Datisi's Mini Normal Review, March 2021

[Datisi]

hello!

i wanted to try to design a setup with 3 mafia doctors and a town gunsmith. i couldn't figure out the balance range though, because it seemed to me that the town needed a decent amount of power as long as they didn't know the scumteam is 3 doctors, but as soon as they figured it out, the game would turn way too townsided. i tried to balance it by making it public info that there is at least one mafia doctor in game (so that at least the gunsmith immediately knows the innos aren't clearing and that the rolecop knows the "doctor" result is a guilty), but i'm still not sure if it's right.

while i know it's within the normal rules, would something like this be considered too out of the ~normal vibe~? having an investigative that gets a false positive result on the entire scumteam?

oh, and as usual all pts have daytalk.

[Datisi]

My main concern factor is funness--technically not a reviewing requirement, but I don't think the gunsmith is going to have much fun this game.

yeah, this worried me as well. i even imagined a scenario where the gunsmith claimed and people were taking his clears to be soft-innocents (despite the public information) - the outcomes of executions would then solely depend on whether it was town or scum that got "cleared" by him, which i imagine wouldn't be that fun. i'm not sure if there's a way to offset this without just revealing somewhere that the scumteam is nothing but doctors, which isn't something i want to do.

[Datisi]

how do i have a town gunsmith who is (almost) completely mechanically useless without the player feeling like i'm a bastard mod who's bribing implo to let me into the normal queue.

also 2 should say "false negative". i think. it's late.

[Datisi]

hm, i see the queue is moving. bump?

could there be an extra way to tip the gunsmith off without plainly giving away the gimmick? maybe something like "you're informed that 4 players in the game (including yourself) would show up as "having a gun" to a gunsmith"?

i'd imagine the town would have to lose some power then, as this info would maybe screw with scum once massclaim happens.

[Datisi]

maybe even:

town odd-night rolecop neighbour
town even-night neapolitan neighbour
town informed gunsmith (there are 4 players in the game that show up as having a gun)
town backup vigilante
6x vt
3x mafia doctor

public info: there is at least one mafia doctor in the game.

switching rolecop and neap around (so that the one who can get hard guilties goes first), ditching the pt cop, adding informed to the gunsmith, and making a sorta miller sorta clearable (depending on who scans him) named townie

arguably i could just ditch the hood too since there's no more pt cop

[Datisi]

actually changing the backup vig for another vt would be +town because both rolecop and neap can clear him then, and less chance gunsmith outs himself on a false positive?

town odd-night rolecop neighbour
town even-night neapolitan neighbour
town informed gunsmith (there are 3 players in the game that show up as having a gun)
7x vt
3x mafia doctor

hmm. probably still weak for town?

toying with the idea of making it a masonry instead of a hood. would that swing it back too much? maybe swapping the odd- and even-night modifiers around again...

[Datisi]

i like funky informed information. the only problem i have is that all my recent games seem to feature a mafia informed i don't think the informed slapped on a doc makes much difference for other roles (still gives the same results to most investigatives here, and the "doctor" result is a guilty anyway) so i'm fine with it

actually, that doesn't count for the "there is at least one mafia doctor" public info, right? i'll probably reword it so that the doc may or may not have modifiers.

anyway, i think i might wanna ditch the pt cop? you said the town's power roles are incredibly likely to already get townread themselves, and a possible 3 extra clears in the first 2 nights make me uneasy. of course, it's possible that the investigatives start tripping over themselves, and i'm making a 3 mafia doc + town gunsmith game so isn't that subconsciously what i want, but it still feels maybe too swingy.

i like the setup in 9 for everything except the fact that "there are 3 roles including you that have a gun" is close to giving away the whole gimmick immediately.

town odd-night rolecop neighbour
town even-night neapolitan neighbour
town informed gunsmith (there are 4 players in the game that show up as having a gun)
town backup vigilante
6x vt
1x mafia informed doctor (there is an informed town aware that 4 roles in the game show up as having a gun)
2x mafia doctor

i just realized the mafia informed also gives scum the information immediately...

anyway, i think i wanna try from this one. i'm not a huge fan of "hi, your purpose in life is to be a gunsmith miller", but giving any actual power instead feels like it balances it back too much.

i'll try to think a bit more (a bit short on time atm), would like to hear if you have any suggestions.

[Datisi]

town odd-night rolecop neighbour
town even-night neapolitan neighbour
town informed gunsmith (there are 4 players in the game that show up as having a gun)
town personal pt cop
6x vt
1x mafia informed doctor (there is an informed town member aware that 4 players in the game show up as having a gun)
2x mafia doctor

i'm wondering if this falls back to the problem of "town becomes too strong once they figure out all scum are doctors because it conftowns town power roles if they all claim (and scum claims non-gun roles), and anyone who got a "vanilla" result on them from the rolceop". it feels tricky trying to balance around guessing when/if the town's gonna realize that.

[Datisi]

i feel like i might be spamming here but whatever

town odd-night rolecop mason
town even-night neapolitan mason
town informed gunsmith (there are 3 players in the game that show up as having a gun)
7x vt
1x mafia informed doctor (there is an informed town member aware that 3 players in the game show up as having a gun)
2x mafia doctor

i have some sorta hunch that the neighbours will be treated as conftown when they claim anyway. i also have a feeling that the "personal pt cop" claim is gonna be treated as town, especially if there's 1 scum left, and having "extra" conftowns when one scum left feels like... not that good of a design.

i'm still spitballing here, but. this setup has a problem that the town figures out ~the gimmick~ much sooner i think, but it feels more elegant? i dunno. i'm not 100% which way i wanna take this to minimize players hating me post-game. maybe making rc/neap even more night specific as opposed to odd/even?

[Datisi]

hold on
detectives have a gun

1x town odd-night neapolitan
1x town even-night rolecop
1x town 1-shot detective
1x town informed gunsmith (there are 4 players in the game that show up as having a gun)
6x vt
1x mafia informed doctor (there is an informed town member aware that 4 players in the game show up as having a gun)
2x mafia doctor

maybe something like this? my only worry again is that this is breakable by massclaim. i worry if i include an odd-night and an even-night power role, that people automatically assume both are town. hm.

1x town non-consecutive night neapolitan
1x town night 2 rolecop
1x town 1-shot detective
1x town informed gunsmith (there are 4 players in the game that show up as having a gun)
6x vt
1x mafia informed doctor (there is an informed town member aware that 4 players in the game show up as having a gun)
2x mafia doctor

this is functionally almost equivalent (assuming the neap uses his power as soon as possible, and the rolecop dies before day 5)

lol i'm sorry for going back and forth so much
i think i like this one the most so far
how does it look balance / breakableness wise

(also i should mention i'm trying to aim for a slightly scumsided setup since it seems like after every single game players call my games townsided)

i'm rambling
anyway

[Datisi]

alright, sounds good. i wanted to try to figure out my own formatting for role PMs and the ruleset (because so far i've just copy/pasted others' formats, so now i'll try to more subtly steal it) so it will bit a bit for me to type that up (maybe tonight, maybe tomorrow morning) but i will get that done Soon(tm).

[Datisi]

Spoiler: role pm's

vanilla townie

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

vanilla townie

.

role abilities:

~ you have no special abilities.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town non-consecutive night neapolitan

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town non-consecutive night neapolitan

.

role abilities:

~ during the night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is a

vanilla townie

. you cannot use this ability two nights in a row.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town night 2 rolecop

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town night 2 rolecop

.

role abilities:

~ once in the game, on night 2 only, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn that player's role (but not their alignment).

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town one-shot detective

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town one-shot detective

.

role abilities:

~ once in the game, during the night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will discern whether that player has performed a killing action on another player this game. you will receive a "negative result" on those that have not done so, or a "positive result" on those that have done so. you will receive "no result" if your action is blocked. this ability resolves after killing actions submitted for the same night.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town informed gunsmith

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town informed gunsmith

.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player has a gun.
~ roles that have a gun are: all mafia (except traitors and doctors), cops, vigilantes, gunsmiths, rolecops, vanilla cops, pt cops, vengefuls, detectives, neapolitans, backups of roles with guns and joats that have any of these listed powers.
~ you know that there are 4 players in the game, including yourself, that would show as "having a gun" to a gunsmith.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

mafia informed doctor

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

mafia informed doctor

.

factional abilities:

~ you are a member of the mafia, along with

playername

and

playername

, who are both

mafia doctors

.
~ once every night, a living member of the mafia may submit a factional kill action.
~ you may talk with your living teammates in the mafia private topic, located here. you may talk there at any time as long as you are alive.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, that player will be protected from one kill that night.
~ you know that there is an informed town player who knows that there are 4 players in the game, including themself, that would show as "having a gun" to a gunsmith.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to the mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occurring) and at least one mafia player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name or by posting in the mafia pt.

mafia doctor

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

mafia doctor

.

factional abilities:

~ you are a member of the mafia, along with

playername

, who is a

mafia informed doctor

, and

playername

, who is a

mafia doctor

.
~ once every night, a living member of the mafia may submit a factional kill action.
~ you may talk with your living teammates in the mafia private topic, located here. you may talk there at any time as long as you are alive.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, that player will be protected from one kill that night.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to the mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occurring) and at least one mafia player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name or by posting in the mafia pt.

Spoiler: result pm's

neapolitan:
- "

playername

is a

vanilla townie

."
- "

playername

is

not

a

vanilla townie

."
- "your action failed, and you did not receive a result."

rolecop:
- "

playername

is

vanilla

."
- "

playername

is a

non-consecutive night neapolitan

."
- "

playername

is a

one-shot detective

."
- "

playername

is an

informed gunsmith

."
- "

playername

is an

informed doctor

."
- "

playername

is a

doctor

."
- "your action failed, and you did not receive a result."


detective:
- "you receive a positive result on

playername

- they have actively killed another player, or attempted to kill another player but failed."
- "you receive a negative result on

playername

- they have never attempted to kill another player."
- "your action failed, and you did not receive a result."

gunsmith:
- "

playername

has a gun."
- "

playername

does

not

have a gun."
- "your action failed, and you did not receive a result."

Spoiler: ruleset

rules

shamelessly stolen

inspired by plotinus' and schadd_'s rulesets.

the tl;dr:

~ day 1: 10 days. days 2+: 8 days. nights: 2 days.
~ majority executes.
~ 36 hour before prod, 24 hours before replacement.
~ if you want to replace out, pm me.
~ don't be a dick.

the basics:

~ follow all site rules.
~ my mod colour is

teal

. you can use it if you want, just don't attempt to impersonate me.
~ you may not talk to each other about this game outside of threads i have created for this purpose. you may not talk about other ongoing games in this thread.
~

if you wish to replace out, pm me, do not request replacement in thread.

do not discuss your reasons for replacing out publically. do not threaten to replace out or tell other players to replace out. if you have any concerns that a player should be replaced, pm me.
~ do not quote pm's from the mod at all, either real or fabricated. this includes specific timestamps. paraphrasing is acceptable.
~

don’t be a dick.

this is a heated game but toxicity will not be tolerated. attack the play not the player. if your fellow players tell you to stop, you must stop. if you do not stop, i will tell you to stop. if you still do not stop, you will be force-replaced.
~ play to win. seriously claiming scum with another player is against the rules. i will judge what counts as serious - don't toe the line.
~ if you have any questions about the rules, feel free to pm me.

days and voting:

~ day 1 lasts up to 10 real-life days. days 2+ last up to 8 real-life days.
~ extensions may or may not be granted if there are replacements, or if the circumstances call for it (for example, if the site was experiencing issues).
~ votes must be in bold in the format VOTE: datisi or

vote: datisi

. Strong preference for using vote tags instead of bold tags. unvotes are nice but not required. type [

v]datisi[

/v] to vote and [

uv]datisi[

/uv] to unvote.
~ you can use nicknames when voting, as long as it is clear who you're referring to.
~ if i think it’s a vote, it’s a vote.
~ days end early when a simple majority of players (50% of living players + 1 rounded down) vote to execute somebody.
~ if a majority is not reached at deadline or if a majority of the players vote for no execution, the day will end without an execution. at evens, 50% is sufficient for no execution.
~ twilight begins when a majority is reached and lasts until i lock the thread. you're still alive until i flip you so you can talk in any game threads you have access to until then, but no votes or unvotes will be counted.
~ it takes (100% of living players + 1) votes to execute the moderator.

activity and v/la:

~ you must post at least once every 36 hours or i will prod you. you then have 24 hours to post in the game thread or i will replace you. if you come back before i find a replacement, you can stay.
~ if i have to prod you for the fourth time, i will automatically start searching for a replacement.
~ if you haven't posted in the 24 hours before the thread is locked for night, you must reply to the night start pm or you will be replaced during the night.
~ players can request me to prod somebody early. this will only count as an official prod if you don't post before you would have been due for a prod.
~ if you need to be absent for longer than 36 hours, you should declare

v/la

in bold in the thread like this: [

b]

@mod: I will be v/la until thursday

[

/b]. while you are v/la, you will be nudged once every 60 hours. two nudges equals one prod. if you have not posted game advancing content in 5 days, regardless of v/la status, you will be replaced.
~ a naked "prod dodge" does not reset the prod timer. to avoid being prodded/replaced for inactivity, include some game advancing content in your prodges, such as "got prodded; datisi is still scum."

nights and night actions:

~ nights last 48 hours.
~ the night phase can be shortened if every living player -- even those with no night actions -- agrees to it and if I'm not busy.
~ you may submit actions via pm. if you have a scum pt, a mason pt, or a notes pt, you may also submit your actions there. if the actions are not submitted by the deadline then you do nothing. you can change your mind as many times as you like before the deadline.
~ if i don't hear from you about your night actions, i'll pm you 24 hours before the deadline. this doesn't count as a prod. if i still don't hear from you, you will take no action.

miscellaneous:

~ let me know if you want a private thread to store your thoughts and feedback for the other players. you may draft posts in your notes pt if the posts are clearly meant to be posted in the main thread. you may not directly quote from the notes pt. you may not use it to demonstrate that you've had a town mindset in private all along; just put your town mindset in public to begin with and keep your notes to yourself.
~ provable randomness is against the rules. saying that you rolled a dice is fine, using dice tags or random.org screenshots is not.
~ no hard to read / extremely small text. cryptography is forbidden. breadcrumbing is okay.
~ using scripts to alter or hide another player's posts is not allowed.
~ the mod may make mistakes. minor errors (such as a mistake in the vote counter) can be pointed out in-thread. for bigger errors, please pm me.
~ i reserve the right to alter/remove/add any rules as i see fit. you will be notified if this happens.

setup information:

~ this is a normal game.
~ any and all private topics will be open at all times.
~ there is comfirmed to be a

mafia doctor

in this setup, who may or may not have some number of modifiers.
~ sample vanilla townie role pm:

Spoiler:

vanilla townie

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

vanilla townie

.

role abilities:

~ you have no special abilities.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

i'm aware that there's no way an action can get blocked but i'm writing the results out anyway.

[Datisi]

Spoiler: role pm's

vanilla townie

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

vanilla townie

.

role abilities:

~ you have no special abilities.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town non-consecutive night neapolitan

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town non-consecutive night neapolitan

.

role abilities:

~ during the night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is a

vanilla townie

. you cannot use this ability two nights in a row.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town night 2 rolecop

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town night 2 rolecop

.

role abilities:

~ once in the game, on night 2 only, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn that player's role (but not their alignment).

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town one-shot detective

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town one-shot detective

.

role abilities:

~ once in the game, during the night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will discern whether that player has performed a killing action on another player this game. you will receive a "negative result" on those that have not done so, or a "positive result" on those that have done so. you will receive "no result" if your action is blocked. this ability resolves after killing actions submitted for the same night.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town informed gunsmith

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town informed gunsmith

.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player has a gun.
~ roles that have a gun are: all mafia (except traitors and doctors), cops, vigilantes, gunsmiths, rolecops, vanilla cops, pt cops, vengefuls, detectives, neapolitans, backups of roles with guns and joats that have any of these listed powers.
~ you know that there are 4 players in the game, including yourself, that would show as "having a gun" to a gunsmith.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

mafia informed doctor

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

mafia informed doctor

.

factional abilities:

~ you are a member of the mafia, along with

playername

and

playername

, who are both

mafia doctors

.
~ once every night, a living member of the mafia may submit a factional kill action.
~ you may talk with your living teammates in the mafia private topic, located here. you may talk there at any time as long as you are alive.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, that player will be protected from one kill that night. you

cannot

perform this action and the factional kill in the same night.
~ you know that there is an informed town player who knows that there are 4 players in the game, including themself, that would show as "having a gun" to a gunsmith.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to the mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occurring) and at least one mafia player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name or by posting in the mafia pt.

mafia doctor

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

mafia doctor

.

factional abilities:

~ you are a member of the mafia, along with

playername

, who is a

mafia informed doctor

, and

playername

, who is a

mafia doctor

.
~ once every night, a living member of the mafia may submit a factional kill action.
~ you may talk with your living teammates in the mafia private topic, located here. you may talk there at any time as long as you are alive.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, that player will be protected from one kill that night. you

cannot

perform this action and the factional kill in the same night.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to the mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occurring) and at least one mafia player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name or by posting in the mafia pt.

i thought it was "no multitasking unless otherwise stated", but i'll add it.

[Datisi]

Spoiler: role pm's

vanilla townie

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

vanilla townie

.

role abilities:

~ you have no special abilities.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town non-consecutive night neapolitan

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town non-consecutive night neapolitan

.

role abilities:

~ during the night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is a

vanilla townie

. you cannot use this ability two nights in a row.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town night 2 rolecop

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town night 2 rolecop

.

role abilities:

~ once in the game, on night 2 only, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn that player's role (but not their alignment).

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town one-shot detective

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town one-shot detective

.

role abilities:

~ once in the game, during the night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will discern whether that player has performed a killing action on another player this game. you will receive a "negative result" on those that have not done so, or a "positive result" on those that have done so. you will receive "no result" if your action is blocked. this ability resolves after killing actions submitted for the same night.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town informed gunsmith

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

town informed gunsmith

.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player has a gun.
~ roles that have a gun are: all mafia (except traitors and doctors), cops, vigilantes, gunsmiths, rolecops, vanilla cops, pt cops, vengefuls, detectives, neapolitans, backups of roles with guns and joats that have any of these listed powers.
~ you know that there are 4 players in the game, including yourself, that would show as "having a gun" to a gunsmith.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

mafia informed doctor

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

mafia informed doctor

.

factional abilities:

~ you are a member of the mafia, along with

playername

and

playername

, who are both

mafia doctors

.
~ once every night, a living member of the mafia may submit a factional kill action.
~ you may talk with your living teammates in the mafia private topic, located here. you may talk there at any time as long as you are alive.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, that player will be protected from one kill that night. you

cannot

perform this action and the factional kill in the same night.
~ you know that there is an informed town player who knows that there are 4 players in the game that would show as "having a gun" to a gunsmith.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to the mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occurring) and at least one mafia player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name or by posting in the mafia pt.

mafia doctor

welcome,

playername

, to mini normal XXXX: placeholder! you are a

mafia doctor

.

factional abilities:

~ you are a member of the mafia, along with

playername

, who is a

mafia informed doctor

, and

playername

, who is a

mafia doctor

.
~ once every night, a living member of the mafia may submit a factional kill action.
~ you may talk with your living teammates in the mafia private topic, located here. you may talk there at any time as long as you are alive.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, that player will be protected from one kill that night. you

cannot

perform this action and the factional kill in the same night.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to the mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occurring) and at least one mafia player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name or by posting in the mafia pt.

i just realized there's an error in the informed doctor's role pm. their information shouldn't include the "including themself" part because it lets scum know that the informed role is one of the 4 gun bearers. while i don't think it's likely to hugely affect the game, i removed it anyway.

[Datisi]

the game is over, this can be released.