Newbie 2064 - (GG)

[catboi]

Hey all! (o´ω`o)ﾉ

I've read about half of the game already when I was waiting on confirmation of getting the slot, have some preliminary reads but want to catch up all the way before I get into everything. I do have some commentary I want to make on recent posts, though.

[catboi]

I don't understand the sudden switch from nobody believing me regarding a JacksonVirgo/Dum pair in day 1, then all of a sudden, Ninja and Orctin both going with it.

Join me in the JacksonVirgo wagon

First of all, why were you so eager to push an elimination on an inactive slot that can't defend itself?

[catboi]

Jackson - at this point i'm looking at changing my opinion of him - I played game with him prior to this so had bit of bias to liking the player - but the frustration tactic day 1 to back off the attacks on themselves then the looking to opt out make me think we have a scum who basically have given up defending themselves now

Dum - I've been leary about Dum since game started - the whole Hammer trap he tried to play was just a bad play, and moreso when i had clearly made my position known before then and it was obvious there was no trap as the votes had been posted - this was a weak attempt to make me appear as if i was just trying to do something that i had already shown not to do - end day early.

HEM - aggressive player, just goes right out after people, attacking and going after reads which seem to be singular minded but strong played in your positions. If i were to look for scum tells here i would have to put HEM and James together in a pairing where they counter each other at points to keep the unpaired appearance. I would think the quick Voting HEM does is also bad, as could be a scum tell to be the early person on a vote, see if it hold ground by trying to get others to go along with it and so as to not appear as a late comer to the train.

James - for the most part i read as town, I like his questioning nature to look at things first to form an opinion. I haven't seen a pairing yet with him but that would basically make him a good pairing with myself if i were looking at scum read pair from outside the looking glass.

Nav/Ninja - Nav - i think here's a high likelyhood of pushing the scum look on a player gameplay, that again i was biased to as i played with before (JV), to push him to that breaking point some people have. Nav is playing the excellent townie role, and have most people believing he's town, which if most people think one thing it's the job of the last person to ask if it's true, i wonder if there is perhaps a great scum player lurking here. Ninja - This the Ying to Nav's Yang - Ninja is thoughtful - looking at Both HEM and JV and trying to read between the lines of the two of them looking for those clues others might of missed. But overall i think Nav/Ninja seem to both fit in the same mold here. I would think if JV flips Town - one of the two of them is scum.

Second, can anyone else tell me the huge, glaring problem with this reads list?

[catboi]

Jackson - at this point i'm looking at changing my opinion of him - I played game with him prior to this so had bit of bias to liking the player - but the frustration tactic day 1 to back off the attacks on themselves then the looking to opt out make me think we have a scum who basically have given up defending themselves now

Dum - I've been leary about Dum since game started - the whole Hammer trap he tried to play was just a bad play, and moreso when i had clearly made my position known before then and it was obvious there was no trap as the votes had been posted - this was a weak attempt to make me appear as if i was just trying to do something that i had already shown not to do - end day early.

HEM - aggressive player, just goes right out after people, attacking and going after reads which seem to be singular minded but strong played in your positions.

If i were to look for scum tells here i would have to put HEM and James together in a pairing where they counter each other at points to keep the unpaired appearance.

I would think the quick Voting HEM does is also bad, as could be a scum tell to be the early person on a vote, see if it hold ground by trying to get others to go along with it and so as to not appear as a late comer to the train.

James - for the most part i read as town, I like his questioning nature to look at things first to form an opinion.

I haven't seen a pairing yet with him

but that would basically make him a good pairing with myself if i were looking at scum read pair from outside the looking glass.

Nav/Ninja - Nav - i think here's a high likelyhood of pushing the scum look on a player gameplay, that again i was biased to as i played with before (JV), to push him to that breaking point some people have. Nav is playing the excellent townie role, and have most people believing he's town, which if most people think one thing it's the job of the last person to ask if it's true, i wonder if there is perhaps a great scum player lurking here. Ninja - This the Ying to Nav's Yang - Ninja is thoughtful - looking at Both HEM and JV and trying to read between the lines of the two of them looking for those clues others might of missed. But overall i think Nav/Ninja seem to both fit in the same mold here. I would think if JV flips Town - one of the two of them is scum.

Second, can anyone else tell me the huge, glaring problem with this reads list?

That part?

That is actually not what I was thinking of, but that's an extremely good catch. Major points for being observant.

[catboi]

That's cause there's 2 ways to look at things - first was from a HEM View - and if HEM was scum - then who would i put with him - James fit that line of thought because of their counterpoints. When i came to James i Look from another angle, If i was to read James as scum, I think honestly a much wider scope of who's with him because his place is different,

So your looking at two angles - one from the Hem angle - who to pair with him - the other from the James angle - and who would pair with him. I dont read them the same way but view it as two totally different situation so you cant just automatically put one with the other in looking both ways

This is gibberish. How is it you could see person A being teamed with person B if they are scum, but if you think of person B as scum you don't see person A as a partner?

Additionally, this is contradicting what you said in your reads list - in there you said you had a hard time seeing a partner for James, but here you're suddenly saying there's a much wider scope of people who could be scum with James?

[catboi]

I am through page 16 but it's getting late and I'm tired, should catch up fully during the day tomorrow. Decently readable game, which is nice - the last few newbies I've played I really struggled for reads but I'm not having that problem here.

[catboi]

But Cat i look enjoy how your suddenly creating a target to draw away the attention your former self JV had on him trying to push to someone else - it's a solid play on your part. I'm sorry to say it doesn't clear the issue others had of looking at a JV elimination. Perhaps you might help the others understand better why is is your not scum. I had read JV myself as town for most of Day 1 - it's more what others have pointed out that have cause me to second guess that original thought. Again, trying to look at things from different angles.

What distinguishes "trying to create a target" versus trying to look for scum? The way you're describing it,

any

attack on someone else on my part is survivalistic in nature, which is complete nonsense - it's using the idea that people were suspicious of JV to preemptively discredit me. I'm simply calling attention to a list I found to be extremely suspect.
Further, if my goal were to survive by pushing someone else, do you think I'd call you in particular out when there were plenty of people who seem to be under more suspicion? The idea doesn't track. I haven't even fully explained my reads yet but I'm sensing an over-defensiveness to this mindset.

How, exactly, do you expect me to "help others understand why I'm not scum"? I am not JacksonVirgo, I have read almost none of their posts, I can't defend their actions and frankly I do not care why people were scumreading them. I have done almost nothing in the game so it's not like I can defend myself in any regard. But that's not important to me. What's important is reading through the game and finding who's scum, and trying to communicate that to the other players. The idea that my first move should be defending myself when I have no means of doing so is completely backwards. I'm going to scumhunt, I'm going to tell people my reads, and then after all I'm going to try to persuade them to see my viewpoint - getting my reads out is ultimately way more important than survival.

[catboi]

Second, can anyone else tell me the huge, glaring problem with this reads list?

IIoA

This isn't quite what I was getting at, but it's a significant problem I had with a lot of his earlier posts and was fairly surprised to not see mention of it from anyone.

What bothered me the most is that he's seemingly leaving himself open to vote almost anyone - 5/6 of the reads are explanations for why someone

could

be scum, and only James makes it out as a townread. I'm a super paranoid player, but that just doesn't strike me as believable. It doesn't feel like the process of someone trying to narrow the game into who is/is not scum, but rather someone who wants to be able to justify a vote on anyone if that's the way the wind is blowing. The whole thing is extremely scummy to me, and fits with a general trend where orctin doesn't really appear to scumhunting but instead just makes himself open to vote the popular target at the moment, as happened with micc and fizz raab.

[catboi]

okay catboi. i like where you're getting at. VOTE: orctin

BTW, do you mind explaining why you townread orctin initially in 77?

[catboi]

Right, fully caught up. I tend to play loose in my catchups and not take detailed notes (and in this case, I wasn't even sure I'd be playing in the game until I was halfway through) so this is going to trend more toward a summary than responding to specific posts for the most part.

I've got a very strong town read on

navigatorv

. For a new player, the surest towntell is actually scumhunting, and I see that quite a bit in naviagatorv's posts, there's a ton of analyzing and trying to look for suspect things, stuff like them going back and rereading the game on their own and posting notes on everyone just to try to get a fresh perspective/look for things they missed speaks to a very proactive mindset, I'd be extremely impressed if they were able to play like this as scum in what is apparently their first game ever. I also felt like 297 is the type of post that is far more likely to come from newbie town, the "eliminate me if you have to" mindset and the willingness to self-sacrifice is indicative of a townie who doesn't think them dying will be harmful, scum don't tend to make that play on the off chance someone calls their bluff and as I said, since this is navigatorv's first game I wouldn't expect them to be making that sort of gambit, especially since there wasn't that much in the way of actual pressure on them at that point in time.


I've also got a town read on

JamesTheNames

. There's a lot of digging at people and trying to spot out contradictions in their reasoning, there again seems to be a decent level of depth of thought here I would expect would be very difficult for a newer player to fake. Even the stuff where he finds reasons to suspect other players more but gets hung up on the idea of a JV/Dum team feels like the type of thing a newer town player does, where they get overly caught up in theorizing based on pre-flip associatives. That type of theorizing isn't good because it can often lead you down false paths that get busted up if you're wrong on a single read, but I understand the temptation, I still get into doing it myself from time to time even though I should know better. Still, the mindset itself is geared toward scumhunting I think, and were he actually just trying to push a bad case as scum I'd expect something more along the lines of calling two people individually scummy and then trying to find reasons to pair them together, rather than what he did, which was call certain people scummy but go against those reads because he thought he'd found a team that made sense. I also think him backing down and re-evaluating on his JV tunnel is townie, before I replaced in he'd have had ample cause to continue pushing JV and the refusal to do so looks like a genuine read shift rather than a tactical one.

full disclosure: I started skipping some of his posts that were colored in replies inside quote tags. That type of formatting is incredibly hard to read and I would advise finding a way to reply to people that's more readable, as most players are incredibly likely to tune out that sort of exchange. I might go back to those parts at some point if I feel they're pertinent but for now I'm comfortable enough slotting him as town based on his other posts.


I've got a weak town read on

Dum

, owed more or less entirely to his weird E-1 gambit, as it seems entirely like the sort of bizarre off the wall play a new player tries to catch scum, I wouldn't expect a newer player to make such an attention-grabbing play solely as an attempt to get townread when it's far more likely to get them attacked for being weird (as mostly happened here). It's also entirely dependent on someone being unaware enough to try to hammer without actually checking to see if it's E-1, and as scum there would be much less reason to expect any townie would try to vote micc while ignoring dum's bolded underlined statement about E-1, just to fall into his "trap". So I lean much more toward it being a genuine attempt at a fancy play from town rather than a scum trick, as I'd expect the play of a newer scum player to be much less complicated

Otherwise the slot has been inactive/afk (and is well past due for a prod, which I messaged the mod about), so I wouldn't call this a fully confident townread owing to lack of content but I've not really much interest in voting here at all.


I'm null leaning towards scum on

NinjaStore

. When reading through his posts didn't make a strong impression on their own, some of getting worked up about an early E-2 felt like it could be overcautious newbie town who gets too worried about things that are standard play, but that's not a strong read. Some of his analysis trends toward the questionable side, 241 is mainly concerned with drawing associations between people, but unlike with what James was doing, he seems to not actually get around to many reasons why this is actually scummy? he's mainly attacking navigatorv for saything they don't mind if they're eliminated, which isn't scummy but is the sort of thing i could see a newer scum player picking on. the rest of it is just drawing harmless associations and saying they could be teamed? the immediate back down in 271 because navigator started wall posting doesn't sit quite right either, it feels like he realized the target he picked was too difficult to tangle with and went with the easier vote on micc at the time, the way he says "It doesn't exonerate you" feels like an unwillingness to relinquish the scumread there, although he does concede to navigator looking townish later. after that he gets somewhat light on analysis, he contributes shade on fizz raab in 396 by attacking her for defending herself, and attacks JV in 517 for "interesting tone" and a fairly innocuously worded phrase.

That being said I

could

see this being the work of a newer player who's not used to forming reads as town and ends up overly focused on sort of trivial bits of language so this doesn't feel like a slam dunk read but the overall level of scumhunting doesn't feel very strong.

I'm ambivalent towards

humaneatingmonkey

. I couldn't necessarily point to anything he said that was glaringly bad but his overall play felt a bit sideliney and geared toward targets that were either lhf or blatantly self-destructing. I had him as a pocket scumread coming into the game because some of his posts with regard to orctin felt rather shifty and he seemed to be minimizing attention on orctin while directing people's focus elsewhere, but I don't want to get too deep into preflip associatives. 558 about Dum is a bit of a head scratcher because he seems to be implying it's scummy for Dum to have fallen off in activity, rather than just being a case of someone not having enough time for the game. The townread on ninjastore today is a bit of a headscratcher as well in how loose/easy it is, feelsa disproportionate level of confidence for the reasoning behind it. Didn't like the way he was pushing JV but I sort of expected scum-him to continue tunneling me on my entry to the game if I presented myself as a threat but he agreed with me on orctin pretty quickly, he's either town or a very pre-emptive busser. I guess ultimately my feeling is while there's maybe only a few spots in his posting that strike me as odd there isn't anything I would say is necessarily obvtown and out of the scum range of an experienced player.

I've got an incredibly strong scumread on

orctin

. To start off, his 64 which got read as "helpful" is pure information over analysis, he's simply describing every other player but makes no conclusions toward anyone's alignment. I hate to bring up 111 since it was discussed so much, but that post really did look quite bad. so much of orctin's defense after that post was that he

could

have hammered Micc earlier and didn't, but...he never actually addresses whether 111 was meant as a hammer? And the thing is, the way it's written, it absolutely

looks

like it was intended as a hammer - he says he's given enough time and starts talking about micc's flip, which very strongly implies he thought the flip was going to happen after that post. additionally, he says he "sat back long enough" after the post where he could have hammered micc but is still not seeing him as town, but...only one IRL day passed between 64 and 111. Micc only posted a handful of times. orctin didn't try to question him at all. There's basically no indication orctin cared or was trying to figure out Micc's alignment. the defense that he could have hammered earlier doesn't hold water either, hammering on page 3 the second someone got run up would get you autovoted day 2 and orctin absolutely knows this, he was just making a show of holding back.

326 is his next significant reads list, and...it's also not very good? he drops a few town reads without reasoning, and then the rest is simply...describing what people are doing. The closest he gets to a scum read is ninja, I guess? but his reasons are just that ninja's following the train of thoughts of other people. fizz is "reactive" and "finding place to slip in with others". He makes a comment that james and nav are going against each other but doesn't actually conclude anything about james's alignment. Ultimately, he just votes fizz because fizz is the default wagon, he never really gives good reason for scumreading her at all, just says he's okay with going there.

The opener to today (578) is also bad, it reads entirely like play by play commentary where he's just describing things that are going on and drawing basically no conclusions from it. The readslist in 596, as previously described, is extremely scummy because orctin is seemingly leaving himself open to vote anyone and contradicts his own reasoning within his list - it reads like he's making it up as he goes along rather than having genuine thoughts on the game.

[catboi]

hnnnnnnnnnnng it feels good to make a wallpost~

VOTE: orctin

[catboi]

full disclosure: I started skipping some of his posts that were colored in replies inside quote tags. That type of formatting is incredibly hard to read and I would advise finding a way to reply to people that's more readable, as most players are incredibly likely to tune out that sort of exchange. I might go back to those parts at some point if I feel they're pertinent but for now I'm comfortable enough slotting him as town based on his other posts.

Sorry about that, this is the first forum I've been on with coloured text options, I'll try to make things clearer in a different way for future posts.

No problem, Fushi~

Part of the learning experience for newbie games is learning how to communicate effectively, and that includes formatting your posts in a legible way. While a dedication to comment on literally everything is admirable, prolonged back and forth quote stripes between two people will tend to quickly get tuned out by most people in games because they won't have the patience for it. I personaly feel it's okay to reply in a block rather than responding to every line individually, although you should do what works best for you.

[catboi]

Well if you eliminate me going to be an interesting next day for rest of yall trying to figure out how a scum push went thru so easy.

Is this not a scum slip or am I misinterpreting "scum push"?

I think he's trying to imply the wagon on him is being pushed by scum. It's not a slip, but it's a weak appeal to emotions that doesn't really sway my opinion on orctin. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[catboi]

I don't see that ever being a play between teammates in a newbie game o(^・x・^)o

[catboi]

Like, what's the goal supposed to be? they both just draw a bunch of unnecessary attention to themselves, even if you would say the idea was to make dum look good, it still puts orctin in a bad position for no reason, and I'd sort of expect a day 1 bus to be done in a more conventional fashion rather than something elaborate like that. ｢(ﾟﾍﾟ)

[catboi]

Not like much else is going on around here...

[catboi]

Typically the day gets extended if we're waiting on a replacement at deadline and one hasn't been found yet.

[catboi]

and hi gira!!!!

Hi super~ (for anyone wondering, gira was the name I used on another site)

I'm kinda hoping catboi is town with me based on just knowing them so I always have a little hopeful friend bias but I will say I did read their wallpost of reads and liked what I saw and haven't really seen scum!gira ever post anything that substantial lmao but maybe they play different on mafiascum.

Based on knowing me, or because you think I'm an easy pocket?

My EM scumgames were...not my best. I can write better when I'm not being buried under a mountain of hyperposting. I am town this game, though! I don't need you being paranoid of me just yet~

[catboi]

If orctin is scum, this is a bus for catboi to quickly build the town's trust.

Lol

[catboi]

Describing my followup as "nonsensical" is a pretty egregious attack. I assume you're referring to 614? What part of it, exactly, did you find nonsensical?

[catboi]

I had already read JacksonVirgo as scum

Remind me again what your reasons for scumreading him were?

[catboi]

If orctin is scum, this is a bus for catboi to quickly build the town's trust.

Lol

I don't like this. "That claim is so stupid" vibes.

Pre-emptively claiming that if my scumread flips red I must have bussed is fairly ludicrous and seems more like ninjastore attempting to cover his own ass in the event of an orctin scumflip

[catboi]

No, those literally mean the exact opposite, ninjastore - orctin in his reads list was reading James as town and said "I haven't seen a pairing yet with him", which seemingly implied he had no viable partners. The explanation he gave after being questioned on this is the exact opposite of that. How are you pretending not to see this?

[catboi]

Gira what's your read on me? if any?

I'll respond to Ninja/Orc when I get up from bed

Residually town from Dum, your catchup was fine and I don't have any objection to it. With you replacing in I don't really expect to be able to read you in the usual way but you're fine so far.

[catboi]

How does any of that equate to being scum?

What about his "tone" stood out, and why was it scummy? How can one "emphasize" things with "tone"? What do you mean when you say he was emphasizing making reads, rather than who the reads were about? Give examples.

Given the amount of pressure he was under, emphasizing the things he was being attacked for are part of his playstyle is null at best, unless he lying and it is not actually part of his playstyle (and I am absolutely not doing a background check to find out).

How is a post emphasizing he's town supposed to be scummy? That's something players of either alignment will do.

I looked up the hammering thing:

Yes. How is explaining a policy and saying "Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum" a gambit? What were you hoping to accomplish?

Are you fucking serious. If you actually READ MY FUCKIN POSTS you would know.


By saying that we will eliminate anyone that hammers, and I push it as serious, scum would not hammer. Therefore, it is very unlikely a speed-hammer will happen and if it does, I would know with very small doubt that the hammerer is Town.

Why is that scummy? You claim it's bizarre, explain why scum does that post? (I think that thing is really townie, but of course I'm biased)


Your focus here seems to be on almost entirely superficial things that have little to no relation to whether or not someone is actually mafia. The thing to be looking at, in the most general terms, is whether someone is playing to a town win condition (trying to find and eliminate mafia) or a scum win condition (survive and get town eliminated). The things you are claiming to scumread JV for don't really fit into any sort of sensible framework for scumhunting, it's just things like "interesting tone" - which, by the way, "interesting"? Not "scummy"? it feels like you're being guarded in your use of language here.

[catboi]

catboi's actions look scummy for reasons completely unrelated to anything JacksonVirgo did. Any player entering the game when catboi did and making that push against orctin would be making what looks to me like a scum play.

Why does it have to be a scum play? What do you think a town player who replaces into a slot under suspicion would do? Why couldn't I be town with a legitimate read that I'm trying to push?

[catboi]

it is a stupid claim lol, I'd lol at it too

Tbh I'd react that way as scum too but that's just because I'm dismissive of nonsense as either alignment.

Anyway, Super, with regard to HEM: I thought there was a decent possibility he was scum, but also he was in the category of "If he's scum I'm not going to be able to convince people today" and if he's making the vote I want that's fine enough. It's possible the immediate shift was because he was tunneled on JV and my replace-in made him re-evaluate, rather than a tactical switch of reads, I'm really not sure and unfortunately we're never going to find out. I feel like his slot's a bit of a write-off for today.

[catboi]

This no longer feels like a newbie game.

y?

Aren't only 3 of us actually new players?

unwnd was replacing a SE slot, so that's no difference. Super is technically a newbie, but by site rules only, as she is more like a baseball player who has spent years playing in Japan then comes to the United States and is considered a rookie. There's still you/orctin/ninjastore/navigatorv (when they return to us). But this tends to happen in newbie games that need a lot of replacements.

[catboi]

Orctin voting Dum who I was also pinging as scummy (who is Super). Meanwhile my blank tr (meaning I literally tabbed into the game, saw one or two of his posts and said 'yup that's probably town') is voting with me on Orctin. Catboi, what do you think of Super right now and do you think that Dum (Super)/Orctin could be two mates who are caught in a bad situation? That would be a great explanation but likely not the one that is real

I don't think page 5 ever happens if Dum and orctin are teamed? Granted I've been fooled before by overestimating scum teams that made wildly bad plays, but it doesn't

feel

like that would be a thing teammates would do, and in general, that wild, off the wall ridiculous type of play coming from a newbie is almost always town.

[catboi]

No, those literally mean the exact opposite, ninjastore - orctin in his reads list was reading James as town and said "I haven't seen a pairing yet with him", which seemingly implied he had no viable partners. The explanation he gave after being questioned on this is the exact opposite of that. How are you pretending not to see this?

What Ninja said was exactly what i meant and stated -

I didn't say James was town

, i was noting that a partner to him would not have to be Monkey, but

could be multiple people

because of how playstyle and voting goes.

James - for the most part i read as town

, I like his questioning nature to look at things first to form an opinion.

I haven't seen a pairing yet with him

but that would basically make him a good pairing with myself if i were looking at scum read pair from outside the looking glass.

No, that is literally not what you said in the slightest, you're just blatantly lying now.

And if you're going to claim you weren't saying james is town, that puts you at...zero town reads, apparently.

[catboi]

I urge the people I've talked about to look at these posts because while they are for me, I break through my own catch-up to ask things and inquire about topics that I'd like to see others inquire about.

Spoiler tagging posts is a surefire way to get me to skip them and the way you've formatted them makes it incredibly hard to read. What are you even doing? You know how to format a post better than this. At least include the links.

[catboi]

catboi's actions look scummy for reasons completely unrelated to anything JacksonVirgo did. Any player entering the game when catboi did and making that push against orctin would be making what looks to me like a scum play.

Why does it have to be a scum play? What do you think a town player who replaces into a slot under suspicion would do? Why couldn't I be town with a legitimate read that I'm trying to push?

It was a good time to slip in when there was just starting to be heat on orctin.

That does not adequately answer the questions I asked. Please try again.

I urge the people I've talked about to look at these posts because while they are for me, I break through my own catch-up to ask things and inquire about topics that I'd like to see others inquire about.

Spoiler tagging posts is a surefire way to get me to skip them and the way you've formatted them makes it incredibly hard to read. What are you even doing? You know how to format a post better than this. At least include the links.

I'm lazy though. Are they really that hard to read? I write them up in a separate notepad and then just post them when I'm done. That's why you never see me direct linking lol

the [post] tag only takes two mouse clicks, one to highlight, and one to hit the button.

But, enough of my quibbles. I'll leave you to your business.

[catboi]

The whole game i had said i felt JV was town - So stick that in your "zero town reading pipe" and smoke it. Really getting irritating when people take what i say and twist it around cause they are so one dimensional in their thinking

Okay, but you're clearly not townreading his sot now. This is very selective! The fact is your readslist from earlier today gave you an excuse to vote almost anyone and that felt like it was not coming from the mindset of someone who needs to find mafia to win the game.

I had started directly above that line that i could see a HEM/James pair and why - or are you just blind to reading what you want to to help your arguments?

I mean, no, that was specifically pointed out right after I posted your readslist and I commented on it, so obviously I've noticed. The fact is it's contradictory with what you said after , and none of your explanations are satisfactory. You just keep saying that wasn't what you meant and constantly invent new explanations for what you were saying that don't really seem to make sense and it's very tiresome to deal with.


Whatever, this is scum flail. I'm not going to throw myself into a prolonged 1v1 here.

[catboi]

Orc how many games have you played? Mind linking me a town game of yours? (if possible)

He has one completed game on site as town. I had aleready taken a look when I was replacing into this game, and I feel like he was a lot more proactive in his scumhunting there and was much wore willing to express suspicions with reasoning behind them - compare his accusations there to the stuff he says about Micc, for instance.

[catboi]

Finally back, I'll catch up today and hopefully post something either later tonight or tomorrow morning

Welcome back, there's a few new faces since you were last part of the game.

[catboi]

Decided to factcheck Super's read of NinjaStore and found that he didn't really comment on the Micc slot after JF replaced in, so I'm not sure clearing him off the kill is all that sensible. I do think it'd be somewhat unusual for a new player to go with a full-throated partner defense on day 2, so if orctin is indeed scum he actually has a decent chance of being town, but the irrationality of his arguments against me and refusal to actually answer questions is annoying.

[catboi]

Decided to factcheck Super's read of NinjaStore and found that he didn't really comment on the Micc slot after JF replaced in, so I'm not sure clearing him off the kill is all that sensible. I do think it'd be somewhat unusual for a new player to go with a full-throated partner defense on day 2, so if orctin is indeed scum he actually has a decent chance of being town, but the irrationality of his arguments against me and refusal to actually answer questions is annoying.

What do you mean by a full-throated parter defence?

Right now ninjastore is laying into me and calling everything I do scummy. in some way this could be seen as acting in defense of orctin, although I suppose that description isn't

quite

right because he's not defending orctin and is calling him a scum lean. Still, most newbie scum players wouldn't be as likely to act so aggressively toward someone who suspects their partner out of fear they'll make their connection too obvious. I wouldn't write him off completely because it's impossible to know someone's individual playstyle when there's no data and sometimes players are very bold (also, I townread other people more than him). However it's a small point that makes me doubt an orctin/ninjastore team.

[catboi]

Oh so now someone wants to read pairs after I get told i shouldn't be reading scum pairings?

That's not what I have said at any point. My criticism has been that your reasonings for who could be potentially teamed weren't consistent within your reads list, and when called out on it, you gave an explanation that is seemingly the exact opposite of what you had said earlier, which looks like an attempt to cover your butt after getting called out.

I would think it would not be hard to understand that is my argument and I have no issue with looking at who makes sense as a team (or, more precisely, who seems less likely to be aligned as mafia teammates) and the fact that you're trying to spin it this way just seems dishonest.

[catboi]

stop looking for pairs, I haven't really been thinking of pairs at this point

Wasn't you Cat - was just noting in general

>super tells you to stop looking in pairs
>I talk about how I think you and ninjastore are maybe not teamed
>you complain like I was the one who told you to stop talking about it

Like...what??

[catboi]

Hi navi! Obviously me saying both to Catboi is a joke haha, but I do like pocketing people (being townread) as town cos then the game is easier for everyone

sorry I haven't been hyperposting much, I'm kinda struggling in this game cos its lack of interest and no one seems to be posting much. I struggle at getting reads without having constant back and forth interactions and I've kinda been waiting for people to be more active

It's okay to let the game breathe if there's nothing new to say. Did you have any reads you actually wanted to discuss?

[catboi]

While I don't think the day needs to be concluded right away, we are at less than 2 days until deadline. While I would like for navigatorv to catch up and provide input before we end the day, we can't keep waiting on them forever. We should be trying to get a claim in the near future.

[catboi]

this game is actually cursed srsly???

newbie games tend to have a high number of replacements but this one is particularly bad. Having 3 incredibly flaky SEs to start the game didn't help. I swear most games are better than this >_>

[catboi]

Hi navi! Obviously me saying both to Catboi is a joke haha, but I do like pocketing people (being townread) as town cos then the game is easier for everyone

sorry I haven't been hyperposting much, I'm kinda struggling in this game cos its lack of interest and no one seems to be posting much. I struggle at getting reads without having constant back and forth interactions and I've kinda been waiting for people to be more active

It's okay to let the game breathe if there's nothing new to say. Did you have any reads you actually wanted to discuss?

not really. I think you and unwnd are hopefully town

I think I'm the only one who isn't confident on an Orc vote because generally when it's a whole town consensus it makes me feel icky; I don't really know what they're doing though, I don't even know who they have townreads on; they're definitely lower in my PoE

I find it strange that Ninja subbed out and I don't wanna make speculations on why they subbed

Navi's catchup was meh

I like unwnd unvoting Orc, that was towny I guess

you can tell I'm really caring about this game lmao

You realize you're almost totally lacking in scumreading anyone, right?

[catboi]

I don't think the unvote from unwnd is a towntell and in fact his catch up had faint notes of scumwnd, though I don't feel like going into details right now.

Anyway, hi zyla .+:｡(ﾉ･ω･)ﾉﾞ

[catboi]

I'd want to hear what you think you're seeing, because despite your own hesitance I still have a lingering sr on Dum who was Super's slot, which I believe you shut down for unknown reasons

My primary reason was that the ludicrous play on page 5 from Dum screams newbie town trying to make a big play, and makes the slot unlikely to be partnered with orctin because of what happened. I also think super is more capable as scum and wouldn't choose to fritter so uselessly like she's doing now - her reluctance to push anyone as a scumread is more likely caused by townie paralytic indecision than unwillingness to fake a case on anyone. Maybe I'm overestimating her to my own detriment but that's how I feel.

As for you, well, my perspective is biased from having been on your team but a lot of your catchup felt like writing words for the sake of words wore than anything, aside from the orctin read it didn't feel solid. That's a vague answer because the read right now is just impressionistic. I townread other players more than your slot, is the thing.

[catboi]

I don't think the unvote from unwnd is a towntell and in fact his catch up had faint notes of scumwnd, though I don't feel like going into details right now.

Anyway, hi zyla .+:｡(ﾉ･ω･)ﾉﾞ

Is this not wanting to go deep into game logic and reads, or are you trying to do something strange like Super did in 751?

No I'm just lazy and the read isn't very substantive and more of a vague gut feeling

[catboi]

If Orctin is just set on letting himself die as town I'll feel stupid about it, but the way he's just decided to keep his mouth shut really makes me think this is right. You can consider the prospect of me bussing another time.

Fair enough, like I said this is all material for another day. I do wannt orctin as the vote today still and people can solve after the flip on day 3.

[catboi]

Yes, we've known each other for almost 11 years. She's a competent scum player who solo carried a werewolf win in a run of jungle oligarchy (That I effectively left her alone in because I couldn't keep up with post volume >_>). Unfortunately the records of those games have been memory holed from the internet forever. I feel like she'd be playing with more of an agenda here and she's certainly not afraid to bus. It wouldn't be impossible for her to feel she's painted into a corner, I suppose. But then I wouldn't expect her to come back with a townread on ninjastore when that just hems her in further. I wouldn't say it's impossible but the explanation would be frankly bafflingly poor play on her end if so and I learn toward that not being the case.

[catboi]

my closing thought for the night is I want orctin to claim

[catboi]

actually, Catboi (Gira bb), why haven't you been more paranoid of me? I have had you pocketed as mafia multiple games and for some reason maybe I'd see you being more hesitant on reading me since I've burned you so many times. or is it the fact you had Dum to read beforehand and that has initially helped your read on me?

I'm only saying this because I'd almost expect you to be slightly more sus of me whereas it feels like you just *know* I'm town here and it's nice and all for me, but I still gotta question the certainty (I'm pretty sure you're town but I'm never 100%)

You overrate the extent to which you had me fooled in most of those games (cult game yes, other times I had an early suspicion that didn't get followed through on). I don't have that same methodology here with your replace in, though.

That said, if you want me to suspect you, posts like this are a great place to start because it's a scummy sounding one.

[catboi]

Okay, this game is cursed

[catboi]

please just hammer

[catboi]

If I'm wrong then I need serious re-eval but still feel reasonably good about James and navslot as town

[catboi]

gg all. I guess I'm kind of bad at reading people.

Everyone is, but you get a little better with experience. Don't sweat being wrong when you're new. I hope I didn't put you off with my questioning, I only wanted to get you to think critically about thelogic behind your scumread of me - I think your impulse for suspecting me was entirely understandable but you didn't really seem to have considered worlds where I was town, and that type of thinking can lead to tunneling.


It was unfortunate the game had to deal with so many replacements, I was hoping to give the game some life and then half the players subbed out after me. >_> Big thanks to Super, Zyla, and Noraa for picking up the slack and closing this game out!

I was reasonably confident HEM was teamed with orctin but didn't want to force myself to fight him after I replaced in because that read was going to be a pain inthe butt to sell people on compared to orctin. There were a lot of posts that I thought made them an extremely obvious team, but at the same time I was telling people not to go crazy with pre-flip associatives - that's normally the right idea, and I want to encourage new players to think more in terms of looking for people who are individually scummy rather than trying to find the exact team during the day. Still, I immediately regretted not fleshing out my suspicion and leaving behind a clear legacy before the day ended as things looked murky for a bit on day 3. That's a lesson for me, I suppose.

I hope the high number of replacements didn't turn off the people who played in this game! I did enjoy all the newbies I had a chance to read, and I hope you'll stick around. I swear most games aren't this bad in terms of replacements. In particular, I thought James and navigatorv were great and showed an impressive level of effort for newer players. I hope navigator is doing all right and that they come back when their schedule clears up.

[catboi]

Hey all, sorry for replacing out, the constant subouts just made things too hard to follow lmao hope everyone had fun, thanks for hosting Cabd! ^^

Sorry you had such a difficult experience for your first game, I do hope you give things another try, I swear most games aren't this bad in terms of replacements. I was really impressed with your play, especially for someone totally new to forum mafia and had been looking forward to working with you.