Mini Normal 2213 - Village (End Game)

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: Italiano

Hi. I’m Town.

VOTE: Noraa

Lol are you now.

[ItalianoVD]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Gamma

Everyone above me is town.

Andre, StD, and Johnny lock town

VOTE: VFP

Yes.

VOTE: VFP

[ItalianoVD]

Should I claim?

Of course. Why wouldn’t you

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: Italiano

I remember you. After I had my little tantrum I left. Did you turn out to be scum?

[ItalianoVD]

god i want that pizza

VOTE: RLotus

im so hungry i really want that pizza

I'm nearly 30 that cheese would put me dead in the ground

i'm almost 33 and i'm willing to die from cheese overdose

[ItalianoVD]

Ita are you town?

I am. Are you?

[ItalianoVD]

Should I vote two more times?

Is that your power? No wait don’t answer that.

[ItalianoVD]

ItalianoVD - seems pretty towny as scum. town behavior I haven't paid much attention to/havent seen. can't remember which.

I get scumread when I’m town.

[ItalianoVD]

tonally, I currently dislike Fenny and Dunn.
It's hard to describe why I think they're scum. For Dunn, the read doesn't matter because my read on him will develop eventually to become a town or scum read.
For Fenny, its hard to say. I realize that mashie players tend to come off scummy af to me so it's difficult.

Who’s Fenny?

[ItalianoVD]

ItalianoVD - seems pretty towny as scum. town behavior I haven't paid much attention to/havent seen. can't remember which.

I replaced out of it but I believe I had one game with IVD where he scummed it up pretty bad early as town

oh gosh I remember that game. So frustrating. I should have left like other people did.

[ItalianoVD]

Also I know it's already been said but I disagree on this being distancing. Seems to me to be RVS, though I did notice the same thing, that the votes came in somewhat quickly. I don't like any of the voters for VFP...

That what happens in RVS. Votes come in, wagons form; most time quickly. What else do you think is gonna happen? You already have a solid enough read for VFP to “not like” his voters? That’s sus bruh.

[ItalianoVD]

I don’t like Andres’ entrance. FoS there. You have time but “tomorrow” should bring some substance.

[ItalianoVD]

I didn't say I had any type of read on VFP

But my thing is why did you single out the VFP voters? Why not the Johnny voters or the Noraa voters. I’m trying to understand your angle here and it’s not making me feel good.

[ItalianoVD]

I can’t really read Gamma. The only thing I’ve got is that he doesn’t town read me when he’s town. I got nothing otherwise and that can easily be circumvented.

[ItalianoVD]

But my thing is why did you single out the VFP voters? Why not the Johnny voters or the Noraa voters. I’m trying to understand your angle here and it’s not making me feel good.

Correction, there were four wagons with 2 votes: Gamma, STD, Max, and VFP. I’m curious why VFP’s stood out to you over the others.

[ItalianoVD]

i wouldn't meta me everytime i get back into mafia i think i play a little different

meta mostly sucks anyway

VOTE: Italiano

You want somethin’?

[ItalianoVD]

And yeah you are the townsiest townie that ever was in a town Noraa!

Remember a while back I said I could read you. I still think I can. It doesn’t really show up in your play. I think if you’re scum it’ll show up in your voting patterns. And I do vca so...

[ItalianoVD]

Should I vote two more times?

Is that your power? No wait don’t answer that.

why did you even post this

Of course. I was joking with a bunch of players early on with the pizza pics and telling VFP to claim and whatnot, but I realized that really wasn’t along the lines of what I wanted to joke about. It was really a thought train that I just decided to post.

[ItalianoVD]

to vote you mostly

Okay cool.

[ItalianoVD]

VFP's actually had movement of people coming on and off, so it stood out to me. I think at the time there had been 3 people, maybe 4 that had voted VFP at some point. 2 RVS votes on the same person does not a wagon make. When votes start going on and off like that though, it piques my interest

Uhh no, that’s not right at all. Luke voted for VFP then unvoted. I voted for VFP and then Johnny. That was it. It formed like the other RVS wagons. There were no more than two votes and one unvote on VFP.

[ItalianoVD]

I gotta go back and read that Brutality game since Dunn, Andres, and RLotus played there with me. I remember that game that Dunnstral was very lurky and I thought RLotus was scum, but I left the site once I died and never knew the roles. And I think Dunnstral was scum in that Treestump game: Nancy Drew vs Titus.

[ItalianoVD]

Wtf, who votes a day 13 IC?
All we have to do is no lim every day, hope something assists in stopping kills and I'm actually confirmed as town or scum by that point.

I don't think VCA is reliable for me. Sometimes I vote like twice in a whole large theme and sometimes I vote every two minutes. Theres ... no consistency.
But Ita, I do think you're town so I'll try to save you. Lemme first figure out why your wagons piling up lol.

VCA is reliable for everybody, lol.

I don’t ever really know why I’m scumread but I always am. I just assume it’s because I say or do things that’s easy for scum to latch onto. But if we do decide to wagon ssbm I’ll vote there. I still don’t like the fact of the singling out of the VFP wagon, even though he explained it.

[ItalianoVD]

I quoted that VFP quote because I was gonna say you can stop milking that joke. It’s done now.

[ItalianoVD]

So I read up on that Brutality game and Andres and RLotus were both town and Dunnstral was scum. Andres started off the same in that game as in this game, so it’s at least nai. Lotus tunneled me like a madman which is why I knew you had to be scum. I don’t see scum tunneling town the way you did in that game so I can assume it’s within your town range to do so. Dunnstral was non existent on Day 1 that game and sort of picked it up on Day 2. Scum!Dunnstral could be a thing, but I assume he towntells as town, otherwise I can’t read him him off of the games I’ve played with him because he’s been scum.

[ItalianoVD]

UNVOTE: VFP

Was RVS, but not really seeing anything worth voting for now.

[ItalianoVD]

As I reread this post it stuck out to me because I feel like it should be apparent to Ita why the VFP wagon was of interest to me, specifically because of the comments he later makes regarding VCA. I remember thinking when he first posted about VCA that I also play that way in later Days and because of that playstyle

I've grown more attentive of early voting patterns and wagons in general.

I feel like Ita, as a player who touts VCA, should not have been surprised that I "singled out" the VFP wagon.

RVS wagons make sense once there are flips. I do look at early wagons and voting patterns, but there is always context. There were four wagons at 2 votes and no one wagon ever reached 3 votes. Both you and Gamma have wrong information.

VCA is pointless unless/until you have flips. I never use VCA before a flip so why are you saying that like that’s how this works.

I’m suspicious of how you are framing this VFP wagon and then when I point out that it wasn’t the way you are framing it, you double down?

Then I ask what you thought about VFP to be going after his voters and in 105 you stated you you didn’t have any type of read on him. And I understand you don’t need to have a read on a slot to go after the voters, but in this context it’s fishy. You’d have more to stand on if the wagon got to L2 or L1.

[ItalianoVD]

my suggestion is to either yeet Andres or Dunn.

I don’t agree with Andres right now. I guess giving him some time is alright because I’ve seen him do better as the game progresses.

[ItalianoVD]

Luke voted and then unvoted VFP before the other 2 votes on VFP, so at that point, there had been three players that had voted for VFP, even though not all of those players were still voting them. That is what I, and I think Gamma, have been saying.

You do realize Gamma voted for VFP. Both of your synopsis of the wagon is wrong. There was one unvote and then two votes.

I'm not saying you should be doing VCA pre-flip. I'm saying that I, as a player who likes to use VCA, have resultantly become more attentive to RVS voting. I believe that you, also as a player who uses VCA, should have developed a similar sense.

I have and do. RVS voting is something I keep in mind and in my notes so that I can see what’s happening once there are flips. I don’t and can’t resolve it day 1. A push is fine, your push is broken.

What do you mean by framing the VFP wagon, and in what way am I framing it? I also don't think you asked me what I thought of VFP. You asked me if I had a solid read on him. I think the reaction you're having to a couple of votes is giving me the ground to stand on.

Come on, don’t do that. You said there were unvotes (as in plural) and that people voted for VFP and you were framing it as if it was the biggest wagon of the day. If the

unvote

really piqued your interest then your vote is not consistent with that thought. And I really find it suspicious that you haven’t said anything about Gamma? Who also voted for VFP. There are holes in your push and I don’t believe it would be this faulty if you were town.

VOTE: ssbm_kyouko

[ItalianoVD]

I can see this, something seems off about that last wall

How did you take him not talking to you about your VFP vote? Also you said there were unvotes when there was one and now it’s been established that it was a joke? What were you seeing?

[ItalianoVD]

Not on day 1

So is this just your motto? Not to be active on Day 1?

[ItalianoVD]

scumStral has a trend of being lurky.

What about town Dunnstral? From what I remember he was pretty lurky as town as well.

[ItalianoVD]

@Save the Dragons: what do you think about Dunnstral’s vote on you? Is it common? Uncommon?

[ItalianoVD]

Oh I forgot this...

I also don't think you asked me what I thought of VFP. You asked me if I had a solid read on him.

I didn’t. In 93 I said

“You already have a solid enough read for VFP to “not like” his voters? That’s sus bruh.”

It was a tongue in cheek type of comment. I wasn’t actually asking you about your read on him.

[ItalianoVD]

Anyone else get the feeling this last round of postings from italiano are different somehow? Tone feels completely changed, like he's received coaching. Just woke up and read through it on my phone.

This is more reason why I’m happy voting for you. There are other people in this game and I need to sort them out, especially the ones who are currently being wagoned. Is this something that you plan on doing as well or you gonna just focus on early RVS wagons?

[ItalianoVD]

@Save the Dragons: what do you think about Dunnstral’s vote on you? Is it common? Uncommon?

it seems like a RVS vote i didn't see any reasoning

i dunno what you mean by common or uncommon

I’m saying I don’t know if you and Dunn have history together and if you do, does he generally vote you?

[ItalianoVD]

Has he ever voted you and it wasn’t RVS

[ItalianoVD]

In a hypothetical situation where Italy WAS coached, Andres could be that coach. And he's still not in thread. So like.

VOTE: Andres

Not specifically for that, but just. Yknow. In general.

Didn’t you just call out Noraa for splitting the pressure votes and then you vote for Andres before her response? Ehh… I don’t know. It’s not so much the vote it’s more so the call out.

[ItalianoVD]

my experience with Dunn in completed games is one, he was town and barely showed up unless you attacked him

So then you’d say that being lucky is nai?

[ItalianoVD]

*lurky

[ItalianoVD]

And hahaha the thought that I would say I can’t get on to play but would have the time to coach someone is nothing short of laughable. I don’t have to lie about my activity to win a game as Scum.

Yeah apparently we’re partners and you coached me to start posting “differently”. I think it’s more of an insult that if I was scum I’d need coaching.

[ItalianoVD]

Voting somewhere else without unvoting still counts IMO
As for “it was a joke”, I don’t get how that matters to me

Of course it does. I’m saying there were not multiple unvotes as you stated in 61. It may seem small but it’s important that information like that is accurate so as not to paint the wrong picture overall.

I’m asking if you feel differently about the unvote now that it was shown to be a joke to match VFP’s joke claim? And you didn’t answer my first question.

[ItalianoVD]

Sometimes he is, but when he is it doesn’t look like this IMO

Look like what? Can you show me what difference you’re seeing?

[ItalianoVD]

In a hypothetical situation where Italy WAS coached, Andres could be that coach. And he's still not in thread. So like.

VOTE: Andres

Not specifically for that, but just. Yknow. In general.

I hate this post on a lot of levels.

[ItalianoVD]

In a hypothetical situation where Italy WAS coached, Andres could be that coach. And he's still not in thread. So like.

VOTE: Andres

Not specifically for that, but just. Yknow. In general.

Very strange. Looks like he is grasping for a reason to switch his vote.

Willing to vote UC, Kyoko, Ita, Luke today. Anybody else you or they will have to convince me

VOTE: uc[/v]

Also what happened to this ahaha?

rtlotus pretty much said the same thing but dressed up nicer, right above where he says he needs to policy elim me because he can't read me

It ain't that serious lol. Not like I'm out for your head, but it would really help me if you give a bit more than the last times I played with you. I realized that's a bit hypocritical coming from me at this very moment. I'm just not tryna lose a third time in a row to scum!you.

In contrast this is a good post.

[ItalianoVD]

Lotus can you make me a cool Noraa list of who you've played with before and how you fare against town/ scum them?

So no response to 301 at all?

[ItalianoVD]

I feel like a person posts how they post and if that changes it can be an indicator that the words are being put in their mouth. It also feels like he was waiting for someone else to vote me first, which I dont think has anything to do with the coaching, but also seems scummy

What is your case on me again?

[ItalianoVD]

Is there a reason this game has devolved into voting for only low content slots? Does that mean we think everybody who is talking is town?

I mean why not. Voting doesn’t mean you’re getting eliminated, but it’s proven to get people’s attention.

[ItalianoVD]

As of right now:

Town leaning

VFP
Noraa
RLotus
Lukewarm
Save the Dragons

Null

Andres
Dunnstral
MaxTheFox
UC Voyager

Scum leaning or willing to vote for

ssbm_kyouko
Johnny Farrar
Gamma

[ItalianoVD]

If you wanna know more about this just ask me, don’t assume.

[ItalianoVD]

Town leaning
VFP

Where did this come from?

Tone and gut mainly.

[ItalianoVD]

It's also not that he's asking for a case, it's that he's feigning ignorance as he does so.

I am asking because I don't remember you actually making a case. You said you didn't like any of the VFP voters and voted for me and have locked in so that everything I do or post you find scum motivation behind it. At this point I'm done responding to you. And please stop making stupid assumptions. You don't understand how annoyed that makes me. I'm being calm but it takes me to the nth degree.

[ItalianoVD]

Sometimes he is, but when he is it doesn’t look like this IMO

Look like what? Can you show me what difference you’re seeing?

I believe Dunnstral should have at least some genuine effort present if he’s lurky town, or at the very least display a specific behavioral pattern
I haven’t seen it yet

Fair enough.

[ItalianoVD]

Why are you specifically contrasting these posts?

No reason in particular. I was catching up and these posts in succession stood out to me.

[ItalianoVD]

I don’t feel any different about it with the fact it was a follow-up response to a joke claim. My premise was that the wagon not being larger was due to scum stepping off, and honestly I’d put greater suspicion on an unvote that uses a joke claim as its basis.
Okay I see what you what you were thinking now.

As for Kyouko not interacting on that point, from what I saw we had practically the same thinking about VFP. If our thought slightly differed I’d have expected interaction, but any interaction in this case would have basically been echoing each other’s thoughts.

I don't think it was entirely the same, maybe the initial perception of the wagon was, but the response to it wasn't. You voted for VFP thinking he was scum and his partner was distancing. Kyouko voted for one of the VFP voters thinking they were scum jumping on a town wagon? Obviously I'm biased because he's voting me, but you and Johnny were voting VFP and yet he voted for me under the premise that he didn't like the voters. I could actually see and understand your reasoning and response. Kyouko to me doesn't make sense.

[ItalianoVD]

Fixed it.

I don’t feel any different about it with the fact it was a follow-up response to a joke claim. My premise was that the wagon not being larger was due to scum stepping off, and honestly I’d put greater suspicion on an unvote that uses a joke claim as its basis.

Okay I see what you what you were thinking now.

As for Kyouko not interacting on that point, from what I saw we had practically the same thinking about VFP. If our thought slightly differed I’d have expected interaction, but any interaction in this case would have basically been echoing each other’s thoughts.

I don't think it was entirely the same, maybe the initial perception of the wagon was, but the response to it wasn't. You voted for VFP thinking he was scum and his partner was distancing. Kyouko voted for one of the VFP voters thinking they were scum jumping on a town wagon? Obviously I'm biased because he's voting me, but you and Johnny were voting VFP and yet he voted for me under the premise that he didn't like the voters. I could actually see and understand your reasoning and response. Kyouko to me doesn't make sense.

[ItalianoVD]

Third try. Sorry I'm a perfectionist

I don’t feel any different about it with the fact it was a follow-up response to a joke claim. My premise was that the wagon not being larger was due to scum stepping off, and honestly I’d put greater suspicion on an unvote that uses a joke claim as its basis.

Okay I see what you were thinking now.

As for Kyouko not interacting on that point, from what I saw we had practically the same thinking about VFP. If our thought slightly differed I’d have expected interaction, but any interaction in this case would have basically been echoing each other’s thoughts.

I don't think it was entirely the same, maybe the initial perception of the wagon was, but the response to it wasn't. You voted for VFP thinking he was scum and his partner was distancing. Kyouko voted for one of the VFP voters thinking they were scum jumping on a town wagon? Obviously I'm biased because he's voting me, but you and Johnny were voting VFP and yet he voted for me under the premise that he didn't like the voters. I could actually see and understand your reasoning and response. Kyouko to me doesn't make sense.

[ItalianoVD]

Because I've done fuck all this game.
Nora and IVD look the worst though jumping off the wagon.

You may not have done anything but I use tone if I have nothing else to go on and most of your posts have a somewhat town feel to them. I have no problem placing you there for now.

[ItalianoVD]

Actually, now that I consider it, our thinking possibly did differ. I think Kyouko didn’t place as much suspicion on VFP as I did, if any. That’s the logical explanation for why Kyouko acted differently.

Do you at least see where I’m coming from now?

[ItalianoVD]

Votecount

Dunnstral [3]:

RLotus, Gamma Emerald, Save The Dragons

ssbm_Kyouko [2]:

Lukewarm, ItalianoVD

Gamma Emerald [1]:

VFP

Andresvmb [1]:

JohnnyFarrar

ItalianoVD [1]:

ssbm_Kyouko

Save The Dragons [1]:

Dunnstral

Noraa [1]:

Andresvmb

Andresvmb [1]:

Noraa

Not Voting: UC Voyager, MaxTheFox

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to reach majority.

The day will end in (expired on 2021-05-28 14:03:00) or when majority is reached.

Lotus now that you’ve seen more from Dunn is it enough to not vote for him or are you still comfortable there?

[ItalianoVD]

And Andres dipped off saying he was drunk and still hasn't come back.

Btw I was hungover, not drunk. I was drunk the day before. That lead to the hangover. If I said that on a Saturday, I believe I kept drinking that day too, so I didn’t end up resting. If it was Sunday, I was resting.

I’m sorry but why is this always the excuse in these games? That doesn’t excuse poor play or lack of content or whatever, at least not for me. It’s simple. If you’re drunk don’t post.

[ItalianoVD]

Btw I think ssbm has a much better handle of the gamestate than I ever could this early so I’m going to sheep them.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Seriously??

[ItalianoVD]

Literally every stance Kyouko has made feels off to me. Like they are hunting for excuses to scum read people (which scum do), instead of actually reading people (which townies do)

VOTE: Kyouko

I also think there’s potential (take this with a grain of salt) that Lukewarm is Scum.

I think Lukewarm’s thinking process is scary good. All anybody needs to do is read 144 to come to this conclusion. There is a level of attentiveness behind that post that tends to be hard to showcase as Scum. In a way, I agree, actually. I felt the same way reading Gamma’s post in that they seemed self-conscious, defending a point that most other players, in the grand scheme of things, probably ignore. But you know what? I think Scum are more likely to not make the clarification Gamma made, rather than the reverse. I think Lukewarm is grabbing onto something they know they can effectively paint as Scummy, that I don’t think really is. It’s a clever move.

Now, I could be WAY off. Lukewarm is definitely a challenging player to read and they seem methodical. But I TR ssbm, and I don’t like their push there, and they seem somewhat obstinate. So that’s enough for me to express my suspicions of the slot.

Something about this I don’t like. I think it’s the seeming defense of both Lukewarms scumreads. Like that’s bothersome to me, but I can’t really articulate it fully. Can someone else look at it and see if I’m just being paranoid.

[ItalianoVD]

I think Nor generating a lot of content is a town feel for me.
I got a town read for save. I'm not quite sure exactly.
I really can't make reads on people who haven't posted much.
I got a weird feel about ITA and Gamma that I might read into.

Have you read into what you felt was weird yet?

[ItalianoVD]

Literally every stance Kyouko has made feels off to me. Like they are hunting for excuses to scum read people (which scum do), instead of actually reading people (which townies do)

VOTE: Kyouko

I also think there’s potential (take this with a grain of salt) that Lukewarm is Scum.

I think Lukewarm’s thinking process is scary good. All anybody needs to do is read 144 to come to this conclusion. There is a level of attentiveness behind that post that tends to be hard to showcase as Scum. In a way, I agree, actually. I felt the same way reading Gamma’s post in that they seemed self-conscious, defending a point that most other players, in the grand scheme of things, probably ignore. But you know what? I think Scum are more likely to not make the clarification Gamma made, rather than the reverse. I think Lukewarm is grabbing onto something they know they can effectively paint as Scummy, that I don’t think really is. It’s a clever move.

Now, I could be WAY off. Lukewarm is definitely a challenging player to read and they seem methodical. But I TR ssbm, and I don’t like their push there, and they seem somewhat obstinate. So that’s enough for me to express my suspicions of the slot.

Okay let me come back to this. Why did you agree in the fact of how you felt when reading Gamma only to say, but no it’s scummy to pickup and push on that. And what was wrong with the push on Kyouko? I know you townread him but you don’t see Lukewarm’s push coming from town at all?

[ItalianoVD]

I'd like to say that this isn't true but I'm having a hard time reading Dunn this game so I'm not willing to comment on his alignment anymore until I'm more certain. I do overall agree that Dunn probably shouldn't be the day 1 lim.

How do you get certain? Is it just reading more of his posts? Or his votes? Etc..

[ItalianoVD]

Meh I need to UNVOTE: . I don’t really SR Italiano to be totally honest.

So what was that? A reaction test or something?

[ItalianoVD]

My thoughts:

I looked over gamma and other than his push on me which I did not like, the rest of their posting seems fine
Andres feels fine on tone but too early to get a good grasp
Max... feels scummy to me, always has
Savethedragons is "ok", not where I want my vote today
I read through VFP iso and I don't know, they made a good point that they haven't done anything and the townreads on them are weird, kind of feel they're being hypocritical by also calling me town, and I don't know about 370

I didn’t like how Gamma was trying to paint your lurking as scum and kinda disregarded a space for town you.
So you’ve played with Max before? Or are you just talking about this game?
And no read on me?

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: RLotus

Alright Lotus, let’s not be masons. You definitely need to sharpen your pencil.

VOTE: Lotus now we're getting somewhere

VOTE: Lotus

wagon ahoy

VOTE: RLotus

Yeah not liking this.

[ItalianoVD]

God damn it I was going to vote him first

However, I don’t think scum posts this.

UNVOTE: Kyouko

[ItalianoVD]

Becauseeeeee?

Because of the fast formation and the voters and my read on them.

[ItalianoVD]

As of right now:

Town leaning

VFP
Noraa
RLotus
Lukewarm
Save the Dragons

Null

Andres
Dunnstral
MaxTheFox
UC Voyager

Scum leaning or willing to vote for

ssbm_kyouko
Johnny Farrar
Gamma

I’m okay with Noraa and starting to feel okay with Andres, but you and Kyouko was why I wasn’t liking the wagon, but... I already stated that I probably shouldn’t be scumreading ssbm.

Also Lotus’ response to the wagon/pressure was similar to the game we played.

[ItalianoVD]

Kyoko you seemingly flipped on?

Hey hey now, not a full flip. I don’t feel comfortable fully townreading him, but I at least don’t wanna vote him today.

Is the only reason he’s getting voted is because of his readslist?

[ItalianoVD]

That’s all I’ve seen really.

[ItalianoVD]

So you think someone can read the top 4 posters in this game and honestly have town leans on all of them?

I can’t say really. It’s kinda nuanced. Players see things all kinds of ways and read people differently whether by tone or gut or intent, etc. Perhaps it’s a little simplistic and needs some more depth, but I can’t say it’s outright scummy to me.

[ItalianoVD]

I'd like to say that this isn't true but I'm having a hard time reading Dunn this game so I'm not willing to comment on his alignment anymore until I'm more certain. I do overall agree that Dunn probably shouldn't be the day 1 lim.

How do you get certain? Is it just reading more of his posts? Or his votes? Etc..

its a feeling.

Ok gotcha.

[ItalianoVD]

i don't know if scum wagon quite that fast, i'm trying to find fault with the wagon but i tr it

I had an issue with the last two voters Johnny and ssbm, but does scum post 465? I mean it’s pretty bold imo. Am I reading too much into it? Or does anyone else see it?

And frankly, I haven’t seen too many quick wagons get started by scum since I been on this site. They get muddied in late on the wagon but usually the first few are town. What do you think about Johnny?

[ItalianoVD]

They couldn't have played with me before. Doubt we met before offsite either.

Uh huh. So what are your thoughts on the game? Aside from Noraa. Do you have a feel for anything that’s happened up to this point? Anything stand out to you?

[ItalianoVD]

What do you think about Johnny?

i think town i think town tries harder than scum and it looks like he's been trying based on his re-read of the thread in an earlier post.

Ehh, I don't think so because he jumped on Andres after calling out Noraa for splitting votes and then jumped on RLotus not for his own reasoning, but. I also find the point of not being able to engage with the game when there was defintiely stuff to engage in was kinda meh. That last part is probably just confbias, but it's there for me.

With that said I think I feel better here for the day.

VOTE: Johnny

[ItalianoVD]

...and then jumped on RLotus not for his own reasoning, but...

for Dunn's and kinda Andres'

[ItalianoVD]

Oh I see Lotus is already there. Okay.

[ItalianoVD]

Ehh, I don't think so because he jumped on Andres after calling out Noraa for splitting votes

I didn't scumread Dunn, unlike Noraa. That's why I questioned Noraa about it. Noraa there, scumreading both, would be better served with one big pressure wagon than two small ones, no?

Sure, but why call it out and then follow? Especially before she even responded to your initial question?

then jumped on RLotus not for his own reasoning,

Do town not sheep?

Maybe it's the lack of sleep, but being the shitty counter wagon to Lotus is frustrating

Yes. Personally I think it’s nai, but context matters obviously. Noraa is pretty much universally townread and scum can sheep the townie and not get called out for it. That’s the problem I have with your move. It was not

that

you did it but how you did it and what your actions were afterwards.

[ItalianoVD]

I'm having issues settling on a wagon. and more than normal. so idk someone else gotta be the town leader.

Aren’t you voting Lotus? Are you having second thoughts?

[ItalianoVD]

Also, if I am right about Kyouko, I think Gamma is his partner.

But the Gamma read is a association based, so I would only push there if Kyouko flips red.

Spoiler:

Willing to vote UC, Kyoko, Ita, Luke today. Anybody else you or they will have to convince me

VOTE: uc[/v]

Luke is town

Literally every stance Kyouko has made feels off to me. Like they are hunting for excuses to scum read people (which scum do), instead of actually reading people (which townies do)

VOTE: Kyouko

I can see this, something seems off about that last wall

my suggestion is to either yeet Andres or Dunn.
It seems stupid to be going and yeeting Ita, VFP, or Mon who are all known to be LHF.

Dunn wagon has a decent amount of resistance. Tbh im really uncertain on Dunn but I do think that if he doesn't start towning up, he maybe should die today because if he is scum and gets replaced, its very damn possible that I'll just let him go and the replacement will slip by for a long time and that's horrible. And Andres dipped off saying he was drunk and still hasn't come back. I have a specific reason why I think Andres is scum which, if he is scum and comes back to the thread, I think I can verify. If he doesn't come back, then he needs to be replaced. However, I do also hope he doesn't rep out cuz my tell won't necessarily work on someone else. I think that if both Dunn and Andres get replaced, we should yeet Andres because im more confident in that being scum(kinda) I dunno im just still very weirded out that I dont have a solid read on Dunn at this point. Normally, like 3 posts in, I should already know exactly what alignment he is!!!!

I don't plan on needing a replacement...

That’s not what called for a response in that post

VOTE: Dunnstral
I would like to actively push this atp

No one asked, but this is why I feel like Gamma is partnered with Kyouko. Me and Kyouko have a decently sized back and forth about my scum read on him ending in post 259

Gamma comes in, after the entire back and forth is over, and has this have this very quick progression on the topic

• Luke is town (263)
  
• I agree that this could be suspicious (265)
  
• But look, Dunn (266)
  
• Lets actually talk about him (267)

Like they are all back to back, and look to me like they are actively trying to redirect the conversation without appearing to defend their partner.

It is the weird "I TR the person making the accusation, and even agree that Kyouko seems off, but lets not talk about that. Lets talk about a lurker instead."

So, incase anyone was interested where I am at, I am still leaning towards Kyouko for a vote today because it would give me more info on whether that really was a scum partner save from Gamma, or if Gamma really is town.

I scumread Gamma independently of ssbm. I do get what you’re saying however and it’s not a bad case.

But real quick, what do you think of ssbm’s 465? I’m big on tone and wording. Scum can be bold, but in this context I don’t know if kyouko would be given today’s events. I know you are a bit bias like I am, but if you can look at that and let me know if I’m wrong in that tone read or if I’m on the right track.

Can other people look at it as well. I asked but no one answered.

[ItalianoVD]

mmm I dont really buy the gamma/ssb case. its a bit far fetched. I think they could be buddies but probs not because of that. it seems really specific and things that specific aren't the most reliable imo.

So why do

you

think they could be buddies?

[ItalianoVD]

A big part of the reason why my read on Kyouko hasn't changed is because absolutely no one engaged with our back and forth.

I read it but at the time I was having my own back and forth with ssbm. I didn’t not agree with it I just didn’t feel the need to say it since my mind was in a similar place.

[ItalianoVD]

AND there was no one who bothered to tell me my read/logic was shit.

Hey my bad on that.

[ItalianoVD]

Fuck it. time to turn off brain this game and sheep Noraa I guess

VOTE: rlotus

I get you’re frustrated but can we not do this?

[ItalianoVD]

Any responses to my reads?

Can you go in more depth about your reads on Kyouko and Gamma?

[ItalianoVD]

RLotus seems more like a confused town than a scum. There's the extremely weird push on him for reading active people as town which is ??????????
What if none of them seem scummy to him? What's he supposed to say then, lie about a scumread?

I don’t agree with the confused part, but I’m pretty much in line with everything else there.

[ItalianoVD]

UNVOTE:

What is this?

What is this? There’s a vote count at the top?

[ItalianoVD]

Also, I feel like Scum Dunn says a word or 2 if the unvote was from a Lotus mindset.

What does that last part mean?

[ItalianoVD]

italiano, what's your read on lotus

346 495 498 503 510 568

[ItalianoVD]

Wrt 465, Itali, I'm kind of subscribing to Noraa's 532 in regards to kyouko and I feel like that post fits the narrative Noraa put forth

Okayy, I understand how Noraa feels. What do

you

think about it? Do you think scum would be that bold? And I’m referring to this in particular…

God damn it I was going to vote him first

I’ll wait until you answer before I give my thoughts on it.

[ItalianoVD]

Votecount

RLotus [5]:

Andresvmb, JohnnyFarrar, ssbm_Kyouko, Save The Dragons, Lukewarm

JohnnyFarrar [2]:

RLotus, ItalianoVD

Dunnstral [1]:

Gamma Emerald

Gamma Emerald [1]:

VFP

ItalianoVD [1]:

Free Money Free Tea

Not Voting: MaxTheFox, Dunnstral, Noraa

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to reach majority.

The day will end in (expired on 2021-05-28 14:33:00) or when majority is reached.

Okay so this is the last votecount. Please don’t do anything until I can catchup. It’s 3am right now, I was already sleep, but I know deadline is very close. I’m gonna have to set an alarm for 8:00 cause I’m exhausted. I’ll be back then to see what’s been happening.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: Free Money Free Tea

You had to have seen my post before hammering. What I was gonna say doesn’t even matter anymore. Anyway I’ll be back later.

[ItalianoVD]

I don’t know how to feel about all of these. I don’t believe scum would be this obvious.

Spoiler:

Also I activated my informed ability and learned 2 things. The first thing is that there is another player with the activated informed ability in the setup. The second thing I don't know if I want to share right now.

It depends on what the scum will know but possibly.

I learned that x is a negative utility, y. I also learned that someone is role a. I knoe x y and a but not alignment of either.

Also the activated is 1-shot.

The kind of negative utility scum want to know if town and town want to know if scum.

It should be fine to claim. I was informed that part of gamma emeralds role is cop enabler. I was also infomed there is some role a in the setup but not the player or alignment. A is an unflippedrole.

If he’s town it’s probably as bad as you can play and I just wanna get rid of him but I know that might not be optimal given what he’s posted.

I’d like to know why you hammered, especially when I specifically asked if no one could do anything until I could check in and catch-up?

[ItalianoVD]

I really don’t like 741. I don’t understand the logic, if it’s true, on making Gamma a target.

[ItalianoVD]

Luke was pointing right at kyouko most of the day yesterday, that's an obvious nightkill for kyouko scum

Maybe because I’m scumreading you and/or had questions about my read on ssbm, this reads to me like a setup. Didn’t you and Lukewarm have a few interactions? I don’t remember why you wanted to vote him, but I can see scum!you making that kill so you wouldn’t have to worry about him turning his sights on you.

[ItalianoVD]

Lukewarm dying was not an expected result.
im assuming our most powerful pr is dead so we should vote with caution from now on ig :/

I read your interaction with ssbm late in the day and I see you were having second thoughts on Lotus. I’m not coming after you but I’m curious why you didn’t try to push against Lotus harder?

[ItalianoVD]

Luke was pointing right at kyouko most of the day yesterday, that's an obvious nightkill for kyouko scum

That is what happened upon me, as well.

Ahh, so I’m guessing you don’t see it the way I do?

[ItalianoVD]

Luke is such a strange nk imo. he wasn't exactly widely TRed and I would assume he didn't crumb pr given he flipped vt

What do you think about 750?

[ItalianoVD]

Or 701?

[ItalianoVD]

Luke is such a strange nk imo. he wasn't exactly widely TRed and I would assume he didn't crumb pr given he flipped vt

I thought he was widely TRed, he was my only solid one

What are

your

thoughts on 701?

[ItalianoVD]

I worry the hammer might be too obvious coming from scum but I could be wrong

I’d like to think that and just submit to the fact I’m just being emotional, but that was bad my dude.

[ItalianoVD]

there was no time. if lotus had simply claimed either JKer or Cop, I would've 100% made sure we moved off but he didn't so I had no choice but to keep waiting for a claim. later in the day I started suspecting he was a town pr. I unvoted but I really couldn't do much else. it really is impossible to stop a large wagon that late in the day without a claim especially if they arent a hard TR of mine. I'm not willing to stop it bc what if it is scum? its a difficult balance

Aight yeah I definitely get that. It is a tough situation.

[ItalianoVD]

Luke is such a strange nk imo. he wasn't exactly widely TRed and I would assume he didn't crumb pr given he flipped vt

What do you think about 750?

Or 701?

those are both pretty flimsy and surface level reasonings but idk maybe? I just think they aren't very convincing

Well okay, I guess. I asked because you said you have a better understanding or feel for Johnny and wanted to know if the logic he used was something you’ve seen from town him or scum him.

[ItalianoVD]

I'd like people who SR me to explain why if it's not a gut read.

I mean I don’t particularly scumread you, but there isn’t enough content or interaction from you that I could sort you properly.

[ItalianoVD]

Like I don’t think you ever did this. Unless I missed it.

Any responses to my reads?

Can you go in more depth about your reads on Kyouko and Gamma?

[ItalianoVD]

better understanding or feel for Johnny

LOL NO. I have zero understanding for how that dude works. He's amazing and kind but I don't have any idea how to read him. I've played with him so many times but I really still have no clue how to read him.

Oh my bad. I thought you meant the opposite. Well that sucks, lol

[ItalianoVD]

Though I’m skeptical of how that makes me town

Well the cop was killed and thinking you could be town is not an impossible assumption. I wouldn’t think it, but maybe free money would.

[ItalianoVD]

I’m not. Claiming that there’s a Cop Enabler that they’re aware of after the Cop is flipped seems reasonable to me.

Ahh, mindmeld.

The hammer wasn’t, but I also don’t like the single handed focus here on them when the push onto RLotus was dreadful and we should have backed off.

This is true re Lotus. I feel like Free money is a distraction to that. Whether it’s just town being careless or a plan by scum to purposely try to take our eyes off of it I don’t know. But I agree there were multiple people pushing Lotus that should at least be looked at.

[ItalianoVD]

Spoiler:

FMFT, is role A an enabler that enables a role that you believe to be more likely to go to scum than town, for example, a rolecop enabler?

FMFT, is role A an enabler that enables a role that you believe to be more likely to go to scum than town, for example, a rolecop enabler?

Can just answer yes/no, we dont need to know which role is enabled yet

It should be fine to claim. I was informed that part of gamma emeralds role is cop enabler. I was also infomed there is some role a in the setup but not the player or alignment. A is an unflippedrole.

Were you specifically told that his role has more to it than that, or was it not specified, or was it worded in such a way that left it open to interpretation whether his role contains more?

These are kinda weird. Why are you wanting so much specific information?

[ItalianoVD]

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to quote the exact wording but the way I saw it the phrasin g meant it had more to it.

Sigh. Aight I guess we’ll have to see where this goes.

VOTE: Johnny

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: ssbm_kyouko
I don’t like the rolefishing that went down just now.

I’m not sure if I trust this fully, but I agree.

[ItalianoVD]

Ok idk who's town here and half the reason is because no matter who pushes what, immediately other people start moving to that wagon. its so damn hard to not just think all of these later thoughts that just switch from nothing aren't artificial as hell. Can we all just have our own reads or something?

Idk im so frustrated by this game in a way that I've never felt. Like normally I get annoyed because I find town but they don't agree with me or I find scum and no one agrees with me. But here I feel like no one has their own opinions and I don't even know what I'm doing. I literally need to bounce ideas off of other people, hear new opinions, and interact to figure out if my read is right. Here I just feel like I'm bouncing ideas off a mirror and that doesn't help me!!!!

Like I vote Lotus. People just mindlessly follow and now we have our top pr dead!!!
I really don't trust in my reads and someone literally needs to just keep arguing with my reads for me to think more!!!!!!!!!!!!

T.T don't follow my votes oml bc then if it ends up town I end up thinking its my faulttttt

I've never wished I was scum more than now tbh. Ugh life sucks.

This is why I was trying to get you to zero in on Johnny and you kinda just meh’d me. You said you don’t really know how to read him but every time I say something about it or try to push there you don’t really try to do anything or you say it’s probably not like that. I think we might be letting Johnny fly under the radar. You also did the same for Lukewarm. So I don’t know this kinda doesn’t feel like real sentiment to me.

[ItalianoVD]

Oh yeah and this...

Like I vote Lotus. People just mindlessly follow and now we have our top pr dead!!!

Come on Noraa. Hindsight is 20/20, so it’s easy to say this, but you weren’t saying this late day 1. I understand you said Lotus was a hard situation and I get that, but why are you now framing it like no one had anything to say about anything? As I said, Lukewarm was trying to push kyouko, you scumread him early but then didn’t and when Lukewarm started to really push him you dismissed him. I’ve said some things about Johnny and you kinda dismissed it as well. I believe others have said things and you didn’t really look into it, but don’t quote me on that, I’d have to look again to be sure. Like I get you have your reads, but if someone said that my townleans were wrong or that they were suspicious I’d at least try to look at them.

Also you keep saying our top pr is dead. Now I’m not great with mechanics but shouldn’t there at least be a protective or maybe another investigative role generally speaking?

[ItalianoVD]

Spoiler:

FMFT, is role A an enabler that enables a role that you believe to be more likely to go to scum than town, for example, a rolecop enabler?

FMFT, is role A an enabler that enables a role that you believe to be more likely to go to scum than town, for example, a rolecop enabler?

Can just answer yes/no, we dont need to know which role is enabled yet

It should be fine to claim. I was informed that part of gamma emeralds role is cop enabler. I was also infomed there is some role a in the setup but not the player or alignment. A is an unflippedrole.

Were you specifically told that his role has more to it than that, or was it not specified, or was it worded in such a way that left it open to interpretation whether his role contains more?

These are kinda weird. Why are you wanting so much specific information?

I had an idea that I've since realized will not work. I thought if FMFT would reveal role A we could popcorn partial claim whether we are A or not. I thought if nobody claimed A he was likely scum, but obviously if scum has role A they would just lie and say "not A"

I thought through several situations considering town/town, scum/town, town/scum, and scum/scum, and realized that it would be incorrect to elim either of them today. However, if one or both of them are scum, we need to lock down the specifics of their claims now on D2 so that when new flips or the additional informed claim, if it exists, come to light, those 2 cannot change their story. That is why I wanted specifics on why FMFT said "part of" Gamma's role, and why I wanted Gamma to confirm he is cop enabler. I dont want to leave them any wiggle room as I believe one or both will be eliminated in the next couple of Days.

I actually kinda like this. This might just be a town mindset because these type of plans/ideas/tie-downs usually come from town trying to trap scum instead of scum trying to setup town. Seems like a lot of work for scum to do. How likely would they actually do that? Ehh.

I don’t think all of them are scum (ssbm, free tea, and gamma), but I don’t think they’re all town either. I’m still trying to feel out what partnership would make the most sense to me. Gamma/ssbm, ssbm/free, or Gamma/free. Then I have to see which partnership makes the most sense to have Johnny in there with them.

[ItalianoVD]

Ok your point is? Its not like I'm the only player in the game? If you wanna get people to engage, you don't have to solely come to me?
No, no no don’t do that. I’m specifically responding to 799. I’m not coming to you, you’re coming to us.

I've tunneled mon and gotten him killed before. I will never do that again. Because he never puts up a fight and it makes me feel guilty as hell regardless of what he flips. I also just always sr him. Every single game.

Okay I understand you, but this is not a way to play the game. Yes we have friends in the game and people we genuinely like, but we can’t feel bad for pushing them and you should never feel bad pushing someone if they are scum and you are town. It’s part of the game and it’s competitive. As long as you’re not being rude or a jerk people understand it’s part of the competition. I just think you can be better than this and this excuse is very weak. Also I’m not telling you to agree with me, I’m asking you to show me if I’m wrong in my read or if you do agree show me something else I’ve missed. And I do this with everyone not just you. If I don’t have history with a player but someone else does I ask them what they feel about that person. We’re not gonna agree 100% but their read is something I take into consideration or at least try to.

[ItalianoVD]

Man

Ok your point is? Its not like I'm the only player in the game? If you wanna get people to engage, you don't have to solely come to me?

No, no no don’t do that. I’m specifically responding to 799. I’m not coming to you, you’re coming to us.

[ItalianoVD]

Spoiler:

I'm not blaming other people? Barely any people talked for lotus and wtf did you want me to do? It was late day 1. There is zero way to stop a wagon like that without a claim. Zero. You treat me like a town leader and the only person that has authority when that is not the case. The rest of town is just doing a lousy job(overall) which makes it seem like that. People did mindlessly follow which contributed to this outcome. I never blamed other people straight up. Everyone has fault here in some way or another. I just want people to have more opinions because the overall game state and mindset is a sheeping mindset which is fs going to lead to a town loss if I'm the person we're sheeping. Why are you blaming it on me? And is there a point in this? You make it sound like its bc I didnt listen to you that this happened. Do you really think my one vote would've changed everything yesterday? Not to mention the lotus wagon didnt even have me on it at the end. So what if I don't comment on certain things? No one is stopping you from doing anything but you're making it seem like you need my approval to do things. Don't blame things on me. I've stated multiple times that I don't know wtf I'm doing this game.

I did look into lotus. The issue was that I needed a claim. I did start to TR him at the end of day 1. But I will not attempt stop a wagon nearing deadline unless I am 100% sure they are town or they claim pr. Whats so difficult to understand about that? And also who do you think I am? A cabd or unwnd? I'm not going to comment on absolutely everything. You make it sound like I have to be a perfect town leader when I have zero obligation to do anything for any of you. I don't want to be a town leader. Nor am I perfect. If you wanted a perfect town leader, you came to the wrong place. And I'm overall just pretty offended that you're turning this around and making it seem like it's my fault. Although I personally do think its a very large portion my fault, its mean to be pushing the blame on me when I've been constantly thinking about this game and putting so much effort into trying to find scum. If you don't appreciate my effort, then you won't get my effort. I'm not posting for the next three irl days.

I’m not treating you like a town leader, I’m treating you like a person who is probably town and someone I can trust. I don’t treat anyone like a leader, but if I feel like I can somewhat trust them then I am going to somewhat trust them to do what I would do if I can’t do it.

This was less about alllllll of the rest of that and more about you saying people were sheeping and no one had any opinions on anything and just sheeping. I’m telling you that’s not true and pointed out when people did have opinions it seemed like you couldn’t be bothered, not that you actually were, but that it “

seemed

” like it. If my perception is off then forgive me, but that’s how I read it.

Also I am not blaming you for Lotus in the slightest, that was on all of us. My apologies if you felt like that’s what I was saying. Again my response was for 799 and 799 only, which made me feel some type of way because I’m like “but people were saying things and did have opinions” so that’s the only reason why I responded the way I did. I’ve already made peace with the rest of that and have/had no reason to mention it anymore.

[ItalianoVD]

Last Noraa post is a bit emotional but I'm still feeling town there.

Umm, when did you feel town?

[ItalianoVD]

Alright I have info that I'm ready to out: I have the role of backup lazy cop. So, when rtlotus died I became a lazy cop; I checked Free Money Free Tea and he is indeed mafia

Ok cool

VOTE: Free money

[ItalianoVD]

That’s hammer isn’t it

[ItalianoVD]

I don’t think all of them are scum (ssbm, free tea, and gamma), but I don’t think they’re all town either. I’m still trying to feel out what partnership would make the most sense to me. Gamma/ssbm, ssbm/free, or Gamma/free. Then I have to see which partnership makes the most sense to have Johnny in there with them.

I spotted two assumptions in this. Can you explain why you are making them?

Umm, you’re gonna have to explain cause I’m not sure what you mean.

[ItalianoVD]

I have large amounts of dripping paranoia on Andres and have had it for the longest time but it could just be that im wrong :/

I feel this but am absolutely cool with fighting those feelings and voting Gamma. Does anyone have any serious objections?

No objections. Is Andres a guy or do you really see something I may have missed.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry Noraa. I hope you read my responses to you late Day 2. Hope I didn’t make you feel some type of way.

[ItalianoVD]

BTW, you really think Johnny is town here?

[ItalianoVD]

But anyway, I think Kyouko has to be confirmed town at this point

Why is this?

[ItalianoVD]

Also what were you trying to ask me in 840 and 893? Are you asking why I was mentioning who I thought to be partners?

[ItalianoVD]

Can I at least have a chance to defend myself? Like, everyone is saying I’m scum with FMFT over what, me reacting strangely to having my role outed?

Along with your play for me and just the feel of your posts. Your interaction with Dunnstral and also Kyouko.

[ItalianoVD]

Do you not think FMFT tries to run that by me in the scum PT first?

Free money didn’t peg me as someone who would have run anything past anyone. That hammer was terrible and obvious so I’m not sure if he would have said anything about his plans or otherwise to you.

[ItalianoVD]

Is Andres a guy

1. I assume you meant gut

2. I've never seen Andres be this wrong before, nor have I ever even

felt

like voting him before, so Andres defo has my guts a-churnin

Yeah I meant to say is Andres gut for you…

What has be wrong about? He’s only really voted or gone after Gamma.

[ItalianoVD]

I was asking why you thought two scum was in that group you were working with, and why you seemed certain of johnny being scum

I thought Johnny was scum due to his play around Noraa and also Lotus on Day 1. Then his synopsis of the Lukewarm kill was suspicious to me. At the time I was working under the assumption that Johnny was scum. So within Free Money, you, and Kyouko I was trying to see if any combination made sense with Johnny as a partner.

I still think Johnny could be trying to town it up with Noraa as to not set off her radar. I don’t know, but I think you stand out more for me at this point for obvious reasons.

VOTE: Gamma

[ItalianoVD]

I wouldn't draw that conclusion from an obvious alt. Could have easily been a persona they were affecting

I guess. It doesn’t matter if it’s an alt or real account though anyone playing like that doesn’t seem like there’d be too much reasoning with them.

[ItalianoVD]

right so FMFT was a goon. that means either theres a scum role cop and gamma is town.
Or gamma is just scum and they coordinated that in hopes of keeping fmft alive and now its backfiring really badly

Doesn’t mafia cop mean there is a traitor? Or is there another reason for it?

[ItalianoVD]

Let’s note there’s a substantial period of time between the initial claim of Informed and the reveal of my role
So there was ABSOLUTELY a time where I would have been able to question him on his plans, were I scum with him.

In theory yes, but as I’ve stated I just don’t know if I believe you would’ve been able to.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry if it looks like I’m going back and forth right now, I’m still trying to catchup.

[ItalianoVD]

Save the Dragons is thinking like me or I should say I’m thinking like him regarding Free Money.

[ItalianoVD]

I mean mon always seems scummy to me. So like if ur asking if I think he's scummy, yeah I do. But I always think that so it might just mean his town tbh.

Was there ever a time where you scum read him right? If so what was it that did it for you?

[ItalianoVD]

I'm glad someone finally said something about Johnny's reaction to Lukewarm

I said something about it in 750 also.

[ItalianoVD]

role cop learns role, not alignment

Yeah I know I said Mafia cop.

[ItalianoVD]

Think I'll have to reread d2 cuz I feel convinced Gamma's being framed and I'm just confbiasing at this point.

Ehhh, I don’t really see that. If he is town, what would be the reason for scum to frame him when he was getting scumread from several slots? I think it’s a stretch. Sometimes it’s just what it is and I think Gamma is just scum.

[ItalianoVD]

For anyone SRing Gamma, sell me on potential partners in the meantime while I read? Open to wild theories.

Nothing has really changed for me. I think scum is in some combination of Gamma, you, and Johnny. The way you and Gamma have sort of cleared each other at this point is kinda unusual.

[ItalianoVD]

Cool my other SR was true.

VOTE: VFP this is still most likely scum.

I don't believe Gamma is scum at least right now. VFP is the second mafia member. We can do this.

You too? Has VFP really stood out

more

than Gamma?

[ItalianoVD]

Spoiler:

I think VFP knew Gamma's role before it was revealed yesterDay and jumped the gun on voting him during FMFT'S partial claim. VFP was very active during the FMFT claim, more active than he has generally been in this game and prior to him voting Gamma for [reasons?] He had not voiced any suspicion of Gamma. Soon after he just says "I trust Gamma", switches to voting me, again for [reasons] (rolefishing?) and finally switches to Noraa for [reasons], although he has voiced suspicion of Noraa on D1 because she TRed him. He votes several people besides FMFT despite being one of the first onto his wagon. I think he wanted to get the vote in early before it looked like a bus as a hedge bet, and when FMFT wasn't speedlimmed for hammering RLotus, VFP saw a chance to try to shift the wagon without looking too suspicious.

As Noraa has pointed out his interaction with Max has been unusual his game but if you read them both you'll see Max's tone is fairly consistent and is likely to come from a newbie, regardless of alignment. VFP is also very actively (for VFP) keeping the idea of a Max lynch fresh hut never votes her. He also consistently discredits her and I think it's probably because 1) she's easy to discredit as a newbie and 2) people arent really paying attention to what she's saying as it is

Also threw in a quick look at the votes D1 and LMAO he was voting Gamma from RVS until Lotus was E-2. He did not push Gamma D1 and then morning of D2 he comes out the gate bussing his teammate who hammered the very same person he put to E-2

VOTE: VFP

I'm going to assume that there either is no Follower and that part of Gamma's role is modbait, or scum has the follower, and that is why nobody has said anything yet

Let's keep it that way unless the follower saw someone visit Dunn

[quote="In post 1031, ssbm_Kyouko"

Also threw in a quick look at the votes D1 and LMAO he was voting Gamma from RVS until Lotus was E-2. He did not push Gamma D1 and then morning of D2 he comes out the gate bussing his teammate who hammered the very same person he put to

E-1

VOTE: VFP

EBWOP - E-1*[/quote]

Ugh, in 1031 I meant to say VFP sat on Gamma all day then moved his vote to RLotus, putting RLotus to E-1

Uhh, yeah no. I don’t buy this.

Think about it, according to several players VFP has scummy posts and overall play, etc. He could more than likely just be trolling town? While someone could probably argue that Gamma has townie posts what’s transpired so far point to him being scum. Am I off in this? Somebody help me here.

[ItalianoVD]

I have no idea what’s happening on pgs 44-45 between VFP and Noraa.

[ItalianoVD]

Is that really a fair question, given the disparity in post counts? I'm more likely to stand out given I've stuck my neck out more.

I’m not at all talking about post counts, but I think you know that.

To me it feels like you're trying to conclude I'm scum and VFP is town in spite of the current state of our play
In order for that to track, you're gonna have to actually explain the thought process you're having

Well I pretty much said it in my last post.

[ItalianoVD]

I haven't cleared Gamma, I just think scum!Gamma is too easy. FMFT, from the scum team's POV, is likely screwed already coming into D2 because of the RLotus flip. Maybe if FMFT had lolhammered a VT, people could have been convinced the hammer came from town. Instead of trying to hold on to a full team he essentially fired a flare and said come and get me. I don't think it makes any sense to out scum!Gamma there. I think the hope was to line him up for a future mlim, and I dont want FMFT to get 2 for 1. Maybe it was just a bad play and Gamma is scum, but I'd like to think a team of 3 could come up with something better than that.

I understand it's going to be hard to get through to you on this because you see me as a potential partner of Gamma's but I'd ask you to set that aside for a minute and look at it from FMFT's POV, see if any of this clicks

Alright. Fair enough. I’ll take a look at it later.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: Gamma

[ItalianoVD]

@ItalianoVD: Can you explain a bit more about what you meant in post 748?

At the time I was maybe trying to go with the idea that Free Money was town and if he was and you were as well, I didn’t get why he would out you, not just you but anyone for that matter. I don’t see the benefit in it. Seems like something you’d try to keep to yourself; at least the specifics of that information. Obviously that’s not how I feel now.

[ItalianoVD]

And why was Noraa killed now? She was pretty much townread all game. What’s up with the timing?

[ItalianoVD]

Luke was pointing right at kyouko most of the day yesterday, that's an obvious nightkill for kyouko scum

That is what happened upon me, as well.

I assume you don’t still feel this way since you said you've locktown’d ssbm. If this is still true, what is your view on Johnny?

[ItalianoVD]

...since you said you've locktown’d ssbm...

Well I should clarify that you threw it out there to see what others thought of it. Doesn’t necessarily mean you think it.

[ItalianoVD]

I stand by my case. VFP looked extremely scummy. Unfortunate that he was town but if normal games could have jesters I'd have thought he was one. But they don't, so I thought he was scum trying to act "cool".

Who do you think is scum at this point now? You mentioned Gamma. I think now would be a time to show that that read was real.

[ItalianoVD]

I was going to wait to respond to this but I dont have any TRs left now and I think that partly sums up the kills.

I’m kinda with you here, but I’d say my only townread is Save the Dragons and mayybe Andres. Everyone else is either nullscum or scum to me.

[ItalianoVD]

Well how DO you feel now?

What do you mean how do I feel now? I’ve said it.

[ItalianoVD]

So did we just forget about this game? I’ve been busy and haven’t been able to check in but I figured I’d come in and it’d be pages to catch up on.

Is Andres playing in other games? I’ll be back later to follow up on anything I missed.

[ItalianoVD]

i'm just here to remind everyone that gamma is scum and i really want this fucking pizza still

Well yeah, but no one seems to be playing anymore. It wasn’t VFP so maybe we can vote off scum yeah guys?

[ItalianoVD]

It was a joke

What was a joke? The tinfoil theory or the “scum and/or town” quote?

[ItalianoVD]

I think we need to go Gamma and don’t second guess. We should’ve went there yesterday.

It also seemed like ssbm was setting himself up not to vote for Gamma once the role information came out. Like to me that was even more of a reason to vote there. Then there was the weird kyouko vote by Gamma claiming he was rolefishing, but then a townlock attempt the next day iirc. Then the early day 1 interaction and positioning between the two on the VFP wagon, etc. Maybe I was wrong on Johnny and it’s just Gamma and ssbm.

[ItalianoVD]

What’s going on in 1233 1235 & 1236

[ItalianoVD]

I would have targeted Italiano N1. Look at Italiano’s solve in 351. This is why I think they’re either Scum with STD or just Town. They’re entire Town pool at that stage is of flipped Town, except for STD. How is that not remarkable?

That’s what I’ve been saying to myself. If scum really is within Johnny, Gamma, ssbm, then I should be dead. That’s why I asked about Noraa because I was thinking I was gonna be the nightkill. Noraa kinda jumped off of Gamma late to get into that weird exchange with VFP even though she still scumread him.

[ItalianoVD]

I was at some point tinfoiling a Team with Italiano in it (given their apparent accuracy, how are they still alive?), but Lukewarm was possibly a more direct threat to Scum, Dunn was a PR execution, and Noraa was just clearly Town, and started pushing Gamma. I really can’t imagine Gamma should live beyond today in this game. I think if Gamma survives, we’re collectively game throwing. It’s too risky to do anything else.

Yeah it makes sense, but I was expecting to get killed before Noraa. It’s crazy because I’m usually left for lylo and it’s probably simply because I’m terrible at it.

[ItalianoVD]

Oh dhit hes e-1 I have a guilty on andres

Really So who have a guilty now that Gamma is at L1?

[ItalianoVD]

Gosh I hate this game sometimes.

[ItalianoVD]

What’s going on in 1233 1235 & 1236

pretty self explanatory

Umm its actually not self explanatory, otherwise I wouldn’t have asked, lol. He said “it’s not in thread yet” and you asked “could it be”. On no levels is that self explanatory.

[ItalianoVD]

Yeah I’m not unvoting. I don’t understand what’s going on and frankly at this point I don’t care anymore. I’m pretty much with 1308.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry, I meant 1303

[ItalianoVD]

Oh, okay I get it now. Thanks. I thought when he said what he said and then you said “could it be” it sounded like you had an epiphany, so I was lost.

[ItalianoVD]

Like I said, it’s crazy but I believe my read is better than whatever shenanigans seems to be transpiring here. I believe Andres is probably town and I obviously don’t wanna vote there. And it looks like Gamma is the Teflon don here. Anyway, let’s see where this goes.

VOTE: kyouko

[ItalianoVD]

Really, what the heck dude? Why would you do that? Don’t try to be a hero man.

Anyway, so I was wrong about ssbm and Johnny. Maybe I’m just wrong about Gamma too. Lol, it would make sense why I’m still alive. I don’t know though. I mean I think I’m still okay with Andres despite what happened late day 4. I don’t think I’m gonna understand what kyouko was thinking there so I’m not gonna try. Andres being scum here is kinda meh.

Max and Save the Dragons? I just gotta look back at them cause I gotta admit they haven’t really been in the forefront for me. I kinda thought I had figured things out. Anyway I’ll holla at y’all tomorrow; been traveling all day and I’m dead tired.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry guys business has been ramping up lately and I’ve been crazy busy. I know I said I’d be checking in today which I will be but it’ll be later. I should more than likely be able to get on for real for real at around 7-7:30pm my time, which is on the west coast.

[ItalianoVD]

Sigh, yeah I’m sorry guys, I’m not really feeling this game. I know I said I was gonna come in and catchup, but to be honest I actually don’t feel like it and I’m trying my hardest to get into it, but it just ain’t there for me. And it’s been a long day on top of that. The more posts I tried to read and analyze the less I trust. Everyone sounds like scum at this point. Ssbm’s play was terrible and my play has been terrible. I’ve been wrong about pretty much everything and people I’ve scumread has died. I’m just kinda out of it to try and figure it out, sorry if that’s unhelpful, but it is what it is. If you wanna ask me things you can, but this is how I feel at the moment…

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano before you put a vote down I want to have a conversation with you.

Are you here? What’s up?

[ItalianoVD]

I’ll be here pretty much all morning

[ItalianoVD]

Well based on my poe I’ll probably end up voting within Max or Gamma. I just don’t see you or Dragons being it, but if you are then hey good game. Gamma has had more of a scum impact on me then Max. It feels like I should be voting for who seemingly has more scum points for me but like I said I’ve been wrong about the others could I be wrong about Gamma? Or is this the time I’m right?

[ItalianoVD]

It’s hard to trust anyone at this stage, but my feel for the situation is that Max pulled the trigger on a vote because they quickly realized that they were running out of options. I think they always lose a 1v1 against me and they also already said I was Town. Trying to fabricate a case against me at that stage probably looks Scummy as all hell. So instead, they went for the vote they hoped a Town player would make - Gamma.

Makes sense.

[ItalianoVD]

I think STD has attached themselves to you more than the other way around (particularly since you TR there early), and I think that was an intentional Scum tactic. But maybe your insight into how you see that would help.

We kinda mindmelded on Free Money because I genuinely thought he (fm) was kinda a loose cannon and I thought his play around Dunnstral was better then Gamma. Do you think him following you onto kyouko was scumminded?

[ItalianoVD]

Oh wait Andres unvoted me, I forgot. Still, vote Gamma.

This is also a bit of a perspective slip. If you think about it, if my vote was still on, then what is Fox doing voting for Gamma? I would be guaranteed Scum to them since everyone else came onto the thread already.

Did Max say who Gamma’s partner was?

[ItalianoVD]

I think STD has attached themselves to you more than the other way around (particularly since you TR there early), and I think that was an intentional Scum tactic. But maybe your insight into how you see that would help.

Thinking on this again, it would make sense why I’m not dead. If Dragons is scum then he was never in danger from me and me going after Johnny, ssbm, and gamma was perfect for the team. Ugh.

[ItalianoVD]

I’ll wait for him to respond but that kinda sucks bro

[ItalianoVD]

If you think I’m Town, I think you should trust me when I say that I think Gamma is Town.

Ugh, I’m kinda starting too.

[ItalianoVD]

If it’s Max and Dragons then a whole lot has opened up in the “makes sense” department for me.

[ItalianoVD]

it ain't me bro

i wanted gamma first because i trusted my read. i'm not sure what to think now that we've wasted time on a kyouko lim. i'm getting paranoid about who the scum could be at this point.

Could you respond to the stuff said about you?

[ItalianoVD]

I think that was for me. I’m talking about this...

I think STD has attached themselves to you more than the other way around (particularly since you TR there early), and I think that was an intentional Scum tactic. But maybe your insight into how you see that would help.

We kinda mindmelded on Free Money because I genuinely thought he (fm) was kinda a loose cannon and I thought his play around Dunnstral was better then Gamma. Do you think him following you onto kyouko was scumminded?

I think STD has attached themselves to you more than the other way around (particularly since you TR there early), and I think that was an intentional Scum tactic. But maybe your insight into how you see that would help.

We kinda mindmelded on Free Money because I genuinely thought he (fm) was kinda a loose cannon and I thought his play around Dunnstral was better then Gamma. Do you think him following you onto kyouko was scumminded?

I actually have a different theory about it.

STD was clearly resisting (though not as openly) voting between Kyouko and Me. They clearly wanted Gamma first. The reason for that is because then a victory is guaranteed from a Scum!STD perspective - Gamma flips Town say, and then all you have to do is NK Johnny and wait for one of Kyouko or Me to put a vote down for the other and the Town loses. And you know it’ll happen because they had a “guilty” on me.

[ItalianoVD]

I’m responding to 1503

[ItalianoVD]

Okay unless someone is bad mannered there’s a confirmed Scum in Gamma/Fox. I know where my vote is going. I want some clarity as to what STD and Italiano want to do, and you need to do it now.

Wait what? You’re confusing me bro.

[ItalianoVD]

{max, italiano} or {max, andres} but i can't figure out which

Well it isn’t me and I don’t think it’s Andres. He has to be playing some next level type of stuff if he is.

[ItalianoVD]

Wait what? You’re confusing me bro.

Gamma / Fox are cross-voting and everyone has checked in. So now is the time for us to begin debating Partners because clearly that pairing has 1 Scum. That’s what I’m saying.

But I’m saying coming from you that shouldn’t be a pairing. It’s saying if Fox is not scum then Gamma is, that’s why it’s confusing.

[ItalianoVD]

Or am I just understanding it wrong?

[ItalianoVD]

Okay I got it now, I had to read it couple of times. Don’t mind me.

[ItalianoVD]

FMFT didn't get that information about gamma out of nowhere ugh it could be gamma

I haven’t been able to get this out of my head. I mean that whole thing was part of the reason I was pushing Gamma unapologetically.

[ItalianoVD]

I mean are we falling into the wifom trap of not thinking scum would bus at this point in the game? Or that it isn’t just Max and Gamma? I mean they could be okay in this 1v1 knowing the other could push the “partner” in f3.

[ItalianoVD]

Ugh gosh I hate this game. Why just dismiss the thoughts (1530 - 1532). Whether you think they are tinfoil or not they are legitimate concerns imo. I’ve tried to listen to the other stories and thoughts from everyone and I have to go with my heart here. I’ve been trying to kill Gamma since probably day 2 or something and he keeps getting away and I can’t just get these concerns out of my mind. I’ve regretted overthinking in the past and have been burned by it before so I have to feel comfortable and I’m just more comfortable here.

VOTE: Gamma

I urge you to rethink Gamma Andres.

[ItalianoVD]

Good game guys. Great job Max, you were great! being partners with you. I’m out right now, but I’ll sit down later and answer questions and stuff. For the record I really was/am busy and business really was ramping up for me.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: gamma

This is what I was hoping for. Sorry Dragons.

[ItalianoVD]

Following that little vote from Italiano I obviously would have voted there in ELo since clearly my vote for Max was correct. That’s unfortunate that I succeeded in not tunneling Gamma to still lose haha well it is what it is. I really can’t imagine that Max/Gamma are both Scum.

I genuinely thought this game was over and I was truly hoping that Dragons didn’t vote Max. If he did there was no combination of the f3 that would’ve not pointed to me imo.

[ItalianoVD]

we could have but scum did a good job convincing me they weren't scum so shrug

Good game otherwise Dragons, sorry brother.

[ItalianoVD]

No matter how you slice it town gambits are stupid and you should get executed everytime.

[ItalianoVD]

Terrible play doesn’t get it just punishment; too many people just brush it off like “oh that’s townie, whatever.” I’m of the lynch all liars and bad players camp. Even if its me I stand on that mantra and players should be punished for playing bad or lying. Period. If I was town I would not have been upset I would’ve thought “we’ll good for you” It’s probably harsh but that’s the only way for players to get better or not try things that would be detrimental to the town.