Large Normal 232—Sibyl's Elegy [GAME OVER]

[Marky Mark]

Evening all, just here to batter some scum.

Claiming now and will read up properly when I get home.

I'm a miller btw.

[Marky Mark]

Ok, let's think about this. Why would XP/Koba (hi again btw) soft their PR here? Miller there is a clear reason to claim at daystart, but I don't follow XP's logic in claiming in turns of how it helps town

[Marky Mark]

105-106 by Deathnote feels towny

I like Anya's 126 insofar as feels like towny throught process, but tbh I think T3's reaction is fairly normal for people reacting to random sus slinging (consider how people reacted to XP/Koba in https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84723)

--pedit yeah tbh that's the problem with players like XP/Dk, they'll pull random moves as either alignment

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Gypyx

First posters are scum.

You missed. Unless that was intentional?
VOTE: kittytacky

Classic scum play of putting the focus on mechanics (ie gypx being a mod and not a player) over semantics. VOTE: NDMath

[Marky Mark]

I mean it's not really role fishing when anyone on the plist can go to the Normal Roles List on the wiki and look at all the roles that begin with m. It's seems likely to me that XP had a reason for their claim, and understanding that reason would be useful in sorting them.

[Marky Mark]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up breaking out the sonar metaphor at least twice a day at this rate. I think it's fairly clear what the operating system is trying to do.

Maybe I'm just not very experienced at mafia, but I'm genuinely not seeing it. Anyways, I've voiced my point. It's up to them if they want to answer it.

[Marky Mark]

Anyways, night all. Feel free to join my vanity wagon on NDMath

[Marky Mark]

Anya makes a very good point ref T3, he has now defended two players (defended NDMath against my vote earlier)

I gave him benefit of the doubt over NDMath as he was bringing relevant meta info to the table, but I am more dubious of his defence of enchant

[Marky Mark]

You came late and full focus on mechtalk?
VOTE: NDMath

Agreed.

Lowkey townpoints for STD - his quesiton to etine was incisive

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Etine

I reckon you were spitballing ref having 4 SRs and I reckon town!you backs down when called out on it rather than choosing a random low-activity slot to make up the numbers

[Marky Mark]

The original tone of 286 felt defensive but I guess thats subjective as it comes down to how you interpret "all that Enchant was doing"

[Marky Mark]

I don't need to explain why your scum reads are bad when you've premptive-ly explained it yourself

I just didn't wanna seem like a fibber so I ISO'd someone and saw she had low content and lo and behold my 4th spot LOL

[Marky Mark]

Bad as in like they're wrong bad or my reasoning is bad cuz yeah I've definitely talked about T3/Nero Cain

Bad as in you admitted you manufactured the DCL read by looking at low-activity slots to find a 4th SR. The others are your opinion and I'm less bothered about those

[Marky Mark]

This isn't about your actual SRs being wrong, its about you manufacturing SRs to make up the numbers when you got called out

[Marky Mark]

Odds are in a 21 Player game a low-activity slot can be scum..

OK, why did you think that specific particular low-activity slot and not any other?

[Marky Mark]

I think mark might be scum here - something feels off but idk if thats just me being from the town pov of not having them conftown to me but i have my eye on that slot as of now because they do feel different from when I was scum against them in the past.

When you said you were a PR beginning with M, I did wonder if that was a mailman reference

[Marky Mark]

Look mate, stop trying to deflect this onto your actual SRs. It was never about that. It was about you manufacturing an SR by choosing a random inactive player after someone called you out on your 4 SRs statement

[Marky Mark]

As in manufactured the 4th SR to make the numbers up

[Marky Mark]

also yolo pagetop. Come at me bulge

[Marky Mark]

I have about 4 scumreads

who

(T3, Nero Cain, Rathe, deep-city-lights)

Deep-city-lights weakest of the bunch

Look mate, stop trying to deflect this onto your actual SRs. It was never about that. It was about you manufacturing an SR by choosing a random inactive player after someone called you out on your 4 SRs statement

Umm

Deflecting onto my..

actual

scumreads? You mean, the things I should care about? That you should care about? Not the fact I jokingly put someone as a fourth?

Explain to me how you "jokingly" picked DCL in 235. You mentioned it was a weaker SR but it certainly doesn't read as jokey to me.

[Marky Mark]

I'm like really really confused you came to that conclusion cuz you quoted the post where I clarified I just randomly ISO'd someone and put them there to not seem like a liar LOL x2

Yeah, you said that after the fact. It's easy to retrospectively justify the motivation of a post. The point is that nothing in the original post suggested it was jokey. You then subsequently tried to pass it off as that.

[Marky Mark]

If you think I'm scum for having fun then I die with a smile on my face!

Nice misrep.

[Marky Mark]

Can we go back to my reads please?

Nice deflection.

[Marky Mark]

Listen chum are T3/Nero Cain town or scum to you I'm gonna keep asking you until you're annoyed LOL

ok I'll bite
nero nullish
T3 I could see some associatives with NDMath/Enchant but pretty nullish individually.

[Marky Mark]

I mean tbf # of SRs doesn't directly correlate to # of scum Nero. Like there could be 5 scum and I might have 7 players who I find scummy (I don't rn but its an example)

[Marky Mark]

Listen chum are T3/Nero Cain town or scum to you I'm gonna keep asking you until you're annoyed LOL

ok I'll bite
nero nullish
T3 I could see some associatives with NDMath/Enchant but pretty nullish individually.

I appreciate that even if your vote is on me

Why null though? Got any bigger reason?

Well mainly because they haven't done anything massively towny or scummy yet. Although saying that some of the more recent nero stuff like 355 is ++TR

[Marky Mark]

Null at the least as in null-or-scummier or null-or-townier

[Marky Mark]

Null at the least as in null-or-scummier or null-or-townier

I think just straight Null. I don't wanna fully believe the whole (You/Nero/T3) thought because that's just really crazy. I liked at the least you answered me, but felt some whiplash when you were being all NICE DEFLECTION and stuff

then why not just say null? Null at the least kinda implies something more either way

[Marky Mark]

Im bamboozled rn

[Marky Mark]

Null at the least as in null-or-scummier or null-or-townier

I think just straight Null. I don't wanna fully believe the whole (You/Nero/T3) thought because that's just really crazy. I liked at the least you answered me, but felt some whiplash when you were being all NICE DEFLECTION and stuff

then why not just say null? Null at the least kinda implies something more either way

I like expanding my thoughts, I know sometimes they get all twisted but I try nonetheless

I still SR you but have some towncred for this

[Marky Mark]

(My underlines below)

In fact this weird pushing makes me think you are scum

trying to mislynch me.

This feels awkward and over-thought. If they are scum and they are pushing you then it is inherently implicit that they are trying to miselim you. The quoted sentence reads much more naturally without the underlined bit.

[Marky Mark]

Good point but explain how that is alignment-indicative

Townies can post at face value. Scum have to construct their posts to look townie so have more chance to overthink stuff.

I'm confused how ndmath is seeing this as a town tell

[Marky Mark]

I too, am stumped what logic etine claiming serves here. Like this is TSTBS levels of logic

[Marky Mark]

I would still like to hear directly from Etine why they decided to claim at that specific point, given how sub-optimal it is if they actually are town here.

But VOTE: Kitty for now. It was the over-wrought post that I have already mentioned that particularly pinged me.

[Marky Mark]

Also guys miller is not a normal role

I'm actually insulted that you think scum!me would not check the normal roles list on the wiki before fakeclaiming in a normal

Have some minor towncred tho because this feels like uninformed town and not a scum push

[Marky Mark]

Etine's claim is weird. Definitely an overreaction but I... kinda see how a townie would overreact there.

I believe Vasex is town. Still don't trust Etine. Smells like an awkward claim tossed out to relieve pressure.

VOTE: Etine

"I can see how Etine's claim could be towny, but I am also going to push them on the basis of their claim being awkward" I'm slightly paraphrasing here.

[Marky Mark]

@People who are still voting Etine (other than Kitty who has already covered this):

What are your thoughts on Etine's claim? Presumably you think it is fake if you are still voting them

[Marky Mark]

Obviously, this is a game and it is supposed to be enjoyable so I'm sorry to hear you've been finding things rough Etine. I appreciate I've pushed you quite hard earlier D1 and this wasn't anything personal, it's just an attempt to find scum fmpov.

[Marky Mark]

I'm inclined to give Etine the benefit of the doubt that their recent spate of posts is townflailing. Scum would have to be really shitty human beings to fake having game-related anxiety as some sort of gambit.

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Dunnstral

Sell me on this.

[Marky Mark]

Samantha feels so solid town rn btw

[Marky Mark]

"low content" isn't a good scumread this early in the game

scrutinize me cap'n

You've somehow managed to avoid talking about anything important, except arguably you jumping onto Vasex

Your posts read as filler and being on the edge of the game

also when i did post content he ignored it. he's not interested in reading my slot. he just wants to push me for some reason...

Yeah, looking through their ISO I can get behind this. Fair bit of mech talk and only a moderate amount of scrutiny/analysis. No follow-up or reflection on the question they asked in 429 either, although it is the weekend so they may just have not been on.

[Marky Mark]

Random thought but lowkey scumpoints for Artemiana and Cabd not voting. It's page 26 peeps.

[Marky Mark]

we need to push people harder with 8 votes, 9 votes, 10 votes...
kitty is a good candidate for that
the others also good, but you people are not enough flexible to try everybody with such shock voting therapia

i also bothered with complete silence of many players (though there are enough important events to react on), i have feeling that it sometimes happens when mafia is afraid to do anything that can ruin fragile good situation for them (for example, if both Etine and Kitty are townies), but i also know that during the weekend it is possible only zero activity from many of players, so i dont take it seriously

This all sounds very sensible. I'm just heading to bed but will write up some sort of rough readslist tomorrow evening

[Marky Mark]

Just jumped on the thread to read up and it seems to have gained 15 pages or so since my last vist smh. Will try to skim read quickly then post some thoughts

[Marky Mark]

UNVOTE:
I'm firmly with Nero on this one. Kitty feels scummy but I'm happy to give her a reprieve until D2 as the reward of a guilty/inno on a slot is worth the risk IMO.

IF

she is town, it also forces scum to make difficult decisions as do they kill the investigative or let them live in the hope they can line up a miselim on them D2.

I'm really not seeing the Enchant "slip" - just looks like a joke to me. I can believe that T3 genuinely believes it, but I am less sure that Vasex does, purely based off the respective tone of their posts.

Rathe's 878 was really weird and seemed to be suggesting Vasex thought Kitty was a Mafia cop, which was a really random/weird conclusion to arrive at.

IGMEOY Rathe

[Marky Mark]

NDMath asked me why I am hard TRing Samantha - the answer is pretty basic, they've just really felt on the same page as my POV this game. I don't agree with them on WindowsXP being scummy (Koba's tone/approach here feels fairly different to Bending, where they were scum), but I hardly think that post is a smoking gun against them

[Marky Mark]

Votecount 1.11 (after Etine claim)
Etine [6] - WindowsXP, T3, DeathNote, Nero Cain, Anya, KittyTacky

Votecount 1.12
Etine [5] - WindowsXP, T3, DeathNote, Nero Cain, KittyTacky

Etine's claim and follow up posts felt very townflaily, I reckon there's a very good chance of hitting scum within the group that stayed on the wagon post claim. T3 and Kitty would be the primary suspects IMO here, particularly as I think WinXP and Death just hadn't posted in the thread in a while iirc.

[Marky Mark]

Agree That Enchant/Kitty appear scum/scum. I'm struggling to wrap my mind around a townie who wants to trick people into quickhammering before the claim but doesn't stick with that goal after the claim. I have mixed thoughts on the claim itself though.

Tagging this for my own ISO. I'm somewhat SRing NDMath and the associatives here with Enchant/Kitty will be worth coming back to I reckon, although idk what to make of them rn

[Marky Mark]

Another random thought - Dunnstral/T3 6/8 on kitty wagon and I can see bus potential here

Like this is my first 21 player game, so I don't know what the bussing sweet spot is but I could deffo see the momentum going inexorably towards a kitty elim and one or both of those two jumping on board for towncred

[Marky Mark]

My current view of the gamestate. Tbqh, some of these aren't super fleshed out as I don't have the time and can't do the mental gymnastics to keep an accurate and up-to-date view of each of the other 20 slots in my head all at once

Town
Nero
Etine
Samantha
Kerset

Townish
STD
WinXP
Death
Vasex

Null
Enchant
Andres
DCL
DGB
Cabd
Anya
Arte

Scummy
Rathe
NDMath
T3
Dunnstral
Kitty

[Marky Mark]

can people stop claiming under 0 pressure lol

It's really not in the town's wincon

[Marky Mark]

I was debating a vote on T3 but I have just enough doubt that their push on the enchant "slip" could be genuinely misguided as opposed to malicious

I don't like the cabd wagon. They are too null for me and they've already provided the town value in terms of setup spec experience, so I'm gonna start a vanity wagon as an alternative

VOTE: Dunnstral Minimal analysis/scrutiny this game outside of their push on STD, a slot that I'm townreading. Decent amount of lurking and mechtalk and the #8 slot vote on kitty without much in the way of context or follow-up.

--pedit lol Cabd

[Marky Mark]

Correction - Dunn was #6 slot on Kitty wagon. Clearly, I can't count. The general logic still stands, although this does downgrade that element of their scumminess to an extent.

[Marky Mark]

I'm going to call it a night there - take care all

Let me leave a

FOS T3

as a goodnight gift - I want to dig into Dunn a bit more, but I'm not averse to a T3 wagon either

[Marky Mark]

Phoneposting

Was brushing my teeth and the T3 claim kept going round in my head. Would be a big gambit as scum, he was under some pressure but not loads. I'll downgrade my FOS to a dirty look of suspicion but something still feels off there

Pedit - I've not had a game with traitors in before, why would the claim be indicative of one?

[Marky Mark]

By the way we cannot even give the exact aim to the Kitty,because mafia can shoot this target (or just make a lie, that the check was in the dead body).

Why not? Make him target deep-city-lights or whatever. Its not like scum would be happy to use their kill on a lurker.

This kinda play makes a lot of sense. We give Kitty a specific target who it wouldn't be the end of the world if they died and make it clear that if they target anyone else they will be policy limmed. If kitty is town then forces scum to make tough choices on whether to NK kitty and/or the stated target of Kitty's investigation and if Kitty is scum then we aren't much worse off

[Marky Mark]

To give Kitty one more night? Till the end of the game?

They've claimed 1-night cop.

IGMEOY

[Marky Mark]

Correction: 1-shot cop, but you get my point

[Marky Mark]

Like how confident are you that Kitty is scum Vasex? - because even if you were 80% confident (which wouldn't be unreasonable) the risk/reward would probably still be in favour of eliming tomorrow so that you get the slot info on a slot of our choice in the 20% case where they are town.

[Marky Mark]

The argument shouldn't be whether kitty is scum or not

It should be about why we can't elim them tomorrow instead of today

I agree with your logic here, even if I have a sinking feeling that you/kitty could be S/S

[Marky Mark]

Minimal analysis/scrutiny this game outside of their push on STD, a slot that I'm townreading. Decent amount of lurking and mechtalk and the #8 slot vote on kitty without much in the way of context or follow-up.

Unfortunately (?) that's not really a reason to scumread me

Which one of the multiple reasons above do you take issues with?

[Marky Mark]

Correction - Dunn was #6 slot on Kitty wagon. Clearly, I can't count. The general logic still stands, although this does downgrade that element of their scumminess to an extent.

I was told to move my vote off of save the dragons.

I feel like town here argues why their vote was a good vote, rather than sloping the accountability with "I was told to move my vote", which says nothing about why they moved it

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: T3

I initially gave the claim credit as it was made under 0 pressure, but the more I think about it the more dubious I am that you are both BP AND town-aligned. Traitor and/or BP 3rd party would make sense here, having read up on the wiki.

Etine also got major towncred for claiming under low pressure earlier, so I can see how scum might try to copy the same play, hoping for the same results

--pedit, I must have missed Enchant asking Kitty to check Etine when catching up but would be good to understand why from Enchant as I thought Etine was largely TRed following their claim

[Marky Mark]

Correction - Dunn was #6 slot on Kitty wagon. Clearly, I can't count. The general logic still stands, although this does downgrade that element of their scumminess to an extent.

I was told to move my vote off of save the dragons.

I feel like town here argues why their vote was a good vote, rather than sloping the accountability with "I was told to move my vote", which says nothing about why they moved it

OK.

I was the only person voting Save The Dragons, Kitty was at 5 votes, Cabd was at 6 votes. I preferred Kitty over Cabd, and my vote wasn't doing anything.

Late D1 I would agree, but there was still plenty of time to start a new wagon if there were people you felt were scummier or who could do with sorting

[Marky Mark]

whats makes it unlikely that he's a town bp?

BP is one of the roles that benefits the least from claiming as town and T3 claimed under minimal pressure. Which makes little sense by itself...

...but then when you consider Etine had earlier claimed under little pressure and got towncred out of it, you can see why others might try to do the same thing

[Marky Mark]

Ref leashing, we should not be hammering ANYONE until there has been clear town consensus on who Kitty is going to target tonight

[Marky Mark]

I want to hear a more in-depth explanation from T3 on why he chose the moment he did to randomly claim BP, given how anti-town it was to do so

[Marky Mark]

It's either Cabd or Enchant today IMO. Maybe T3.

Rule of 3. Offer two miselim options and throw in your partner as the weaker third option. Kitty/T3 scumteam looking pretty feasible rn

[Marky Mark]

hey Mark, did your view of artemania change any ofter I told you it was an alt?

Tbqh it's not a slot that I'd invested a massive amount of effort in sorting full stop (see my previous comments about not being able to hold 20 sets of nuanced reads in my mental map of the gamestate)

Like Mom incorrectly pushed VT!me in the Bears mini, so it made me wary that the slot might me predisposed to SR my playstyle, but I'd not really put much thought into it beyond that

[Marky Mark]

To give Kitty one more night? Till the end of the game?

They've claimed 1-night cop.

IGMEOY

what does that mean and why are you shouting it at me

I've Got My Eye On You is the phrase. As you can see from the post, it was addressed to Vasex and not to you, Anya.

[Marky Mark]

Voting Enchant gives us info, mor than anyone else. The entire wagon against me is "possibly" claimingtraitor even though I don't know why people think there is a traitor in the setup.

I'm not a big fan of the "let's flip X slot to get info" line of thinking (in general). If the gamestate is largely similar D2 we can look at a Kitty lim and that will give us associatives for Enchant

[Marky Mark]

I want to hear a more in-depth explanation from T3 on why he chose the moment he did to randomly claim BP, given how anti-town it was to do so

[Marky Mark]

i can imagine this kind of player with ease, especially among girls
very talkative when she is townie
very lurking when she is a scum
and this dancing aroung the password really bad in this context

btw smb was defending her for that that it is definitely townie thing. i should remember who. marky mark and someone else

Gender stereotypes are bad yo

[Marky Mark]

On one hand, Arte/Mom's play was very different this game to when she was a TPR in Bears

On the other hand, we were within touching distance of a T3 elim and then a random counterwagon appears out of seemingly nowhere

[Marky Mark]

I am doubling down on T3 here - the 180 on the claim when pressured to reveal his thought process seems fishy to me, and I've literally seen scum pull this one before (Flavour Leaf in Bending).

Also, if legit, why would he reveal his gate and give scum free info rather than just saying that he is some sort of cop?

[Marky Mark]

I'm all for giving an investigative claim the benefit of the doubt to see what they come up with overnight, but not when that claim is a 180 on a previous claim to try and squeeze the maker out of an elim

--pedit, agreed on NDMath's vote on Samantha being off

[Marky Mark]

Vasex what are your thoughts on T3 following their change of claim?

[Marky Mark]

Because I can only use night 1 and night 2.

That is your gate. Why give that info away?

[Marky Mark]

not when that claim is a 180 on a previous claim

What did I miss?

T3 claimed BP under mild pressure then when asked for their reason for claiming subsequently claimed N1/N2 Cop

[Marky Mark]

bp-"traitor" changes his claim to a cop
is this not too dangerous for the traitor? to bite the bullet at himself, not in some townie...

I don't quite follow sorry.

[Marky Mark]

It was the BP claim that made me initially think traitor/3rd party might be in the mix, but now that this turned out to be a fakeclaim, there are a bunch more potential motives open

consider this:
Etine claims under low pressure and gets towncred
T3 claims under low pressure and just happens to claim a role that's hard for town to verify without attempting to vig them
When pushed on their claim logic T3 then claims a completely different role, including the specific modifier
At a similar time a counterwagon springs up out of nowhere on Arte when T3 was in real danger of getting limmed

T3's logic is that their BP claim was gambit to ensure Kitty gets elimed without revealing their actual role, but general consensus was to lim Kitty D2 barring a major change of gamestate anyway regardless

I was thinking T3/Kitty S/S but just maaaybe T3/Vasex are actually S/S given the speed the Arte counterwagon gained pace

[Marky Mark]

The TLDR is why would a townie pull a fakeclaim gambit to lim a slot that was very likely going to be limmed D2 anyway

[Marky Mark]

I'm going to bed, night all. It's been a pleasure

[Marky Mark]

(My underline below)

I'd vote out both cops to be honest.

I know the correct play is to leave them both alive for a round in a game this large but... idk, I don't care if they both die.

Is there any way to elim them both in one time today?) Maybe some rule in mechanics

And i agree that at least 1 scum here

But i can understand the necessity to wait for checks and think about it more after night kill.

1.) If you're town here this is cavalier as fk. Do you actually believe that both slots are scum and/or the town would overall be better off with both dead?
2.) I think you know how unlikely a double-elim is to be a thing mechanically in a normal, but you want to give the impression that you would be massively relaxed about both slots being killed

My working tin-pot theory here is Vasex/T3 are S/S and Vasex wants to give off vibes that he's ok with a T3 elim while knowing its not gonna mechanically be a thing

[Marky Mark]

Townys entrance from Ana. I would rather not vote LHF slots day1 right now.

Andres has basically just been pointing out stuff mechanical.. moving to lean scum.

"Let's not go after LHF slots guys, oh but let me just drop some SR points on this LHF slot"

[Marky Mark]

So would I be right in thinking that you think 1 of Kitty/T3 is mafia and that is more likely to be Kitty?

[Marky Mark]

If so, why would you raise the idea of eliming both of them? Surely better to elim the one you SR more first, and then go from there?

[Marky Mark]

In other news...

Nero gets ++TR for good game management and raising the point about starting to work towards a PoE
Kerset gets ++TR for valid criticism of Nero's LHF PoE
Ana's entrance is NAI but shows she is generally competent at the game. I also appreciated the flattery towards my slot.
I'm inclined to believe Andres ref being unwell (would be pretty below-the-belt for scum to use this as a play), so will give them a bit of space for now
I can empathise with Cabd's pain, also working in IT and having been called into the office at short notice today. I'd like to set the record straight though that googling for fixes is absolutely a core part of pretty much any job in tech.

On a slightly more serious note ref Cabd, are they this low-activity usually? I agree they haven't provided loads in terms of post analysis, but their experience in terms of setup spec has actually been useful today, which they get some NAI-but-useful-to-have-around points for

--pedit @Vasex, I'm not super experienced but I've not seen a town fakeclaim before or multiple cops. I've not played this game size before tho. My point still stands though that if you think 1 of the 2 is the cop why would you not just want to elim the one you SR more rather than talking (even hypothetically) about eliming both

[Marky Mark]

I agree it was in response to deathnote, but it still feels to me like something that you said to give off a vibe. I appreciate this is 100% subjective tho

[Marky Mark]

The TLDR is why would a townie pull a fakeclaim gambit to lim a slot that was very likely going to be limmed D2 anyway

I have still yet to see rebuttal to this line of thinking that would make me want to vote anywhere other than T3 rn

[Marky Mark]

I mean I'm mortally wounded that I'm losing townpoints with the Bank of Vasex(TM) but I think I'll still manage to sleep at night

[Marky Mark]

I suspect that I am in the minority in thinking T3 is the top SR here, but just have a think about the point I've reiterated over whether a fakeclaim gambit makes sense for a town cop to make to try and lim a slot when that slot was looking highly likely to get limmed 2 anyways. Draw your own conclusions.

[Marky Mark]

And, with the pagetop stolen, I will bid you all a good night. Take care all

[Marky Mark]

Hey all,

I have been out this evening playing cricket. I am pretty wiped and am currently lacking the energy to catch up. I'll try to make more time tomorrow after work to look at stuff.

[Marky Mark]

t4 is town bc why would he counterclaim kitty with that cop claim in such a bad position but everythign about kitty is howling

vasex t4 are my cities

kitty anastasia are the sheds

I'm back.

scum!t3 has more reasons/motive to pull the BP fake claim gambit than TPR!T3 does.

If T3 is town then he isn't achieving much:
-He was in no real danger of being NKed, so claiming BP doesnt change this
-Kitty was likely to be limmed D2 anyway, so his fakeclaim at a push might have expedited this, but the mood was already against it
-If it ever comes out that he is not in fact BP then risks looking bad (eg if tracked etc), which is unecessary risk for TPR

For T3 scum, the BP claim establishes some towncred (see the case of Etine). The gated cop subsequent claim could well be him hitting the panic button when he was in danger of the fakeclaim collapsing and getting limmed


I agree the BP fakeclaim is not 200 IQ as either alignment but it makes even less sense as town

[Marky Mark]

We need to elim Artemiana and Anastasya today. It will be very useful, we've got much info, this is the best option instead of Kitty/T3. Some people think she is townie (NDMath, Windows XP, Marky Mark, Etine), there is much defending her from them. And she is most possible scummy here (with Kitty). And some people scumreading almost only her (Cabd, Anya, DGB, STD). All these people in two brackets will be kinda checked after revealing her side. Her push to NDMath is also can be vital.

Arte thought Mark, Vasex, Etine are scummies. Ana came and immediately fixing this (because there is a high risk for her to be elimed), trying to be allies with almost everyone, only pushing NDMath (who trs her). Even T3 and Kitty are townies for her.

Point of order, I have not TRed Kitty. Individually, the slot is scummy, but the associatives around the T3 wagon made me think that Vasex/T3 S/S could be a thing, which might make her less likely to be scum by association, if that makes sense?!

[Marky Mark]

Cabd using Momrangel(Artemiana)'s inactivity to vote me instead of engaging me on my content is highly suspicious.

If he is town I am infinitely disappointed in him.

This is quite a good AtE

Clearly not my crowd or my game.

As is this

[Marky Mark]

I was fine (not agree with but understand) with your logic but the last sentence feels like a huge jump to me. You're going from "T3 might be scum trying to get Kitty elim'd today" to "T3 and Kitty seem S/S or maybe Vasex"

I'm thinking through the associatives. T3 scummy and Vasex defends him while also pushing kitty and creating Arte/Ana counterwagon when the T3 wagon was getting hot. Vasex also goes on about being ok with giving up both kitty/T3 as double elim while knowing this isn't actually gonna be a thing.

Tbh, I had more equity in the Kitty/T3 theory when T3 had only claimed BP, the subsequent change of claim to gated cop made this less likely

Why would a scum {copy-paste the rest}?
A townie could be over-excited at knowing a very likely scum from their pov, scum wouldn't have this motivation.

See my response to this issue above, its not a great play as ever alignment, but makes very little sense given that the consensus had already swung hard to eliming kitty d2

[Marky Mark]

Mark, are you trying to convince people to elim t3?

Yeah - just dropping some catchup posts as I get up to date with the thread and respond to stuff. Based on the current game state, I don't think there is enough town consensus for it to be a reasonable possibility today tbh but I will call out scummy behaviour when I see it and nobody has yet come up with a satisfactory explanation for his actions from a town pov

[Marky Mark]

Dealing with recent developments, Cabd is null for me. I agree that a lim on him is better than a pretty much 0 info slot like DCL, but it still isn't something that I'm in favour of.

I can understand Ana's frustration that Cabd's SR is based on her predecessor, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily made in bad faith. If you have years of experience of a particular player then you are probs gonna put a decent amount of weight on the few interactions that they have had.

[Marky Mark]

@Anya ref Ana - the whole "I have 7x my predecessor's posts but you are SRing my slot based on her" (I'm paraphrasing) from Ana does have a feel of scum who think they've been caught for the wrong reasons about it

[Marky Mark]

Ref cop leash, if DCL isn't gonna participate in the game or replace out then copping them is probably one of the most +EV plays for town here (eg instead of Samantha). How else are you going to sort the slot other than limming it?

[Marky Mark]

Anastasia and Vasex appear to have very similar reads outside of each other and kitty.

Samantha town told in my eyes;

Spoiler:

I'm gonna echo the sentiment not just for your dkkoba reasoning but for mine too

the main reason I think ndmath and anastasia are town is because of their critical view of me

there's 0 reason to think I'm town this game lol

even the posts I made that weren't mechanical were borderline mechanical, and the few that were neither were basically nothing

idc though appeal to rathe and I'll change my vote; I haven't even read any of your past posts

"You shouldn't be townreading me." is something I've seen from town numerous times but not from scum; Just is not something scum think since one of there main goals is to get townread.

My reads feel static right now.

VOTE: cabd
L-2

The whole "pocket attempt denied"/"why aren't you SRing me" is pretty NAI. This feels like a convenient way to explain vote pivot away from Samantha to Cabd

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: NDMath

I've made my peace with the fact that I'm in the minority in wanting T3 limmed today. The vote in 1003 makes little sense after calling out two much more viable wagons as S/S and the recent move of vote from Samantha to Cabd isn't great either as outlined above

[Marky Mark]

I'd take Ana as a compromise lim if we were close to deadline, as things currently stand

[Marky Mark]

t3 had made 10th vote on kitty btw.

Just checked T3's iso, he's voted Kitty twice as far as I can tell

[Marky Mark]

Ah right, I thought you were saying he had made 10 votes on Kitty. I misunderstood.

[Marky Mark]

Vote enchant to see if there is some grand conspiracy.

If yes then we know kitty is scum.

Looking back at T3's interactions with Kitty - the quoted came AFTER Kitty's claim, so if T3 really is a cop then surely he would be primarily pushing Kitty here after her claim and not enchant.

T3s behaviour just does not seem consistent with how a town gated cop would act here after Kitty's claim

[Marky Mark]

This is repeated shades of Etines '4 SRs' very early D1.

[Marky Mark]

Which was, by their own admission, them making an exaggerated statement on the gamestate and then subsequently scrambling to justify their own statement retrospectively

[Marky Mark]

I would be all about SRing Etine if it wasn't for the fact that they townflailed so hard around about the time of their claim. They have definitely stepped down a notch in my list tho

[Marky Mark]

Mark, by that moment it was obvious that Kitty won't be elimed today, I told it too before these posts

The posts I quoted came only 3 hours after T3 claimed and encouraged people to vote kitty

ugh you know what
vote kitty
if kitty isn't scum vote me tomorrow i'm just a 1 shot bulletproof and after everyone RANDOLY scumreading it's not like mafia will ever try to kill me

What had happened in between was that T3 had gathered significant heat following their BP claim.

So I kinda see your point that things were moving away from Kitty looking viable as a D1 elim, but not *that* quickly, and it was still a significant change of position

[Marky Mark]

I would be all about SRing Etine if it wasn't for the fact that they townflailed so hard around about the time of their claim. They have definitely stepped down a notch in my list tho

do you think they are townflailing now?

Their 4 scummy reads in the list of votes on Cabd felt quite far off, in terms of wider tone honestly idk, it felt very petulant and frustrated. Still mulling it over

[Marky Mark]

Let's keep it civil please peeps.

[Marky Mark]

Have you played with koba before Samantha? I read her in a very similar way in my first game with them but I think a lot of that posting style is just how they are as a player

[Marky Mark]

+1 for both claimed cops to acknowledge their targets publicly before any closure of the day

I'm gonna be having a few socially distanced beers with mates tonight, so won't be on much until tomorrow unless I decide to jump on afterwards and drop some truth bombs while 5 pints down

[Marky Mark]

Well that rather popped off last night didn't it?

[Marky Mark]

I think Anya hit the nail on the head ref the fact that cabd isn't that scummy a slot, but equally the reaction to fake hammer is easy enough to pull and is NAI

[Marky Mark]

Andres is also hitting the nail on the head ref T3 and their claim(s).

[Marky Mark]

DGB WAS STRONG TOWN FOR HIM (he repeated that after his townie dragons), NOW HE AGREES WITH XP TO CHECK DGB

This is a reach - T3/Kitty are being leashed so them agreeing to check a slot proposed by other players != them personally SRing that slot

[Marky Mark]

Honestly, I thought Vassex was town af early D1 for the push on Kitty, but they now seem to be spraying from the hip considerably

[Marky Mark]

My vote was on Enchant at that time and "Pocket attempt denied" is a windows quote.
I also noticed Cabd wagon was filled with townreads/townleans for me apart from Etine & dcl, which was a heavy factor.

"Pocket attempt denied" was a general reference to the fact that players questioning ppl townreading them is NAI and scum can pull that too

You are correct that your vote was on Enchant, I was conflating that with your previous post where you voted Samantha.

[Marky Mark]

@NDMath -> Why vote Andres over Enchant if Enchant is in your top SR tier (the other entry in that tier being Kitty, who has claimed PR)?

[Marky Mark]

A quick look at the last 5 large normals finds:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84936 -> 2 trackers
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83940 -> 2 gunsmiths

so clearly duplicate PRs can be a thing, although they weren't cop roles in those cases

[Marky Mark]

I would be less sus of T3 if they had just straight up claimed cop rather than doing it only when their BP claim was falling apart under scrutiny and they were close to being limmed

[Marky Mark]

like my first reaction was that Kerset is blatantly lying but it's a 2013 join date so maybe he could have just never been in a game with multiple cops.

Check the archive: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=37208

Good find - I didn't even know this was a thing

[Marky Mark]

Fun fact - only instance of double cop in the archive was in a fire/ice game where there was a cop that detected each specific mafia faction.

Another fun fact - there were X shot cops in the archives, but no N1/N2 cops

[Marky Mark]

This is all looking less than ideal for T3

[Marky Mark]

@Vasex -> why encourage people so vocally to vote cabd (which couldve easily led to an elim) if you were not SRing him? I'm not quite following the logic here

[Marky Mark]

Mark, you are the third one asking about this)
Ok smth like this:
1) i wanted to finish day faster; i dont know for sure who is cabd, so i dont care much about him;
2) i wanted to add some pepper, to get more info from other actions, to get some scummy fails, like enchant did, voting on e-1 for his townie
3) in few moments (like in a moment after reaction of std or about that) i was thinking that me voting cabd can prevent some other votes, who dont want to vote in this direction maybe with me or if i just ask to vote smb loud this has opposite effect to others

It should be obvious that it was a fake, especially when i was joking about amount of votes or when i said that we should help Kitty and Anastasia to elim cabd (obviously joke, because they are scums for me), or just because cabd was null for me far away from bottom-scums from my list like kitty encgant and anastasia

Thanks for the explanation.

1.) Rushed days are not in the town's best interests
2.) Fair point
3.) You were voting cabd and yelling at everyone to vote him to make people not want to vote him?!??

[Marky Mark]

Like I get the whole running up a wagon to fish for reactions thing but that last point seems like a massive stretch and feels like retrospective justification

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Vasex

Yeah, I'm not buying this and I was already starting to have my doubts about you

[Marky Mark]

yea im new this is my first game

No you're not the way you are confident about this traitor thing implies you think you have knowlege about forum mafia
Whats your main/site you came from?

ive never played mafia before im new

doubt.jpg

+1

[Marky Mark]

Andre you are preaching to the choir mate. I've been voting there, but there just wasn't the town consensus to put a T3 elim through.

[Marky Mark]

I think people are leaning towards the "Leave it till D2 so that we at least get a result if they actually are town" strat, which I am fine with for Kitty, but meh I think that's giving T3 too much credit after the BP fakeclaim

[Marky Mark]

I hard tr Vasex for pushing likely scum fmpov. So unless I've been pocketed I'm not voting this.

VOTE: Vasex

Its fine T3! Just follow his lead then.

VOTE: Vasex

oop
VOTE: vasex

UNVOTE: vasex
e-3

T3 can you please articulate the thought process behind you going from Town!Vasex to voting him to unvoting him in such a short window? I just don't see how this makes any sense for you as either alignment

[Marky Mark]

A50 please can you vote for someone? You coasted through the Bending mini way too easily as scum by fencesitting and I'm still scarred

--pedit good timing - you can do it while you're here

[Marky Mark]

Night all! Always a pleasure with you lot, never a chore

[Marky Mark]

A50 please can you vote for someone? You coasted through the Bending mini way too easily as scum by fencesitting and I'm still scarred

--pedit good timing - you can do it while you're here

I don't have any scum reads though. I would rather have my vote handy in case someone needed to be put @E-1 to claim and/or was already on E-1 and needed to be hammered.

[Marky Mark]

samantha and etine both look the worst here if we want to assume all these wagons are town except the etine one.

I mean assuming Etine wagon was the only one on scum is a mahoosive logical step to take, which kinda undermines this

[Marky Mark]

I thought vasex claimed scum with the self vote.

i should be the towniest player with 5 hundred of messages per day.
if people dont believe me (and mathematically there are townies among people who vote me), these people either have some problems with reading the other players because of huge lack of experience maybe, or i was doing smth very wrong (and most of voters are against t3)... and your most strange and rather unexpactable vote to me after hard townreading is a good answer to this question, good clue.
if this is just your stupid mistake for the cop, well you deserve to pay for it. i've never seen a cop who betrays his hard town so fast, unbelievable. they need all possible support, especially in your situation, they should be afraid to elim townie. you lied about smth - about your role, or about townreading me hard. you easy found a reason to vote me, with having some fun, joking and absolutely relaxed about that. i dont believe your reaction in #2375

btw please remind your role, what is it? could you claim that again in loud? you was avoiding this discussion, for example about 2-nights and 2-shots

1. Post volume != towniness

2. Trying to suggest that people voting you are mistaken and its due to a lack of experience is a slimy way of undermining those slots

3. I've said this before elsewhere but mid-late D1 you've set stuff that has repeatedly stretched or bent the truth, which just doesn't seem to be coming from a place of town:

-The defence of T3 for pushing Enchant over Kitty (eg 1125/1126) and insinuating that the Kitty wagon was clearly not viable by that point, when in reality a single player had unvoted (Dunn)

-The whole false bravado in 1281 of asking whether it was possible to elim both Kitty/T3, while making it clear that he did not want a T3 elim. Why not just elim Kitty first?

-2196 calling kitty out for agreeing to investigate someone that they were not SRing, when it was clearly because town had asked them to do it as a leash

-Implying in 2312 that you voted Cabd and loudly called for his elim to make people *not* want to elim him

[Marky Mark]

I appreciate this is all stuff that you've tried to explain your reasoning for elsewhere, I'm just trying to put together the reasons I'm voting you coherently in response to your post shading people who are voting you to show that there are some pretty good reasons IMO

[Marky Mark]

Mark, you can choose:
1. You dont know how to find townies.
2. You are a scum.

Naked personal attack to undermine me rather than refuting any of my points. Nice.

[Marky Mark]

Btw i noticed that ndmath post only 1 post per day, is it ok for him?

I've only played against scum!him before and he was like that in that game (the Bending mini)

[Marky Mark]

Sidenote - we are getting moderately close to deadline

My POE:
Ideal: Vasex/T3/NDMath
Would take as a compromise Lim: Ana/Bloodhail
Break glass if things are getting really desperate: A50/Cabd

[Marky Mark]

You are entitled to read my slot however you want to.

Threatening to SR me for pushing your slot is not gonna make me back down and has clear scum motives.

[Marky Mark]

I guess we are at an impasse. The others can make their own minds up whether the behaviours I have summed up in 2577 make sense.

[Marky Mark]

scum!Koba played the "I'm not going to interact with you" card on me in Bending to de-legitimise my (correct) push on her D1, so I am wary of it as a scum tactic but we'll see how this plays out.

[Marky Mark]

scum!Koba played the "I'm not going to interact with you" card on me in Bending to de-legitimise my (correct) push on her D1, so I am wary of it as a scum tactic but we'll see how this plays out.

are you either currently pushing on me or not getting interacted with right now?

I think my play here has vastly departed similarity with that game atp.

It was Vasex that was doing it, I was just using your play in that game as an example

[Marky Mark]

We got so many claims that we probably should ask everyone to pick either Cabd or Enchant as claimed VT. It would at least prevent another role reveals and keep non revealed PR more save.

I mean forcing that plist into an artificial choice between two slots does feel like something scum would do

[Marky Mark]

I honestly thought the Enchant self-vote was less bad than the vasex one, coming as it did under less pressure

[Marky Mark]

I'm not a massive fan of voting bloodhail here as an elim on them wouldn't give us that much info. Better to have the claimed cops target them tbqh

[Marky Mark]

pretty sure vasex is town guy is obviously passionate about trying to solve the game, i think ur caught up on him acting weird but his explanation for what he did makes sense to me

I mean that was my initial take on the slot, particularly when it was trying to wagon Kitty hard early D1 but the slot has been much more scattergun mid-late d1 and the logical inconsistencies keep popping up

[Marky Mark]

pretty sure vasex is town guy is obviously passionate about trying to solve the game, i think ur caught up on him acting weird but his explanation for what he did makes sense to me

I mean that was my initial take on the slot, particularly when it was trying to wagon Kitty hard early D1 but the slot has been much more scattergun mid-late d1 and the logical inconsistencies keep popping up

is being scattergun scummy?

Clearly its a nuanced area, but pushing at various targets to find a point of least resistance is, yeah.

[Marky Mark]

@Bloodhail, see my previous post about the inconsistencies in his positions, eg pushing cabd and yelling for his elim and then retrospectively saying that he didn't want to see cabd elimed. Some of the pushing feels like it is being done in bad faith

[Marky Mark]

Mark what do u think of Enchant?

Great question, imma be completely honest and say that its not a slot I've been particularly tuned into this game (holding an accurate mental picture of 20 other slots simultaneously is beyond my mental juggling abiliities)

[Marky Mark]

They haven't been a slot that has pinged me massively either way this game. Their self-vote felt like it had a good chance of being frustrated town. I disagree with them insofar as I think Cabd's reaction to the fake hammer was NAI, but their train of thought on it seems consistent

[Marky Mark]

Like I wouldn't be crying if we limmed Enchant today but I would peg them as null for me personally and I think we can do better

[Marky Mark]

Like I wouldn't be crying if we limmed Enchant today but I would peg them as null for me personally and I think we can do better

who r yr scumreads outside of vasex

Sidenote - we are getting moderately close to deadline

My POE:
Ideal: Vasex/T3/NDMath
Would take as a compromise Lim: Ana/Bloodhail
Break glass if things are getting really desperate: A50/Cabd

The fakeclaim from T3 didn't sit well with me, I just don't think it makes sense as a town!cop gambit when you consider that the consensus was that Kitty was going to be leashed until D2 and then elimed anyway by that point. I also saw 0 instances of "N1/N2" cop as opposed to X shot cop in the normals archive, which I appreciate is speculation but feels like a potential slip. I was also not a massive fan of some of their votes late D1

As for NDMath, it was their actions and votes not marrying up with their words. I've explained this probably more eloquently in my ISO but for example there is a post where they say they SR two of the key wagons that were going on at the time (was Kitty and one other that escapes my mind atm) but then voted Samantha

[Marky Mark]

if enchant is scum, it casts great shadow on dgb and mark

Because I nullread that slot?

[Marky Mark]

Anyways, that is enough fun for one night. I'll have a look at things tomorrow and try to consolidate my vote onto a feasible wagon that has some town consensus

[Marky Mark]

I mean I'm just being real with you Vasex. There are slots that I have a tighter handle on than others

[Marky Mark]

Right the Cabd V/LA problem can be presumably sorted by asking the mod for a replacement (or at least we can ask). Taking a month off is not reasonable. This should be the natural reaction to a slot that isn't playing the game ahead of trying to make the problem going away via elim -> @Bulge please can you prod/replace him?

NDMath's last post wasn't great but we can revisit this D2 as he's not looking like a feasible elim at this point d1. Likewise, if A50 refuses to vote and take a position I strongly recommend that a claimed cop targets him tonight and we press him more D2.

[Marky Mark]

Ok, lets check who is a scum in Anastasia-Cabd.
I also found the question, that cabd didnt answer to me even after repeating - who is most strange to him among his voters. And his vla till june is so so bad. If windows is so sure now in cabd instead of enchant , lets elim cabd, he is useless.

But if he flips town - Anastasia is scum. And Enchant with huge percents too.

I still dont believe enchant wasnt trying to kill his townie (it was a question of seconds if smb would help him to finish cabd, people dont do this with tgeir townies), but cabd also did nothing to get my support. And during this conversation now i liked the argument that if cabd is so pro player, who shouldnt be mistaked by fakehammering, he was playing before the hammer like he was expecting a hammer, he SHOWED that, this can be a tactic really, if he is so pro. Though there is one serious problem with that - if even the Bulge made a mistake, why cabd couldnt make a mistake too?

VOTE: Cabd

This feels like setting up for a chain miselim on Ana/Enchant. It's double standards -> you are trying to implicate other slots voting him if he flips green while washing your own hands of responsibility for voting him.

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: T3

This is where I think we need to go now. I'd prefer Vasex or NDMath as the consequences are less bad if I'm wrong in terms of losing a PR, but I still think we have a good chance of hitting scum here and we have the votes to make it work.

[Marky Mark]

Where are you guys getting that cabd is v/la till june? vc just says he's vla amd I not getting something?

Others have mentioned it elsewhere in the thread so I just assumed it was a thing

[Marky Mark]

goodposting from ana btw recently in unpicking the Enchant "evidence" that Vasex was pushing.

[Marky Mark]

T3, are you specifically a N1/N2 cop or does your role PM state that you are a 2 shot cop?

[Marky Mark]

Quick public service announcement from me - I'm just about to go to work and have cricket on this evening, so don't expect much from me before Friday. I've only read the flip.

[Marky Mark]

Hey all, just finished work for the weekend. Thursdays are always pretty hectic for me, so I now have 30ish pages to try and digest since daystart.

Gut feels prior to reading up properly are that Vasex/Ana may well both be scum. Vasex's defending T3 for most of D1 while trying to give off vibes that he was ok with limming him (eg that post where he asks about double-limming kitty and t3) looks even scummier than before after the T3 flip and Ana's posts ref Kitty/T3 both being town now also look like scum trying to protect T3 while realising that if they push kitty and kitty flips green then they will have incriminated their own buddy.

I reckon there was decent momentum behind the T3 wagon once DGB and I had moved our votes there, so I would not be surpised to see 1+ scum bussing on the later votes

[Marky Mark]

About 10 or so. I played a handful in 2014 and then came back late 2020 when the pandemic limited my lesiure time options

[Marky Mark]

I'm getting caught up and the nero push on andres looks pretty baseless. Andres played a major part in bringing T3 back into the limelight late D1 after previous T3 wagons have died off. If he is scum then he is deepwolfing hard, but he has literally just played a major part in bringing down a scum PR. The argument in particular that he wasn't on the wagon is v flimsy when he helped the wagon to be a thing in the first place.

[Marky Mark]

Reads:
Hard town: Marky Mark, Rathe
Town: Nero Cain
Lean town: NDMath, WindowsXP, dcl, Anya, DeathNote
Null: Vasex, Kerset, samantha, STD, DGB, Dunnstral, Arte, Andres
Lean scum: Enchant, Cabd
Scum: KittyTacky, Etine

Most of my null reads are basically people who haven't donr anything.

This is worth coming back to in light of the flip. I know I'm town so from my POV I'd be willing to bet he'd have a partner as one of his TRs and Nero seems more likely than Rathe

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Vasex

This is still the smoking gun though. The defence of T3 D1 until the meomentum was too far gone against T3 and the reaching towards the end of D1 still comes from scum IMO.


--pedit Good to be on the same page

[Marky Mark]

So I feel a bit silly, but I went back to look at Ana's ISO to see how they went from TRing T3 to voting them. Turns out it was Anya who voted T3 8/11 not Ana.

[Marky Mark]

I did think it was a bit weird that they went from TRing a slot to jumping on their wagon at day end

[Marky Mark]

Vasex are you having a laugh mate. Andre literally brought back the idea of a T3 wagon after it had pretty much died. Yeah, he then went on to vote you (also probably scum IMO) when there didn't seem to be much desire for a T3 wagon at the time, but that's just being pragmatic at day-end

[Marky Mark]

As for Cabd, I thought that you thought that Cabd had been hammered after the Enchant fake hammer and the unvote was in response to that. At any rate, I find your point that you voted for cabd and loudly asked for his elim as a means to PREVENT his elim by reverse psychology to be dubious at best

[Marky Mark]

I haven't recently TRed them??!? Their play has generally been towny in terms of tone and their logic checking out, except for their late post d1 ref not voting T3 out of principle, which has been well discussed. Overall null given the late defence of T3.

[Marky Mark]

Well thanks for telling me how I'm allowed to vote Vasex. I'll be sure to make a note of that and then move on with my life.

[Marky Mark]

Ref XP it was just their general posting style content rather than any specific gold-plated posts. It feels very different to where they were scum in Bending, although I realise they are good enough to change their scum style up.

[Marky Mark]

Mate this is a straight up discredit attempt. Try harder please.

[Marky Mark]

If people aren't voting vasex rn then look at his interactions with T3 d1 and then tell me I'm wrong.

[Marky Mark]

You have no experience. If he was repeating after me everything against kitty it doesnt make us partners. Moreover i turn against him after his betrayal and attempt to elim me. You have nothing serious against me, Mark. Time to wake up.

Thanks for sharing your opinion with us. I was right d1 when you tried to tell me I was wrong about T3. I reckon I've got a a good chance of being right today too about you

[Marky Mark]

Mark did you read d2?

I did a quick skim. Some of the andres/nero stuff was noteworthy and I noted how nero tried to defend Vasex too in 3269

T3/Nero/Vasex/Maybe Ana/+1 for the solve?

[Marky Mark]

Well, Nero has made this pretty baseless push on Andres as previously explained and although Ana did TR T3 d1, she didn't pull the sort of thing off you did with the weird double-elim stuff, or have the same associatives with that slot. Also, your slot has been reaching more generally eg consider some of you pushing kitty eg when you pushed them for agreeing to investigate the person they'd been told to leash

[Marky Mark]

It might sound ridiculous but whatever i will say it. Mark appearance looks like setup to derail me from STD. Mark words sound exactly like my words about vasex and yet he didn't notice it or what? This is such coincidence that he pushes my second call right after ana said that she follows my vote. This timing is just...

Yes mate, its definitely that and not that I was busy yesterday and had work today, preventing me posting till this evening.

[Marky Mark]

Is your case on STD largely their involvement in the cabd wagon or is there more to it than that? I skimmed the last 30 pages or so, so I may have missed some nuance

[Marky Mark]

Thanks for explaining kerset, I'll give that a mull over

[Marky Mark]

lol mark.

you know how XP is arguing that not everyone that defended T3 is scum? The inverse of that argument is that not everyone that called t3 scum is town. Yelling that t3 is scum and then not voting there when it matters makes perfect sense as bussing/distancing from a scum buddy. Why are you refusing to consider this?

Yeah, obviously scum can and do bus.

There's a big difference between bussing a partner whose wagon looks like it is gonna go through anyways and starting the wagon in the first place.

[Marky Mark]

Eg contrast :
A.) Vasex defending T3 all day and then voting him at dayend when his wagon was gaining too much momentum to be stopped
and
B.) Andres yelling hard for the lim of T3 after the previous T3 wagon had died off and starting off the wagon that led to T3's elim. Andres might have voted elsewhere inbetween to try and compromise at dayend and get something through, but he was a key architect of that wagon.

Big difference between voting for towncred when your partner is gonna die anyways and being the one to orchestrate an elim on your partner.

[Marky Mark]

Please refrain from personal attacks designed to discredit me as a player Vasex. You're better than this.

[Marky Mark]

but he was a key architect of that wagon.

This is not truth
He provided no good reasons to elim t3
He was just a noise
Good reasons were provided by enchant and kerset

I’m going to be honest. I’m completely embarrassed we’re not executing T3. They’re so obviously Scum the claim really shouldn’t be saving them.

Look at 935, 969, 971, and tell me that’s the reaction of a player that has seen someone claim their role and is certain they’re Scum. Look this is my way of thinking about it, and it’s possible it’s coloring my view, but here it goes. I’m proud of games where I pick out 2/3 of the Team or something, or make one solid play that sets my team up. That’s what I live for. I don’t think of myself as strong enough or perceptive enough to provide complete solves, or absolutely murder all of the Scum, or mechanically provide perfect answers. So when presented with the opportunity to sacrifice myself for the execution of sure Scum, I take it. If a player claims my role under pressure and I’m suspecting them, I would out and bury them. No questions asked. And in a game this large, the fact that you make yourself such an obvious target means that there’s all kinds of information that could come out if. T3 is

not

acting this way at all. Instead of clearly pushing Kitty who is rapidly losing momentum, and provide either a claim, strong reasoning, or a laser focus, they switch to Enchant, claiming they Scum slipped. Not only is their play incredibly Scummy on its own - the Claim, and the immediate reaction, are spectacularly hard to believe.

Look, I’m fine with looking past the claim. At the end of the day my vote isn’t there. But I want to be crystal clear - T3 should get executed tomorrow. And I’m certain they’ll be around to tell us about their “check”.

[Marky Mark]

How do you know that he's stepping back under pressure rather than just being low activity as he was throughout d1? Genuine question.

[Marky Mark]

This is not good reasoning, mark. T3 tried to elim kitty, firstly with vote, than he even claimed bp just to kill kitty with any cost. Only then when it became obvious that players will give kitty one night, he started voting his second target enchant.
Though i still has some doubts about this. I think it is still possible that there was his partner between kitty and enchant, but the possibility is low

I mean you were pushing Kitty/Enchant too :S

[Marky Mark]

How do you know that he's stepping back under pressure rather than just being low activity as he was throughout d1? Genuine question.

Because he is too confident about his susps, while he is not reading everything and just promises to do it again and again, he is trying to push his ideas to people. Comparing with a50 for example: he just doesnt give a fuck about previous pages.

He does seem very confident in his suspicions, that is true.

[Marky Mark]

And he was confident that im wrong about kitty and enchant. So it makes 3 townies and 1 scum Andre. I think he understood his fail in that moment.

You've got it backwards - it makes you/nero look scummy and Andre look towny. Enchant also looks towny as a byproduct of their wagon being a rival to the wagon that went through against scum T3.

[Marky Mark]

IF Nero flips town then yes clearly people that were pushing Nero will look scummier by association, but tbqh Andres and XP's reasons for pushing Nero make sense.

[Marky Mark]

yeah, IN FACT Andre missed BOTH huge wagons on t3 on the day one
not 1 wagon, but 2 wagons. his screaming about t3 was only between wagons. and this doesnt help to gain t3 votes at all. t3 started again to collect votes after fail attempt to elim me (his hard town), then after enchant-kerset's case against t3
so i still have a question about Mark
is it bad play or is it scum play?
help me to understand

Right so you reckon that Andre is scum who lurked hard and then just came out of lurking to push his scum PR buddy at the end of the day when several other viable wagons were available?