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[DkKoba]

hi im the new VFP

[DkKoba]

VOTE: Andres

vibes

[DkKoba]

also not rereading anything except recent pages so glhf

someone give me a summary

[DkKoba]

oh kyouko is in this game? I can read that slot :3

[DkKoba]

oh ye theyre scum lmao
VOTE: kyouko

[DkKoba]

tacos

[DkKoba]

same exact vibe as that game is why

[DkKoba]

lack of complexity, etc.

[DkKoba]

where's the complexity

[DkKoba]

its in the thought process they are displaying when approaching the game. its very level 1 type of thinking where it looks nice and fluffy but its really like basic shit

[DkKoba]

how does chaos have so many votes lmao the way they talk is like so calm like either they have accepted a loss being acceptable and this is some last resort play or like - they're just town here.

[DkKoba]

am i just threadspewed clear town here yea?

[DkKoba]

kinda just feel weird that no one has mentioned my slot at all LMFAO

[DkKoba]

Your slot got into a gladiator 1v1 with a strong scum power role day one. The slot ended up replacing out but then died N2 and we figure you're pretty likely town for it.

ok thats pretty based

[DkKoba]

I don't like that VFP also had their top scumread as kyouko and their slot has been alive for so long actually I'm gonna reeval UNVOTE:

[DkKoba]

what was DGB informed of

[DkKoba]

oh right the best friends thing forgot

[DkKoba]

actually nvm it was consensus PoE by T3 and VFP and also the rest of the kills were PR im assuming were claimed

[DkKoba]

can someone tell me how consistent Gamma's participation levels have been this game, notably when scum have been pushed?

[DkKoba]

nah I just need to know that for gamma if he was alive during any flipped scum being alive.

[DkKoba]

VOTE: Gamma

Moreso meant their activity levels but that's NAGL to me at all

[DkKoba]

regardless *

[DkKoba]

DkKoba all I can say is I’m glad you’ve chosen THIS game to TRULY burn that tell. Because you’re dead wrong.

more interested in your explaination of your actions on the day titus was limmed and your thought processes around your actions wrt titus.

[DkKoba]

VOTE: Gamma

Moreso meant their activity levels but that's NAGL to me at all

Gamma is not the lim today. Agree that he might be scum, but he has results he can claim tomorrow and we're not in LiLo.

I ignore PR claims, I only look at dayplay. I will look at roles when it is crossreferenced with their dayplay primarily. (i.e. if they clear someone that would be extremely unlikely to clear as a scum)

[DkKoba]

Chaos can you explain why you think Dwlee is scum holistically, meaning like considering everything as a whole from their play?

I get the vibe they are town based on my experience with their slot in the past.

[DkKoba]

Dwlee, other than being on a CW to titus, why would you consider Chaos scum here?

[DkKoba]

Assuming of course they are trying to sort you in good faith - which I do believe because a late vote on a scum wagon is not exactly the best of looks when its a very solid wagon.

[DkKoba]

Dwlee I don't care how wrong you think Chaos is, they are blatantly town here.

sorry this is me lol, alt slip

[DkKoba]

I'm vetoing this wagon.

[DkKoba]

I'd rather no lim than get chaos.
Dragon, unvote.

[DkKoba]

DotW - off-brand mason w/ DGB
Gamma - odd-night PT cop
Chaos - VT
Dwlee - VT
ssbm - VT
StD - VT
VFP/DkKoba - ?
Andres - ?

Hey Koba, what's your role?

No.

[DkKoba]

I noticed that the site meta has changed over time.

It used to be that power roles were helpful to the town, and that claims helped solve the game. This is no longer true.

I just finished playing Sybil's Elegy which was a great example of the role distribution being designed to confuse at best, and F up at worse, the town. I have played others with similar anti-town mod shenanigans.

Here's the deal.

We should not claim, ever.

Treating the game as mountainous will increase our chances of winning.

What we should do (and I include vanilla townies) is to crumb our night choices somehow BEFORE the night. Vanilla townies must crumb fake targets.

When you're dead, and we know your role and alignment, we can go back and use the crumbs for the solve.

Solving games by way of RESULTS and CLAIMED ROLES will not work. It just doesn't work anymore.

DGB speaking wisdom as to why I don't care about claims ever ^

[DkKoba]

DotW - off-brand mason w/ DGB
Gamma - odd-night PT cop
Chaos - VT
Dwlee - VT
ssbm - VT
StD - VT
VFP/DkKoba - ?
Andres - ?

Hey Koba, what's your role?

No.

Just claim
VOTE: Koba

Why?

[DkKoba]

Do you think I'm scum?6

[DkKoba]

Don't care. I replaced in here as a favor to whatever alignment I rolled since its the endgame. I rolled town so I particularly don't care to appease people, especially since apparently my slot is fairly clear from interactions with scum!

[DkKoba]

If you take out Gamma's claim, what real reason is there to townread them?

Also of note mech wise : there is most certainly a traitor in the midst because there is no scum doc if gamma were to be real. There has been no evidence of one, and the other is at best questionable of existence so I do not believe Gamma's claim on a level of mechplay. Also odd-night is strictly much more powerful than even night. Their claim ~could~ exist, but there is also room for it to not exist. Ergo I am not taking their claim at all as clearing esp since we already have 2 best friends + a strong role that literally gets a guaranteed town powered shot. A gunsmith on the scum side to find the combined babysitter vig feels potentially likely. fwiw <<<<<-

so anyone clearing gamma based on mechs is ignoring the other side of the argument as well as their play around titus which stood out to me as someone trying their best to at first save them while distancing them.

[DkKoba]

Babysitter Enabler flipped uninformed so prob just that so yea

[DkKoba]

Enablers are usually informed - likely just shifted to imply different info.

[DkKoba]

Gunsmith doesn't help find traitor in a traitor game so why do you suspect gunsmith + traitor?

I said I suspected a scum GS to be purely to find this powerful town role without giving scum a rolecop so its ONLY able to counter that.

lol this is me SORRY i have 10000 tabs open

[DkKoba]

leaked 2 of my alts how amazing

[DkKoba]

Babysitter Enabler flipped uninformed so prob just that so yea

Enablers are usually informed - likely just shifted to imply different info.

What do you mean

An enabler is oftentimes informed of the role that they enable existing. Otherwise there is no guarantee.

[DkKoba]

Babysitter Enabler flipped uninformed so prob just that so yea

Enablers are usually informed - likely just shifted to imply different info.

What do you mean

An enabler is oftentimes informed of the role that they enable existing. Otherwise there is no guarantee.

No, they aren’t

Proof.

[DkKoba]

Oh nevermind. I crossreferenced wit hthe only normal game I did read with an enabler and it wasn't informed.

I played in a Jingle game that was utilizing normal guidelines and he made a mafia member an informed enabler and I thought that was standard lol

[DkKoba]

regardless yeah,

[DkKoba]

Enablers are usually informed - likely just shifted to imply different info.

The fuck?

why are u so shocked I said this tho when .. you were my scumbuddy that game

[DkKoba]

VOTE: kyouko

Im not claiming. If you think that's scummy ur honestly worse than the people new at this game no fucking cap

[DkKoba]

gamma/Kyouko are last 2 scum, dont care if i die here cuz thats the solve and dwlee likes to have theirb1 bad read every game that he tunnels

[DkKoba]

They tunnel*

[DkKoba]

I have no patience for people who push people on NAI garbage or shit that is just attacking their ego.
Grow up.

[DkKoba]

The only reason 1 might have reason to claim is an investigative on my slot and in that case, fuck you im townier, prove you are really that role by claiming the result first

[DkKoba]

sorry im like super frustrated bc even when logic is very blatantly showing im not scum i still need to prove myself like fuck cant i just be consensus town for once and not have to defend myself constantly

[DkKoba]

Chaos is literally a case of "just read the damn iso", my mans oozes thought complexity and it shows.

[DkKoba]

I dont townread either and i have a good track record of reading both players so that's why i say so

[DkKoba]

lack of complexity, etc.

where's the complexity

Chaos is literally a case of "just read the damn iso", my mans oozes thought complexity and it shows.

You have used the same buzzword three times
Mind explaining to the class what it has to do with anything?

The "buzzword' actually does mean something.

Certain players can be caught because when they roll scum they suddenly start simplifying how they read shit and it shows.

NDMath, for example, is one such player. But also it is in general well above rand for the vast majority of players to show complex thought process, where they are hollistically viewing the game and thus not being uncharitable towards others.

[DkKoba]

ya

[DkKoba]

I read Kyouko’s ISO - I’m not seeing why people think the slot is Scum.

Actually I take that back - votes wise, Kyouko’s history is not great.

I personally have caught Kyouko as scum on D1, so like catching her on day 5 on a fresh replacement is fairly trivial for me here.

Talk to me about dwlee, I personally have, after misreading them, read them well, but obviously have never rolled against scum them so I don't have a baseline, but I do feel they are town here on gut.

[DkKoba]

?

I trust andres because in general he is accurate... except when I roll scum against him >:) (although I do expect to get wrecked next time I do)

[DkKoba]

He carried my ass in my very first normal game

[DkKoba]

But no. We are checking Kyo.

You are far too opposed to being cleared for me to be comfortable with your slot. Check me for all I care.

I would be HAPPY being confirmed Town and not have to deal with the suspicion. I don’t like how hard you’re trying to direct the PT Cop.

I don't want you checked on the basis that you are exuding your town game very strongly here in a late stage of the game.

[DkKoba]

Chaos comes off as a player who doesn't bus and would actually unvote their partner and save them rather than let them live and also would kill a PT cop.

plus PT cop prob useless at this stage as we are prob dealing with 1 group scum 1 traitor or just 1 groupscum. so yep

[DkKoba]

(this is assuming that gamma is town though)

[DkKoba]

So you figure Dwlee/Kyouko is likely then?

[DkKoba]

We could no lim and just force a check between the 2 - gamma being nightkilled would just clear him too which eases my head

[DkKoba]

better to no lim earlier with a PT cop since guilties are more likely to be disabled the more scum are in the graveyard.

[DkKoba]

So you figure Dwlee/Kyouko is likely then?

Yeah I think the last Scum is between the two. I don’t see Chaos as Scum and everybody else is ruled out in my mind due to mechanics or play.

Cheers - I like this solve too when binning Gamma as town

[DkKoba]

plus PT cop prob useless at this stage as we are prob dealing with 1 group scum 1 traitor or just 1 groupscum. so yep

The remaining scum would still have a PT for results purposes though? How is that result useless?

1 scum PT returns green on a PT cop

[DkKoba]

Note that merely having access to a private topic is not necessarily enough to be able to communicate; there will have to be a second living player in the private topic in question to communicate with...

[DkKoba]

Oh wait I thought traffic analyst and PT cop were the same. Lmao. Nevermind then we can lim then.

[DkKoba]

VOTE: Dwlee99

[DkKoba]

Dwlee, are any of the actions Andres is accusing you of false, i.e. objective actions, stuff that is provable directly(like his claim of your vote placements and where they were etc.)?

[DkKoba]

Frankly I'm too lazy to verify but if Andres is telling the truth about those actions it looks really bad on you.

[DkKoba]

Did VFP townread Dwlee

[DkKoba]

ye VFP did which tracks with why this slot would be left alive

[DkKoba]

happy scumday andres also I am seeing what you are laying down with clarity even just based on what has been going on this dayphase.

[DkKoba]

Andres has infinitely more towncred than you, has provided evidence as to why Chaos is town. Your case on Chaos looks extremely laughable in comparison. Drop Chaos because there is no way they are scum.

[DkKoba]

i changed my mind nomnomnom seems town

i am posting just to post was overextended now work is kicking my ass and i'm trying not to get involved in the pedantic discussions this game because i don't quite find them interesting. my play, in short, is scummy and i'm often scumread for it but that's just kind of the way i play i guess.

@dwlee you really lost that game to tris i did fuck all and nearly got caught but i'm curious...is there anything about that game that makes you think i'm scum here or is your vote out of spite?

your play this game is _nothing_ like the last time we played together just a couple weeks ago. what changed?

was searching for something and found this, STD is clear forever

[DkKoba]

I have no doubt in my mind that both Chaos' current dayplay compared to the logic of their actions thus far this game as presented by other players is evidence enough that any case you might have is dubious at best.

[DkKoba]

Well then gamma wasted it because Osuka deadass spewed them town

[DkKoba]

You know, DGB is RARELY a choice for nightkill in games. You know what else is weird from DGB reads?

[DkKoba]

Dwlee is still scum for being persistently salty that people town read me instead of scumreading me as was his plan.

[DkKoba]

an inordinate amount of your posting has been focused solely on me. do you have reads on other players in the game?

I've been focusing on you because you're my strongest read so far. But a couple of my reads in no particular order:

Lean Town:

Titus - Scumhunting, scum wouldn't have a reason to make posts like 514 and 520
DGB - I agree DBG probably wouldn't put themselves out there and make that early game pos ti f they're mafia. Their follow-up posts seem to have real conviction, not like a mafia just doubling down for appearances. I don't think their early post alone warranted as much confidence in them as you seemed to immediately have, but I agree it's townie.
nom - I like their activity and thinking so far. sort of unrelated, but I also agree with them that we shouldn't be so eager to lynch a lurk spot without even trying to get them to be active first (through votes or otherwise)


Lean scum:
Peta - I didn't like how hard and fast you came out thinking Dwlee must've been scum for disagreeing with DGB's early post. That and the ensuing convo with Nero really seemed like you just going full offensive to deflect as much as possible. And I think your town read of DGB was too strong, too early for what they had posted (this is based on my memory of when you started seeming confident in your DGB read)
Kyouko - I feel like they haven't produced a lot of their own content. Mostly just quoting walls of text and then giving one line. I also don't like the dismissiveness about the pt and when asked questions
Rathe - This is mostly gut. Their early sheeping convos were weird to me

another guy who's been left alive that was defending dwlee

[DkKoba]

yes that's about what i was getting at - bogging things down in some boring "correct" argument is how i'd expect scum to approach someone coming out with a wacky plan to start the day - it's an easy point to make and offers basically nothing. i hit him with my vote for it and didn't like the response.

nero of course is dead set on trying to misconstrue that i was arguing that no one should claim at all in accordance with dgb, which is not what i was trying to say and i don't think someone making an honest reading could get that (except T3, but he's a special case)

If anything it feels like your vote should be towards Nero more than Dwlee.
With the above it just seems more that players like Dwlee and T3 are mis understanding your view while Nero is using this to push agenda.

I don't think Nero is, and I don't think that this scum read is strong enough to have had Dwlee in the lead votes at this point.
How does Dwlee town react to DGB's plan?

Also, what is the mod information / meta you have?
Assuming this relates to the information you were talking about?

i think both are scummy, i haven't seen anything from dwlee that felt like cause to unvote so i've kept my vote there

don't know dwlee, not going to imagine up some response to dgb that i would read as town because it suits my taste. i

could

see town seeing that post by dgb and arguing against it (i haven't raised that issue with everyone reacting negatively to it), it was a combination of how he chose to respond to it, which felt like he was arguing in a way to score points rather than advance the game + his reaction to my voting him, where he just clumsily pulled the "i know you are but what am i?" card to an early attack. didn't feel natural.

i'll get into the mod meta stuff in a bit, it deserves its own post

oh weird I wonder what happened the next night phase after peta was pushing this

[DkKoba]

Thanks andres, this game is easy once you start looking at all the evidence holistically

[DkKoba]

That's not a stated read lol

[DkKoba]

Plus anya flipped town so that statement is even more garbage to me to try to clear yourself from the NKA pointing a giant finger at you

[DkKoba]

It would have totally kept that read after Anya flipped town yeah

[DkKoba]

At the time DGB died instead of DotW I'm pretty sure DotW scumread me more than DGB did. Like what do you think you're doing pulling quotes from day ONE to explain a night three kill.

Pedit: Peta townread me on replace out...

Koba you are actually giving me the same exact vibes as Titus did when she was pushing Anya. There is NO WAY you believe any of what you just spewed.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJmW4gsvaVE[/youtube]

[DkKoba]

[DkKoba]

Yes, if that's true then what do you think DGB does after Anya confirms flips town. Your rebuttals mean nothing because Anya flipped before DGB.

[DkKoba]

And honestly maybe Anya is a scum voyeur or something stupid like that but is Gypyx that mean to us?

Wanna point out also that Titus' logic is making zero sense and she has just been death tunneling this Anya/kill neighbors thing. I know that she can do it as town, but the way she is going about it makes me feel super bad about her slot this game. Like "how could we ever trust her about the no result if she lied about neighbors" is such a terrible line of reasoning and feels made up.

Finally you realize that scum voyeurs can be a thing and that mods lately are designing and distributing roles to mess with the town's ability to solve the game rather than help it.

You death tunneled me so much that you barely noticed there were other players in the game. I don't get why you're complaining about Titus tunneling?

I'm pretty sure Titus is town.

hey now don't forget the next post though

[DkKoba]

Andres come back so I can laugh with you

[DkKoba]

Explain why you think DGB would think I am evil for Anya flipping town.

Explain why not

[DkKoba]

I'm assuming because of your push on DGB it was forced to claim ergo it was a clear that had a strong chance of flipping straight onto you.Can't have that now, eh?

[DkKoba]

Regardless this 1 point means nothing, you could have just killed it for being clear. Andres has several others and I agree with them.

[DkKoba]

People who FOS you die and people who don't stay alive and that's just the tea.

[DkKoba]

Andres I'm convinced you're not even reading my words...

I would venture to say you are correct and I only am for my own amusement

[DkKoba]

I mean even if you knock down my NKA theory you can't twist it the other way that it points to you town nor does it disprove literally everything else so lol

So... in essence? We vibing.

[DkKoba]

I'll just check maf chat post game and see if I was actually right

[DkKoba]

all I did was search 2 terms. i never ISO'd anyone.

Scum+Dwlee

[DkKoba]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php? ... sf=msgonly

[DkKoba]

well it was actually dwlee+scum but same result happens

[DkKoba]

I'll stay unclaimed so you can waste your time reaching for that as an argument so you keep looking silly until you get limmed today

[DkKoba]

What do you think I'm gonna do in a 4k post game?

Ofc I'm gonna pick out keywords to find key reads/statements from people and compare them to flips you're just howling

[DkKoba]

oh this is a 17 player game yah there's def no more scum lol

i thought this was 21p

[DkKoba]

Townslip gang

[DkKoba]

And to Koba, if you're town, you have no right to condescend to me about my town play after you faked a guilty on town and never rescinded. That we won that game had everything to do with 1.) T3 fucking up and 2.) Me pushing t3 to investigate Manatee who I thought was evil.

My only mistake with that play was not rescinding as soon as Seanzie declared intent. I have 0 regrets otherwise and it ended up manipulating the gamestate into a win.

[DkKoba]

Like holy shit that sequence was so fucking bad. Did VFP actually do that bus there?

Lmao I'm getting worried about that especially since they won't claim. They did drop the 1v1 and not go back there at all...

can u stop whining about me not claiming bc it doesn't matter LMAO

like if you can legitimately explain why it helps the gamestate I will do so. But I know you can't because I've been playing this game for years myself and know when claims are needed, and now isn't that time. Especially when my slot should be considered >>>>rand town

[DkKoba]

it doesn't defeat the purpose. you are saying "it defeats the purpose" because YOU DONT HAVE A REASON.

[DkKoba]

it hurts the gamestate because it causes ambiguity if scum should target me or not for a nightkill/PR actions.

[DkKoba]

it hurts the gamestate because it causes ambiguity if scum should target me or not for a nightkill/PR actions.

causes ambiguity as long as i'm unclaimed *


mafia 101

[DkKoba]

I guess if you're town we can have this convo in the dead thread

or we can policy you for using this as an excuse to ignore dayplay

[DkKoba]

like seriously if enough players here think its scummy that me not claiming is enough to be scumread you deserve to lose a mislim and I'll let it happen.

[DkKoba]

no. After having to suffer this garbage after actually HAVING CLAIMED I'm not bothering because people only ask for claims to either fish out info(scum) or appease their ego(bad town)

[DkKoba]

in my most recent game*

[DkKoba]

dw i dont have macho modifier you can doc save me safely

[DkKoba]

I think thats about all that is possibly useful to claim here

[DkKoba]

but ur scum

[DkKoba]

i cant even find ur case bc theres walls of posts of you justifying scummily acting around 3 flipped scum

[DkKoba]

andres case is cooler anyways

[DkKoba]

why chaos over kyouko fypov

[DkKoba]

andres laid it out, iso him

[DkKoba]

after actually

HAVING CLAIMED

If this is saying what I think it is, you were like 1 inch away from realizing why I asked you to claim but you want to be strongheaded and unhelpful to the point of blindness

My point was that my claim meant nothing to the gamestate and added 0 value. Maybe sometime i should write up a research paper on the subject that claiming is a dumb metric to read players except in more extreme cases

[DkKoba]

VOTE: Chaos
We got 3 lims and a potential 4th so i think this game is solved ya

[DkKoba]

Koba I'm okay with the vote (still want to talk to Andres though) but also like any thoughts on what I said for why chaos over Kyo? Do you just agree or?

?????

[DkKoba]

I guess if you're town we can have this convo in the dead thread

or we can policy you for using this as an excuse to ignore dayplay

are you drunk
DotW is conftown

oh if they're the other side of the best friend than my care to claim to them goes from 1% to 0% lmfao

[DkKoba]

Here are some Chaos quotes from D4

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

Okay fair enough

There isn't a strong reason to or not to when I'm clearly okay with yeeting her today.

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

Maybe you can explain it for me then. Why is Titus a good lim today?

Okay just wants to know

Nero night kill, defense of nom, pushing the "neighbors," at the beginning of the game pushing the me vs Peta TvT fight, all of the reasons Nero/Peta/Anya were pushing Titus day 1/2/3, play being uninspiring, townread on Osuka and Vax (vax may have fluctuated between null and town I think I need to check), early aligning with the "masons," there is a lot there on rereading parts of day one and two.

It's a shame that none of this was true D3 and you had to vote for Anya instead of Titus.

On a not snarky note, does Gamma not dying N3 affect your Titus read at all?

That first paragraph could cut through wood

Kyo is in 3 of those 4 pairs, and I feel like you haven't questioned her or posted anything negative about her at all. That seems really weird to me. Is Kyo your top scumread?

Trying to get me to vote Kyo because I had her in two of my pairings (which I could have if I was evil and didn't want Titus to go through but didn't.)

I'm starting to think it's just Andre / Titus or Andre / Gamma with Andre / Titus being the stronger scum pair. But that's only because I don't believe Titus didn't know it was a fake hammer. Even if that was some how true, its just not how Titus town responds.

Andres/Titus doesn't make sense given Gamma's check pool.

Agree with Titus that the lim should be Gamma today.

Rip

those first two actually look scummy because that's typically how I see scum try to feel out if a bus is called for

lol wait IT IS LMAO

[DkKoba]

no

[DkKoba]

Imagine faking a claim as towm

[DkKoba]

just vote, I wanna not have to focus for this game while I play through great ace attorney

[DkKoba]

VOTE: no lim

[DkKoba]

Precisely because scum left you alive.

[DkKoba]

Also lol dwlee imma be real i cant ever trust u again against my gut... too many misses, my gut is too stonk

[DkKoba]

Also lol dwlee imma be real i cant ever trust u again against my gut... too many misses, my gut is too stonk

gamma being alive is literally incriminating for his slot but ok LOL
If he checked andres im powerlimming the slot

[DkKoba]

If he checked std thats also a powerlim

[DkKoba]

Gamma and I are both alive because I (and Dwlee) wanted to mech lim the slot. That's an easy mislim for scum. Gamma's slot already checked STD before Gamma replaced in

mfw i townslipped even more LOL

[DkKoba]

also I'll narrow down my claim today - VT or BP.

that's all you get.

[DkKoba]

Also lol dwlee imma be real i cant ever trust u again against my gut... too many misses, my gut is too stonk

I really thought I had him but I also thought I had Zyla. At least when I tunnelled Peta I realized he was town eventually.

peta is obvious on d1, u just gotta see if he's bussing partners LOL

[DkKoba]

its either kyouko or gamma, if gamma didn't check kyouko that's pretty much throwing.

scum!gamma has to check dwlee here and try to win against me in limlo

[DkKoba]

VOTE: kyouko

finally

[DkKoba]

told yall kyouko scum smh

[DkKoba]

oh kyouko is in this game? I can read that slot :3

oh ye theyre scum lmao
VOTE: kyouko

never doubt the freshness of a replacein