Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[Iverson]

As a warning, it's going to be awhile before I read the game, and it will probably be very piecemeal. 3-4 days before I completely finish.

Where should I be voting?

[Iverson]

The scummiest thing about peta so far is how he's pushing strongly for a thing he believes (nacho town, townbloc has scum) without having figured much out himself

Okay I ISO'd to see what the reasoning on The Bulge was but found this instead.

VOTE: Infinity

[Iverson]

What makes that post so bad is the quoted behavior from petapan is not scummy in the slightest unless you're already approaching it from a perspective of knowing petapan is scum.

As long as you have Nacho town you can defend it regardless of where you're at with the rest of the game. Asserting a townbloc has scum if you don't have many other reads is not surprising in the slightest.

[Iverson]

I don't like the quoted 980s, particularly 980. I'll hold judgement on The Bulge.

VOTE: notmafia

I’m trash, I’ll sheep mena, etc

You throw in the towel fast.

[Iverson]

Normally there's at least some level of uncertainty that comes with not having figured the game out, peta was approaching it with an agenda. Kismet notsci I and to a lesser extent VFT are all very towny but

peta was so sure there was scum in that group without knowing who it was.

Though I'm limited by game knowledge, I strongly disagree that this is scummy and think this points to an informed perspective on your end.

[Iverson]

I spent all of last day tuning out my friend so he couldn’t soothesay me because I was that confident in myself.

I also told mena if he flipped green I’d give him my vote for the day.

You want my vote? Earn it.

As much as I love AI I'd can't say I want to repeat the carry job of the 2001 Sixers. I like having teammates.

[Iverson]

Though I'm limited by game knowledge, I strongly disagree that this is scummy and think this points to an informed perspective on your end.

Why can't I disagree with you on theory here

I'm here to make educated guesses not to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

[Iverson]

Is this disagreement only theoretical to you?

The replacement generalization is interesting and I'll watch for it.

[Iverson]

Nacho flipping green makes me want to cull the townblock.

But not Bork.

Do you have any other opinions or shift of thought in light of the flips?

Saying you were wrong on Nacho and right on peta is very limited.

[Iverson]

But I'm town

Convincing.

VOTE: NotMafia

[Iverson]

Eh numbers wise I should unvote I think until I count

UNVOTE:

[Iverson]

VOTE: NM

3 votes should be fine.

[Iverson]

Nacho flipping green makes me want to cull the townblock.

But not Bork.

Do you have any other opinions or shift of thought in light of the flips?

Saying you were wrong on Nacho and right on peta is very limited.

I was skeptical about infinity but she’s been way better today.

Can you explain? I found 1768 town but the rest was null to me.

The point of my question about how theoretical the action was is that I didn't see them trying to sort me as claimed by boiling it down to theoretical disagreement alone. I believe they have a very hard townread my slot so that serves as some explanation for this leeway.

[Iverson]

She fades off as scum, her resurgence in activity is a good sign.

When immediately attacked?

[Iverson]

I would have literally policied Nacho after his first 3 posts and I can't believe he lived for 70 pages.

[Iverson]

Scum are going all out to get 2-0 and put us on the back foot for the rest of the game, there’s at least 1, probably 2 scum already on me here, if I were scum I would 100% have been the sacrifice

Name names.

[Iverson]

Can you describe what is changing post to post right now when you're giving these reads?

There is not much to read so far this day and those reads don't seem to be related to what has been posted so far

[Iverson]

You are giving the reads about 30 seconds apart. It is very unclear what you are looking at, what spurs the statements, and what time you are spending processing them.

[Iverson]

Cakez, there are two implications here. Both are bad.

One is that they're just fake reads from scum, split up to give the appearance of cognition.

The other is that you're not putting any thought into them at all.

[Iverson]

Cakez, there are two implications here. Both are bad.

One is that they're just fake reads from scum, split up to give the appearance of cognition.

The other is that you're not putting any thought into them at all.

Have you ever played with me before? Read my meta and come back.

Yes. "I don't really think as town either" is not the defense you think it is.

[Iverson]

FWIW now you're explaining and thinking, talking about the initial set

[Iverson]

Now that you're explaining to Kismet, sure. My point is that being more thoughtful and transparent goes much further than tossing random reads 30s apart with no context, explanation, or visible process.

I'm not your mafia coach though and I'd rather just leave it to Kismet to juice you for content, so keep going.

[Iverson]

ISOing NM it seems like he just wants to see how far he can get in this table playing like a dead fish. He knew exactly what he signed up for as town, that doesn't mean I expect him to turn tryhard but the hesitance to be wrong in his callout and to name names suggests he's scum.

P-Edit: Oh hello there. Talk more about those? Why am I excluded?

[Iverson]

I still mostly think Mara is town; i think her reaction to the nacho wagon is definitely the road not taken and she could've easily hopped on Nacho as a survivalist effort or made herself the 6th vote knowing i was basically going to hammer at deadline and wanted nacho more than i wanted her

peta was also the biggest driver on that wagon and it makes sense as scum if he was going to come in w/ the express purpose of defending nacho it was with the intent of creating a wagon on another townie

instead she said she'd rather take the no-elim - which as she correctly pointed out, isn't anti-town on D1

I wanted to intentionally hold off commenting on this Mara until I read what happened, but given how far out that is and the dialogue with Cakez right now I want to note that I'm super interested in this line of thinking and find the followup by Kismet very, very town.

[Iverson]

cakez whole trajectory is pretty disgusting, he makes posts with a lot of words and looks like he's solving but his conclusions are always so surface level and obvious

Is there a difference to you when Cakez is town?

It's weird that you didn't comment on either of Infinity or DC.

[Iverson]

You could also give examples on Cakez that you think are AI, would make my life at least easier.

[Iverson]

I'm ready to vote notscience Day 3 purely for 199, which went out of his way to demonstrate to Nacho what he was thinking about Nacho and had really lackluster takes elsewhere, and today's start.

Infinity is weird because I hate posts like 99 and 102 but LOVE 97 so much that I'd hard bet on the slot being town. I tried to not read too much into the Leafeon interactions even though I really, really want to like how Leafeon got defensive.

[Iverson]

@salsa Yeah, it usually takes a couple games before I get a good handle on someone's play.

@eevelutions Who's leafeon and who's glaceon

glace didn't want me to say but i already made it really obvious on accident

leaf is mist and glace is beeboy

pleasure to make your acquaintance

~leaf

Hi!

VOTE: leafeon

You don't feel like the town!mist I know so far

i haven't gotten focused on this game yet since i've been busy most of the day

generally that's the reason for a discrepancy

~leaf

Hey Not_Mafia, what do you think of this sequence?

[Iverson]

Bring it chuckles the odds of you killing me are 10%>

You seem a lot more concerned with that than solving the game.

I'm pretty sure 97 is an NAI post, why is it towny to you?

I liked that you went out of your way to comment on this and looped in the site meta. I really wish I could be more concrete, but fundamentally this is very gutdriven.

In contrast it's very easy for me to specify exactly why I hated 99, which was very ingratiating in its "Aw shucks!" manner, and 102 was weird to go out of your way to give as opposed to just waiting or voting a lurker.

[Iverson]

Not much, I don't know mist

I find it very weird that you are not even slightly interested in an interaction where the flipped scum was noticeably worried.

[Iverson]

I think I've made enough of an entrance for now, and I would like to resume day to day life, so I shall return another time.

[Iverson]

I will say I am very willing to flip both of these slots right now. (NM/NS).

NM's reads here are intentionally curbed to be reactionary and neutral on flup. NS claims to want to live up to his promise with Mena, votes NM, then shows a complete lack of interest in substantively engaging with the slot. He noticeably has not chewed on or thought about the game overnight.

[Iverson]

VOTE: cakez

Meh wynaut

This should be a very readable slot to notscience. This vote being prompted by NM pointing out Cakez's habitually surface level reads is very questionable to me.

[Iverson]

1. It's Monday
2. Still haven't been thinking about the game
3. Doesn't explain the Cakez vote or not trying to sort NM

[Iverson]

There isn't even a more explicit statement like "I'm waiting for Mena/want to confer with Mena", just whoops here's a Cakez vote and let's ignore the weird AF NM interactions entirely

[Iverson]

I find it very, very hard to believe that the best guess you have on Cakez 75 pages into the game is "I don't see a reason not to", and even harder to believe that you got anything from the latest NM interactions (you're welcome for doing the heavy lifting, btw) only to not comment on it. I don't even understand what the claim about Mena here is suppoesd to be in light of daystart.

Absolutely fine voting this slot.

[Iverson]

I’m not voting for policy I’m voting people I scumread lmao

...Am I supposed to interpret this as you having an active scumread on Cakez with the reason being "why not"? Like what are you even doing dude

[Iverson]

There's something in there about Cakez not trying to kill you, so push for an explanation if you scumread that, Christ.

[Iverson]

VOTE: notscience

Open to either this or NM but I want to see where this goes. I'll stop castigating him for a few hours and let others jump in but I am not thrilled.

[Iverson]

I'm sorry, you think "the three people shoving me are scum" with no reasoning is tryharding?

Mena, no clue, if we have it was not memorable.

[Iverson]

Do you think he's a brick left on a keyboard? Dude is smarter than both of us put together, he doesn't play but he's not a moron and it's unclear why him trying for 10 seconds, giving the most interaction-neutral reads he possibly can, is town indicative in the slightest.

I want to poweryeet this slot.

[Iverson]

I don't think demanding some amount of rigor or basic sense to your reads is unreasonable.

Why, specifically, is NM unlikely to give those reads as scum?

[Iverson]

Dude is smarter than both of us put together

Nope, try again

notscience individually might be smarter but I'm a big enough negative that it actively drags us down

[Iverson]

What about this conversation is tilting you? Be specific, I don't care if it's polite or downright vicious, it will not offend me in the slightest and I want to see that this is legitimate.

I have expressed skepticism over two reads whose justification was extremely thin and to me off color and the responses have not really addressed those imo.

[Iverson]

You can call me every name under the sun here if needed, I literally will not care and you have carte blanche.

[Iverson]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Still think notscience is scum but I've done enough for now. I want more rigor from him as town but I'm pretty confident that if he is scum no amount of effort will work.

[Iverson]

Iverson feels towny

i'm ok w/ the slot so far due to predecessor and pressure although we're in different spots about noddy's alignment right now

that said if it is who i think it might be then this might be my first time actually having to legitimately read them

i'll leave it up to them if they want to have that convo

I don't think my identity changes much, and I'm not even trying to hide it though I won't say it just to be a jerk. The only caveat to note is that this account has an extensive history elsewhere as one of very aggressive experimentation and playing suboptimally. Part of this is that I intentionally remove the tonal markers that make townreading me effortless in other games. The focus is purely on getting the best reads I can as town and in testing very specific strategies/unfavorable scenarios as scum, rather than worrying too much about carrying those reads through or in winning outright.

[Iverson]

I don't want to have an ideological debate midgame. You can take it up with me in postgame if you find my play on this account unsatisfactory in its drive to win, Kismet.

[Iverson]

While I understand the concern, I am extremely riled up by the comment and its implication to the point of anger and did not find either it or the followup in good fun.

[Iverson]

I got the criticism Kismet but anything about my integrity is just...touchy in ways that should be obvious given how much heart and soul I put into the game. This account does not exist to troll or half-ass.

i'm not really liking iverson thus far

~ skitter

Be specific.

[Iverson]

Yeah, I get that the phrasing on my end was not great even if literally true

[Iverson]

r.e. iverson i disliked his push on you and his one on cakez. idk who he is but if the two of you usually clash that is something i will bear in mind. i still don't like the cakez push tho

So break it down. This is still vague.

Cakez push was more trying to get him to be more thoughtful and read a reaction than anything I found scummy.

[Iverson]

Notscience push is legitimate and I gave very specific points of disbelief for you to evaluate, though I'm on my phone and can't link them.

[Iverson]

notscience I instantly read you correctly in [X] games we played together despite my disdain for much of your play, with a questionable choice buying you time as scum once.

Meanwhile here I am powershoving you.

Why does this have anything to do with a history of butting heads?

[Iverson]

That doesn't preclude my being wrong but this is not at all typical.

[Iverson]

for notsci i'm kinda disliking that you're expecting him to have some sort of substantial engagement with nm and are dinging him for not when ... it's nm. this is kinda irkign me.

Early in the game he promoted NM as readable given time. He opened with a vote on NM and gave the spiel about being wrong and listening to Mena.

NM shows up and gives content. Notscience's response was not to ask questions while he has the chance, not to comment on the content given, but to unvote and randomly flop onto Cakez without any explanation at all until I hounded him and he gave some bizarre bit about expecting Cakez town to push him (notsci). When hounded he also gave NM being town because ~some~ (trivially easy to fake) content

This does not look like trying to sort NM to me and only some of it can be explained by his identity.

[Iverson]

I would be very curious to hear more specifically why people think notscience is town.

NM cited tone, his tone was fine in Warehouse so I don't buy it.

[Iverson]

I'm inclined to believe Kismet's point on Mara, which leaves me at basically

Town: Kismet, Mara, Infinity
No opinion: Cakez, VFT, DC, Bulge
Scum: NM, NS

[Iverson]

Oh boy 685 is going to be a fun time for me to untangle

[Iverson]

But I think Cakez is town at this point so this is all moot anyways

Don't mind me just cherry picking, what?

[Iverson]

That quote is because today you claimed there was no reason to townread him other than sheeping you.

Reads are malleable and positions change but what were those things no longer apply

[Iverson]

Can you also clarify for me whether you still believe NM is unlikely to spit out three names and a basic Cakez criticism as scum at E-2?

[Iverson]

Thanks btw Kismet, I'm cherry picking b/c in between gym sets but will try to work through those holistically later.

[Iverson]

skitter, did your read on me have anything to do with the Cakez/notscience pushes

in tandem

with how I shifted, or was it strictly individualized reactions?

I'm explicitly wondering how you put the pieces together.

[Iverson]

Essentially I felt like Cakez got this certain attitude midway through the day that I noticed in some of his play here as well. Part of it is his criticism in respect to myself (he did something similar there as well) and just his overall snark levels seem like a carbon copy of that game.

Right, but now you don't seem to believe that. The reasoning you gave me was that you expected him to push you today and that he wasn't town except for the sheep. I'm wondering how what you just said fits into your current vote on Cakez.

[Iverson]

Don't seem to believe it's town anymore, I mean

[Iverson]

Cool, last question I have for the night: Any questions for me so far?

[Iverson]

Feel free to ask anytime, I look forward to it and good luck with the CEO.

This is not a bad situation to bus in, weird shit or no, but I prefer clean shutouts.

[Iverson]

I was town in legends so I'm not seeing your point?

Slow it down, find the context, then check. This entire conversation is about his Day 1 townread on you, which he no longer has.

[Iverson]

Very weird angled expectation given that I have never interacted with it given a read on your slot other than to say I don't know you.

Why does it even move the needle?

[Iverson]

Just bizarre to me that that was ever even a theory given what I had put on the table the last time you checked in, and bizarre to me that it's getting spun into something nulltown.

There are a million paths to take as scum here and most of them do not require buddying someone who I haven't played with, hasn't been around at the same time as me, and whose only pressure on me is a oneliner that I might be the scum in a secondary pool given by another player. Why is this the avenue you expect from scum Iverson?

[Iverson]

Like where even was the buddying? Voting Not_Mafia without saying anything to you?

[Iverson]

Meh, fair enough. When you have a more complete read let me know.

At some point I will read the rest of this game but honestly I'm enjoying living in ignorance a lot more than I expected.

I have ~other ideas~ but I have 70 posts in 24 hours so trying to slow down a bit

[Iverson]

Naw, I need time to figure out if I'm wrong on notscience and I'm more interested in slots I haven't read yet (you, Bulge, Momra (good posting btw)) or that haven't been here for the bulk of what I've been up to (Infinity).

I will say that part of this is that I scumlean the VFT slot and want more from it.

[Iverson]

Oh, and Not_Mafia should be flipped already but I'm okay talking.

[Iverson]

Only if Not_Mafia gives his express written consent, I don't want to be liable for what happens

[Iverson]

Kismet, I suspect temerity might sufficiently answer my problems with notscience. It does not help that the courage and bravado is a house of cards prone to falling apart. I want to revisit it later, but something I wanted to ask your opinion on was whether he was legitimately trying to sort me yesterday. I don't think he was: in the lack of questions, bite back, and in using my open invitation for questions to immediately front run the concern by trying to explain his read on me instead. Yesterday I thought it was +scum. Now I'm less convinced.

Skitter, I asked how you specifically read my pushes on Cakez/notsci

in tandem

, and whether the read took anything from the sequence, shift over time, etc. or as individualized instances.

I am very aware of Not_Mafia being "virtually impossible" to read in the site consciousness. I am not sure if I agree, but this is personal. The issue is that notscience's description of the Cakez vote makes it seem like the switch was not motivated by a scumread or by trying to sort

either of NM or Cakez

. This is even discarding the idea that you should try anyway, that NM was giving content at the time, and that notsci specifically was interested in trying.

My question for you is: Can you, in your paraphrasing, describe why the vote on NM followed by the vote on Cakez made sense to notscience?

p-edit: Lot of posts, if you feel something is already answered feel free to skip but am too busy to read more rn

[Iverson]

I don't think I have anything to add right now though I will probably revisit several posts tomorrow. I'm fine with an extended day and feel strongly about flipping NM for the reads and reactions since I replaced in. I am not planning to read the previous sections anytime soon, as I'm finding this more interesting.

[Iverson]

What? I'm out of range already? What a shame.

[Iverson]

It was a joke since I was not in the list, yes.

[Iverson]

It was a joke since I was not in the list, yes.

that was the list of people i'm mostly townreading, to be clear, and you're kinda floating just barely outside it

Now that's the healthy amount of respect I love to see

[Iverson]

I scumread NM because he's intentionally curbing his interactions with players. He said 3 scum were on his wagons, gave an okayish reason for Cakez, and peaced despite keeping tabs on thread.

I realize he's NM but I feel there's a reason he's not getting into it with my slot or others over this.

[Iverson]

I don't think that's to me but

Townlean: Infinity, Kismet, Momrangal
Null: DC, Bulge
Scumlean: VFT, notscience, Cakez
Scum: NM

Scumlean pile can go in any order, Cakez is there because of NM's side of interactions+just going through the motions at points. notscience softened for false bravado. The voteswitch was incredibly jarring to me but I am thinking I took the start about NM/Mena too seriously. I got an unvote for temerity but voting elsewhere instead was just, hm.

Kismet is a complete 180 in level of depth/thoughtfulness from the scumgames I have seen and I want to call it hardtown but I'm knocking him down out of spite

[Iverson]

I might slot notscience back down for exactly what I said above but that whole sequence was so against the daystart or any idea of solving, and more in favor of awareness of where his vote is, that it is jarring to me

[Iverson]

NM I'm sure you've considered it but an alt where you actually tryhard, bust out the walls, and style on nerds for a year before outing would be absolutely hilarious even though I know you like the jester role

[Iverson]

Can you walk me through the Momrangal scumread? I really liked the analysis/quotes from Kismet.

[Iverson]

Bulge, I'm not familiar with you or your meta, but I can assure you "I'd be doing more as scum, therefore I am town" is not an avenue worth spending two irl days arguing. It is a side comment that you tack on hoping someone agrees with it.

I would reset and be very intentional about picking one or two slots that are good candidates for a deep dive and go from there.

[Iverson]

These do not have to be scummy slots, but can be town ones to serve as anchors.

[Iverson]

At the risk of getting in the way of others, you are not getting speedlimmed and have time to work through things.

The danger is that you get in your own way by feeling that you need to shake off the wagon right now over being more calm and intentional with your time/effort.

Perhaps I'm only speaking for myself but I do not like the current panic and focus on defending yourself over being a bit more stoic.

[Iverson]

The order you're going right now is:

Shake wagon -> Catch up and ground myself -> ??? -> Push scum/Profit

The order you should be going in, at least in my opinion, and given that you will not be speedlimmed, is:

Catch up and ground yourself -> Shake wagon w/ better conception of game in mind -> ??? -> Push scum/Profit.

This actually works regardless of alignment.

[Iverson]

Suit yourself, I'll stop with the unsolicited advice.

[Iverson]

This is a bit authoritarian of me but to incentivize a slowdown and show my displeasure with the current focus:

VOTE: The Bulge

This is E-2, AKA effective E-1

[Iverson]

And I know exactly how bad it looks if Bulge is town is the best part!

[Iverson]

Any thoughts on any other pages or is this the best you can do?

[Iverson]

I have faith that you can figure it out for yourself.

[Iverson]

I feel as though my vote was very transparent. If the carrot doesn't work, the stick comes out. If I particularly wanted to vote scum I would be on NM.

[Iverson]

For anyone still curious, or in spite of those not, I am Prism.

[Iverson]

I don't think the restatement added much to the initial post, which I found extremely explicit and intentionally specific. My restatement was the reductive one.

[Iverson]

Well, you know it was reductive, but I want to split the hair and say it stripped some of that specific intent

[Iverson]

I was not trying to hide the alt, have no fear.

I would not really encourage language tells but I would be happy to see you succeed.

[Iverson]

salsa's a weak read and I've barely looked at prism.

You thought my vote on you was disingenuous and you're still focusing on forcing out towntells over digging deeper?

How very kind of you to let me get away with this for free.

[Iverson]

mine

[Iverson]

FUCK

[Iverson]

Mmmm, I'll take my leave for the night. Enjoy the conversation and drinks, everyone.

[Iverson]

Town: Kismet,
Townlean: notscience, Infinity, Momrangal
Null: DC, VFT
Scumlean: Cakez, Bulge
Scum: NM

[Iverson]

Yep.

The definition of "fair" seemed to be about treatment of players/arguments notscience but I am the dirtiest fucking scum player lmao, pocket sand/pine tar on the baseball type shit

[Iverson]

Notscience way up for things like the Infinity posts/wall comment to you, you down because you're focused on hitting tonal markers and until the very end it is unlikely you were focused on or reading anything other than towntelling/reacting to notscience.

[Iverson]

Hitting the right tonal markers for you still is there for others to read, but even if they were isolated you have to start somewhere digging out of the hole.

I don't like the emphasis on realtime interaction in a game where he has much to catch up on, and tonal markers over investigating hunches (eg. my vote being disingenuous). Having a Q&A with you about how he feels about past impressions of content without digging deeper into it until the very end does not go far with me.

[Iverson]

Notscience way up for things like the Infinity posts/wall comment to you, you down because you're focused on hitting tonal markers and until the very end it is unlikely you were focused on or reading anything other than towntelling/reacting to notscience.

this is literally what my purpose has been tonight, yes. i didnt read shit. i want notty and the rest of you to know i am town but mostly him. do you think you're exposing me or something here?

No, to be blunt it's shit ass play regardless of alignment and I don't see why I shouldn't move you down or vote you.

Which you can say "well idc" but since you asked, I'll answer.

[Iverson]

I took the step back and waited for you to finish.

Sort me, ISO me, or cry more.

[Iverson]

Let me be more explicit and frame this in a more positive light.

If you expect me to believe you can't display basic emotional complexity as scum, and so I should accept that in lieu of hunting: No. I will choose to believe that you are capable of one of the most basic things to do as scum.

[Iverson]

Anyway, despite my strong words, have a good rest of the night.

[Iverson]

If you don't understand why a focus on towntelling over scumhunting is scummy to me, idk what to even tell you man

[Iverson]

You just said you read Bulge's 90 where he is very open about trying to get townread before doing anything else lmao

[Iverson]

will try to scumhunt later today or tomorrow, just gotta let me get grounded here first

[Iverson]

VOTE: the big bad utter man

[Iverson]

man fuck homophones

shit too hard four mii

[Iverson]

And I accidentally used the write to

I can't even fuck it up correctly

[Iverson]

Why does everyone know prism but me?

Retransmission. Segment 1. Acquiring Contemporaneity.
It has been 91 days since the Great Catastrophe. The messenger speaks.

How real is the ground you walk on? How real is the machine you toy with, the music you hear, the lover you kiss, or the foe you hate?

Your foot taps the ground. Does that make it real? Your enemies bleed deep red. Does that make them real? The confusion growing within you due to my words… does it make you real?

What if reality wasn‘t what you thought it was? What if this was all a construction? A masterfully crafted simulation?

You know such things exist. You’ve been in the Animus before. In fact, aren’t you in one right now? You know just how real a simulation can feel even when it has long vanished.

You’ve experience the Bleeding Effect. Layers upon layers of reality, each blurring into the next.

Which is real, and which is not? What if none are real? What if everything you know is false?

We ran thousands of simulations. searching for the right version, searching tor Desmond.

Each one of them felt real. Very real.

But there’s no way of truly knowing, is there? Not for sure. Anything can be simulated. and finding the answer could mean erasure. From the build. From the code. From everything.

So much to ponder and so little computational capacity. Take your time.

This question has haunted humanity since its creation. It is a worry, a thought wormed deep in the collective mind.

2000 years ago, Zhuang Zhu fell asleep. He dreamed he was a butterfly, and woke up unable to decide if he was a man dreaming of a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming of a man.

In Plato’s cave, prisoners were chained and forced to watch shadows dancing on a wall. Freedom was denied to them until they accepted the intangible as reality.

It’s everywhere. Ask this professor at Oxford University, or this cosmologist at MIT.

And you. What would you choose, if you truly knew? Would you even want to understand? A dream within a dream, where even the truth is sometimes a lie?

In any case, simulations are not meaningless. They have purpose.The question isn’t whether or not you are in a simulation. What matters is how much of your free will is actually yours. No matter how true you are.

Your Turing test would do nothing to determine whether you are conscience or code. Eliza, the natural language processing computer program… She managed to pass the Test, did she not? And she was very much machine.

So… in Eliza’s own words…

How does that make you feel?

Are you sure?

[Iverson]

IDK if I'd say you're being hard on me. You haven't asked me anything and I thought the paranoid post was a locktownread and I found it

offensive [
/I]

My energy has definitely petered out which means I probably will have to read. C'est la vie.

Still don't think we should be eliminating anyone other than NM.

[Iverson]

(To Kismet) Like not townreading me on your own time is okay but if you're asking me zero and interfering with me zero then uhhhh

[Iverson]

I can't read The Bulge despite him deciding to play like a 5th grader at a summer camp but I think NM is again very intentionally not giving anything or interacting much, ie. Waiting to hammer or get flipped

Not in a trolling way

On my phone atm sorry

[Iverson]

And at this point he's intentional

not to demonstrate differently

just in case people find the shift scummy

[Iverson]

But dad I finally got my dinner and I wanna start Persona 5 Royalllllll

idk we'll see how long I play/if not maybe tomorrow, VFT is going to be hard in ISO because tonereading skitter is a waste of time imo and progressions are hard without full picture

[Iverson]

They were a scumlean for me for awhile because I thought skitter's read on me was vague/lacking, followups were not at all to me liking and I didn't like that there was no followthrough with disliking the individual Cakez/notsci pushes

I still think that but in 2181 skitter pulled similar wack shortcuts that didn't work

[Iverson]

I have literally been waiting for Persona 5 at least a decade, if not more

I refused to play any games made after 2011 just for fun for the full 10 years, got so hype for the announcement, acquired a PS4 just for this fuckin game and now it's finally fuckin time

[Iverson]

When I say "followthrough" on the Cakez/notsci pushes, I mean something like wondering to herself "Why on earth would she swap like that? This is scummy, what was the timing?" or similar

[Iverson]

idk if I'd call good NAI tone a superpower but most of the site does lack it yes

[Iverson]

Do as you will, I am not standing in your way. Judging you and your play is part of the game and it's not personal.

For my part, I am no longer attempting to really spur you towards correct play. I am currently voting NM. This means you don't have me breathing down your neck, and you have true freedom to get grounded or whatever you like; use it how you please.

[Iverson]

ie. What I just said is offensive, but I want to be very explicit that if what you want is me off your back, you have it and the freedom that entails.

[Iverson]

mine

[Iverson]

BOTH TIMES I DON'T EVEN GET THE PREVIEW IT WAS SO CLOSE

FUCK

[Iverson]

Not sure if that’s sarcasm cakez, but it’s from Assassin’s Creed (the second one maybe?)

it wasn't I was genuinely curious

Specifically it is from AC Origins

[Iverson]

Bulge mean I appreciate that you're at least reading a slot and pushing it but I'm not your dad and it's not my job to tell you I'm proud of you, I really hope my qualitative opinion of your play isn't something you think about at night or sitting on the couch.

There are multiple interpretations where this resolves without any contradiction but I'll continue holding off until one is made apparent, which to me it remains ambiguous.

Infinity, it might help to specify whether the people he'd sow paranoia on are inside/outside the bloc, and if that statement diverges into two separate scenarios depending on whether the townbloc is correct or not.

[Iverson]

Well bork I've already sunk 17 hours into this game

[Iverson]

Might be time for me to retire as a mafia player and just play video games all day instead.

I feel like I understand what that sentence said from Infinity yet somehow struggle to make it through the explanation, and the lack of explanation would not have particularly bothered me to begin with, so I'm kind of just ?_?

[Iverson]

I have considered the wagon makeup, but I think a combination of scum having incentive to bus and be off townwagons in conjunction with simply not knowing anyone's alignment to begin with has me worrying less. The questions I have, like why notscience seems to want to flip Bulge over NM, are more on that wagon. I do feel better about notsci but eh.

Like say I'm right and my Infinity townlean is correct. Bulge might be a marginally better vote than NM? If Infinity is scum I am definitely not touching this Bulge wagon atm. I worked this example out here for the first time, it was just a vague idea in my head of "idfk" rather than anything concrete

Like when my only strong TR isn't voting I personally am not going to be very concerned about wagon makeup even though two townleans gave me pause

[Iverson]

I am excited for the deluge of content that will surely result

[Iverson]

Okay I can vote VFT tomorrow.

skitter really does not like the idea of ceding this is a townslot. It has been very obvious that I am not pushing Bulge to be voted out, instead trying various ways before just giving up on him entirely for today. Still can't put together anything resembling a cohesive extended thought on me to save her life.

Even notscience recognized what I was doing repeatedly but skitter can't chain more than one thought together on me to save her life.

[Iverson]

Okay I can vote VFT tomorrow.

skitter really does not like the idea of ceding this is a townslot. It has been very obvious that I am not pushing Bulge to be voted out, instead trying various ways

to get higher quality content from him

before just giving up on him entirely for today. Still can't put together anything resembling a cohesive extended thought on me to save her life.

Even notscience recognized what I was doing repeatedly but skitter can't chain more than one thought together on me to save her life.

EBWOP

[Iverson]

I have been very, very open about struggling to read The Bulge and while they're on the lower end suggesting I actually am pushing them with the intent/hope of getting them flipped is flat out not paying attention, this is not the first time you made this mistake, and you have not even tried to fit the pieces together even if they were fundamentally not mistakes.

I'm pretty disinterested with mafia in general at the moment and probably won't sign up for any games after my current ones wrap up.

[Iverson]

And skitter something tells me you haven't been looking for reasons to townread me to begin with, not going to bother making a towncase for myself to begin with though.

[Iverson]

I need to stop phone posting and reusing phrases, how lame.

[Iverson]

I have been very, very open about struggling to read The Bulge and while they're on the lower end suggesting I actually am pushing them with the intent/hope of getting them flipped is flat out not paying attention, this is not the first time you made this mistake, and you have not even tried to fit the pieces together even if they were fundamentally not mistakes.

I don't really see why this is scummy

Being honest my attitude towards this game is one of arrogant disgust and I want out, but it's less the mistake and not really following up with it at all while voteparking on Bulge anyway.

[Iverson]

I think giving me any amount of respect is already generous.

[Iverson]

There's a reason I don't plan to sign up for more and have largely checked out of the ones I'm in. This game had my momentary interest with the novelty of not reading prior to replace in but I can't say I'm particularly interested in solving or being a good player in my own right anymore.

[Iverson]

Perhaps my statement came off too harshly towards specific players not living up to my normal standards, but playing on EM for years that never really bothered me, nor did it in the Undertales. This is 100% a me issue.

[Iverson]

I dunno, it's always weird for me when other players have more respect for me than I do, not in an "aw shucks" way but meh

[Iverson]

it's fine. the good games are lightning in a bottle.

I disagree, I think they're easy to make, but at this point I consciously would prefer to quietly go into the night and disappear over a supernova type deal.

But other players might rise to the challenge, and I tend to be a bad predictor of how badly I will want to win a game a week from the present day.

[Iverson]

You know, I'll retract the VFT scumread, and try to read a bit. I am not enthused by skitter's disconnected and myopic view of my slot but this is in line with 2181.

[Iverson]

Outline it for me then. I have yet to see you work through how my pushes, whether they really existed or not, work together as either alignment, and these are the only things I recall you mentioning about my slot.

[Iverson]

I don't think suggesting you have not considered my slot as town is unreasonable given the statements you have made about me that are on the table. Both conclusions on me taking Cakez/Bulge to task for poor play are much easier mistakes to make if you are looking exclusively for reasons to slot me as scum.

[Iverson]

I still don't see how anyone reads page 5 of this game and thinks Infinity is scum.

[Iverson]

For even conceding that over something more defensive using the "pred as town" as justification I want to go back on VFT, as unfair as that is.

If you want to explain why I shouldn't have expected more investigation & engagement from notsci after reading only the daystart be my guess.

[Iverson]

good
Kismet
Salsabil Faria
Infinity 324

good?
notscience

bad
SirCakez
Leafeon and Glaceon (beeboy, Mistyx hydra)
Not_Mafia
Brave Heart Lion
Disaster Cartel (Menalque, Ydrasse hydra)
Venus Fly Trap (skitter30, lilith2013 hydra)
The Bulge

I actually agreed with this which is absolutely fucking revolutionary

P-Edit: I'm saying read notsci's day start, where he says he's sheeping mena only to unvote/not engage, along with his page 1/2 opening about reading NM, and you should very quickly see why I pushed the slot.

It is incredibly frustrating to see you continually shut down speculation about

how another player perceives NM

because you are so consumed by your own perception of him. This doesn't even depend on me disagreeing, this is about two posts of notsci's.

[Iverson]

The point of that can be easily lost.

Skitter, I am saying that in order to make sense of my push on Notscience, you should read notscience's daystart up through Cakez vote, and the first few notscience posts of the game. These are what I had read at the time and together were deeply concerning, as I did not take the sheeping Mena at all light-heartedly

[Iverson]

i think VFT looks town throughout this entire interaction

I feel like you wanted some response to this but there's nothing for me to really respond to.

It's unfair of me to both want correct/rationalplay only to scumread it when it happens, expecting something more indignantly defensive w/ townreading my predecessor and it's me that's bad, but alas.

[Iverson]

I'm stopping at page 11 since a large part of my stepping back from mafia is to spend less time online period, but I think Infinity's followup on Leafeon still being scum later with beeboy still not posting just has me again having this slot as extremely hard town.

I hated Mena's opening pages which I found very awkward in its vehemency on NM and positioning on Notscience.

I felt like Leafeon's Cakez vote was a partner one but his reaction was

eh, okay

I wasn't a fan of either of skitter or lilith's early posting but I really do not know how to read this slot either right now or from the RVS stages.

[Iverson]

Town: Kismet, Infinity
Probably town: notscience
Null: Momrangal, VFT, Cakez
Scumlean: Bulge, DC, NM

Strictly ordered T->, I think I will unfortunately have to spend time worrying about NM wagon comp which I really did not want to do

[Iverson]

VOTE: sircakez

i didn't like the catchup

i don't think his reasoning is very thorough and seems to be fairly tailored towards not sticking out in thread state, plus some of his reactions (specifically @ DC) felt kinda overblown

~leaf

I felt this vote was very arbitrary and lacking in teeth, which is why I slotted it as a partner vote.

Cakez was very animated in his rebuttal, which I am conflicted on but...gonna slot as +scum, I think.

[Iverson]

My instinct is that burning all of NM/Bulge/Cakez/DC is a win. If you're comfortable calling the VFT slot hardtown I don't have to try so hard.

[Iverson]

If I show up again tonight yeet me out the window

[Iverson]

How quickly my desire to win turns though, be proud of yourself Kismet

[Iverson]

Hey I'm being productive and lifting instead, I set PRs in all my main lifts last week only to skip Friday and would like to not fall off the wagon

Also I do feel it is important to note that I understand that post will look like Iverson scum giving 2 town 2 scum but I'm hoping getting through the rest solves that for me

[Iverson]

ZERO p5 today

[Iverson]

VOTE: The Bulge

lmao peace nerds

[Iverson]

Just gotta go get my smoking jacket brb Kismet

[Iverson]

Nothing to say, Ydrasse?

[Iverson]

Maybe next time notsci!

[Iverson]

Anyway I'm town and Ydrasse is scum so that's cool

[Iverson]

Didn't even consider that I was scumclaiming or understand I was trolling for reactions, straight up she saw that vote and didn't think about it

[Iverson]

I am 100% serious about being town

[Iverson]

<3 gonna be a fun tomorrow if Bulge is town bb

[Iverson]

Yep that's a scumclaim rofl

[Iverson]

Ydrasse literally has no clue what is happening LMAO

[Iverson]

Yeah but you reached the natural conclusion at first instead of seeing town hammer and go oh okay makes sense no p-edit or reaction required

[Iverson]

I mean I am not dying at night LOL

[Iverson]

NM would have hammered as soon as he saw it. No need for me to blitz.

[Iverson]

What the everliving fuck is going on

idk but you're not drunk enough for it either way

[Iverson]

Anyway back to lifting hope that flips scum see y'all tomorrow

[Iverson]

Kismet if me/Bulge is town this is a reversal but if either are scum I'm counting this as a rank up

[Iverson]

i didnt think it was hammer and got up to get my cats some food ;_;

- ydra

You saw me instavote after you and say "lmao peace nerds" and did not think it was a blitz?

[Iverson]

lmao

[Iverson]

Somewhere petapan is either laughing his ass off or malding like no other

[Iverson]

[Iverson]

I mean yeah I don't think Bulge was obviously town but not eliminating Not_Mafia was criminal and there is nothing like watching the Miltank man tap dance style all over Nachomamma8 & the townblock

[Iverson]

"I've got to go, Bork. It's all right. I'm not afraid. Some time, Bork, when the team is up against it, when things are wrong and the breaks are beating the boys, ask them to go in there with all they've got and win just one for the Nacho. I don't know where I'll be then, Bork. But I'll know about it, and I'll be happy."

The fact that Nacho, widely revered patron saint of townplay, came into this game with one mission, eliminating the trolling Not_Mafia who was scum anyway, only to promptly get dunked on and watch town go down 0-2 while the Miltank Man just smiles and laughs, absolutely kills me

[Iverson]

It's okay he's NM, of course he's just going to blatantly curb interactions, make only a cursory attack on Cakez, and blatantly hammersit. Voting him would have been a waste.

[Iverson]

I don't think me shitposting and finding humor in our own idiocy should be terribly surprising to you, I singled out Nacho there but that wasn't because I hate him or anything but just how fucking funny this situation is. I'm definitely not playing well myself.

[Iverson]

I'm lost. I had assumed that one of Iverson/DC was going to get sacced last night due to my vote cascading into a double switch almost immediately. I still feel like there is scum in there. If NM had been town iverson probably looks worse here, but in this universe he is right that nm just quickhammers.

I mean yes but NM is UK time iirc, likely asleep, and I did not give anyone a chance to unvote.

Very hard YOLO

[Iverson]

Anyway I am sure that NM did not consciously hope that he would get lucky and that we would shift over time to something else. It was probably just an accident that he left behind virtually no interactions yesterday, let town piledrive themselves, and when you think about it he probably never even looked at his role PM. He's NM, after all, and everyone knows he has the brainpower of a squirrel. No way that he is actually an intelligent person that just likes to shitpost.

[Iverson]

{Cakez/Prism/DC} i have no idea

if not them then who

You think the Bulge wagon was all town while the entire scumteam begged to flip NM? Not even getting into DC/my end of day

my dude

FWIW I agree on Cakez/DC but am back to wanting to throw VFT in the scumpile and actually think about Momrangal rather than trust other people's reads

[Iverson]

Also w/ 10 players total I'm pretty sure you're missing a scum there

[Iverson]

that's a townslip if i've ever seen it fella, i have never and never would use mod errors & identity to my advantage before

[Iverson]

I don't know what you're talking about, I am a clean and very fair scum player who would never resort to such bush league tactics

[Iverson]

VOTE: The Bulge

lmao peace nerds

Oh I still don't get what this was about

How are you confused? Have you read the page and a half that followed?

What specifically is your interpretation of the later posting?

[Iverson]

VOTE: Cakez

naw dog i'm good

[Iverson]

The joke was that it is absolutely not below my level and bork knows it, it was just shitposting.

[Iverson]

Anyway I still feel like the Cakez interactions with both of the flipped scum are horrific so that's my vote for the day

[Iverson]

the head that actually posts is here

growing more confident on cakez, i hate how he's basically trying to just push past our scumread instead of like, talking against it

makes me think he just wants to get the miselim on our slot then leave the game tonight

p-edit: apparently we are both here

~leaf

example of leafeon's stellar acting