played is just bad for the game. And this way I won't feel guilty for throwing if you guys were right that he was scum. Just a thought.

This actually may give me scum pings if SAM is actually mafia LMAO. My brain is trying to hold back my gut from convincing myself into a SAM vote and when I'm able to hold myself back Wheme gives me second thoughts again while at the same time voting Creative lol.

Wheme otherwise seemed quite town this game. The only thing that scared me tbh was I thought that Wheme's reaction to Creative's #94 could have been a scum Wheme breadcrumbing an invest soft so that if he could get Creative voted on this day he could cc cop in lylo with a blue on his partner SAMCRO and use all the towncred he accumulated to get town to misvote. I never said this out loud because I was afraid that Wheme was actually just outed investigative and was going to die but it's a relief now that creative claimed investigative LOL.

So at present I am thinking about Creative's claim probabilistically. We know we are in row 2. I'm not sure if everyone has posted besides SAM yet, but if I assume there are no ccs from active players, the options are either that SAMCRO afk'd as invest after claiming VT on d1 - but I disregard this option as basically impossible because I don't think a PR would afk like this? - or there is a 2/3 chance that Creative is town if there is no cc because column A and B would necessitate a cc in this situation vs. a 1/3 chance that he is scum and we are in column C.

Concluson: Pure probability - 1/3 chance that Creative is scum, 2/3 chance he is town -> ergo SAMCRO is a good vote by probability.

Thinking through the way Creative played prior to his RR it is plausiblie that he was basically sitting there seeing who would defend SAMCRO and then deem them a partner and vote them i.e. voting me.

But to be honest with you, if I'm cop with a red in this setup I would have just outted - I would have never let myself get put on E-1 and kept my vote on someone other than my red. What if someone swoops in to hammer me and I died voting seeds who was not my check? It would be totally ambiguous that I had a sided altogether - in fact it would be likely for town to assume Creatie had a NS'd check given the fact that he swapped votes.

So I guess my question to Creative is - if you had a red on SAMCRO, why did you wait so long to out it when you were on E-1 and why did you risk dying with your vote on me without RRing creating an ambiguous situation for town to interpret your implied check? This is probably the only roadblock in my mind to just quickhammering SAMCRO and moving on.

[six pomegranate seeds]

i think going sam -> seeds -> wheme probably wins the game, that's just my opinion

i dont' love that you're mitigating the strength of your defense of sam tbh

and sorry that your day was rough

You probably are town in this situation for the sole reason you said T3 or SAMCRO on d1 and then T3 died - that would imply you would be backing yourself into voting your own mafia on d2 by killing the other player in you vote pool. SAMCRO was certainly playing to be bussed if they are mafia though. You are probably are town if SAMCRO flips scum - but I don't want to townbin you just yet.

You can flip me tomorrow - that's fine if you want to. But I will think through the f3 vote before the next day ends.

I'm not sure that Wheme as scum would call his partner obv town in an early post on d2 when you, creative, and kazyan were all gearing to vote him up.

Reviewing 297 actually looks incredibly townie now and totally consistent with Creative being invest. But there is a lot of other weird shit too like the 70-80% lol.

The post I was looking for was 231 Basically 3 players are gearing up for a samcro vote. I guess I am not used to forum but it seems super bold to just defend your partner when he looks like an obvious vote. In the games I play scum typically look to jump onto their partner's wagon from the idea that it will look townie to be on that wagon - specfically in the middle. In this situation that player who would be Kazayan - who suspected SAMCRO 3rd but never voted him then swapped to creative when I came in with my read.

I think Andante jumping on Kaz here #373 seems townie. And if SAM flips town it seems likely to me that Skitter and me was TvT, then Andante correctly identifying that is probably a townie thing.

So if Scum sam can give me town skitter and town skitter makes andante probably town and wheme is town for defending a scum when it appears he is going to be voted then that leaves Kaz as the partner, who opens the game saying he will play differently seeming very town early then trailing off but returning hard to defend himself hard seems a little bit scummy to me. I was trying to talk myself into a Kaz/sam pair here 433 but I was thinking they were town / town pair. If SAMCRO flips scum you will probably all view the post as me setting up a kaz push but it was a thought I had in my head as I was tossing and turning so I came back on to write it down so I wouldn't forget it.

I'll do a pure iso on creative next to process his RR.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Uhm what that is not something I would say I dont use perfect gammar

Oh I'm sorry I meant to quote 488 I keep quoting the wrong things on accident. I was the one who wrote that thing I quoted.

Idk what I'm doing wrong.

[six pomegranate seeds]

ftr i'm very, very, very unlikely to flip kaz before you

if we do end up flipping you next and that doesnt end the game, i will take your reads in consideration (if i haven't died by then, of course), so i would indeed appreciate seeing who you think it is

All I can say then is regardless of your aligment you will live to final 5. If I was mafia with SAMCRO I will tell you exactly what I would do next.

I would vote SAMCRO, yeet you at night then cry out "Frame! Frame! That's so level 1." Just as you did when T3 died. Although I guess in that case creative will die next regardless.

I actually remember now a major reason why I TR SAMCRO, it's because T3 did. I still wonder why T3 was chosen as a kill tbh. Why would Kaz choose to night kill someone who would have helped defend his Scum while also elimming one of town Skitters susses that would basically inevitably lead town skitter to tunnel into his partner? Doesn't quite make sense tbh with you. Maybe all you guys think about is PR hunting. Tbh with you - I think PR hunting is total BS unless someone gives a clear soft. If creative is invest, he sure didn't play like one I had no idea he was invest lol.

[six pomegranate seeds]

ftr i'm very, very, very unlikely to flip kaz before you

if we do end up flipping you next and that doesnt end the game, i will take your reads in consideration (if i haven't died by then, of course), so i would indeed appreciate seeing who you think it is

In fact - if I was scum with SAM I would just quickhammer creative right now and go laughing off into the sunset LOL.

I would write some bullshit para about how Creative didnt claim for 24 hours with hammer on him and straight up hammer him lol.

Also watch SAM flip town and my original reads be validated

[six pomegranate seeds]

You probably are town in this situation for the sole reason you said T3 or SAMCRO on d1 and then T3 died -

that would imply you would be backing yourself into voting your own mafia on d2 by killing the other player in you vote pool.

SAMCRO was certainly playing to be bussed if they are mafia though. You are probably are town if SAMCRO flips scum - but I don't want to townbin you just yet.

ftr i really wouldn't townread me for this reason alone ... i'm very good at distancing

I did just say I wasn't town binning you just yet. I still don't understand how you could possibly be scum reading me if creative end up being town when I'm one of the players who refused to vote creative and gave him time to give his red check. In what possible world do I sit here and consider a Kaz or SAMCRO vote when I can just hammer creative and then yeet you at night and end up in final 5 with Wheme who just said I was the most town person in the game and Kaz who was also defending me?

[six pomegranate seeds]

Crazy question: would it be best to just flip SAM here? If he is town like I think I think he is going to be miselimed like for sure in ELO. And if he is scum then I will lose the game in ELO voting with him. At least flipping SAM here would give us a little bit of information, like to me him flipping blue would make Wheme a pretty strong town, and I feel like Andante feels like a town right now. Also I feel like letting someone win as scum the way SAM played is just bad for the game. And this way I won't feel guilty for throwing if you guys were right that he was scum. Just a thought.

This actually may give me scum pings if SAM is actually mafia LMAO. My brain is trying to hold back my gut from convincing myself into a SAM vote and when I'm able to hold myself back Wheme gives me second thoughts again while at the same time voting Creative lol.

Wheme otherwise seemed quite town this game. The only thing that scared me tbh was I thought that Wheme's reaction to Creative's #94 could have been a scum Wheme breadcrumbing an invest soft so that if he could get Creative voted on this day he could cc cop in lylo with a blue on his partner SAMCRO and use all the towncred he accumulated to get town to misvote. I never said this out loud because I was afraid that Wheme was actually just outed investigative and was going to die but it's a relief now that creative claimed investigative LOL.

So at present I am thinking about Creative's claim probabilistically. We know we are in row 2. I'm not sure if everyone has posted besides SAM yet, but if I assume there are no ccs from active players, the options are either that SAMCRO afk'd as invest after claiming VT on d1 - but I disregard this option as basically impossible because I don't think a PR would afk like this? - or there is a 2/3 chance that Creative is town if there is no cc because column A and B would necessitate a cc in this situation vs. a 1/3 chance that he is scum and we are in column C.

Concluson: Pure probability - 1/3 chance that Creative is scum, 2/3 chance he is town -> ergo SAMCRO is a good vote by probability.

Thinking through the way Creative played prior to his RR it is plausiblie that he was basically sitting there seeing who would defend SAMCRO and then deem them a partner and vote them i.e. voting me.

But to be honest with you, if I'm cop with a red in this setup I would have just outted - I would have never let myself get put on E-1 and kept my vote on someone other than my red. What if someone swoops in to hammer me and I died voting seeds who was not my check? It would be totally ambiguous that I had a sided altogether - in fact it would be likely for town to assume Creatie had a NS'd check given the fact that he swapped votes.

So I guess my question to Creative is - if you had a red on SAMCRO, why did you wait so long to out it when you were on E-1 and why did you risk dying with your vote on me without RRing creating an ambiguous situation for town to interpret your implied check? This is probably the only roadblock in my mind to just quickhammering SAMCRO and moving on.

That was you in 486 lol

On my screen it says 488 I think my quoting system is glitchy.

[six pomegranate seeds]

353

I'm isoing creative. I think that this townpinged me earlier in game I forgot if I quoted 353 actually I quoted 360.

Anyway I think 353 really makes me think Creative is invest. It now makes total sense to me the things that I was SRing creative for was that he was playing with extra information - he reverses the TR on me solely because I am defending mafia, he self pres votes maybe because he's a little bit of a newbie invest and he just wants to live and is getting greedy wanting to find both mafia lol. Looking at my post 455 these are actually the only two points I had on creative being scum. There was also the reaching for early reads thing - but I actually do remember TRing that initially the very first time I skimmed, I think rereading the game I have a lot of preconceived notions polluting my reading. So basically almost all my biggest scumpings on creative are erased if I know he is invest. I also was just reading the game backwards perhaps with the base assumption that SAMCRO was town, which explain actually why I was so wishy washy. I kept wanting to go forward voting as if SAMCRO was town, but then my votes end up not feeling right and I backtrack. I think this game makes a lot more sense in why I had such a hard time committing to a sus if I was just reading the game backwards the whole time.

Creative just a word of advice to you, finding one red check is super good for town, wanting to live further is really greedy if you had died we'd have been a little bit screwed if you had died voting me. As soon as you were put at E-1 you probably should have rr'd. Although I was never going to hammer you tbh, and skitter and andante weren't going to either. In any case, the way you played today gives town a lot of good logs to go through, so I applaud your play. Hitting mafia n2 is also quite impressive too!

[six pomegranate seeds]

VOTE: SAMCRO

Anyway, it's approaching my bedtime and I'm not really keeping track of the timer and work is super draining so this is probably my vote and I doubt I will change it. I'm going to feel like a dumbass if this flips town, but here's to praying I'm finally right for one this game!

Tl;dr Creative's d2 does look like an invest, especially his "idc if you flip me after we flip SAM, I'll lose the game for town because my reads weren't good enough" reads town even if Creative was a villager but makes a lot of sense if he has a red check on SAM.

If SAMCRO doesn't flip red here idk what to think lol. Feels like this flips red.

Work is super rough so idk when I'll be back.

Wheme, Kazayan if you TR me please vote SAMCRO. You're outted scum otherwise

[six pomegranate seeds]

Actually looking back it seems like you will already lol. I guess I was the only one still deciding. In any case I see no point to waiting for a replacement to come tbh. Kaz said he would swap if need be, Wheme basically said on the last page SAMCRO was obv scum now.

Maybe I'll try to search for a SAMCRO pair a little more before bed.

[six pomegranate seeds]

UNVOTE:
solely to do this properly and make sure eveyone (andante and maybe kaz?) have a chance to officially not cc

i don't think they're going to tho and i'll revote immediately thereafter

Ohhhhhhh so townie of you

[six pomegranate seeds]

Flaw in my Kaz / Sam pairing. Both Kaz / Sam push creative day 1. Both Kaz and creative push creative d2. Seems dumb as F to do as a mafia pair.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Andante is actually in a super strong postion as a scum right now. His counterpart is entirely afk for d1 so absolutely nothing is revealed about the slot. Then he gets to come in on d2 and start playing fresh. It's way easier to seem townie on d1 then on d2 and this is effectively his d1.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I still think the "my reads are falling apart" line from Andante seems town - beause it happened at the exact same moment I felt my reads were falling apart and we both jumped into the game at a similar point. He also shared my feelings of regret in beginning to consider a SAMCRO vote "but he was an early TR!" he said in one of his posts. Idk he says this after I said it, but he said my reads were falling apart before I said it, so I dont think it's chameleoning or echoing me to get TR cred.

But now I guess it is the case that one reason I TR andante "maf don't afk" has been likely proven invalid if SAMCRO flips red LOL. But seriously what are the odds that both mafia afk'd at different points LOL.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Ok, I am all caught up now. I'm pretty sure the 2/3 for maf is Griff/seeds, skitter, creative

I know yall have gotten nothing from my slot, so I'll do my best to be easy to read

I personally see 0 reason to post line by line everything like seeds just did, and I was already sus for grif.

I felt #311 was a really weird line, nothing griff did struck me as super towny

I honestly think it's really townie if someone's scum reads contain no mafia in them. And that's a possibility here if SAMCRO flips red. I came into this game reading it backwards too perhaps.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Vote me, just know when I flip town you were got by SAMCRO and his partner (I now see this as possibly Wheme or seeds)

Pooky's dying words were that SAMCRO is probably mafia and somehow seeds in their backreading has skimmed over that

I have no idea how you went from TRing my slot to retroactively saying my slot was scummy on D1 when the only new info was that now I had you towards the scummier end of the game on my reads and provided infinitely more than my predecessor.

I also do not appreciate being told that my reads are bad, regardless of whether they are wrong or not. It is obnoxious to do so - although in my experience when someone tells me my reads are bad and are obnoxious or rude they tend to be town.

your demeinor, also you seem to hard defend samcro who is in my eyes scum, griff was not active so I kinda town leaned him because he seemed vaguely solvey but i did think it was suspicious to BW on pooky just because, also it's strange that T3 died when he was mostly low activity which hints at maybe a newbie team who don't know that ia is good for town, and if it wasn't samcro why am I still alive? because mafia without me could easily kill me and pin it on samcro.

Also text walls to me are a "I am posting this for town points" usually they slow down town who have to read it all and are filled with fluff and filler text. They also usually repeat info to make people look more/less scummy/towny than they actually have been acting

I know I am town, hopefully when samcro flips scum or I flip town, town will see that the only really logical scum choice is samcro

So what happens when Sam flips town? You keep ignoring me... I'm pretty certain on skitter/you/seeds, kinda just trying to figure out the town in it, I almost feel like you and seeds right now are partners? idk. you're just ignoring me and only paying attention to seeds, a bit weird in my opinion, considering, you said you TRed seeds's slot before, and there was nothing to read my slot from

"So what happens when SAM flips town" feels super townie a statement if SAM flips red. In my head it exudes the lack of information a town has.

[six pomegranate seeds]

To be totally honest with you Kazyan, I think I can fake having a lot of content as scum. But also being honest with you, if I was scum with SAMCRO and Creative outted him I would not still be interested in playing the game after the day at work I had LOL

[six pomegranate seeds]

Ok, I see that there's been some major distrust of the way I've played today. You might not want answers from me about that, but I have them.

My "north star" for this game has been the argument between Creative and SAMCRO. I saw SAMCRO go into attack mode and I saw Creative blow up in retaliation, and this whole time, I've remained completely convinced that there must be scum between the two of them due to the veracity of that attack. Therefore, my whole objective for day 2 has been to figure out which of the two are scum. I narrowed down two players that each have a ~50% chance of being Mafia, thus leaving everyone else at a 25% chance, which meant that I didn't care about anyone else--thus the lack of commentary elsewhere. You can

not

take that blowup argument into two rounds of ELo, because unless the town is seriously on top of their game and both peripheral townies take the proper side of the argument, that's just a loss condition. What you

can

do is flip one side of Creative/SAMCRO to try your better 50% odds, and then if they're not scum, vote off the other. Even if you're wrong on your first guess, the ELo you arrive at only requires the correct town deduction instead of two. To me, there was no way that flipping either Creative or SAMCRO wasn't optimal play, unless I could somehow catch the other scum in a pool of twice as many people, which I was really not ready to do. I have a 0% success rate at scumhunting so far.

(The problem with the above plan is that you have to walk up to everyone and say "hey, I'm totally prepared to hammer either of them; I don't care which, lolol". But I can't say that, or everyone turns on me and we lose a townie, which, as I just went over, means that we lose. So I decided to play with that plan, without telling anybody what the plan was. Surprise--that looks super scummy. I'm not great at peforming my towniness, because I care more about getting mafia eliminated than surviving. I gathered a lot of suspicion in Mini Normal 2187 and in Newbie 2054 for this exact problem, and it's recurring. But now I

have

to care about not getting eliminated, because see above.)

What happened next was people splitting down the middle between Creative and SAMCRO--which was bad for two reasons. First, it mant that if a miselimination was had outside of Creative and SAMCRO, there's nothing that Mafia has left to worry about except for an incriminating tracker result. Second, it meant that we didn't even have the votepower to come to a conclusions--two people were MAI.

Once I realized that Whemestar couldn't break the tie no matter who he voted, I kinda started to lose interest, tuned out the peripheral arguments, and eventually started talking about stuff like pizza toppings. No one made any progress on deciding anything, and even the deadline timer froze. I've stopped posting so much because I stopped seeing much of a point.

Thankfully, we got Seeds next. Suddenly we get a strong towncase on SAMCRO from someone who towns very towningly, and provides a new perspective.

I would like for us to come to some kind of consensus on voting. I will admit, forthright now, that I am willing to hammer SAMCRO or to keep my vote parked on Creative, so that we can get both of them eliminated and actually put the game into a winnable state. You can do with that opinion what you want. I very much do not want an elimination on Seeds, Andante, Whemestar, Kazyan, or Skitter. The heat the Seeds has been taking, in particular, is unwarranted.

"there's nothing that Mafia has left to worry about except for an incriminating tracker result" this isn't a slip right? I honestly kind of forget what FN is thats the one that confirm itself as town to people it visits right? Maybe it's not a slip then. Lol, just a thought.

[six pomegranate seeds]

15

How cheesy would it be if scum wheme is the one to set up Samcro's Vanilla town line

[six pomegranate seeds]

I feel like Kazyan's posting pattern feels like the patter a scum would take. Spaces out posts but makes them juicy w/ content every once in a while so he's there but not too there. Clearly my style of just bumrushing people gets you on people's scum lists lol. I still can't reconcile the fact that both Kazayan and SAMCRO pushed creative on both d1 and on d2. It's very unlike scum to hard align like that in my opinion.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I dont think we need gthe replacement because sam ultimately will aleays get flipped but i want to get andente's formal cc

Kaz, thanks for that analysis. Which pairing do you think is most likely?

SAMCRO/Whemestar or Creative/Whemestar.

"there's nothing that Mafia has left to worry about except for an incriminating tracker result" this isn't a slip right? I honestly kind of forget what FN is thats the one that confirm itself as town to people it visits right? Maybe it's not a slip then. Lol, just a thought.

Friendly Neighbor tells someone you're town, yeah. I don't see how that's a townslip but I'm reassured if you think so lol

By the way, it's "Kazyan". Six letters, with only two As.

Oh am I mispelling your name? I thought that's what I was saying. I actually thought it was a scum slip lol since scum would know if there's really a tracker in the game but in retrospect it's a really dumb thought there's no way scum would slip like that. I just like typing things out to process my thoughts.

Also, there's something I want to say about you now that I'm noticing but I will withhold it for now. Want to see if it holds true later.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I'm going to feel shocked if this flips town but it feels like if SAMCRO is mafia then scum skitter and scum andante would win the game here. I'm not totally sure what to make of andante saying he will vote with skitter, he seems town otherwise.

But my advice to you andante is never to just promise someone you will vote with them. You should never just listen to someone else blindly.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I forget if I asked skitter why she thought Wheme wouldn't kill T3?

[six pomegranate seeds]

At least Andante wasn't a tracker lol. It does make sense they had to kill Andante there. So you guys all understand this game and know mafia hammer in ELO so don't vote anyone but creative today. I honestly think this isn't an awful spot for us to be in, there was a lot of info in d1/d2 and I personally feel like I have the solve so we can discuss it out until we feel good about the solve today.

I'm also sorry for being rash and placing my vote when we didn't need to vote just yet. I've learned my lesson, waiting through that night was really painful - that took so long and I understand why SAMCRO forgot the game was going on lol.

So I'm just going to go ahead and state my gut reads right now I thought from overnight reads that Kazyan and Andante were for certain town, that skitter is probably town, and that whemestar is exactly Creative's partner.

Bear with me I wrote a lot overnight in my brain dump.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I'm going to cut bits out because I wrote way too much tbh with you.

The, I’d night kill you creative line from Wheme seems like it was specifically setup. Wheme also railing against Creative felt really weird, Creative actually felt pretty townie when the hammer was on him. Also Wheme’s “you’re either PR or scum” read feels fake as well, I didn’t really get that sorting vibe at all from creative on d1, I more agree with skitter’s take that he seemed like a VT until I reread d2 knowing he had claimed invest. The PR or scum thing in retrospect looks like a setup to swing the vote off of creative and wheme yelling to hammer didn’t seem that convincing because it didn’t feel like he was actually trying to convince any one of skitter, andante, or I to actually hammer - instead he was just saying this is scum. Like he never does any iso or any any appeal to either me skitter or andante, if I think I have scum at E-1 I think I’d just start begging people to vote with me. And wheme is an SE so should be able to do it. Also all that stuff took place when I was at work was super lame. I sort of looked at the timeline it seems Wheme showed up around 1 pm and railed against creative who rr’d around 9 pm. I wonder if it was planned out so that wheme could force the rr out of creative.

#324 does to me read as scum distancing in hind site. 

My night time solve:

I think it comes down to andante is a never vote player - “reads are falling apart” reads evolved a lot from hard voting skitter with me to identifying me and skitter as town jumps on kaz and wheme at various points and mafia don’t afk therefore andante is town. #352 “creative can we interact?” does not read as s/s.

Kaz is a never vote player for very early push on creative for good reasons and is very uncertain about in early d1 comes out the gates on d2 wanting to hard get creative, when I come into the game to defend SAMCRO he votes with courage and hits a scum he was 2nd on the creative wagon that sat at E1 super dangerous thing to do as scum imo and just parked vote too making creative a very viable vote on d2 Kaz is a never vote player. The most town thing about kaz is #224 kaz commits to TRing SAM and Griff if creative flips scum, as a mafia with possible tracker/FN alive committing that hard to this read he’d need to ML both skitter and whemstar to win with a possible invest alive this is just a suicidal post for a mafia to make. I think kaz is just town.

So Skitter or wheme is scum. The option is that scum tried to distance i.e. wheme pushes creative and creative pushes wheme i.e. #324. Or both the scum just TR each other including Creative put skitter as highest TR in the game and they hard align to open d2 voting with one another. I think the prior is more likely - it gives mafia insurance that if one of them goes down, the other will have some town credit to play with in final 3. I think it’s very scary and risky to just hard TR your mafia partner imo. I think skitter sussing wheme #573 when he is screaming to hammer her partner would be an incredibly bold play as mafia to the point I think it is unlikely. I think the pair may just be Creative / Wheme here. I think there would be a beautiful symmetry in distancing, Creative pushes on me/wheme while attempting to pocket skitter. Wheme pushes on skitter/creative while attempting to pocket me. It seems like a solution to a pair. I think it’s hard for me to believe the scum from 3/2-3/5 or whatever the dates were came up with the plan of “let’s both just instavote SAMCRO.” I think the distancing is the more likely option. #61 feels like a distance post from creative, he never says hi to wheme or is friendly his first interaction is to put wheme into a serious read

[six pomegranate seeds]

The things I wrote down during night phase (i.e. the braindump):

Kazyan feels like a town? susses Creative first really early in game - 71 confirms he’s town to me kaz/sam were aligned so now they are town aligned kazyan is most town

Andante feels like a town? him hard sussing kaz feels like a town move, him hard sussing on wheme feels like a town move him recognizing me and skitter town on town feels like a town move, feel like a scum would pick a side more than get us out of the tunnels. Also after seeing SAMCRO flip town it makes me feel good that someone who afks is far more likely to be town.

Skitter hard aligned with Creative therefore town?
It’s either whemestar or skitter, it’s probably whemestar

I think whemstar may actually kill skitter here lol - or just kill andante, does he have to kill andante?
I think whemstar will leave me alive because i was sussing on kaz
559 creative is slipping kayzan town

Also I think whemstar hammering is just outing lol, him pushing Creative into claiming was scummy then immediately unvoting his PR read is an excuse to vote on the miselim wagon imo

it’s skitter or whemestar in any case

Waiting during night phase as town is mad boring tbh with you. I understand why SAMCRO forgot the game was going on now lol. 70 skitter, I wonder if making observations about your partner’s tendencies can be this organic as mafia. skitter is making observations about creative’s personality she later says he seems more new than he lets on (which actually played into me thinking he just played invest super weird and ignoring the fact that I would never sit for 24 hours at E-1 as invest with a red) but if you have a private mafia chat going isn’t making personality observations in main chat about your partner a little weird?

115 Kazyan is town for agreeing to the same distribution as creative. Mafia don’t openly agree with thoughts like that in broad daylight imo. More kazyan town points.

116 Creative puts skitter as literally his strongest TR at various points of the game. This seems more like a pocket than pairing.

210 and 207 I’m not sure that scum just hard align like this. Do they just openly vote together on a town to open the day? I think andante is townie and if I can believe from his POV he can figure out Skitter and I were TvT then it’s just wheme as mafia tbh. I remember one post where I said I may be TRing one mafia right now and that’s okay, rereading my initial read of the game I said that creative and skitter didn’t feel like THE solve that is what my read was without any outside influence or manipulation from others, doesn’t that imply that now that creative has flipped scum that skitter is implied town? I had similar dissassocation reads at points between Creative and Kaz it felt one scum one town, now that Creative flips red it may just directly implies Kaz town. Andante is just independently town because mafia don’t afk (now my gut feeling that this is true is supported by SAMCRO town lol) and he played town. This leaves Wheme as outed scum (I hope lol).

[six pomegranate seeds]

I actually now saw that Creative and Wheme voted together on Pooky on D1 which made me lose some confidence so I reread this portion of the game.

At post 50 there are two votes on wheme (kaz/pooky) / two votes on pooky (SAMCRO / whemestar)

55 creative jumps in with his vote that puts 3 votes on pooky (SAMCRO / whemestar / Creative) saying this is a gut read. I wonder if this is just scum making sure that pooky will be the default vote over their partner if no one comes to a conclusion at EOD since they have more votes. Losing your partner on d1 would be impossible to recover from on d1. This could explain creative’s impulse to jump in here with a shit push on pooky.

70 from skitter feels like an organic deduction about creative’s mafia experience. Maybe it’s NAI but having an organic deduction about your mafia partner in day chat is probably a little harder to pull off?

74 does a mafia skitter ask a town Kaz what he thinks of her TRing her own mafia partner? I’m not sure she does.

91 I think I TR this post on initial read. I think in hindsight this could be wheme having to push on pooky as a way of self pressing.

94 feels like Creative slipping Skitter town “I am not saying me and skitter are masons but it is something to look for in people's later reads”part of me doubts that a mafia mentions the idea that they are masons with their mafia partner lol

95 It seems like wheme is trying to get skitter to sus onto pooky as it stands its still 3-2. Losing mafia from RVS vote d1 is really bad and he has to ensure he lives. I also think the level of certainty that wheme has in this read is strange, all pooky has done so far is meme, I’m not sure what front there is so far. 95 actually feels really discordant from the way that wheme plays on d2. On d2 wheme is apparently actually super convinced that creative is mafia, but he never implores me or skitter to actually hammer creative or try to get us to SR him, instead he just feels like he’s playing up his own read instead of trying to get others to vote with him. When a town spooky is on the chopping block though 95 reads as wheme really trying to get him voted.

96/97 is what made me initially TR whemestar on the first read through. In retrospect I wonder if this is a plotted out interaction. Wheme plays up this PR read on creative so he can hard push creative to look town but then have an excuse to pivot off by forcing creative’s fake claim. Andante was expressing a desire to hammer creative but Skitter and I weren’t so Wheme had to force the rr out of skitter before andante came back, which is what happened. So boom, Wheme gets a free line “you would be my night kill Creative” gets to hard push creative knowing that creative can swing the vote off and wheme can believably unvote in that situation. Also him hammering there after saying let’s wait for a SAMCRO replacement felt weird.

[six pomegranate seeds]

101 sounds like a power role soft but wheme doesn’t die at night. Creative asking what do you mean by that sets up wheme to clearly imply his PR read so it can be acted out on d2.

105 doesn’t feel like a real reaction, on my initial skim I TR wheme for withholding information, creative is light sussing wheme, yet is voting pooky still at this point essentially saving wheme fro being the default vote, why not swap votes here if you suspect wheme? I think no one has swapped votes yet at this point it’s still 3 votes on pooky (SAMCRO / whemestar / Creative) vs two votes on wheme (kaz/pooky) so creative is here scumming wheme while also literally defending him from being a panic EOD vote with his vote. Creatives vote feels very discordant with his purported thought here and I wonder if this just makes 105 level 1 distancing from his partner.

116 Creative attempts to say that Pooky is scummier than Where but when spooky calls him out his argument seems really basic and not well thought out “you started a wagon” in creative’s initial vote on pooky he says starting a wagon is good. 123 Kaz brings up a real reason to SR spooky and then creative copies the reason in his next post lol, to me this reads as creative needing to invent reasons to keep his vote on spooky to prevent the vote from swinging to Wheme. To town at this point in the game all these votes feel like memes, no one has really seriously placed their votes, but to the two scum the votes feel dangerous. Maybe this is how it makes sense that scum Wheme and scum Creative voted together on day 1, it was out of fear that Wheme would turn into a default info d1 vote and it also explains why Creative reaches so hard to keep his vote on Pooky when spooky eventually starts to feel town “dude there were two votes lol” to Creative two votes on his scum partner feels dangerous so he feels the need to vote with him. I’m also not sure wheme would have coordinated their vote together because I think Creative voted a few real time hours after wheme voted, maybe it was just a fear vote from Creative.

106 from Wheme read scum on initial read and still does. Having no fear of death at night is not townie. I am always paranoid of being the night kill as a town.

Looking at wagons, wheme is the one who is one both miselim wagons (actually - I am too!). Skitter is on none. Maybe that actually makes me suspicious on skitter a little would scum really just go on both wagons? But maybe they have to in order to win. I have no conception of what it takes to wins as mafia in these games. And the second wagon is obviously NAI skitter said she would have voted if andante had not cc’d. So maybe I should breathe easily about this point.

Skitter 49
Kazyan 23
CreativeName 47
Samcro 15
Where 30
6pom 46
Andante 20
By vote count logic from early d2 now that I axe out Creative if we go by order Skitter > 6 pom > Wheme > Kazyan > Andante > SAMCRO the people in the middle are always people who I would suspect the most now that we can remove creative from the picture Wheme and kaz are in the middle and I’m going to make Kaz a never vote player. So it makes me feel a little bit good about a Wheme vote.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Is my read actually correct? I feel pretty good about it. It seems like it fits together in my head. After seeing SAMCRO flip town, I’m just going to go with my reads I think without letting others pollute my head at this point. I want to be right or wrong on my own reads, and not be talked out of something.

This was my night time solve and my arguments to the town. My opinion is that wheme and creative are the scum pair. I’m hoping my night analysis and putting together all my thoughts has led to the correct conclusion. I’m really relying on my association reads that Creative and Kaz were unaligned, Kaz and Sam were aligned, Skitter and creative were unaligned, and that Andante is just independent town. This leaves Wheme who I did not get strong association feelings about (except as possible scum with SAMCRO interestingly enough) as the only possible option as scum if I believe that my association reads are correct. I think maybe I have an inkling of doubt that Skitter could be the scum and just played very boldy hard aligning with her mafia - maybe that’s what a strong scum does in forum mafia. But I do not have enough knowledge to make that call right now and would rather go with my gut feeling that mafia distance for the insurance. And this solve feels consistent with my independent initial synthesis 317 “Tl;dr I want to vote skitter. If skitter is town I’m kind of lost this game but that would probably mean to me that creative is scum with maybe whemstar or kazyan? Kazyan is willing to vote samcro over creative today is actually a little scary but he’s played townie imo so far. If Meagen is mafia it also make sense that my reads are really off because I’ve just ignored them.” the creative is scum with whemestar or kazyan was my initial independent gut feeling if I assume that skitter creative cannot be the solve, and now kazyan feels town in retrospect. Therefore the solve is Wheme/Creative.

The conclusion/synthesis i.e. the tl;dr (read this if you skip everything else):

Andante town:
mafia doesn’t afk most of the time, coming into the game going guns blazing into skitter is a town impulse if skitter is town, a mafia would be afraid of her I think. Andante swapping vote into kaz and identifying skitter v seeds as town v town i think was townie, a mafia would pick sides in the conflict and stoke the flames.

Kaz town:
when I come into the game to defend SAMCRO he votes with courage and hits a scum he was 2nd on the creative wagon that sat at E1 super dangerous thing to do as scum imo and just parked vote too making creative a very viable vote on d2 Kaz is a never vote player. You should never vote for Kaz here. 71 Kaz pushes on Creative super early with a good gut suss that is uncertain and seems to come from a townie place. 115 Kazyan comes and agrees with creative that there is one inactive and one active scum, I don’t think mafia just blindly agree about some weird idea like that in front of the town, they’d prefer to fake an argument in my opinion. 125 CreativeName agrees with Kazyan about a push onto Pooky using Kazyan’s reasons to support his sus of Pooky, I don’t think scum uses their partners argument to supplement their push. 208 you saw this post as Kaz having an agenda in pushing creative, but in hindsight this just seems like a good read between the two who honestly did seem one scum one maf to me on initial skim. 357 creative reads kaz as “Kayzan - Null - possibly just a town who is being pocketed by scum” feels like he is just telling the town that Kaz is town. 326 I think in retrospect is Kaz just being super town. He feels the SvT in this grouping and when I am able to town case samcro he votes into the other rather than entertaining my Skitter suspicion. 430 and 431 on my initial gut read was that Kaz could just see how town I was and was sticking up for me genuinely in a way that wheme never really did - wheme TR me but he never really tried to defend me from anyone it was more like he just told me I was super town.

The most town thing about kaz is 224 kaz commits to TRing SAM and Griff if creative flips scum, as a mafia with possible tracker/FN alive committing that hard to this read he’d need to ML both skitter and whemstar to win with a possible invest alive this is just a suicidal post for a mafia to make. I think kaz is just town.

Skitter town:
This is probably the town case I doubt the most. I think skitter can still be mafia but my gut tells me she isn’t. I think most of this game is probably within skitters scum range. But 569 I think Skitter thinking creative was a villy was more believable than Wheme thinking he was PR. As a town I can say that creative invest claim was really surprising and skitter had the same feeling. Skitter also I cannot blame for not wanting to vote creative because his “flailing” in where’s words felt townie. 573 pings townie, would be very ballsy for a mafia to sus the guy screaming to hammer their partner if they knew their partner was A) on the chopping block B) about to out fake claiming cop when there could potentially still be a invest cc that screws over the mafia team. Also 564 skitter is the one who asks creative to claim yet creative actually blames wheme for making him.

But I honestly think the towniest thing about skitter is this 210 and 207, if scum really just took 3 days IRL for their master plan is to just hard align and shit push onto SAMCRO that is really ballsy. The other towniest thing about skitter is this: 94 feels like Creative slipping Skitter town “I am not saying me and skitter are masons but it is something to look for in people's later reads” part of me doubts that a mafia mentions the idea that they are masons with their mafia partner lol.

I think it is probably in skitters scum range to play like this but I want to vote with my gut and my gut on my initial read of the game was that skitter/creative wasn’t the exact solve and that I was TRing a mafia. Which brings me to wheme…

Wheme scum:
489 was the first time in real time that Wheme scum pinged me. It pings even harder scum in retrospect. He apparently thinks creative is super scum but is using my TR on him to get me to doubt my SAMCRO TR read, effectively protecting Creative and undermining his own vote. Creative’s d1 aligning can be explained because he felt fear that wheme would turn into the d1 vote, he light scums wheme but chooses to shit push onto pooky when pooky has town reactions to creative voting him and has to borrow kazyan’s read on spooky to continue justifying his vote. Creative scum cases wheme but then protects him with his vote. In fact Creative has been scum casing wheme the entire game but never has voted him once. 95-97 I think can be a plotted interaction to give wheme free town credit with the “Creative you’d be my town read” card and gives wheme an excuse to sus Creative to force a convincing rr and also an excuse to believe the claim and ultimately vote SAMCRO. 95 reads as wheme actually attempting to get spooky voted over himself, yet I cannot find an analogous entreaty from wheme on d2 when the guy he can’t imagine flilpping town is on the chopping block. 554 he actually expresses complacency, he doesn’t care that andante doesn’t want to hammer when the guy who is confirmed scum from his POV is at E-1. If I’m town there I would have been begging anyone to hammer. Wheme is an SE so he has no excuse. He never tries to get skitter or I or Andante to actually hammer or get skitter or I to doubt our TR on creative - he actually tried to get me to doubt my TR on SAMCRO instead in 489. This discordance makes me feel like wheme / creative is the scumpair.

If I am incorrect I apologize in advance town - I tried my best to help us win. I will listen to what you guys have to say, but I want to document this so that I can go back and know my independent feelings before I make any decisions. Last day phase I let myself get really influenced by your guys posts - I think if I learned anything from my first day of forum mafia, it’s that rereading your own posts is as important as reading others. And if I have my reads down here I can let myself be swept up in your theories and then safely return to mine and avoid being manipulated like yesterday.

I will consider what you guys have to say, but also want my reads down so I know what my true gut feeling was from night analysis.

I think I open this day by asking Kazyan does he see scum as more hard aligning or more distancing usually? Because that to me is the crux of the game - skitter hard aligning with creative I read town, wheme distancing from creative I read scum.

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Is it bad that I just want to sheep whatever Seeds's final conclusion is? I give him like a 2% chance of being a deepwolf, tops.

I'm praying your not mafia man because I'm literally never going to vote you LOL. Please be town Kaz I'll be so sad if you aren't.

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Also Fwiw my solve is entirely based on the idea that creative is scum if creative just claimed invest with a red as town villager then this game is basically over that's throwing dude. But fwiw Kaz I'm interested in discussing with you whether you think skitter could still be mafia because I do have a little fear she could have hard aligned and defended creative because I've played 0 forum mafia before and have little idea how scum normally play - I'm flying purely on my preconceived notion that scum distance.

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95-97 I think can be a plotted interaction to give wheme free town credit with the “Creative you’d be my town read” card

I mean "Creative you'd be my night kill."

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I guess Skitter bringing up the "I'm really good at distancing" point could be a way to diffuse suspicion of a Creative/Skitter pair, but like you said, scum don't want to talk about their scumgame.

Andante said that actually. I wasn't totally sure it was true. I honestly talk about my scum game as either alignment as Skitter brings up later in the game.

The other thing that scared me about skitter is that she planted the seed in my head that creative was actually newer than I thought which made me ignore the red flags that he claimed cop after being on E-1 for 24 hours when he supposedly had a red that let me ignore the red flags and just write it off to "ah that guy is just a noob."

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I did mess up, tbh I was gonna tank a kill after hoping to get a scum voted out because i realised at least one scum must have been hard defending samcro unless skitter was scum with him, I was also trying to bait a mafia into counter claiming me because I knew we were 2A and was hoping a mafia would cc me to stop their buddy being eliminated, to the scum that hard defended samcro, you could have got an easy miselim on him as he was acting so scummy, but I guess you have won anyway so gg but I won't vote myself, I think the quickhammer by wheme was scummy so I'd vote him

Uhhhhhh this makes literally no sense how would a mafia fake claim to save SAMCRO in final 7 if you were town lol, the game would literally be auto even if we voted you first. Anyways what Creative says from now on is WIFOM so I'll disregard it all.

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do you guys need anything from me here?

Honestly the first thing that scumpinged me about you was after T3 died saying SAMCRO was an easy town you just really thought SAMCRO was still scum, it seemed to me like a really bad sus as a newcomer to the game. Can you just go through all of the factors that lead to you suspecting SAMCRO over the others?

And what made you say Wheme wouldn't night kill T3?

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also pom now you can kinda see why quickvoting doesn't necessarily help so much
we really should have let the full claim thing play out, but at least a vt ate the nk

Yeah, I really regretted after the hammer came. I honestly didn't mean for them to vote with me just that second, just eventually.

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ngl the fact that they did kill andante almost does look like they were looking for an actual tracker

could be as well that she was just super obvtown but those are my thoughts

I was almost afraid mafia wheme/creative were going to kill me and then wheme would get andante to misvote on kaz using my idiotic EOD day 2 suspicions on kaz as a frame. It actually was kind of good I think in hindsite that andante never rr'd because I think her sus on kaz if she carried it into today could have lost town the game without making a good choice between skitter/wheme.

But yeah I think they had to kill andante because if she's tracker this game is just auto.

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indeed.
also if there actually is a tracker out there you wanna claim now?

Okay my huge paragraph was a joke skitter I'm tracker and I saw you visit Andante

gg you tried

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Was hoping it could serve as a reaction test but I guess I went too full on into VT tunnel mode for it to work anymore lol

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To be clear I am VT Kaz.

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I guess it really doesn't work at all because I as going on about wheme softing invest on d2.

WAIT it really doesn't work at all because mafia know there is no tracker LMAOOOOOOOOOO.

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omg, I'm so embarrassed I'm town slipping so much : blush : haha do u guys think I'm town now?

- My roleplay of 1612 from mafia.gg

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No claim. Still VT.

Speaking of that hammer, do we think Whemestar was trying to cut off conversation, or nah?

The hammer looks awful but I don't think you should read the game off of that because *shudders* it was too scummy to be scum. But actually maybe it looks really bad coming from an SE tbh, whereas the SAMCRO debacle d1 voting pooky was really actual too scummy to be scum

Actually its totally NAI I realize now because if Skitter is scum the mafia see they have no roleblockers or anything so there is no difference in waiting for andante to come back because they know no cc is coming and that they can always pull out a tracker RR at E-1 to last ditch live.

Damn I just realized this now I'm such an idiot I was like there is a 2/3 chance creative is town, if he's mafia he knows no cc is coming damnnnnnnnnn I am big time stupid

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like given the andante kill *now* it looks like we're in 2a and there really is a tracker out there who didn't cc you but like you couldn't have known that yesterday from a town perspective

Is this a town slip? Skitter is probably good enough to fake this as mafia - kill the only possible tracker and then act like there is a tracker waiting out there when they are really mafia and know its 2c. But it does actually read town in hindsight now that I actually understand wtf is going on. But that's something I could think to fake as mafia, although I do think it is town leaning.

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Okay my huge paragraph was a joke skitter I'm tracker and I saw you visit Andante

gg you tried

Seeds for the sake of my sanity I need you to clarify if you're joking or not

This is actually a town slip btw, it just didn't come from the person I needed it to come from because you are already town SMH

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Thinking back on Skitter, if she's going for a hard-alignment strategy, she's been doing it for literally the entire game. I'm not sure if scum can play counter to their own playstyle consistently for that long, even SEs.

Is Skitter's playstyle really to distance though? That specific line in this specific game "I wouldn't TR me for that I distance really hard" pings scummy actually.

When I am really feeling myself as mafia and my partner is a noobie I actually do hard TR them on d1 and then protect them the rest of the game and just go for ML after ML. It's good manners imo to hold your noobie close and give them their first scum win.

Do we have any completed skitter scum ISOs that I could look at to get a sense of whether skitter does normally distance? I wonder if it means anything that creative actually had a skitter scum ISO on hand, how on earth do you find such a thing? But given that it was illegal there was no way that Skitter gave that to him. Actually given that Creative did that illegally does that make skitter more townie I wonder? If he and skitter were plotting in a night chat she would have told him off, or maybe he did it organically with no planning? But skitter could have maybe given him a completed skitter scum ISO for creative to bring up if it was planned.

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I wonder if it means anything that creative actually had a skitter scum ISO on hand, how on earth do you find such a thing? But given that it was illegal there was no way that Skitter gave that to him. Actually given that Creative did that illegally does that make skitter more townie I wonder? If he and skitter were plotting in a night chat she would have told him off, or maybe he did it organically with no planning? But skitter could have maybe given him a completed skitter scum ISO for creative to bring up if it was planned.

Actually I wonder if scum Creative would check with scum skitter in the mafia night chat about whether what he was doing was illegal before posting that ISO. Maybe that gives skitter some town points.

Is me speculating about this illegal?

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Whemestar has been awfully quiet

This is NAI he's just not here imo.

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Is there a towncase on Whemestar? We have one for Skitter now, so I want to see if we can come up with a town reason for Whemestar's behavior. If not, then I say we just lock that in as our solve and hope to god we're right.

I can give this a try for a bit, let me think on it.

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For completed games where Skitter is scum, the most recent one on Skitter's wiki page is Mini 2049.

I'll look at this and then try to town case wheme.

Tbh skitter I'll be really impressed if you are mafia. Sussing wheme when he was yelling to hammer your partner is a really strong play if you are scum. Nerves of steel at 549 if you are scum. I double checked the logs to make sure you actually sussed wheme before andante did, if andante did it first then whatever, who cares about echoing. But to have the other SE in the game calling to hammer your partner scum when there's seemingly no other viable vote other than your partner - that's quite a strong play. This is actually mitigated by the fact that creative has the Tracker claim for free since we are in 2C, since if you are scum you know he likely won't actually be voted. So actually maybe it's not as townie as I initially thought.

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Do we think that Skitter would go this far out of her way to explain that what she's doing right now is consistent with her scumgame? I still can't see through WIFOM very well.

I mean if skitter is scum all she has to do is play nice with us and sit back at this point, all of the game solving info is already on the table and she has me seeming to side with her. I don't anything from this day skitter besides perhaps the 2A thing leaning town is that alignment indicative.

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I don't think I'm gonna change my mind on you at this point, Skitter. We just had like 6 new pieces of town evidence for you in a row, and this just...

I mean, it's Creative/Whemestar. And if I'm wrong, you deserve the win.

This is where I am at as well. But I am reviewing the game skitter posted for now and thinking on it. We should be patient and use our time imo Kaz, at least let Whemestar post and defend.

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Part of me will be mad salty if skitter is mafia and i came into this game hard voting her and then she turns out to be mafia but that is just me being salty lol.

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I catch scum on like page 5 and the reward I get is being their partner

Is that really all you have to say? All you did by your own words was PR read creative on d1. You didn't vote him or push him until 230. 423 is where you really start to push on him.

I think my question for you wheme is who is mafia here.

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Wait lol you come into today and there's all that content that has been posted and your response over the course of 1.5 hours is "Am I being trolled?"

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Wait lol you come into today and there's all that content that has been posted and your response over the course of 1.5 hours is "Am I being trolled?"

Never mind you've had 40 minutes.

Idk wheme maybe I'm an idiot. I'm quite willing to listen to who you think scum is now.

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Maybe a question I have is actually - does Skitter normally have good reads as town? Because I do think her reads were questionable at points in this game. I'm reading skitter's iso and she is exactly how I imagined her as mafia - almost all good mafia play a similar style. I'm still early in this game but the difference between the ISO skitter provides and this game is that her partner was super supicious on d1 so far in the other game. Maybe creative was a little suspicious here in this game but he was at least trying a lot harder. I still think her omgus on me was really weird, but maybe if she's scum I think I had andante / kaz / wheme sort of on my side initially so would that omgus have seemed suicidal for a mafia? Wouldn't a mafia try to pocket me there? I guess wheme wasn't really down with the skitter vote at that very moment.

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But maybe skitter is also just confident enough as mafia she'll be able to talk her way out of a vote and she'll be able to get me to question myself if she starts sussing me and getting me stressed out.

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I'm not scum lol, you can vote me out and scum will win, there is no point theorising partners if you decide to lynch me, I am town who attempted a gambit and it backfired because I can't read well if there are town who act super scummy

You don't seem very townie right now. If I was a town who claimed a fake red on a town going into ELO I would be really stressed out and upset. I might even just self vote out of being upset. You're not trying to game solve at all and posting a tongue sticking out emoji when you're in this situation you seem just mafia imo.

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Idrc about convincing seeds I’m not scum I think I only need to convince you

Well if you're town then this game is over and you might as well self vote because I'm town and you need me to vote correctly in order to win. I was also your biggest TR coming into today - your post here implies that I am mafia and thus my vote doesn't matter but you don't care to actually scum case me? Also if you are town here you need both the other town to vote correctly with you, "only needing kaz" on your side does not make sense from a town perspective, there are 3 towns in this game right now and all three must correctly coordinate and vote a mafia for the game to continue.

I don't really understand what you are saying in this quote, it makes no sense from a town POV.

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Idrc about convincing seeds I’m not scum I think I only need to convince you

Well if you're town then this game is over and you might as well self vote because I'm town and you need me to vote correctly in order to win. I was also your biggest TR coming into today - your post here implies that I am mafia and thus my vote doesn't matter but you don't care to actually scum case me? Also if you are town here you need both the other town to vote correctly with you, "only needing kaz" on your side does not make sense from a town perspective, there are 3 towns in this game right now and all three must correctly coordinate and vote a mafia for the game to continue.

I don't really understand what you are saying in this quote, it makes no sense from a town POV.

You act like mafia aren’t going to hard buss their scum claimed partner here

Okay okay fine. I just want you to give reads wheme.

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I'm not sure I got that much out of the skitter iso other than that everyone will TR her when she's scum lol just as I had assumed on d2.

I do still want to think this through properly I regret just insta voting SAM rather than taking my time.

My question for you guys is why did Andante die there?

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Samcro being scum makes me think his partner cannot be skitter.

If I am trying to town case whemestar can I see this post as townie? If he is scum skitter has pushed that he is sus, he knows that he needs another ML on someone to win the game wheme doesn't really seem to set up much of a plan in who to vote next if that can be considered townie. But maybe it's just that he knows SAMCRO is flipping town and can still call skitter scum the next day regardless.

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It stills doesn't make sense to ignore me wheme what if I just tunnel you and mafia kills kaz?

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Dude did you not think samcro was obv town ?

I don't think you understand the point I am making. It feels like you are not following my thoughts through. I was trying to express that you not really setting up who your next ML could be considered from a town perspective while Skitter seemed to be moving in to setup on you as an ML. But that if I assume you are mafia the quote loses its meaning in that context because SAMCRO will flip town and maybe in your mind skitter's push on you will lose its momentum in the town's mind.

All in all I'm not getting that much from the quote is what I'm saying.

I'm not sure what you questioning me accomplishes at this point.

Why do you think Andante died Kaz?

Do you think a scumCreative says on d1 to consider that maybe he is masons with skitter when skitter is scum?

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I'm not sure what you questioning me accomplishes at this point.

Im not liking a lot of your posts today so far and am trying to convince myself that your not a super deep wolf and its just the simple solve with skitter/creative

What do you not like about my posts? Can you point something out?

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The Andante kill doesn't have an obvious cause to me. Maybe it's that Andante's reads were a wildcard? They didn't say anything after the tracker claim.

I think you can interpret it in different ways but I don't want to express my thoughts until later - would prefer to hear other's (ie wheme and skitters) answers first.

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I have 0 reason to hard bus creative when it cmae to the samcro/creative 1v1

Still trying to towncase whemestar.

You do say you normally don't really read wallposts so maybe I need to post differently for you.

I did initally TR you for 231 maybe my scumcase for you is like super conspiracy theory kinda thing tbh and its my bias from my mafia experiences that scum distance typically but forum can be different who knows.

424 stuff like this normally pings town too, why would mafia admit they weren't really paying attention?

488 This is where I had a scumping on you. If you thought creative was so scum why were you trying to make me question my SAMCRO TR when I had just hard committed to SAMCRO town?

Honestly if I had been around when you were telling us to hammer creative I think I would have done it, but I was at work and by the time I came back he had rr'd.

592 reads town because it appears you are actually reading from the POV that sam is now scum which I did as well as town and you actually make a deduction based off of it that shows your brain is working, idk if I would make that kind of read as scum in that situation that feels like an organic thought.

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Wheme have you seen mafia open day 2 by just voting the same player together before after 3 nights of discussion? Did that ever put doubt in your mind? Do you think that Skitter would do that as mafia?

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i mean im not intending that as a townslip but i still can't tell if we're in 2a or 2c

Why did you say this skitter?

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Question to Kaz: Do you buy 760 as a hopefully town observer? Do you think that could be town wheme feeling overwhelmed?

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seeds i really admire your dedication and rereading, you're very thorough

No worries we have lots of time.

This is something a scum would say tho

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Skitter do you have a lot of experience with pooky?

This play from him currently seems fake and sounds like he’s trying to put on a front for no reason.

Unless he does this type of thing every game then that would change my mind.

Q for wheme: what was the front Pooky was putting on here?

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It is scary tbh that both T3 and SAMCRO said skitter was scum at points in the game tbh.

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A random thought that occurred to me. If Skitter is scum there with Creative - do you think she would have to clout to just straight up divert the vote off of Creative rather than Creative having to fake claim to live? Maybe scum skitter would be so pro she would have taken andante and I for a loop and gotten us to vote into Wheme or Kaz or something there, at least I had said I'm not hammering and Andante literally said she would vote with skitter so I think maybe she could have gotten that done and saved Creative without Creative having to out himself. Just a random thought as I eat dinner.

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Maybe skitter and creative could have been spooked by Andante toying with hammering. But skitter even said herself said she didn't think he was getting flipped 583 "oh man ... :/you maybe shouldn't have claimed just yet. i don't think you were imminently gonna flip

and i thought you were softing vt"

Could she have saved Creative without him outting? Maybe leading an ML on d2 would hurt Skitters town cred.

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Also another thought, I'm never going to TR someone for calling my reads bad again lol. Just because someone is being obnoxious doesn't make them town and I should stop rewarding that type of play.

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His tone was fake.

To me reading the game he was just big time memeing and nothing he did was alignment indicative until his defense from creative was "lol dude there were two votes" and that felt town - can you tell me a specific post where his tone felt fake to you?

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I don't know why pooky matters in any of this.

I'm examining your motivations for doing things that you did. That's basically what the game of mafia is lol.

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New avatar, anyways the unfortunate thing is that I'm pretty sure that independent of alignment skitter will always seem more town than wheme. Let's just take our time here for now.

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At least in terms of how skitter is able to explain herself and rationalize her actions. Wheme is a man of few words.

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How would you be able to bus me, I'm town lol. Since samcro died and flipped town I realized scum were doing it to get two miselims on a town and a town who was acting anti town

SAMCRO played weird and in a frustrating way, but don't call them anti town. They made a very questionable decision in voting but they sussed people and made arguments. Them afking is frustrating but you know there is more to life than this game. Now that we know they are town we know they played the game in an honest way so I won't stand for you insulting them.

Also Creative, if you are mafia - I very much don't appreciate you telling me that my reads are bad. Because if you are mafia you are basically just lying to me as a town when I am correct and telling me I'm very bad at reads - that is just very rude and not good manners. It's not good manners if you are town either, but at least I can excuse it as frustration. As mafia it's just obnoxious.

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Creative if you are a town all I can say is that someone who suspects you isn't necessarily mafia and that people can make bad plays as town it is up to you to read their intent. SAMCRO seemed pretty easily town to me before he afk'd and I was left alone with you guys questioning him. The play you made has made the game unwinnable for town there is no way we cannot vote you after that. If you are town I'll forgive you it's just a game.

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again if you think ive hard bussed all game and forced pressure on creative at L-1 just as soon as the wagon was about to fall apart then go ahead and think im scum.

That is what I'm thinking atm I am trying to give you a fair chance because I don't assume that I am correct I am fallible in making reads. Maybe in the post game chat I will be in for a big surprise.

But you aren't really trying to defend yourself that much or scum case skitter. If I was a town being wrongfully accused by the town in ELO I would be pulling out all of my arguments for who I think is the scum.

I have the day off from work so I'll read some more today.

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again if you think ive hard bussed all game and forced pressure on creative at L-1 just as soon as the wagon was about to fall apart then go ahead and think im scum.

Also you began to sus creative on d2, on d1 by your own word he was a PR read and you wanted him to live so I don't understand why you are saying you sussed him all game. Kaz and SAMCRO were the ones who suspected Creative on d1. Kaz was the one who voted him to open day 1. You did put pressure on creative at L-1 but the tone of your posts didn't really strike me as someone who was really trying to persuade any of us to hammer.

Skitter's argument that she would not have defended creative if he was about to out himself by fake claiming - what do you make of that Whemestar? Do you believe that?

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Idrc about convincing seeds I’m not scum I think I only need to convince you

I really don't understand how this post comes from a town POV still. Wheme is an SE, supposedly thinks that perhaps skitter is mafia and yet somehow his initial reaction to everything is - seeds is for sure going to be the night kill I just have to convince Kaz. This just reads as Wheme giving up trying to convince me he is town and flat out committing to night killing me tbh.

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Yeah, the narratives that Wheme is trying to tell aren't fitting together. He did pressure Creative on Day 2, but he wasn't all that present, and his arguments were basically "this post is scum" over and over again--performative, but lacking in substance. And even if we somehow had a crystal ball that told us you would be the nightkill regardless of what happens, you're the one leading this entire discussion. I'm pretty sure that you could talk us into eliminating Skitter on Day 4 rather than Wheme even if you were the only one convinced.

Kaz - a question to you: do you feel there is a chance that Creative could be town?

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Know what, I kinda just want to hammer Creative. is that a bad thought? Like, we gain something from a creative flip yes?

Thanks for your answer Kaz, was rereading this. Andante expresses they may hammer Creative.

537 Whemestar who is convinced that Creative is scum has a chance to say "YASSSSSSSSS HAMMER YAAAAASSSSSS DEW IT"

His response is instead "I haven’t really thought about what happens if creative flips town because there is no possibility for me that he does." This is not very convincing in getting Andante to hammer, she instead says lets not hammer and wait. Wheme's line also ends up making people sus of wheme instead. When skitter expresses sus on Wheme, wheme apparently doesn't really care that much about getting Creative hammered

575 "You can vote me since you aren’t gonna vote creative" I initially thought maybe that's a townie thing but for someone who is so convinced creative is scum why is that his response? Does he actually want the wagon swung onto him so it looks like creative is easy town? Creative has gotten TRs from me and skitter at this point and if SAM lives into ELO SAM is looking like an easy miselim. Idk I just feel like that's such a weird response from someone who fels they have scum on the chopping block.

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Anyways I see how long we have to decide wow. I think the game won't advance that much until Skitter returns.

Q: For skitter - is there a chance that Kaz is mafia still?

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Also Q: For skitter - why did Andante die?

[six pomegranate seeds]

If you are town and I am misreping you I apologize Wheme, but this is how I play town I read your posts through the lens that you are scum and the lens you are town and I pay attention to posts that give me a gut feeling you lean one way or the other. I'm just playing the game. If you're really town I need you to defend yourself help me find the 2nd mafia.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I honestly had a little paranoia that Creative could be town but this particular observation makes me feel comfortable he isn't:

Skitter 31
Creative 11
seeds 65
Kaz 21
Wheme 22
Post count so far excluding the past couple of posts (I counted this up earlier this afternoon)

Creative went from top poster to ghost mode, consistent with the fact that he's just outted. I think Kaz's answer to Creative being mafia was fine, didn't lean one way or the other too much.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Does anyone have a completed town or scum ISO of Wheme?

[six pomegranate seeds]

My question for you guys is why did Andante die there?

honestly i'm not sure - she was leaning towards wheme + creative and iirc your reads were uncertain eod yesterday so maybe they thought you might rethink things in a way more favorable to them overnight? idk

These were my thoughts on Andante kill:

Andante kill I feel points to wheme I’m alive for scumming Kaz/Skitter whereas Andante TR skitter feel like skitter would keep andante around? Unless this is total bait to mess with my mind because I’ve already revealed to skitter how I interpret night kills with my reads on T3s messages. Can andante dying implicate Kaz a little bit as mafia? Maybe a little bit.

I'm hoping the Andante kill means that your town in other words. I'm not sure why'd you kill the person who said they would vote with you unless it's purely a gambit based on what you know about how I interpret night kills.

It kind of sucks I joined this game on d2 because I feel like you'd be very hard to catch as mafia in one or two days skitter.

[six pomegranate seeds]

ok that was less than i thought.
seeds if i owe you anything else would you mind requoting it please?

Could you walk me through your mindset on why you were sussing SAMCRO over everyone else?

[six pomegranate seeds]

I would appreciate greater detail but you can also just give whatever analysis you think is helpful for you to game solve at this point. Rereading Kaz from you POV is helpful to me too.

[six pomegranate seeds]

94 threw me way off

what exactly about 94 threw you off so much to change your read?

That was a sort of sharpish turn from "obv town" to "maybe not obv town"

I would prefer to not talk about it until later

for this whole sequence of posts to, like, make sense they had to have been planning the fake-claim from very, very, very early on. otherwise i actually think it's anti-partner-y

like ither they started teh game planning this out, or they're not aligned imo

Those series of posts is where I actually first TR wheme on my first read through. I thought he himself was softing invest there. I thought he was implying he was PR reading creative then when creative reveals he doesn't know which PRs there are in the game then maybe wheme changes his mind. But to me it does actually kind of make sense for both of them to breadcrumb an invest soft because they know it's 2C from the get go. And I thought that Wheme PR reading Creative on d1 as a partner gives him a great excuse to push him d2 but then ultimtely unvote and swing off creative and misvote on d2 while still accruing the town credit of having pushed him.

Honestly the thing you told me about how you would have been distancing from Creative if you knew he was going to fake claim invest makes total sense to me. Wheme was the one distancing the most right before the fake claim. Kaz had just parked vote but really didn't play up his sus that much - he actually was more like "I'll vote SAM / Creative in any order" which seems like a really bad way to bus your partner because it barely sounds townie lol.

[six pomegranate seeds]

This didn't dawn on me until this day to be honest but to me if I'm mafia in this setup and I see we have two goons then one of us should definitely fake claim something I think, especially if it's later revealed that its not the masons setup 3c. There's a 2/3 chance if its 1c or 2c that you get a free RR with no cc. If you know there's a jailkeeper you claim tracker if you know there's a cop you claim doctor.

[six pomegranate seeds]

they know it's 2C from the get go.

I realize now this isn't actually true they only knew 2c after T3 days.

It seems like you are reading yourself into SRing me skitter.

[six pomegranate seeds]

This didn't dawn on me until this day to be honest but to me if I'm mafia in this setup and I see we have two goons then one of us should definitely fake claim something I think, especially if it's later revealed that its not the masons setup 3c. There's a 2/3 chance if its 1c or 2c that you get a free RR with no cc. If you know there's a jailkeeper you claim tracker if you know there's a cop you claim doctor.

yeah but you might run into masons
it's worht a shot but it tends to look very suspect tbh given that people know that those setups are ripe for fake-claiming

Well I didn't know that I didn't actually think through that mafia knows the setup until D3. I thought that Creative was just hoping there was no tracker to cc him.

[six pomegranate seeds]

This is good, actually. It means that if we flip Creative and he's scum, then we have two almost-confirmed townies.

bizarre thing to write about a partner

224 is the quote from my synthesis that is the most townie thing from kaz. It's less townie in retrospect now that I realize that mafia was aware there are no more power roles left after T3 dies, but I still think it's backing Kaz into a corner because there's no guarentee the SAM slot or the grif slot will end up TRing him for this post and he will need skitter/wheme MLs back to back to win if the creative vote goes through.

[six pomegranate seeds]

~
like for the above post: scum-wheme is hardtownreading sam because he shares a scumread on his partner? like that's a weird pov/take, no?

He's hard townreading Sam to take the opposite side of creative on the argument and also gets easy town credit if SAMCRO flips town from defending him when no one else will imo. I most commonly do this when I'm mafia, I'll pick a town and hard defend them and then some people maybe get sus of them if I die or if they die then I look more town. It was super easy to do it too becaue everyone else in the town as sussing on SAMCRO you/creative/Kaz were all willing to vote. Doesn't scum wheme look pretty bad if he's just like "yeah I agree let's quickhammer this bad boy." As scum I think it'd be fine to defend SAMCRO and scum Creative on d2 especially knowing creative can claim tracker at this point if he gets into danger.

You're absolutely about to SR me skitter there's no other place for you to go with this.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I assume 1 of 4 things is

T3 Roleblocked the other power role - if this is the case don't claim
Tracker got no incriminating result or neighbour didn't send a message
Friendly neighbour targeted an inactive or the tracker is inactive
We only had the one power

All of these make sense with no claim

Again only claim if you're the tracker with an incriminating result, only claim who is friendly neighbour if it will help decide a lynch candidate/stop a town being lynched. don't claim if roleblocked

what on earth is this if he's scum knowing that he's planning on fake-claiming tracker (which would be what scum-wheme/scum-creative in my mind would necessitate given that sequence of posts i quoted earlier)

I'm not sure why you have to say it's absolutely necessary that Wheme knew Creative would fake claim tracker for those 90s posts to be compatible with a scum wheme/scum Creative pairing. You can read it as just plan distancing.

And the quote you're providing from creative was at a point where creative did not look like he was going to be the vote. Creative says a lot of weird stuff on d2 that implies he's a VT.

If you're really going to say that wheme/creative cannot be paired due to the 90s posts unless the tracker claim was premeditated from d1 then all I'm going to say is that I think that is a false assumption. Even if wheme doesn't bring up later that he was PR reading creative it can be read as light scumming creative, but wheme remains parked on pooky rather than pushing creative with SAMCRO.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I actually now saw that Creative and Wheme voted together on Pooky on D1 which made me lose some confidence so I reread this portion of the game.

At post #50 there are two votes on wheme (kaz/pooky) / two votes on pooky (SAMCRO / whemestar)

#55 creative jumps in with his vote that puts 3 votes on pooky (SAMCRO / whemestar / Creative) saying this is a gut read. I wonder if this is just scum making sure that pooky will be the default vote over their partner if no one comes to a conclusion at EOD since they have more votes. Losing your partner on d1 would be impossible to recover from on d1. This could explain creative’s impulse to jump in here with a shit push on pooky.

I'll repost this from before, I do think both creative and wheme light scumming each other but not voting each other is a common example of partner distancing. Wheme's distancing from creative in the 90s posts has a more sophisticated flavor to it in that it provides an excuse not to vote creative on d1 (he's a PR) but then allows wheme to vote creative with internal consistency on d2 - and even allows him to unvote with internal consistency on d2 when creative claims PR. I don't think they needed to have the PR claim 100% planned on d2 unless it became necessary for this form of distancing between mafia partners to be possible.

This is all written form the POV of assuming wheme is scum.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Ok im here.

Seeds what do you think of creative?
Andante what do you think of creative?

Im much more confident with a Creative vote here than I am a skitter vote.

again bizarre knowing what creative is about to come up with

Why is it bizzare if whemestar knows that creative can claim tracker if he gets into trouble? Wheme can push safely knowing his partner would have a safety valve.

[six pomegranate seeds]

VOTE: Creative

so, what, he's planned with his partner that he's going to fake-claim tracker and votes him to e1 here? like idk

I did the same exact thing as you skitter. I said creative was town and that I wasn't going to vote him. I can say the exact same thing to you that you can say to me. Why would I be defending creative if he is about to out to claim tracker?

[six pomegranate seeds]

i didn't actually accuse you of that yet but ok
like i saw that, thoguht it, but didn't actually write it anywhere

With all due honest skitter, I have a functioning brain and I can already tell from the assumptions you have made you are going to SR me unless you change your assumption that 90s clears wheme / creative scumpair if the tracker claim was not premeditated from d1 (which it may or may not have been I don't really know).

You are accusing me of pre emptively accusing myself, with all due honesty I can simply read and I new from the post you assume wheme - creative cannot be scum pair from 90s that you would SR me, there is no other option. I am simply addressing what I know is coming at this point.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Then maybe you are scum then skitter.

Maybe I have misplayed thinking that wheme / creative was the solve and you will attempt to ML me with wheme in final 3. I honestly have no idea how people can think I'm mafia at this point. I have really tried my best as town.

If you are town then this is simply disappointing.

[six pomegranate seeds]

You have just told me that normally scum distance and wheme and creative have done just that - I invite you to reread my synthesis post in 665 where I detail how creative light scums wheme but stays parked on pooky on d1, a classic example of distancing.

You say "i have never seen scum townread a partner off of a fake-crumb that didn't exist in all of my years of playing mafia."

I've never seen it either. It doesn't mean I'm going to ignore other evidence and assume this can't be the pair.

I actually wrote this out prior in my night time writings but didn't post becaue I didn't see it as relevant anymore. I also wrote a piece defending Kaz from andante if andante was still alive too.

To skitter re: why I'm town:

I am town. I think andante identifying as as TvT was a very townie thing from him and I think he is town for reasons outlined above. I am hoping he is correct in this. I hope now that you see that SAMCRO was town why I suspected you so much. I thought that an SE would be able to see what an easy town SAMCRO was because on my initial skim I thought there was no way that scum SAMCRO kills T3 when T3 basically thought SAM was auto town. And the way you just went into SAMCRO looked like you were pushing a horrible miselim on what I thought was the towniest player in the game. My gut instinct always tells me an aggressor is more town than a reactor (SAM shot first in the battle with creative) and that SAM saying I don’t care if you vote me vote creative next was very town. Unfortunately creative then copied the same tactic in SAM’s absence and was able to soap opera while SAM was afk and cause my conviction to waver with time. But I hope you see now that if you are really town how I could have honestly suspected you given you were hard aligning with a mafia voting a town - I just couldn’t tell you were the town in the two of you. I wrote in my initial synthesis of the game that you and creative did not feel like the solve, I just picked the wrong one in the two of you to push because I thought you as an SE would know better and honestly I agreed with some of the things you TR Creative for. I also think that you and I both shared the same in real time reactions to Creative being at E-1, we both thought he was easily town and you even started becoming suspicious of wheme for thinking otherwise. I think the fact we were on the same wavelength in that situation should signal to you that we are both thinking on a townie wavelength. Wheme if he is scum has no way of being able to read the game honestly and so he stood out to both you and andante as feeling weird, because as a town in that situation you felt a lot of doubt - you didn’t feel good about hammering creative you felt scared. I hope you can also appreciate the symmetry that Creative TR you and pushed on me and Wheme TR me and pushed on you (albeit more subtly he said at one point he shared my reads except he had creative as more sus than you).

[six pomegranate seeds]

You even say yourself that the breadcrumb from Creative didn't exist. How do you read Wheme's PR read as genuine when it didn't seem like it was even there. Creative was just saying a lot of weird stuff about PRs, he seemed like a VT to me. I wasnt seeing any PR softs from #94 or any adjacent posts. He seemed like VT to me up until he rr'd and I reread things with rose colored glasses.

I'm not going to just blindly scum read you for pushing me tbh. I'll take some time off it's possible you could push me here as town. My gut from night time analysis is that you're town.

I think one of the biggest reasons I want to believe you were town is that Andante called you and me TvT and they died, and I want to believe that what they saw from us was a genuine good read. Andante made that read with the pure intentions of a town and I want to believe it can be true.

I'll ask Kaz whether Skitter feels town here.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I will say that the symmetry of both Wheme and Skitter beginning to suspect me makes it harder to differentiate between the two of them. Skitter provides more reasoning but at the same time I've had the experience of being mafia in final 3 and then reviewing logs as if I was a villager and then finding a rationale to hard push one of the villagers so that my argument sounded more genuine so I could get the misvote.

It's hard to get much thought process out of wheme so he is hard to read.

Being sussed perhaps dulls my reads and stresses me out. My read before this happened was whemestar scum I'll leave my read at that for now and not get wrapped up in being pushed by skitter and come back later with a cooler head.

[six pomegranate seeds]

No you're right tbh. I said in the post a little down I was just getting heated from being pushed and that I need to cool off. And I didn't really think it through that making it more complicated is maybe in some sense unnecessary from your scum POV.

I will be honest tho I do make things more complicated than they have to be almost laways as scum just because it does seem townie and is just a good play. But you are right I was pretty committed to whemestar sus, maybe you wouldn't have done this as mafia.

Perhaps I am just being emotional. My read for now probably remains whemestar scum I'll think about it more later.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I take back when I said maybe you are scum - that was an emotional reaction rather than a read I made using my gut and my brain.

I will let you solve uninterrupted go ahead.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I'm likely done making any reads for the night but will check back in to see if anyone else posts.

[six pomegranate seeds]

and tbh the whole emotional response to my analysis is probably +town?
maybe i should just assume you aren't, like, godtier scum and can't/wouldn't fake that just there
idk

(i hope this wasn't an offensive thing to say. if you're scum here you're clearly, very, very, very good at this. i'm just thinking that maybe the simple explanation is that you're really town just pouring your heart and soul into it vs. someone who's very skilled at faking emotion, analysis, and on-the-spot thinking. like maybe i should just assume this is all genuine and not get too worried about the musings of a paranoid brain)

I think I can be pretty good at faking analysis and on-the-spot thinking. I've had some pretty good scum games on my home site where I've surprised good players when the game ended with me as scum. It's probably much different than being scum in these forum games though, idk how good I'd be at that. I'm better at being able to sound like I'm spewing town as scum than plotting out a course of MLs with my partner in night chat which to me seems more important in these forum games.

Speaking honestly I don't think I fake emotion as scum much, if ever. I went through a phase where I would throw games as mafia because I just didn't really care about being mafia, I much prefer being town and I didn't feel like lying to people. But then other players expressed to me that they were upset with me for ruining games so I started trying harder. I think for a lot of players it's true that people more commonly get emotional when they are town. That's true for me as well.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I'll ask Kaz whether Skitter feels town here.

What Skitter is telling us is that, despite everyone agreeing in the miselim, she wants to go through every single interaction and make sure the solve fits. We also know she's not just stalling for time to get a no-elim day, because she explicitly brought up not losing track of Creative. So, yeah, this is town. But again, with Seeds and Skitter being very town, I keep bringing myself back to Whemestar because he's the only other option.

With his being so hard to read and laconic, I get the feeling that his posts are just...kind of random, maybe? That may be why it's so hard to produce a narrative for Whemestar, if he's just reacting in-the-moment. Maybe we can't figure out what his plans are if he doesn't have a plan.

It's good you think she's town. I think trying hard is not very alignment indicative - it would seem more sus for skitter to just show up at night and say "well I think this is basically over let's quick hammer!" than to do what she's doing now.

But I think the reasons I want to TR skitter is that creative brought up the idea he is a mason with her d1, that Creative posted an illegal incomplete ISO when it feels like he could have asked her for one if he was in a mafia chat with her (maybe this is a bit NAI if he just posted without asking), and I think most of all Andante is now confirmed town and she said that Skitter and I were TvT. I think the andante night kill supports the skitter town case as well and I lived for scumming you kaz and skitter, although I had revealed to skitter how I interpret night kills and that technically can be a gambit to get me to TR scum skitter. These seem like real reasons to me.

I'll think about it more tomorrow.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I hope you are a town Kaz. I will be sad if you are mafia.

Good night.