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[Dragon of the West]

Okay, reading everything to catch up now. I'm at the end of page 5 and I'm not understanding the evolution of peta's argument. It started with scum reading Dwlee99 for being too pedantic when it just seemed like he was disagreeing with DGB's strategy. And now if anything peta's posts are just trying to twist anything they can to put the fire on other people over nothing. I really haven't played much mafia and I'm not familiar with petapan as a player, but their playstyle this game seems overly aggro.

Unofficial vote on peta here. gonna continue reading

[Dragon of the West]

At the end of page 9 now. Anya has a few posts but hasn't actually said anything meaningful or shared thoughts on the discussion so far. just jumps in to make offhand comments

[Dragon of the West]

Of course I say Anya hasn't said much of substance at the end of Page 9 and they have multiple real comments on the next page. Can someone explain the meaning/context of "pt" to me? Can't find that on the wiki or abbreviation list.

[Dragon of the West]

Okay, thanks. And are those threads usually related to specific PRs or is it possible for vanilla roles to have access to PTs?

[Dragon of the West]

nevermind that i was the first one to engage dwlee and call him scum, my point is way less baking up dgb and ore that the way dwlee chose to engage and turn things into a pedantic argument about how not to play where he could make an "ideal" theoretical point about how "we shouldn't play it like mountainous" that glosses over what dgb is actually trying to say (we should emphasize dayplay and minimize decisions based on mechanical speculation, basic stuff). in the process he steers the conversation toward something non-game-advancing, that is, arguing about "well of course you should consider claims in a normal setup". and when i immediately jump him after that he responds not like someone who has genuine conviction in what he's arguing but cornered scum who doesn't know how to react

This doesn't read like someone who's unhappy at Dwlee for not following DGB's plan. It seems to be more about how it was shut down and the reaction Dwlee given. I'm not saying I agree, but let's not read a story here.
Peta can explain some thought process into this and why Dwlee is scum here.

yes that's about what i was getting at - bogging things down in some boring "correct" argument is how i'd expect scum to approach someone coming out with a wacky plan to start the day - it's an easy point to make and offers basically nothing. i hit him with my vote for it and didn't like the response.

nero of course is dead set on trying to misconstrue that i was arguing that no one should claim at all in accordance with dgb, which is not what i was trying to say and i don't think someone making an honest reading could get that (except T3, but he's a special case)

I can't see how Dwlee disagreeing about strategy can generate such a strong reaction from you that you feel a "correct" argument is bogging things down? Like even if it's slightly pedantic, aren't those the exact discussions that should help town align on a strategy? Especially when someone is suggesting a strategy for the group to follow on one of the first pages of the game. AND you go on to say that you don't necessarily agree with DGB's strategy....then what's your suggestion? ignore making any semblance of a plan rather than determine a path forward and work to make town's plan better? It's weird to not take a stance on DGB's early suggestion, but then scum read someone for openly saying they disagree with it.

[Dragon of the West]

Okay, thanks. And are those threads usually related to specific PRs or is it possible for vanilla roles to have access to PTs?

players in neighborhoods can be PRs or have no other powers - it used to be that neighbors were usually otherwise vanilla but PRs in hoods are more common now

real quick - you've been away from the site for a while, have you played mafia at all in the meantime? do you remember the games you played on this site at all?

\

I haven't played any mafia since I've been away from the site, but I've played deception-type games like Secret Hitler. And I don't remember anything meaningful from the couple games I did play (I think I only played 2). I think I remember getting targeted really early the game I was mafia and played it poorly.

[Dragon of the West]

I can't see how Dwlee disagreeing about strategy can generate such a strong reaction from you that you feel a "correct" argument is bogging things down? Like even if it's slightly pedantic, aren't those the exact discussions that should help town align on a strategy? Especially when someone is suggesting a strategy for the group to follow on one of the first pages of the game. AND you go on to say that you don't necessarily agree with DGB's strategy....then what's your suggestion? ignore making any semblance of a plan rather than determine a path forward and work to make town's plan better? It's weird to not take a stance on DGB's early suggestion, but then scum read someone for openly saying they disagree with it.

sigh. please refer to my question asking about how much mafia you have played because this site has been around a while and the meta for playing most setups is fairly well established: run someone up, ask for a claim, people decide if they believe the claim or not, if they believe it or don't want to kill it that day we move on to a new target. it's not like we need to get together and conference every game for deciding how we're going to play, i'm not sure why you would expect it to be that way? like this is going to be a real uphill battle if i'm gonna have to give you the mafia 101 crash course

the point dgb was making was that recently normal setups have been outright trollish in their design and people have lost town games by making bad assumptions about setup mechanics. "play the game as if it were mountainous is" is obviously an extreme suggestion but at the heart of it favoring dayplay over claims isn't bad. dwlee's retort to that post was pedantic, and i felt trying to drag things into the realm of pure theory scummy

So I understand there's going to be a meta and I'm not suggesting a conference as necessary; but if someone disagrees about DGB's suggestion I don't see the harm in openly disagreeing. Maybe that's because I tend to be a pedantic person myself, I see value in some minutia. But also, isn't DGB suggesting a strategy offhand early on just as derailing and promoting the "conference" you want to avoid? The meta is so established that nothing is worth discussing to you, so why bother

[Dragon of the West]

Okay, thanks. And are those threads usually related to specific PRs or is it possible for vanilla roles to have access to PTs?

players in neighborhoods can be PRs or have no other powers - it used to be that neighbors were usually otherwise vanilla but PRs in hoods are more common now

real quick - you've been away from the site for a while, have you played mafia at all in the meantime? do you remember the games you played on this site at all?

\

I haven't played any mafia since I've been away from the site, but I've played deception-type games like Secret Hitler. And I don't remember anything meaningful from the couple games I did play (I think I only played 2). I think I remember getting targeted really early the game I was mafia and played it poorly.

i asked because you were in a hood in one of your old games, granted i don't necessarily expect you to remember stuff from 5 years ago but was maybe a little concerned you might be playing up the angle of being unfamiliar to get townread, like the newbie card. that's paranoid of me tho, oi think so far you've been all right

Yeah I just didn't remember the neighborhood thing. I don't think I played enough in my first go around for that kind of stuff to really stick.

[Dragon of the West]

Alright, starting to catch up on new posts:

also, sorry for traveling back in time, but i'm just catching up here so i'll be hopping back and forth

Okay, reading everything to catch up now. I'm at the end of page 5 and I'm not understanding the evolution of peta's argument. It started with scum reading Dwlee99 for being too pedantic when it just seemed like he was disagreeing with DGB's strategy. And now if anything peta's posts are just trying to twist anything they can to put the fire on other people over nothing. I really haven't played much mafia and I'm not familiar with petapan as a player, but their playstyle this game seems overly aggro.

Unofficial vote on peta here. gonna continue reading

is aggression scummy to you?

I don't think aggression alone is scummy; I think aggression combined with irrationality and/or it being different from a person's normal gameplay is scummy. And I just don't agree with your rationalization of your scum reads and the points you kept twisting to make claims about Dwlee & Nero. I read it as very "you going on the offensive so someone else is always forced to defend". Like I prefaced in that post, I'm not familiar with you as a player so I'll have to go through some old games of yours to see if going super aggro is town behavior from you; I just haven't had time to go through any of your recent games yet. That's why I made it an unofficial vote. But the aggro + (imo) irrational takes is what made that an initial scum read.

[Dragon of the West]

Okay, thanks. And are those threads usually related to specific PRs or is it possible for vanilla roles to have access to PTs?

Oh I see that you’re actually inexperienced - played some Newbie games some years ago, and came back for this game. Is that a correct summation of your experience? Because you do

sound

inexperienced, but I don’t want to assume anything.

You are correct. I played my first couple games like 5 years ago, stopped playing altogether, and now this is my first game back.

[Dragon of the West]

someone tell me if i'm being a moron

does a peta/dgb scumteam sound plausible? i don't feel like i have a great grip on their interactions so far, especially since most have been effectively by proxy

I don't see that as likely. I feel like if peta & dgb were scum together, peta wouldn't have gone so hard at the detractors of DGB's plan off the bat. That just seems like a situation where another scum would stay neutral

[Dragon of the West]

that's a moronic reply to what i just said

if you're acutely aware of that _and_ highly confident of it, as can be concluded from 538, there is quite literally nothing stopping you from intentionally playing differently in order to achieve a goal (whatever that may be) - thus rendering the self-meta argument worthless

i seriously hope i wont have to explain everything in detail to you for the rest of the game

the argument that me playing a certain way is null is worthless? like dude you just seemed to have jumped intoattacking what i was saying without bothering to understand it, and you're accusing me of not understandingg you

how would i "intentionally play different to achieve a goal" off the statement "i can play aggressive as either alignment"? it's only saying that a certain behavior isn't a scumtell for me, there's nothing for me to manipulate because i've just self-described it as null

if you want to say "i'm more likely to be aggressive as town" is worthless, then sure, whatever, you're under no obligation to believe me! but you don't have to blow a gasket over it. you seem to be flying off the handle over a reflexive dislike of self-meta, but this seems to be a discussion that is almost entirely in the theoretical realm that is unlikely to be useful to the game we are actually playing right now


can you take a breather and calm down for a minute? what are your reads right now?

the issue I take with this argument is in that same post where you said "I can play aggressive as either alignment", you then specifically linked me to a game where you played a cautious scum. That seems manipulative even if your words preceding that were trying to project the sense of a neutral self-assessment. And it just feels like cherry-picking on your part.

VOTE: petapan

[Dragon of the West]

you mentioned going through my previous games and i directed you to one because i'd already posted it. is it manipulative to provide something you're looking for?


(uh, i butchered that and stuck my reply in the middle of the quote)

Can you direct me to a town game of yours where you were very aggressive, particularly early in the game? I don't care about examples where you were cautious. I quickly looked through a couple of your ISOs and didn't see an instance, but you have so many games and threads that there's no way for me to thoroughly check that. Even without the aggro, I still think your reasoning in the early game was scummy.

[Dragon of the West]

an inordinate amount of your posting has been focused solely on me. do you have reads on other players in the game?

I've been focusing on you because you're my strongest read so far. But a couple of my reads in no particular order:

Lean Town:

Titus - Scumhunting, scum wouldn't have a reason to make posts like 514 and 520
DGB - I agree DBG probably wouldn't put themselves out there and make that early game pos ti f they're mafia. Their follow-up posts seem to have real conviction, not like a mafia just doubling down for appearances. I don't think their early post alone warranted as much confidence in them as you seemed to immediately have, but I agree it's townie.
nom - I like their activity and thinking so far. sort of unrelated, but I also agree with them that we shouldn't be so eager to lynch a lurk spot without even trying to get them to be active first (through votes or otherwise)


Lean scum:
Peta - I didn't like how hard and fast you came out thinking Dwlee must've been scum for disagreeing with DGB's early post. That and the ensuing convo with Nero really seemed like you just going full offensive to deflect as much as possible. And I think your town read of DGB was too strong, too early for what they had posted (this is based on my memory of when you started seeming confident in your DGB read)
Kyouko - I feel like they haven't produced a lot of their own content. Mostly just quoting walls of text and then giving one line. I also don't like the dismissiveness about the pt and when asked questions
Rathe - This is mostly gut. Their early sheeping convos were weird to me

[Dragon of the West]

okay so upon rereading I think I scumlean towards T3 and STD the most
T3 hands out townreads very easily and yet does feel so much more reluctant calling anyone scum which feels like a big red flag to me.
STD feels like a slot posting for the sake of posting, I can see scum easily posting stuff like

what if you're shit at crumbing things

i can't believe i forgot to vote

VOTE: osuka

mostly only posts when mentioned, 615 also feels really preemptive defense when vfp didn't say why he scumread him
the only post I think could indicate town!std is this one

VOTE: Dunnstral

i like osuka for town

i like petapan for town

i like titus for town

i like nero cain for town

but again very little reasoning towards the votes, and the vote on Dunn feels like a safe non committal vote
I wish I could vote both slots, but I think std's iso is much more scummy
VOTE: std

Nom can you explain your feelings on the Kyo wagon? You had your vote on them, the things you originally scumread them for haven't changed or been rationalized by you or Kyo, you drop your vote to reread, and then you completely omit them from your follow-up

[Dragon of the West]

Huh. ssbm is very scummy but I'm hesitant to lim him because of the neighborhood. Also Dragon of the West and osuka are townreads from reading the past few pages.

VOTE: ssbm

What changed that made you overcome your hesitancy?

[Dragon of the West]

I think if Nero is right about TvT Dwlee/peta (he also posits DGB but I disagree) that Dragon of the West makes sense as scum. Just finished a full reread in that frame of mind and realized DotW's catchup only looks like a catchup but seems to just build into a manufactured vote on a popular scumread Peta.

It seems odd to me that nobody, even Peta noticed that the game that he "specifically linked" to DotW had in fact been posted long before a game had been requested in the "Mod Meta" post. DotW cites "cherry picking" as a reason to vote Peta, which is a reason Nero brings up early on to scumread Peta, iirc. I know Nero used the term and I believe newbscum!DotW stole that to manufacture a scumread on Peta.

VOTE: DotW

I can get quotes but I'm on mobile atm. Combined iso peta/DotW for.context

Provide quotes when you can.

Tbh, I didn't realize the game he originally linked me was the one he already linked in his Mod Meta post until he mentioned it. However, my point was he tried using that specific game to rationalize his play this game and that was a game where he played cautious scum...and then used that to say he couldn't be aggressive scum this game. I felt it would've made more sense to show me a game where he had played aggressive town (I'm reading through the aggro town game he later linked atm). Also, if you did read my ISO I made it clear in that I had a scum read on him independent of what I considered him to be cherry picking the game he linked

[Dragon of the West]

I think if Nero is right about TvT Dwlee/peta (he also posits DGB but I disagree) that Dragon of the West makes sense as scum. Just finished a full reread in that frame of mind and realized DotW's catchup only looks like a catchup but seems to just build into a manufactured vote on a popular scumread Peta.

It seems odd to me that nobody, even Peta noticed that the game that he "specifically linked" to DotW had in fact been posted long before a game had been requested in the "Mod Meta" post. DotW cites "cherry picking" as a reason to vote Peta, which is a reason Nero brings up early on to scumread Peta, iirc. I know Nero used the term and I believe newbscum!DotW stole that to manufacture a scumread on Peta.

VOTE: DotW

The really strange thing about this post to me after reading through your ISO is that you haven't really made a strong claim about Nero and the entirety of your "full reread" that leads to you thinking I'm scum is based on the premise of "if Nero is right about TvT Dwlee/peta"

Also, I'm pretty sure one of my very first posts said I was scumreading peta, well before peta had linked me to anything that I would've called cherry picking

[Dragon of the West]

let's pretend that ssbm and anya have bubonic plague (yes ppl still get it) and not go near them

Kyo really seems scummy to me. If Kyo and Anya are the only people in the neighborhood, it could not even be a neighborhood and they could just both be mafia doing some weird gambit. I'm not as strong on Anya but the whole thing between those 2 is weird

[Dragon of the West]

If Kyo and Anya are the only people in the neighborhood, it could not even be a neighborhood and they could just both be mafia doing some weird gambit.

this literally never happens

It felt dumb to type that but honestly nothing about that pt makes sense. Neither of them have explained themselves in a way I consider to be satisfactory and now with minimal information about what was actually said in the pt, Anya is completely with Kyo to the point that they're sheeping

[Dragon of the West]

i've lost all passion and energy i think i need a mafia break after this game

VOTE: dragon of the west sheeping my neighbour bc he's town with a good read or is bussing

Anya can you explain more specifics about what's been discussed in the neighborhood that's led you to feel this way about Kyo

[Dragon of the West]

i've lost all passion and energy i think i need a mafia break after this game

VOTE: dragon of the west sheeping my neighbour bc he's town with a good read or is bussing

This take makes no sense to me. You sheeping would mean you just blindly trust kyo's vote which would require them to be town...but then you say they might be bussing. Do you think they're town or not and if you think they might not be why are you so sure that scum!Kyo would only be bussing instead of voting someone they know is town?

[Dragon of the West]

yes, well, there is obvious incentive for scum to fake scumhunting in that situation. in a situation where neither are in a hood, claiming to be in a hood together is a terrible play because if one ever flips the other is doomed. it's not a gambit anyone realistically attempts

I'm fucking stupid I didn't think about how them being 'neighbor' would be shown in their role if either of them flipped. Still, since they're the only 2 in the hood they could both just be scum. I just hate everything about their interactions/explanations

[Dragon of the West]

I don't want to think about the neighbors right now.

Dwlee - if you're ignoring the neighbors, give a few specific players you're looking to push.

My current vote preference:
1) peta
2) kyo
3) anya
4) one of the lurkers

Town reads/leans:
- DGB
- T3
- Nom

Confused by:
Nero

[Dragon of the West]

I don't want to think about the neighbors right now.

Dwlee - if you're ignoring the neighbors, give a few specific players you're looking to push.

My current vote preference:
1) peta
2) kyo
3) anya
4) one of the lurkers

Town reads/leans:
- DGB
- T3
- Nom

Confused by:
Nero

One of the lurkers I think is our best bet. There are enough of them that I wouldn't be surprised if most of the game has just been town yelling at each other.

So you think no one that's been active is scummy enough to vote over a lurker? Or at least push further before settling on a lurker?

[Dragon of the West]

@DotW

Can I convince you to vote Anya?

Coming out as a neighbor and starting neighbor drama so early in the game has been bugging me from the beginning, and the more I think about it, the scummier it is.

I mean if it comes down to needing votes to lim anya over someone that's not on my list, then sure. They're on my list because I'm willing to vote them. I'd still like to see more activity from some & wait for people to come back from VLA and post catchups before trying to consolidate wagons

[Dragon of the West]

@dragon of the west

hey dude, remind me again why you think i'm scum? because i'm "going full offensive to deflect as much as possible", right? do you think that's what scum do? explain your thinking here

Damn dude gimme a sec I'm getting there lol

[Dragon of the West]

hey dude, remind me again why you think i'm scum? because i'm "going full offensive to deflect as much as possible", right? do you think that's what scum do? explain your thinking here

-your arguments in that early game seemed irrational
-combined with how aggro you were being it seemed like playing defense through offense
-I haven't liked a lot of your takes since and you've seemed very reactive
-your interactions with other people I'm scumreading have added onto my suspicions of you

If you give me a little bit I was going to go through posts to find the specific ones I remember bothering me. I was originally doing that but you got impatient so I wanted to give you this to satiate you until I pull the other posts together

[Dragon of the West]

@peta - forgot to mention me not liking how fast you strongly townread DGB but we've already talked about this in circles

304 - this seemed disingenuous. you had to have known most of the votes you were referring to weren't of substance

312 - It really seems like your argument here was predicated on the idea that Dwlee must be scum because he made an 'easy' argument...which is just a weird jump to me. or you're thinking that the DGB vs Dwlee convo had to be TvS? which again I don't like that assumption

538 - gonna be honest, I remembered this post very differently in my head before re-reading it. I thought I remembered you linking that game...not just mentioning a game you already linked. And I remembered the tone being different. Not sure it makes a difference overall, but me thinking this specific post was scummy might have been a bit of confbias because on re-read I don't see it

648 - idk...I think this is a convenient answer of how you immediately 'knew' where DGB was coming from but I don't know if it's fully believable. this explanation alone isn't scummy though. And this is what's going to keep getting re-hashed like in 758

Your interactions with kyo and posts where you've mentioned them have just seemed strange to me. like it hasn't seemed to me like either of you put your heart into it. especially for someone you've said you're unsure of. I would've expected a lot more inquisitiveness from you, based on how you've been pushing other players:
316,486,619,647

648 - you asked me specifically about any reads I had because I was focusing on you too much so I gave you 639. the only thing you responded to my read list with was your response to my scum read of you.

753 - can you explain your reads on why anya is scummier than kyouko. You've said it a couple times but I haven't seen you say why

840 - you don't find it strange that something in the pt magically happened and the anya/kyo thing evaporated?

also, you gave me a hard time for focusing on you so much. and then are like "wait a sec, focus on me again and re-explain your read on me" which I don't know if it's totally scummy, but man it's annoying

[Dragon of the West]

@nero 900
I think you've made A LOT of posts to sift through and I'm not going to pick through your ISO rn, but some of your posts seem like good logic and others really seem like nitpicking/twisting people's intentions. It's hard for me to tell if that's just you scumhunting or actually trying to just muddy the waters everywhere

[Dragon of the West]

Peta, I'm convinced that if I told you my favorite Wawa smoothie you'd think it was scum-indicative.

What is it?

Caramel Cream.

You gotta go with strawberry mango. Wawa's fruit smoothies>>>

[Dragon of the West]

990
To be honest, I think part of my read on you being strongest is the fact that you've produced so much more content than my other scum reads. You've just had a higher number of scummy posts...by nature of having more posts. Day 1 reads are tough, especially since so many people have been pretty inactive

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: DGB

Nah, this ain't it. I'm not seeing why people started SRing DGB. Their style of posts haven't changed at all since the same people town read them at the start of the game, even if you find their most recent posts, to quote you, "cringe"

[Dragon of the West]

I only go for this as scum or 100% certain that's shown enough in my games.

What does the first part of this mean. I think my brain is fried and it's only Monday

[Dragon of the West]

1127
On mobile so I don't feel like quoting and formatting that whole post but when he said list specific players didn't you ask about like 10 people? Not saying anything about the validity of asking for reads but I felt like I remember you responding with a huge list which was so big it was obvious he wouldn't give reads on after refusing to make a reads list

[Dragon of the West]

I think there's evidence here that I am scum or Nom is.
If Nom flips town I'm claiming scum. We can vote either of us first.

I feel like I'm dumb reading this. I don't understand this thought process from town or scum. I'm amazed Day 1 town would want to 1v1... If you're wrong and you're town you're essentially giving scum 2 free town lims. If you're scum you're essentially putting yourself on a platter unless you think the person you're accusing will get limmed day 1 and then you can wriggle out of it day 2 by going "oops". Can someone tell me why I'm wrong?

[Dragon of the West]

DOTW, Andre, Dunn are barely playing and the derek slot is still empty

Weird grouping of 3 when I've been just as active if not more active than T3 and Kyo. Not everyone can post 50 times a day

[Dragon of the West]

What's your point? yes it was a pretty big list but I don't see how that makes it less bad. The only thing is that you could maybe argue that scum wouldn't be so blatantly scummy but sometimes scum just do scummy things. IDK, refusing to give stances is bad.

My point was I feel like it was obvious he wasn't going to give you reads if you asked for that such a long list of "specific" people. Whether or not he's scummy for not wanting to give a full read list, I'm not sure. I agree he should have provided SOME reads though. Independent of that, giving him a big list you know he won't fill out so that you can just hammer that point over and over just feels misleading at best though

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: DGB

Nah, this ain't it. I'm not seeing why people started SRing DGB. Their style of posts haven't changed at all since the same people town read them at the start of the game, even if you find their most recent posts, to quote you, "cringe"

It is like every post is meant to infuriate me in a subtle way that I think means it is scum.

Infuriates me = scum is not the best take I've seen. Half the people in this game have been outright rude to each other repeatedly lol

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: DGB

Nah, this ain't it. I'm not seeing why people started SRing DGB. Their style of posts haven't changed at all since the same people town read them at the start of the game, even if you find their most recent posts, to quote you, "cringe"

It is like every post is meant to infuriate me in a subtle way that I think means it is scum.

Infuriates me = scum is not the best take I've seen. Half the people in this game have been outright rude to each other repeatedly lol

It's about the way it irritates me though. There is a qualitative difference between how DGB's posts bother me and the way that the people being rude bothers me.

I'm just not seeing how that can be AI unless you take issue with the actual game-related content in the posts

[Dragon of the West]

Who is being rude? the only one that seems slightly toxic has been peta. DGB and Titus are just scum though.

There have been a handful of interactions I've found unnecessarily rude between people, but that might just be the nature of mafia games. If you actually care I'll go through the game thread and point some out when I have time on my lunch or after work tomorrow.
DGB is definitely town though. You're dead wrong on that read.
With that I'm calling it a night. I'll check in throughout the day tomorrow to see if anyone can tell me why anything VFP is doing makes sense

[Dragon of the West]

990
To be honest, I think part of my read on you being strongest is the fact that you've produced so much more content than my other scum reads. You've just had a higher number of scummy posts...by nature of having more posts. Day 1 reads are tough, especially since so many people have been pretty inactive

bullshit answer dude

Not really man. For me strength of read is something like (Scumminess of individual) * (Confidence in read). I'm more confident in my read on you because of all your posts and interactions I've found scummy. And it's not even that I'm 100% on you or anything it's just that I'm so unsure of Anya, Kyo, and some of the other less active people. I do want to spend my energy elsewhere for now though to try and get a better grip on everything that happened yesterday

[Dragon of the West]

I'm not seeing why people started SRing DGB. Their style of posts haven't changed at all since the same people town read them at the start of the game

Is your town read on DBG based on their style not changing? Are you upset that the game state changed?

what about all the posts trying to subtly imply that nomm is being bussed?

Or they're both scum and one is guaranteed to bask in towncred after one dies.

y bus nom when he could have just easily mislynched me?

I suppose he could bus both his buddies.

Hey peta, what are the odds that VFP is doing a textbook day 1 bus?

But won't actually take a stance b/c DGB needs "clarity". That must be one good feeling fence.

manipulation is very scummy says DGB and DGB is doing plenty of it.

That's what I'm being pushed on but when given a chance to list an example of me being manipulative couldn't provide an example.

So why is DGB town, still just town reading based on 17?

My read on DGB isn't about 17 and that never was the only reason. I think DGB has played like paranoid town. And honestly it just reads to me like they can't figure out if the VFP play is real. If you're paranoid town you're worried that VFP and nom are scum together and that if one gets limmed then the other gets suuuuper towncred. All I see DGB doing is laying the thought process out in the thread to argue that if one of those lims gets through we don't treat the other like conftown

[Dragon of the West]

Do you notice that they unvote rather than vote scum me?
Thats because scum do not want flips within me and Nom here, Nom included.

Even the "self vote" was a shitty attempt at AtE like I called. Nom agreed that they should be okay with the lim on them to find me as scum, and suddenly unvotes and not even votes me?
This shows that the self vote and posting was just fake yesterday.

Osuka, where you at?

Too many players are trying to dodge this behaviour from Nom. Get to voting there!
Or even me. I really don't give a shit other than voting outside of us.

SCUM. DO. NOT. WANT. THIS. DUAL!
Scum are not voting in us.

Look at who's voting, and who's dodging. It says a lot.

This duel doesn't make flawless sense from town perspective either. Even if you're town, I'm supposed to trust your read 100%. And if you are town AND you're wrong then we just limmed two town to start the game

[Dragon of the West]

lets be real here man (vpf) we prob don't have the votes for a nom lynch. DOTW and Andre prob just vote me here. Could see Dunn maybe vote me but IDK. Anya and STD won't vote nom. Even if osuka and omega come over we still don't have enough and a persumable town peta is scumsiding so I don't think we could count on his vote. I think the only way we could lynch scum if we all go to Titus or Rathe.

What makes you think I'd just vote you here? You just love saying random shit. My specific vote list I gave earlier was Peta, Kyo, Anya, lurker.
"Oh yeah everyone just vote between these other two people I decided because I made up info about where people will vote"

[Dragon of the West]

If you're paranoid town you're worried that VFP and nom are scum together and that if one gets limmed then the other gets suuuuper towncred. All I see DGB doing is laying the thought process out in the thread to argue that if one of those lims gets through we don't treat the other like conftown

naw she's just fence-sitting. If she's town that thinks nom is getting bussed she just votes nom and gets a scum lynched. No way DGB thinks that VFP is going to escape night actions. And if DGB just wants the thought process/warning out there ok it's out there....so where's the action? no DGB needs "clarity" but isn't asking any questions or doing anything proactive. DGB is straddling that fence b/c scum don't know what to do about this 1v1, whether that makes it TvT or nom is infact caught scum, idk.

The whole point is that DGB isn't sure if nom is just getting bussed or not so they don't want to tip the scales in a way that might benefit scum. How could they be sure? And your last line completely dismisses the possiblity of what DGB is afraid of:
"DGB must be scum because they're unsure of what to do and by extension that means it's either TvT or Nom is caught scum because if it was bussing then scum would know so DGB would know because I'm saying they're scum". You're just starting with a thought you like and create a complete circle of logic to get you where you want to go from there to prove the original thought. But proving your original guess relies on the the original guess being factual. Here's a post by you:

-dumb idea
-bunch of random bullshit that MIGHT make sense if the original dumb idea is 100% true
-random bullshit that started with dumb idea
-random bullshit "proves" it's true
-repeat circle

[Dragon of the West]

This duel doesn't make flawless sense from town perspective either.

Do you think he's scum that is trying to lynch nom here or town that thinks nom is scum?

Fuck I had such a long post typed out replying to this and it didn't post for some reason. After this meeting I'll rewrite it

[Dragon of the West]

This duel doesn't make flawless sense from town perspective either.

Do you think he's scum that is trying to lynch nom here or town that thinks nom is scum?

That's the problem. He could be either of those things or he could be scum bussing nom.

If he's scum bussing nom - it a good lim because we get scum. But we can't just give vfp conftown just because nom flips scum
If he's scum limmng town!nom - we'd have to make sure he can't go "lol whoops my b I was wrong" to wriggle out of getting limmed. But then you're hesitant to lim him because what if it was TvT and he was just wrong. Here it's obviously a bad lim
If he's Town that just THINKS he found scum!nom - bad to do this lim (especially on day 1) as a 1v1 because if he's wrong we limmed town and now we pretty much are forced into deciding whether it was an awful town strat or scum and even if he's right we aren't gonna conftown him anyway because of the way he did it.
Frankly I'm not sold on VFPs argument against nom that makes him so sure. If anything in this scenario you'd lim vfp first since he's the one pushing for the 1v1 but even after he flips you'd have to figure out if he was bussing (if flipped scum) or if you trust him being so sure (if flipped town). Either way I don't like it. And you both are insinuating it "says a lot" about the people not voting either of them but well over half the players never voted the 1v1 so I don't really think you have a point

[Dragon of the West]

you might be able to hit back on your browser, it works for me sometimes.

fucking thank you. I had to hit back like 20 times but it worked

[Dragon of the West]

Is nom town or is VFP bussing?

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

I'm townreading nom, but VFP's behavior is classic bus'ing, VFP is so sure nom will flip scum and he will bask in towncred, it gives me pause.

I don't think it's scummy of DGB to reflect on their own reads day 1 and think about if they're misreading scum, what strategy those scum could be trying
DGB: I'm townreading nom, but if I'm wrong and nom flips scum I'm worried VFP would be treated like conftown

1158 - worried about scum hiding in nom wagon. "lots of possibilities."

I really think DGB is just trying to think through the scenarios and is unsure about what the strat could be which is why their vote wasn't on the 1v1. I know I don't like the strategy for the reasons I've laid out so my vote didn't touch the 1v1

[Dragon of the West]

I'm over how much day 1 has spiraled. Maybe people can consolidate and settle on a lim so we can get a flip and actually move on.

I want to vote:
Peta, Kyo, Anya

Would vote for lurking:
Dunnstral

Would like to see their catchups on this 1v1 BS before deciding:
osuka, andresvmb, ChaosOmega

If forced to settle on someone else:
Rathe- I almost think this slot is worth a lurky vote. So many empty posts or 5 posts to say what could have been said in 1 post.
VFP - I don't really want to touch either side of this 1v1 but mechanically it makes more sense to lim VFP first. How over the top they were about the 1v1 rubbed me the wrong way especially since I feel like it's a shitty town play

Would want to re-assess on D2:
Nero, STD, Dwlee, nom (unless their replacement does something before the end of D1 that gives me a strong read)

Town:
DGB

Lean town:
T3, Titus

No one seems to be into voting peta/anya/kyo with me so once those people I mentioned provide catchups I'll try compromising on a vote with people

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: dunnstral

fuck letting him get away with what he's doing

It makes me feel dirty that I might end up on this wagon you're startIng but also voting Dunn is more out of principle

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: Chaos

DGB, can you enlighten me here. We're looking at only 2 posts to go off

[Dragon of the West]

Yeah Chaos replaced Derek12 and Vax replaced Nom

[Dragon of the West]

Alright
VOTE: Chaos
What say you, Chaos?

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: Chaos

DGB, can you enlighten me here. We're looking at only 2 posts to go off

Just a player who got demotivated when opening a red role PM.

From experience, these slots are often scum and get bus'sed because they are a liability to the scum team.

I wasn't demotivated after opening my role PM, I was sent my role asking for confirmation with my replacement announcement not posted in the game. I confirmed and asked if I had to wait to post. By the time it happened, I had started work for the day. I got demotivated trying to read through this entire game.

Anyways, looks like you guys are cool with letting Dunn do nothing and get away with it, so have fun with that. I'm VT.

I can see this. If I joined a game with 1500 posts on day 1 I'd be unmotivated to read everything. I'm satisfied with this for now and would prefer to wait until Day 2 to read this slot.

VOTE: Dunn

[Dragon of the West]

Bussing is when there is a fast wagon because busses go fast like the wagon fast

Vroom vroom

[Dragon of the West]

titus wagon is dead.

Dunn prob ends up being the days lynch and eh fine

im still investigating andre but im changing my vig target to DGB

Why would you vig DGB if you want Titus dead

[Dragon of the West]

I think we just go Titus.
Scum killing Nero show either a threat there or setting up Titus more. However, I don't think they target Nero as a protective PR, meaning that this wasn't a consideration when killing and most likely means Titus is lying.

VOTE: Titus

How do you feel about nom's slot now?

[Dragon of the West]

why did they kill nero lol

That's what I'm trying to figure out. I guess there were never any universal townreads though.

It's possible they thought he was a PR. Or a vig got him and the scum kill was blocked (if Titus is being honest and we extrapolate that to mean there is a babysitter(s))

[Dragon of the West]

However, I don't think they target Nero as a protective PR, meaning that this wasn't a consideration when killing and most likely means Titus is lying

Can you explain what you're saying like I'm an idiot?

You think Titus is lying about being a babysitter enabler because he's scum, meaning the scum team knows he's lying, and therefore don't hunt for a protective role with their kill? If I have that thought process right, what about Nero's slot makes you think scum wouldn't kill there looking for a protective role?

Alternate scenario: what if Titus is town so scum believe his role claim and then kill someone that they think wouldn't protect any of the mafia since that would mean risking a scum death

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: DGB

VOTE: goofballs

scared of the cane

VOTE: DGB
I'm still good with this.

I don't want to think about the neighbors right now.

I think claiming the hood early is the best thing to do as town unless you can convince me otherwise.

Anya I've been convinced, throw DGB on the pile of people I'm willing to lim.

Wondering if you think Kyo is scummy? You've really done your best to avoid talking about the neighbors but seem to side with Anya easily. That tracks with your thought process that claiming neighbors is a town play...but the rest of these actions don't follow because in 880 you say there's probably scum in neighborhoods.

VOTE: Dwlee

[Dragon of the West]

Oops I meant to link 888 not 880.

But they haven't done or explained anything. And for some reason that's good enough for everyone. You're jumping on a bad wagon, DGB is town

[Dragon of the West]

^ that is @Dwlee

[Dragon of the West]

DGB keeps disagreeing with me on the most random and stupid mechanical stuff and I think it is just DGB indicative rather than alignment.

You were right here

[Dragon of the West]

I just take issue that for the past 800 posts you've been stuck on DGB and Andre but even those reads don't seem to have a ton of conviction. DGB just bothers you and Andre you've just said is lurky. The only other scum read I remember you mentioning is you'd be "willing to compromise" on voting Rathe. You don't want to touch the hood and in your own words you've had a hard time reading the active posters. Bleh I don't like it and the DGB wagon is so bad

[Dragon of the West]

Thanks for explaining your thought process.

Unless of course, they are worried that the babysitter would protect them.

I think this is a plenty good reason to say we can't draw conclusions on Titus from the Nero lim. Also, I don't remember many people having super hard town reads on Nero aside from maybe Dwlee? And the general surprise from people that have posted so far show (to me at least) that most weren't expecting Nero to be killed...meaning it would be a good target for scum worried about a babysitter protecting town

[Dragon of the West]

Spoiler:

It's not an RVS vote btw

there a reason that you aren't using your words to try to get DGB lynched?

Been trying to talk to Anya but she's just trolling me

n i sheep until i have a better idea of whats happening

Why do you sheep DGB in particular over Peta or Nero?
Keeping in mind you're also voting with Peta.

dgb seemed like town more than anyone else on page 1

*blows raspberry*
I dont see how so many people are seeing 17 this way

kyo is here but not contributing or really attempting t o do anything.

just snoozing away, but i leave MS open on my pc all the time so it might say I'm online.

Will get to the PT allegations later, have to get ready for an appointment

oops i just dropped my

491 revolver

that i use for cooking betting go into my workshop

gun room

so i can get a replacement before

petapan

does

still waiting on whatever happened in that pt, this is important

for the first day it was just me posting in there asking if anyone else was there bc i couldn't tell and also wasn't sure whether everyone in there is town or not

and then kyouko showed up and started jokingly claiming wolf but in a really weird way it was like he had a guilty conscious and wanted to get it off his chest but try and make it look like a joke

i'll give you a paraphrased example of what he said: "Sup I haven't played scum before but I'm gonna be pocketing you, it's nothing personal and I won't mind if you push me ftr"

and then i questioned him on it and he jokingly deflected and eventually said he was completely joking and he's definitely town but the way he's nervously declaring himself a city dweller feels really weird

Idk everything in that pt feels like a joke, like anya is crumbing all kinds of different roles but she crumbed traitor first and I think she's just crumbing others now to throw me off. I'm just going to keep an EYE on her tonight and by eye I mean GUN

Titus, Kyoko is scum.

From what was said in the PT or from main game?

Both

You don't know what it's like in there

oops i just dropped my

491 revolver

that i use for cooking betting go into my workshop

gun room

so i can get a replacement before

petapan

does

still waiting on whatever happened in that pt, this is important

for the first day it was just me posting in there asking if anyone else was there bc i couldn't tell and also wasn't sure whether everyone in there is town or not

and then kyouko showed up and started jokingly claiming wolf but in a really weird way it was like he had a guilty conscious and wanted to get it off his chest but try and make it look like a joke

i'll give you a paraphrased example of what he said: "Sup I haven't played scum before but I'm gonna be pocketing you, it's nothing personal and I won't mind if you push me ftr"

and then i questioned him on it and he jokingly deflected and eventually said he was completely joking and he's definitely town but the way he's nervously declaring himself a city dweller feels really weird

Idk everything in that pt feels like a joke, like anya is crumbing all kinds of different roles but she crumbed traitor first and I think she's just crumbing others now to throw me off. I'm just going to keep an EYE on her tonight and by eye I mean GUN

are you claiming anya is outright lying about the contents of the PT?

We're just danking out in there

Kyo, what's your current read on Anya? You haven't mentioned them since the last post I quoted here and it seems like they've been doing all of the talking for the both of you related to the hood. I need more explanation from you/the hood about how you guys got to where you are reads-wise.

VOTE: Kyouko

Side note: @Dwlee I don't know how you can read Kyo's ISO and think "this is good enough for me" as town!Dwlee

[Dragon of the West]

I don't really understand the push on Kyo. I trust town!anya to be able to read her neighbor's alignment better than we can here. They can play that minigame, we can play in the real world of the thread.

So I went back to read Anya's early posts...and I'm delusional. I think that whole neighbor discussion got distorted in my brain as it got buried by all the other convos. They're either pulling a huge gambit or Anya just made a mistake on D1

UNVOTE:

[Dragon of the West]

@Andres - I think you're taking the convo out of context in 1731. The point wasn't that DGB 100% viewed both slots as scum and that was reason not to lim. 1317 was about the thought process of an earlier post they made where they said if nom flips scum, don't read vfp as conftown. That's all

[Dragon of the West]

DGB + DotW + Titus all just insisting they are a town block gives me the heeby jeebies.

In case people ever need to come back to this to solve the game, I can only confirm DGB and myself as town. Titus is just a read right now

[Dragon of the West]

do u rly think scum plays that way

I'm not going to overthink it if I scumread those slots. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel at least decent about two of those three being evil.

Anya do you stand by your claim at the beginning of the game. If so, how could you have claimed that but thought Kyo was scum and vote them. None of that interaction at the beginning makes any sense based off your claim

[Dragon of the West]

Oooops I left those in Q+. It was just supposed to be the text @Anya

[Dragon of the West]

Your initial claim wasn't that you were just neighbors

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: Anya

[Dragon of the West]

I mean my view on it is Anya claimed mason, which is a guaranteed town role for themself and everyone in that PT...but then outed herself and Kyo and voted Kyo...if Kyo is in that mason PT they would have to be a town-aligned mason since this is a normal. Then they both fall off the map, don't thoroughly answer any questions about it, and don't look to be scumhunting. Idk if someone can tell me why I'm thinking about this wrong but it's either a really weird dumb play or it's a botched and strange scum gambit we're just letting them not explain

[Dragon of the West]

DotW claimed cop inno on dgb though.

Can you point me to this please?

For the record I

didn't

claim I had a

cop

inno. I said I can confirm DGB as town-aligned

[Dragon of the West]

i'm a mason but no one else is in the topic

is it possible to have only 1?

no one's showing up in the pt and i'm starting to think i really am alone there

unless they're playing a prank on me? i'll keep a lookout on the youtube channels to see if i appear on any

somebody finally posted in my pt but they're trying to convince me now that they're a wolf and i should vote for them even though it's a mason pt...

i'm just gonna claim it and say kyouko is the person in the pt with me

he's been non stop trolling me and saying he's totally a wolf and i should vote for him and i'm starting to believe him

VOTE: kyouko

How is this claiming Mason? The first post is clearly a joke, and everything else is really far from claiming Mason (which btw no one would reasonably do as Town).

Guess I'm an idiot because I thought I remembered people responding about if it's possible to only have 1 and then they transitioned to talking about the pt without much other explanation so I thought the Mason thing might have just been a cheeky claim or something. My scum read on the neighborhood actually pre-dated me re-reading the bit about them being masons though and I unvoted when I re-read and thought Anya claimed mason. That's why I wanted

something

from them though, like some explanation about the neighborhood or what they were reading from each other because I didn't like their play, particularly kyouko's

[Dragon of the West]

I don't really understand the push on Kyo. I trust town!anya to be able to read her neighbor's alignment better than we can here. They can play that minigame, we can play in the real world of the thread.

So I went back to read Anya's early posts...and I'm delusional. I think that whole neighbor discussion got distorted in my brain as it got buried by all the other convos. They're either pulling a huge gambit or Anya just made a mistake on D1

UNVOTE:

This is where I re-read and thought Anya claimed mason. Again, I guess I'm dumb

[Dragon of the West]

A lot of my read of the situation with Anya and SSBM was the premise that I thought they were masons btw. If that's not the case then my "I trust Anya to read Kyo" comment kinda goes out the drain and I don't have much of an opinion on Kyo anymore.

If this is real I guess I'm not the only one that took the claim legitimately

[Dragon of the West]

A lot of my read of the situation with Anya and SSBM was the premise that I thought they were masons btw. If that's not the case then my "I trust Anya to read Kyo" comment kinda goes out the drain and I don't have much of an opinion on Kyo anymore.

Wait how did you think they were masons but not question Anya voting Kyo

[Dragon of the West]

No, dragon of the west claimed a cop inno on DGB @kyo

I read that post, the one where he said "I can only confirm DGB as town"

It read to me as a confident read that could be treated as an inno if DotW ever flipped investigative, but not as a claim of any kind. I dont think he's claimed anything since either, but I'm curious if either are claiming mason as they're 2 of my top 3 scumreads

No, I'm claiming that I have a PM saying DGB is town-aligned. I feel like I was explicit about that by specifically saying I could

confirm

DGB but not Titus. Feels like you aren't reading my posts and/or you're trying to purposefully muddy the water

[Dragon of the West]

DotW/DGB do either of you claim mason?

I'm really not inclined to answer this coming from someone who I'm SRing and couldn't take the time to answer any of my 5 million questions directed at them.

I'm going to wait for DGB to get back in here before saying anything else

[Dragon of the West]

They shoot their target and also protect them from one kill. That cancels out unless there is a macho modifier.

Wait is it this or can they target two people and specify which action goes to which target?

[Dragon of the West]

They shoot their target and also protect them from one kill. That cancels out unless there is a macho modifier.

i think u r looking at it wrong cyrus can protect a target but if he dies the target dies with him he can also use his vigilante kill to kill someone they r not the same

He claimed the combined modifier

town vengeful combind vig babysiter. sounds awesome . its like given me a shotgun.

Oh nevermind thanks for linking the combined thing

[Dragon of the West]

Now this is kind of crazy but if we want to we could mech-yeet Titus to make Cyrus into just a vengeful vigilante and leash his kills.

I'm pretty against this on principle...I'd maybe consider it if I trusted Cyrus' decisions...but yeah I don't trust Cyrus. I'll kick myself if Titus flips scum though. Part of me wonders if Peta was so keen on nuking Titus even after their claim because he knew what it would mean for his role and he was willing to make that trade even if Titus was town

[Dragon of the West]

I mean yeah but also he was already SRing you so it was a convenient push for him to want to keep making. That could've just sold him on wanting to lim you more.

True on scum buddying Cyrus. Is a babysitter automatically town-aligned?

[Dragon of the West]

This is outlandish but so much about this game and roles are wild so: What if the rest of the claim is true and they added vengeful because that makes them town-aligned? Without it they could just be a SUPER powerful scum...and getting rid of Titus would give scum a vig kill each night.

[Dragon of the West]

Vengeful is the one role we can't verify through investigatives or making them claim who their targets were each day. You only can verify it by limming them

[Dragon of the West]

if i were vig i'd vig dunn
if i were an investigative i'd target dragon of the west
if i were a protective i target andres i don't know i hate everyone in this game

Went through his iso. This was the most recent list he gave

[Dragon of the West]

Honestly at this point I'd prefer a Kyo wagon over Anya and you even said you thinking Kyo was town was based on that early mason claim that wasn't real.

For right now I'm open to pushing Kyo, VFP, Chaos, Rathe, STD to see where that goes.

VOTE: Kyouko

[Dragon of the West]

VFP can you explain your groupings?

Loool

[Dragon of the West]

VFP can you explain your groupings?

Loool

Fuck I hit submit early on accident. Pretty sure that entire post from VFP was utter bullshit just to say Kyo was in both A+B and B+C. Homie made up a fake word problem

[Dragon of the West]

ok heres my deal we dont elim osuka i will target them if i die we got a 50 v 50 chance

Can we discuss the mechanics of this decision as a group: I feel like I'm against you announcing who you're protecting in advance. I'd rather scum have to guess who you're going to protect and make the decision tougher to kill you. If you announce in advance and sit on town you're giving them an easy decision to kill you and a second town and then make their night kill. If you keep it a secret they have to guess whether or not it's worth killing you. Thoughts on why I'm probably wrong?

[Dragon of the West]

T3
Save The Dragons
ChaosOmega
Rathe
Vaxkiller
VFP
osuka

Titus, who in this group are you okay with yeeting?

Are you really not interested in the "neighborhood"? I at least want to see what Anya says now.

As for the people you listed I already made a post saying who I'm open to pushing. I feel like I could probably be convinced to lim most of that list if we had to just to get a lim through. I'm honestly suspicious of your slot

[Dragon of the West]

T3
Save The Dragons
ChaosOmega
Rathe
Vaxkiller
VFP
osuka

Titus, who in this group are you okay with yeeting?

Are you really not interested in the "neighborhood"? I at least want to see what Anya says now.

As for the people you listed I already made a post saying who I'm open to pushing. I feel like I could probably be convinced to lim most of that list if we had to just to get a lim through. I'm honestly suspicious of your slot

I trust Anya's role and I don't think it is a scum role so I don't want to kill her. Kyouko sounds townie by tone even though the content has been lacking.

What are your thoughts on Osuka?

Really feel like Anya's role was NAI and I'd at least like her to explain pretending to have a neighborhood. The whole interaction between Anya and Kyo makes no sense without the pt. They spent 100 pages of game pretending to be neighbors without any preamble or agreement? I kind of believe Kyo because they ignored my questions about the hood for so long but it still doesn't really make sense.

Honestly I don't have a great feel for Osuka. I agree they've mostly just popped in, not added much original thought, and then gone back to lurking. But that doesn't seem particularly unique to the rest of the group you've listed

[Dragon of the West]

Anya how is 2641 all you have to say in response to that? Are you neighbors with someone and if so, who? If it's not Kyouko, why did you lie saying it was?

[Dragon of the West]

Also Cyrus, can you promise me to just no action. I'm 99% sure you're just going to target town and if you no action scum aren't going to shoot you.

If anything, wouldn't Cyrus doing no action be the perfect time for scum to NK him? Then there's no risk to accidentally killing scum and you remove someone that could become a vig if the enabler (assuming there is one) is removed. And you remove someone that could more easily babysit scum so you can't NK them as the game gets smaller

[Dragon of the West]

Bottom line for me right now is Anya made weird lies, hasn't produced meaningful game content, hasn't explained any of her plays or provided meaningful reasoning for them, and has been a total negative for the town. At the minimum, sorting her slot might give us some clarity on wtf is going on with her, Kyo, and you as their relentless defender. She's playing the exact style you're saying helps scum: unengaged, limited posts, not much meaningful content to help sort If she's town, she needs to be more convincing or explain herself more or something. Her slot has caused so much distraction and confusion and produced nothing but anti-town gameplay. Popping in to go "X is wolf" every now and again isn't helping town
VOTE: Anya

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: Titus
I also want this.
DotW result?

I'm not a cop. I actually meant it lol

[Dragon of the West]

I'm very confused by them choosing to shoot Cyrus and not roleblock him as well. I also have pause on Titus!scum because I think Cyrus' last stated target was Titus.

Maybe I misunderstood Vax's role PM but I thought that role locking him would protect him from a kill. So they couldn't have roleblocked and killed

[Dragon of the West]

Yes y'all are correct about the jailkeep on Cyrus consideration, although jailkeeping peta would not have given Anya no result.

Didn't Anya get that her action failed N1? Is that different than no result?

[Dragon of the West]

Nothing Anya has done makes me think scum would have a good reason to roleblock them N1. I still feel like there's scum between Anya and Kyo... Kyo scum knowing the Anya neighbor claim was a lie might lead to the decision to roleblock or Anya's just lying again. Idk but I could lim either of those slots
VOTE: Kyo

[Dragon of the West]

Action failed is just a more clear way of saying no result. But the jailkeep doesn't prevent people from targeting the person who was jailkept.

That makes sense. So to get no result they would have had to specifically roleblocked Anya

[Dragon of the West]

Something we should consider is that we are on even and it might be good to no-elim here.

Why does a no-elim make sense

[Dragon of the West]

If Anya's claim is real, do you think we'd have an additional investigative role besides a voyeur?

[Dragon of the West]

I'm considering sheeping VFP. He had nom nailed early on and had Osuka on his POE. I think I'm gonna have to reread everything since the new day started to get a better handle on the state of the game.

I also want to hear a more specific claim from T3 than "it's really strong"

[Dragon of the West]

I could compromise on a T3 or Andre lim for today. I think either one of those flips gives us good game info and I think it's fairly likely one of them is scum.

[Dragon of the West]

@Andres - unfortunately the bad takes in 639 were me being dumb, not scum.

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: anya

I dont really need an answer, as I already have it.

anya!town doesnt say "they're trying to convince me now that they're a wolf and i should vote for them"

It comes off as knowing ssmb_kyko cant be a wolf. (trying to CONVINCE)

anya!town WOULD SAY "ssmb keeps saying they are a wolf."

this is a stretch and really it reeks of scum trying to justify jumping on a wagon

i think i want to vote between anya and kyo today. i cant imagine why town would make a neighbor fakeclaim gambit on d1

Pretty sure Anya had ~5 votes at this point. Do we think both vax and Osuka would be bussing Anya here? I don't think there was any momentum for Kyo at this point so Osuka saying "between Anya and Kyo", it's pretty clear Anya would be the more likely lim

[Dragon of the West]

Sorry that's not related to current discussions, more directed at DGB and Titus as I read through Osukas ISO. Gonna read through the last few pages in a bit

[Dragon of the West]

T3 plausible still scum for just claiming VT but I can't go into detail why. I just feel scum T3 was preparing a fake claim then goes with "lying" there anyway.

I agree with this, but I can't say why T3 is town. So I understand the suspicion.

Can you not say why because it would reveal something or because you can't explain why you think T3 is town

[Dragon of the West]

I confused dragons!!!

Ouch lol

[Dragon of the West]

My thoughts are STD/Titus/T3/Andre in no particular order.

Like I said, I think at least one of Andres or T3 are scum and I think a flip there offers the most context for the game. STD would be a compromise pick for me.

VOTE: Andres

[Dragon of the West]

Guess I'll join the only other wagon that seems viable
VOTE: STD

[Dragon of the West]

Kyo - you're a wasted vote right now. How do you feel about the two competing wagons?

[Dragon of the West]

So we have to remember that Vax was informed.
And the informed roles are a lot more unique from Gypyx games.

It's possible that scum were informed of the babysitter

Thoughts on this VFP?

Even if Titus is town I think knowledge around the babysitter role is very plausible given how the role is.

Actually, re checking this, it looks like informed are based more around the passives on previous games.
It also seems that Gypyx likes to work around the unique role.
This game would be the babysitter Vig.

So it's plausible they knew the role anyway or Titus is scum babysitter and they knew other parts of Cyrus's role.

To clarify again.
1 informed knew all of the passives in the game, and there were a lot.
The other knew there was an ascetic role, and this role looked to be a main focus of the game.

So far we haven't seen a great amount of passives even though its plausible there are.

Scum could have also known that there was a revenge townie which could have influenced who voted or if scum tried to shadow someone else pushing town.

Hey VFP, can we come back to you talking about the informed roles? Are you suggesting that scum has/had an informed role telling them ALL passives? That seems like too much info for one slot to be informed about

[Dragon of the West]

Hey VFP, can we come back to you talking about the informed roles? Are you suggesting that scum has/had an informed role telling them ALL passives? That seems like too much info for one slot to be informed about

This is credit to Peterpan's post with the leg work.

Informed), thier activated information tells them all the modifiers that town has :

This game no, and I don't think Gypyx re uses the same. But this shows that informed isn't just a generic informed role.

Hmmm gotcha, thanks for the explanation.

[Dragon of the West]

I think Andres is the best lim here but people jumped off that wagon. STD is just PoE

[Dragon of the West]

Hey random question, if a roleblocker/jailkeeper dies during night, does their roleblock still block the person they targeted that night? Trying to figure out if Anya should have gotten a result night 2 assuming vax was the only roleblock type PR

[Dragon of the West]

I don't feel the same bad vibes and since it's apparently PoE I'm good with it for now
If hammer happens I can read during the night (not going to fully reread but I'll skim until I feel good about my understanding of things)
btw I also saw something about a neighborhood? what's that about

Anya said she was mason in her first post of the game, but then turned that into just claiming neighbor with Kyouko. Kyouko went along with it for awhile and pretended to be Anya's neighbor. Then, Kyouko later said that they had only played along with Anya's claim because they thought Anya was ACTUALLY a mason, just lying about who was in the masonry with them. so then after kyouko exposed the neighborhood to be a lie, Anya said "just kidding, Dwlee is my neighbor"; I guess because Dwlee had defended her a lot up to that point? And then Dwlee denied that claim. So as it stands there's no neighborhood after Anya pretended there was for a really long time. Oh and somewhere in there Anya also claimed to be 2-shot announcing Voyeur.

Holy crap that sounds so stupid typing it out like that. Anya - if you're town, you've played this game completely anti-town and unhelpful

[Dragon of the West]

I just think you're both scum in general. Nothing to do with each other.

no save the dragons is ok but i still think osuka is mafia

{titus, rathe}?

what do u actually see from me that u think im mafia

so 2559 is where I'm seeing them say Dragons is alright. I'm trying to look through their D1 stuff to see if they crumbed dragons as a target.

I feel like since Kyo went along with Anya's neighbor claim through D1, Rathe targeting there would be a total waste. I would have targeted outside of the neighbors because the odds of there being 2 non-scum PTs would be low so if you see someone else with a PT, you'd be inclined to think they're scum assuming Anya and Kyo's neighbor claim was legit. and going into N1 it seemed like it was

[Dragon of the West]

2560 is the first time I actually saw Rathe try to get someone to flesh out a read on them and actually engage. I could see Rathe seeing STD as close to conf-town and wanting to create a town-block with them, which involves getting townread by them.

[Dragon of the West]

What if the "informed" scum role knew that their was a PT cop. that would give scum motive to claim neighbor right out of the gate so they had an excuse if the PT cop saw they were in a PT.

VOTE: Anya

[Dragon of the West]

I saw it and unvoted STD. Vfp I don't care what your case is we are bare minimum letting Gamma check Anya tonight

and if scum NK gamma? then we have no result on Anya. and at that point that's WIFOM

[Dragon of the West]

bleeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

VOTE: StD

[Dragon of the West]

Brain fart. I reverted my vote back to who it was on before Anya without thinking because it's been made clear we're giving Gamma the night to investigate Anya so Anya's not getting limmed. Should've unvoted or done this:

VOTE: Andres

[Dragon of the West]

so u dont think the designers made the enabler be opposite alignments

Typically when an enabler acts on a different alignment's role it would be to reduce its power. So, for instance, the town mailman enabler disables scum mailman, decreasing the power. This idea is good because it can reduce swing in a setup by making a role gated in some way. For instance, if town cop catches the cop enabler mafia role, then the cop gets disabled and can't catch anyone else.

In this case, the enabler actually makes the role

stronger

. Before, the babysitter was effectively a visitor with a kill if the babysitter died. When the enabler dies, the role becomes an ungated vigilante. If the enabler was scum, this would make the setup extremely swingy as now if the enabler dies, the mafia are not only down a player but also unleashed a vigilante onto the game.

this was Dwlee's response to that Rathe post

[Dragon of the West]

Dwlee where is your PoE at now? You were on Andre before STD but when you switched I wasn't sure if you dropped Andre from the PoE

[Dragon of the West]

I'll have to re-read to find the posts to quote but I felt like Andre jumped back and forth between reads at will. I remember for a while he said he wanted to nuke my slot, then he needed to re-read as if I was town with DGB, then he made reads based on DGB and me being town, then he went back to hating my slot, then he had a post or 2 where he thought my actions were town, then he hated my slot again. Maybe I'm tunneling on it a bit because it's been his reads on me specifically that have shifted so much, but it's pinged me. And some of his scumreads lists involves me being scum without DGB being scum which makes NO sense. DGB and I are tied at the hip, but he totally left DGB off some lists that included me as scum. I'll go through his ISO to check my memory and quote posts after I make and eat dinner

[Dragon of the West]

Wall of text:

Spoiler:

The way DotW is looking to shade Anya is so bizarre I would absolutely blow it up.

DGB + DotW + Titus all just insisting they are a town block gives me the heeby jeebies.

In case people ever need to come back to this to solve the game, I can only confirm DGB and myself as town. Titus is just a read right now

I interpreted this an inno result @andre

Well if you spotted this the Scum probably did too since it’s quite blatant.

I don’t think that comes from Scum, for what it’s worth.

I'm frustrated that my scumreads are just going "no actually we are all town." Nero could be dead for the WIFOM or because he was also pushing the exact three players. If Dragon has an inno on you though so be it I guess, I just hope he got a "town" pm and not a "doesn't have a gun."

Okay I’m beginning to think that DW is Scum here. I thought there was something odd about an exchange they had with DGB, but if DGB is the Town, then DW might just be Scum.

Okay I need to re-read the game assuming DoTW and DGB are Town, see what’s there. I don’t have the energy right now but it’s something I need to do. T3 as a vote seems fine for now though.

Actually Anya wouldn’t have revealed the information as the Informed themselves - they’re most likely just a Goon if they’re Scum. But if the theory is correct, they might have been fishing for it.

where is this informed theory coming from?

Anya’s first post is them claiming to be a Mason all by themselves. Now, indulge me for a second. They could be a Traitor Neighbor that’s Informed about a Masonry, and is openly hinting at it in their first post, letting the Scum Team know to go look for them. Unfortunately I really do think DGB/DotW made themselves way obvious. But that’s a theory yeah?

STD is a bad vote. Sure nobody needs to listen to me but I really doubt it’ll flip Scum. Titus or DotW or T3 seem like vastly superior choices to me. But again, I need to finish reading. Unfortunately I have work to do.

Also I would like for anyone here to explain why then I TR both petapan and Nero Cain, even though the Scum were clearly looking to shield nom3 at one point D1 by piling on petapan (go back and look at how, after the attention really shifts against nom3, and some voters some of which have to be Town continue expressing skepticism of petapan, that the Scum decisively drive back there around 636). But where was I? Not on either wagon. And nobody seems to be flagging that post from Titus. Or 593 from T3, where they see a wagon developing on Scum (nom3), who is the most important Scum PR most likely, and goes for a vote on petapan that contradicts an earlier take from them after the Team was clearly trying to focus elsewhere. Which is horrifying. Or how about the reads from DotW on 639?

The only reason I think DGB is Town is because of how much osuka disparaged their thinking at different times. But honestly, most of the early takes are bad. And DW? I read the first 500 posts slowly and carefully, and found a lot to be concerned about. Which is why I need to read in detail what happened with Anya, because when you read posts like 422, which I have in my notes as a terrible defense of nom3, and the exchange that follows with Nero Cain, it leaves a lot to be desired.

Rathe is never Scum. I don’t know why they’re in anyone’s POE. The scrutiny from the Scum and votes, some of the exchanges… it’s just never the case. VFP please go back and read D1 and tell me why the Scum ever pile so many votes there as an alternative to their players then. Stuff like 503 for example.

Anyway, like I said, this game is long and I need some time. But I really do think the Scum are squarely among {Titus, Titus, DotW}. I have Chaos which I need to just look at carefully I haven’t had the time, and DGB. DW is an outside candidate for Scum. Everyone else is, I’m almost sure, Town. I would be amazed if STD or Anya flipped Scum, but maybe not totally shocked, but Rathe is just… never Scum.

Now, the ONE caveat I’ll give on Rathe (now that we know that it’s also Italiano), is that I know that as Scum, they can and do sometimes provides reads that are all correct. They literally had a solve in a prior game that just finished where they put only Town as solid Town, and left the rest of their Team as Null or Scum. It was incredibly risky, but that helped make me seriously think they were just Town. The accuracy here also seems uncanny, so that’s the only thing. But I just think some of the exchanges definitely lower the odds of this.

among {Titus, Titus, DotW}.

{Titus, T3, DotW}*.

I’ve tried reading carefully over multiple days, and through Day 1 and through some of Day 2, I have this:

Town
{Dunnstral [Vanilla Town], Nero Cain [Vanilla Town], petapan/cyrus [Vengeful Combined Vigilante Babysitter]}
Strong Lean Town
{ssbm_Kyouko, VFP}
Lean Town
{Dwlee99, T3, Derek12/ChaosOmega [Vanilla Town Claim], Rathe [ItalianoVD]}
Slight Lean Town
{Save The Dragons, Anya}
Neutral / Could Swing Either Direction
{ }
Slight Lean Scum
{Titus [Babysitter Enabler Claim], DGB, Dragon of the West}
Lean Scum
{ }
Scum
{osuka [Mafia Goon], nomnomnom / Vaxkiller [Mafia Informed Compulsive Jailkeeper]}

Yeah they’ve claimed that. I have also seen Scum claim Friendly Neighbor with a check on another Scum. They’re way too horribly wrong for them to be Town to me.

But frankly if they’re Masons then who is Scum?

And does 1869 strike you as the post that a Mason makes? I’m not buying that crap at all. But whatever I need to finish reading I guess. Back in like 2 more interminable hours.

Also 1369 alone should be reason enough to vote Titus. And I know DotW is defending most of their early positions as just being wrong but 1379 is equally horrifying.

Re-reading, it looks like his most recent scumread of me really shifted D3. I guess that could've been because my early reads on nom/vax slot were bad but listing me in 3058 came out of nowhere because he didn't mention me between 2059 (where he said DGB and I were too obvious about our roles) and then.

In 3062 he says the remaining scum must reside in "{Titus, T3, DotW}"....how could I be in the remaining scum without DGB being with me? and then in 3223, he only lists 3 people null or below: Titus, DGB, and me.

I don't trust his progression and how 3058 came out of nowhere rubbed me the wrong way. It felt like he was following a train of thought from somewhere else

[Dragon of the West]

DotW

Should we go into details about our roles? I think at this point it might help with the game solution.

Oh thank God I was starting to think the same thing but didn't want to out it if you didn't want to. Especially with Gamma's claim I thought it'd be helpful

[Dragon of the West]

I was potentially going to out it tomorrow if Gamma wasn't NK'd and Anya came back as having no PT

[Dragon of the West]

The theory that there may be a player who is informed of the existence of a PT cop is intriguing.

That's why I was letting it play out a bit. If Gamma came back with Anya having no PT, I was going to claim and push Gamma tomorrow because that would mean there was no PT at all or Gamma was lying about their role. VFP's argument that it was an "easy" fake claim kinda carries weight there if there actually isn't a PT. and if Anya is in a PT, I'm limming that slot to hell

[Dragon of the West]

IF Gamma's claim is real, I think there's no town PT and Gamma essentially is a straight up cop. If it's not a real claim, they're scum

[Dragon of the West]

DGB - I agree DBG probably wouldn't put themselves out there and make that early game

pos

ti

f

they're mafia. Their follow-up posts seem to have real conviction, not like a mafia just doubling down for appearances. I don't think their early post

alone

warranted as much confidence in them as you seemed to immediately have, but I agree it's townie.

this "typo" was my pathetic attempt at crumbing that my role was Town Informed on DGB

[Dragon of the West]

maybe it would make sense to kill Anya

I could hear DGB scream from here lol

[Dragon of the West]

You could read Anya's ISO pretty quick. There's not many posts and the posts that are there lack substance. Maybe at least read their opening and then the posts around when Kyo outed that they weren't a neighbor

[Dragon of the West]

Having weak masons also makes Titus look worse imo.

How?

What is "nerfed?"

Nerfed just means weakened/weaker

[Dragon of the West]

VFP - you're saying because DGB and I are weaker, it could make sense for Titus to be scum with their role?

[Dragon of the West]

If we lim Anya, who do we want Gamma to target?

[Dragon of the West]

I think we should agree on a list of like 3 people for gamma to check and they can choose who to target at night. To Dwlee's point that just protects us in case somehow scum has a rolestop role left.

In the meantime VOTE: Anya

[Dragon of the West]

Kyo and Gamma - what are your thoughts on the two wagons?

[Dragon of the West]

What difference does it make if you hammer? Why not just put your vote down and make it E-1

[Dragon of the West]

Gonna be driving so I'll have to go in depth later but I think we lim Gamma today. I'll provide my long form thought process when I'm back

[Dragon of the West]

1) The PT cop claim seems like a fake claim that made sense before scum found out that DGB and I weren't masons
2) There's no PT, PT cop doesn't make a lot of sense based on what we know about the setup. The odd night modifier is a convenient way to have to provide fewer results
3) If Gamma is town there's no way they live to investigate a 3rd person and report results. Even if Gamma lived to D6, you'd have to flip them to get conftowns and scum can NK future conftowns faster than gamma can investigate if they're odd night. If we flip them now we either lim scum!Gamma or get 2 more conftown based on gamma's PT cop results. One conftown would get NK'd tonight leaving 2 conftown. If we wait until D6 and gamma is scum then they'll have limmed me by then and we'll have no conftown.

[Dragon of the West]

If we lim Gamma and they're town -> we go into tomorrow with 2 conftown
If we lim Gamma and they're scum -> one less scum, no MELO tomorrow
If we don't lim Gamma and lim town -> I get NK'd and there's no conftown
If we don't lim Gamma and lim scum -> I get NK'd; one less scum but no conftown

[Dragon of the West]

Who hasn't claimed yet? Anyone besides Dwlee?

[Dragon of the West]

Can I remind y'all that tomorrow is MELO if we eliminate wrong?

This is coming from the slot that's been limming purely through POE

[Dragon of the West]

I am 100% open to the idea that I'm thinking about this wrong mechanically... Someone just needs to show me where I'm thinking incorrectly OR make an argument for a slot that's actually convincing and not PoE

[Dragon of the West]

This is where I'm at as well. Also, PT cop with functionally PT-less masons makes extremely little sense for scum to have, so I'm inclined to just call you mech-town.

Are you just assuming they're being honest about being a PT cop?

[Dragon of the West]

Also, if Gamma flips town then our pool we had them choose from yesterday probably didn't have scum in it

[Dragon of the West]

I'm slightly concerned that if we are in a traitor game that today is actually MELO but I don't think this game would really be balanced with two traitors here

The problem with there being a traitor and Gamma being town, is our cop then has 2 nerfs. Restricted visiting and restricted guilty results.
Gamma town means no traitor imo.

Would it be a "buff" to a town!PT cop that there's no town PT so they effectively get a mafia result if they find someone with a PT? Not sure if that would balance traitors/odd night or not

[Dragon of the West]

1) The PT cop claim seems like a fake claim that made sense before scum found out that DGB and I weren't masons

I knew you weren’t Masons and I didn’t have to shoot you for it.

I will say though that the odds that you’re Scum have probably diminished since there’s no point in diminishing your own Claim to weaken your position.

....did you....did you read the thread at all since your last D3 post? You knew we weren't masons but we were town informed on each other? Or you had no idea and that's why you scumread me?

I'd say scum knowing DGB and I were town would've taken our claim as being masons. And scum wouldn't have to shoot us for it....DGB literally outed us as solely being town informed before end of D3.

The odds of me being scum are "diminished"....because we reduced our claim? Not because DGB and I claimed mutual town informed and then they got NKd and flipped town informed?

Holy fuck I want to lim this slot lmao

[Dragon of the West]

No reason for scum to kill gamma tonight. They're VT tonight if they're odd night. That buys another day of confusion and unconfirmed claims

[Dragon of the West]

You're either letting them get to D6 where we have no conftown left until gamma flips or if they're alive come D6 and they're scum, town is done. I think we flip gamma and if they turn red I'm looking at Dwlee/Chaos/Andres. If VFP is deep wolf, town loses and bravo on having the guts to bus what I'm assuming was scums' best PR in nom3 on D1

Pedit: if Gamma is town and we don't lim, they don't provide value until D6 or later and it might be too late by then. If they're scum, we obv want to lim. If they're town and we lim now, at least we're getting meaningful info before it's too late

[Dragon of the West]

T3 is cleared of being main scum

Question for you, what made you pick T3 over the other 2 in your pool?

[Dragon of the West]

I'm going to recreate your list but add in the fact that scum will lim the "clears" each night. And we can compare that vs limming gamma today. Just need to get to the slow part of my work day

[Dragon of the West]

If we no elim D5 also it would go (assuming 2 scum)

D4: 8 2
D5: 7 2
D6 : 6 2

If we eliminate gamma D6 then D7 is 4 2 with clears or 5 1. Or scum have to kill Gamma before this plan executes.

I'd prefer to do everything worst case scenario for town. So I'll be doing everything assuming 3 scum remaining (which I'm guessing is most likely to be 2 main and a traitor)

[Dragon of the West]

Okay well mech play is no longer to kill Gamma
D4: 8 2
D5: 6 2 (no-elim)
D6: 5 2 (eliminate gamma)
D7: 3 2 or 4 1, both winnable

Or if we hit scum today:
D4: 8 2
D5: 7 1
D6: 5 1 (eliminate gamma)
D7: win or 3 1 with clears.

I wish Dwlee didn't make me so paranoid. If you're going to no elim between D4 and D5, you no elim D4 because there's one less townie to accidentally mislim on D5. And I think he knows that but the default he goes to is to no lim D5, not D4

[Dragon of the West]

Okay well mech play is no longer to kill Gamma
D4: 8 2
D5: 6 2 (no-elim)
D6: 5 2 (eliminate gamma)
D7: 3 2 or 4 1, both winnable

Or if we hit scum today:
D4: 8 2
D5: 7 1
D6: 5 1 (eliminate gamma)
D7: win or 3 1 with clears.

With added context
D4: 7 - 3 (No lim); N4 - I die
D5: 6 - 3 (no conftown, mislim town); N5 - scum lims a gamma "conftown" or gamma
D6: 4 - 3 (no conftown if Gamma is still alive. If Gamma NKd, one conf non main scum, lim or lose)

[Dragon of the West]

I'm assuming you die tonight, which doesn't make it better for us to no elim D4 than D5.

I just don't think my one vote is more valuable than having one less town option to mislim. My reads have been hot SHITE lol

[Dragon of the West]

We aren't no limming today when you can provide thoughts on the lim you won't be able to tomorrow. We don't have one less option to mislim tomorrow from no limming today because you're already not an option.

Yo I'm fucking dumb thank you. Long week

[Dragon of the West]

Typically you want to give town at least amount of scum miselims before losing. This game wouldn't fit that with a traitor, right?

what was the game's starting size?

17

[Dragon of the West]

T3 is cleared of being main scum

Question for you, what made you pick T3 over the other 2 in your pool?

[Dragon of the West]

Now last large had 21 players and 6 scum (two traitors) so I think if there aren't 4 scum it would have to be 3 main scum + 2 traitors, not 4 scum + 1 traitor.

Meh, I feel like that's reading too much into the setup. 4 scum, 1 traitor is worse for town so that's what I'm assuming

[Dragon of the West]

Okay well mech play is no longer to kill Gamma
D4: 8 2
D5: 6 2 (no-elim)
D6: 5 2 (eliminate gamma)
D7: 3 2 or 4 1, both winnable

Or if we hit scum today:
D4: 8 2
D5: 7 1
D6: 5 1 (eliminate gamma)
D7: win or 3 1 with clears.

Okay so in both of these scenarios you have us eliminating gamma.

If Gamma is town:
-if we lim Gamma D4, you get 2 conftown on flip and lose one to NK. 2 remaining total conftown on D5, 6T v 2S.
- if Gamma lives to D6, you get a third result from them but that means we lost potential conftowns N4 and N5. 2 gamma results remain D6. If you mislim D4 and no lim D5, you have lim Gamma D6 and on D7 you have 1 conftown 3T v 2S.

So my question is, which game state would you rather have? 6T v 2S with 2 conftown? Or 3T v 2S with one conftown in ELO?

[Dragon of the West]

The odds of me being scum are "diminished"....because we reduced our claim? Not because DGB and I claimed mutual town informed and then they got NKd and flipped town informed?

Actually no I missed that claim. I try and read when I can but life has been busy for me so this has taken a back seat. Sorry.

And if you want to execute me by all means.

Tbh scum would be paying close enough attention to at least know who the conftown are so they can push actually viable mislims and be credible enough to sway wagons/votes. I think Gamma's misdirection when this happened to jump on Andre and call what he said a 'slip' is scum

[Dragon of the West]

shh

It might have been this one

This 'sh' as a joke about double voting Anya is nothing

[Dragon of the West]

Oh like a scum gunsmith to hunt for the vigilante babysitter thing? That's actually a good point.

I assume that Anya would also be picked up on. I wouldn't assume that the masons are.
Obviously this is just situational but to be considered.

Oh whatever I misread PT Cop for Gunsmith. Sue me. That’s not a slip I mean hahaha I might be unfocused but I’m not an idiot.

I don't believe that's a slip (partly because that would kinda implicate me) but I do think the fact you made that mistake is a pretty bad sign for you given you iirc had managed to figure out RLotus was a PR in mini 2213, so to make that sort of mistake seems so off-color for town!you

I also think you know exactly where the mistake is coming from. Since it’s literally your flipped role in a different game.

Based on claims the gunsmith would only be able to detect the vig and honestly this is a really believable mistake if that's the situation in another game. If Gamma flips gunsmith though by all means chuck Andres off a skyscraper

[Dragon of the West]

why does that have anything to do with THIS game?

I mean, I feel like that's obvious. You ever have a moment where your brain just makes a dumb mistake?

[Dragon of the West]

If you mislim D4 and no lim D5, you have lim Gamma D6 and on D7 you have 1 conftown 3T v 2S.

And this is assuming there's no traitor(s)...so like that plan could just put you in MELO D6 with no conf on gamma

[Dragon of the West]

@DotW, If you feel Gamma is the best elimination, why aren't you voting there?

I want to talk through all the mechanics before I place my vote. I don't want me being wrong about end of game mechanics do screw us over

[Dragon of the West]

Not seeing how eliminating gamma earlier is better if we can possibly get another conf out of him. Either gamma is evil and we kill him D4 or D6, or he is good and we miselim him later which grants us an extra long-term clear.

"Another conf" doesn't matter if scum can kill two confs in the meantime

[Dragon of the West]

3 masons

2 mason-lites

[Dragon of the West]

To summarize my thoughts here:
We have Gamma with a clear on two people. Either one of these is scum or none of them can be something except for traitors. This removes STD/T3/Gamma from today's lim.

DotW is cleared.

That leaves Titus/Chaos/Kyo/Me/Andres/VFP as a lim pool.

Assuming town!gamma, limming in there (gonna exclude myself from this) gives us a 2 in 5 chance of hitting scum. That's pretty good.

Assuming Gamma!scum, we lim him leaving us in MELO or day before MELO and also may have hit scum assuming Gamma didn't pick both all the scum as the clears.

I'll ultimately defer to DotW here I just feel like if we can eek an extra investigation out it'd be good.

If Gamma is scum and your setup assumptions are correct then (including you) it's either a 1 in 6 or 0 in 6 chance of hitting scum today because they could be lying about one of their clears if scum. If Gamma is town then it's 2 in 6. If we flip gamma and they're town, tomorrow we have 2 in 6 chance because 8 people are left with 2 conftown. So the worst case scenario of limming gamma today, which is they're town, and then following up tomorrow matches the best case scenario of limming outside of gamma, T3, STD today

[Dragon of the West]

If we think there are 3 scum alive or there's a good enough chance we should be killing gamma here today so we can just do that.

Pedit: except that the claim of babysitter vig isn't confirmable.

It is it you have a voyeur to see both actions happening to the same target

[Dragon of the West]

Lol that was

mostly

tongue in cheek

[Dragon of the West]

Tbh I'm gonna wait for VFP to be off VLA and let everyone catch up and give thoughts before settling on anything but I think I'd like to lim Gamma today

[Dragon of the West]

yes

Can you comment on the mechanics of being limmed or is it just "I'm town don't lim"

[Dragon of the West]

Okay so just to make sure I get my thoughts out in case there's a quick hammer:
I think even if Gamma flips red that STD and T3 are

probably

town because scum!gamma would want their claims to flip green if needed. I also think that Gamma's reasoning for choosing T3 over Titus and Andres is weak. Because of that if Gamma flips red Titus and Andres should be pushed along with Dwlee

[Dragon of the West]

If Gamma is group scum it's not completely WIFOM because the best play from scum would be to "investigate" town, say they aren't in a PT, and then scum can kill the conftown each night. That flips them green so gamma is confirmed to not be lying about them being town, but town also gains no tactical advantage because scum is NKing conftowns faster than Gamma can investigate them

[Dragon of the West]

Thanks for reminding me about chaos. Last night I thought of some of their posts that bothered me. One sec

[Dragon of the West]

UNVOTE: Andres

I think I need a reset too.

If I’m not dead by D6 then you can entertain yeeting me

This is where I'm at as well. Also, PT cop with functionally PT-less masons makes extremely little sense for scum to have, so I'm inclined to just call you mech-town.

Anya (7) : Titus - Dragon Of The West - DrippingGoofball - VFP - T3 - Gamma Emerald - Dwlee99 Execution

someone on this wagon is scum

I think you're right.

VOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: Gamma
If we make the assumptions that Gamma is town and wasn't killed because no scum were in his check pool, then there's 2 scum in me, Dwlee, VFP, and ssbm. If Gamma flips town, the lim needs to be in here. I know I'm town, and I have a strong town read on VFP, so if Dwlee and ssbm aren't the last 2 scum, it's likely Gamma is just scum here. It could be that Gamma is town and scum is (Andres or Titus) & one of the aforementioned 4, but they're still gambling there that Gamma doesn't hit them with his check.

This pinged me after the fact because they went from saying they wanted to lim Gamma D6 to voting them pretty quick but it's possible the mech talk just changed their mind. Their thought process reads like town to me though. I think if Gamma flips green Chaos should be looked at, and if Gamma flips red Dwlee should be looked at. Dwlee v Chaos interactions in general read TvS to me

[Dragon of the West]

So something outlandish came to me last night: on D1 when people were "crumbing" did anyone threaten to vig Anya?
If there's a traitor in the game and Kyo is scum, Kyo could've interpreted the neighbor claim as the traitor letting the scum faction know who they were. If someone threatened to vig Anya, would scum use the jailkeeper to protect Anya from the kill? It would have the effect of roleblocking them which is how we've interpreted it until now but it's main goal could've been to protect

[Dragon of the West]

If there's a traitor I think that points at Kyo

[Dragon of the West]

So something outlandish came to me last night: on D1 when people were "crumbing" did anyone threaten to vig Anya?
If there's a traitor in the game and Kyo is scum, Kyo could've interpreted the neighbor claim as the traitor letting the scum faction know who they were. If someone threatened to vig Anya, would scum use the jailkeeper to protect Anya from the kill? It would have the effect of roleblocking them which is how we've interpreted it until now but it's main goal could've been to protect

Good tinfoil.

I only use brand name tinfoil. Provides the best protection from cosmic mind control rays

[Dragon of the West]

I feel like people are going along with me too much/too easily. My reads this game have been garbage don't blindly follow me because I'm conftown

[Dragon of the West]

Alright well, let's get this over with then. VOTE: Gamma

L-1

[Dragon of the West]

ok now before i hammer who should i target?

assuming youre not full of shit, rathe

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: anya

I dont really need an answer, as I already have it.

anya!town doesnt say "they're trying to convince me now that they're a wolf and i should vote for them"

It comes off as knowing ssmb_kyko cant be a wolf. (trying to CONVINCE)

anya!town WOULD SAY "ssmb keeps saying they are a wolf."

this is a stretch and really it reeks of scum trying to justify jumping on a wagon

[Dragon of the West]

Okay so are we still going with killing rathe here. I'm gonna try to look for Rathe crumbing the PT cop result.

If you find something let me know. I combed through Rathe's ISO when gamma first claimed and found nothing

[Dragon of the West]

I'm cool with the convo and actually fleshing out reads which is 100x better than PoE but we should just decide on an appropriate lim for tomorrow based on how gamma flips today.
If Gamma green: Titus/chaos/someone else?
If Gamma red: Dwlee/Kyo/someone else?
You'll have 2 conf non mainscum if green flip.
There's just a situation where if Gamma is scum and you leave them til D6 it's too late, especially if this is a traitor game

[Dragon of the West]

Well that logic seemed to work for Gamma

[Dragon of the West]

Do you object to being killed.

yes

And you're about to avoid your lim

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: unvote

[Dragon of the West]

Didn't want a quick hammer while I was at work. I don't like Dwlee's flipflop on the Gamma slot and want to read through Dwlee's ISO for progression reads on Rathe/Gamma. Especially today's day phase...they resisted the mech lim on Gamma for a while, finally hopped on board, hopped off for the discussion about moving the lim to you or another slot, then hopped back on saying it doesn't feel like town!gamma. But that's the first time I recall Dwlee scumreading the slot

[Dragon of the West]

I'm still down to lim Gamma, I just want those "if they flip X then tomorrow we'll push Y" convos to happen before end of day phase

[Dragon of the West]

On the other hand: feel like we should have an investigative role here given the roleblocker that scum has.
UNVOTE:
I'm indecisive, can you tell?

We had 2 roles for the jailkeeper to block. One was pretty strong imo, the voyeur was weak but still investigative

[Dragon of the West]

I don't feel like you give the scum a jailkeeper to block a voyeur. Protecting against the vigilante thing makes some sense sure it just doesn't feel like it fits enough in here maybe. Maybe it's just Titus/Andre.

As jailkeeper you could either roleblock the vig/babysitter or you could jailkeep a scum teammate that you think the vig/babysitter will target and kill the vig/babysitter without your teammate dying. Both of those are strong options to have when the vig/babysitter is also vengeful so mislimming them is dangerous