Mini Normal 2211 || Summer Meet [Endgame]

[InsidiousLemons]

whats up who wants to cuddle and eat fruit?

sorry i only eat crab dip and fries

VOTE: osuka

because i'm not over it yet

[InsidiousLemons]

father

[InsidiousLemons]

hi andante hi anya hi t3

[InsidiousLemons]

Hi lemons!!! Would you like some lemonade?

no thanks cannibals tea party is still in signups

[InsidiousLemons]

AYYYY WAIT this is a lot of the people from our last game!! omg this is gonna be great... unless vacation turns into a murder mystery

idea: forum mafia but instead of a game of murder and deception everyone gets to hang out and post and no one has to die

wait thats just a forum

[InsidiousLemons]

maybe they can't talk and have to use the vulnerability of public communication

nah

I can guarantee the following:
[...]

• Any PT will have
  daytalk.

[InsidiousLemons]

anya you should probably read the first post a lil more thoroughly

[InsidiousLemons]

whats up who wants to cuddle and eat fruit?

sorry i only eat crab dip and fries

VOTE: osuka

because i'm not over it yet

what, youre not over how soft and comfy my pocket is?

im going to pick you up and throw you

p-edit ok deal

[InsidiousLemons]

anya has said some weird shit like, a couple times now

in the one other game i played with her she wasn't so wanton with her accusations and theory crafting right out the gate. she was scum that game. it's early, but i wonder if this might indicate that she feels she has less to lose this game.

68 is a little weird because it kind of implies that even after a year on the site, anya doesn't know there's a standard list of normal roles, but it doesn't feel

that

out of character for her. for the record, the day modifier

is

considered normal on MS, provided the role that it applies to is also considered normal.

52, on the other hand, is just bad. anya is a competent and capable scum player and should be treated as such. i am wary of attempts to disarm like this.

[InsidiousLemons]

Bug do you think that Choof and lemons are inherently towny for this?

i think trying to push the game out of stagnant states is something scum are usually very reluctant to do. in theory a scuim

could

do it for wifom reasons but considering that is just forcefeeding myself poisoned wine

huh? being among the first to make a serious post is one of the easiest ways to gain towncred as scum. do you really believe what you're saying here?

for the record, the day modifier is considered normal on MS, provided the role that it ap plies to is also considered normal.

I would be really surprised if this is true. What's your source?

ivyeo already covered this, but i was wrong -- i only looked at the "explicitly not normal" modifier list because i thought the guidelines operated on a blacklist system rather than a whitelist. the whitelist makes a lot more sense

129 is bad and 137 is worse

VOTE: choof

[InsidiousLemons]

like yeah if the gamestate is stagnant 2 hours from deadline D2 scum probably aren't gonna try and get the ball rolling but there is zero risk straight out of RVS

[InsidiousLemons]

like yeah if the gamestate is stagnant 2 hours from deadline D2 scum probably aren't gonna try and get the ball rolling but there is zero risk straight out of RVS

lmao what? it's d1

141 was a continuation of my reply to bugspray in 140. apologies for not making that clear

hot take: VOTE: Ivyeo

serious vote btw

why

p-edit why²

[InsidiousLemons]

You commented on a bunch of lines, I wanted the tldr recap not "here's my thoughts on a bunch of lines"

i am once again begging you to not automatically ignore and refuse to reread posts that cannot be read in <30 seconds
choof's posts on anya are not nearly long enough to merit a tldr

[InsidiousLemons]

52 is a joke and so is this post

it's a joke with a purpose, i believe that. i've seen scum attempt to subtly characterize themselves as harmless and simple-minded very often, and i know that anya does not fit that description

choof is looking more town to me. i reread a bit and i don't think 102 is that bad. while i do disagree with the content of the post, i don't necessarily think it indicates a scum mindset. the anya vote that had to be prompted sucks, but choof has been making consistent attempts to engage and provoke discussion or argument, and that's enough for me to think my vote is better used elsewhere for the time being.

127 is a good post from umlaut. his others don't ping for me either, so townlean for now.

anya null so far but this does look similar to her scumplay last game. she's posting very safely

andante's arguments are lacklustre but her mindset feels similar to her townplay last game. i don't see a reason to believe this is scum yet, although i question why she preferred anya as town over ivy on page ~7

@andante can you point to any specific posts from anya that you think are town

T3 is a woefully unengaged player because he's stretched himself too thin signing up for almost every game on the site. i'm not really sure how to fix this because even running him up last game didn't convince him to try very hard

the people ragging on osuka for being impolite have a big storm coming. that said, osuka is using the same gadfly strategy he used last game, popping in to aggravate and prod without fleshing out any particular push very substantially. i don't like it

@anya what brings about your townread on T3?

@mod can we get a vc

VOTE: osuka

p-edit well that's a shame.

[InsidiousLemons]

T4 hadn't posted yet apples

why did choof replace out on principle? i feel like i'm missing the prose

oh lol

and yeah our buddy oscar has that effect on ppl idk why

[InsidiousLemons]

vibe check:
Anya - scum read x2
bugspray - town read
T3 -
Andante - scum read
geraintm -
Ivyeo -
Egix96 -
osuka - scum read
choof -
Dunnstral - town read
InsidiousLemons -
Umlaut - town read

For now, I want everyone to declare what they're doing and what their motive is. I'll go first.

Right now, I don't think there's enough information to go divide the town into two wagons, but I also want everyone to use their votes and see where the game state leads. I'm also trying to be more familiar with everybody right now. Anya feels like scum trying to look like town, while also the player who looks like they're playing a scum wincon the most. I got this vibe from bringing up town roles so early in a very fishy way "for reaction", and how she's been using RVS information so far.

Ask me anything.

what are your TRs of dunnstral and bugspray based on? what is your SR of andante based on?

my action is posting in the thread and my motive is trying to find scum, and if that wasn't what i was doing i sure as hell wouldn't admit it. what are you trying to accomplish with this question?

[InsidiousLemons]

if it's not a scum post, it was a town post. she can be town for now.

this is a terrible way to play mafia.

there are only three ways to read posts. scum, town, or either. if it's not a scum post, it's a town post. but agree to disagree.

this argument doesn't even follow. if it's not a town post there are still, by your own admission, two options left: null and scum. thinking in such binary terms as "if a post isn't explicitly town AI then it is necessarily scum AI" will get us nowhere

[InsidiousLemons]

ivy leaning town

hem are you even capable of townreading me

well i don't like this one bit

[InsidiousLemons]

You commented on a bunch of lines, I wanted the tldr recap not "here's my thoughts on a bunch of lines"

i am once again begging you to not automatically ignore and refuse to reread posts that cannot be read in <30 seconds
choof's posts on anya are not nearly long enough to merit a tldr

I mean, I think Anya is a million times better than Ivy, soooo

@andante can you point to any specific posts from anya that you think are town

I need time for my Anya read honestly, I would have bet on Anya flipping town last game, so I'm honestly just a little lost on her right now, once I'm caught up I'll re iso her, but she tricked me so good last game....

yeah no this isn't going to fly. there was a reason you said that anya was "a million times" better than ivy, and i want to know what it was. last game you also had a history of stating reads emphatically and then retracting them, and i'm not going to let it happen again

[InsidiousLemons]

Like, I am voting and all...
But there i nothing to go on during day 1 so you'll just have to wait till votes nd flips are for more substantial from me.

this is a terrible way to play mafia.

[InsidiousLemons]

Can someone tell me if it's typical for Andante to have nearly twice as many posts as anyone else in the game? In my experience that can be a stronger towntell then most people give it credit for but it depends on the player.

i can tell you that she was a very prolific poster in the one game we played together, in which she was indeed town. had a skim through her meta to see if that applies to her other games as well, but she sadly has no scum meta as of yet. she's less vocal in her other games, but they're all newbies except for the one we played, so it's hard to say. for what it's worth, this andante feels quite a lot like the one from the previous game to me.

re: 311 and andante's reaction to it: it may just be me, but i didn't find 311 particularly AI on first read, either -- monkey calling it town caught me off guard, and it was only upon going back and rereading that i understood what felt town about it. andante's medium of origin is chat mafia, so she tends to have a very post-by-post playstyle. she also tends to read posts at face value. i can see this criticism of 311 and 312 coming from a town!andante who just didn't bother to analyze why someone might find 311 towny. i don't think this is very strong evidence one way or the other, but that's my 2 cents.

@other rotitgbsmod veterans in the thread, feel free to chime in as i'd quite like to hear your thoughts on andante's playstyle this game as compared to last.

town points to monkey for catching subtle (or subtle to me, anyway) towniness in 311 that i didn't at first. scum points for... most of his other posts.

[InsidiousLemons]

@everyone side note can we make a point of writing out andante's full name when referring to her? having an "anda" and an "anya" is going to give me even more of a headache than last game, when we also had an "andres"

[InsidiousLemons]

@other rotitgbsmod veterans in the thread, feel free to chime in as i'd quite like to hear your thoughts on andante's playstyle this game as compared to last.

I'd like you to know, I am town

slightly different to the question, and the main reason I wanted to say something, but to me Anya feels exactly the same as rotitgbsm, I skimmed posts by Anya and they all literally have this feel so idk on her. In my opinion osuka is less hostile this game, but made someone leave, and you feel the exact same so far, so I don't think my meta reading skills are reliable at all


And yes sorry I tend to post a lot, I can try and condense stuff, but every game I play I tend to have the highest post count

i don't think we can depend on choof's replacing out as an indicator of osuka's hostility. but you're right that he seems less aggressive this game, and now that i think of it i actually recall andres saying that scum!osuka in rotitgbsmod seemed especially aggressive as compared with town!osuka from a previous game. something to keep in mind.

re: anya, i've had a look at her meta and she's fairly consistently Like This, even as town. compare with her townplay in games such as mini normal 2201 and electoral college mafia. she even self-votes in both games. do you get similar vibes from those games as in this one and rotitgbsmod, andante?

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: Datisi

that's L1

lol

[InsidiousLemons]

hi cook can you please give us a vote count

[InsidiousLemons]

i can only speak for myself, but it would be nice to have them every 2-3 pages max. putting them on pagetops helps a lot.

[InsidiousLemons]

okay SO searching T3's vast ISO of 8 posts for reads and/or opinions we find:

Spoiler: intrepid sleuthing

Egix and choof giving good vibes.

egix96

and

choof

(replaced by

humaneatingmonkey

) - townlean

Andnte'sread on Ivy feels as forced as putting a squre peg into a round hole.
Umlaut town.

andante

- scumlean (?)

umlaut

- town

The later additions to this readlist almost feel made to appease. And the "Andante looks like a wrong towny" is newbscum deflection. VOTE: Ivyeo

Ivyeo

(who has been on the site for 6 months longer than T3) - newbscum

I don't see a scum gerain just openly saying this.

I think Andante is town based on the general meta vibes.

gerain

- townlean (?)

andante again

- town now "based on the general meta vibes" and also because

You seem less confident and more argumentative and that I think aligns with town you.

hm.

and finally:

lemons hardcore townposting, conftown
hem can be townish for now

Explain? I hve hem as lean tow n and am not sure about lemons.

monkey

(post-replacement) - still townlean

lemons

- null

phew! what a journey. organizing this into a reads list, we get:

Umlaut

- town

Andante

- townlean

geraintm

- townlean

Egix96

- townlean

humaneatingmonkey

- townlean

InsidiousLemons

- null

Ivyeo

- scum

bugspray

- unspecified

Anya

- unspecified

osuka

- unspecified

Dunnstral

- unspecified

@T3 do you agree with the list as it appears here? have any of your reads changed or become clearer since you first made them? please interact with this game or any of the players this is really sad

[InsidiousLemons]

lmao Lemons complaining that T3 isn't interacting with the game but had enough content in 8 posts to organize a readlist. surely, you understand the irony.

but he isn't interacting with the game. few if any of his posts contain attempts to engage directly with or question another player. calling any of what ive quoted above "content" is a gross overstatement. his posts are one-liner, hands-off observations, exclusively. he has provided almost no justification for any of his reads. he has yet to respond to a question asked of him, other than to "clarify" his read on andante.

so no, i don't really understand the irony

[InsidiousLemons]

the options aren't town, scum, and null. it's town, scum, and either. if it's not scum, then it can't be either. thus it can only be town.
i'm not talking about player alignment, i'm talking about reading posts. i understand it's too early to conftown someone.

you're assuming that "not explicitly scummy" equals "explicitly not scummy". you can not think a post is scummy and also not think it's towny. this really isn't that hard

anyway i don't think this is really a debate that needs to be continued, it's just weird to me that you're trying to sort every post as either overtly scum or, if not overtly scum, then overtly town.

do you think T3 could be scum?

it's certainly not out of the question, but i think you may be misunderstanding my motivation for making the post directed at him. last game he ended up as what was essentially a policy lim D2, because he simply did not give us anything to go off of and refused to even try to stay responsive or invested in the game. i'm trying to avoid a repeat by pressuring him to start engaging in meaningful discussion early.

[InsidiousLemons]

Why is the above directed at T3 and not me?

see above. i have history with T3 and i'm trying to avoid a specific scenario where he does fuck all for 30 pages and then flips VT.

your post history also feels much more organic than T3's. you posted a few times early game, vanished for a few pages, now you're back. your ISO is skinny, but what's there is at least somewhat intentional. T3's posts, on the other hand, are very evenly spread out through the game, and seem to have been made with the goal of having posted something rather than scumhunting or applying pressure. he said his goal this game was "to read" for god's sake. if that's not a reason to try and get some content out of him then i don't know what is.

don't get me wrong though. i do want to hear more from you. do you have any substantive reads or takes on what's happened in the time you've been gone, apart from what you've mentioned just now?

p-edit top FoS's right now are you, osuka, bugspray and gerain, in no particular order. i haven't switched off of osuka yet because there's still not been a vote count and i'm wary of changing when i have no idea what the totals are. that being said, i hardly think i'll kill you if i

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

[InsidiousLemons]

can you point to anything in anya's gameplay that makes her scum? are you still happy with your vote on ivy?

[InsidiousLemons]

so with these in no particular order, why choose me and why have you spent most of your time on T3?

because i feel i have the least information on T3. and just because i didn't put them in a specific order doesn't mean i don't have preferences within the list. i feel my vote is best on you right now, it's as simple as that

[InsidiousLemons]

see 393 and 395 for more on why i'm engaging primarily with T3 right now

[InsidiousLemons]

Ivyeo

(who has been on the site for 6 months longer than T3) - newbscum

I've been on the site for a while, but I also took a break for multiple months and am oplaying my fifth game, so make of that what you will.

Why is this necessary to bring up? Who cares how long someone has been here, you'll have reads and reasons, so regardless of experience the reasons better match the reads? This game of mafia isn't super hard to play when you're new to either...

its a response to my post that she literally quoted lol

[InsidiousLemons]

417 and 420 are good posts.

reaffirming that andante looks town judging by their thought process as compared to last game. happy with this

agreed that bugspray's lack of responsiveness and initiative is troubling

[InsidiousLemons]

i will also likely not be around for the next ~24 hours. super important audition today. wish me luck!

[InsidiousLemons]

thanks all for the audition wishes. it went very very well so keep your fingers crossed for me lol

@everyone don't worry about misgendering me, my stated pronouns are he/they so i'm fine with either. honestly any pronoun works for me because gender is a fuck, so feel free to use she/her if it strikes your fancy. i really really wish this site let you select multiple pronouns but for some reason that has never been implemented.

looking back at this game with fresh eyes, i actually do agree with the monkey's criticism that i'm going too easy on gerain. i stand by 406, but i do wonder why osuka is defending me so hard. not convinced that that means anything about his alignment, but he had me in his pocket last game and i'm not about to let it happen again. i think i overfocused T3 because of last game and ignored the fact that, in a micro where 2 miselims already puts us in LyLo, gerain is asking for a free pass to D2. i think monkey is right to be suspicious of me for not calling that out more harshly.

gonna finish catching up now

[InsidiousLemons]

My guys, I will misgender frequently. This is not personal. I am not American, and my native language is genderless.

this is still not appropriate response tho lol. keep apologizing when you get someone's pronouns wrong and keep working on trying to stop doing it. giving up is not a viable option

[InsidiousLemons]

2. Lemons' scumlist, which includes gerain and me, but who didn't vote gerain. (despite the pressure that gerain has from people like Ivyeo, Andante, and Dunnstral — making him a very viable wagon).

in a universe where lemons is scum, why on earth would he shift from pushing gerain to you, if gerain is looking like an easier mislynch? what the fuck?

yeah this is a good callout. hme's criticism of my supposed inconsistency is, in itself, not consistent. i should've been pushing gerain harder, but not for the reasons you're saying i should have been.

p-edit: i just think saying "i will be doing it" rather than "i will continue to try" does more harm than good. appreciate the effort

[InsidiousLemons]

why is ti strange to not want to appear scummy? i don't want to get voted off, so i want to look townie/not look scummy

right now, i have nothing to offer the game except my claim. i find it incredibly hard/impossible to find scum day 1. i do try and get better as the game goes on though...

im now thinking you're town, gerain

you have got to be fucking kidding me

[InsidiousLemons]

gerain, a scumread that you have, is doing a worse job than T3.

on the other hand, geraintm looks scummy as hell. nothing about this dude makes me think "he's playing to win as town", and everything about this dude makes me think "he's playing to win as scum."

Lemons has never interacted with gerain or did something about his suspicion that gerain is scum other than say that he's playing mafia terribly. playing mafia terribly is not a scumtell.

^ me not voting gerain is bad because his play lines up with what i associate with scum. i disagree because i think my vote is best on you atp, but i do agree that pushing harder would have been smart.

2. Lemons' scumlist, which includes gerain and me, but who didn't vote gerain. (despite the pressure that gerain has from people like Ivyeo, Andante, and Dunnstral — making him a very viable wagon).

^ now me not voting gerain is bad because he's a viable wagon. i disagree that a wagon being active is a good reason to put another vote onto it, all other things being equal. this is inconsistency

p-edit yes? in what world is self-preservation and deliberate inactivity town behaviour? these are literally the reasons you've been telling me to push gerain all game, and now suddenly he's town for doubling down?

[InsidiousLemons]

oh, day 1 i won't ask for clarification. i think anyone who claims a read strength greater than say.....33% is suffering delusions of overconfidence. why get people into trouble and ask them to clarify trying to catch mist on day 1?

"why get people into trouble" lmaoooooo

[InsidiousLemons]

I have the benefit of knowing that I'm town,

[InsidiousLemons]

533 feels okay.

540 isn't a great post but 542 as a justification has town vibes. the only real scum reason i can think of for 540 is coaching, but that's just my pre-daytalk-era brain talking. egix is still hard to read but maybe town

@humaneatingmonkey what did you find scummy in gerain's posts before? what do you find has changed?

[InsidiousLemons]

the rest of pg. 22 from egix also leans town for me. done catching up now

[InsidiousLemons]

i don't know if i buy that that's your real thought process. an indifferent regurgitation of his past assertions that barely playing this game is "just how he plays" is in line with the idea that he's just trying to coast to D2. i don't see a reason for town!hme to let up on the pressure here.

p-edit: yes and no. i don't think using the word "mislynch" was a slip, just walking down a particular path of possibilities. it's in line with the rest of his argument. i can understand you thinking that calling me conftown was an overstatement, and i'm inclined to agree that it's a little suspect so early in the game. the most important thing is internal consistency, and his posts don't indicate a significant shift in perspective regarding me. overall osuka doesn't strike me as particularly scummy, it just stood out to me that he would spend like a page and a half arguing with you and positioning his defense of me so prominently within that argument.

[InsidiousLemons]

it's in line with the rest of his argument. i can understand you thinking that calling me conftown was an overstatement, and i'm inclined to agree that it's a little suspect so early in the game.

why is it only a small deal for you that someone seems to be more confident than he usually has to be? isn't that a scumtell?

i've only played one game with osuka, and he was scum, so there isn't much to go off of. his meta, on the whole, is very difficult to separate into scumtells and towntells. if anyone has more experience with him i'd be willing to listen.

[InsidiousLemons]

also: the bit you quoted is the "yes" of the "yes and no." i'm saying that that behaviour is indeed suspicious.

[InsidiousLemons]

so... your reason for not taking it more into account is that it's impossible to sort him anyway? or do you just don't believe that it's a reliable scumtell in general?

i don't think it's reliably scum motivated for him, no. osuka is not really on my list for today as things stand, though i'm certainly not ruling him out as potential scum

[InsidiousLemons]

What's the meta on osuka? Does he have a reputation for being obtuse and overhostile?

yes lol

[InsidiousLemons]

i don't think he's done anything egregious enough to get proper pressure or momentum going on him. my plan for evaluating his slot for the time being is to continue gauging his reactions to content as it is generated. i'm looking forward to seeing how he responds to the thought that his defense of me might be a pocketing attempt, because it very well might be. his scum play last game was very good, so i may need to take a deeper dive into his meta than i have before and try to weed through the subtle differences in play. don't get me wrong -- i don't think passive observation on its own is likely to be enough to sort this slot confidently.

p-edit: there are better things to focus on right now. a couple of his plays have stood out to me, but they're not nearly the most suspicious things that have been done this game nor is he the most consistently questionable slot. and i never even said his hostility was scum-indicative -- his reputation for toxicity and stubbornness extends to all games, not just scum ones.

[InsidiousLemons]

okay, well that gave me some time to dig around in osuka's meta at least.

his only scum game that i can see for at least the past two years is the one we played together, Mini Normal 2205 (RotITGBSMoD). it's unfortunate that i can't really look at this game from as unbiased a perspective as his others, because i formed my own opinions on him throughout the game and analyzed his posts as a player rather than as an observer. still, if you look through his ISO there, i think you'll find he is

slightly

more aggressive in playstyle than in his town games such as Mini Normal 2171 (Boardgames) and Mini Normal 2154. it's difficult to say this with conviction because it's such a subjective observation, but if you look through the ISO's i linked (i will admit, i skimmed the ISO's and only read parts of the main game threads for context), i think you'll probably notice the trend i'm talking about. in my opinion, there's a noticeable uptick in the amount of vitriol coming from osuka in RotITGBSMoD as compared with the other two. i'll reiterate that this same observation of increased aggression was made almost immediately by a town player in RotITGBSMoD (andresvmb) who had past experience with osuka. for my money, osuka's attitude in this thread is more similar to his town play than to his scum play.

it's worth noting that both bugspray and dunnstral played with osuka in 2154. it's curious to me that neither of them responded to repeated calls for insider knowledge on osuka's meta. there's 220 from bug, but that post still doesn't link his behaviour in this game with any others. bugspray, i'm curious as to what your opinion is re: osuka's hostility and whether it's a tell or not. this goes doubly for dunnstral, who now has the lowest post count of anyone in the game, at a paltry 14 posts over 24 pages.

gerain's 530 swayed me very slightly, but upon further reflection i really don't think it's any more likely that it's genuine than that it's just a ploy for towncred. gerain, i don't care how bad you are at finding scum, we need opinions and justification out of you or you're going to screw us over in late game when we can't get a read on you. again, this goes for dunnstral as well, but i think my vote is more effective here considering there's already pressure on gerain.

VOTE: geraintm

[InsidiousLemons]

@hem i still don't like your defense of gerain but i'm losing confidence in my scumlean on you. our exchange about osuka feels like you genuinely voicing your thoughts and asking for mine in return, rather than looking for reasons to believe that osuka can be scum. saying you don't think you'll get much out of a 1v1 and then continuing to engage with me anyway suggests town to me as well. i may catch some flak for "placating" again but i think this is enough for me to move on for the time being.

@gerain can you give us even a rough idea of your reads on the playerlist? i don't care if you have 5 scumleans and 3 nulls, we have got to start somewhere. what are your thoughts on T3? on choof's play vs hme's? on osuka's hostility now vs the games i linked?

[InsidiousLemons]

I'm less bothered about osuka's hostility than his chainsaw defense of you, Lemons.

as am i. but i said i'd look into his meta, and i still think the results are valuable, if not quite as revealing as i might've hoped

[InsidiousLemons]

dont even start you two i am not reading 3 consecutive pages of catfighting again

[InsidiousLemons]

this guy here comes in and again immediately says he'll coast? am i not supposed to be unhappy?

it's fine to be unhappy. but don't start with this juicer thing again or i will claw my eyes out

It's fine Lemons. I'm not going to be participating in making the game toxic.
But since you're here, what's what?

sorry, i thought it was customary to read the thread on a replace-in. it's 25 pages dude, just put in even a modicum of effort and form your own opinions instead of trying to tie yourself to me right out the gate

[InsidiousLemons]

gerain's 530 swayed me very slightly, but upon further reflection i really don't think it's any more likely that it's genuine than that it's just a ploy for towncred

How is it a ploy for towncred exactly? I think the surprise he shows there is something that would have occurred naturally and hence does not need to be faked.

i suppose. the takeaway was supposed to be that the post is NAI. the suggestion that it could be a ploy comes from the notion that generally speaking, questioning a townread on yourself makes people more likely to think you're town. the "seriously?" feels a bit performative to me but i really don't think it's worth reading much into 530. it doesn't form a significant basis for my read on him at all.

and do you really think that emphatically suggesting a replacement read the thread is AtE? they come in here saying they're going to coast (which is also how they started off the last game i played with them) and trying multiple times to piggyback off of others' opinions. how am i supposed to react?

[InsidiousLemons]

hey guys. yesterday sucked and i could feel myself starting to bring that energy to the game so i stepped away. gonna catch up on the past few pages and see what's what.

@VFP i doubt i actually upset you but if i did i apologize. it really irks me when folks ask to be "brought up to speed" before actually reading the thread. the piggybacking thing wasn't based on past experience with VFP, just a frustration with their attempt to discern my opinions before forming their own. i acknowledge their strategy was more probably just to see if my perception of the game thus far aligns with theirs once they do give it a readthrough. i'll summarize my opinions thus far (likely later today) because honestly it's something i've been meaning to do anyway

[InsidiousLemons]

??????????? wait i just read page 25 and where is the ate?

Spoiler: Holy AtE, Batman.

[InsidiousLemons]

heres a scalding hot take

gerain is actually probably going to flip town pr

this is the kind of opinion you don't out until the flip is in danger of actually occurring. i'm having trouble seeing the town mindset between voicing this thought unnecessarily, but then again, scum would also probably just keep it to themself/the scum pt. it's just a weird move in general

@VFP can i ask what about gerain's 629 suggests a town mindset to you? do you think scum isn't this vocal about wanting to progress to the next day?

[InsidiousLemons]

I've been having a look through Ivyeo.
Although her early posts this game don't leave a good first impression, and it did take some pressure for her to start laying out her reads (227), I quite like the attitude she shows in 311 and 420.
Not just in a vacuum, but I also had a look through her D1 posts in Creatures. Although she does show an "attitude" in posts such as here and here, it feels like quite a different kind. For that, I'm thinking she's maybe town here.

can you be a bit more specific about what you see in ivy's scum play in creatures vs her play in this game? what do you mean by "attitude"? i agree with the points you make about her this game, but to me the two posts you linked from the other game don't feel markedly less hostile or aggressive, or very divergent in general from her playstyle here.

[InsidiousLemons]

I've been having a look through Ivyeo.
Although her early posts this game don't leave a good first impression, and it did take some pressure for her to start laying out her reads (227), I quite like the attitude she shows in 311 and 420.
Not just in a vacuum, but I also had a look through her D1 posts in Creatures. Although she does show an "attitude" in posts such as here and here, it feels like quite a different kind. For that, I'm thinking she's maybe town here.

can you be a bit more specific about what you see in ivy's scum play in creatures vs her play in this game? what do you mean by "attitude"? i agree with the points you make about her this game, but to me the two posts you linked from the other game don't feel markedly less hostile or aggressive, or very divergent in general from her playstyle here.

It's like, when I got to the "we want to execute our most likely scum do we not?" part, I felt like, "oh, that feels different". Similarly for the first line of the latter post, the tone of that part just felt different.

"different" isn't a super helpful qualifier here. more aggressive? less? more to the point? stating the obvious? i want to know

what

is different in your eyes

[InsidiousLemons]

gerain's return does not do much to convince me here. VFP, do you have past experience to suggest that gerain wouldn't claim VT unnecessarily? he even said he's deliberately attempting to vary his playstyle game to game, which is usually not a town play. though i do concede there's a certain boldness in admitting it outright

[InsidiousLemons]

i've typed up my thoughts on each player so far. i'm more conflicted about a lot of things than i'd thought before putting pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard, as the case may be), but i think i feel good about this list. here goes:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

upon rereading i like

ivy

a bit less. she is fine with sitting back and siding with the majority opinion, and it's been working out okay for her. as others have mentioned, her openness about not having much to say and her marked frustration in posts like 311 suggest town. she assures us in 339 and 359 that she'll speak when she has something to say, but she's barely given us anything in the 300+ posts since then. the votecount without any further comment could be seen as more of that superficial usefulness that people called her out for after the list of non-normal roles. i didn't agree with it the first time round but the VC is weird. ultimately still probtown but nothing super concrete in either direction.

egix

has almost the same number of posts as ivy but it feels like the distribution has been a little more even. posts like 302 and 625 seem earnest enough that i'm okay with him for now. leaning town for what feels like honest (if at times passive) scumhunting and thought progression.

bugspray

's iso is pretty barren and though he claims to have been occupied (not going to doubt this because i'm not a dick), he

does

keep popping in recently with pretty useless posts, which suggests to me that he's reading the thread and just not bothering to actually write anything of substance. scumlean for this and for his overall refusal to answer questions directed at him

the

choof/humaneatingmonkey

slot is tough. i liked choof initially, but i don't really know that there's anything particularly AI in his pre-replacement posts. regarding monkey, i'm having trouble letting go of my initial suspicions but he is starting to look better. null, but a conflicted null rather than an insufficient information null

i liked

andante

pre-replacement and i think it's kind of hilarious that she burnt herself out so hard writing reads posts that she decided to sub out.

VFP

doesn't look any different from my last game with them, and they were town then. into the town pile with this slot

if bugspray's iso is an empty cereal box then

dunnstral

's is the stale cheerios you find at the bottom. what posts he does have are pretty surface-level, though a handful of them ask okay questions. he might have been null based on actual content, but i'm starting to lean scum because of the extreme lack thereof.

i have seen nothing out of

osuka

that i wouldn't expect from either alignment. he's said himself that he's very difficult to read, though his pompousness in this regard may be something of a tell in its own right. he also doesn't seem to have any interest in responding to my earlier suspicion/pocketing accusation of him. i've been going back and forth with this but i do think scum!osuka is a distinct possibility. null for the time being.

umlaut

's early posts such as 127 and 346 feel comfortably town-minded for me, but his activity and engagement have dropped off extremely sharply since then. 586 makes an okay point but recently he seems to be kind of waiting to be questioned, which is not something i'd expect of someone trying to solve the game. still a townlean but i'd like to see a return to his earlier style.

T3

has been posting... sparingly, as is his usual fashion. he's a hard one to read for me because he's in so many games at once that his activity and investment per game is very low. that said, his naked acknowledgement of his own inactivity without an attempt at making excuses, along with his confidence in 404 (and overall lack of self-concern) make me think he's probably more likely town than scum. slight townlean

gerain

still looks like scum to me. i think giving him a pass for being self aware/claiming VT(?) is a bit of a cop out. i didn't notice it at first but 606 contains a dismissive "10 nulls and 2 i don't knows" which equals 12 players, meaning gerain probably isn't actually bothering to even

try

and read people or engage with the game. if he were being serious about this, odds are he would at least have bothered to subtract a null read to account for himself as a player whose alignment he knows. i don't like this slot.

i think i've said already in this game that

anya

looks basically the same as last game, in which she was scum. however, her meta is pretty consistent overall, and so far i haven't seen anything that i would consider to be outside of her range for either town or scum. null

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

this gives us, in (very) rough order from towniest to scummiest:

town/lean:

Egix96

Andante

/VFP
Umlaut
Ivyeo
T3

null:

osuka

choof

/humaneatingmonkey
Anya

scum/lean:

Dunnstral
bugspray
geraintm

some questions:

@bug are you still happy with your vote?

@Anya why are you suspicious enough of monkey's desire to read dunnstral that you're voting him, but didn't bother to comment when i was so desperate for info from T3?

@ivy, i'd be interested to hear how your thoughts have progressed since your initial readlist.

@T3 i would like to know how exactly osuka redeemed himself in your eyes. i kind of doubt this question will get answered because it's buried, and because T3 isn't always in the business of responding to questions at the best of times, but hey, nothing ventured nothing gained.

@Dunnstral, you say in 657 that gerain is "kind of weird" as town. can you elaborate on your experience(s) with him?

[InsidiousLemons]

@cook can we get a vote count? i'm sorry to keep asking but there have only been 5 in nearly 30 pages of gameplay

[InsidiousLemons]

first off sincere apologies to bugspray for misgendering them, and thank you for the correction.

i don't think you can fairly describe my push on you as a bad faith activity tell. i recognize that spoons are hard to come by nowadays and that it takes different amounts of emotional and mental energy to skim vs to read in-depth. i'm sorry to hear your mental health is in a bad way right now. all that being said, other players are catching heat for a similar lack of engagement, and you don't seem to be upset about that. i know you said you'd been taking a break and i hope nothing is seriously amiss in your personal life to have caused that, but you simply are not putting enough effort into this game for anyone to be able to get a reliable idea of your thought process and perspective.

having said that, 753 and 754 make a compelling case to me that bugspray is kinda in the pits right now. if it's an AtE then consider me appealed to -- i don't want to lim someone just because they're having a rough go, and i think i'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt under the circumstances.

@Dunnstral, you say in 657 that gerain is "kind of weird" as town. can you elaborate on your experience(s) with him?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83597

This game, I just remember them feeling off

had a skim through gerain's iso and while his play does look similarly "off" in that game in terms of posting style, imo he is putting out substantially more effort on D1 in the game you linked. he doesn't take super strong stands but he occasionally calls things out, responds to accusations against him with what feels like a bit more vigor and thoroughness. check out these posts. does that look like the gerain we're seeing here?

you're one of the more capable players on the plist

pocketing attempt confirmed

for real tho i have never seen osuka type even half that much in one post. granted i've never seen him address something he "wouldn't normally address" either, but i'm curious enough about how he will react under pressure that i'm fine hopping on the wagon and seeing where it leads. as i've said, it's been hard for me to get a solid idea about him this game, so i don't mind taking a chance here. i doubt very much that he's the type of player to go down without a fight, so he'll have plenty of opportunity to plead his case if we're wrong.

VOTE: osuka

spent a decent portion of today in the hospital for a stupid injury so i didn't get to catch up super thoroughly. i'll probably be back later tonight or early tomorrow. if i missed any questions directed at me, feel free to re-ask.

[InsidiousLemons]

this is the last time i'm going to say this: if you can't fully grasp that saying someone is conftown d1 is a hyperbole, or that I said gerains was a mislynch _very clearly_ in THAT hypothetical, for the sake of the argument, then i don't know what else to tell you than to go read a fucking book, because you really need to learn how to interpret some fucking text before you try to play a game of mafia again.

you slipped again. this paragraph was written in the assumption that I am town. i thought was scum?

i don't see how this paragraph explicitly assumes you are town. he's just fighting back against a push. how is this a perspective slip?

[InsidiousLemons]

Egix96
• looks engaged, but not really. ("I'm willing to admit, it does feel a bit like he's in commentary mode.")
• transparent but inconsistent process. (very notable thing is that he doesn't move his vote/convictions until it's been seconded by someone else and it doesn't feel like he has his own process.)
• i don't empathize with his perspective
• hasn't demonstrated that they're PR hunting
• isn't incoherently overexplaining in their defense.
take: probably scum. this is one of two of my "probably scum" lynch in d1.

i'm kind of surprised to see egix so high up here. what is it about his perspective that you don't empathize with?

[InsidiousLemons]

all in all i'm not loving osuka's response to the hme pressure but it could still come from town. i'm looking forward to his response to 788 because as far as i can see, he hasn't really provided a concrete explanation for why his townread on me was so strong so early

[InsidiousLemons]

you're one of the more capable players on the plist

pocketing attempt confirmed

for real tho i have never seen osuka type even half that much in one post. granted i've never seen him address something he "wouldn't normally address" either, but i'm curious enough about how he will react under pressure that i'm fine hopping on the wagon and seeing where it leads. as i've said, it's been hard for me to get a solid idea about him this game, so i don't mind taking a chance here. i doubt very much that he's the type of player to go down without a fight, so he'll have plenty of opportunity to plead his case if we're wrong.

VOTE: osuka

spent a decent portion of today in the hospital for a stupid injury so i didn't get to catch up super thoroughly. i'll probably be back later tonight or early tomorrow. if i missed any questions directed at me, feel free to re-ask.

i plan on reading over that gerald game that i haven't honestly bothered to look at yet and i'll post here about it in a second

you're not gonna like my answer i think, but it really just was >500mg of caffeine in a day that got me to write that. at the risk of being pedantic (though you're probably not one to talk about that), it's important to distinguish between addressing an accusation of a pocketing attempt and addressing the conversation about the lack of an address to an accusation of a pocketing attempt. it really is the case that addressing a pocketing attempt accusation is largely pointless, but pointing _that_ out might not be

by and large i don't really truly care how you read me here because i highly doubt you're going to look at my game and read it as town, because of recency and confirmation biases. i can't think of a single time where i played two games over a short period of time, first as scum and second as town, with one or more of the same players, and _wasn't_ scumread the second time around - let alone back to back. that's a consequence of making my playstyle intentionally nebulous to actively curb meta reads on me. i've openly admitted to that before and there's no point in lying about it, and i chose to do that fully aware that it would end up painting a fat target on my back, regardless of alignment, and getting me mislynched way too frequently

non game related, but i hope your injury heals soon

this is still kind of pockety. he makes a decent case for not addressing the pocketing and then for addressing that fact itself, but i haven't known osuka to be this patient and polite to literally anyone else, especially not to someone who's actively pushing towards getting him elemonated. maybe it really is recency/confirmation bias but dude seems very invested in me specifically not disliking him and even with the "strong townread" on me, i don't really understand why

[InsidiousLemons]

maybe human eating monkey for his fast about face on me for no good reasons is suspicious - because i didn't do anything to change their mind really.

i don't know what you're saying because even this post is pretty town

the timeline was i believe

you think i'm scum
i go "you can think of me as bad town but i am town"
you go "oh yeah, you are right, you are town!"
i go "that's weird you backed off me so easily"
you go "you are spewing town vibes"
i go "i really am not, you are being weird"
you go "see, you did it again!"

i find your interaction with me odd

@lemons i think this is in line with the game you linked. how would you say this differs from that?

it doesn't differ substantially. gerain just seems overall more invested even in D1 of that other game. to me the difference is that gerain there is trying to stay active in spite of his vocal distaste for D1s, whereas here he seems to be falling back on it as a crutch because it's "how he always plays". dunnstral's 381 ivy's 420 make good points about this. i don't know that i would necessarily say that meta is a

cornerstone

of the case, but it is a decent part. however, i'm not sure how much else you can reasonably expect there to be considering how little gerain has given us to work with.

p-edit: this is kind of a stretch. osuka's statement is "IF you can't fully grasp..." -- he is once again speaking in hypotheticals. the point he's making reads to me as something like "if you're not scum then you're illiterate, which i know you aren't, therefore scum". you're trying pretty hard to make these "if" statements factually inconsistent.

[InsidiousLemons]

got vaccined today my arm horts troo much for reading thius crap

pfizer gang??? my arm hurt like a bitch for like two days after

you have been recruited into the pfizer neighborhood

new role suggestion: 2-shot pfizerizer

[InsidiousLemons]

if you can understand the context of this series of posts, it's to make the case that i'm scum. nothing in this series of posts points towards osuka even considering me as town that would relate to this paragraph.

this is the type of thing you only say to someone you think is town.

i'm sorry but i just don't think this is true. yes, he is making the case that you're scum, but i still don't see how that paragraph can only be said to someone you think is town. i'm wary of defending osuka too much because he can handle it himself but "if you truly don't understand this then you're stupid" ≠ "i think you're town". the "if" here very blatantly leaves room for an alternate possibility -- that you are scum who is deliberately misunderstanding. if he had phrased it as something like "you are clearly misunderstanding so allow me to explain", i could maybe see this angle. but he didn't. you're creating self-contradictions from osuka that don't actually exist.

[InsidiousLemons]

Not as many people would have voted him in such a relatively short span of time.

Scum bussing exists.

^
granted, i don't know how much i buy that scum would bus osuka here so readily, but you don't really do much to respond to this, egix

[InsidiousLemons]

enjoy your breakfast bug. looking forward to your catch-up

[InsidiousLemons]

let me ask this another way: what makes

you

believe that scum wouldn't bus here?

[InsidiousLemons]

this is the answer i was hoping for. the simple answer is consistent with what we've seen from egix so far -- i wondered if scum!egix may have panicked under munti-angle pressure and gone looking for a more substantial reason why scum!osuka wouldn't get bussed. this isn't much evidence at all because i think the best play overall is just to fall back on the obvious response, but it's reassuring to make a correct prediction.

the reverse-catchup is an interesting play from bug because it makes it substantially harder to track their process. i don't know if i like it

[InsidiousLemons]

that "if" is doing a lot of work lol. and many of the posts that are replies to long conversations just cut out all but the most recent post in the quote. why not just read the thread in order? this is a super weird defense of a super weird strategy

[InsidiousLemons]

UNVOTE:

imagine there is a votecount here

osuka is at e-1

listen i really do not want to be a bother but i assumed this was a placeholder and we still don't have a votecount here. you have asked multiple times about the frequency of your vote counts and multiple people at this point have asked that they be done more often. please try and aim for one per page, preferably near the top, it would be really really helpful. thank you cook

Thats actually a fair point.
So Osuka looks okay in that case.

VOTE: Ivy
I think Ivy looks pretty bad.
2 players pushing Osuka for a slip is Human and Ivy. Human was an obvious derp moment as scum aren't going to realistically push that, even if PRs did have PTs.

do you have anything more substantial on ivy? her osuka push is weak but that alone doesn't really convince me.

i see no reason not to believe the osuka claim with things being the way they are. i can see hem as tunneled town but i don't like how desperate he is to keep this push alive. if there's room enough for an "i'm sorry if i'm wrong" post then you do not push for a claimed PR elim. it just is not the way.

[InsidiousLemons]

keep in mind osuka never faced anywhere close to this amount of pressure as scum. neither of us really know what his scum game looks like under fire

unless you mean overall in which case i'd actually argue that he looks a little more subdued

p-edit i don't think we should read too much into cook's modding style. even if it does mean something i don't want to win that way, and i don't even believe it does mean anything. i think he just wanted to mod-confirm that osuka was 1 away from a lim. i agree it's a bad look for cook though

[InsidiousLemons]

then let's cross that bridge when we come to it. there is no use in assuming he'll live overnight and even if he does, now that you've said it the chances are even lower that it means anything. we can deal with this tomorrow there is no reason to lim our only claimed PR

[InsidiousLemons]

egix called me up last night and confessed he was a hyena

he said he wanted to get some things off his chest and that he's committed murder before and that he hopes he can trust his secret with me

well i'm only friends with one person egix and that's the law

VOTE: egix

what is your actual reason here

[InsidiousLemons]

i could go for dunn but with umlaut maybe getting off of v/la today i want to use as much of the 22 hours we have left as possible. if we hit 12 hours with no further content from ivy/umlaut/dunn etc then i'll compromise on the dunn lim

ps cook deadline countdowns in your VCs are great too kiss kiss mwah thank you

[InsidiousLemons]

VFP is voting dunn

[InsidiousLemons]

perspective shift?

you were confident they slipped before and now it's just that you "don't see many of their posts from a towny perspective"? you were directly questioned about the supposed slip and you still didn't even mention it

[InsidiousLemons]

what about osuka's posts only make sense if he's mafia? see my 843. maybe osuka's posts read like he's assuming monkey to be town to

you

, but i have yet to see a non-subjective case made for this slip/perspective shift/whatever you want to call it.

[InsidiousLemons]

i agree that that post from hem is extremely sus. don't think i've made my stance on it clear yet but yeah, hem do you want to explain why the hell you're so confident that scum don't have informed roles? you've completely ignored multiple people pushing you for a scumslip lolol

[InsidiousLemons]

so why does literally every tpr have to have access to a pt?

They don't. I just made a mistake.

it's an answer to another question

okay well this makes me feel a little better. still a bit of a strong statement to say for certain that not all PRs have access to a PT, but i think this is more likely a case of emphatic word choice than a slip. not totally sure though

[InsidiousLemons]

let's take a look at how ivy's case on osuka has evolved over the course of the game.

Osuka is mildly more leaning scum for being unhelpful.
[...]
VOTE: Osuka

first osuka is a scumlean for "being unhelpful" (?)

Bugspray Osuka and Geraintin are who'd I'd be willing to vote into today.

then as far as i can see, no mention of or interaction with osuka for 500+ posts, during which time she's mostly focused on gerain. then she reaffirms her support for an osuka lim

I've been flip flopping the twon in my head and in my vote, but I think I'm good to move here now
VOTE: Osuka

then 7 posts later, after hem makes it clear he won't support a gerain elim and votes osuka, she switches her vote

my process may be opaque (i couldn't possibly know because i'm not an outsider from my perspective), but inconsistent? i never said you were scum. to be clear:

i said that

if it's not tvt

, you're overwhelmingly likely to be the scum

instead of lemons

(bolded for emphasis, not in the original)

please point out where i slipped in perspective. my read on lemons has stayed relatively constant from the beginning of the game and yours is a bit vague if anything, but with this sort of push i can't imagine there isn't at least some degree of hidden motivation behind what you're doing.

The slip comes in that you're still assuming that atleast 1 is scum, which the post doesn't make clear. Even if you say you never siad they were scum, sure as hell felt like you were.

then osuka "slips", ivyeo comes in with the assist for hem's case with the incredibly strong argument that it "felt" like osuka assumed at least one of {lemons, monkey} was scum (he clearly didn't)

Just do Dunn with me

VOTE: Dunn
Okay.

@Ivy

- what's your thoughts on the Osuka claim and where do you think is a better option now?
Do you still think that Osuka slipped?

I still don't like the claim really, but I understand that town is not willing to exec there today. I still really don't see many of their posts from a towny perspective tbh, even the recent posts which just kinda feel like they're there and just to redirect attention. That being Said, Dunn is also in my scum pile for now so I'd also go there.

and now she doesn't even mention the slip when questioned. brownie points i guess for at least using the same fallacious reasoning as before rather than switching to a more logically sound argument, but this progression is all over the place.

[InsidiousLemons]

Sure it's subjective but so is everything in Mafia.

this is patently untrue. it is more than possible to make a facts-based case that does not rely on your personal interpretations and feelings about what a post may or may not mean, especially when, again, the post itself counters your agument.

His "Hypotheticals" seem to be taking a lot for granted, and they're a majority of his cases. It' like using those ifs as excuses to not have to push from his actual PoV.

i could say the same about your overuse of the words "seem" and "feel"

[InsidiousLemons]

so why does literally every tpr have to have access to a pt?

They don't. I just made a mistake.

it's an answer to another question

bugspray you can't even comprehend the number of style points you get for winning a mafia game off of a scumslip

once bitten twice shy. is there anything in particular that makes you disbelieve that hem was responding to 899 rather than 901? i understand that it is still sketch but i do think we porbably have better options than HEM today

[InsidiousLemons]

i'm aware of that fact. i'm saying my confidence that it

was

a scumslip is greatly diminished by the strength and simplicity of hem's explanation, and i don't think it's worth limming over when there are other options on the table. how do you feel about my analysis of ivy's case on osuka?

[InsidiousLemons]

re: 968 i'm kind of wary of how fine everyone is with a dunn lim. unanimity suggests that scum are okay with it too, and his flip gives us almost no information. with 16 hours to go, i will be waking up tomorrow right around the time of the deadline, and i suspect this is the case for many of us. we probably need to decide on a lim tonight, despite the monkey's resistance.

it's worth noting that in the convo quoted in 728, egix is unable to qualify the difference in "attitude" that he feels in ivy's play between one of her scum games and this one, for which he's "thinking she's maybe town here". he's quite eager to move away from the subject in that post, even attacking me to do so. the only reasons he cites for a townread apart from this are 311 and 420 which, while town-looking posts, don't really do it for me anymore given what we've seen since. this could suggest partner equity if one of them flips scum. i recognize that i'm getting a bit all over the place, but i'm feeling the deadline panic a bit and i want to consider every possible option before we make a decision.

VOTE: ivyeo

p-edit: i never criticized her for saying she'd go for dunn so it's interesting that you focus on that. my argument against her is mostly that the progression of her read on osuka feels unnatural. this is being super, super nitpicky, but it also stands out to me slightly that she seems to classify "town" as a group of which she is not a part in 970. i don't really want to read too much into word choice like this, but it caught my eye, so i might as well mention it.

bug am i right in thinking that your top 2 for today are humaneatingmonkey and dunnstral? i want to see how ivy responds to my post but i'm actually leaning in her direction for a lim atp

[InsidiousLemons]

992 makes a convincing enough case that i could probably go for hem. i didn't notice the time discrepancy at first, and i can't find any other examples of monkey replying to a post that isn't the most recent without a quote or p-edit.

[InsidiousLemons]

we've got to get this show on the road. it's 12 hours to deadline and we need to start building momentum somewhere.

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

i think this puts him at E-4 because the wagons are still so divided

[InsidiousLemons]

i'm pretty sure anya is sticking with the same thing she said before.

@anya in 905 humaneatingmonkey makes an initial justification which mentions nothing about responding to another question. do you believe that someone who's been on the site since 2017 doesn't know the difference between a PT and a PR?

[InsidiousLemons]

UNVOTE: Nevermind, I thought all PRs will have daytalk

so why does literally every tpr have to have access to a pt?

They don't. I just made a mistake.

They don't.

s c u m s l i p

No, that's just a general way of covering roles like neighbor and mason

this is what I remembered and I thought Dunn was zeroing in on the roles available to this game.

I misunderstood that PT and PR are the same

isn't this the obvious sequence of events

bugspray says what pr = pt confusion etc

monkeyeatingbanana replies with 903

bugspray replies with sCuMsLiP

monkey eater clarifies further

> 898
> 899
> conveniently cuts out 900-902
> 903
> 904
> 905

"isn't this the obvious sequence of events?"

[InsidiousLemons]

@bug townfall = anya-speak for townslip. she's saying that hem didn't make a scumslip, which is consistent with her earlier post

[InsidiousLemons]

very good bug yes that is the post in question

[InsidiousLemons]

@anya if you show me your town license i'll show you mine

[InsidiousLemons]

We're running out of time, everyone online give 3 names they'd be willing to go for today,
[Dunn, Lemons, Gera]

you should probably switch your vote off of osuka then

i think trying to hit a wolf is always better personally

well hey at least we agree on something

Umlaut, Bug, Top 3 Executions?

i know you didnt ask me but i'll give you mine for free

[monkey, ivy, dunnstral]

p-edit: dunn if you're around i guess this is intent to hammer. still wary of this one because of how popular it is but even a green flip will give us info from voting history and such

[InsidiousLemons]

i'm going to be up for a couple more hours so i don't mind waiting around on a claim. i will not be sober though fair warning

[InsidiousLemons]

agreed. that's why i declared intent

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: osuka

okay, well, this is my tail tucked between my legs moment. i have been facepalming for the past 2 days at how obviously ridiculous osuka's push on hem was. i understand that osuka and i are both obvscum here, the only issue is that i'm not scum. i may have been stupid enough to believe the scumslip push, but i don't believe osuka is. i've seen his reasoning and it is never this overtly wrong. frankly i'm kind of surprised he thinks this push is still viable at all. yes, i understand how absolutely dripping in scum vibes it is to say all this as someone who hopped on the hem wagon. i'm saying it anyway. i really do not have an explanation for why i fell for the scumslip push other than that i was kinda tunneled on hem and really wanted to have found scum. if you still want to lim me tomorrow, do it. you'll have the votes i'm sure.

going back over the ISOs i think VFP could have partner equity with osuka. it's very rare (at least in my experience) to be able to find comments from osuka that overtly point to distancing with no grey area, so take this with a generous grain of salt, but osuka took multiple opportunities to take swipes at andante early in the game, knowing that she was playing pretty much identically to last game (when she was town). taken together with the post where he says he agreed with my early game analysis of andante, there is a case to be made for distancing here. i cant quote right now because mobile but you'll find them if you look. he'll probably counter that he was trying to see if she would react the same way to pressure, which is valid, but again, things are rarely black or white with osuka. VFP coming in and immediately saying he'll coast again could also be taken as VFP creating an opportunity for osuka to distance. again, the case is thin, but this is all my search for possible osuka partners really turned up. scum!Dunn is still a possibility and he didn't really have enough interaction to say whether there's equity there or not.

hem, it is kind of bizarre to me that you're going for me first over osuka. in your "if dunn is scum" scenario, why do you think i'm the scum over osuka?

anyway, hem is all but conftown for the quick flip onto bugs. the fact that osuka is continuing to push him even after the flip is even more damning.

[InsidiousLemons]

at work so i haven't read much of what's been posted today. i'll take a look when i'm home

[InsidiousLemons]

vt

Claiming VT at this precise moment with HEM and me just starting to push a different wagon, when town might well decide it's safer to launch the VT claim than then unclaimed Bugs, seems very town to me; safer for scum to just keep their head down a little longer and see what happens than to pop up right then.

this is a solid point and i think it makes me okay putting dunn down as town for now. i'm hesitant to keep letting him coast though

I'm not sure if Lemons is scum here.

Egix / Uma / Ivy is where at least 1 scum will be.

this PoE confuses me greatly. why does there have to be scum here?

For osu to be scum, that would mean scum pulled a no-kill gambit right?

yes, but i really don't think this is particularly unlikely, especially in light of 1175:

it's _possible_ that it was me, but i don't get night action feedback so i really don't know for sure

it's a ballsy move but i could definitely see scumsuka going for it.

Ivy might be our mole in the townbloc. If it's LYLO, I will always vote Ivy.

i'm pretty confident ivy is town here. umlaut's 1212 makes a decent case against the likelihood of an ivy-bugspray scumteam, and for reasons laid out in 979, i find it pretty hard to believe that ivy-osuka is a valid solve either. ivy's attack on osuka doesn't look like distancing to me, it looks like she's looking for a lim. that's negative equity with 1 confscum

and

1 probscum

p-edit: fdshds what the fuck is the point of that post

[InsidiousLemons]

could the scum team actually be bugs-osuka-t3 lol what a world

[InsidiousLemons]

okay i see that vfp

kind of

explained the solve from 1166 in 1202 and 1206 but not fully and not well

I disagree, if Dunn is town and Uma knows then why not focus on Bugs?

because it's much much easier to just go for the hammer that no one will really fault you for anyway? dunn was a popular wagon, i really don't see the scum motivation for a post like 1056,

especially

if dunn is town. forgoing an easy town lim to bus your partner at the last second is not a good trade. if dunn is scum you might have a bit more of a case considering 1155 but as monkey said, that necessitates that the scumteam be exactly {bugspray, umlaut, dunnstral}

Also, I think every scum game I have ever done I have either bussed or pushed my buddy as scum.
If I'm going to lim a scum member, it's going to be a fruit vendor, and not someone who posts less in the game.

ah, the classic "that's what i would have done as scum therefore it's a scum play" fallacy

[InsidiousLemons]

cook can we get a vc? sorry for yoinking your pagetop qq

[InsidiousLemons]

you won't like this, but it worked on me because i hyped myself up thinking you were scum, you explained yourself well, and then osuka came along with a counter-explanation that looked at a glance like it made sense. and looking like it made sense was enough, because i was emotionally invested in you being scum, so i jumped at the chance to start pushing you again. i like to think i have good deductive reasoning skills, but i am incredibly susceptible to my own emotions, and it's something i'm working on. i'll quote myself from last game:

for me, the best way to avoid making mistakes is to try and remove myself from who i

want

to be scum, who would make the game

easier to solve

if they were scum, and try to look at who actually is, based on the facts. for me, and for many people, allowing myself to get too emotionally attached to the outcome of the game or the flip of a specific player clouds my judgement.

this is what i failed to do this time around. i get excited and commit too hard to things that don't fully add up, see what i want to see in other people's posts. time pressure compounded this excitement, and further fed my desire to have found scum to eliminate. the problem is that this type of behaviour, especially posts like 1018 which was a piss poor argument, is essentially indistinguishable from scum desperation. make no mistake -- this is

bad

, and i won't be surprised if it gets me eliminated here. it's the deadliest fault in my play and something i have to work on as a person, not just as a mafia player.

if i'm being honest i had already started to lose confidence before i even stopped posting, but i pushed it down because it was already too late to back down from believing osuka's 992. i don't really expect you to believe that this isn't just AtE (i'm gonna link 680 so you don't think i'm trying to exploit the weakness you mentioned in that post), but this is the full, real explanation.

[InsidiousLemons]

could the scum team actually be bugs-osuka-t3 lol what a world

You really think I would have bussed my motion detector for half the game?
lol this is scum

wrong game cutie <3 the motion detector flip was in 2209 but shhh because we're still playing that one

[InsidiousLemons]

within the context of this game tho, looking back at 757 and 763 makes me doubt T3 and bugspray go together. this doesn't look like distancing to me. T3 is probably town here

forgive me for not finding those posts particularly memorable lol

[InsidiousLemons]

is this within Lemons scum range?

@Anya

, since you've shown that you use meta and you vouch for Lemons, would you kindly do the honors? I'm absolutely tunneled here, and even if I feel like this vulnerability could never come from scum, I'm almost certain it can. I also objectively think Lemons was outright scummy yesterday.

@Umlaut

, would you kindly tell me what you think about this one?

Lemons, is your solve osuka > VFP? Can you tell me who your solve is?

i'm leaning osuka > vfp, yeah. i mentioned the (slight) equity between them already, and his recent push on umlaut doesn't help, but honestly my reasons are mostly PoE. for D2 there are a surprising number of players we can mostly clear:

- you, anya and umlaut are clear for yeeting bugspray in 0.25 seconds
- ivy is clear for also helping to do that and by reason of probably not being bugs' partner (see umlaut's 1212 and my 1223)
- T3 also doesn't make much sense with bugs scum

so this leaves us with egix96, dunnstral, geraintm, osuka, vfp. of these, dunn is a townlean due to the timing of the vt claim and egix96 has been a mild but consistent townlean for me. this is mostly gut but i get such good egg vibes from him. i can't really put my finger on

why

i feel good about egix but he just doesn't really ping for me.

so my order for the non-clears looks like osuka > vfp > gerain > egix > dunn

i recognize that i'm kind of sheeping umlaut on a lot of this reasoning but dude makes some solid points what can i say

p-edit i started writing this post, walked away and now there's been a lot more. i'm kind of in the middle of something so i'm gonna make a few quick points then come back

[InsidiousLemons]

as far as meta goes i'm sad to say i haven't rolled scum since i was 14, so there's not really an established scum range for me.

[InsidiousLemons]

within the context of this game tho, looking back at 757 and 763 makes me doubt T3 and bugspray go together. this doesn't look like distancing to me. T3 is probably town here

forgive me for not finding those posts particularly memorable lol

Sry but I really don't get how those posts would preclude T3 from being scum. The first is a weak meta argument and the second is just an objective statement.

it's not the content of the posts in a vacuum, it's that i find it hard to believe T3 would make that kind of push on his partner

Well I believed the push too for a while, but you don't see me making such a fuss about it...

your head isn't on the chopping block.

i'm sad to say i haven't rolled scum since i was 14

this is sad

i stopped playing at 14 and took a 5 year break, this is only my second game back

[InsidiousLemons]

Anya and Umlaut are conftown to me.

I'm not saying Umlaut is confirmed town here, and you could be right, but he's at the very last of my scumpile.

I lynch after that, Anya and Ivyeo, which I already said I will only lynch at LYLO.

what happened here?

p-edit i'm so confused

[InsidiousLemons]

How many elims do we have before LYLO?

2 by my count, assuming 2 remaining scum who successfully kill every night.

9v2, miselim + NK > 7v2, miselim + NK > 5v2 (LyLo)

also i know it isn't intentional but i'm gonna remind you that "lynch" is not used anymore

[InsidiousLemons]

I feel like that Uma response and vote was in panic to Human fuckijg up there?

can you explain what this means

[InsidiousLemons]

i don't really see the logic there. umlaut is far from locktown for me but what is the scum utility of a vote there? i've never seen anyone back off of their argument because one person voted them and called their reaction fake

p-edit: @1294

[InsidiousLemons]

uhhh yeah im dumbass

okay 3 miselims sorry it's been a long day

[InsidiousLemons]

Anya what do you think

that's half the reason i'm voting osuka tbh lemons entrance to the stage today is really good and makes some sense while osuka is statically pushing you like he's an electrician with no other thoughts

if you're me and you rolestopped hem, that vote makes much more sense

so given that you

didn't

rolestop hem, your vote is back to making zero fucking sense

[InsidiousLemons]

i don't really see the logic there. umlaut is far from locktown for me but what is the scum utility of a vote there? i've never seen anyone back off of their argument because one person voted them and called their reaction fake

p-edit: @1294

Well the post and vote just felt so out of place from what has been said in the thread since.
It was like Uma is watching but didn't want to add anything to the mix.

what's he supposed to say? you and hme are having a back-and-forth, and "the post and vote felt out of place" ≠ scum utility

[InsidiousLemons]

uhhhhhhhhhh yeah you're right okay so @osuka what is 1248 saying since i'm clearly misreading

[InsidiousLemons]

what's he supposed to say? you and hme are having a back-and-forth, and "the post and vote felt out of place" ≠ scum utility

But we wasn't having a back and fourth...
Me and Human were. And the timing of Uma to respond to 1 post and put a vote down seems forced.
The same point that I'm calling Human out for lying.

i feel like we're going in circles. sure, umlaut voted you after you called out hme, but he did so responding to a specific post of yours that didn't concern the whole conftown/not conftown debacle. i am asking you what the scum motivation is for placing a vote at that specific time and you don't seem to have an answer. it's like you're assuming a vote on you automatically determines the credibility of your argument in everyone else's eyes, which it doesn't. your words do.

[InsidiousLemons]

Anya what do you think

that's half the reason i'm voting osuka tbh lemons entrance to the stage today is really good and makes some sense while osuka is statically pushing you like he's an electrician with no other thoughts

if you're me and you rolestopped hem, that vote makes much more sense

so given that you

didn't

rolestop hem, your vote is back to making zero fucking sense

oh i'm a moron

i meant rolestopped LEMONS

i rolestopped YOU so that hem couldn't kill you. i think i had a stroke, it took me three reads of this quote for me to understand what was wrong so yeah, sorry

call me crazy but this could easily be a slip

i think you mixed up rolestopper/roleblocker in your head and forgot what your fake action was supposed to do

1312 is more uncharacteristic politeness from osuka. he does soften up when admitting a mistake, but i can't help feeling this post was at least partly made with the intention of mitigating my disbelief with AtE

can we yeet this

[InsidiousLemons]

the massclaim suggestion is ludicrous. if osuka somehow actually flips town odd night rolestopper here i will be pointing an entire hand of suspicion at monkey

to be clear: i claimed roleSTOPPER and i roleSTOPPED lemons

i think you meant to put this in your notes pt

[InsidiousLemons]

i don't know what linking the thread here is supposed to prove dude

like if anything it just shows that it's a mistake you're susceptible to making

[InsidiousLemons]

if osuka flips scum:
- his scumslip push on hme and subsequent rolestop/roleblock fumble are unprecedentedly sloppy scum play and i will not ever let him forget it
- hme basically conftown
- we lim vfp next (or me if you guys feel like prolonging the game a little)

if osuka flips town:
- his scumslip push on hme and subsequent rolestop/roleblock fumble are two shining examples of the patented brain short-circuit that osuka likes to pick fun at other people for and i will not ever let him forget it
- it's possible (not sure yet how likely) that scum!hme saw the writing on the wall and knew that bugspray would be limmed soon anyway, and decided to capitalize on the opening that umlaut created on bug's wagon in order to conftown himself by bussing bugs
- ivy is back on the menu as a possible partner

either way this slot gives too much info to not get the rope today

[InsidiousLemons]

yeah you're looking very good, but i can maaaybe see scum!monkey pulling some shenanigans with trying to bus bugs on the first day if the reward is being conftowned and eliminating one of the strongest anti-hme town voices right off the bat. not saying it's likely or that i think that's the case as things are, but saying it's made plausible if osuka flips town here. the assumption is that he'll flip scum -- if he does, you're conftown because there's no way you would actively bus both partners

if he doesn't though, it opens the door for the bugs push to have been for show

i'm not sure that it's very probable even in a town!osuka universe, i just haven't thought about it much yet. which is why i included this part

(not sure yet how likely)

[InsidiousLemons]

sure thing. but i want to have proof that it's been on my mind if circumstances dictate that the bridge be crossed

[InsidiousLemons]

the massclaim suggestion is ludicrous. if osuka somehow actually flips town odd night rolestopper here i will be pointing an entire hand of suspicion at monkey

to be clear: i claimed roleSTOPPER and i roleSTOPPED lemons

i think you meant to put this in your notes pt

cute

i learned from the best

[InsidiousLemons]

if you're me and you rolestopped hem, that vote makes much more sense

hem gets rid of lemons here to make me look bad and gets rid of two people at once, including a PR. he can't kill me lest he implicate himself, so he kills lemons instead and goes "how did osuka know that flip was green"

i kinda sorta have a soft clear on lemons unless there's some other protective role or roleblocker that's unclaimed. if that's the case, i might have this all wrong but please please please don't claim

if you take the first sentence off, the post makes sense. if you replace "hem" by lemons in the first sentence, the post makes even more sense. how do you not get that? or alternatively, why would you pretend not to get that? the only reason my read on you isn't gonna flip is because i had a protect on you and as i said that's a soft clear in light of no night kill

i do get it, or at least i get what you're going for. i believe that you didn't mix up rolestopper and roleblocker at the time of your claim, sure. what i'm saying is that i think you forgot the specific function of your night action

at the time that you outed your target

, because you had a narrative in mind that you wanted to construct -- one which incriminates hem, and which implicates me when you flip scum. convenient.

when you send in your night action, you specifically target

one person

, and yes i do find it kind of hard to believe that you would forget who that one specific person was. i think hem was what slipped out because he was on your mind, because even though he wasn't your "target",

your action was more about harming hem than protecting me.

i think town!osuka would have been markedly less likely to make this mistake.

there is never going to be a way to prove conclusively whether you would or would not have made this mistake as town. but as i've said, flipping your slot is going to give us a lot of information either way. if you flip red, great. and even if you flip green, that

still

gives us a solid lead on hem and provides us with a frame of reference for what other PRs are more or less likely to coexist in the same game.

and lastly, why does it even have to be hem who shot at me? if the aim is simply to incriminate you and kill two birds with one stone, wouldn't

any

scum seize the same opportunity?

[InsidiousLemons]

If nobody else claims something that can stop a kill, then osuka is not a good vote.

Also bugspray was on osuka's e-1 wagon

i have to say, i find dunnstral popping in here

just

to defend osuka, and not to comment on the flip, lack of night kill, hem, vfp, me, or

voice any other thoughts at all

, a little suspect.

while the lack of a counterclaim suggests that there are no protectives in a scum!osuka universe, that alone doesn't really dissuade me in the face of all the other evidence. especially not since, as far as i can see, osuka never even mentioned the lack of a counterclaim in the process of defending himself. you'd think an actual PR would point to that as evidence.

the point about bugspray being on osuka's wagon is a little better. for reference, here's the post where he votes:

that all said: i have no idea what the fuck the votecount is at and i'm about to go to a friend's house here so i'll be on later to figure out what the fuck is going on

i promise to be back tomorrow morning (should be about 12h from now?)

VOTE: osuka you're hammered

this post puts osuka at E-1, and is obviously not a real hammer. if he and osuka are partners, then what is the motivation for making this post? i can find one, but it's pretty convoluted; perhaps bugspray does this to:
1) distance himself from osuka while also
2) creating an opportunity for osuka to fakeclaim without needing to rely on the whim of a townie who's declared intent, and
3) stop momentum on an osuka wagon before it got to the point where an actual townie

could

declare intent

writing this out, it seems a whole lot more complex than anything else we've seen from bugspray. if this is what happened, i'd have to imagine it was osuka's idea. but why make such a risky fakeclaim gambit in the first place?

just

to take heat off the wagon in the wake of a PR claim? was he really formulating his incriminate-hem plan this far back? i have to jump through a lot of hoops to make this make sense, but it's been a long day and i'm very tired. maybe someone else can do a better job.

[InsidiousLemons]

i have to reevaluate this game.

when you're done, let me know if you still think hem scumslipped

[InsidiousLemons]

If nobody else claims something that can stop a kill, then osuka is not a good vote.

Also bugspray was on osuka's e-1 wagon

i have to say, i find dunnstral popping in here

just

to defend osuka, and not to comment on the flip, lack of night kill, hem, vfp, me, or

voice any other thoughts at all

, a little suspect.

while the lack of a counterclaim suggests that there are no protectives in a scum!osuka universe, that alone doesn't really dissuade me in the face of all the other evidence. especially not since, as far as i can see, osuka never even mentioned the lack of a counterclaim in the process of defending himself. you'd think an actual PR would point to that as evidence.

the point about bugspray being on osuka's wagon is a little better. for reference, here's the post where he votes:

that all said: i have no idea what the fuck the votecount is at and i'm about to go to a friend's house here so i'll be on later to figure out what the fuck is going on

i promise to be back tomorrow morning (should be about 12h from now?)

VOTE: osuka you're hammered

this post puts osuka at E-1, and is obviously not a real hammer. if he and osuka are partners, then what is the motivation for making this post? i can find one, but it's pretty convoluted; perhaps bugspray does this to:
1) distance himself from osuka while also
2) creating an opportunity for osuka to fakeclaim without needing to rely on the whim of a townie who's declared intent, and
3) stop momentum on an osuka wagon before it got to the point where an actual townie

could

declare intent

writing this out, it seems a whole lot more complex than anything else we've seen from bugspray. if this is what happened, i'd have to imagine it was osuka's idea. but why make such a risky fakeclaim gambit in the first place?

just

to take heat off the wagon in the wake of a PR claim? was he really formulating his incriminate-hem plan this far back? i have to jump through a lot of hoops to make this make sense, but it's been a long day and i'm very tired. maybe someone else can do a better job.

wouldn't the simple explanation be to distance

it's really not that complex lemons

i don't like how under the satellite gera and hyena are being right now

yeah you're right lol the explanation still makes sense if you just leave out points 2 and 3

okay i think we can safely disregard Dunn's point about bugs being on his wagon then because 880 could easily just be distancing

[InsidiousLemons]

If osuka flips TPR, we lynch Lemons. Town!Lemons will never be the NK if he'll be in the chopping block today and a push for his lynch can be pulled off today. We had much more townier folks that came out of Day 1 from bugs lynch. I think the explanation is that Lemons is the one who performed the NK.

If osuka flips scum, I won't be surprised. He didn't crumb. Yesterday's play was atrocious and points to scum. Today's play was atrocious and points to scum. His PR strategy did not make any bit of sense, and he doesn't even have a full grasp of who he did the night action on. And then, we consider if we still want to lynch Lemons or anyone else.

This is the ending of this day.

if osuka flips TPR then we flip the one person who's softcleared as a result? yeah, no. as far as i know, rolestops don't do anything to prevent outgoing actions, so if i was trying to perform the night kill i still would've been able to. why are you trying so hard to make me guilty by association even on a townflip? unless i'm misreading, this push for my lim tomorrow doesn't make any sense if osuka really is TPR

i would like to hold off on osuka's elimination until after he reevaluates, because even a fake reevaluation will give us more info to go on after the flip. agreed?

[InsidiousLemons]

your head isn't on the chopping block

Yeah but it read like you knew you were gonna look bad before the thread even opened.

well, yeah, i did. did you even read the end of the day yesterday? it was pretty obvious that i was gonna be a high value target today. an explanation for my behaviour was definitely warranted.

[InsidiousLemons]

i have to say, i find dunnstral popping in here

just

to defend osuka, and not to comment on the flip, lack of night kill, hem, vfp, me, or

voice any other thoughts at all

, a little suspect.

Seemed to work fine on day 1

what the fuck is this supposed to mean? you popped in once to tell us to unvote him after the claim, but other than that i can't see any examples of you posting

just

to defend another player. what even is your objective with this post, other than to gloat about how you've survived despite doing almost literally nothing all game?

[InsidiousLemons]

heading to work so i won't be able to post or read much for the next ~8 hours. don't end the day while i'm gone or i will be a very sour lemon

[InsidiousLemons]

so you just didn't bother to question why everyone has been freaking out over that exact distinction in terms for the past several pages?

[InsidiousLemons]

1377 is such a weird post from gerain. the formatting is kind of fucked up but i can still mostly read it, so sorry if i get some of this wrong.

he criticizes pretty much everyone's votes -- anya most heavily, it looks like, saying things like "this vote stinks" and accusing her of flip flopping, and yet at the end of the post he includes her as one of the top two towniest people. then he starts off a sentence with "People on the wagon whose votes i am not a fan of", but only mentions ivy. huh? the only explanation i can think of for this is that he was

trying

to find more people to cast shade on, but realized after looking back over his post and the general opinion that he was only really going to be able to get away with doing it to ivy.

he also for some reason comes to the conclusion that the bugspray lim was a fluke that no one really wanted to happen, which as hem points out, is demonstrably false. even by the end of the day, bugs was only ever 2nd or 3rd in line for a lim.

this post reads like he was 1) posting to post, 2) looking for people to push (before coming up short), and/or 3) trying to take towncred away from the people on the bugs wagon via his "bugs lim was a fluke" argument. other than this fallacious statement, and his ultimately toothless criticism of a couple of people's votes, he only really comes up with conclusions that others have already stated pages and pages ago.

gerain, can you shed some light on this? what was the point you were trying to make with that post?

[InsidiousLemons]

it looks so bad that it probably means t4 is town

i will now be calling him town4

this is kind of what i'm leaning towards re:1380 as well. t3 also has negative equity with bugs so i don't really think there's much here

[InsidiousLemons]

1385 builds on my own points so well that i really don't think there's anything that could convince me that osuka isn't scum here. i still kind of want to wait for him to get back in here for a last hurrah, but his "re-evaluation" is more than likely just an attempt to buy himself the time to figure out if there's any scenario in which he isn't absolutely fucked

[InsidiousLemons]

another votecount placeholder

yes both of them will get filled

hi can you please get around to this, and also stop waiting multiple hours to replace placeholders? votecounts are useful in retrospect but they're most useful as a way to track the gamestate as it's happening. i genuinely don't mean this with any hostility, it's just very hard to play this game when we almost never know the current votecount with certainty.

[InsidiousLemons]

just in case there's any doubt, i think vfp defended themself against my questions very poorly. i asked them repeatedly to give me a concrete scum motivation for umlaut's vote and they couldn't do it. contrast with this post from RotITGBSMoD (emphasis mine):

It's just a general feeling I'm not going to wallpost about it.

I'm not asking for a wall post, I'm asking for examples.

You can't claim that someone is scum hunting then just say it's a general feeling that they are scum hunting.

Someone either appearing as scum hunting or they aren't...

Give me 2 examples where Osuka is scum hunting.
That's not asking for a lot and it could even be the worthless "????" if you like.

it's not exactly the same thing, but in my mind there's just no way town!VFP makes such a weak and insubstantial push, especially since it's clear they know this variety of logic tends to come from scum.

[InsidiousLemons]

if osuka and VFP are partners, i have to admit it would be bold of them to vote hem together here, especially when they're the only 2 doing so. but to be fair nobody had no idea where anyone else's votes were at the time, and VFP calling out hem and then not voting him would've probably looked more suspicious anyway, so it's only a small amount of negative equity and i think VFP is still the most probable partner

kinda getting ahead of myself though since osuka hasn't even flipped

[InsidiousLemons]

*nobody had any idea

EBWOP

[InsidiousLemons]

re: 1410, the only point i stand by is that bugspray was trying to distance himself from you. so your defense against the suggestion that bugspray's distancing was your idea, while valid, is responding to a viewpoint that i no longer hold. there is one part of this post that i want to respond to though:

if i knew bugspray was scum and at risk of being lynched, why would i not hop on the dunnstral wagon to avoid a bugspray flip? why has nobody pointed that out? isn't that a strong associative?

let's make a timeline of your posts and see if this makes any sense

i much prefer hem over dunnstral, but i'll settle for dunn if there's no other viable wagon

you said this^ when dunnstral was at E-3

Dunn we all want to lynch you. I've counted. You'll be eliminated. I think it's better to claim now and leave some time for discussing your flip.

then monkey reiterated what you already knew, which was that dunnstral was the consensus for a lim

@lemons i still strongly prefer hem but i can settle for either dunn or ivy in no order of preference between the last two

then

you restated your support for a dunnstral elimination

if we didn't go for hem (worth noting that voicing secondary support for a likely wagon while leaving your vote on an unlikely one is a scum tactic)

then there's some conversation about hem's "scumslip" which i've cut out because it isn't relevant

i regret to inform everyone that i am heading to the bars so i'm not going to be sober for very long

just get on the wagon please VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

and then you poofed after this post, when it was looking pretty likely that dunnstral would be the lim.

so given that you voiced your support for a dunnstral elim multiple times, knew that dunn had enough votes to be eliminated, and saw that the general opinion was beginning to shift away from bugspray and in the direction of dunnstral... no. i don't think this is a strong associative, and i don't believe scum!you has any motivation (and, in fact, negative motivation) to throw yourself on the wagon when you could just as easily disappear from the thread with relative confidence that your partner would not be eliminated. sure, i guess you

could've

voted for dunnstral for extra safety, but that puts blood on your hands that scum!you would want to avoid. i don't really think you believe what you're saying here.

[InsidiousLemons]

okay i think we can safely disregard Dunn's point about bugs being on his wagon then because 880 could easily just be distancing

again - that's a shit way to distance myself from that slot. if i wanted to do it, first i wouldve done it myself, and second i wouldve done it much earlier

i don't think it's your way of distancing yourself from bugspray, i think it was bugspray's way of distancing themself from you. agreed that it's kind of a shit way to go about doing that, but given what we've seen from bugs otherwise, i wouldn't be surprised.

[InsidiousLemons]

side note: have any of you fucks asked yourselves how it is that you're so convinced i'm scum but there's been nearly zero resistance other than my own to the wagon that's been going on since the beginning of the game? if you're saying i'm being hardbussed right now that's somewhat understandable, even if very questionable because as scum you're fucked if d1 and d2 both flip red - but if you're saying i was being hardbussed on page 20, you're out of your fucking mind

- VFP is resistant to your wagon
- dunnstral is resistant to your wagon, and was on D1 as well
- bugspray was resistant to your wagon after the claim, and looking back, this is kind of overt distancing lol:

VOTE: unvote urgh unfortunately dunn is right here
my dislike for osuka is personal and i would love to see this slot yeeted regardless of alignment with no regard to how town would be more informed by the flip or the utility of a rolestopper but argh

do i have to mention the fact that one of these players is confscum and the other two are the ones who i've said multiple times are the most likely to be your partner? there's probably only one scum left, so yeah, it makes sense that there would only be mild resistance to your elimination at this point.

[InsidiousLemons]

okay that's fine - we're saying dunnstral-osuka is not a strong associative. assuming i'm scum, doesn't that make him likely to be town?

if so - why wouldn't i put my vote behind the dunn wagon if i felt the game shifting towards a bugspray lynch? i'd rather have blood on my hands than a dead scum partner, because then in the absolute worst case (bugspray lynched d2) we've gained an extra day. how do you justify me not doing that? it makes zero sense to keep tunneling hem because his wagon was already really unlikely compared to dunn and bugspray, _and_ that was before it really was a choice between dunnstral and bugspray

i believe you'd rather have blood on your hands than a dead scumpartner. what i

don't

believe is that you thought that was the choice you were faced with. what in the posts leading up to your disappearance that made you "[feel] the game shifting towards a bugspray [lim]"? it's pretty clear to me that the general order of preference at that point was dunnstral > bug based on these posts from a few pages before the hem scumslip debacle, among others:

You guys wanna do Dunn?

I'm also game for Egix, but I still need to reevaluate him

Dunn I'm okay with voting. If Osuka is scum I could see Dunn being their buddy.
If my vote is wasted on Ivy I'll move it but I just feel like this isn't a bad spot to push.

To be fair, my not lim pool is only really you, Anya, Lemons, T3, Gera, and Osuka today.

i could go for dunn but with umlaut maybe getting off of v/la today i want to use as much of the 22 hours we have left as possible. if we hit 12 hours with no further content from ivy/umlaut/dunn etc then i'll compromise on the dunn lim

ps cook deadline countdowns in your VCs are great too kiss kiss mwah thank you

VOTE: dunnstral

[InsidiousLemons]

votecount #7, day one

Osuka (6) [E-1]: bugspray, Ivyeo, Insidious, VFP, geraintm, humaneatingmonkey

geraintm (1): Umlaut
InsidiousLemons (1): Egix96
bugspray (3): Anya, T3, Dunnstral
humaneatingmonkey (1): osuka

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to flip.
(expired on 2021-05-23 09:33:00) until deadline.

i have to concede this is pushing it though. if you're partners with bugs and VFP i don't really see them both being such early adopters. hm.

[InsidiousLemons]

okay that's fine - we're saying dunnstral-osuka is not a strong associative. assuming i'm scum, doesn't that make him likely to be town?

yeah, this goes against my earlier theory that there is partner equity between you and dunn. i have said for a while that i think VFP is much more likely, but see above.

@everyone if osuka + vfp are scum here do we really think the votecount i quoted above is a possibility? and if the answer is no and VFP is town, then osuka's point about there being little resistance to his wagon is a fair one.

[InsidiousLemons]

mmm actually no dunn can still be your partner here. just because it isn't a strong associative in a scum direction doesn't mean it is a strong associative in a town direction. if a dunn lim wasn't looking preventable and the alternative was your other partner (bugspray), then sticking with the hem vote makes sense. if questioned about why you weren't on the dunn wagon, you could counter that you said you'd vote him and only didn't do so because you weren't in the thread when he got close to a lim.

not saying this is definitely what happened, but i don't think you not voting dunn makes him town automatically

[InsidiousLemons]

yeah i'm still totally fine with an osuka lim here. VFP being on osuka's E-1 wagon on D1 gives him more negative equity, and if that makes the scumteam bugs-osuka-dunn (not sure yet), then that resolves this:

it makes zero sense to keep tunneling hem because his wagon was already really unlikely compared to dunn and bugspray

[InsidiousLemons]

i would like to hold off on osuka's elimination until after he reevaluates, because even a fake reevaluation will give us more info to go on after the flip. agreed?

assume i'm scum - why does anything i say hold weight? can you even take anything said by scum at face value?

i dunno man, you're saying lots of shit right now that will be valuable information either way. even if we can't take it at face value (although we

can

attempt to sift through the bullshit after the fact if you flip red), we can have the types of conversations we're having now, which is actively working towards a gamesolve.

[InsidiousLemons]

i think my solve now is actually leaning towards osuka > dunnstral.

- vfp is starting to make less sense to me for reasons stated above (voting with osuka atm -equity, voting with bugs

for

osuka yesterday ---equity)
- dunn keeps only coming in here to defend osuka (though he tries to throw me a bone with an impotent "voting lemons would be a mistake" -- no one is actively pushing me for a lim right now)
- osuka softpushed dunnstral in that he added his vocal support, but avoided voting for either him or bugspray

i might've said more on the subject previously but this is off the top of my head. am i wearing tinfoil or does this solve actually make pretty good sense?

[InsidiousLemons]

there was some resistance to the hem wagon that was just not there with dunnstral. i voted and immediately after two more votes came along, which is almost exactly what happened with dunn (one vote came and another immediately followed).

am i misreading? these two statements seem at odds with each other.

[InsidiousLemons]

the resistance to hem's wagon came because it was a piss-poor push, which you yourself already admitted in 1411. as for the lack thereof on dunn's wagon, we were coming up against the deadline and were scrambling to prevent a no-lim. it's probable there was scum on the wagon if dunn is town (bugspray accounts for 1 already), but i'm not convinced he is and at this point we're getting ahead of ourselves. we need your flip to start clearing the wifom.

i would like to hold off on osuka's elimination until after he reevaluates, because even a fake reevaluation will give us more info to go on after the flip. agreed?

assume i'm scum - why does anything i say hold weight? can you even take anything said by scum at face value?

i dunno man, you're saying lots of shit right now that will be valuable information either way. even if we can't take it at face value (although we

can

attempt to sift through the bullshit after the fact if you flip red), we can have the types of conversations we're having now, which is actively working towards a gamesolve.

here's a follow-up question: why would scum osuka be working towards a gamesolve? if i flip red, how do you know anything i say wasn't meant to throw you off?

you're... not, really. you're asking socratic questions to try to shake my confidence in you flipping scum, and it's backfiring because i'm actually bothering to analyze what you're saying. you keep raising this point about the possibility of you being scum who's trying to throw me off (which is exactly what i think you are), and it feels like you trying to sow seeds of doubt in the conclusions i'm making now for when you do flip red.

i think i've gotten as much as i'm going to out of this 1v1. anything more would just be polluting the thread. i'm ready to flip this now

[InsidiousLemons]

okay that's fine - we're saying dunnstral-osuka is not a strong associative. assuming i'm scum, doesn't that make him likely to be town?

yeah, this goes against my earlier theory that there is partner equity between you and dunn. i have said for a while that i think VFP is much more likely, but see above.

@everyone if osuka + vfp are scum here do we really think the votecount i quoted above is a possibility? and if the answer is no and VFP is town, then osuka's point about there being little resistance to his wagon is a fair one.

if you think vfp is more likely then let's flip vfp

for the record i think he's probably going to flip green but i _know_ i'm going to flip green so really for me he is infinitely more likely to be scum

this is just sad

[InsidiousLemons]

it's super wifomy and maybe not even worth considering, but it

does

kinda feel like osuka's "how can you trust anything i say" was meant to make me think dunn was scum based on these posts

okay that's fine - we're saying dunnstral-osuka is not a strong associative. assuming i'm scum, doesn't that make him likely to be town?

if so - why wouldn't i put my vote behind the dunn wagon if i felt the game shifting towards a bugspray lynch? i'd rather have blood on my hands than a dead scum partner, because then in the absolute worst case (bugspray lynched d2) we've gained an extra day. how do you justify me not doing that? it makes zero sense to keep tunneling hem because his wagon was already really unlikely compared to dunn and bugspray, _and_ that was before it really was a choice between dunnstral and bugspray

mmm actually no dunn can still be your partner here. just because it isn't a strong associative in a scum direction doesn't mean it is a strong associative in a town direction. if a dunn lim wasn't looking preventable and the alternative was your other partner (bugspray), then sticking with the hem vote makes sense. if questioned about why you weren't on the dunn wagon, you could counter that you said you'd vote him and only didn't do so because you weren't in the thread when he got close to a lim.

not saying this is definitely what happened, but i don't think you not voting dunn makes him town automatically

i kind of was on the thread when we were very close to a dunnstral exec though. my last post, when i voted hem, was when dunn was at e-3, and only hours later he was at e-1 - can you really imagine a universe where that exec _doesn't_ go through if my vote is on there?

there was some resistance to the hem wagon that was just not there with dunnstral. i voted and immediately after two more votes came along, which is almost exactly what happened with dunn (one vote came and another immediately followed). that shows two things: 1, it would be stupid for me, as scum, to not shift to dunnstral (if town), and 2, that may indicate that the dunnstral wagon actually had scum on it

so for that reason alone i'm somewhat inclined to believe that dunnstral may be town. the only reason that slot is still alive is because of the bugspray flashtrain

[InsidiousLemons]

dunn is right that both mafia being informed might point to 3 scum rather than 4. it is true that a traitor typically indicates an extra mafioso, but in this case i'm not so sure. it could go either way

it's also just incredibly strange to me that with humaneatingmonkey being on both scum wagons, he's still alive today. i can't imagine he would actually hard bus 2 partners right off the bat though so this has to be scum making some weird gambit, right? why would you leave a conftown alive in favour of killing some random townie? did they think they caught a PR crumb?

[InsidiousLemons]

i still think it's more likely dunn than not

VOTE: dunnstral

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: unvote urgh unfortunately dunn is right here
my dislike for osuka is personal and i would love to see this slot yeeted regardless of alignment with no regard to how town would be more informed by the flip or the utility of a rolestopper but argh

also this is not really game related but the fact that bugspray is actually this bad at distancing is hysterical to me

god love ya bugsy

[InsidiousLemons]

yeah this reads like 2 tunneled town to me. the mason gambit from T3 was confusing but i think he's town for it

anya can you explain your thinking re: egix? i've had a really tough time reading that slot all game

[InsidiousLemons]

also i'm leaning towards a massclaim here, scum already have to choose between

1) vfp (pt cop claim)
2) hem (mason claim)
3) anya (conftown)

subtract one of these if either of the claims are fake but imo knowing the second partner here for the purposes of verifying hem is well worth tacking an extra player onto the end of an already lengthy NK priority list, right?

[InsidiousLemons]

The more I think it over, the more 3.5 scum seems wrong. The problem is, scum can win on 2 mis lims alone, and I feel like that is taken into considering when approving.
The only way possibly is if the traitor doesn't know the scum team, but I'm not familiar if that has to be known in normals or not for traitors?

traitor has to know the scum team for it to be normal and i know that because i caught major heat last game for forgetting it like 3 times in a row

[InsidiousLemons]

from the mafiawiki article

A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:

• is Mafia-aligned
  
• knows the identities of all of the Mafia team
  
  
• identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
  
• cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
  
• is endgamed if all other Mafia are dead
  
• gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops

[InsidiousLemons]

unless there are multiple mafia factions (exceedingly unlikely in a 12p) they would know each other's identities, yes. "all of the mafia team" would include the second traitor. but if there are 4 scum, that makes the scum:town ratio 1:3, which is ridiculously high especially when scum have PRs and are informed

[InsidiousLemons]

claim vt

claims so far + confirmed traitor are looking good to support the existence of a PT cop + mason pair, and i can believe the ivy crumbs. i really don't think they're scumbuds because as i've said, 1:3 is a pretty hefty ratio especially for such a weak-looking townside. the setup dunn linked was indeed run as a normal, so

if

there were 2 traitors they actually probably wouldn't know each other's identities. this further supports ivy+hem as masons rather than scumbuds, because for there to be 4 scum in a 12p i'd probably imagine 2 traitors (of which one would have to be either ivy or hem in a both-scum world)

i don't believe that VFP would think osuka is town because of setup speculation

they said "there's 1 reason i feel he could be town". that doesn't sound like a townread to me, it sounds like someone who has a doubt in their mind and thus thinks there are better options for the day's lim. i think you're confbiased.

I have information that makes me doubt both of the above [editor's note: VFP and hem] is town

would also like to hear what this is, especially in light of dunn reaffirming his vt claim

anya can you explain your thinking re: egix? i've had a really tough time reading that slot all game

and i'd still like an answer on this, i have no strong reason to believe egix is town but i don't believe i've seen a substantive scum case for him yet

[InsidiousLemons]

Final VC, Day Two

humaneatingmonkey (2): osuka, VFP
InsidiousLemons (1): Ivyeo
T3 (1): Egix96
VFP (1): Dunnstral

osuka (6) [HAMMER]: InsidiousLemons, Anya, Ivyeo, Umlaut, T3, humaneatingmonkey

With 11 alive it takes 6 to flip.

VFP is town.
Dunnstral is town.
LemonsI think was a townread from earlier I don't remember their play this game at all LOL.
Anya is town.
Also @MOD Ivyeo is counted twice in the eod votecount.
Umlaut was town.
hem is town.

Scum is between Ivy or Egix.

why did you leave out gerain? and what are you basing your townread of dunnstral on?

[InsidiousLemons]

bold of you to call 804 a push. it's true he never unvoted, but is that your only reason?

also gerain hammered after egix had already declared intent (1122). i really don't think that clears him at all. again, is this your only reason?

it's hard for me to believe that there's scum motivation behind townreading 2 of the most likely lims when there's likely only one scum left anyway, but your reasoning feels really arbitrary

[InsidiousLemons]

conversely, do you have any reason other than PoE for thinking egix is scum?

[InsidiousLemons]

okay let's have a look at who's left other than me

softcleared:

VFP

- claimed PT cop

Anya

- cleared via PT cop; second traitor unlikely imo

Ivyeo

- claimed mason

humaneatingmonkey

- claimed mason

so PoE leaves us with:

T3

- claimed vt

geraintm

- claimed vt

Dunnstral

- claimed vt

Egix96

- unclaimed

i've found most of these players difficult to read so it's hard to order them, but my attempt would be

geraintm > egix96 > dunnstral > t3

starting to lean away from dunnstral pretty significantly due to:

• the traitor flip meaning he had little reason to defend osuka if scum
  
• timing of his vt claim
  
• early adoption of the bugs wagon
  
• osuka's seeming attempt to convince me dunn was his partner

i neglected to properly consider the implications of the traitor flip on my dunn read when i voted him earlier today. egix as PoE is kinda starting to make more sense to me but i'd still like to know if anyone has hard evidence

UNVOTE:

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: geraintm

cook can you fill in the votecounts please

[InsidiousLemons]

claiming right off the bat is a gambit like any other. you even admitted you've done it before, which weakens its effectiveness as a tell considerably. the fact you're pointing to it now as proof of your innocence doesn't help your case.

[InsidiousLemons]

right now, i have nothing to offer the game except my claim. i find it incredibly hard/impossible to find scum day 1. i do try and get better as the game goes on though...

for someone who fell back on this defense repeatedly, does it strike anyone else as strange that the overwhelming majority of gerain's posts are from... D1? look at his ISO. he's literally posted 11 times since EoD1 and we're on D3 now. does that seem like someone "trying to get better as the game goes on"?

gerain, you've managed pretty consistently to fly under the radar so far, so i think it's past due that you get your fair share of scrutiny and pressure. the only real thing going for you seems to be that you hammered bugspray, which happened after it was very clear egix was going to do it anyway. got other reasons i should believe you're town?

[InsidiousLemons]

VFP isn't the kill N1 because of the no-kill gambit. VFP isn't the kill N2 because they came under heavy fire D2, and what better way to lock in a PR as the lim than to leave them alive after they softclaim?

i disagree that osuka would

necessarily

have been the kill N1 for similar reasons, but rolestopper is a very strong PR and i suppose there are several signs that point to the mafia knowing osuka was their traitor (bugspray's rather obvious distancing being one of them)

p-edit why are we back to assuming 3.5 scum in a 12p

[InsidiousLemons]

i cant say with certainty that the above is what actually happened, but it seems plausible to me that VFP might be left alive in hopes of getting him limmed today, no?

[InsidiousLemons]

i'm considering it but not heavily. i'm not great with balance either but this townside doesn't look strong enough to me to merit a 4th member of the mafia. fruit vendor casts doubt on friendly neighbour, PT cop can get a false innocent and two false guilties, and both the masons and the friendly neighbour can only clear themselves through tying themselves to another player. if you're a setup designer, does this make you go "hmm, town is looking pretty beefy, i should probably add another scum"? i think it's much more likely that the answer is the reverse.

p-edit: @1624

[InsidiousLemons]

my thoughts? i don't get it

[InsidiousLemons]

okay? am i being thick? what does that have to do with anything?

[InsidiousLemons]

i'll tell you later why this makes no goddamn sense hem. for now, read the nutrition facts on the back of a cereal box.

just in case you were trying to send me some kind of coded message, i actually went back and reread the whole article (you'll recall that i quoted it myself earlier this game), and the only thing that stuck out to me was this, which only further supports my own theory that there are 2.5 rather than 3.5 scum:

Note that if there is a Traitor in the game, this implies that the main Mafia group is undersized by one.

[InsidiousLemons]

what do you mean by "the fact osuka was human"? at what point do you think scum became aware osuka was one of their own, if ever?

[InsidiousLemons]

i disagree. as i said, pt cop can get as many false guilties as they can true guilties. i think the setup was intended to create wifom in the later days via fruit vendor/FN interplay and PT cop/mason interplay, and we managed to outpace it by offing 2 scum early.

p-edit this is dumb we don't need to lim you

[InsidiousLemons]

if i were to believe VFP's claim here, I 100% think there's 2 more scum.

if there are 4 scum out of 12 players with no protective roles, that means that if town miseliminates once, we're in ELo (6v4)

with no way of knowing it

and thus no impetus not to eliminate. miseliminate once more, and we instantly lose. with a PT cop who can get 2 false guilties and 1 false innocent, a friendly neighbour who isn't allowed to reveal himself until N2, a mafia rolestopper who can theoretically nullify any of these actions, and a pair of masons who can only be confirmed via each other's elimination, does this sound like a setup that ever passes review?

[InsidiousLemons]

VFP is never the correct choice here. i don't believe ivy or monkey are ever valid either. we lim in {lemons, gerain, dunn, T3, egix}

[InsidiousLemons]

addendum: 1658 assumes scum doesn't hit their traitors either night. i still think it makes a valid point, because even with a random choice there's only a 2/9 chance N1 and a 2/7 chance N2 that scum would indeed hit one of their traitors.

[InsidiousLemons]

In that case, why would the mafia be so underpowered? There's multiple non-rand ways to confirm yourself as town here.

i like, adamantly believe VFP is town here. i don't see why you guys are so determined that this is the winning play. scum were informed of PTs, have a rolestopper who could halt checks without having to risk stopping the NK, a fruit vendor who, if they successfully passed themself off as town, could cast extreme doubt on an even-night FN claim, and who knows whether the final scum has a non-factional ability as well. i don't see a compelling case for why PT cop is so unrealistic given the rest of the claims

[InsidiousLemons]

who do you think it is if VFP does flip PT cop?

[InsidiousLemons]

you may be right that i'm overestimating the value of a fruit vendor. this is my first game featuring one, so i'm not really familiar with how their night actions tend to be interpreted.

so then would you replace PT cop with VT? i feel like it doesn't make sense for the rolestopper's only utility to be in preventing an even-night friendly neighbour's target from receiving the message

[InsidiousLemons]

fine. a useless fruit vendor does increase the chances of an equally useless rolestopper if the townside is as simple as mason pair + even-night FN. in a sense their utility is in their uselessness, by throwing off the town's attempts at solving by mechanics upon their flip. if the last game i played is any indication, the NRG certainly has a soft spot for setups that try to mitigate mechanical solves.

i don't think we're going to gain any new information on the others by leaving time for them to weigh in, and i agree that by play alone, VFP is more likely scum than not. here goes nothing.

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: VFP

[InsidiousLemons]

cook you better serve us up a hot batch of [Game Over!]

[InsidiousLemons]

HEYOOOO lol VFP my heart SANK reading through page 69 god damn you

also anya you sneaky devil

well played all around, this was a good one

[InsidiousLemons]

oh also

[InsidiousLemons]

i will also likely not be around for the next ~24 hours. super important audition today. wish me luck!

I GOT INTO THEATRE SCHOOL! and my top choice no less ^^

got the call a couple of days ago but i don't like posting non game related stuff when discussion is heated so i decided to save it for the postgame. it was you folks' well wishes that pushed me over the edge, i'm sure!

[InsidiousLemons]

i keep rolling VT! i'm itching to flex my scum muscle, my acting skills have definitely increased since my last (only?) scum game at 14. no idea if i'll be someone to watch out for but hopefully so.

i half-seriously wonder sometimes whether we haven't had a well-known actor or two among our ranks in this site's 18 year history, hiding behind some unassuming screen name. who knows, maybe someday i'll get my name in lights lol

[InsidiousLemons]

it's bittersweet though -- the high intensity of the program means i'll probably have to be on hiatus from september to april for the next few years. gonna continue to enjoy once again being a part of this wonderful community for the summer months, at least. i'll miss y'all when i'm not around

[InsidiousLemons]

yeah tbh i don't know if i could handle the stress of being a year-round member lol. haven't played almost any meatworld mafia but a bunch of my hometown friends are into secret hitler. i'm sure i could convince them