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[ChaosOmega]

I read through the whole game last night, but got distracted and also my eyes glazed over reading all of this. I want to go back over the nom and VFP thing, but at first blush it reads as TvT.

VOTE: Dunnstral

There's been multiple lurkers this game, but Dunn has been active lurking the entire day posting essentially 0 content. Not crazy about Titus either, but I'm usually not in games we've played together, and the claim makes me less interested going that direction. T3 has pinged me, but he seems to be in a lot of people's town piles and we're close to deadline, so I'll table that for the time being.

[ChaosOmega]

why is it a TvT edition megachaos

VOTE: Chaos

VFP reads more as stubborn blockhead town than death tunneling scum, and nom's annoyance and replace out read as genuine frustrated town to me.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Chaos

DGB, can you enlighten me here. We're looking at only 2 posts to go off

Just a player who got demotivated when opening a red role PM.

From experience, these slots are often scum and get bus'sed because they are a liability to the scum team.

I wasn't demotivated after opening my role PM, I was sent my role asking for confirmation with my replacement announcement not posted in the game. I confirmed and asked if I had to wait to post. By the time it happened, I had started work for the day. I got demotivated trying to read through this entire game.

Anyways, looks like you guys are cool with letting Dunn do nothing and get away with it, so have fun with that. I'm VT.

[ChaosOmega]

I read through the whole game last night, but got distracted and also my eyes glazed over reading all of this. I want to go back over the nom and VFP thing, but at first blush it reads as TvT.

VOTE: Dunnstral

There's been multiple lurkers this game, but Dunn has been active lurking the entire day posting essentially 0 content. Not crazy about Titus either, but I'm usually not in games we've played together, and the claim makes me less interested going that direction. T3 has pinged me, but he seems to be in a lot of people's town piles and we're close to deadline, so I'll table that for the time being.

VOTE: choas

What about my post did you find scummy?

[ChaosOmega]

Anya - Null started town
T3 - Only became active after my vla, gtmh town
Save The Dragons - null

Derek12 - lean scum due to no posts

Dwlee99 - I felt they were scum at first, now I am iffy. Would flip for VCA but not strong.
Dragon of the West - Town
Rathe - Would compromise here
ssbm_Kyouko - hasn't done anything since hood discussion, null
Andresvmb - What I did see I liked

Dunnstral - I don't recall him negatively. He did have posts on my vla

nomnomnom, replacing LordEvan - Raging town
DrippingGoofball - Town
Titus - Town
Nero Cain - Needs a bullet to the head
VFP, replacing hugsandchocolate - Moderate town
osuka - moderate town
petapan - I felt his intro was super scummy but him standing up to Nero is super townie

Bolding mine. You seemed to be against Dunn's wagon before there was a wagon, why say it's bad now? Also, it reads as though you differentiate my slot with Dunn by saying that he had posted and it didn't strike you negatively. Was there anything about his posting that struck you positively? If not, explain the read difference between the 2 slots.

[ChaosOmega]

In general, if there's activity and nothing negative, I put the slot as town as the majority of players are town. I just don’t see a reason for a Dunn wagon.

Now that you're beetlejuicing and wagoned Dunn springs up.

So your baseline for activity is posting more than literally nothing?

I don't know what you're implying with the 2nd part. What is the relationship between my entrance to the game and the Dunn wagon? I mean, I voted for Dunn, so there's a connection in that respect, but it seems like there's something else you mean with this.

[ChaosOmega]

I read through the whole game last night, but got distracted and also my eyes glazed over reading all of this. I want to go back over the nom and VFP thing, but at first blush it reads as TvT.

VOTE: Dunnstral

There's been multiple lurkers this game, but Dunn has been active lurking the entire day posting essentially 0 content. Not crazy about Titus either, but I'm usually not in games we've played together, and the claim makes me less interested going that direction. T3 has pinged me, but he seems to be in a lot of people's town piles and we're close to deadline, so I'll table that for the time being.

VOTE: choas

What about my post did you find scummy?

The point about dunn. Like it was true but you triedto paint it as scummier than it actualy was

So to you, is Dunn posting in other games but avoiding this one NAI or suspicious, but not majorly so?

Also, what is your current read of peta?

[ChaosOmega]

is Dunn posting in other games but avoiding this one NAI or suspicious

so is andre

Good call, I overlooked that. I looked over Andre again from your mention of him in 1542 but didn't check other activity. I didn't get strong scum vibes from him in my initial read through because his defense of the nom slot seemed like a weird choice for scum to stick out their neck and make in that way, but I'm not really sold on it anymore.

happy to purge omega he ignored my read list request

Did I hurt your feelings? It should be pretty clear from my ISO who I'm scumreading, I have a couple town reads I don't feel the need to divulge, and a decent chunk of the game is still up in the air for me.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: T3

The progression from 1583 to 1612/1614/1615 reads as forced. You scumread me for my point about Dunn, but don't know enough about his posting history to be shocked about it and vote him to push the wagon across the line. With the later posts as context, 1583 reads more like scum jumping on my wagon than town trying to sort me and making a read.

---

Titus, any response to 1587? I'm more interested in the 2nd part.

[ChaosOmega]

Alright, I want to try to gauge your mindset here:

- After reading Dunn's ISO in 1612, is my 1489 less scummy, equally scummy, or more scummy?
- When you voted Dunn, was it a compromise vote to get an elimination through because he was the leading wagon, or did you scumread him from his low activity?

[ChaosOmega]

In general, if there's activity and nothing negative, I put the slot as town as the majority of players are town. I just don’t see a reason for a Dunn wagon.

Now that you're beetlejuicing and wagoned Dunn springs up.

So your baseline for activity is posting more than literally nothing?

I don't know what you're implying with the 2nd part. What is the relationship between my entrance to the game and the Dunn wagon? I mean, I voted for Dunn, so there's a connection in that respect, but it seems like there's something else you mean with this.

The Dunn wagon sprung up after you beetlejuiced.

My answer isn't going to change because you reask Omega.

Ok, let me ask a different way. Things can happen close together in a game and be unrelated. I am aware the Dunn wagon happened after I posted in the game initially because I can read and understand the passage of time. The way you're talking about them implies a causal link between the two. Go into how the two things are related and what that means.

---

T3: Who is your top scumread and why aren't you voting them?

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Titus

I'm cool with a Titus wagon if one would like to get off the ground. I was asked for a readlist before, I feel like I have enough of a handle on the game now to make one.

{peta, Dwlee, DotW, DGB}
{STD, rathe}
{Anya, VFP, Andres, Kyouko}
{osuka, Vax}
{T3, Titus}

I'm swamped at work, but I'll be in front of a computer if someone wants me to go into detail on any of these.

[ChaosOmega]

I was trying not to out that, but I didn't want town on the wrong path. Anya fmpov is most likely of the two to flip scum. Maybe they both are. I'm not buying the neighbors though.

Neither one is in danger, what is your concern about town being on the wrong path in reference to, and why does outing this help?

[ChaosOmega]

I disagree with your premise that masons and an all-town neighborhood can't coexist, and I see more pro-scum benefit from you bringing this up than pro-town, i.e., trying to figure out if DotW is an investigative or not.

[ChaosOmega]

Now this is kind of crazy but if we want to we could mech-yeet Titus to make Cyrus into just a vengeful vigilante and leash his kills.

I'm on board with this. I believe the claim mainly because it's a fucking batshit claim to make up. If the claim is true, vig makes him conf-town and gives us a 2nd kill until he's killed.

[ChaosOmega]

Yeah, vengeful would only trigger if you're eliminated via votes during the day and not a NK. In either case you would be dead and there would be an extra kill; in the case of vengeful triggering, mafia get to target whoever, but if we allow you to vig-shot, mafia is forced to NK you and town directs the other 2 kills.

[ChaosOmega]

Well, town doesn't direct both kills per se, our vote would need to be Titus. This is not a negative to me.

[ChaosOmega]

Titus wagon is dead, I'll make my vote useful.

VOTE: osuka

[ChaosOmega]

I looked through your ISO and I have 0 idea why you're voting Rathe. Why Rathe over Anya?

[ChaosOmega]

I looked through your ISO and I have 0 idea why you're voting Rathe. Why Rathe over Anya?

I presume you're asking T3.

Thought that was obvious, but yes.

[ChaosOmega]

I looked through your ISO and I have 0 idea why you're voting Rathe. Why Rathe over Anya?

modgames make sense with the Anya and cyrus claims.

Ok, way to answer without mentioning why Rathe is scummy at all. Is Rathe even a scumread for you or is your vote just a compromise vote and Rathe is the least town to you of the 3 wagons?

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Titus
E-2

[ChaosOmega]

ssbm, what do you think about Titus and Andres?

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Andres
E-2

[ChaosOmega]

POE is Rathe, STD, Anya, ChaosOmega and Andres.

Add ssbm remove Rathe and Andres and there's mine.

Why remove Andres? What has he done that makes you town-read him?

Also,

V/LA until Monday

.

[ChaosOmega]

So nothing he's done makes you town-read him, good to know.

[ChaosOmega]

I'm here! Responding to 2971, still working on it.

[ChaosOmega]

So nothing he's done makes you town-read him, good to know.

Well what makes you Scum Read me? Maybe talk me through how you’re seeing the game because honestly I find you null.

VFP has already gone into this a bit, but your push in 2817/2821/2823 that you're town because you voted osuka all day D1 is dumb. He was in 0 danger, and you avoided this game at the end of D1 while posting elsewhere. When osuka was actually eliminated on D2, you didn't vote for him because you town-read him. The leading counter wagon was Anya, which you disparaged in 1878 and then jumped on in 2315 to try and push through. Your tone in defending yourself today has shifted weirdly, you started with the osuka point earlier, got pushback, and switched to an AtE in 2830/2833. These two thought processes don't make sense to me together, showing how town you are because of your scum vote and woe is me, my reads are so bad. It looks like you're just trying to see what defense works best for you.

[ChaosOmega]

I would prefer the lim today is Titus, Andres, or to a lesser extent T3, my scumread there has weakened a bit. I would compromise on StD, DotW (depending on claims), or Kyo, but not super interested in these.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Titus
E-2

VOTE: Titus
E-2

If I can do it a third time I get a free snowcone.

[ChaosOmega]

Mod: Can we get a deadline extension while we wait for the replacement?

I'll switch my vote to StD if need be, this post is mainly a prod dodge.

[ChaosOmega]

Not really into an Anya elim. It would mean both big wagons D2 were on scum, and both flipped scum's jump onto Anya looks more like opportunism than bussing, Vax in particular.

[ChaosOmega]

Titus, Andres, or T3.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Titus

I'm cool with a Titus wagon if one would like to get off the ground. I was asked for a readlist before, I feel like I have enough of a handle on the game now to make one.

{peta, Dwlee, DotW, DGB}
{STD, rathe}
{Anya, VFP, Andres, Kyouko}
{osuka, Vax}
{T3, Titus}

I'm swamped at work, but I'll be in front of a computer if someone wants me to go into detail on any of these.

These reads are very good based on what we know. Am I wrong for being paranoid that you were too right here?

Are you asking me, or do you just want this thought in the front of people's minds? Don't know what useful info you hope to get from this question, if you're town, you should be paranoid of me, you don't know my alignment.

Titus, Andres, or T3.

*shakes head*

Oh no, my scumread disagrees with my scumread on them, whatever will I do?

[ChaosOmega]

T3, why switch wagons?

[ChaosOmega]

It's E-2 from the previous votecount, was someone not counted?

[ChaosOmega]

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Andres

[ChaosOmega]

UNVOTE: Andres

I think I need a reset too.

If I’m not dead by D6 then you can entertain yeeting me

This is where I'm at as well. Also, PT cop with functionally PT-less masons makes extremely little sense for scum to have, so I'm inclined to just call you mech-town.

Anya (7) : Titus - Dragon Of The West - DrippingGoofball - VFP - T3 - Gamma Emerald - Dwlee99 Execution

someone on this wagon is scum

I think you're right.

VOTE: Dwlee

[ChaosOmega]

This is where I'm at as well. Also, PT cop with functionally PT-less masons makes extremely little sense for scum to have, so I'm inclined to just call you mech-town.

Are you just assuming they're being honest about being a PT cop?

I am, I guess. I'm old, the last time I played here that wasn't a thing, so I thought it was a weird thing to fakeclaim. If the claim is truthful, then Rathe investigated StD N1 and then had the exchange with him from 2559 to 2562. 2559 makes sense with it saying he's ok, but 2561/2562 reads more like Rathe is trying to sort StD then having a result on him. I know not in a PT isn't a clear, but not scum should be way higher on your list than traitor.

[ChaosOmega]

Mini Normal 2214 - Dwlee town
Mini Normal 2216 - Dwlee scum

I wouldn't describe his town-play as aggressive, but he pushes things more and has actual reads, his scum play is very non-committal, which he is in this game as well.

[ChaosOmega]

Back to this game specifically, the most "non-committal" part of this game I think I had was day 2 when there was an Anya wagon. I hard defended her, then kind of aimlessly searched for a counterwagon. If you'll remember, I basically just went "Poe says Osuka dies" and then he flipped scum. If I was evil I could have acquiesced to an Anya wagon way earlier in that day and have avoided what was essentially a derp wagon on Osuka.

Instead, you acquiesced to an Anya wagon the next day after saying how sure you were that she was town. You make a post about Anya in 2220:

If she doesn't have a result pm tomorrow then by all means throw her out a window.

Now knowing she was blocked again and having a flipped scum compulsive JK, this reads a lot worse, like you were setting up the pivot to the mislim.

[ChaosOmega]

Why would I throw Osuka out a window and then try to pivot to Anya the next day if I'm evil? The only reason I had even ended up acquiescing to an Anya wagon is because 1.) STD had a clear claimed on him and 2.) The "masons" were calling for her head constantly.

Did you do anything to eliminate osuka other than literally be a vote on his wagon? I think I've read somewhere about scum jumping on when a partner is being eliminated to get towncred, I'll need to put my thinking cap on.

If the only two options were StD and Anya, this would be a good point, but they weren't, so it's not. And who gives a shit what DGB and DotW thought? Having them be "masons" means don't lim them, not trust their reads. All your conflict with DGB in the game doesn't make me feel like you trusted their reads regardless.

[ChaosOmega]

I literally started the Osuka wagon by going around asking people what they thought of Osuka's slot and if they'd be willing to vote there.

And then you jumped off when there was traction in 2663, waited 2 days, saw it was inevitable, jumped back on in 2738, and make a case in 2759, way past the point of mattering or trying to convince people since the lim went through less than 15 posts later in 2772.

[ChaosOmega]

Say Dwlee is scum, Chaos... who are they scum with? There's not many that they match up with.
Personally I think you're barking up the wrong tree with Dwlee though.

Kyo, Gamma, or Andres would be my guess, probably in that order for confidence.

[ChaosOmega]

I do also agree that Andres' post today come off weird, fine with the lim being there.

[ChaosOmega]

I'm not saying it's impossible there Gamma but like circumstances + my play style I just don't envision myself as scum derailing a town wagon to push through a scum.

I literally started the Osuka wagon by going around asking people what they thought of Osuka's slot and if they'd be willing to vote there.

And then you jumped off when there was traction in 2663, waited 2 days, saw it was inevitable, jumped back on in 2738, and make a case in 2759, way past the point of mattering or trying to convince people since the lim went through less than 15 posts later in 2772.

I didn't have the foresight to know that Osuka was going to flip scum, sorry? Also pretty sure my case finalized that Osuka was going to die there because at that point there were still people wanting to throw Anya off the roof instead, with DGB calling me a "townie with a broken scumdar."

Agree to disagree on all counts.

Say Dwlee is scum, Chaos... who are they scum with? There's not many that they match up with.
Personally I think you're barking up the wrong tree with Dwlee though.

Kyo, Gamma, or Andres would be my guess, probably in that order for confidence.

I don't think SSBM, otherwise Dwelee would have been more likely to push Anya I feel like (after they confirmed no hood).
Gamma plausible but still I'd only favour this after others.
Andre I don't think Dwlee has been against limming here?

It's why Andres is lowest on that list, he could think he's a liability if they're partners and try to get extra towncred out of it. Go into the SSBM part of this, not sure what you mean at first glance.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Gamma
If we make the assumptions that Gamma is town and wasn't killed because no scum were in his check pool, then there's 2 scum in me, Dwlee, VFP, and ssbm. If Gamma flips town, the lim needs to be in here. I know I'm town, and I have a strong town read on VFP, so if Dwlee and ssbm aren't the last 2 scum, it's likely Gamma is just scum here. It could be that Gamma is town and scum is (Andres or Titus) & one of the aforementioned 4, but they're still gambling there that Gamma doesn't hit them with his check.

[ChaosOmega]

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[ChaosOmega]

You know what else points to Kyo? Them not existing. Same reason chaos is probably evil.

I've made my case, no one else is interested. I exist in the game even if I don't post a million times, and posting that much doesn't make you town.

[ChaosOmega]

You know what else points to Kyo? Them not existing. Same reason chaos is probably evil.

I've made my case, no one else is interested. I exist in the game even if I don't post a million times, and posting that much doesn't make you town.

Scum would largely be demotivated here. If Gamma is scum, they have a hard path to victory. If Gamma is town, argubly their path is harder. So not seeing someone is a sign of a red PM.

Why are scum demotivated here? They just got a mislim through. If anything, I would think town is demotivated from the D3 lim waiting until the last minute with everyone not really wanting to do it and doing it anyway. And if Gamma's path is harder as town, would he be more demotivated than if he was scum? If so, why would not seeing someone mean a red PM?

[ChaosOmega]

You not dying makes me paranoid the pool is completely wrong.

I feel like that might point to chaosomega maybe

-----

dotw
VFP
T3 + STD
dwlee
kyouko
titus
chaos
andres

conftown, confident town, probtown via result, unconfident town, null, nullscum, scumread, hard scumread

Feels like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here. 2 of your top 3 scumreads were in your check pool, but because you didn't die, it makes me look scummy, although they still are scummy, but then if they are scum the pool isn't wrong, and now I'm dizzy.

[ChaosOmega]

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

[ChaosOmega]

I feel like Gamma is trying to add doubt and confusion to the mix her with T3 for the sake of doing it.

Agreed.

[ChaosOmega]

UNVOTE:
Well she fell for it enough to act like it was real and say she was town

I agree her response is more likely to come from scum here because she didn't do any "here are my reads" or town spew etc.

Pedit: thought he was voting Andres before unvoting?

Be careful Dwlee, don't want to give yourself whiplash changing your stances too quickly.

[ChaosOmega]

So your 3863 unvoting her is saying likely scum reaction?

[ChaosOmega]

She was at E-2, no real danger of a quick lim. His pivot after your post VFP looks like trying to cater to you. If you would have said it made Titus look town Dwlee would agree with that as well.

[ChaosOmega]

Now knowing she's at E-3 and thinking her reaction is more likely from scum, why not re-vote her?

[ChaosOmega]

There isn't a strong reason to or not to when I'm clearly okay with yeeting her today.

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

Maybe you can explain it for me then. Why is Titus a good lim today?

[ChaosOmega]

Nero night kill, defense of nom, pushing the "neighbors," at the beginning of the game pushing the me vs Peta TvT fight, all of the reasons Nero/Peta/Anya were pushing Titus day 1/2/3, play being uninspiring, townread on Osuka and Vax (vax may have fluctuated between null and town I think I need to check), early aligning with the "masons," there is a lot there on rereading parts of day one and two.

It's a shame that none of this was true D3 and you had to vote for Anya instead of Titus.

On a not snarky note, does Gamma not dying N3 affect your Titus read at all?

[ChaosOmega]

Kyo is in 3 of those 4 pairs, and I feel like you haven't questioned her or posted anything negative about her at all. That seems really weird to me. Is Kyo your top scumread?

[ChaosOmega]

I'm starting to think it's just Andre / Titus or Andre / Gamma with Andre / Titus being the stronger scum pair. But that's only because I don't believe Titus didn't know it was a fake hammer. Even if that was some how true, its just not how Titus town responds.

Andres/Titus doesn't make sense given Gamma's check pool.

Agree with Titus that the lim should be Gamma today.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: SSBM

Lim today should be me or SSBM, Gamma checks the other one tonight, and go from there.

[ChaosOmega]

With 17 to start, it's almost impossible there's 2 scum left. And if scum wouldn't bus their partner yesterday, why would they do it Day 3 with the same amount of scum left?

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: SSBM

Lim today should be me or SSBM, Gamma checks the other one tonight, and go from there.

This is a pretty terrible vote. If you are going to make this the choice, you’re going to die.

And if I gave a shit about your opinion, that would mean something to me. I am a prime mislim candidate now, being eliminated before I get to LiLo is not the worst thing in the world.

And if scum wouldn't bus their partner yesterday, why would they do it Day 3 with the same amount of scum left?

Is this in reference to you voting Titus D3?

Yes.

[ChaosOmega]

If you're going to be abrasive for no good reason, you could at least vote me.

And there's not a lot of players for me to focus on that make sense here. DotW is conftown, StD is essentially conftown, I find it very unlikely you're scum given you would have both been in Gamma's check pool and didn't NK him, it makes no sense to look at Gamma today since he has a pending investigation, and I don't think VFP is scum at all. That leaves Dwlee, who I can't really get any support on (and also the way they pushed Titus yesterday makes me feel a bit better about them) and ssbm.

[ChaosOmega]

That leaves Dwlee, who I can't really get any support on

Why do you presume this to be the case? You haven’t even asked anyone what their opinions are on the slot.

I assumed this from pushing Dwlee yesterday and getting no support for it.

[ChaosOmega]

UNVOTE: ssbm

I'm confused why scum killed t3 of all people. Like, even if the PT cop cleared the slot wouldn't killing DotW be better there?

It makes sense if you're the last scum. T3 is essentially confirmed, he would need to be a NK anyway, and DotW gets to stay in, and he said he was interested in pushing me or ssbm on a red Titus flip.

Andres why are you back now after basically never posting for a while?

"Andres, stop talking, I want you to be one of my mislims."

[ChaosOmega]

Dwlee, do you think scum are not allowed to throw shade on each other? I don't understand how these early posts you're quoting are indicative of them trying to push a mislim on you.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Titus

I'm cool with a Titus wagon if one would like to get off the ground. I was asked for a readlist before, I feel like I have enough of a handle on the game now to make one.

{peta, Dwlee, DotW, DGB}
{STD, rathe}
{Anya, VFP, Andres, Kyouko}
{osuka, Vax}
{T3, Titus}

I'm swamped at work, but I'll be in front of a computer if someone wants me to go into detail on any of these.

This reads list is the one that felt TMI to me. Idk many people who just name 3 scum in the bottom four in the middle of day two.

Pedit: Kyo then you I think.

Ok, but why would I as scum just try to blow up my whole fucking team day 2. I'm lazy, I'm not out here trying to turbo bus my whole team for towncred and win by myself.

[ChaosOmega]

They weren't just throwing shade on me, they were voting me and trying to get me killed. Titus especially was going hard into getting me killed early day one by playing into Peta vs me and buddying Nero. Nom's posts could be classified as shade but are also just stupid stuff trying to make me lose credibility and have people scumread me.

I also very much disagree with your point about Titus going hard into getting you killed. Here are a bunch of quotes from her interacting with your slot D1 for context. Note the lack of real pressure after page 3:

I like DGB's plan. It prevents scum from fake claiming roles later on as the targets wouldn't match. This should only be done until a person is forced to claim. I would modify it though to claim multiple targets so scum can't deduce who is possibly doctor protected. It limits some ability to solve and catch fake claims but it will keep our PRs alive.

For instance if there's an obvtown/IC and everyone crumbs them as one of their options, scum will infer that person was protected. Then if scum shoot a cop, we can ignore all their obvtown crumbs and get their results anyway.

VOTE: Dwelee

Titus, are you proposing everyone just claims who they would target with their night action openly?

A pool of two or three should be crumbed. I'm horrible at crumbing so it might turn out to be a straight up claim.

Nero's opposition, although I disagree with it, feels townier. Dwlee99 feels more desperate.

@peta/Nero, I largely feel Dwlee was scum that didn't know how to react as well. It almost feels like Dwlee is going to rely on a claim to get him through given the strong playerlist.

he's just scum thats stringing us along "guys don't kill me, I have important information to give." but he's not worried about getting nighkilled b4 he can out

i'll be explaining it day 1, lmao at trying to make this argument (it's not related to my role, for the record)

How can you have important information that you're not releasing if it's not role related?

VOTE: peta

i think it happens a lot that people who talk more early r more likely town

especially ones who get into big discussions

Titus did you start townreading me or just start scumreading peta more?

Rathe I feel like you're evil.

Scumreading peta more. I'm in a state of conflict with you two. I am scumreading you both yet you both shouldn't be scum together. So that means I am wrong somewhere. Having wagons on you both lets me assess you both at the same time.

@Dwlee, Anything's possible. I'm going to play with my reads as they are and assess new data when it comes in.

Dwlee do you think everyone voting you is scum? Why change your vote?

I have thoughts on nom but I'll wait for people on the wagon to respond because I assume that is who you'd like to hear from.

First, yes. Then I would like to hear from you since you have thoughts. Thanks for the respect.

Anya - Null started town
T3 - Only became active after my vla, gtmh town
Save The Dragons - null
Derek12 - lean scum due to no posts
Dwlee99 - I felt they were scum at first, now I am iffy. Would flip for VCA but not strong.
Dragon of the West - Town
Rathe - Would compromise here
ssbm_Kyouko - hasn't done anything since hood discussion, null
Andresvmb - What I did see I liked
Dunnstral - I don't recall him negatively. He did have posts on my vla
nomnomnom, replacing LordEvan - Raging town
DrippingGoofball - Town
Titus - Town
Nero Cain - Needs a bullet to the head
VFP, replacing hugsandchocolate - Moderate town
osuka - moderate town
petapan - I felt his intro was super scummy but him standing up to Nero is super townie

@Dwlee, I didn't expect people to claim vig crumbs as it's something not usually crumbed. It's usually claimed or crumbed after the fact. If people didn't crumb vig, finding a babysitter would still be impossible. :/ Arguably, it still is given a babysitter can act as a vig or protector. It's an odd role.

VOTE: chaos

If Nero's not going to happen, this is ok.

[ChaosOmega]

Can we gather what current claims have been made, I can't remember offhand what they all are.

Chaos - VT
DotW - off-brand mason w/ DGB
Gamma - odd-night PT cop

It might make sense to massclaim at this point, but first want to know what claims are so far.

[ChaosOmega]

DotW - off-brand mason w/ DGB
Gamma - odd-night PT cop
Chaos - VT
Dwlee - VT
ssbm - VT
StD - VT
VFP/DkKoba - ?
Andres - ?

-----

I'm seeing a lot of mixed considerations about whether people think there's a traitor or not. How we feel about the chances of there being a traitor changes what we do today so I want someone to talk me through why they think there is or isn't a traitor

13:4 is standard, giving scum a traitor here as well would imply that town has some decent power to counteract that, but it doesn't appear that's the case from the flipped roles, even assuming that Gamma is town. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would find it very unlikely, pretty sure we're at 7:1 here.

[ChaosOmega]

13:4 is standard, giving scum a traitor here as well would imply that town has some decent power to counteract that, but it doesn't appear that's the case from the flipped roles, even assuming that Gamma is town. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would find it very unlikely, pretty sure we're at 7:1 here.

I would consider the vengeful combined babysitter vigilante to be a preeeeettyyyy powerful role...especially with the babysitter enabler flipping scum, that makes the game more swingy in town's favor

Disagree on the power of the role, but that's not super important to discuss.

What is your current read on Dwlee?

[ChaosOmega]

I was very skeptical of Dwlee for days but honestly I don't think scum!Dwlee pushes against the gamma wagon for so long just to see the wagon turn to scum!Titus and get on board with it. I wasn't letting his Osuka vote carry any wait because that could've been bussing on a goon for the first scum lim of the game but at this point I don't think he's scum. Also, I was trying to trust VFPs reads more as the game went on and he was pretty adamant about Dwlee being town

The wagon on Titus was inevitable when they switched on, after trying to soft-defend Titus:

Titus I can totally see you being town here especially given the FIA WRC game that just ended I'm just like, confused kind of. And my biggest fear here is that the reason I keep getting into these mental ruts is a false assumption on my town reads.

Here's some of my thought processes about how the game:

I start by assuming two scum with or without a traitor as a rhurd member. Looking at interactions throughout the game I get the vibe that Andre/Titus are not a team and something made me think Chaos/Titus aren't a team although I forget what led me to that conclusion. StD/T3 can't be main scum unless gamma is bsing us, but Rathe's interactions with nom and osuka are good. Like maybe too good where it's bussing but I feel like Rathe presented solid reasons for scumreads on both slots and pushed them with some frequency. There is a point around page 30 where VFP questions whether Rathe's push on nom there is distancing, but I like Rathe's pushes.

I think VFP is town for his pushes on nom early and that entire interaction.

DotW duh.

Okay so who does that leave me with?

It leaves me with Titus, Andres, Chaos, and Kyo. Assuming what I read into partner interactions is correct (no Titus/Andre and no Titus/Chaos)

then I'm really left with 2 of {Andres, Chaos, Kyo} or {Titus, Kyo}. Are there any parts of my analysis that don't hold up?

Pedit: I'll respond to that soon™

Kyo is like... PoE material. She had the thing with Anya and was defending Anya and I thought she was town for a while in relation to that. A lot of the game I will admit I wasn't trying to sort her because I thought her and Anya were masons so I kind of have head empty on that. I was just thinking about how maybe Kyo makes sense as an elimination here cause if my pairings are right it literally solves the game. That's a big if though.

I could totally see the traitor universe existing where Kyo knows 1.) I have a traitor and 2.) Someone just lied about being in a neighborhood with me and thinks "this is my traitor" leading to all of the things that happened.

Based on where I'm at that would leave STD/T3 as the actual traitor with me leaning towards StD because now that I think about it,

"Titus complained about this thing I did but not Osuka" is a way to plant an associative between Titus and Osuka if STD knows that Osuka is scum.

Bolding mine.

titus is just scum here

titus is just scum here

+1

Who does she make sense as partners with?

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Gamma

Moreso meant their activity levels but that's NAGL to me at all

Gamma is not the lim today. Agree that he might be scum, but he has results he can claim tomorrow and we're not in LiLo.

[ChaosOmega]

I was voting Titus even though you gave me an out to vote Kyo instead and try to push that if I wanted to.

I'm saying you jumped on when the wagon was inevitable. I know you could have voted other people, but you get towncred if you're on her lim. You kept trying to find a way to move the wagon away from her though with the posts I quoted.

[ChaosOmega]

Kyo -> Check Chaos/Andres -> Lim Gamma -> Lim Chaos/Andres depending on Gamma check.

Based on last night I'm actually assuming STD will be the kill tonight but them or DotW being killed isn't actually a mechanical difference.
I've adopted the opinion that 12 v 5 doesn't make sense traitor or not given minis are 10 v 3. You don't give town two players AND give scum two. It doesn't make sense for balance.

Also this is wrong. Andres is not in the check pool for Gamma. I know you're desperately trying to keep him as a mislim option, but no.

[ChaosOmega]

You keep trying to play both sides of the fence with Andres, saying you're town reading him but still throwing shade on his slot:

Andres why are you back now after basically never posting for a while?

T3 was literally doing nothing I wouldn't kill him.

I'm asking because Andres has this sudden burst of energy that feels weird. Like "oh shit I have to play now cause it's just me."

Well it's not so good job. I was townreading you end of yesterday and that hasn't changed, it's just that after seeing you hard lurk it's weird.

Andres find the evildoer thanks. Be Nero pt 2

That or Andres realistically.

What are the chances that you think Titus and Andres are the last 2 scum, Gamma claims they're going to investigate in {Titus, Andres, T3}, and they decide to chance it and hope he checks T3 instead of just killing him? If you think the chances are decent, I disagree with you wholeheartedly. If you don't think it's likely at all, I don't understand keeping Andres in the PoE pool.

[ChaosOmega]

Chaos can you explain why you think Dwlee is scum holistically, meaning like considering everything as a whole from their play?

I get the vibe they are town based on my experience with their slot in the past.

He gives off defensive vibes trying to justify his play and why he's not scum, he's very wishy-washy on his reads and there's no real conviction, he tries justifying a lot as PoE, and then will waffle back and forth forever, a lot of his arguments are true on a surface level but to me don't hold up to scrutiny (e.g., taking credit for the lims on osuka and Titus because he voted them at the end and ignoring his multiple posts for each beforehand trying to derail the wagons saying that it's natural town thought progression).

[ChaosOmega]

Weird, it's like if you post 8000 things and don't have a backbone and stick to anything, you can find good quotes that you said for any situation.

[ChaosOmega]

Your posts happened earlier in the day, my quotes with you were later, when you were trying to defuse the wagon and failed.

[ChaosOmega]

You were the first real voice talking about killing Titus? Absolute nonsense. There was a giant wagon on her D3 that you decided to ignore to vote for Anya who you swore was town.

[ChaosOmega]

You're creating intent where there isn't any. I wasn't "trying to defuse the wagon," I was figuring out my read.
VOTE: Chaos
I can't remember if I'm voting here already. This push isn't good faith.

Pedit: I was the one bringing it up D4. Did you even bother reading the posts I quoted or any of the context? STD was just sitting on the wagon, sure, but he wasn't casing Titus or doing anything to push her elimination. And then when Gamma is at E-1 and it seems like he is gonna be hammered I unvote and case Titus.

And here's what you posted right after that:

Okay so are we still going with killing rathe here. I'm gonna try to look for Rathe crumbing the PT cop result.

Doesn't seen like you felt really strong about that Titus push, you wanted to jump off of it immediately.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Dwlee

[ChaosOmega]

And the unvote on Osuka was because 1.) No one was willing to listen to me except for VFP!slot (thanks if you're spectating btw) and 2.) Cyrus was talking about killing me with the babysitter shot. Like in that game state the "masons" were both pushing Anya, calling me her scum buddy, then Cyrus replaced into one of my biggest town reads and then promptly decided to go "yes I am this babysitter vigilante abomination" and threatened to use it on me.

Osuka was at L-2 when you jumped off, you can't say with a straight face no one was listening to you about it, there was numerous support for it, you jumped off to try and kill the momentum.

[ChaosOmega]

So why unvote? Because your feelings got hurt and you thought Cyrus was going to target you? Don't see how those correlate.

[ChaosOmega]

Again, this doesn't correlate. You thought you made progress on getting the lim onto osuka from Anya, and then Cyrus said he's going to target you. So you said fuck it, I'm going to now unvote to undo what I thought was right because I'm bummed that I'm going to die. Did you want Anya to die after the Cyrus thing?

[ChaosOmega]

Looks like I'm at L-1. Gamma, check Dwlee tonight. If he comes back clean, lim ssbm and go from there. If Gamma gets NK'd, you should lim Dwlee, but you're not going to. Just don't listen to them and lim Andres. Dwlee needs a 3rd mislim to win, they have 1 with me and another with ssbm, but Dwlee is next in the PoE, not Andres or DkKoba.

[ChaosOmega]

Weird, the last scum doesn't want to be checked by the PT cop. I'm more than happy to be checked if we lim not me today.

[ChaosOmega]

Does anyone else see how fake this sounds? He doesn't want to be cleared so there's a reason he keeps surviving the NK.

[ChaosOmega]

It would not be stopping a clear. Assuming you're not scum, we currently have 2 confirmed not group scum (StD/DotW). We would get a third clear tonight, but them scum could kill one of the clears, leaving us still at 2. If you're NK'd and targeted for a clear, we don't get a new result, but we still have 2 clears, the same as the other way.

[ChaosOmega]

What do you want me to respond to? So far it's me making points against you and you going nuh-uh.

[ChaosOmega]

Nope, I'm clearly just scum not answering you on purpose. I'm also so bad as scum that I would leave Gamma alive to clear people and not just kill him N3, because if he dies, I can just coast pushing T3, Andres, getting town cred on Titus, manipulating StD since he's barely paying attention to this game it seems like, instead of flipping my push to target you with no support while not being on my supposed partner's lim and looking like dogshit. I don't know why you're just solidly townread because you post a million times. If I was scum who played this bad up to this point and got myself here, I would have self-hammered already, I have no way to win this.

[ChaosOmega]

Koba shouldn't claim, this is just something to act like you're talking about something important while keeping the game state the same and making my lim inevitable.

If you're going to ask why they shouldn't claim, they don't have results that would end the game or they would have claimed already. In which case, no reason to give the scum more information, their role being unknown is not hurting town right now at all.

[ChaosOmega]

DotW, come out of Dwlee's pocket for air and let's talk a minute.

Think about why T3 was killed over you:

I'm confused why scum killed t3 of all people. Like, even if the PT cop cleared the slot wouldn't killing DotW be better there?

I agree with this. In a vacuum, you're conftown and he's guaranteed not group-scum but could possibly be traitor. From that, it makes sense that you would be the NK. You were kept alive for a reason. You said this at the end of D4:

Who does she make sense as partners with?

Chaos or Kyo

You're confirmed to be town, it's not surprising that you would be the NK. If one of me or ssbm is the last scum, there's no reason you're not killed here. You're expected to die after DGB flips, it would be easy enough to play off you were killed because of that and not due to your reads. But you weren't killed. Since you trust Dwlee so much, here's a quote from him:

T3 was literally doing nothing I wouldn't kill him.

Disagree with the 2nd part (which we'll get to), but I tend to agree with the first. He was really doing nothing but sheeping wagons. I don't think T3 was killed because he was on to something, I think he was killed to keep you alive since your reads are so wrong. You should be having alarm bells going off in your head and re-evaluating your positions, since if you were close to being on the right track here, you would not be alive for me to have this convo with.

[ChaosOmega]

Also just to comment on people scumreading me I feel like my interactions with flipped scum are very indicative of my alignment:
1.) Titus pushed me in the Me/Peta 1v1
2.) Nero caught nom trying to push me for terrible reasons
3.) I took VFP's side in the VFP/Nom 1v1
4.) I pushed through the elimination on Osuka over Anya
5.) While scum doubted Cyrus' claim, I believed it and not only said he was definitely town, suggested policy eliminating Titus to turn Cyrus into a vigilante
6.) Killed Titus yesterday over looking to eliminate Gamma

1.)
Bullshit. This is Titus from page 7:

Titus did you start townreading me or just start scumreading peta more?

Scumreading peta more. I'm in a state of conflict with you two. I am scumreading you both yet you both shouldn't be scum together. So that means I am wrong somewhere. Having wagons on you both lets me assess you both at the same time.

You might think it's dumb that I'm quoting something all the way back from page 7, but ask Dwlee for evidence to support their point. I go over Titus' posts with Dwlee in 4055 if you want more context.

2.)
Assuming this is what you're referring to:

btw

@nom

what does DW voting rathe mean?

As I see it he's more than happy to push another wagon instead of pursuing the 1v1, either out of genuine interest for pushing rathe or because he's trying to go away from that 1v1, which scum!dw would be happy to do in that position

LMFAO!

You sat there and argued you need to see if they (DW and t3) would vote Rathe after calling Rathe scum and your take away is that he's scum b/c he joined another wagon. What would it mean if DW didn't vote Rthe?

Not sure why this makes you so town. Let's add the additional context where Nero says this makes nom scummy and then you defend nom and try to pivot to Rathe:

I think that nomnomnom got literally nothing out of me voting for Rathe. Hence the "Dwlee could have done it as town or scum for different reasons :thonk:"

????

i think nom is just scum and his whole "i need to see if DW/t3 vote rathe!" was scum that was trying to look busy and then calling you scum when you voted Rathe like he wanted you to do feels like a pre-planned response. I don't think he ever had good intentions here.

"either of out of genuine interest" (town!Dwlee) or
"because he's trying to go out of the 1v1" (scum!Dwlee)
415 is functionally saying nothing.

I think if it was preplanned like that he would have tried to push me for it sooner instead of waiting for you to ask about it.

idk man, it's like your wagon is dying and if nom wanted to push your wagon he'd have to stick his neck out and I'm not sure he'd do that

But then what even is the plan you're suggesting? He made a plan to call me scum when he didn't want to do it? 415 isn't even calling me scum, it's functionally saying he got nothing out of it.

he gave a nice clean fence sitty response and it makes it seem like he never really had a purpose to see if you and t3 voted rathe.

I'm saying it's scum busy work. He made a big hubbub about wanting to see if you'd vote Rathe and when you do vote Rathe its either b/c you were genuine or you were trying to get out of a 1v1 that you were winning anyways and it just falls flat to me. There's no conclusion and I don't think there was any purpose to it other than maybe breaking up the peta wagon.

So you think he is a possible buddy for peta? What if rathe is evil though and we get him?

On another note wrt the neighborhood, I don't think we should touch the neighborhood for now.

3.)
Oops all quotes!

Like I reread your post a few times and I'm not even sure what you're accusing me of lol
The thing I noticed with this whole dw/peta thing when rereading is that it feels like a lot of slots are cruising by using that interaction and I'm starting to go with the theory that dw/peta was TvT and the scum must be elsewhere
I just think there are higher chances for both of them to be town especially seeing how they handled all of their interactions
There are much more suspicious ISOs in there, and slots that deserve more scrutiny

You compare me practically not pushing T3 and deciding from a conversation directly to T3, to you voting, pushing and having Dwlee as scum. When you're voted up for it, you suddenly re read and just soft town. You were pushing Dwlee as scum, You changed from scum to town on the SAME posts Dwlee made. There's a huge difference.

I first thought DW could be scum because of how he handled his situation with peta and nero, got some tunnel vibes into peta + trying to pocket nero by asking him a bunch of questions since nero was/is the most adamant peta poster, I got that impression when he joined on Nero's weirdo logic to try and discredit me so I thought the slot was somewhat scummy and trying to strengthen his position in the game.
When rereading I saw that dw had some thoughts about other things in this game (some player movements, some reads, etc) so yeah, despite the insistence on going hard on peta there is content out there that points to town!dw. I thought a bit about the wider scope of this game and since this is a large where scum can easily cruise by (and I suspect that's what's happening) it's probably more likely that scums are trying to leverage the dw/peta situation (I believe peta is town too) and hide that way, which points to a bunch of different people, two of these people being T3 and std who have both voted there and whose isos, as I pointed out, are clearly fishy.
Does that answer your question?

Not really. That wasn't really detailed but more so posting words together.
There's nothing in this other than you tunneled, you re read and saw you were wrong, scum is T3 / STD.
You also focused more on the scum read than the town read, when originally you implied a town read was the part to explain. Thus still makes your town read plus this reasoning to be fake.

You know what, I just lost a game to STD so I wanna see where this goes
VOTE: STD

(Seems unrelated, but Dwlee looks to be trying to derail pressure off of nom here with this vote right after VFP/nom exchange, and nom is voting StD as well at this point.)

Ironically STD is also a pretty safe vote. I mean, minimalistic playstyles are pretty easy to scum read. I'll give you that STD hasn't been as active as he was last game and his explanation is likely true regardless of alignment. So not a huge fan of 702.

Derek12-saves a replace
Andresvmb-lurking and useless
Dunnstral-lurking and useless
nomnomnom-WTF posting and scummy
Titus-lurking and scummy
petapan-bad and scummy
Dragon of the West-a lil' scummy


I'd be ok lynching any of these slots

lol

VOTE: nom

Nero can you pick a different person from your list to vote? Not feeling this one.

Dwlee - if you're ignoring the neighbors, give a few specific players you're looking to push.

One of the lurkers I think is our best bet. There are enough of them that I wouldn't be surprised if most of the game has just been town yelling at each other.

can you get specific as to who you see as lurking, just curious

Save The Dragons -more active but kind of lurkingish
Derek12
Andresvmb
Dunnstral

Okay on second thought maybe there aren't quite enough of them but if we buy Nero's "titus is active lurking" claim then there are a lot of them.

what are your thoughts on Titus and why did you never give your thoughts on nom?

I think the thing about Titus active lurking is kinda meh and I don't like the pre-flip associatives otherwise. I likewise just don't feel strongly on the nom stuff. Nom's posting feels good enough to me on a tonal read

If I agree with the mis rep, I'll vote with you. Just to give you motivation here.

I find this sort of thing strange @nero

VOTE: Nom

Oh wait I switched to nom
VOTE: DGB
Sorry VFP

(I didn't edit out posts made by Dwlee here trying to support their vote on nom. All of their posts between these 2 are trying to defend Titus or pushing DGB. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.)

4.)

Why would I throw Osuka out a window and then try to pivot to Anya the next day if I'm evil? The only reason I had even ended up acquiescing to an Anya wagon is because 1.) STD had a clear claimed on him and 2.) The "masons" were calling for her head constantly.

Did you do anything to eliminate osuka other than literally be a vote on his wagon? I think I've read somewhere about scum jumping on when a partner is being eliminated to get towncred, I'll need to put my thinking cap on.

If the only two options were StD and Anya, this would be a good point, but they weren't, so it's not. And who gives a shit what DGB and DotW thought? Having them be "masons" means don't lim them, not trust their reads. All your conflict with DGB in the game doesn't make me feel like you trusted their reads regardless.

I literally started the Osuka wagon by going around asking people what they thought of Osuka's slot and if they'd be willing to vote there.

And then you jumped off when there was traction in 2663, waited 2 days, saw it was inevitable, jumped back on in 2738, and make a case in 2759, way past the point of mattering or trying to convince people since the lim went through less than 15 posts later in 2772.

They said the unvote was because of apathy. A, I don't believe that, and B, even if that's true and they were super apathetic, why not do nothing (leave vote on osuka) instead of doing something (unvoting)?

5.)
Here are the people who doubted Cyrus:

Yeah I don't buy it then.
Let's lim cyrus

That's it. So this is just not true. And someone else said to lim Titus for that as well:

Now this is kind of crazy but if we want to we could mech-yeet Titus to make Cyrus into just a vengeful vigilante and leash his kills.

I'm on board with this. I believe the claim mainly because it's a fucking batshit claim to make up. If the claim is true, vig makes him conf-town and gives us a 2nd kill until he's killed.

So maybe you don't think it's as town-confirming as you say.

6.)
Yes, let's specify yesterday so you don't have to go into how you hard-defended Anya D2 and chose them as the lim D3 over Titus, that would make your defense of yourself look less good. Even still, this is a lie to say you didn't look to lim Gamma. Yes, you ended up on Titus, but let me do one more quote-spew here (All of these quotes are from D4 since that's what you think makes you look the most town):

Yea mech-play says kill the cop before ELO. Not really liking our odds if this flips town but there aren't many other options.

VOTE: Gamma

VOTE: Gamma

I feel like people are going along with me too much/too easily. My reads this game have been garbage don't blindly follow me because I'm conftown

I feel like people are going along with me too much/too easily. My reads this game have been garbage don't blindly follow me because I'm conftown

I am not. I am following you based on my independent strategy analysis. If Gamma flips town, scum night kills are largely dictated onto low influence players. If he flips scum, it gives a boatload of associatives. I don't see a downside to flipping Gamma.

I don't even know if you have reads to be going along with. It seems like it is just the mech thing and if you've looked at it and came to the conclusion that a gamma yeet is the best mech play then I trust that.

Alright well, let's get this over with then. VOTE: Gamma

L-1

So the wagon is Choas, Titus, Dwlee, T3, DotW.

Yeetus
VOTE: Titus

VOTE: Titus

One thought is that nom saying I was scum for voting Rathe is kind of chainsawy, which could indicate partners. I could also just see Osuka/Nom(Vax) aggressively distancing. I noticed Vax and Osuka getting into a little read debate at one point.

Okay so are we still going with killing rathe here. I'm gonna try to look for Rathe crumbing the PT cop result.

I was in that game but I was dead. VOTE: Titu

I still don't see why scum!Titus/Andre leaves gamma alive.

I think Gamma is scum and scum are feeling trapped if he flips.

VOTE: Gamma
This just doesn't feel like town!gamma to me.

Titus I can totally see you being town here especially given the FIA WRC game that just ended I'm just like, confused kind of. And my biggest fear here is that the reason I keep getting into these mental ruts is a false assumption on my town reads.

...

Okay so who does that leave me with? It leaves me with Titus, Andres, Chaos, and Kyo. Assuming what I read into partner interactions is correct (no Titus/Andre and no Titus/Chaos) then I'm really left with 2 of {Andres, Chaos, Kyo} or {Titus, Kyo}. Are there any parts of my analysis that don't hold up?

Pedit: I'll respond to that soon™

Ugh but Kyo/Titus doesn't make sense either and this is where I descend into some confusion. Kyo also was pushing nom at some point so that's odd. I kind of want to start townreading Andre but I can't quite explain why.

(These 2 posts combined are meant to push away from Titus saying that there's no one she makes sense as partner with.)

I know I posted a lot of words but I'd like thoughts on my recent analysis of the game in 3888 and surrounding ones.

I know I posted a lot of words but I'd like thoughts on my recent analysis of the game in 3888 and surrounding ones.

(They also really want you to read it so you stop pushing Titus.)

titus is just scum here

titus is just scum here

+1

Who does she make sense as partners with?

Yes, Dwlee was voting Titus at the end of the day, but they fought it and tried defending her multiple times.

[ChaosOmega]

You act like that's a gotcha or something. Yes, you're not like a cartoon character always making posts that are scummy because you're scum. You tried to look more town there with the jump off and discussion, but tried to railroad it right back to Gamma after the slightest wagon on Titus forms and defended her slot multiple times. That's why I quoted the votes for Titus there, to show as soon as she got votes, you were right there to suggest someone else.

[ChaosOmega]

And you jumped right to 6, any response to 1-5?

[ChaosOmega]

1.) Titus was pushing both sides of the 1v1, which Nero correctly pointed out makes sense that if Peta and I are TvT for her to do that.

2.) Yes and we have been over why I didn't agree with Nero there multiple times at this point. It was scummy because it wasn't actually doing any solving (which I realized later), whereas Nero was saying that calling me scum looked planned. I still don't know think that's true.

3.) I took VFP's side but that I ended up switching wagons is not remarkable at all given many flipped town or confirmed town did the same thing. Other alive players that we don't know the alignments of also did this. Andres said Nom was town. I think t3 and STD thought VFP v Nom was TvT. DGB had the thought process of "This looks like bussing but I'm not going to vote Nom anyway" which is actually terrible. I'm don't think DotW thought Nom was scum there. You would have to kill half the player list for this if you thought it was that scum-indicative.

4.) We have been around this in circles but yes I did more than just be a vote on the wagon. I started it and begged people to unvote Anya. Unvoting Osuka there was because I was unconfident in my reads. I say at some point "just don't kill Anya today." And I said this before but if I was trying to bus for towncred I would have just buried Osuka. I would have known he would flip scum and would just hard push it through because it would give me more cred. Carefully considering his alignment is not scummy.

Voting off Anya D3 was a mistake, but I think a natural consequence of "there can be a mafia announcing voyeur" and "fake claiming neighbor when there is a PT cop looks awful."

5.) I thought Vax also said he thought the Cyrus claim was fake but maybe I misremembered.

1.) Not your initial point, that you were town because scum attacked you. And Nero being dead and town doesn't mean take his word as gospel, it also makes sense to lightly shade you at the beginning if you're Titus' partner there.

2.) nom was scum, their push was planned. Unless you think scum can have natural read progressions in not-multiball, don't know what you're saying. And also, not my point, you said that nom pushing you for a bad reason makes you town, Nero attacks nom for it and then you immediately defend nom against Nero. Don't see how this makes you look town at all.

3.) I can't even see the goalposts how far you moved them. You not thinking nom is scum is not why I scumread this interaction. This is why I put all those quotes there, to provide context. You want to state that it's AI you took VFP's side in the nom/VFP 1v1, you technically did on a cursory glance with your vote, but your actual content D1 was attacking DGB and defending Titus and nom. It is then even scummier to say how town you are because of this and distill your D1 down to being against nom. It's patently false from your ISO, and trying to misrep and say I need to go after everyone who didn't push nom is complete nonsense.

4.) We have been around this in circles, just wanted to address all the points in 1 post. The posts you made were definitely made to look like you led the wagon, but you jumped off the wagon when it was building (we have different reasons why you did this), and jumped back on with a strong case super super late. You say it pushed the wagon over the line, I say you jumped on top as it was speeding across and are taking way more credit than you deserve.

[ChaosOmega]

For 4576, if anyone not named Dwlee wants to engage me on any part of it feel free.

[ChaosOmega]

1.) Okay sure she could hard shade me early if I'm her buddy but it also makes sense for her to push both sides in a TvT. But yea she did attack me super hard early and I had a sizable wagon to start the game.

2.) Scum don't have natural progressions but they also don't plan every single interaction out (or maybe some people do and I don't?)

I think nom reacted that way because Nero asked for what he got out of having me vote Rathe and he just made something up that he thought sounded convincing enough. That isn't "planning" the way I thought Nero was using it. ​

3.) I never said and don't think I implied my day one was dedicated to pushing nom. I said I took VFP's side because that is what I did. VFP said they were gladiatoring Nom and I said okay and voted Nom. It later dissipated but that isn't scummy and shows I was willing to hop on nom. I don't remember wagon specifics but I don't think that wagon goes through even if I stay on it (from memory I want to say Nero was pushing something else and I was with that or something).

4.) I did lead the wagon even if I jumped off and I don't think this is a thing that can be reasonably disagreed about.

1.) On page 2. You've been around a while, I do not believe you think an E-3 wagon on page 2 and someone attacking you is trying to get you limmed. But, it lets you say shit like this later to try and get towncred.

3.) Again with strawmanning my point. You said taking VFP's side in the VFP/nom 1v1 is AI. My point is that by the letter of the law you did, but none of your posts or content support this. The little bit of towncred you could try to take from it is completely wiped away by saying you don't think the wagon goes through, so you being on the wagon means nothing. And again, I believe your content D1 is very AI, defending scum in nom and Titus and attacking DGB while being on the nom wagon.

4.) That's been kind of your thing this game, starting things that if they go through make you look town but then trying to derail them afterwards. The osuka wagon D2, the Titus wagon D4.

[ChaosOmega]

And you jumped right to 6, any response to 1-5?

Do you think that's important?

Do I think it's important that he tried insinuating my whole post is in bad faith by making a gotcha point out of part of 1 of my points, yes, obviously, don't be dumb.

[ChaosOmega]

I'm here, but I have nothing else really relevant to say. I've made my case as clear as I can, I think town's in good hands with Andres and Koba tomorrow. If anyone not named Dwlee has a question for me, feel free.

[ChaosOmega]

The case against me, summarized, is about associatives.

This is not entirely true. It is definitely part of it, but another big issue is your desire to control the narrative and your defensiveness that seems higher than it should be given the pressure on your slot.

It's just like, you defended this slot, you pushed here but were wrong, etc. I'm bound to be wrong because my day one reads aren't spectacular.

You argue that you are town because you were voting nom in the VFP/nom 1v1, isn't that a good day one read? This is why I scumread you, it all feels disingenuous. You argue you're town because of your D1 record, I say your D1 record is actually really bad if you look at it defending multiple scum, and now it's that your D1 reads are bound to be wrong, how could your pushes be good.

I dont think things being out of wack is really applicable to my slot, because I had real progressions on scum slots that led to their death, even if I wasn't confident in my reads the whole way. Now that's just from my perspective etc. etc. and you can think it looks like bussing if you want to.

Because it super looks like bussing. For both scum lims, you suggest it at the beginning, you jump on at the end, and spend the time in-between trying to derail it. I would be more able to accept it as a town thought process and being unsure of yourself if you didn't constantly try to get towncred by saying how townie you are for leading these wagons on scum.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: ssbm

I'm ok with the lim being here and Gamma checking in {Chaos, Dwlee}.

[ChaosOmega]

So defensive and deflecting, Gamma checking you would just be terrible.

I wasn't lying, good luck town and Dwlee.