Umlaut's Mini Normal Review, May 2021

[Isis]

Cop, gunsmith,neap for the joat might be balanced on average for the whole thing but if we are only working with one slot it's hella swingy

[Isis]

Maybe add enabler to the Joat and put some sweet power role on the neighborizer

[Isis]

It's to ensure the death of the Encryptor feels impactful I think

[Isis]

You can decide you want to prove to any trackers that you are not scum unless you are multitasking but then spam the ability on your night one target so scum don't learn the setup of you are not roaming

[Isis]

Watchers, not trackers

[Isis]

It seems like a likely addition to the list of "PR play literally nobody is doing in the normal queue except Isis"

[Isis]

I also missed that old school Encryptor interaction.

I think maybe the setup is already fine then kinda scumsided but I like scumsided.

[Isis]

Yeah there has to be one scum left or it could be applied to theories where you are teamed with someone else confirmed to have acted

[Isis]

Can we make the roleblocker a Rolestopper and the watcher a gunsmith so the setup has similar balance but less bullshit.

[Isis]

Kinda nice with the follower interaction too

[Isis]

Rolestopper lets the town kill the joat if the joat is flat good at mafia.and getting docced. It lets the mafia send their favorite scum to lategame rather than send any scum to lategame based on guessing PRs and that seems kinda good when there's multiple roles that can investigate the encryptor but the encryptor might be the best player


It does feel kind of bad if the neighborizer shoots for town and the guilty happens.

[Isis]

Oh btw gunsmith is diff from cop in this setup because it feels less confident about its inno on loyal doc

[Isis]

Make the neighborizer a combined neighborizer strongmanfinder? That's fun

[Isis]

It's the kind of red herring that's never harmful

[Isis]

Rolestopper lets the town kill the joat if the joat is flat good at mafia.and getting docced.

?

The classic "inversion of the words scum and town" logic error.

Rolestopper lets the mafia guarantee a successful kill on a JOAT who is also solving without determining who the doctor is

[Isis]

Make the neighborizer a combined neighborizer strongmanfinder? That's fun

Not a bad fix, though I think informed neighborizer (there is a mafia encryptor) is probably a more straightforward way to accomplish the same thing.

Where is your sense of whimsy and love of magick

[Isis]

Ohh

Yeah I've used personal Rolestopper like twice now and reprogrammed my brain

Roleblocker is fine then whatever that was definitely the less important change (the more important change was that I think I telegraphed watchers are pretty bullshit)

[Isis]

Where is your sense of whimsy and love of magick

I think there's a lot of fun design to be done without deliberately deceiving the players, considering this is the queue to which people come to avoid curveballs.

X amount of curveballs is necessary, my mindset is that I've recently read complaints from TM about PP's (essentially normal) setup being easily guessable

If some amount of curveballs are desirable, ones that don't change optimal PR play at all but make the setup harder to guess are very desirable

[Isis]

It doesn't really matter if it's roaming because once they think they can find scum they will roam anyway

However that might be false if I don't understand the interaction between roleblocks and roaming properly

[Isis]

I think that looks right

I doubt S_S has run out of opinions about the prudence of Don Quixote Strongman finders

[Isis]

Why is the site like this

Why is that even a thing that can happen

[Isis]

Why is the site like this

Why is that even a thing that can happen

[Isis]

We are getting roaming for complexity cost it's good to trim some of the defensible-but-not-essential elements that are adding the last few bits of complexity

[Isis]

*gutting

[Isis]

this isn't actually that conservative, it's 3 power roles that can get some kind of guilty or innocent and the setup spec should be pretty strong even with the red herring. It's not that much more red tinged than where most people would land. I think.

S_S can serve as an opinion he's a lot more generous to town than me I think

[Isis]

the clearing the doc part isn't really swing when part of calling this "balanced" is predicated on the loyal doctor speccing town more often than it doesn't, so actually demonstrating loyal just kind of locks in expected advantage.

It is strong for a doctor to get an extra elimination but the alternative is doctors that don't actually do all that much because they die, then their clear dies, then the game's on evens and there's no extra elim.

It's some amount of swing but it's a relentless pursuit of ideals beyond what I would want to go for, not every setup can be A Normal Roguelike (maybe you will tell me that is high swing too, idk)

I think this is pretty fine, the main post game criticism I remember from games I reviewed recently is frustrating with protectives so I don't want to turn a vig pacifist really.

[Isis]

It would probably be better if there were another way to block a kill. Umlaut's 2-shot commuter isn't a terrible idea, or maybe just a 1-shot bulletproof. That way at least we can balance around the extra execution being likely instead of being uncertain.

I really don't like the kinds of things that happen if you add another PR to a setup like this. This is a setup with an investigative slot that is "basically sane cop" and I'm hesitant to have large numbers of PRs in addition to that slot in those setups because in the outcomes where they are specced correctly (which people will somehow some percentage of the time do even if it's a fruit vendor, a hirsute and a beloved princess alongside a scum fakeclaimed tracker) there can be a massive amount of protwn material at a relatively early point if that's stacked onto a couple of clears and the setup spec for the sane cop itself.

I'd be ok with the doctor's first two slots being jails or aliens though I guess

[Isis]

Follower PM looks fine

[Isis]

Since S_S's objection was about swing and not balance and I feel like it's bikeshedding to resolve it I'm gonna approve over the objection.

[Isis]

reviewed the pms, the new ones are better. Will wait for S_S to look at PMs then this should be done

[Isis]

I prefer you design wincons so that there's no possibility of draws, but I'm not feeling as whiny about it as usual

[Isis]

I tend to prefer to see a faction declared the winner.

I will probably take flak for causing the setup to leak if you use these wincons exactly, since I wouldn't have complained if there was no vig creating the remote possibility of draws.

You could just use the win condition you were using before and put something in your ruleset that resolves happily ever and incidentally resolves scorched earth if you like draws. This setup has a 4p happily ever after possibility anyway.

I tend to prefer to pick a faction to be the winner when everybody dies (I usually pick scum but town would be equally fine). It's zero sum.

[Isis]

If the game ends or reaches Happily Ever After with neither win condition met, it will be considered a draw.

[Isis]

Would you be fine with that as a revision to your third bullet?

[Isis]

Alright, everything is passed now