Open 808: The Council Has Spoken

[Raya36]

VOTE: enchant

HEAL: raya, nono, battle mage

I can heal myself right?

[Raya36]

I get nightkilled, then you get eliminated

[Raya36]

If I can rvs vote I can rvs heal

[Raya36]

The real question is why aren't you healing already?

[Raya36]

why are people voting to heal, surely they cant have any idea of who town is yet?

i just picked what i thought would make a good council. I'm secretly a bit of a T-Bone fan, and I feel like between us we can get a good read on Artemiana.

also I think we have to vote the council before we elim someone, so it probably is slightly a case of getting it done earlier? Otherwise scum/idiot town can hammer a wagon and we get no council.

I just randomly chose out of the people I'm familiar with

[Raya36]

i guess seems a bit hasty dont want to yet

...too hasty to randomly vote for town players, but not too hasty to randomly vote for scum players?

especially when an actual vote could result in ending the day with no council.

VOTE: mozamis

And it's much easier for 5 votes on 1 person vs 5 votes on the same group of 3

[Raya36]

HEAL: Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana

VOTE: yessiree

HEAL: Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana

Three possibilities here:

1- Both a re Scum
2- Both are Town
3- One of them is Scum & 1 is Town

TAKE NOTE OF MY WISDOM. I'm the next guru (no offense intended @Yessiree)

Honestly impressed by this in depth analysis. Good job

[Raya36]

VOTE: T-BONE

Meat is murder

I think -if Scum- he could have easily asked his p (or the mod) in the Scum PT.

Or asked in thread just as easily for the exact reason you're giving town points

[Raya36]

@ Battle Mage - RVS is traditonal. Seems unlikely we are going to have a quick Elim.
Why rush vote a council when we dont have to? I want the council to be solid town.
Often 3 peple do look really town, so we have a fair chance of doing that. Why do you want to rush a council vote?

I don't think it's a complete rush, but we do need to sequence properly - council needs to be selected before we properly run up any elim wagons, to avoid the risk we end up with no council. So it's not quite like a game with a hurt/heal phase and then an elim phase, but they can't run in parallel either.
Having a town council is considerably better than having scum within the council. But even having scum within the council can be informative. What I really want to avoid strategically, is having no council at all. We're a long way off that currently.

Also to add to this, reactions to be healed for council can be read, just as we would read the reactions to a regular vote

[Raya36]

Ok, i take it seriusly now.


As we know, Council get ability to protect and track.

It will become worthless if even one mafia slip.

For obvious reason. We have 9 people and only 2 mafia. So we have pretty decent chances to create "All Town Council" right now. So while you can be suspicious, it's almost impossible to have evidence. So it's better to create council than don't create, even if you disagree with people in it.

How to choose? Well, i suggested myself and BM+T-Bone for reason. I know i'm town, and BM with T-Bone is expireinced players, who can point track and protect at right target. Though, everyone could say that.


If mafia killed, it makes tracks even more powerfull. If somehow one of mafia die,

don't eluminate

before council become impossible (Day 4), because tracks will produce confirmed townies.

We should definitely not pick our council based on who's the most experienced.

[Raya36]

that's great and all, but

you can't possibly

knpw whether he is town or scum yet. Best to unvote.

Think again.

that's a fair point. looks like a scumslip - if Mozamis was town, they would think I could potentially be scum.

VOTE: mozamis

All aboard!

hmmm

[Raya36]

So listen my suggestion.


I'm not really happy with Battle Mage choose. I feel like he could just grab someone from scumteam. So my suggestion.


We choose one person via majority. After that, this person choose someone. And then, this choosen person will choose third one. And this will be our Council. While it's possible for mafia being in, we gain maximum info from this. Of course it somewhat strange on paper and dunno if necessary, but fun as hell so let's do. No, you can't vote for yourself.


I vote mozamis for Council. He expireinced player as well (2011), but somehow not in list of any councils. So i suggesting him.

This is a pretty good idea in theory but I'm worried when it comes down to it I'll not want to choose someone I townread because I suspect they'll choose someone I scumread and don't want on the council. This happened in a game with a mechanic like that a while back

[Raya36]

That was rvs though. I don't seriously want my healed group. So far I do TR BM.

I'd probably be ok with doing it that way just today for info but that method went so wrong and was very annoying in that game

[Raya36]

What happened exactly?

I can't remember the exact mechanics but it involved a chain. I'd start the chain for example, then vote someone I think is town to pass the chain to, then they'd continue, and the last person who didn't get the chain gets eliminated. Near the end of the chain it would get rough with wanting to vote your townread but knowing that they'll vote your scumread next.

For example this game if I wanna vote you to be in the council because I think you're town, but I know you're going to next choose my top scumread, I'm no longer going to want to put you in the council and compromise to a lower townread of mine instead. So fine for the first day for info, but I don't think a good idea later on.

[Raya36]

I would assume no council so we'd have to be mindful of that but good idea to ask.

@mod What happens if we eliminate a member of the chosen council?

[Raya36]

I would assume no council so we'd have to be mindful of that but good idea to ask.

@mod What happens if we eliminate a member of the chosen council?

• Every day, players use HEAL: tags to propose a
  Council
  of 3 people. Proposals can be changed freely, but a decision is locked in when the majority of players propose the same combination of 3 people. Should there be no council decided before an elimination is hammered, there will be no council.
  
• Council members are made elimination-proof
  for the day and put into a PT the following night. During the night, they vote in their PT to
  track
  one person and
  protect
  one person. These function as tracker and doctor actions performed by the group.

Oops, thank you!

[Raya36]

Oh? Thanks.

Alright, then i suggest this one. We could talk for a bit... And then use my plan/dunno what new plan you get/probably agree on something. Then we will have suspicious persons to keep away from council and killed at day.

Ok, I'm fine with your plan D1. Let's not rush it though. Also we could all heal 1 person as our vote for who starts the council so it's easier to see who is voting for who

[Raya36]

I'd be fine with HEAL: BM as of now.

Fake mason claims are just jokes

[Raya36]

HEAL: BM

I also wouldn't mind

HEAL: Mozamis
And maybe HEAL: Raya

why wouldn't you heal yourself

These are votes for enchant's plan. You can't vote yourself for the plan

[Raya36]

if Mozamis was town, they would think I could potentially be scum.

VOTE: mozamis

You've got this wrong. I was saying that you couldnt possibly know whether T-Bone was town at that point. I wasn't talking about you.

You're misunderstanding what the slip is

[Raya36]

What do you think of Enchant's idea?

[Raya36]

Now that I really think about it we don't really get more info from their plan either. We'll get good info on the people in the council but we won't get to analyze everyone's council votes, only the council leader they vote for.

I say we just play normally

[Raya36]

HEAL: Raya, Battle Mage, Enchant

I think this is good. I TR BM and I don't think that plan benefits scum!Enchant

[Raya36]

Maybe but scum want to make sure they get in the council and that plan gives them much less control. It's easier for them to get in when they can influence a consensus vote rather than the choice of a couple individuals

[Raya36]

So, how we deal with dilemma when everyone disagree with not being on Council and suggesting only with self? We could fight for eternity. We have deadline though, and we also need yell at each other for elumination which cost time as well.

Oh well, this is political game now. So.

I can accept Council of BM+T-Bone+Artemiana. Though, this was pretty easy and fast formed for me. Why is that? Do you think Artemiana is townie, or you just want to talk with her? If you want to talk, what stopping ya from talking here?

Well we have plenty of time still. Why not just ignore the council for the time being, focus on normal scumhunting, and that should help us develop reads to make a better decision with the council

[Raya36]

Why are T-Bone and Artemiana being townread?

[Raya36]

Even if we do decide a council from this plan we should wait to officially hammer it. That way we have a council ready so we're not at risk of not making one in time but we also have a chance to change it later when our reads are a little stronger

[Raya36]

A little suspicious of this council group this is being voted for by exactly its 3 members: Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana

[Raya36]

Why are you town reading each other

[Raya36]

Artemiana is part gut read part something I cannot explain. BM is convenience for me. He hasn't done anything scummy (nor have most players at this point). I'm pretty strong on Artemiana, I could take or leave most of the playerlist as my 3rd councilmember.

Who wouldn't you take from the playerlist then?

[Raya36]

A little suspicious of this council group this is being voted for by exactly its 3 members: Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana

Is that suspicious? per the votecount, there is only one player voting for a council which doesn't include themselves. And yet clearly there is a need for consensus to actually select a council. So I suppose that clustering is exactly what I'd expect to happen in this setup.

Maybe suspicious isn't quite the right word but it seems weird that this early in the game there is already a group of 3 voting each other.

[Raya36]

Why are you town reading each other

I covered Artemiana above. I'm pretty neutral on T-Bone. I think all T-Bone's takes so far have been about right, but not sure that's AI.

It doesn't feel to me T-Bone has done anything significant that's worthy of a council vote. I don't see the Artemiana explanation?

[Raya36]

If you don't want BM to be in Council then just don't vote him lol.

Is this meant for me? I still want BM in the council

[Raya36]

A little suspicious of this council group this is being voted for by exactly its 3 members: Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana

Is that suspicious? per the votecount, there is only one player voting for a council which doesn't include themselves. And yet clearly there is a need for consensus to actually select a council. So I suppose that clustering is exactly what I'd expect to happen in this setup.

Maybe suspicious isn't quite the right word but it seems weird that this early in the game there is already a group of 3 voting each other.

eh i don't think it's weird given it's 3 people all voting for the option which appears to give them the best chance of being in the council (and it's still pretty early!). I think it's more weird that Almost50 is not voting a council including themselves, and a bunch of players aren't voting at all.

Maybe I'm thinking of it too much like a townblock. I do agree that A50's council vote is odd.

[Raya36]

Why are you town reading each other

I covered Artemiana above. I'm pretty neutral on T-Bone. I think all T-Bone's takes so far have been about right, but not sure that's AI.

It doesn't feel to me T-Bone has done anything significant that's worthy of a council vote. I don't see the Artemiana explanation?

Ah yeah it wasn't really an explanation - I just said I'm townreading them. It's essentially gut and stuff I can't comment on yet.

What are your thoughts on Artemiana's take on the potential scumslip you pointed out earlier?

[Raya36]

My hero-solve is Almost50-Yessirree. Some of their cutesy interactions so far have been a bit odd (although perhaps they know each other personally?), and independently they've both left something to be desired.

Do an ISO of Yessiree and let me know what you think?

There's 0 content that isn't mechanics

[Raya36]

Why are you town reading each other

I covered Artemiana above. I'm pretty neutral on T-Bone. I think all T-Bone's takes so far have been about right, but not sure that's AI.

It doesn't feel to me T-Bone has done anything significant that's worthy of a council vote. I don't see the Artemiana explanation?

Ah yeah it wasn't really an explanation - I just said I'm townreading them. It's essentially gut and stuff I can't comment on yet.

What are your thoughts on Artemiana's take on the potential scumslip you pointed out earlier?

[Raya36]

You're that confident what mozamis said wasn't a slip that you're willing to put them in the council?

[Raya36]

I'd be happier with HEAL: Raya, BM, Artemiana now

[Raya36]

Council Voting 1.03

Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana (3):

Battle Mage, Artemiana, T-Bone

Raya36, Battle Mage, Enchant (1):

Raya36

Enchant, Battle Mage, T-Bone (1):

Enchant

Mozamis, T-Bone, Yessiree (1):

Almost50

Not Voting (3):

yessiree, Nono, mozamis

When 5 players vote for the same council of three, they will be the day's council.
The only votes for the council I will accept is if all three members are in the same post. I don't mind you using heal tags otherwise, but I'm not going to piece together your heal tags to make a team.

does anyone tr t-bone? cause I don't.

I also do not and would prefer a council without him

[Raya36]

Artemiana is part gut read part something I cannot explain. BM is convenience for me. He hasn't done anything scummy (nor have most players at this point). I'm pretty strong on Artemiana, I could take or leave most of the playerlist as my 3rd councilmember.

Who wouldn't you take from the playerlist then?

mozamis!

Anyone else though?

[Raya36]

Anyway, good call for voting BM for council he is so likely town.

Why does this read so unnaturally to me?

[Raya36]

Can we keep yesiree and mozamis off of all councils, please?

Fine by me. All 3 of you should be kept off this council at least

[Raya36]

Also others can change vote/add more like T-Bone/Artemiana did.

OK then. My choices are unpopular it seems, but I'll add them anyway:

HEAL: Moz, T-Bone, Yessiree

Well that would be exactly everyone I said no to

[Raya36]

You're clipping both my wings and asking me to fly here. Aside from them two, I only have you as a

confident

TR. And -even worse- I am not allowed to heal myself, so I can't even use the global TR on BM option to complete my trio.

Why don't you think you can vote yourself?

[Raya36]

For a 10 page game, I think I've done well to lay something out that makes sense. I need someone to check me and make sure I'm not falling into confirmation bias. Raya??

Coming back to this now that I'm not phoneposting.

Spoiler: my take

what the HECKA, it ate my paragraph

oh well, TLDR - weird interaction between tbone-mozzy that ends in mutual SR but no real intention to get each other SR'ed by others

Are you his partner? Because I have both so far 'asked people not to put him into a council' and have been very clearly discussing with Raya this scumread.

You definitely made it clear you don't want him on the council but there wasn't really a discussion with me about it. You expressed a scumread and explained why but besides saying you don't want him on the council to me we didn't discuss anything.

Page 10 is just super weird as a progression. BM talks about scumreading yesiree on page 9, and now with the cover of mozamis on page 10 (who has expressed a real read to his credit) yesiree suddenly chimes in to shade me out of nowhere?

It took yesiree an awfully long time to go from 'i'm not answering enchant cause my name was spelled wrong' in #230, to a chain of mozamis affirming his town reads to shading me in #237.

Contrast these two players, actually. I seem pretty top of mind for mozamis as his professed top scumread. I am yesiree's only scumread (apparently), but he doesn't make that a priority?

The out of nowhere scumread/shade on you was a little odd. Would've been better if they just voted you to begin with and gave some sort of reason. I do think it could have been testing the waters before placing a vote although I'm not sure why scum would feel hesitant to just vote.

I don't think the timing is an issue. It was only 20m between posts which is sometimes what it takes to skim through the thread again and decide a vote. It is a bit concerning that one of Mozamis' posts in between was saying you look the least town.

I'm not really seeing much of a problem with Mozamis besides enough doubt around his slot caused by the potential slip to not want him on the council. I wouldn't go as far as to say yessiree is scum but I do think we should be wary and not have him on the council either.

Spoiler: really weird interaction between tbone and mozamis feat. TBONE

I'm secretly a bit of a T-Bone fan

that's great and all, but you can't possibly knpw whether he is town or scum yet. Best to unvote.

Battle Mage and I are Masons.

I'm generally against plans because it fosters fake cooperation. I'd rather people independently play their best. Yes, it means cooperation is harder, but it also means it is more genuine (and thus less prone to manipulation).

what are your reads so far?

I have 6 posts. You honestly can't find me expressing any reads?

Vote: mozamis

TLDR, weird interaction in what appears to be distancing that ends in mutual SR but no real intent to get each other SR'ed by the rest of town
Caught scum.

OH lol he votes me a couple of posts later. Yeah, lock scum I think.

Spoiler: Cont. feat. mozzy

I'm generally against plans because it fosters fake cooperation. I'd rather people independently play their best. Yes, it means cooperation is harder, but it also means it is more genuine (and thus less prone to manipulation).

what are your reads so far?

So far Enchant, Almost, BM, Yes town.
Arte prob town.
Tbone worries me a bit.

So scum are in:
Nono, TBone
lol i have town read everyone else
game solved then!

VOTE: T BONE

What even IS this post? Can someone explain this? Is this not the epitome of 'posting dumbshit for the sake of posting dumbshit'??

You've discovered that mozamis didn't read any of this game before expressing a scumread on me, and then me pointing it out. Congratulations? Post #189 is really the biggest slam dunk of the game so far in terms of the progression of this game. (although #251 is a strong contender)

Agree that this post didn't make much sense (Ignore the messed up spoilers)

So basically I don't agree that mozamis and yessiree are partners or even that moz is necessarily scummy. But I could definitely see yessiree being scum.

[Raya36]

Also others can change vote/add more like T-Bone/Artemiana did.

OK then. My choices are unpopular it seems, but I'll add them anyway:

HEAL: Moz, T-Bone, Yessiree

Well that would be exactly everyone I said no to

Wolf



Monkey

Do you see any similarities? Do they even rhyme??

We're both facing the same direction?

[Raya36]

Why don't you think you can vote yourself?

Isn't the plan to promote 3 other than oneself?

Nope. The plan is to vote 1 person or multiple individuals separately, not including yourself. What you're doing is just proposing a team, so why would you propose a team that you're not even on?

[Raya36]

I though about Council for a bit and have feeling, it's not so usefull overall.

I don't want to give mafia tips, so i will tell this when this become issue.

This looks really town. Scum would be so paranoid about people saying "why are you not telling us now/withholding etc"
Enchant in town pile.

I disagree with this

[Raya36]

Enchant, can you talk a little bit more about your BM read? I'm mainly confused about your take on him wanting Artemiana in the council. Do you disagree with his reasons to townread her or do you think he's trying to pocket her or is it something else?

[Raya36]

HEAL: BM, Artemiana, Raya

That's what I'm already voting for so I'm more than happy with this group

[Raya36]

So, you choose Raya?

Fine then.

This tonally reads as you're unhappy with her choice?

[Raya36]

Enchant, can you talk a little bit more about your BM read? I'm mainly confused about your take on him wanting Artemiana in the council. Do you disagree with his reasons to townread her or do you think he's trying to pocket her or is it something else?

I find it somewhat strange how he exactly want her in council, even before she even posted anything. While that's probably normal, after that there's talk they are first time playing together, i find it odd. Like... Why. I simple can't understand reason.

Ok, I think I understand where you're coming from now. While it may be odd that BM said they could read Artemiana who he doesn't know, do you think it's scum indicative or just odd?

[Raya36]

I'm starting to think 1 scum could be in T-Bone or Enchant

[Raya36]

You know I suck at D1 reads but fine:
1 scum in T-Bone or Enchant

[Raya36]

You know I suck at D1 reads but fine:
1 scum in T-Bone or Enchant

Where this come from?

I don't make fake reads, i just bad at reads at all.

Can you give me a clear list of who you townread?

[Raya36]

with someone who is confirmed town to me.

Hold on, who confirmed? BM?

He is confirmed town to himself

[Raya36]

That's yourself..

[Raya36]

You said you want yessiree night killed and you said they were fluffy. Why do you townread them?

[Raya36]

And for me you were talking about who my potential partner could be more than saying I look town?

VOTE: Enchant

[Raya36]

Oops just realized I was already voting enchant. Someone join me on this

[Raya36]

You said you want yessiree night killed and you said they were fluffy. Why do you townread them?

Yes, didn't change mind.

I'm confused, isn't yessiree one of your townreads? But you also want them nightkilled?

[Raya36]

That's yourself..

You asked for his townreads, people put themselves on town lists all the time, that's hardly a fair criticism.

Maybe not but I don't think I've ever asked for someone's townreads and they only give back 3, 1 being themself? It's not like it was a readslist.

[Raya36]

Also, annoying doesh't mean mafia. I have mine reasons to townread yusasses, you call it Gut.

You offcourse can claim i fake reads/doesh't try enough/what the fuck way you think Enchant, and i can't disapprove it. Because i'm kinda bad at scumreading, but can make effective ways for victory, so i started this plan to help town in way i can.

If you are being honest and you're town then I appreciate the efforts with the plan and focusing on your stronger areas. My concern is that you had criticism for every player. It could be that you're paranoid town but correct me if I'm wrong, you also said you tend to assume someone is town until you find reason otherwise. If you're scum this could be an attempt at keeping options open with some distancing.

[Raya36]

So you townread Yessiree for their style of posting but you think their posts are fluffy so it's not a strong townread

You did deliver. I scumread what you gave us. For what it's worth I think the frustration and confident push back is a bit towny

[Raya36]

I was just confused because it seemed you were contradicting yourself is all

[Raya36]

HEAL: BM, Raya, Enchant

I'm not impartial to this council right about now

That's not the decided group

[Raya36]

So, you choose Raya?

Fine then.

This tonally reads as you're unhappy with her choice?

This tonally reads as agreeing with the choice in a British gentlemanly accent

I always read word or two sentences with a period at the end as very angry and passive aggressive

[Raya36]

I'm starting to think 1 scum could be in T-Bone or Enchant

I am way ahead of you. I know for a fact there are 2 Scums in the game.

Sometimes I am simply impressed by your genius

[Raya36]

Anyone disagree?

not happy about it, but raya prob town
BM if you could try and track one of Arte,Raya, Nono, that would be someting. Maybe doc enchant or yourself?

REALLY bad post. NOT SCUMMY, but BAD all the same.

P.S. Please don't try to influence the SCUM choices of the kill/killer by giving them pools of targets to avoid. THANK YOU.

Yep, 100% agree. Nobody should be discussing anything to do with who the council picks except the council in their PT.

[Raya36]

I simple sceptical about it (especially 1d), because it's like:

1. "NAME" SAID SOMETHING TOWNIE/SCUMMY/SILENT/INSERT REASON
2. MAFIA/TOWNIE COULD SAY IT TOO
3. Repeat for end of the day.

While i have years of experience in mafia, it comes from fast-paced games, where main tool is not scumreading, but information gained from PRs.

I can give good plan in around mins, but i can only catch openly blatant mafia, with having nothing, so i prefer you to do that.

Just in case. I don't say i sit and wait before you win for me. I help with my best side, and try not disrupt something by mine incompetence. Unless you start do something real dumb, of course.

This is understandable, it's hard adjusting from maybe a TOS style game to this. You're definitely not incompetent though! Keep giving us reads, if you're town I'm sure you will be able to help us in that way too

[Raya36]

Guys

We have three days to choose a council and vote someone off

Just saying

Yep, if we're following through with Enchant's plan someone needs to hammer that then we can get right into scumhunting

[Raya36]

I personally don't agree with switching out who's in the council. I think if we made a plan we should stick with it and I don't agree that BM and Artemiana are both scum

[Raya36]

Yep, 100% agree. Nobody should be discussing anything to do with who the council picks except the council in their PT.

Just giving them advice, they ain't gods, and arte is likely scum, so I want them to be careful. They are free to completely ignore my advice, which doubtless they will lol

By giving advice you're influencing their choice and also mafia's choice which increases the chance that mafia can avoid who the council picks.

[Raya36]

I don't like it but we need to make a decision so we can start thinking about the elimination

HEAL: Raya, BM, TBone

[Raya36]

I don't want enchant as much anymore UNVOTE:

[Raya36]

I have no problems with Art.

I guess I could join the Nono wagon but my only problem with them is inactivity which is something that could change for D2.

That leaves Almost50, yessiree, moz, maybe enchant but I'm less convinced.

[Raya36]

VOTE: Yessiree

[Raya36]

I'm ok with yessiree. My second choice is almost50. I'll go there for now

VOTE: Almost50

[Raya36]

So, where is the scum motivation for swapping Arte with TBone?

Full town council and TBone is scum is something. Maybe Arte is on the right track and they want to replace her with someone that might be farther off.

[Raya36]

So, where is the scum motivation for swapping Arte with TBone?

Full town council and TBone is scum is something. Maybe Arte is on the right track and they want to replace her with someone that might be farther off.

Actually, this really bothers me now that I think about it more.

I wasn't the last minute addition to The Council. RAYA was the last minute addition. For most of the day the council was myself, BM, and Arte. Then I was removed in favor of Raya. Raya was just added on Sunday, when for the first week it was the aforementioned trio of myself, BM, and Arte.

This is an odd conclusion for Raya to draw, because despite the last minute votes to add me back on the council, I was one of the leading vote getters for most of the day.

So why does Raya even voice this nonsense?

Who was the player to push to get Raya on this council?

This is misleading. I was part of the council decided by Enchant's plan. It went BM, Art, me. We were supposed to stick to that plan. Then A50 pushed for you instead of Art which gained traction. At that point we were stalling the council which was really limiting the time for deciding the elimination. I was not the last minute addition.

[Raya36]

So, where is the scum motivation for swapping Arte with TBone?

Full town council and TBone is scum is something. Maybe Arte is on the right track and they want to replace her with someone that might be farther off.

Actually, this really bothers me now that I think about it more.

I wasn't the last minute addition to The Council. RAYA was the last minute addition. For most of the day the council was myself, BM, and Arte. Then I was removed in favor of Raya. Raya was just added on Sunday, when for the first week it was the aforementioned trio of myself, BM, and Arte.

This is an odd conclusion for Raya to draw, because despite the last minute votes to add me back on the council, I was one of the leading vote getters for most of the day.

So why does Raya even voice this nonsense?

Who was the player to push to get Raya on this council?

This is misleading. I was part of the council decided by Enchant's plan. It went BM, Art, me. We were supposed to stick to that plan. Then A50 pushed for you instead of Art which gained traction. At that point we were stalling the council which was really limiting the time for deciding the elimination. I was not the last minute addition.

Enchant's plan was not that significant imo.

It was still what was being followed and I was chosen based on that plan. So I wasn't a last minute addition.

[Raya36]

Although, that may be bias on me. Every time the plan discussion came up I knew it was nonsense and paid zero attention to it. I guess I can see why someone else would feel it was significant. I guess it's important to decide who was really engaging with this plan vs people who said just enough so they wouldn't be bogged down by it. I wonder which camp you fall in, Raya? Honest opinion before I backread and find the answer?

Probably a mix of both. I was skeptical of the plan because I was worried the reads of the people you want on council would influence your council vote more than it would normally. (Referenced the chain setup). But I was fine with it for D1. I won't want this plan again as the pool narrows.

Being fully honest if the majority was voting a top scumread of mine I'd probably have fought the plan more. But it ended up choosing my exact council vote at the time so I was happy with it.

[Raya36]

I disagree with that assessment, but I can see why you would think that (or at least say you would think that).

But let me ask again directly. How central was this plan to your Day 1?

When majority was going along with it it became quite central. I had already expressed I was fine with it for at least D1

[Raya36]

PUNCH

VOTE: Almost50

Why did you hammer this?

[Raya36]

PUNCH

VOTE: Almost50

Why did you hammer this?

@Enchant

[Raya36]

Because someone already stated intent. Then you're supposed to wait to give the person getting eliminated a chance to speak. And for the rest of the player list time to speak. If A50 is town maybe we would've changed our mind. Quick hammering is scummy

[Raya36]

I'd be ok with any of these councils

HEAL: BM, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, BM, TBone
HEAL: Raya, BM, Enchant

[Raya36]

I'd be happy with that too T-Bone or removing any one of us for Enchant

[Raya36]

It's a high risk, high reward play to get partner T-bone to get a seat into the council over townie rookie goddess because come tonight, scum will now have insight to what the council is planning on doing-which makes anything they do invalid

Let's not forget that this had happened yesterday.

I want you to really think about the position T-Bone was in last night

[Raya36]

It's a high risk, high reward play to get partner T-bone to get a seat into the council over townie rookie goddess because come tonight, scum will now have insight to what the council is planning on doing-which makes anything they do invalid

Let's not forget that this had happened yesterday.

I want you to really think about the position T-Bone was in last night

I think, at the very least, the ideal council for today would be one of you/BM, me, one of yessus/enchant.

I no longer want it to be you and I don't want it to be Yessiree

[Raya36]

You must have caught my slip, the paranoia over my slot makes no sense otherwise

over half the players hadn't checked in, in about a day and you hammered. Okay.

really scummy undertone here, TBonito, this sounds like you're secretly glad he actually hammered so you wouldn't have to do the deed yourself

like, actually the fuck is wrong with yall, the fact that you'd rather kill A50 over nono is mind boggling to me

hey A50, guess what, you should've just hardlurked, because who knows, maybe, maybe you'll make a miraculous comeback and solve the game god knows when, so let's kill someone else who's way more experienced and way more easy to sort later on

that's a big YIKERS

To try to save your buddy. If scum is eliminated D1 the game becomes very townsided
Do you really think that yessus!scum posts these post hammer?

Why tie himself to the dead scumbuddy?

[Raya36]

You must have caught my slip, the paranoia over my slot makes no sense otherwise

over half the players hadn't checked in, in about a day and you hammered. Okay.

really scummy undertone here, TBonito, this sounds like you're secretly glad he actually hammered so you wouldn't have to do the deed yourself

like, actually the fuck is wrong with yall, the fact that you'd rather kill A50 over nono is mind boggling to me

hey A50, guess what, you should've just hardlurked, because who knows, maybe, maybe you'll make a miraculous comeback and solve the game god knows when, so let's kill someone else who's way more experienced and way more easy to sort later on

that's a big YIKERS

Do you really think that yessus!scum posts these post hammer?

Why tie himself to the dead scumbuddy?

To try to save your buddy. If scum is eliminated D1 the game becomes very townsided

Whoops realized I messed this up. Fixed it

[Raya36]

You must have caught my slip, the paranoia over my slot makes no sense otherwise

over half the players hadn't checked in, in about a day and you hammered. Okay.

really scummy undertone here, TBonito, this sounds like you're secretly glad he actually hammered so you wouldn't have to do the deed yourself

like, actually the fuck is wrong with yall, the fact that you'd rather kill A50 over nono is mind boggling to me

hey A50, guess what, you should've just hardlurked, because who knows, maybe, maybe you'll make a miraculous comeback and solve the game god knows when, so let's kill someone else who's way more experienced and way more easy to sort later on

that's a big YIKERS

To try to save your buddy. If scum is eliminated D1 the game becomes very townsided
Do you really think that yessus!scum posts these post hammer?

Why tie himself to the dead scumbuddy?

Took a while to find your answer, but that happened post hammer, how does he save his buddy post hammer

Yeah, idk why I wrote it there
Well the plan was definitely not to tie themselves to him but I'm sure scum are aware of how townsided the game becomes if scum is eliminated D1 and they would be willing to put themselves out there a bit more to avoid one getting killed.

[Raya36]

welp, looks pretty simple to me

HEAL: Artemiana, Battle Mage, Enchant

VOTE: mozamis

The rebel in me wants to say "yeah, screw the council, lets change it up", but in reality: if it ain't broke, dont fix it? No Nk from scum so maybe council did something right?
Still bit worried by Arte, but I was wrong about Almost so maybe wrong about Arte. In truth, although I cant talk about it, all my reads seem to be ARSE recently.

HEAL: BATTLE MAGE, ARTEMANIA, T-BONE[/code]

Scum reads: why even bother...

That's not the original council

[Raya36]

As expected, mafia just skipped.

Well. We can get around 3 free elims, before setup turn in vanilla. So, let's choose Council and kill someone.

Yeah I think that's likely, but not guaranteed. Although I think there was some marginal sorting value in not spelling it out.

For that to actually happen, 4 players will have to throw the game first, and the 5th player insane enough to hammer both

throw the game is an interesting choice of phrase.

I'd be ok with any of these councils

HEAL: BM, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, BM, TBone
HEAL: Raya, BM, Enchant

why Raya-TBone-Enchant? Nothing about yesterday or last night makes me feel better about TBone alignment-wise.

T-Bone knew who we as a council chose to track and heal. That means scum!T-Bone knew he was not being tracked and was safe to make a kill. Scum!T-Bone also knew who to avoid because he knew who was being healed.

1) T-Bone is scum and had a perfect clear and safe shot but chose not to for the towncred because it doesn't make sense to not take that shot in his position for any other reason. Especially knowing he may not be in the same position again.

2) T-Bone is simply just town.

[Raya36]

What motivation Mafia-Almost50 have to remove Artemiana from council? If she is mafia, it's nonsense.

This is a really good point that I overlooked

[Raya36]

Raya jumped on after I started bringing A50 into the light, and after I placed a compromise vote on yessus.

that's better then. Although I'm not sure what to make of Raya being happy with T-Bone in the council today when T-Bone is definitely within the possible elim pool, and Raya was quite down on T-Bone even last night. I can live with Raya in council again, but prefer freshening it up.

Gave my reasoning above. Let me know if it makes sense or T-Bone no-killing when on council is something you think he would actually do for the towncred

[Raya36]

What do you think about A50 swapping tbone out for me

world of WIFOM. Could be him trying to make scumArte! look town ,Or Almost making townArte! look scum etc etc

The thing with this is unless they were playing the long game of distancing it doesn't make sense because A50 didn't have any reason to believe he was the elimination at the time of the council.

I think it honestly could have just been stalling the council decision since it was clear no scumhunting was happening until the decision was made and we were getting close to deadline

[Raya36]

Now of course, there are risks to that plan. One of you all could decide to no-kill. I felt that was highly unlikely given the information we had (namely 1 scum vs 7 townies, no-killing does nothing for your win condition). But there are risks with every plan.

Clearly this flaw to the plan is more than you thought it was because unless we chose the right target for the heal then someone no killing is exactly what happened. No matter which plan we followed, scum deciding to no-kill gives no good info.

Anyway from my perspective, BM was against a plan that could have potentially either cleared myself or Raya, or confirmed that one of the three of us was scum to the rest of you. To be fair this plan wasn't Raya's preference either, so I won't speak for her whether she would have been okay with this idea.

Just to be clear, if it wasn't for the above flaw I would've been more than happy with this plan, but I saw it less likely to give us info than just targeting someone we thought was scum.

Raya, I don't mean to misrepresent and say this was entirely BM's idea, as you had wanted to use the track and protect in a similar manner, but I have to call out what I see.

All good

[Raya36]

problem with 602 (above) is t-bone's no doc plan is not bad, getting info on whether it's no-kill or not is useful,, it's just not useful for much else
painting it as that piviotal,, don't think it should be, leans scum
this i don't understand,, perhaps explained by perspective difference

If no one got killed, then it basically confirms one of us as scum

This is exactly what my stance was. I do agree that the no doc plan was not bad and in hindsight I do kind of wish we didn't use it. But I didn't see tracking one of us in the council giving the info he claimed it would

[Raya36]

HEAL: Raya, Enchant, Art
I kind of like this now.
Enchant for hammering, Art for being removed by A50

[Raya36]

Unvote

Raya might be right, no reason for BM to no-kill, he's better than that.

I think for that reason all of us on council are likely town. I mean, clearly I would've killed. I'm sure you would have, and same goes for BM.
And I think Enchant and Art are town too. So the PoE is quite small for me at this point

[Raya36]

Raya jumped on after I started bringing A50 into the light, and after I placed a compromise vote on yessus.

that's better then. Although I'm not sure what to make of Raya being happy with T-Bone in the council today when T-Bone is definitely within the possible elim pool, and Raya was quite down on T-Bone even last night. I can live with Raya in council again, but prefer freshening it up.

Gave my reasoning above. Let me know if it makes sense or T-Bone no-killing when on council is something you think he would actually do for the towncred

It takes no sense to perform nightkill, no matter is mafia in council or no, and no matter who is this person (unless... Well. Braincells).

If Mafia in Council, he of course know who is tracked, but if this person dies, it's like screaming "I AM IN COUNCIL" and we can eluminate 4 people, which enough to killoff everyone in this Council. Blatant Suicide. No.

If Mafia outside Council, then again, there's big reason to not nightkill, because chances to quess who was tracked is low, and if you kill someone other, person tracked will be confirmed as Not-Mafia for rest of the game. It's not what mafia want.

I don't think I'm following your point for mafia on council no killing. If mafia was on council they wouldn't kill the person being tracked

[Raya36]

As expected, mafia just skipped.

Well. We can get around 3 free elims, before setup turn in vanilla. So, let's choose Council and kill someone.

Yeah I think that's likely, but not guaranteed. Although I think there was some marginal sorting value in not spelling it out.

For that to actually happen, 4 players will have to throw the game first, and the 5th player insane enough to hammer both

throw the game is an interesting choice of phrase.

I'd be ok with any of these councils

HEAL: BM, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, BM, TBone
HEAL: Raya, BM, Enchant

why Raya-TBone-Enchant? Nothing about yesterday or last night makes me feel better about TBone alignment-wise.

T-Bone knew who we as a council chose to track and heal. That means scum!T-Bone knew he was not being tracked and was safe to make a kill. Scum!T-Bone also knew who to avoid because he knew who was being healed.

1) T-Bone is scum and had a perfect clear and safe shot but chose not to for the towncred because it doesn't make sense to not take that shot in his position for any other reason. Especially knowing he may not be in the same position again.

2) T-Bone is simply just town.

I don't think that's an unreasonable inference to make, but the fact you're making it, is itself vindication of the strategy in scenario 1. I feel a no-kill makes marginally more sense for T-Bone-scum than you-scum, because TBone was desperately needing the towncred after how Day 1 played out, whereas you weren't (and could afford to make the kill).

So I think your logic speaks more to a T-Bone who is aiming to make it to Day 3/4 only, but not a T-Bone who wants to win.

Regardless, I'm hard declining any Council with T-Bone (or anyone off-wagon) in it. I'm open to hearing alternative pitches on the elim today.

Yeah, I can agree there. If T-Bone actually is scum then you're right that he has the highest chance of the 3 of us to no kill

[Raya36]

I have the lowest chance of the entire playerlist lol. No killing is stupid and scum is stupid for doing it.

Nope. This doesn't come from the mindset of town!TBone. I think this was a slipup. I think you meant No killing is stupid for scum on the council and scum is stupid for doing it. You just happen to know scum was on the council and no killed. No killing is not at all stupid for off-council scum.

Consider my vote on TBone. Idk what he's at.

I'm ok with the BM, Enchant, Art council that seems to be getting votes. I'd still prefer the one I'm voting for though

[Raya36]

Tell me why no killing is stupid for scum off council then

[Raya36]

That was a general statement that should actually only be applied to scum on council

[Raya36]

Because prolonging the game when you are solo scum is Very Bad (tm).

Prolonging the game is better than getting tracked as solo scum

I am mostly reacting to you using the word 'slipup' to describe one of my posts. I'm part offended, and part aghast. It's like when Arte was trying to give A50 credit for getting me on the council. I just expect better from the people I play with. Almost50 was so helpless he needed someone's permission to vote differently and I gave it to em.

You do with this information what you will. But if you think I would slip in any game as any alignment you're insane. There is intentionality into everything I post.

Can't say the same for you. Don't hide, vote me. Have some direction in your posts.

No intentions to insult your play no matter alignment. I do think your statement was incorrect at the very least though. No killing is not stupid. Scum is in a very vulnerable position and sometimes playing the long game is the best chance, especially if it can in some way earn you towncred. No killing on the council is a bad choice unless scum is really aiming for the towncred. But no killing off the council is entirely reasonable.

To be clear, I'm not hiding, I'm not voting you because I don't want you at E-1 yet until a council is decided to be safe and I think you're at E-2 now? My post style may seem directionless since I post what I'm thinking at the moment and that will change, but overall I have direction.

[Raya36]

I have the lowest chance of the entire playerlist lol. No killing is stupid and scum is stupid for doing it.

Nope. This doesn't come from the mindset of town!TBone. I think this was a slipup. I think you meant No killing is stupid for scum on the council and scum is stupid for doing it. You just happen to know scum was on the council and no killed. No killing is not at all stupid for off-council scum.

Consider my vote on TBone. Idk what he's at.

I'm ok with the BM, Enchant, Art council that seems to be getting votes. I'd still prefer the one I'm voting for though

Can someone tell me if this makes sense or if I'm just paranoia tunneling

[Raya36]

I don't think it is a good idea to no kill.

My assumption is that scum did kill last night, but they targeted BM

I could see this. And if this is the case then obviously the whole council is town.

Honestly, I think my paranoia got me side tracked. I'm probably wrong about T-Bone being scum. Sorry if I offended you T-Bone.

I guess my PoE under this assumption is {yessiree, nono, mozamis}
Nono was early on the A50 wagon. So I'd be ok with yessiree or mozamis

[Raya36]

Yes you're correct. So then my top suspect would be Moz under the assumption scum targeted BM

[Raya36]

Yes you're correct. So then my top suspect would be Moz under the assumption scum targeted BM

@ Raya I'm town, so something is wrong with your logic somewhere.
Or you are indeed a Scummy Scum McScum Fuck. Last Known Address: TwatFace House, McScumVille - Arizona.

If I'm wrong then Nono would be the second suspect even though they were early on the A50 wagon. Or I can't work under the assumption that scum targeted BM and instead no-killed. In which case my pool is {moz, yessiree, nono, tbone}

[Raya36]

I'm not sure. That's why TBone is last in that PoE. I already went into a decent amount of detail explaining the T-Bone read though

[Raya36]

I looked into the Moz/A50 interactions and idk, they seem almost too close to be scumbuddies. They both were pretty adamant about wanting the other in the council right from the start but that seems too obvious? Would scum not want to distance at all?

[Raya36]

I looked into the Moz/A50 interactions and idk, they seem almost too close to be scumbuddies. They both were pretty adamant about wanting the other in the council right from the start but that seems too obvious? Would scum not want to distance at all?

Well it seems no one else subscribes to that, since people are lol claiming that Almost50 got me on the council and that's why I am scum. tbh I should be confirmed town based on that interaction, because A50 was waiting for someone they knew to be town to give them permission to change some votes.

But alas here we are, with that interaction, the fact that I didn't quick hammer, and the lack of no-kill.... with practically confirmed town T-Bone at L-2. (sorry just a tad bit arrogant I know, but that's where my head is at.)

But to answer your question, I think scum will distance, if they can, but they aren't going to go out of their way to fake that kind of distancing, you know? If you're thinking Moz for example, is he the kind of player to be direct with a scumbuddy? I know from this game he's the type to both throw stuff at a wall to see what sticks, but also back down when challenged (I don't mean that as an insult Moz). Does that lend itself to purposeful interaction with a scum buddy?

The thing is there's enough wifom around scum!you no-killing to earn towncred and to avoid confirming a townie that it's still possible you're scum. And your plan for the actions wasn't that good which also adds to my suspicions.

More wifom I'm thinking about now though. Does scum!T-Bone who is at E-2 push me away from scumreading potential miselim!Moz?

[Raya36]

I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

Look at this flat out lie! Raya can even verify this! Town doesn't lie like this! @Raya please remember BM keeps repeating this lie. Please confirm it in case BM kills you tonight.

Yes, I'll confirm this. In the council thread T-Bone's plan was to use the track and not the protect which in itself isn't a bad plan, and he was also willing to use the protect too if we wanted to. He never not wanted to use the abilities.

[Raya36]

Raya, for what it's worth, I am a straight forward player. WIFOM is a bad tool and I don't set out to create it. Do with that information what you will.

I at least don't want you to be the elim today anymore I don't think. I'd rather go elsewhere and see what we can come up with with the info we get next night.

I can't seem to get rid of the thought that BM and T-Bone is TvS in some order and I'm being manipulated by one of you but that could just be my paranoia speaking.

If Moz doesn't make that much sense, and T-Bone is actually just town. And yessiree has a higher chance of being clear because scum could have killed then maybe nono is the best choice.

[Raya36]

Despite my fervor such as in my latest post, I have to look elsewhere in case I'm wrong. I have one of two things I could pursue. For many of the same POE reasons BM could be scum also apply to you (and to me). Now, part of me thinks scum!Raya would be all over my elimination without a 2nd thought. I guess it's also possible you're pocketing me, but that's a dangerous game and I think you know that...and that's why I'm not pursuing you as the alternate to BM. There's no chance (assuming I don't get mislimmed) I'd allow either of you to LimLo without a tracker clear....and I feel like scum!Raya recognizes that. I don't know if that helps you or not. If you are scum then great job in convincing me otherwise!

You think scum!me is pocketing you right now? When I've been flip flopping on your slot?

[Raya36]

Let's try nono

VOTE: nono
I feel like they could be scum coasting

[Raya36]

I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

Look at this flat out lie! Raya can even verify this! Town doesn't lie like this! @Raya please remember BM keeps repeating this lie. Please confirm it in case BM kills you tonight.

Yes, I'll confirm this. In the council thread T-Bone's plan was to use the track and not the protect which in itself isn't a bad plan, and he was also willing to use the protect too if we wanted to. He never not wanted to use the abilities.

No Raya, he said he wanted to not use the protect, and to use the track on somebody in the council (which in my view is tantamount to not using it, because it means you have zero chance of actually catching scum making a kill). This isn't about truth or lie, it's about interpretation. My interpretation is that the whole mechanic of this game is designed so the council exploits the power roles at it's disposal, and with 1 scum dead on Day 1, there is no reason to adopt a sub-optimal approach.

So you are being unduly generous by saying it "in itself isn't a bad plan", because it IS a bad plan. The only GOOD plan would be one which allows the town to avail itself of the firepower at it's disposal to try and secure victory. The variables are who to target with those abilities, but no council in it's right mind should be tracking someone in the council who will know they are being tracked. Which is what you also concluded last night, so I'm not sure why you're reverting to sitting on the fence here now.

I don't like the way this is being misconstrued as a matter of 'fact' when it isn't - but it is a pretty straightforward matter of judgement. I can understand that from T-Bone, who hasn't given himself much room for manouevre beyond tunnelling me. But can you explain why you didn't correct T-Bone on this? Or alternatively, talk me through how my assessment of events is incorrect?

The part I described isn't a bad plan. The plan is bad when he suggested using the track on someone in the council. But if we used the track on Yessiree as we did for example but didn't protect we'd have more info than we have now. I'm not fencesitting. The plan was absolutely horrible. But the part of the plan I just described was good.

[Raya36]

alright i'll re-read Nono then. While I do, can you talk me through why Nono bussed A50? Because it seems to me like Nono's name is being thrown around without much substance backing it up.

Read T-Bone's post about this. What he said about this makes sense

[Raya36]

I was discussing the possibility in laying out the POE from the council. Gun to my head I think scum!Raya has more incentive to not think twice about my miselim if I'm being honest. Fair play to you if you are and didn't go for it.

my question is, why would town-Raya be moving away from elimming within the pool of players who didn't elim A50? I don't understand Raya's back and forth on you at all - one minute pretty convinced you're scum, the next defending you without much thought.

That is a feature of Raya. Unsure if it is alignment indicative or just player indicative.

Yeahhh I'm working on it but I hate being wrong more than flip flopping

[Raya36]

alright i'll re-read Nono then. While I do, can you talk me through why Nono bussed A50? Because it seems to me like Nono's name is being thrown around without much substance backing it up.

Read T-Bone's post about this. What he said about this makes sense

oh I will, but I'd like to get a position from you?

Well yes but that part is going to sound basically the same.

Spoiler:

mozamis, enchant, almost is really scummy, in my eyes xD

If scum are going to distance this game, where you basically lose if you lose your scumbuddy D1, this is a good way to do it. No backing so no real traction will grow from this.

thinking almost, almost has played with me before,, why am i scummy, almost?

VOTE: almost

Once again this a weak reason to vote someone so traction shouldn't have been expected. It was early on the wagon so it's very possible it was a distancing attempt with plans to unvote (but they never checked back in on time).

to me, i'm cleared,, look at how i was almost's first pick for elim yesterday, it's easy game

HEAL: nono, art, mage would be ideal council, am fine with switching for enchant

Claiming yourself cleared doesn't look good, and this is the first time nono actually put themselves in their council vote, after A50 was eliminated.

If I use my super intellectual gift I'd say one scum in BM/Raya/Enchant and the other is in Nono/Atemiana (but don't quote me on any of that yet. I'll only take responsibility of my reads on the top 3 so far)

Distancing again, not taking responsibility for those 2 bottom scumreads so showing they're weak

Nono?? I never suggested or even hinted I want Nono in the council. It's Moz, T-Bone & Yessiree for me

But then there's this. Maybe I'm wrong on this too...

[Raya36]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

[Raya36]

Can you explain then why you made a response beginning "Yes, I'll confirm this" in post 715, which did nothing to either commit to your own view, presumably only served to keep T-Bone happy, and in fact obfuscated the reality of what happened, which is T-Bone proposed using the abilities in a sub-optimal way, despite pushing hard to get himself on the council - which was the original point I made and find difficult to justify from the perspective of T-Bone-town? Because I feel like your post 715 gives an impression of supporting T-Bone's position and undermining my core argument aforementioned, which doesn't really accord with your view here. I.e. why did you not just say what you actually thought, instead paying lip service to T-Bone's inaccurate claim that I lied about the demerits of his plan? I know I'm prone to hyperbole at times, but only 3 of us can account for what was said last night - clarity is key.

As an aside, if we had used the track as we did, but failed to use the protect, we would not necessarily have more information (and certainly not from T-Bone's vantage point, given his insistence that I'm scum), just different information. We would either know that scum no-killed, which is not really useful information, or we'd know that Yessirree is town but I'd be dead. I'm not sure either of those scenarios put us in a better position than we are now.

Because the way you wrote it was misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention. His plan for the abilities was not optimal but he was still wanting to use the abilities. I didn't say it to keep T-Bone happy and I've already said my views. I said it to clear up the facts in yours and T-Bone's 1on1 for anyone not aware of the context first-hand.

It would give us much more info. If we knew scum no-killed for fact then I wouldn't be doubting the possibility of yessiree being scum, but instead I'm giving yessiree some credit because they have a higher chance of being town due to that lack of info. If you died and it wasn't yessiree then we would now have yessiree out of the already small pool and we while this sucks for you, we wouldn't be having this particular 1v1 and you would be one less person in the pool too.

[Raya36]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

Because we don't know if they did or not. I guess just by this alone T-Bone has the highest chance of being scum. There's just too many things that don't make sense.

If we elim T-Bone today and he's town how would feel about being the elim the next day unless new info tells us otherwise. I feel like there's a very high chance your 1v1 is TvS

[Raya36]

Raya at least looking like they are trying to help town and solve the game.
VOTE: NONONO

Take a look at the quick interactions analysis I did. I don't think nono makes sense anymore

[Raya36]

Can you explain then why you made a response beginning "Yes, I'll confirm this" in post 715, which did nothing to either commit to your own view, presumably only served to keep T-Bone happy, and in fact obfuscated the reality of what happened, which is T-Bone proposed using the abilities in a sub-optimal way, despite pushing hard to get himself on the council - which was the original point I made and find difficult to justify from the perspective of T-Bone-town? Because I feel like your post 715 gives an impression of supporting T-Bone's position and undermining my core argument aforementioned, which doesn't really accord with your view here. I.e. why did you not just say what you actually thought, instead paying lip service to T-Bone's inaccurate claim that I lied about the demerits of his plan? I know I'm prone to hyperbole at times, but only 3 of us can account for what was said last night - clarity is key.

As an aside, if we had used the track as we did, but failed to use the protect, we would not necessarily have more information (and certainly not from T-Bone's vantage point, given his insistence that I'm scum), just different information. We would either know that scum no-killed, which is not really useful information, or we'd know that Yessirree is town but I'd be dead. I'm not sure either of those scenarios put us in a better position than we are now.

Because the way you wrote it was misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention. His plan for the abilities was not optimal but

he was still wanting to use the abilities.

Not quite right though - you've already acknowledged he was only wanting to use 1 ability, and his proposal was to use it in such a way that it couldn't result in a genuine red-check - forgoing the advantage town has. Would it be unfair for me to argue your post here is actually misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention?

But he was still intending to use an ability which is not what you claimed. And yes, that would be unfair.

I didn't say it to keep T-Bone happy and I've already said my views. I said it to clear up the facts in yours and T-Bone's 1on1 for anyone not aware of the context first-hand.

Do you think you cleared up facts? I feel that the fact you had to explain that the position in that post did not reflect your overall sentiments (albeit to me, although few others are around) on T-Bone's plan was very misleading and (perhaps inadvertently) supported the misconception he is pushing about his proposed course of action last night - which is in turn, the basis for his case on me. You've been clear subsequently, but only when I've pushed you and it feels a bit like you're bouncing between people to find the path of least resistance.

I think both of you are being misleading, and even if I was not perfect I did clear it up the best of the 3 of us.

It would give us much more info. If we knew scum no-killed for fact then I wouldn't be doubting the possibility of yessiree being scum, but instead I'm giving yessiree some credit because they have a higher chance of being town due to that lack of info. If you died and it wasn't yessiree then we would now have yessiree out of the already small pool and we while this sucks for you, we wouldn't be having this particular 1v1 and you would be one less person in the pool too.

That isn't more info - it's different info as I previously said. What you're describing above is a challenge that you have some information but you're not sure what it means, and so you'd prefer to have different simpler information, even though it has less bearing on working out who is scum. Don't you think it's potentially useful and valuable to have information which suggests a theoretically lower likelihood of 2/3 of your potential scumpool being scum? Surely that's useful information to guide your decision today. And in the alternative scenario you posit, you'd be making exactly the same decision (i.e. me and yessirree clear, therefore T-Bone is final scum)?

It's different info and overall more. We really don't have much info now without making assumptions. We had the potential of a cleared townie.

In other news, I'm sad that you think a benefit of me dying would be that you don't have to talk to me. This isn't a 1v1 from my perspective.

I never said a benefit of you dying is I don't have to talk to you. I said that if you did die a positive outcome of that is the pool would be smaller.

[Raya36]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

Because we don't know if they did or not. I guess just by this alone T-Bone has the highest chance of being scum. There's just too many things that don't make sense.

If we elim T-Bone today and he's town how would feel about being the elim the next day unless new info tells us otherwise. I feel like there's a very high chance your 1v1 is TvS

I was thinking of suggesting the same, but I'm not sure what to make of you proposing it. In a world where T-Bone and me both flip town, are you willing to go next?

I'll go next if we think it would provide the most info but if you and T-Bone flip town we need to be careful about who we elim next.

[Raya36]

Raya at least looking like they are trying to help town and solve the game.
VOTE: NONONO

Take a look at the quick interactions analysis I did. I don't think nono makes sense anymore

you think NoNo is town, but you're leaving them at -1 here?

Oops, forgot I was voting
UNVOTE:

[Raya36]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

Because we don't know if they did or not. I guess just by this alone T-Bone has the highest chance of being scum. There's just too many things that don't make sense.

If we elim T-Bone today and he's town how would feel about being the elim the next day unless new info tells us otherwise. I feel like there's a very high chance your 1v1 is TvS

I was thinking of suggesting the same, but I'm not sure what to make of you proposing it. In a world where T-Bone and me both flip town, are you willing to go next?

I'll go next if we think it would provide the most info but if you and T-Bone flip town we need to be careful about who we elim next.

heh, yeah I thought you might say something like that. Consider my answer similarly caveated then.

Yeah, fair enough then

[Raya36]

You suggested above he was still wanting to use "abilities" plural. When he was only wanting to use 1, and he was expressly intending to use that 1 in the least valuable way possible. So I disagree - you have not been at all clear on this, and in doing so you've undermined an argument of mine against T-Bone (that he was determined above all else to secure his own place on the council and then did not act in the town's interests when given that opportunity), which interestingly you haven't engaged with....instead briefly running up Nono, to then backtrack under minimal pressure...and still not voting T-Bone despite claiming he is your top suspect.

I disagree. T-Bone was actually clearer than you, in that his position was unambiguously misleading, whereas yours was somewhat misleading, and it took some probing to work out where you stand. I don't want to over-emphasise the importance of this though, as it's probably minimal.

Ok true. The plural of abilities may not have been as correct as I intended. I had no intentions to undermine you or support T-Bone. I intended to neutrally explain what happened. I've been engaging minimally in the 1v1 between you and T-Bone because I don't think taking a side will do anything than create useless noise from me, plus I'm not confident on either side. I backtracked on Nono because I realized I was most likely wrong when I looked more into interactions. It had nothing to do with pressure.

Your position is consistent with your scumpool. But I think on the face of it, me dying and confirming yessirree would have made negligible difference for most, given neither of us are exactly on the chopping block today even without mechanical confirmation. As above, this feels like a slightly moot point, but it's interesting that you are persevering with it whilst relenting quite easily on other things (of more significance).

You can't be voted today but you're still not clear for any reason which makes you a part of the pool. Yessiree isn't clear either and therefore part of the pool. Not using the doc would have a higher chance and minimizing the pool and that's what should have been done.

That's ok. How do you normally cope under pressure as scum?

Pretty good I think. Oddly probably better than as town. I'd say I'm better at avoiding conflict and pressure as scum whereas when I'm town I don't care as much to avoid it. I'll find a couple recent scum games if you wanted to skim.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85864
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=85406

[Raya36]

@ Raya - all I could see from your ISO about NoNo was NoKill spec.
There are many reasons for the NoKill. I've seen games where scum have failed to put in the NightKill by mistake.
So who knows?
We can only go on who looks most town or scum, and in that regard, Nono looks most scummy.

p:edit obviously not going to read wall posts with multiple quotes in.

It's in 731

[Raya36]

3 Q's:

1. Why do you assume BM vs T-Bone is TvS?
2. Given your assumption BM vs T-Bone is TvS, why are you still not voting T-Bone? You were quite ready to jump to Nono earlier. Which leads me to:
3. Why did your analysis of Nono lead you to conclude Nono was town?

1) just to be clear when I say 1v1 I don't mean TvS. A 1v1 can be TvT or SvS too. I'm not assuming you're TvS when I say you're 1v1. I have said a couple time that I think you could be TvS though and that's because of the attitude and trying to discredit each other.

2) I was less confident on any of my reads compared to today and now T-Bone is at E-2 I think and I don't want him at E-1 yet. I'm leaning towards T-Bone today fwiw

3) Because I analyzed the interactions with A50 and I concluded town based on them? I don't think I understand what you're asking here. I shouldn't have jumped on nono being scum before thoroughly looking through interactions if that's what you mean.

[Raya36]

But a few points of information, which perhaps Raya will verify:

1. I did not have a strong preference on who was targetted (I think my original suggestion was Enchant), other than the obvious principle of us using the protect ability, and using the track on somebody who might perform the kill.

2. The ultimate decision was collectively consented, so T-Bone referring to it as unconscionable is disingenuous. I don't recall T-Bone raising significant objection to me being protected, on which nobody really expressed a strong preference.

3. It's already been stated and verified, but T-Bone's inference that he proposed Track: Yessirree, Protect: Nobody is not true, and so what he claims to be "his plan" above was not actually his plan, which makes the comparison a pointless strawman.

Last time I'm doing this.

1) Your first suggestion was to protect Enchant and track yessiree. You did not want to track T-Bone. Your second suggestion for protect was yourself. I didn't see you explicitly say you didn't have a track preference but you were willing to be tracked if we wanted to.

2) I suggested the actions, BM agreed, T-Bone agreed as long as we didn't waste time arguing with him this day, then said he was fine with using it how we suggested but wanted us to understand what his plan could do.

3) His plan was track himself, protect no one.

[Raya36]

3 Q's:

1. Why do you assume BM vs T-Bone is TvS?
2. Given your assumption BM vs T-Bone is TvS, why are you still not voting T-Bone? You were quite ready to jump to Nono earlier. Which leads me to:
3. Why did your analysis of Nono lead you to conclude Nono was town?

1) just to be clear when I say 1v1 I don't mean TvS. A 1v1 can be TvT or SvS too. I'm not assuming you're TvS when I say you're 1v1. I have said a couple time that I think you could be TvS though and that's because of the attitude and trying to discredit each other.

2) I was less confident on any of my reads compared to today and now T-Bone is at E-2 I think and I don't want him at E-1 yet. I'm leaning towards T-Bone today fwiw

3) Because I analyzed the interactions with A50 and I concluded town based on them? I don't think I understand what you're asking here. I shouldn't have jumped on nono being scum before thoroughly looking through interactions if that's what you mean.

1. Yes I understood the distinction, but was interested in what led you to the, presumably strong, TvS read - given we are 2 out of your 3 scumpool.
2. That makes sense.
3. The premise for my question was that I actually thought you put together a reasonably good case for Nono-scum, and so was slightly surprised in retrospect that it led you to pivot 180 and conclude Nono was town. So my question is, why did those interactions initially ping you as scum, but then convince you of nono-town?

1) I mean that alone gives a higher chance of you being TvS.
3) I never put together a case on nono scum. I thought T-Bone's analysis had a good chance of being possible, agreed and voted, did an interaction check of my own. I saw what looked to be distancing, which then turned into way too much to be distancing. So Nono is probably town. I guess what happened is I went into the nono analysis believing them to be scum and then proved myself wrong

[Raya36]

@ Raya - I think I see your point, that scum are unlikely to bus in a2 player scum game. Which is a point I had made. But - as I also said, (and Arte?), Nono may have made that vote for Amost early on,and then not had time to get off.
Again, it's speculation.
Scum arent always that good. NoNo scum may have thought -irrationally in your eyes - that he was going to bus/distance themselves from Almost, however sub-optimal you may think that play is.

The main thing about Nono is their lack of town play.
Interactions with Almost world of WIFOM.

Look at A50 then ctrl+F nono. It doesn't make sense. With the info we have now I think it goes T-Bone -> BM -> yessiree -> nono

[Raya36]

Raya does look more and more town.
Which means I hope I'm right about Nono, otherwise I'm running out suspects.
Could we just hammer Nono before we go round in circles.

Why do you TR T-Bone?

[Raya36]

@ Raya, re: T-Bone: Most scum would have faded into the background by now. He's out in the open, argumentative, confrontational, and looks like he' trying to solve the game. Very few scum are capable of playing like he does.
This is a problem town often have, scum don't do much, town post a lot, get into arguments, piss other town off, contradcit themselves, whilst scum just sit back and blend in.
The overview is really important.

I don't know if that applies to scum!T-Bone to be honest

[Raya36]

So Raya looking more and more town.
Scum must be in Nono, Arte or Yessire.

Arte doesn't make sense

[Raya36]

I think T-Bone is the best choice here. And if we're wrong we reevaluate based on the info from the night.

VOTE: T-Bone
This is E-1

[Raya36]

Give T-Bone some time to respond and give final reads if you intend to hammer

[Raya36]

Explain the interactions between Nono and A50. It seems pretty unlikely those come from distancing partners

[Raya36]

I thought I did. The way Nono voted for A50 looks like that thing you do where you vote your scumbuddy, and then back off when the scumbuddy defends themselves. Read this post again.

The rest of the interactions though. They were at each other for a lot of the game and not in a distancing way

[Raya36]

but I would charge that Nono's posting is too limited for you to be able to make that distinction. There just isn't a lot in Nono's posting. Minimal interactions Day 1, and god awful ones today.

If you were someone who was less active you probably wouldn't go after your scum partner the entire time you are active and vice versa. A50 shouldn't have gone after inactive scum partner nono like that

[Raya36]

I mean, do you anticipate that your partner is gonna ghost you? I don't think I would.

If not Nono though, who are you looking at and why?

There's an in between though. A50 and Nono is too much.

I'm looking at you, if not yessiree, if not BM. Everyone else has a reason to be basically clear or highly townread. We eliminate you, get info overnight, reevaluate everyone's pools.

[Raya36]

So when I look at the Nono and A50 interactions, I see an incomplete narrative. Maybe you're right and this was genuine on Nono's part. But to me, and the post I keep quoting as a result, this looks incomplete. The post I quoted looked to be an indication of something better from Nono. I think Nono fully intended to try and have a full interaction with A50 so that he could look like he's trying to sort A50. I think that because of Nono's infrequent posting, he wasn't able to fully realize this and ended up eliminating A50 because that was his last post of the day phase.

I just don't see it coming from SvS, there's too much pushing from either side and it just doesn't read as scum narrative to me.

[Raya36]

Do you think I'm scum or not? You're flipping me for info??? If I was scum it would end the game, no info needed.

So if you don't think I'm scum, then there's no reason to flip me. This doesn't make sense.

Are you posting like you already know I'm town? What is this?

No. I'm flipping you because I think you have the highest chance of being scum. And if I'm wrong then we get info. I thought that was clear with the "if not"s

[Raya36]

No mental gymnastics outside of natural indecisive townie progression

[Raya36]

The problem with that is now T-Bone knows he's being tracked so if we keep him alive and he's scum then he just no kills and were back to where we started. Or scum choose to no kill to frame T-Bone. I do agree town-confirmed T-Bone would be very powerful.

Town is in a really good position right now with a lot of near confirmed town, a flipped scum, and a very small pool. If we're wrong on T-Bone then we use the info gained and I'm sure we can find the right person next day

[Raya36]

The problem with that is now T-Bone knows he's being tracked so if we keep him alive and he's scum then he just no kills and were back to where we started. Or scum choose to no kill to frame T-Bone. I do agree town-confirmed T-Bone would be very powerful.

Town is in a really good position right now with a lot of near confirmed town, a flipped scum, and a very small pool. If we're wrong on T-Bone then we use the info gained and I'm sure we can find the right person next day

I struggle to imagine that T-Bone scum would be killing tonight regardless, given he chose not to kill last night when he was on the council and knew he wasn't being tracked.

Yeah, you're probably right. So I guess in that sense it wouldn't really matter but it still leaves us with less new info

[Raya36]

Raya, for what it's worth, I am a straight forward player. WIFOM is a bad tool and I don't set out to create it. Do with that information what you will.

I at least don't want you to be the elim today anymore I don't think. I'd rather go elsewhere and see what we can come up with with the info we get next night.

I can't seem to get rid of the thought that BM and T-Bone is TvS in some order and I'm being manipulated by one of you but that could just be my paranoia speaking.

If Moz doesn't make that much sense, and T-Bone is actually just town. And yessiree has a higher chance of being clear because scum could have killed then maybe nono is the best choice.

call me prejudiced against women but I just can't see this coming from a cold, calculating and cunning woman, pitting T-Bone against Battle Mage just so she can look like a paranoid townie trying to navigate through the destruction in its wake - it's notably genuine indecisiveness that stems from a lack of information on either party's alignment, which points to town!rayas for me

I think that's a small leap. Raya had generally tried to stay out of that dispute, and when she had been involved, it was generally to agree with whoever was posting at the time. It was only later when she was brought into focus herself, that she was more actively engaged. So I don't think a hypothetical scum-Raya would have been required to do anything cold, calculating or cunning here - just use the obvious battle in progress as a route to 2 mis-elims. What stood out to me was her request that I volunteer to be elimmed tomorrow if T-Bone flips town - which fits that profile, and the narrative of scum who require mis-elims on the A50 wagon to win.

That's a fair analysis but you turning it around on me only swaps our positions and now what you said about me applies to yourself to some extent

[Raya36]

Raya. In post 855 BM once again suggested that I didn't want to use the track. Can you confirm or deny this as truth? Did I at any point ever suggest not using the track action?

You wanted to use the track but that's not what BM said in 855

more generally the idea of not using the tracker to try and catch scum

[Raya36]

Raya. In post 855 BM once again suggested that I didn't want to use the track. Can you confirm or deny this as truth? Did I at any point ever suggest not using the track action?

You wanted to use the track but that's not what BM said in 855

more generally the idea of not using the tracker to try and catch scum

He's trying to tie the idea that I didn't want to use any actions because I didn't want to use the doctor action. It is in plain language if you don't take the segment fragment.

What he said is not a lie. What he may or may not be hoping is interpreted would be misleading. But I think this point has been elaborated on enough that those outside the council understand what happened now, but I can't fully speak to that.

[Raya36]

Raya you didn't say it with me!

ok
T-Bone, we will have no problems eliminating Battle Mage tomorrow

Spoiler:

unless problems arise

[Raya36]

If T-Bone is Mafia:
So he suddenly realise, he is alone now. And his suggestion is "No Kill and Track me". So he forcing self for no-kill state. For what? If he is tracked and no one died, it doesh't confirm him at all. Could be it just bluff?

This would give T-Bone some towncred even if it doesn't clear him

[Raya36]

It wouldn't though. Anyone can no kill

[Raya36]

So if T-Bone is actually town and nono doesn't really make sense my pool is BM and Yessiree.

[Raya36]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

[Raya36]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

I think this is a pretty good outlook of the gamestate, minus me being in the pool of course.

I'll vote Raya + Arte + ideally me for council. And my pool is probably BM -> moz -> nono, in this order. I'll compromise on nono being on the council if I absolutely have to

I'd vote for me, art, and ideally not you

[Raya36]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

We have a greencheck, but not sure if we're claiming it - will leave it to Artemiana's judgement, given the amount of time wasted on arguing about night actions yesterday.

From the above, doesn't seem like your reads have changed at all in light of T-Bone's flip, which is interesting. Then again, seems you're not that fussy, given your pool is every player except yourself and Arte (and Arte on the basis you "feel pretty good" about them?) I'm not vibing with it after how diligently and carefully you considered reads yesterday, and the amount of oscillation then compared to static reads with 2 flips?

For me...I'll obviously be re-reading.

Not my call but I really think claiming it is a good idea. We're at a point we could really use info like that to maybe fully solve the game

No my reads haven't changed too much except I feel stronger about you being scum. moz and nono are townreads also. They're just there for if the info from the council gave me reason to believe I'm wrong about you and yessiree. My reason for art has not changed which is what I meant by I still feel good about them

I guess the better way to write it would be

Art

Moz, nono

yessiree

BM

[Raya36]

The intention was not to claim, assuming none of us died. I think it's finely balanced - there is value in seeing how players behave at the start of today, with some extra knowledge. But there is a risk of information not being verifiable in subsequent days if Artemiana or I die, if we haven't claimed it today.

Maybe hold off for the first part of today then claim after everyone has checked in or something?

No my reads haven't changed too much except I feel stronger about you being scum.

Why?

Mainly PoE, T-Bone interactions, the NK being in the council as yessiree said. I can go into more detail tomorrow. I have an exam worth 60% tonight and I don't have the time or energy right now.

I'm not sure that came through at all in your previous post - you were very discerning yesterday, and that seemed pretty laissez-faire.

Can you explain why a result from last night would mean you put Nono and Moz back in the pool? There is a reason I ask.

Nono and Moz were always in the position of being my backup pool. Nothing happened overnight that changed that. But if for example we cleared one of BM and yessiree and the other was interaction cleared, or we eliminate them and we're wrong I would then look in Nono and Moz.

[Raya36]

Please do, and in particular I would draw your attention to my responses to yessirree today on the NK speculation. On T-Bone interactions, at the end of the day, he was town, so there's a limit to how great I'm going to look from that. I suppose (and this was yessirree's point), it's a question of whether you can demonstrate my approach to T-Bone was logically flawed or bad faith. The fact T-Bone swore blind I was scum without giving a good reason is not a substitute for a case, and given how yesterday played out I'm even more determined that we hold people to a higher standard of argument today. So detail is very welcome.

So basically my biggest concern was during D2 I really felt that you vs T-Bone was TvS which obviously would imply you're scum. The reason for this is because of the way you two were arguing. You were both constantly trying to discredit each other. Both of you were being misleading of the other and pushing in a way that felt like you each knew the other's alignment and wanted the other gone. (T-Bone convinced you're scum and doing everything to get you eliminated, you seeing T-Bone as a threat and/or T-Bone forcing you into that 1v1.) It is possible that you were both tunneled on each other and I'm willing to consider this if someone can convince me why BM is town here. A few examples of you being misleading are below.
586 You introduce T-Bone's plan as guaranteeing no info which is not entirely true and misleading
641 Misleading in that it sounds like you're saying T-Bone didn't want to use the track at all (rather than saying he didn't want to use it in an optimal way)
706 Last point misleading, he did want to use the abilities

As for the kill, I do believe there is a higher chance someone on the council would target someone else on the council than someone off council would. Especially because the kill either failed the first night because of targeting on council (in which case you're town), or it is at least known that council healed on council the first night and it would be risky to aim there. That said, it is also important to consider that scum off wagon wouldn't want to narrow their off wagon pool if they thought we'd only be searching off-wagon (I don't believe this is true because in this case BM is town (on council) and has enough suspicion on him that it would be safe to assume town wouldn't just hunt on wagon).

Further to the above, we've played together a few times I think? how does my play this game compare to those other games? For my strengths, I'm not a difficult person to meta, so good to get your take on that.

I'm honestly not that great at meta-reading since I pick up more on personality than I do play. But I do read you as a competent player and someone who is good at scum which may be where a lot of my suspicion is coming from.

yeah that's the bit which interested me: if you have a pool of 2, and 1 is cleared, doesn't that just make the other one scum? so why would your first thought be to open up the pool to 2 other players (unless you needed multiple elims)?

I'm not really sure what you specifically envisage by someone becoming "interaction cleared" in this context.

It means the other one is probably scum and that's of course who I would be pushing for but I like to rank my townreads as a sort of backup plan if I'm wrong.

Interaction cleared would be for example nono and moz who I've been "interaction clearing" because of A50. In the context of T-Bone maybe there was someone who was really pushing against the T-Bone elimination who I could townread for that to a lesser extent. Idk, I haven't really had a chance to go back and look over everything yet.

[Raya36]

HEAL: Raya, Art, Moz
I could switch Moz for Nono

[Raya36]

Bold can't be true though can it? If we were TvS, 1 of us would know the other's alignment, and the other wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I can definitely buy the TvS rationale, because I thought the same yesterday. T-Bone didn't show any interest in engaging with me in a broader discussion about things which were AI, and didn't show any interest in really objectively sorting me, or any other players (until the last minute when he pushed a counter-wagon), which I perceived to be scummy. However, my general experience of the interaction you describe - where 2 players push each other very hard and conspicuously - is that they are often TvT. Simply put, where's the benefit to scum-BM of pushing T-Bone as I did? I would more likely have faded into the background, and just NKed him if I really wanted him gone as it's less conspicuous.

Not entirely true, but true in the sense of what I added in brackets. Interactions like this aren't always TvT and scum don't always just leave things for the nk. Especially when scum is alone and highly out numbered at this point. I would argue that could call for being a bit more vocal in a situation where you're scum being heavily scumread by someone who is a strong player and knows how to control the game state and get you eliminated. Also T-Bone's NK would point to you being scum so if you needed to get rid of him somehow, the day would be the best bet where you've at least explained yourself.

This isn't what happened though - I suspected T-Bone and T-Bone OMGUSed me, so he didn't force me into a 1v1. And as above, in general when scum perceive somebody to be a threat, the last thing they do is 1v1 them during the day.

I kind of explained my point on T-Bone being a threat and why scum!you would go after them during the day above I think.

I don't think I was tunnelled on T-Bone, I think I had good reason for thinking he was scum and I was wrong. I explicitly didn't exclude other possibilities, or claim he was "confscum" or anything like that. Always elim the scummiest player is a manta which minimises regrets. I don't want to dwell too much on T-Bone's play yesterday out of courtesy, but I think if he'd engaged with me as I asked on multiple occasions he could have avoided being mis-elimmed. Instead he resorted to AtE and an inadequately explained OMGUS tunnel on me, which wasn't compelling.

Maybe not tunneled but it's possible you were both genuinely convinced the other was town. The idea of tunneling comes from the aggressiveness from both sides and the misreps

These examples all effectively amount to the same thing, so I'll address them with 1 response:

In all cases, although the wording is arguably unclear as I abbreviated, the point was obvious - in posts 706 and 641 my feeling was that T-Bone pushed very hard to get on the council, only to not want to use the abilities

to good effect

(his plan was to not use the protect, and to use the track on somebody within the council, which would preclude us from either blocking a kill or securing a red-check). Moreover, to the extent my wording was sloppy, the substance of the point was in any case correct from my perspective and so I didn't take something not scummy and frame it as scummy - I noted something scummy and didn't choose my words carefully in my haste to explain why it was scummy. I originally responded to this in post 720. On 586, I considered the information gained from T-Bone's plan to be of nil value - as we discussed subsequently, I concede it would have had some value (we could have known whether scum killed or not and we potentially missed out on a green-check by protecting me), although I stand by my broader point that it would have, all else being equal, resulted in lower quality information than tracking someone who could actually have committed the kill. You may argue in retrospect that I was wrong about optimal use of the night actions, but I don't think my view at the time was stupid or completely irrational. And crucially, there isn't a particularly good rationale for scum to mislead about matters of fact - a maximum of 1 of us on the N1 council was scum, and so it would be pointless to lie about what was or wasn't said. And equally as I said in respect of T-Bone, it isn't as simple as assuming scum would deliberately push for sub-optimal nightplay - it depends on the context and what they would achieve from the night actions - hence understanding motive goes a step beyond what someone said, to why they said it.

Maybe we need to just leave this one at agree to disagree for argument's sake but I don't think your points would have been obvious to someone outside the council trying to follow all the wall posts containing info they didn't see first hand. If you're scum, by doing this you could win the favour of the town who are unaware of what truly happened with false arguments. It is also a good way to create confusion. If you're town then I guess it was unintentional as you explained and we just disagree on what is clear.

We had a protracted debate yesterday in the thread where it was concluded unanimously that it was optimal to not use the protect - I don't think you really believe the bit in bold is plausible.

On the bit in italics...the only person on-council who could have targetted me N1 is you - presumably you're not claiming that to be the case, so N1 any kill would have been off-council targetting on-council.

Bold: A single outnumbered scum might want to be careful with their nk. Wifom on if the council would use the protect even after the discussion. Although you're right about this point. More likely scum wouldn't be that worried after the discussion
Italics: Oops, you're right

I think we just finished a game together where I was scum. Admittedly it was a particularly poor game from the scumteam as a whole, but it was a decent illustration of what my scum-meta normally is - lurk and do minimum (with some exceptions). I can be good and active as scum but it's pretty hit and miss. As town in small games I'm fairly consistent in my dogged and zealous approach.

I'll take another look at this once I get a chance.

Minor point, but in my view it it's pretty hard to interaction-clear someone based on their approach to a town-elim. Interesting you assume, as I did, that those against the T-Bone wagon should get some town-cred. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption, but it is an assumption.

Yeah, I agree which is exactly why I haven't bothered to check T-Bone interactions yet

[Raya36]

I'll respond to Yessirree later, but I'm saddened that at least 1 town player thinks I tunnelled T-Bone like a moron yesterday.

Maybe a bit tunneled but not like a moron. I was pretty convinced too

[Raya36]

Raya loooks more and more town, so council:

HEAL: Mozamis, BattleMage, Raya

Although if we lynch Nono, we won't need a council:
VOTE: NONO

Try and see the wood from the trees, people!

Trade BM for Art?

[Raya36]

Oh nvm. I read the next post

[Raya36]

Ok so if Nono is clear how about
HEAL: Raya, Nono, Art

[Raya36]

That aside, the actions Raya did d2 and her failure to clarify what had happened in the council thread and let BM and Tbone have a he said she said fight was incredibly weird and worth looking into

Also for this part, I tried my best to clarify things but then they would take my words and just use them against the other or against me to try to get me more on their side anyway. I had 0 chance of ending that 1v1

[Raya36]

Is it just yessiree and that whole T-Bone and BM thing was actually TvT? And if that's wrong then we just go for BM next. I still think by A50 interaction moz is semi-clear. And Art too.

[Raya36]

Is it just yessiree and that whole T-Bone and BM thing was actually TvT? And if that's wrong then we just go for BM next. I still think by A50 interaction moz is semi-clear. And Art too.

And what if you're wrong on both me and BM? It's 1:5 now, elimming me + night kill makes it 1:3, which will already be MyLo (...MeLo? MILO?)

Kinda sounds like you want me to be too suspicious/worried to vote you now...

[Raya36]

Is it just yessiree and that whole T-Bone and BM thing was actually TvT? And if that's wrong then we just go for BM next. I still think by A50 interaction moz is semi-clear. And Art too.

And what if you're wrong on both me and BM? It's 1:5 now, elimming me + night kill makes it 1:3, which will already be MyLo (...MeLo? MILO?)

Kinda sounds like you want me to be too suspicious/worried to vote you now...

I'm not 100% sure BM is scum, and obviously I know I'm town. So why don't you reconsider this plan of yours for a second.

It's not me, it's not Nono, I doubt it's Art or moz, so it's you or BM, and a lot more people are saying BM is town than there are saying you're town.

[Raya36]

Is it just yessiree and that whole T-Bone and BM thing was actually TvT? And if that's wrong then we just go for BM next. I still think by A50 interaction moz is semi-clear. And Art too.

And what if you're wrong on both me and BM? It's 1:5 now, elimming me + night kill makes it 1:3, which will already be MyLo (...MeLo? MILO?)

Kinda sounds like you want me to be too suspicious/worried to vote you now...

I'm not 100% sure BM is scum, and obviously I know I'm town. So why don't you reconsider this plan of yours for a second.

It's not me, it's not Nono, I doubt it's Art or moz, so it's you or BM, and a lot more people are saying BM is town than there are saying you're town.

And let's start from the top - do this thought exercise for me, I flip green, BM gets nked, who do you flip now?

Moz. I'm going to go over interactions again in a bit and make sure it still makes sense to fully clear art and mostly clear moz. We also still have the opportunity to confirm someone else as town or catch the scum with the council

[Raya36]

Can someone explain to me why BM is town?

[Raya36]

my initial suspect is raya,, reason being her townread on me was weird, imo, would be helpful if someone took a look as well

Just to explain that, I very much scumread your play, but I didn't think it made any sense for you to be scum with A50 who was basically going against you being on the council and that point is stronger than my general read, therefore you were town

[Raya36]

I'm a part of most people's PoE so understandable if I'm not wanted on the council, but can we at least keep my PoE of BM and Yessiree off the council too? I'd like HEAL: Nono, Art, moz if I can't be on it

[Raya36]

Thoughts on A50 interaction clearing:

Nono - conftown

Artemiana - probtown

Spoiler:

Art -> A50: 460 463 488 This is the only post about A50 followed by 2 posts. Art was the first to vote A50 but then switched over to Yessiree when BM voted Yessiree (BM also had A50 in his scumpool). Then Nono and I voted A50 and Art went back to A50. If this was distancing I think Art would stay more committed. Also Art in a sense lead the A50 wagon and could have pushed the alternative, Yessiree, if they were scum.
A50 -> Art: 280 Had art as bottom scumread with Nono. 391 pushes against Art being on council, 424 also pushes against Art being on council, 450 wants to elim art but nobody else is voting there, 511 said again that art is a bottom scumread.

I really don't think it's possible for these two to be partners. If they are then they honestly deserve the win for that distancing.

mozamis - ??? no attempt to distance from A50 if partners

Spoiler:

moz -> A50: 65 heals A50, calls him very town, 165 heals A50 as his vote. 232 A50 read is meta. 523 A50 is getting elimed, still calls him town.
A50 -> moz: 45 heals moz, 180 heals moz again, 180 heals moz as his vote. 270 another heal with moz, 280 has moz as top townread, 424 moz was one of the options he wanted swapped into the council. At some point A50 also called out moz on a scumslip.

I actually can't remember why I interaction cleared moz. Probably for the opposite reason as Art, there is absolutely no distancing happening from either of them. You'd think scum would want to distance a bit but maybe they prioritized getting on the council. Still seems like a bit much. Putting moz back in my pool. Someone tell me if this makes sense from scum partners.

yessiree - could be partners

Spoiler:

yes -> A50: 286 has A50 as green, actually not much mention at all that involved meaningful content. At one point he said they almost share reads but that's all
A50 -> yes: 180 heals yes, 270 heals yes again, 280 has yes as third top TR, 424 has yes as an option to swap into the council

There isn't really anything that felt like they were partners or felt like they were distancing.

Battle Mage - don't seem like partners

Spoiler:

BM -> A50: 44 votes A50, 52 says his posts are bad, 206 says it's weird A50 is voting a council without himself, 212 hero solve includes A50, 468 has A50 in his scumpool. preference is yessiree, 506 votes A50
A50 -> BM: 280 has BM in scumpool, 424 wanted BM swapped out of council, 440 heals with BM

This could be distancing but it doesn't really feel like they're partners

[Raya36]

Does moz really make sense as A50's partner though? Maybe it just really is moz and they were obvious about it. Or maybe A50 was trying to pocket moz?

[Raya36]

Either way I don't want yessiree on the council. I'm not going to fight against BM since most seem to TR him and we can hopefully figure out it's him if he is scum with the council info

I could do one of these:
Raya, nono, art (ideally because this basically is a fully conftown council to me)
Raya, nono, BM
Nono, art, BM

[Raya36]

What are your thoughts on d1? What are the odds of scum No killing N1 and killing N2?

I'm either wrong about BM and that's who they shot at, or maybe scum was worried about being tracked (so someone off the council who was highly suspected). The second one means it was likely they were off the council the first night and on the council (or no longer suspected) the next night.

[Raya36]

HEAL: nono, mozami, yessir

rethinking, maybe,, it’s controversial, but the safest choice, imo

I'm really against this council

[Raya36]

I'd rather switch you and yessiree since I'm quite confident with A50 interactions it's not you. But honestly scum being on the council doesn't even give them that much of an advantage. They just know who is being cleared and their voice alone shouldn't have much influence on who that is when there's for sure 2 other town.

[Raya36]

Oh yes, forgot about that. Yeah I'd definitely much rather that swap

[Raya36]

HEAL: Nono, Art, BM

How does this sound to everyone?

[Raya36]

VOTE: moz
And I'll join this now too

[Raya36]

I still don't understand the townread on yessiree but it seems most people do TR them. I do also respect T-Bone as a player and in case T-Bone is right then maybe it is smart to keep BM off.

HEAL: nono, art, yessiree

I think that's heal-1

[Raya36]

Welcome T3. You didn't see that A50 had already flipped before calling him scummy or saying him and moz could be partners?

UNVOTE: for now

[Raya36]

Moz is in my scum pool and I have some thoughts mainly around interactions where A50 and moz seemed too close to be partners. Like opposite of distancing. But it wasn't enough to fully clear them

[Raya36]

What makes you say you're conftown by doctor

[Raya36]

Welcome Lukewarm!

Looking forward to the rest of your analysis. Just a quick hint for you. You should check who already flipped to save yourself some work

[Raya36]

Well that was one of my original council options and who I wanted elimed the most so I'm happy with that

HEAL: nono, art, T3

[Raya36]

I think that hammers the council. Let's wait for brass to confirm this before we vote incase we hammer before a council is chosen. We still have 2 days

[Raya36]

I'd rather yessiree but still want to wait for the council to be confirmed

[Raya36]

Unofficial

T3, yessiree, Nono (1):

Artemiana

Nono, artemiana, yessiree (2)

yessiree, Nono

Nono, Artemiana, T3 (3)

Lukewarm, Raya36, T3

Not Voting (0):

Remember, a valid vote for council will be three players within a heal tag, the council will be locked in when 4 players propose the same three person council.

Unofficial

Lukewarm (2):

Artemiana, T3

Yessiree (1):

Lukewarm

No Elimination (1):

yessiree

Not Voting (2):

Nono, Raya36

With 6 alive, it takes 4 votes to eliminate.
Day 3 will end without a council or an elimination in (expired on 2021-04-25 17:30:00)

[Raya36]

We still need to hammer the council, and we need to decide our elimination

[Raya36]

I like the council I'm on.

I don't think I'll be back before deadline so just in case: VOTE: yessiree

[Raya36]

But then Raya did not bite on the BM=scum line, and suggested instead that we vote Yes today followed by BM tomorrow. And Yessiree changed his tune, and started suggesting a no vote

Can't believe I missed this one earlier. It's not our fault the guy who's supposed to engage with us today kinda just dipped you know? It would've definitely cleared some stuff up between BM Raya and me, but it never happened. And speaking of Raya, what are you even scumreading me for? This is slothful

My problem is everyone is playing very town-like. I'm not even scumreading anyone in my pool. I just think by interactions you make the most sense as scum

[Raya36]

But then Raya did not bite on the BM=scum line, and suggested instead that we vote Yes today followed by BM tomorrow. And Yessiree changed his tune, and started suggesting a no vote

Can't believe I missed this one earlier. It's not our fault the guy who's supposed to engage with us today kinda just dipped you know? It would've definitely cleared some stuff up between BM Raya and me, but it never happened. And speaking of Raya, what are you even scumreading me for? This is slothful

My problem is everyone is playing very town-like. I'm not even scumreading anyone in my pool. I just think by interactions you make the most sense as scum

hmmmmm. Very much do not like this. Leaving your vote on the wagon that was less likely to pass, and then showing up literally minutes after the timer finished. Voting me off would have been the much smarter play here then not eliminating anyone.

I just got home from work. I said I probably wouldn't make it in time. Don't throw shade at me for that.