Mini Normal 2213 - Village (End Game)

[Andresvmb]

Hi. I’m Town.

VOTE: Noraa

[Andresvmb]

I’m VLA here until tomorrow btw. I am extremely hungover and it’s not going to get better until tomorrow haha

[Andresvmb]

Hahahaha Noraa I love you. No I don’t care about offending anyone you’re right about that. And it’s not that I’ll be completely removed from the game. It’s just that I have a few things to do today and I’m hungover so don’t expect much in the form of contributions from me. That’s really it.

[Andresvmb]

Noraa’s argument as to why I’m Scum is horrible. But beyond that, why not give me time to get into the game? Anyone who has played with me knows that I’m not a marginal player - at least I don’t think so. So why not give me a minute? My weekend ended up being busier and I fell asleep reading another game I am on with the phone in my hand.

[Andresvmb]

And can the mod prod Andres or something. That dude's like 45% definitely scum so like we can't have him lurking off.

This game has been on for 2 days and I clearly couldn’t get into it over the weekend. This is desperate and embarrassing.

[Andresvmb]

And hahaha the thought that I would say I can’t get on to play but would have the time to coach someone is nothing short of laughable. I don’t have to lie about my activity to win a game as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway it’s the middle of the workday for me so I need to focus but I will be back tonight for sure. I’ll catch up, provide some thoughts. But some of that made up logic should get the scrutiny it deserves.

[Andresvmb]

Noraa no disrespect but, you asking me to look back into my mistakes without acknowledging that you played poorly there is uhm interesting. You incorrectly SR’ed me in that game and somewhat tunneled me and I definitely didn’t do the same to you. Though we definitely did have a style clash. So not quite sure what you’re talking about.

[Andresvmb]

Andres is my favorite option. his overall posting is just bad and he's refused to engage me multiple times.

I’m not refusing to engage you.

I just finished a game that took a lot out of me. And the thought of dealing with you honestly is a bit annoying. You constantly think you know what’s what when you don’t and for some reason you think you know how to read me even though you tunneled me when I was Town. You also know I’m not a bad player yet your first instinct is to want to get rid of me D1. So yeah I am back to thinking you could be Scum and I just want to ignore that side of me and slide to the background.

[Andresvmb]

andres are you caught up? you seem to only post when noraa pings you

I’m reading. Now that the other game is over, I’ll give this one more time. I just don’t want Noraa to say I’m not engaging, or drive my mis-execution without me getting time to engage properly.

[Andresvmb]

You're making such a big deal out of it

I get constantly aggravated in games by players saying this kind of stuff. So what if I want to focus on a particular point? If you want to say that purely focusing on how you in particular are reading me is Scummy, then say that. Unless you have my meta nailed down (which you obviously don’t since you’ve tunneled me as Town and are SR’ing me here), is me caring about whether any one player is SR’ing me indicative to you of anything? Because what I think you’ll find is that I tend to care more about games when I’m Town, or I showcase my frustration more easily. Don’t take my word for it - just read my completed games.

[Andresvmb]

In any case, by accusing me of making a big deal out of something, it’s almost like you would rather I roll over and die as Town. Unfortunately, I was trying to avoid straight up losing a game (which we did anyway), and had my focus on that. I’m sorry I didn’t have time to go through RVS with you all. Frankly, I tend to do far better when I can make a specific case for someone without getting pushed and reading unadulterated thoughts that don’t involve my alignment. Yeah I know you want to get thoughts from me early and that’s okay but they’re mostly garbage and my early reads tend to be bad. I keep having to say it and it’s just true.

[Andresvmb]

I tend to care more about games when I’m Town

You just saw me in a game, and how I started and how it ended. For you this really should be straightforward.

[Andresvmb]

Do we all agree ssbm is just Town? Or not yet?

[Andresvmb]

And Andres dipped off saying he was drunk and still hasn't come back.

Btw I was hungover, not drunk. I was drunk the day before. That lead to the hangover. If I said that on a Saturday, I believe I kept drinking that day too, so I didn’t end up resting. If it was Sunday, I was resting.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I think ssbm has a much better handle of the gamestate than I ever could this early so I’m going to sheep them.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[Andresvmb]

I have a lot of respect for Andres game as well

Damn. This is a lot of pressure. Thanks Johnny. I’ll try and work hard this game then.

[Andresvmb]

Literally every stance Kyouko has made feels off to me. Like they are hunting for excuses to scum read people (which scum do), instead of actually reading people (which townies do)

VOTE: Kyouko

I also think there’s potential (take this with a grain of salt) that Lukewarm is Scum.

I think Lukewarm’s thinking process is scary good. All anybody needs to do is read 144 to come to this conclusion. There is a level of attentiveness behind that post that tends to be hard to showcase as Scum. In a way, I agree, actually. I felt the same way reading Gamma’s post in that they seemed self-conscious, defending a point that most other players, in the grand scheme of things, probably ignore. But you know what? I think Scum are more likely to not make the clarification Gamma made, rather than the reverse. I think Lukewarm is grabbing onto something they know they can effectively paint as Scummy, that I don’t think really is. It’s a clever move.

Now, I could be WAY off. Lukewarm is definitely a challenging player to read and they seem methodical. But I TR ssbm, and I don’t like their push there, and they seem somewhat obstinate. So that’s enough for me to express my suspicions of the slot.

[Andresvmb]

It’s early, I suck, yada yada ignore me if you think I’m just plain wrong.

[Andresvmb]

I think Nor generating a lot of content is a town feel for me.
I got a town read for save. I'm not quite sure exactly.
I really can't make reads on people who haven't posted much.
I got a weird feel about ITA and Gamma that I might read into.

huh how'd I miss this post. I hate it on so many levels. anyone feel similar feelings?

I feel differently. UC Voyager could have easily faded into the background (I don’t think anybody has even paid much attention to them, pushing Dunn and I as the biggest lurkers). But instead, they came in to express some vague feelings that don’t seem all that crazy, a good read on you Noraa (despite our clashes, it is quite possible you’re Town here in my humble estimation), and an admission of uncertainty about a variety of slots. Now, this post can be EASILY replicated by Scum, so if that’s what you meant sure, I would agree. I still think it overall leans somewhat positively, but not by much.

[Andresvmb]

Andre- I think I have a decent read on him, albeit it is a small sample size and he was town both times I played with him
Italiano- read him wrong the one game I played, but eh idk he's not too difficult to read I suppose

RLotus, can we be masons this game? I think I TR you.

[Andresvmb]

I don't think that post must be from scum but it was a bad post and I don't see why you think it leans town.

Mostly because instead of waiting to put out more fleshed out thoughts to seem Townie, they threw out there what they had. You know, not all of us can be slayers of Scum. But I understand your skepticism.

[Andresvmb]

I have a lot of respect for Andres game as well

Damn. This is a lot of pressure. Thanks Johnny. I’ll try and work hard this game then.

Here 4 u bb. Hit me up when your done with your read if you wanna just chat it out. I'm having a hard time engaging

Yeah I’m almost caught up. You can also just ask me directly about something I post. It’s the easiest way to get a response out of me.

[Andresvmb]

And hahaha the thought that I would say I can’t get on to play but would have the time to coach someone is nothing short of laughable. I don’t have to lie about my activity to win a game as Scum.

Yeah apparently we’re partners and you coached me to start posting “differently”. I think it’s more of an insult that if I was scum I’d need coaching.

Actually I would have been offended by that post too now that I think about it hahaha

[Andresvmb]

I don't think that post must be from scum but it was a bad post and I don't see why you think it leans town.

Mostly because instead of waiting to put out more fleshed out thoughts to seem Townie, they threw out there what they had. You know, not all of us can be slayers of Scum. But I understand your skepticism.

Mmmm I think there's a thin line between filler post and not fully fleshed out post. We can agree to disagree.
Ftr I like that you're actually engaging everything and more calm than earlier. Much appreciated.

I’ll be honest with you - I was deeply frustrated about the outcome of a game. I think if you read my after game comments (and you can look for it, I don’t want to quote it directly here it still kind of makes me angry), you’ll understand. I stepped away, had food and did some work, and came back with a refreshed mind wanting to catch Scum. So that’s helping.

[Andresvmb]

Limming Andres is not on my bucket list just because he'll kick up a whole fuss and I'd rather not deal with that rn

You cannot possibly expect to have me in a game as Town and not kick up a fuss when I’m wagoned haha you know, I have not been mis-executed in this forum, not once, made it to Endgame multiple times (and never been voted there either), and been largely and easily TR’ed a lot. Even when the Scum clearly wanted me dead and wagoned me, they couldn’t get me through the finish line. So yeah, you shouldn’t expect anything else.

[Andresvmb]

Meh I need to UNVOTE: . I don’t really SR Italiano to be totally honest.

[Andresvmb]

Lotus can you make me a cool Noraa list of who you've played with before and how you fare against town/ scum them?

So no response to 301 at all?

Ita, I don't think Mon is a wagon that's going to happen today. Even if he's scum, today isn't the day to push it imo. I think everyone agrees that the lim pool is like {Andres, Dunn, ssb, you]

Also haha what’s up with that execution pool? Everyone agrees? Hahaha I saw multiple folks wanting to give me some time to catch up. I’m a little confused about the need to narrow it down like this here.

[Andresvmb]

That’s like 40% of Day 1 to come up with a vote. I don’t see the rush just yet. I’ll feel differently in 36 hours.

[Andresvmb]

Did either of you read through that little spat I had with Kyoko? Did that read like a style clash?

I thought your point was solid. You were asking to be treated like an individual and not have your vote “hopping” be treated equal to others that had seemingly acted the same around the “low-content” slots if you will. I respect that. I also understand were ssbm is coming from though. They see a vote change, they expect reasoning. That’s understandable. I think expecting reasoning though often leads to failure haha there’s some excellent gut based players that have a feel for gamestate and will move their votes accordingly, and can’t necessarily pin point to a specific reason why they SR someone. And also, most Town players are bad at explaining themselves and have really obvious gaps in logic. If you SR bad logic, you will often find yourself mis-executing players. But that’s just my take.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, yeah, style clash. I don’t SR it.

[Andresvmb]

I like what I see from ssbm, it feels like they are making a genuine effort to investigate.

I get the feeling gamma is trying to draw content out of people rather than trying to take advantage of lurker slots.

So, I'm feeling something like this rn

Town lean
IVD
ssbm
Gamma
Nora

Null
Andre
Max
Luke
Save the Dragons
UCV
VFP
Dunn
Johnny

Lotus, you don’t have a single SR? Nobody that pings you? If I was ever going to be offended by anything, it would be that hahaha

[Andresvmb]

Ok cool. Thoughts on Max? Not exactly lurking but they occupy the same space in my brain

Actually I would execute Max here. Fine, you don’t think there’s much to analyze. I can’t complain too much about that, though I would argue you’re wrong. But the only player they seem to want to comment on (and defend) is Noraa. That’s it. Why? Seems rather strange. If you really didn’t want to stand out, act like Max.

[Andresvmb]

Lotus, you don’t have a single SR? Nobody that pings you? If I was ever going to be offended by anything, it would be that hahaha

He sorted by post count and put the top 4 as town

leans

, threw everyone else in null, and called it a day

Omg. This is actually true. I am somewhat horrified. If you couldn’t come up with any valid reasoning to TR players (because, you know, you’re Scum, this is how to do it).

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: RLotus

Alright Lotus, let’s not be masons. You definitely need to sharpen your pencil.

[Andresvmb]

Gamma, Lotus, and Andres are going to need prods soon

Stop acting like the prod police it’s annoying. That’s why the game has a Mod.

[Andresvmb]

Like this shit for example

But you’re shading here without expressing a SR directly. If you think someone is stretching to make a point, that’s clearly Scummy.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think the way your wagon developed Lotus was necessarily Scummy. But I like your response there. One of these late comers might be piling on as Scum. Let me catch up.

[Andresvmb]

Why did you agree in the fact of how you felt when reading Gamma only to say, but no it’s scummy to pickup and push on that. And what was wrong with the push on Kyouko? I know you townread him but you don’t see Lukewarm’s push coming from town at all?

I agree with the point (Gamma wanting to make sure that a point made about them was cleared up, which maybe looks defensive), but not with the conclusion that it was Scummy. That’s all. You’ve surely seen Town clear up points about themselves to eliminate any chance at a misconception that gets them wrongly executed. I think the notion that Town don’t care to get executed and Scum always work towards survival is wrong. Scum bus all the time as a strategy. Town know their alignment and some care deeply about not being mis-executed. I know I do. It’s a point of pride, actually.

Yeah Lukewarm’s push could be coming from Town, sure. I am trying to figure out what’s going on and sometimes you have to put ideas out there and see what people think.

[Andresvmb]

Meh I need to UNVOTE: . I don’t really SR Italiano to be totally honest.

So what was that? A reaction test or something?

I don’t do reaction tests if I’m being transparent. I might conceal information to solidify a thought, or try and catch someone in a lie, but I don’t recall the last time I purposefully argued for something I didn’t believe in just to make a point or coax some information out of someone. It’s not what I typically do. I’m just not effective that way.

[Andresvmb]

So, incase anyone was interested where I am at, I am still leaning towards Kyouko for a vote today because it would give me more info on whether that really was a scum partner save from Gamma, or if Gamma really is town.

This I find Scum does all the time. What I call “Executions for information” type arguments are so common around here for some reason. Oh so if Kyouko flips Town that tells you what about Gamma exactly? That they were defending Town and could be White Knighting? Because that’s an option you haven’t explicitly stated but could be occurring. If you want to argue Kyouko is Scum, I think that should be the focus. If Kyouko flips Scum (and they could be!), then you move onto the next argument. Or you can separately argue Gamma is Scum. But the way this is being presented pings me hard. I want to execute a player to figure out a different player’s alignment? I’m calling bullshit.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: JohnnyFarrat

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar*

[Andresvmb]

What I call “Executions for information” type arguments are so common around here for some reason.

I don't like these arguments but from experience it's a pretty even spread of town giving bad reasoning/scum giving excuses to eliminate

Ask them what information you'll be getting before or after the elimination and they almost never can bring forth anything comprehensible

Really? Oy. So far, I’ve mostly seen Scum do it. But you’re right, Town do it too. If I’m not wrong, Gamma fell prey to this exact same argument literally the last finished game we had hahaha so fair enough.

[Andresvmb]

What I call “Executions for information” type arguments are so common around here for some reason.

I don't like these arguments but from experience it's a pretty even spread of town giving bad reasoning/scum giving excuses to eliminate

Ask them what information you'll be getting before or after the elimination and they almost never can bring forth anything comprehensible

Really? Oy. So far, I’ve mostly seen Scum do it. But you’re right, Town do it too. If I’m not wrong, Gamma fell prey to this exact same argument literally the last finished game we had hahaha so fair enough.

Actually I went back, and no it wasn’t Gamma at all. But one interesting thing I did end up doing is reading most of their ISO in a different game we played together. There was a lot of fire behind Gamma’s posts, and a lot of excellent points. Let me re-read them here, see how I feel.

[Andresvmb]

I think Gamma is Town. I see some of that some style posting I’ve seen before, some contrasting to play they’ve observed in the past, and some good observations. Don’t SR it at present.

[Andresvmb]

Hi Andre

You don’t have any thoughts on my vote on you? Just saying hi? Haha

[Andresvmb]

How interesting. UC voyager reminds me of unwnd and he's posted what like 3 posts?

I haven’t played with UCV in quite a while but he never struck me as the incisive mind type

This for example. Bringing up your prior experience with a player to form a read I thought was Town positive. I saw you do the same thing here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12484340.

[Andresvmb]

at least I have never met someone who could trick me once I got their meta nailed down >.<

Not to be rude, but I do feel like you've at least had false starts in this regard, times you thought you had it figured out but found your body of work to be off. As such, I'd like some examples of who you've managed to figure out over time.

Same here. And I have seen the same thing your pointing too. So I thought this was a good observation. And asking for someone to refine a view point I thought was Town positive.

[Andresvmb]

^you’re* pointing to*.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know my summary came all convoluted but I wanted to make the point that you’ve given me good vibes. I guess you could summarize it that way.

[Andresvmb]

^@Gamma

[Andresvmb]

@Dunn, I believe you have a vote in RVS, an Unvote, some consensus reads, and not much else. Is there anyone you would like to push right now?

[Andresvmb]

No that’s silly of course they do. Particularly if they think claiming would be extremely detrimental to Town.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve also seen it done out of spite.

[Andresvmb]

Also I think RLotus is approaching obvious levels of Town. Can we move away please?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: rlotus
This play around claiming reminds me of someone else in another game. They were scum and pulled the same dodgy behavior, practically down to the letter.
FYI if this falls through I’d suggest we vote out Max, given he and UCV both have remained the least contributory slots looking at the activity overview, and UCV has at least posted stuff I legitimately felt good about.

Wait, what the hell is this post? Someone else did it, and so RLotus must be Scum? Gamma, c’mon now. Why you shattering my read of you so quickly?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

There’s some shady crap going on here and I don’t think it’s on the part of RLotus.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not. Claiming that there’s a Cop Enabler that they’re aware of after the Cop is flipped seems reasonable to me. The hammer wasn’t, but I also don’t like the single handed focus here on them when the push onto RLotus was dreadful and we should have backed off.

[Andresvmb]

Gamma seemed to be baiting Noraa and I’m not sure why no one is talking about that.

[Andresvmb]

Andre, did you know? About the role I mean?

Are you asking me if I knew RLotus was Cop / Jailkeeper? No, I could just tell they were obvious Town and had good reason not to want to claim prematurely. It’s kind of concerning I’m the only one who saw that. I think the Scum quickly picked up RLotus was a PR and railroaded them there.

[Andresvmb]

Lukewarm dying was not an expected result.
im assuming our most powerful pr is dead so we should vote with caution from now on ig :/

And Lukewarm was clearly a smart player. That’s why they were NK’ed.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Gamma

[Andresvmb]

Also Italiano is obvTown.

[Andresvmb]

I legitimately believed RLotus was playing similar to Vaxkiller in A Little Boonie Told Me It was up to Rlotus to prove me wrong through his actions, and he failed in that regard.

I think this is a blatantly Scummy post. RLotus did show they were Town. Which is why I wanted folks to move away. It’s what makes Noraa’s “case” against me so... bad. But I’ll get to that in a second.

You misread RLotus, and now you get to bash them saying they failed to demonstrate they were Town because they’re not here to defend themselves. But this is a Scummy mindset. You’re deflecting blame onto the dead player instead of truly owning your bad mistake. And it is bad.

Noraa basically thinks that I picked up that RLotus was a PR, and decided I should try and keep them alive without forcing a claim because... why exactly? But nah, they’re focused on my AtE and some other mostly irrelevant posts. And have ignored all of my more meaningful posts or my progression on RLotus for example.

[Andresvmb]

I wish Pooky was here

And honestly I find this actually insulting. Oh this Town is so bad I’m clamoring for a player not currently in the game.

I’ll stop commenting on this because I don’t want this to turn into a shit fight and I know how that can go. But I just don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: ssbm_kyouko
I don’t like the rolefishing that went down just now.

This also doesn’t make sense. Kyouko is trying to understand a Claim that was given out partially and voluntarily. How is this role fishing?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

Well, I guess I’m going to have to go and re-read this game now.

[Andresvmb]

Well that’s a hard guilty so we execute it.

VOTE: FMFT

[Andresvmb]

And yeah, I do think Gamma is just Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I’m VLA until tonight.

[Andresvmb]

Gamma is, I think, Town actually. Yeah I was annoyed at the RLotus execution. But they have a really solid point about the coordination that probably would have gone into FMFT’s Claim. The idea that they went rogue doesn’t track at all.

Also, Johnny is probably Scum. Just saying.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: VFP

[Andresvmb]

Wait haha did I just hammer? I didn’t mean to. Oops.

[Andresvmb]

iirc andres was pretty scummy in Etymologies

I’ve been Town every game on this site. You can’t say this with a straight face haha you can say that I’ve been wrong, but Scummy? Maybe low effort at times.

[Andresvmb]

VFP looks calm but underneath he is melting and fearing for his life... when he's hanged we will just have one scum left.

Cool my other SR was true.

VOTE: VFP this is still most likely scum.

oh my god. please. if you're town, stop doing this otherwise we will lim you tomorrow and you will have no one to blame but yourself. if you're town, scum isn't even gonna have to push you to the chopping block. you literally got onto the chopping block yourself and gave the executioner a blade.

Oml. I sincerely hope max the fox is scum because he's definitely dying tomorrow if he keeps this up.
I also just think gamma is scum now bc of the hesitancy despite gamma being pretty obvious scum?


I keep having paranoia on people like ssb and VFP. But with these people that look terribly obvscum, I dont even know what to do anymore.

Btw if VFP flips Scum, put Noraa in any POE you form permanently.

[Andresvmb]

Nah kill Noraa if VFP flips Scum. That’s a bunch of theater they just did.

[Andresvmb]

towny arrogance

I dont think thats AI at this point. its seems like a personality trait ....

Maybe you’re just bad. Has that ever occurred to you? Haha

[Andresvmb]

Okay so I’m intrigued by this coming flip, but {Italiano, Noraa, Johnny} need to be considered closely. Particularly if VFP flips Town. I don’t know that I trust MaxTheFox but I’ll have to read the slot again.

Gamma is Town. Sorry Gamma, I did have you right at first I think.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll take some time and read the game over the weekend once the flip occurs. I think this game has been pushed wide open.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be here later today.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no chance in hell I’m going to let you get me mis-executed this game. I have been absent and I apologize for that but work has just been brutal.

[Andresvmb]

And you know I’m aggressive by nature. You’re acting like you’ve never seen me play before and Scum have literally pushed me in other games claiming I appear aggressive for no reason.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway let me catch up.

And yes, my hammer was accidental. I lost track of the vote count. I am not sure I would have voted anywhere else to be honest and VFP’s posting did seem Scummy to me, but I would have been slightly more careful I think if I had known exactly where the votes where.

[Andresvmb]

And you know I’m aggressive by nature. You’re acting like you’ve never seen me play before and Scum have literally pushed me in other games claiming I appear aggressive for no reason.

it feels different this game than in say Etymologies though
also, how nice of you to show up as soon as I voted you.

I just finished working. I had not had the opportunity to log on at all today. It has nothing to do with your vote. If I had wanted to stem any negative momentum since that’s what you’re implying, I would have responded to that post asking where I am.

[Andresvmb]

I’m here, and I’m re-reading the whole game. I think it’s time I try a bit harder.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Gamma

[Andresvmb]

There is at least one scum between Gamma and STD.

go on

bus your partner

Kyouko is more likely Scum than Max. In fact, I think Max is Town.

[Andresvmb]

My POE right now is {Johnny, Kyouko, Gamma}. I think unless Italiano and STD are both Scum together, then they’re both Town.

[Andresvmb]

The claims by FMFT and Gamma put us in a situation where neither should be the elim toDay imo. It seems clear to me that if FMFT is town that the second informed player was not able to activate last Night. Give it some time and it will become apparent whether FMFT is town or scum. That info will also help with Gamma's alignment, unfortunately it won't tell us his alignment outright though (unless we flip a rolecop).

And everything Luke said was probably accurate, which is why they were NK’ed haha

[Andresvmb]

Fmft claim makes me not want to lim them or Gamma

And yeah Johnny trusted the terrible idea so here we are.

[Andresvmb]

-Despite a member of the mafia knowing his role he didn't die, even though there weren't any other pr targets

And this should sink Gamma. We need to execute there.

[Andresvmb]

Max/gamma/FMFT

Though Noraa did die after putting out this solve.

Okay I mean I think I TR {Italiano, STD} always here. It’s a close call between Max and Johnny. I think there’s a multitude of reasons to doubt Johnny. How is Gamma not just Scum though? So FMFT was Mafia Goon yes? So they did not have any initial knowledge of Gamma’s role. There’s only 2 ways in which they would have acquired that knowledge - either by knowing Gamma’s Role PM from being Scum together, or by the presence of a Role Cop amongst the Scum. If there’s a Role Cop, why in the world target Gamma? I would have targeted Italiano N1. Look at Italiano’s solve in 351. This is why I think they’re either Scum with STD or just Town. They’re entire Town pool at that stage is of flipped Town, except for STD. How is that not remarkable?

[Andresvmb]

They’re entire Town pool

Their entire Town pool*

[Andresvmb]

wrong
Just because they outed my role D2 doesn’t mean they knew it coming into N1. Remember FMFT claimed activated informed. That means whatever it was that gave scum my role info, it was very likely something that happened N1.

Activated Informed sounds like made up bullshit to escape an execution.

[Andresvmb]

wrong
Just because they outed my role D2 doesn’t mean they knew it coming into N1. Remember FMFT claimed activated informed. That means whatever it was that gave scum my role info, it was very likely something that happened N1.

Activated Informed sounds like made up bullshit to escape an execution.

But if you’re claiming that they got the info N1 through some other means, the only way is Role Cop. The claim was extremely precise, and you agreed with it.

[Andresvmb]

Gamma not going to lie - re-reading D1 makes your play look horrible, and now you’re pushing me. You should almost always get flipped here just out of caution.

[Andresvmb]

Think I'll have to reread d2 cuz I feel convinced Gamma's being framed and I'm just confbiasing at this point. I feel like FMFT was already screwed after that hammer and scum sacced him in an attempt to draw out PRs.

This is such horrible revisionist history btw hahaha the Scum just offered FMFT up? That’s your idea? Because the way I see it, you wanted to completely avoid them based on their claim of being Informed. Just doesn’t track at all.

[Andresvmb]

I think VFP knew Gamma's role before it was revealed yesterDay and jumped the gun on voting him during FMFT'S partial claim.

This post in general is openly Scummy. I’m starting to think that Kyouko should get executed every time this game. We should perhaps be somewhat cautious if Gamma is Town but I can’t imagine a world with them as Town.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah I’m pretty sure Gamma is a reasonable vote. I also think that Johnny and Fox need to be a bit more obvious about what they would like to see happen here.

[Andresvmb]

Honestly I feel like my play here has been complete shit, outside of correctly reading RLotus and perhaps attacking Gamma early. I sailed to see FMFT as Scum quickly enough, I defended Kyouko and fought Italiano (though I reversed that eventually, thankfully), and I carelessly hammered VFP. At the very least I stopped pushing Noraa but even my read there was bad. I did turn around and start TR’ing there I think that became obvious and I was mostly annoyed at getting SR’ed but I’m also not going to defend my play too much - I’ve just been too absent. Hopefully I can change that moving forward.

[Andresvmb]

I was at some point tinfoiling a Team with Italiano in it (given their apparent accuracy, how are they still alive?), but Lukewarm was possibly a more direct threat to Scum, Dunn was a PR execution, and Noraa was just clearly Town, and started pushing Gamma. I really can’t imagine Gamma should live beyond today in this game. I think if Gamma survives, we’re collectively game throwing. It’s too risky to do anything else.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be around if anyone wants to talk. I have another game to catch up on.

[Andresvmb]

They don’t have a guilty because I’m Town and they’re full of shit.

[Andresvmb]

This is like desperation level bad now.

[Andresvmb]

I hardclaim Vanilla Town. They can’t have any guilty of any sort, because I don’t have a Night Action and I’m Town.

Your desperate attempt at saving your buddy is not going to work.

[Andresvmb]

Here’s a question for you. How the FUCK does activated informed get anyone out of an execution?

And this is just blatant btw in terms of how horrific it is.

CLEARLY people unvoted FMFT once they partly claimed Gamma’s role. Anybody that goes back and reads can see it. So I don’t have to theorize about it - anyone that pays any attention can clearly see that it had the effect of reducing pressure on FMFT. Had it not been for Dunn’s guilty, chances are they avoid execution there. So this is just obviously bad.

[Andresvmb]

So if Kyouko wants to come in and explain their guilty, please, I’m waiting. Because if the thought is that we had a Cop, a Lazy Backup Cop, and some other sort of Investigative that could directly figure out my alignment, then they’re full of shit.

[Andresvmb]

i'm still leaning gamma but i want to at least hear from kyouko

Kyouko is outted Scum btw. They’re trying to not directly lose the game. This is not a tactic I would have endorsed, but here we are.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

Wait let’s back it up.

Why would Scum do this?

[Andresvmb]

If Gamma is Scum, Kyouko doesn’t have to come out with a guilty on me now. It locks them into a straight loss once I flip Town. That doesn’t make sense.

At the same time, maybe they think Gamma can survive at F3?

[Andresvmb]

If Gamma is Town though by some miracle, then what’ll happen is either Gamma or I get executed, and if we’re both Town, in almost every situation the other person gets executed.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Kyouko

[Andresvmb]

I still very much think Gamma is Scum. But Kyouko has given me certainty that they’re Scum.

Ask yourself the question - how likely is it that we have a Cop Enabler, a Cop / Jailkeeper, a Lazy Backup Cop, AND some other Investigative, and the Scum actively chose to avoid shooting the Enabler before shooting at the Cop with a guilty?

[Andresvmb]

The choice today has to be between Kyouko and I. That way, we definitely don’t run into consecutive mis-executions by some miracle and immediately lose. If we actually execute correctly and execute Kyouko, then I’ll get NK’ed and you can all execute Gamma without having the game on the line. If that’s wrong, then you can make a decision in ELo.

[Andresvmb]

But if you really think the guilty from Kyouko comes out the way that it has, given the roles that have been exposed in the game, then I don’t know what to say.

[Andresvmb]

This is exciting - I’m actually not going to Endgame here since I’ll be an IC. So my slot gets resolved today every time.

[Andresvmb]

If I get executed so be it. I’ve already said my play hasn’t been good, so I don’t expect people to read my ISO and immediately think I’m Town. But think just how dumb I would have to be to realize we’re about to execute a PR and instead of staying silent or on the sidelines I try and stop it.

[Andresvmb]

^that’s D1.

[Andresvmb]

If anybody wants to ask me anything I’m an open book.

[Andresvmb]

Okay so I’m guessing Kyouko is going to claim Follower yeah?

[Andresvmb]

So they are going to say that they checked me and I performed a killing action, and that this is what their guilty is based on. That’s my guess. Which would correspond with Gamma’s claim that they’re a Follower Enabler also.

[Andresvmb]

So it is entirely within the realm of possibility that Gamma is Town, and that this is a ploy to win the game.

[Andresvmb]

@STD we need to execute Kyouko today. It’s going to feel wrong, because you’re executing the player claiming to have a guilty and not the check itself, but if I’m right, this could cost us the game.

[Andresvmb]

@Italiano @Max you should really speak now.

[Andresvmb]

But if Gamma is Town, why not just execute there? This is either a terrible play, or some really high level thinking. I mean Kyouko could have just hammered Gamma, and then turned around and blamed whoever. Me, ItalianoVD, anyone.

[Andresvmb]

Okay so I’m back at {Gamma, Kyouko}, and that’s a Hail Mary to get Gamma to F3 and maybe a bad vote for someone. In any case, my vote is locked. Do what you want.

[Andresvmb]

Needless to say, I will absolutely hammer Gamma. I know Kyouko is a safer bet, but I’ll do what I have to.

[Andresvmb]

So not even Follower. So it makes no mechanical sense, and it’s a straight up Scum claim. Can we just execute it?

[Andresvmb]

Hahaha yeah, N3 Cop. C’mon now. Be more original.

[Andresvmb]

Frankly out of all of the things that you could have come up with, this one is pretty bad. It’s not even imaginative.

[Andresvmb]

@STD why are you entertaining this? It’s an OBVIOUS misplay.

[Andresvmb]

Desperation.

[Andresvmb]

Do you really think Town waits that long to make a Claim about my alignment at such an important stage? C’mon you know it’s nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

I can understand that. But I think this is one of the more obvious Scum misplays I have ever seen. It’s a guilty with another player at E-1, with a spurious rationale behind it, deflecting away from a clear Scummy slot. This one is not close.

[Andresvmb]

Why not come in with that when I’m absent, prior to my reread and conclusions, when there’s clear pressure on Gamma still at a key moment?

[Andresvmb]

I really want the rest of the player list to say something. It’s fine that we’ve all sort of neglected this game somewhat but c’mon where is everyone?

[Andresvmb]

Even Night UB

Last Night was N3.

[Andresvmb]

So you’re saying the death Even Night was the Lazy Cop? And that’s how you acquired your Role? This is total garbage.

[Andresvmb]

I mean haha okay I’ll shut up now.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah sure my hammer comes from Scum

[Andresvmb]

Voting Gamma here no longer makes sense. We need to execute Kyouko.

[Andresvmb]

Like use your brain and ignore the mechanical claims for a minute. Why would I NK Lukewarm? Or Noraa? I wouldn’t...

This is a desperate attempt to stop an execution that seemed inevitable in a bad position with a mechanical argument that I can’t directly disprove. How convenient that at that stage, Kyouko comes out with a guilty.

[Andresvmb]

You’re Scum your theories are irrelevant.

[Andresvmb]

I mean yeah I killed my only SR to make myself look stupid. Genius theory right there.

[Andresvmb]

@STD I need you to vote Kyouko.

[Andresvmb]

Do you think you can do that?

[Andresvmb]

And just so we’re clear - this 1v1 has to get resolved this game regardless. If you think they’re Scum, we might as well make the correct decision now and put ourselves in a good position.

[Andresvmb]

@Italiano the same goes for you. You’ve read me correctly here - just trust that there’s something obviously wrong with Kyouko’s claim and vote there.

[Andresvmb]

Where is Johnny?

[Andresvmb]

That’s terrible logic but okay.

[Andresvmb]

Nope. You’re Scum. You always die here.

[Andresvmb]

Let’s try and avoid talking to each other I mean you have a fake guilty on me it’s not like we’re going to agree on anything.

[Andresvmb]

No need to make this super unpleasant either.

[Andresvmb]

@STD @Italiano I want stances from you. Johnny is VLA and I don’t know when they’ll come back.

[Andresvmb]

You’ll get Gamma. Just do it tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

Disclaimer - I wrote this following the conclusion of D4, without looking at the NK. I’m just going to post it unfiltered, because I don’t have time to modify it and I think Town is going to make a rash decision here. Anyway, here it is:

I am still incredibly pissed off at Kyouko for that nonsense. Claiming a fake guilty at any stage of the game is an incredibly dangerous thing to do. And Kyouko clearly does not have the accuracy nor the capacity to do it in a way that’s convincing. They were executed without me even getting close to an execution when I would have typically been quickly run up by Scum. That’s how bad the play was, and how unconvincing Kyouko has been all game.

But I have to believe that the Scum made a strategic decision to stay as far away from that shitshow as possible. I’m not going to mince words - that was particularly painful to see, and it is one of the worst Town moves I have ever seen, if not the outright worst. If I thought Kyouko was ill-intentioned, I would have replaced out. I don’t. But what they did was boneheaded, stupid, and frustrating. I’m frankly really upset to have been the target of a fake guilty in such fashion. I already said my play has not been great, and I meant that. But I don’t think I would make such an admission as Scum when basically my play has gotten me through alive and the my Team is approaching a victory.

I had some harsher words for Kyouko that I directed to the Mod following the flip, but in a way I’m also glad Kyouko was executed and not me. Had I been executed, the game would actually be a definitive loss, because a fake guilty would be instantly punished by Town with a vote in ELo.

I was going to stop trying, because I got so angry. But at that moment, I decided instead to pour my energy into giving the game one last read. Because I’m not a quitter.

I’m also going to say in advance. Anybody who SRs me for pushing against a player claiming a fake guilty on me (which you now KNOW is the case since they flipped VT) is bad. Not necessarily Scum, but bad. I expressed reservations about Kyouko of course, but I don’t regret my actions in the least bit (same as Kyouko was not apologetic about their push onto VFP).

[Andresvmb]

Here’s me analysis:

Spoiler:

I think the early game points to Johnny as Town. They had an early vote for UC Voyager that probably doesn’t come from a Partner. UC Voyager was trying to play along with a joke Johnny made, and Johnny

SR them for it, and put a vote down

. I find that highly unusual for Partners. Just because Johnny ate up the Informed Claim from FMFT does not undo that. And I should have been more careful.

I am also less beholden to Lukewarm’s reads at this stage, since they so grossly misread Kyouko (248). I feel somewhat better about my read there early.

251 - this is a post I’ve thought a lot about. I doubt UC Voyager expresses SRs of their two Partners at that stage of the game. I don’t see the need for it. But notice that they TR STD, and SR Italiano and Gamma. All of these players are still alive.

As a side note, there’s clearly a lot of seemingly coordinated play between Italiano and STD this game. That much is obvious. And Kyouko and Gamma both pushed Italiano, and now we know that Kyouko is Town, so Gamma looks somewhat better for it. As a theory point, I know Scum do attach themselves to Town to make it harder to nail their true Partners. STD could be doing this. In fact, this cost me in a different game (making the wrong conclusion about two slots being Scum together).

I would also like to say that, Noraa deserves credit for 258. We should have listened.

273 - In hindsight, this looks suspicious. Is this Scum Italiano digging their heels against Town Kyouko?

334 - This seems like more evidence that Johnny is solid, and probably Town.

342, 345 are easy posts to make. Yeah of course you’re shading Johnny when you probably know I’m Town (my content up to then wasn’t any good outside of just clashing with Noraa). And then tying yourself up with me in that way is clever. If you flip Scum, you probably somewhat sink me. If I flip Town, you look good.

430 - I need to start listening to my own early reads sometimes. If there’s one thing I hate about my own play is that I can be so indecisive. I was fucking right, and I didn’t stick to it. Why? Because I need to get better as a player.

482 - there’s something deeply fascinating about this post. Italiano is not in the list at all. They had a tremendous amount of content, and had engaged in a few spats with players already. Yet, no read there. How is that believable?

—

There’s something that must be said though - ItalianoVD seems a bit of a try hard this game. They’ve been off about a few things, but they certainly put out a lot of content and didn’t avoid any controversies. I need to be careful not to jump to any quick and silly conclusions.

At the same time, 522 is a fascinating vote. RLotus is getting wagoned pretty hard at this point, and STD has jumped on the RLotus wagon that formed with mostly Town on it (Noraa and Kyouko rounded out the first 4 voters, I know I’m Town, and I have a good feeling for Johnny), and they ignore that wagon and jump on Johnny. The least charitable interpretation is that Italiano is actively trying to avoid a Town execution that is about to happen and probably doesn’t need them to go through. The alternative is that they’re pushing a slot they truly believe in, and are correctly avoiding Town. Probably the latter, frankly.

547 - Is this posturing? VFP has expressed intent on RLotus at this stage. Yet Fox comes out with outrage as to why RLotus is getting wagoned. But the reasoning is somewhat off. RLotus didn’t seem confused to me, just somewhat unsure of who to SR. There’s a difference.

571 - And then Italiano does the same thing. They also didn’t like the RLotus wagon, and quoted multiple posts were they had expressed a TR and doubted the reasoning behind the SR.

597 - I really don’t know what to make of this. Is this distancing? Really hard to say. My guess is no, but who knows.

688 - This, though, is just Scummy. This from Fox gives me such a bad feeling. The wagon could potentially lose momentum, I come out to say that RLotus is approaching obvious levels of Town, and Fox attacks RLotus at a key moment. And this after posturing around at the potential flip. You know what changed? Before, Town clearly seemed eager to eliminate RLotus. However, the voices to avoid RLotus began to grow a bit louder. So then Fox posts this. Incredible.

—

If Kyouko’s instinct was correct in that FMFT was a Scum “sacrifice”, the votes in 730 and 731 could be seen as suspicious ones. Fox’s vote come after there’s already substantial pressure from Dunn, VFP, and Italiano, so it’s the most likely one to be a bus.

And what’s up with 747? Italiano had literally JUST voted FMFT, but then questions how some of those posts are too brazen for Scum? It doesn’t make sense.

767 - Out of all of the votes for FMFT, this feels less likely to be a bus. There’s no hard SR, just confusion and a vote. It’s not even explained in much detail. But it’s also

late

. And that’s revealing in a different way.

779 - This doesn’t read to me like a Scummy post. It’s not directly attacking me for my read, it’s just stating that their read was genuine. Should I be more positive on Gamma?

796 - By now, a few players have expressed that they want FMFT to stay alive. And out of nowhere, Max switches onto Town. It’s almost as if the plan was to distance hard, even bus, but when it’s possible that maybe the Scum don’t have to execute one of their own, they decide to move away.

863 - And this is a terrible post from Fox. VFP’s conviction that Fox was Scum looks well founded at this stage.

—

Gamma having Kyouko as confirmed Town at the beginning of D3 is overly strong. Could it be Town and correct? Yes. And in a way, clearing Kyouko there makes little sense from Scum. STD begins here by attacking that conclusion, and strongly attacks Gamma in 929. I don’t think this is SvS, ever.

996 - Like in my head, I had moved away from a SR of Italiano. But then, this post makes me question myself a bit. STD is hammering on Gamma right, arguing that FMFT went rogue and decided to push a claim out there that Gamma didn’t consent to, putting them in a bad spot. It’s absolutely possible, I’ll admit. But Gamma’s responses and emotional content do seem of Town that is trying really hard not to get executed (which is what Noraa saw as well). And then Italiano comes with this post and backs up STD’s push. Sigh.

1009 - This solve is clearly horrific from Gamma though.

1023 - If Max is indeed Scum, this feels like a key post. Would they so openly defend their Partner? I don’t know.

1068 - This makes it seem like Max and Gamma are Partners. Noraa clearly has developed a strong SR of Max. And Gamma jumps in to defend there, arguing that the logic is bad. And VFP by now also clearly thinks Gamma is overwhelmed as Scum. We now know that both Noraa and VFP are Town.

1082 - This is objectively a bad post. Accusing Noraa of Scum motivation there just seems desperate.

1144 - At this stage, does Scum fight Kyouko’s case on VFP? Italiano arguing that they don’t believe it is not what I would expect Scum to do in this particular circumstance. And they’re sticking to their reads. This is definitely Town positive.

—

1172 - This

could

be distancing. I certainly wouldn’t dismiss it.

Maybe it is STD actually? 1207 through 1211 is a very interesting sequence. I don’t know that Gamma attacks Max as aggressively as they do here if they are Partners. That’s mainly because they’re in a strong position generally if they’re both Scum, and this is unnecessary.

[Andresvmb]

Honestly, I have wildly fluctuated between wanting to kill Italiano, Gamma, STD, and Max.

Max is my strongest SR. The slot is the one that makes the most sense as Scum, and should get executed.

I want to believe Italiano is Town, and has had a rough go of it. And I think the last Scum is between {Gamma, STD}. That last one is hard. If Max is indeed Scum, there’s a key sequence that probably means that they’re not Partnered with Gamma. So it’s probably STD.

[Andresvmb]

I think Luke died because he was your only SR D1 so you killed him so you could start fresh the next day with the town cred from pulling off of RLotus prior to his execution. Noraa probably died because she suspected you. Third scum is likely not under heavy suspicion so the NKs were focused on getting you through alive. That's my theory at least, not that it matters why they died

I will say this NKA sounds valid though

Stop being bad I’m not Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I’m going to wait a little bit to put a vote down, but I do have some freedom in that I haven’t been up to my best this game, but I also didn’t directly try and tank the Town’s chances with a ridiculous mechanical move.

[Andresvmb]

If I thought Kyouko was ill-intentioned

the fuck?
what do you mean by ill-intentioned, because I feel like the only "ill intention" for something like that would be if kyouko were scum, and you couldn't know that.

I

don’t think

it was purposefully done to try and attack me directly. I thought it was just done out of conviction and was stupid. That’s what I’m saying.

[Andresvmb]

They were executed without me even getting close to an execution when I would have typically been quickly run up by Scum. That’s how bad the play was, and how unconvincing Kyouko has been all game.

this also sounds idiotic and reeks of scum trying to force an explanation for why they weren't executed that doesn't rely on that fact

Nah you’re alive and I’m here because the Scum expect you to vote me incorrectly. A Town player claimed a guilty on me. That’s how sure they were I was Scum.

[Andresvmb]

They were executed without me even getting close to an execution when I would have typically been quickly run up by Scum. That’s how bad the play was, and how unconvincing Kyouko has been all game.

this also sounds idiotic and reeks of scum trying to force an explanation for why they weren't executed that doesn't rely on that fact

Nah you’re alive and I’m here because the Scum expect you to vote me incorrectly. A Town player claimed a guilty on me. That’s how sure they were I was Scum.

But they were wrong. And in my shoes, you would be pissed off too.

[Andresvmb]

Okay awesome good for you. Even then, I was the one that was the subject of the stupid move, not you. So maybe quit your whining and think.

[Andresvmb]

And just so we’re clear. I would have hard tunneled you already if I was Scum. I don’t have to even post much here if I’m Scum. Because the die has been cast for the most part. I would simply vote you and try and convince someone anyone that you’re still correct.

[Andresvmb]

I was Town then genius.

[Andresvmb]

I haven’t been Scum in a single game on this forum.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not even pushing you as Scum anymore. Just think about how stupid I have to be to leave you alive when I know you’re almost convinced that I’m Scum only to actually say that I think you’re Town.

[Andresvmb]

It doesn’t matter. Do whatever you want. I put my solve out there. Max and STD came in sounding all confused and angry without even putting forth a solve but you think I’m performative.

[Andresvmb]

you weren't even IN newbie 2041 iirc
I'm saying your play resembles on of MY previous scum moments

I thought you were pointing to the only Newbie game I’ve played were I was Endgamed.

[Andresvmb]

And why the fuck does it matter what YOU did as Scum?

[Andresvmb]

It’s totally irrelevant.

Again, do whatever you want. My thoughts are all out there.

[Andresvmb]

Also, that’s it as far as content goes from me. I will be around to answer direct questions that aren’t accusatory and beyond that expect me to vote late this day phase.

[Andresvmb]

I will probably review Fenrir given he's the only person alive I haven't read in isolation at all at this point
but unless something major happens my opinion will probably remain mostly static

Then vote me.

[Andresvmb]

Stop wasting my fucking time and end the game already.

[Andresvmb]

If you’re just going to stay static and not think as to why you’re alive instead of Johnny who TR me and didn’t even post basically the last day then there’s no saving us.

[Andresvmb]

And before you say oh but Noraa SR you so of course you NK’ed there - Noraa didn’t even have me as part of their final solve and was turning against you / Max. You had more reason to make that NK than I did.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think you’re Scum we’re past that.

[Andresvmb]

Doesn’t that imply that you think I’m Town? It’s not a throw if it’s correct.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: MaxTheFox

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

Maybe still a bit early.

I want to see some firmer intent from players here and stop the posturing.

And btw, most everything being said on this game day should be ignored. It’s more about what’s already happened. If Max flips Scum for example, don’t think that because STD pushed them hard today or something that it matters all of a sudden. It doesn’t. Everybody seems to be doing it so I’m guessing there’s some positioning for F3 going on.

[Andresvmb]

Literally everybody is calling Max Scum and they’re not even that much offended by it, just leaving the thread after making a clearly bad argument against Gamma. I don’t want to rush it but honestly outside of ELo my vote would already be there.

[Andresvmb]

That’s a vote that’s been sitting for 2 hours.

[Andresvmb]

Everyone sounds like scum at this point.

You have an actual choice now between 2 though. Wait for everyone else to check in and you don’t even have to do too much of an effort.

[Andresvmb]

I’m quite patient - where is STD?

[Andresvmb]

@Italiano before you put a vote down I want to have a conversation with you.

[Andresvmb]

I just want to see where your head is at.

[Andresvmb]

It’s hard to trust anyone at this stage, but my feel for the situation is that Max pulled the trigger on a vote because they quickly realized that they were running out of options. I think they always lose a 1v1 against me and they also already said I was Town. Trying to fabricate a case against me at that stage probably looks Scummy as all hell. So instead, they went for the vote they hoped a Town player would make - Gamma.

[Andresvmb]

I also in my head predicted what the NK would be if the Team was STD / Max. And it was always Johnny. If the Team contains Gamma, I think you try and stem the bleeding by NK’ing one of the players most likely to vote against you. One of STD or me, though probably STD since I was perhaps louder about it and would look worse. Italiano you always keep me alive here as Scum, but I don’t see you NK’ing Johnny but you are probably in a good spot and have a lot of options.

[Andresvmb]

I think STD has attached themselves to you more than the other way around (particularly since you TR there early), and I think that was an intentional Scum tactic. But maybe your insight into how you see that would help.

[Andresvmb]

If you think I’m Town, I think you should trust me when I say that I think Gamma is Town.

[Andresvmb]

There’s emotional content in there of the sort a Scum Gamma would probably never have produced. And not just today - Noraa highlighted it on a previous day.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE GAMMA FAST BEFORE SCUM HAMMERS ME!

And this - c’mon now. This is just Scum hahaha

[Andresvmb]

Oh wait Andres unvoted me, I forgot. Still, vote Gamma.

This is also a bit of a perspective slip. If you think about it, if my vote was still on, then what is Fox doing voting for Gamma? I would be guaranteed Scum to them since everyone else came onto the thread already.

[Andresvmb]

So unless they are theorizing that the Team is strictly Gamma / Me (and they’ve already voiced that they don’t think this is the case), then this is nonsensical and just theater.

[Andresvmb]

And btw, I don’t think anybody can argue with a straight face that Gamma and I are a Team. Just as much as it is now confirmed that you and I Italiano are not a Team.

[Andresvmb]

I think STD has attached themselves to you more than the other way around (particularly since you TR there early), and I think that was an intentional Scum tactic. But maybe your insight into how you see that would help.

We kinda mindmelded on Free Money because I genuinely thought he (fm) was kinda a loose cannon and I thought his play around Dunnstral was better then Gamma. Do you think him following you onto kyouko was scumminded?

I actually have a different theory about it.

STD was clearly resisting (though not as openly) voting between Kyouko and Me. They clearly wanted Gamma first. The reason for that is because then a victory is guaranteed from a Scum!STD perspective - Gamma flips Town say, and then all you have to do is NK Johnny and wait for one of Kyouko or Me to put a vote down for the other and the Town loses. And you know it’ll happen because they had a “guilty” on me.