Townstumps Mafia (Endgame)

[Titus]

Exclude myself as stump. I've been both a town and scum stump before. Let someone else have a turn.

[Titus]

VOTE: DGB

[Titus]

We haven’t made our account yet, so posting under my main for now but we’re definitely interested in being town stump. I guess just use our mains temporarily.

I'm going to exclude you Nancy. Nothing personal but you've been a town stump. Let someone else have a turn.

[Titus]

there will be no ... Lawyers

I object! I will be here.

[Titus]

I want to run the VCA next to the scumputer. Please don't deny me this.

[Titus]

but you already opted out of being a stump /j

I don't need to be a stump to do VCA

[Titus]

but you might get NKed :/

Unlikely. I'm usually a miselimination candidate.

[Titus]

I'm finding it really hard not to prod dodge this portion of the game.

[Titus]

Ok, Nancy, no googling, what's the name of the third Titus sibling?

[Titus]

Did I stump you?

[Titus]

VLA until Monday

[Titus]

mastina, why can't you give DGB a stump?

[Titus]

Pro dodge

[Titus]

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

[Titus]

I'll be looking at this later.

There's also a good chance I'll have to vla soon. I'll know more later this week.

[Titus]

Have I won yet?

Well you've won a townread.

VOTE: House

I'm struggling to get a hard grasp on most of the players but jjh, Moongrass, and Not_Mafia as town I feel pretty good about; I've no such townpings on House, NK15, or really anyone else who has posted post-role-PMs, honestly.

So let's take a stab at a readslist here.

DrippingGoofball
jjh927
Not_Mafia
Moongrass

cyrus62/KorVex
Gamma Emerald
Titus
nomnomnom

Mia and Maya Fey (NancyDrew/DKKoba Hydra)
Free Money Free Tea
Not Known 15
House

Town, no read yet, lean south of null right now.

Through to here. This mastina readslist feels different than the one in Defcon.

[Titus]

jjh, i asked you already, what do you hate about our posts?
Is it the fact nancy beat your scumteam just recently and you thought calling her illogical in this pregame was a good idea while she was kicking your ass?

The emotion behind this is missing. I would expect either sass or anger, but it reads flat.

[Titus]

I'll be looking at this later. There's also a good chance I'll have to vla soon. I'll know more later this week.

Town. <3

Can you ellaborate what though is your thought process in this regard?

Can? Yes.

Will?

Not until after Nancy shows up and only if the scumread remains.

While I hate being scumread for my vla notices, I shouldn't be townread for them either.

[Titus]

do you have a scumgame i can look at?

Several. Most recently was DEFCON. Before that, Warehouse 13. Before that, MBOS I. You can go further back, too, with XP Mafia 2, Anime UPick 2 (where I made like...2-3 posts with the rest being all Alisae), Skyrim mod uPick, I can go further back than that, too, find more as well, I've had literally at this point prolly 100+ onsite scumgames, these are some of the most recent ones tho.

DrippingGoofball
jjh927
Moongrass

Titus
Not_Mafia

House

cyrus62/KorVex
Gamma Emerald
nomnomnom


Free Money Free Tea
Not Known 15
Mia and Maya Fey (NancyDrew/DKKoba Hydra)

Locktown, townread, lean town, null, various shades of south of null.

This reminds me...why were you bragging earlier about my ability to read you when you captured me in W13?

[Titus]

I am the opposite

Gamma looks very much town

Yeah. A lot of people equivocation activity with town and he flew in and popped out a lot of posts at one time... without actually giving us anything to chew on.

There's no meat on all those bones.

While I disagree with House's assessment, I think both he and gamma are town.

[Titus]

Oh, I should mention...

I'm going to have an even harder time than usual trying to get a grasp on a read of Titus.

There are certain things I look for in my interactions with Titus, but given my recent return to the site as well as my reason for leaving, I can't really rely on meta because things will take time to return to any sort of equilibrium between us as I need to prove myself as not being the toxic piece of shit I used to be.

So, whereas I would look for Titus to butt heads with me as town and soft defend me as scum (until she decided to hard push me, lol), none of that is valid anymore.

That, on top of my natural aversion to scumreading her, will make this game difficult for me to vote for her should she be scum.

Your meta is frankly outdated as shit anyway. I got divorced since you got banned and it changed my personality a lot.

I still find meta trash though.

[Titus]

I agree that the hydra is scummy.

Not exactly townreading the hydra, but I want to see more entrances. I need conflict. :/

[Titus]

Hey, I have characters in my novel who need to hear an interview about them, but they're complying with directions not to consume any media about their case. How do I force them to see it?

[Titus]

Hey, I have characters in my novel who need to hear an interview about them, but they're complying with directions not to consume any media about their case. How do I force them to see it?

What?

This is a complete non-sequitur

Yes. It's totally irrelevant and unlikely to help me solve anyone. I'm just stuck on my novel.

[Titus]

VLA until Friday

X post all games

[Titus]

can y'all stop, I got a tilted nancy in my DMs ranting about this game and tbh I'm at the point where I'm also about to slip into toxicity because of this shitwagon on us persisting.


I tried to poke out elsewhere but y'all just hardfocused on us and that's really not helping create a pro-solve environment.

just lay off and trust that we will deliver. Like deadass early game is the worst time to read us and we resolve over time.

I think you both need to chill out. It blocks me from hearing any scumhunting you are doing. You're nowhere near elimination. Rage privately for now. Reads publicly.

This thread is hard enough to follow.

[Titus]

Please don't post so much that I miss mastina's replies to me. That's the most understandable thing in the thread given my low energy reserves

[Titus]

VOTE: jjh

[Titus]

Spoiler:

VOTE: jjh

This is completely out of nowhere

Please explain

VOTE: jjh

This is completely out of nowhere
Please explain

It is also a bad vote.
Please explain.

this is why i think they are scum together who buddys like that?

Glad I'm not alone in seeing that possible theory.

[Titus]

mastina's self comments about jjh having the best credibility to read her are kinda bleh in the first place. Then jjh practically hardsells mastina as town. No paranoia about being agency captured from jjh.

[Titus]

I do get it- if you want to elim in me or Mastina then you have to claim that we're both aligned since we've locktowned each other

Sadly, you are mistaken. I cannot be elimed in this game, because this is a shining example of my towngame and NSG is one of the treestumps

That's not true either. One of you could have agency captured the other. I like my theory but it is not a binary you are aligned.

[Titus]

I do get it- if you want to elim in me or Mastina then you have to claim that we're both aligned since we've locktowned each other

Sadly, you are mistaken. I cannot be elimed in this game, because this is a shining example of my towngame and NSG is one of the treestumps

so basically you are saying you locked town each other and voted for a stump that would defend you

How does voting for a town tree stump forward a scum win condition?

It doesn't necessarily. It forwards any condition to have a stump that won't eliminate you.

[Titus]

Is the hydra VLA or something? They've been silent largely after my request for them to stop defending themselves.

[Titus]

I find cyrus tonally towny thus far and nothing has pinged me id like to know what others are seeing in that slot

I agree with cyrus town.

[Titus]

Something's blocking my ability to read and make connections this game. It might be my work but I am wholly dissatisfied with my ability to generate reads here. I feel cyrus and gamma are town but everyone else is meh.

Can someone ask me a question about their theory in a concise post?

[Titus]

I had to eat my old one.

[Titus]

Titus could you talk more about your townread on Gamma?

It's a tonal townread mostly. He doesn't seem to back down when pushed or FoSed. He's clear and understandable too.

[Titus]

@Moongrass I know it's possible Gamma is scum but that type of posting.

@House, Nothing changed. I just forgot my read on you.

I don't like nom calling cyrus miselimination bait. He's near a universal townread.

[Titus]

Also i feel like there are way too many players here announcing an 100% locktown read on other players for minor shit on day 1. Just feels like an disaster waiting to happen.

I'd scumread you for this if you weren't a stump.

[Titus]

Sorry, I'm not likely to be on today.

X post all games.

[Titus]

Ahh the memories.

We'll be doing another one in September. We can rent an AirBnB. It's in Sacramento. Check it out in General Discussion if interested.

/end shameless plug

Alright. Really gone now.

[Titus]

@cyrus, I understand my ISO is a bit lacking as I have been on vla for a good chunk of the game. I am stealing 5 minutes to post here. I'm giving what I can but my usual methods aren't working for scumhunting as I can't really engage anyone.

I'm hoping to adapt soon but my schedule and anxiety exploded.

[Titus]

If I had rolled scum here I'd be playing to make sure nsg and mastina townread me.

Very good point actually.

There's no point in playing to mastina. It's an empty slot, even more so than me.

[Titus]

to be clear, i've never said that it's impossible for jjh to be scum. my argument—as it always is—is that i see the evidence for him being town as being relatively strong, and the evidence for him being scum to be fairly weak or nonexistent.

I don't see the evidence for him being town. I see his reads coming from nowhere, particularly his mastina read.

[Titus]

My thinking is not nuanced, its complicated but until I feel fairly certain on the pairings I'm unlikely to explore this much further until we get a flip.

Nuanced and complicated are kinda similar IMO?

Nuanced has fine details.
Complicated is hard to understand.

[Titus]

I think there's clearly a split in the game with jjh mastina on one side and Fey nm on the other. If both groups are town then the game gets tricky.

I'm unsure I follow that logic.

Moonlogic isn't for everyone.

Elaborate more on this split. I can handle moonlogic.

[Titus]

[snip]

Rather than fighting, can we just mass vote who you both agree on is null or lower?

[Titus]

At the end of 69, liking moongrass. Getting mixed vibes from nom.

[Titus]

It's pretty obvious to anyone that reads your ISO, checks out your votes, and the way your reads flow.

Oh now I *really* want an explanation for this post
1) what is supposed to be obvious in my ISO? Point it out.
2) what is scummy about my votes?
3) what is scummy about my reads?
Go on, I ain't letting you go with this weak push

This might be S v S.

[Titus]

VOTE: FMFT

Not mafia
Nom
House
Gamma
Cyrus
Feys
Titus
NK15
FMFT
Jjh
Mastina

Firstly, how'd nom jump to the top this time? This is the second time one of your prior suspects has moved to the very top. I also noticed this post:

Cyrus what's the best point you have on JJH being scum?

around the time of your previous readlist. I don't feel like this makes sense with the fact you had jjh and cyrus as confident townreads at that time? The logical explanations for this post existing are questioning cyrus or considering voting jjh, neither of which matches with the stated reads at that time.

I disagree with the second part, but this is a towny post.

[Titus]

I think both those groups are aligned, with nm/fey being less strongly aligned. So either TvT or SvS like:

Jjh
Mastina
House
Gamma
Cyrus
FMFT
Titus
NK15
Nom
Not mafia
Feys

Or the inverse:

Not mafia
Feys
NK15
House
Gamma
Cyrus
FMFT
Titus
Nom
Jjh
Mastina

I read this post like 6 times and I don't get it.

[Titus]

If I had rolled scum here I'd be playing to make sure nsg and mastina townread me.

Very good point actually.

There's no point in playing to mastina. It's an empty slot, even more so than me.

wdym "empty slot"? masinta has been active at times

Due to her vla, she has no relevant, recent content. Putting her up to an empty slot is an improvement as her prior posting with jjh was scummy.

[Titus]

VOTE: FMFT

This is what my cursory look at the votes tells me if I can't get jjh.

[Titus]

VOTE: FMFT

This is what my cursory look at the votes tells me if I can't get jjh.

Not terrible, but I prefer nummy nomnomnom.

If we're SvS, why won't you help me bus?

I'm not sure you are. I have theories in my head regarding things, but I'm at the spitball stage. I'm open to it, but I'd rather test out my other theories first.

[Titus]

Titus
mastina - scum lean
cyrus62, replacing KorVex - strong town lean
jjh927 - moderate scum lean
Mia and Maya Fey (NancyDrew/DKKoba Hydra) - null
Not_Mafia - null
DrippingGoofball - scum obv
northsidegal - guilty child
Free Money Free Tea - weak scum
House - weak town
NorwegianboyEE - the other guilty child
Moongrass - weak town
Gamma Emerald - town
nomnomnom - weak scum
Not Known 15 - null (wanting to see how wagons shake), would vote

[Titus]

DGB and the two stump reads were not serious.

[Titus]

P.S. i'm not normal.

[Titus]

I particularly dislike this post:

to be clear, i've never said that it's impossible for jjh to be scum. my argument—as it always is—is that i see the evidence for him being town as being relatively strong, and the evidence for him being scum to be fairly weak or nonexistent.

I don't see the evidence for him being town. I see his reads coming from nowhere, particularly his mastina read.

Titus has played with me before and therefore knows that when I make a readslist, I habitually don't give reasoning and request that people ask me about individual reads in order to develop conversation. If Titus was actually interested in interactions between myself and Mastina rather than jumping on the bandwagon with the group of people who are scumreading me and Mastina, then I believe she would have asked why I am townreading Mastina.

Someone did ask why you were townreading mastina. It was a nonsense answer. I'm too lazy to go back and get it.

Second, I didn't sheep the theory of you and mastina being scum together, I started it. My vote wasn't the lead on yours, but that theory is mine.

I stand by the fact you and mastina having zero paranoia of each other and immediately lock towning each other is off.

I also find your stance on asking about reads highly hypocritical. You merely assume the reason for my NK15 read and I don't believe anyone has asked me to elaborate there.

[Titus]

Maybe not FMFT actually

Might be a scum in my townreads

But Titus is very likely to be scum here. I think her stance on NK15 has been that she doesn't want to bus but she will if it reaches that point

could we focus on nk15 as a flip there would add fire to who i think is scum..

UNVOTE:

...

Interesting.

i dont want a hammer till we know for sure. nm wants it bad that pings me

Nm would hammer his mother.

Also, I don't think we should do this. Hammering a commuter claim is garbage. We can just tell NK15 to not commute so we can investigate him. If he complies, we have an unkillable town slot. If he claims compulsive or refuses, then yeet his ass.

[Titus]

VOTE: Titus

Kinda want to try something completely different

This is because you know NK15 is town.

[Titus]

Who claimed commuter?

NK15

[Titus]

The last exchanges did not change my reads...

I am a Commuter

[Titus]

I know there's a real chance I am wrong here but with at least one other confirmable role out there, I expect our other PRs to sound scummy.

[Titus]

In case I die, I'd like to highlight this post

Your entrance posts seem a little more proactive than what I thought would be normal for you NK15. That yawn in particular seemed like posting for the sake of posting. Am I wrong?

if NK does indeed flip scum then this post is likely coming from scum distancing early given the seemingly laser precise reasoning on some early game comment, and that comment also sticks out in the fact that

Moongrass does not have a game played with NK15 in her topic history

. So this is potentially some hard TMI right there.

If Moongrass and NK15 are scum, nom is very probtown.

It could be TMI on TMI but that seems unlikely.

[Titus]

I was wrong on defending NK 15. I take responsibility for that. It didn't feel like a scum wagon.

[Titus]

Titus what's your takes on NK's teammates from your POV here?

Ineffective largely with maybe one or two early bussers. One or two on the back end once it became inevitable.

[Titus]

I'm not sure specific names because I have been swamped.

[Titus]

VOTE: cyrus

[Titus]

I don't believe House makes up a guilty here.

[Titus]

UNVOTE: cyrus

[Titus]

Can we not do gambits and self voting and shit as I am working my mental health back up?

[Titus]

Sure.

VOTE: FMFT

[Titus]

I think town wins from here after that D1.

No.

NK was a commuter enabler. If the commuter is an real town role it would be in scum's interest to buss NK15 and limit the town's power.

I could see that. I just don’t understand why his buddies wouldn’t have just told him to claim commuter enabler, if that is true. If there is actually a town commuter, it seems counter-intuitive.

The only thing I can think of is that they didn't want NK checked either. Otherwise, enabler works better as a fakeclaim.

Unseasoned scum?

[Titus]

Vote Count 1.08

Not Known 15 (5):

mastina, jjh927, Moongrass, nomnomnom, DrippingGoofball,

jjh927 (4):

Mia and Maya Fey, Not_Mafia, Titus, cyrus62,

Free Money Free Tea (1):

House,

Moongrass (1):

Not Known 15,

cyrus62 (1):

Gamma Emerald,

mastina (1):

Free Money Free Tea,

Mia and Maya Fey (0):

nomnomnom (0):

House (0):

Not_Mafia (0):

Gamma Emerald (0):

Titus (0):

DrippingGoofball (0):

No Euphemization (0):

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it takes

7

to euphemize and

7

to have no euphemization.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-06-17 17:00:00). At Deadline, currently No Euphemization will occur.

A bus has to make sense here. I quoted the largest wagon to counter NK. If you're town and cyrus is town, that leaves not mafia as the only possible scum slot trying to save NK15.

Given the hard consistent push and lack of a hard counter, I am going with bus here.

[Titus]

Please finish catching up. House faked it.

[Titus]

Given the hard consistent push and lack of a hard counter, I am going with bus here.

What do you think is more likely a full bus? Or one on one off?

I'm thinking one on at 5 and one off at that point. Maybe both were on at the end.

The way things folded up at the end is odd.

I'm thinking not mafia jjh and fmft as my suspects right now.

[Titus]

Vote Count 1.08

Not Known 15 (5):

mastina, jjh927, Moongrass, nomnomnom, DrippingGoofball,

jjh927 (4):

Mia and Maya Fey, Not_Mafia, Titus, cyrus62,

Free Money Free Tea (1):

House,

Moongrass (1):

Not Known 15,

cyrus62 (1):

Gamma Emerald,

mastina (1):

Free Money Free Tea,

Mia and Maya Fey (0):

nomnomnom (0):

House (0):

Not_Mafia (0):

Gamma Emerald (0):

Titus (0):

DrippingGoofball (0):

No Euphemization (0):

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it takes

7

to euphemize and

7

to have no euphemization.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-06-17 17:00:00). At Deadline, currently No Euphemization will occur.

A bus has to make sense here. I quoted the largest wagon to counter NK. If you're town and cyrus is town, that leaves not mafia as the only possible scum slot trying to save NK15.

Given the hard consistent push and lack of a hard counter, I am going with bus here.

Vote Count 1.FINAL

Not Known 15 (7):

mastina, Free Money Free Tea, Mia and Maya Fey, DrippingGoofball, nomnomnom, Not_Mafia, Moongrass,

Moongrass (1):

Gamma Emerald,

Free Money Free Tea (1):

Titus,

Mia and Maya Fey (1):

Not Known 15,

Titus (1):

jjh927,

nomnomnom (0):

jjh927 (0):

House (0):

cyrus62 (0):

mastina (0):

Not_Mafia (0):

Gamma Emerald (0):

DrippingGoofball (0):

No Euphemization (0):

Not Voting (2):

House, cyrus62,

With 13 alive, it takes

7

to euphemize and

7

to have no euphemization.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-06-17 17:00:00). At Deadline, currently No Euphemization will occur.

A Hammer has been achieved!

Not Known 15 has been made into a Euphemism Day 1.

He was:

Spoiler:

Mafia Informed Commuter Enabler

Informed Commuter Enabler

You are aware that [Redacted]. If you die, any commuters will be unable to commute.

Do you think it was a hard or reluctant bus?

I'd need to know the alignment of jjh to answer that.

[Titus]

Maybe not FMFT actually

Might be a scum in my townreads

But Titus is very likely to be scum here. I think her stance on NK15 has been that she doesn't want to bus but she will if it reaches that point

could we focus on nk15 as a flip there would add fire to who i think is scum..

UNVOTE:

...

Interesting.

i dont want a hammer till we know for sure. nm wants it bad that pings me

Nm would hammer his mother.

Also, I don't think we should do this. Hammering a commuter claim is garbage. We can just tell NK15 to not commute so we can investigate him. If he complies, we have an unkillable town slot. If he claims compulsive or refuses, then yeet his ass.

Titus is town.

Thing is, how does Titus even know we have an investigative role at all, considering she's not a stump?

I believed your tracker claim? Afterwards I reset that.

[Titus]

Killing nom is something I would have done as scum. Hammering NK is not. I would have gone all in on bussing NK from the start and I sure as hell would not have pushed the players I have generating as much content as there is because a low info, low profile day would've enabled me to coast to end game after bussing.

For the record this is one of the reasons I am clearing jjh.

jjh was one of the pushers on NK15, early, often, pretty hard.

He hopped OFF at the end of the day.

Scum that bus tend to commit to the bus; it's usually only town who hop off of a wagon on scum in the manner jjh did.

Jjh hopped off after it was inevitable. He didn't really push me or detract from NK15. His vote on me was a vanity, make a point vote. He still was comitted to an NK15 scum flip.

[Titus]

What does that have to do with your gambit?

[Titus]

What does that have to do with your gambit?

You based your excuse for assuming there was an investigative role on my d2 gambit, but you leaked knowledge of an investigative role in d1, before my gambit occurred.

You pulled your explanation out of thin air.

Supposing an investigative role exists is pretty normal. An investigative role would have got a guilty anyway.

[Titus]

What does that have to do with your gambit?

You based your excuse for assuming there was an investigative role on my d2 gambit, but you leaked knowledge of an investigative role in d1, before my gambit occurred.

You pulled your explanation out of thin air.

Supposing an investigative role exists is pretty normal. An investigative role would have got a guilty anyway.

And that would have been a much better explanation than trying to point at my play a day after you made that post.

You specifically accused me of knowing that you were an investigator, not that one existed generally.

[Titus]

@House, I can't recall the last game without an investigative role of somesort in it. Maybe you can find one but good luck.

What's your read on JJH house?

[Titus]

P.S. I have an extra hat lying around House. Try lathering it in barbecue sauce.

[Titus]

The life of Titus. If someone isn't faking a guilty on me, someone is "paranoid" of me because of my name. I really need to learn how to sort that crap.

[Titus]

You're not the first person and you won't be the last to have Titus baggage. If there was an award for paranoia inducing player, it would be me. My start I rolled like 6 scum games in a row and won them all, so it kinda cemented the paranoia and ruined my obvtown gene.

[Titus]

I suspect jjh and mastina as scum.

[Titus]

I suspect jjh and mastina as scum.

Strange vote, then.

I also suspect FMFT. I also suspect not mafia.

I cannot vote all of my suspects.

[Titus]

I agree we should have waited for a claim, but I would have been willing to hammer a VT claim soon after. The slot can't live until lylo.

[Titus]

If we have a doc on not DGB, that might be autowin. A jail is a little murky.

[Titus]

nm who did you check?

Why are you supposing nm checked anyone?

[Titus]

nm who did you check?

Why are you supposing nm checked anyone?

Why wouldn't I have?

Your action could have been anything as far as we know.

[Titus]

@NM, you should check jjh. There's no reason I should be on the outside if he's town.

[Titus]

I don't actually think cyrus thinks you're scum. It seems like he doesn't like being scumread.

every game gets old.

Welcome to my world. Most people don't even remember my legendary start but the old legends passed down their paranoia of me.

[Titus]

What bugs me is that he's had a PoE pool of 5 players since D1 which hasn't changed after 3 flips.

That's the only reason I'm not voting jjh right now. Nothing in my worldview has changed, but we've had two flips.

[Titus]

@EE, Can you explain how we're at autowin here?

[Titus]

Static reads aren't good. I agree. That's why I am not voting jjh.

[Titus]

Oh ok. Well who would you vote for then?

I would vote for jjh (obviously). I would honestly vote for most of the thread tbh.

A consensus d1 elim and a consensus d2 miselimination doesn't tell me much besides the fact that scum are driving the eliminations.

[Titus]

@EE, Can you explain how we're at autowin here?

Don't ask mechanical questions of the stumps

I'll ask what questions I want to. They can shut me down if they want.

My guess is they're overlapping their reads with guesses as to the setup rather than an autowin.

My theory is NK15 was consensus because the other option was you.

[Titus]

Not caring too much for this trip down memory lane rather than playing.

[Titus]

@NM, you should check jjh. There's no reason I should be on the outside if he's town.

Titus, please elaborate on what you meant by this

I have been taking stances and being transparent. You haven't been town or giving reasons for your stances. The biggest thing you have done is OMGUS me for me highlighting the unnatural relationship between you and mastina.

You and your partner have pushed this or scum have bandwagoned you to suit their ends.

[Titus]

Fwiw if you're town jjh, house is almost certainly scum for his interactions with me.

[Titus]

Assuming we Elim Titus, if she flips town, I'll check House
If she flips scum, I'll check Fey Hydra

NB: I am not necessarily looking for scum with my checks, but I do have the ability to confirm people as town

Oh, I know what you are

Press X to doubt

*mashes X button until it breaks*

[Titus]

Look at the scum scrambling lmao. It's probably just the hydra and house. Especially if titus flips town.

House tries to get some momentum on cyrus, no luck so he redirects back to old suspects. Hydra instavotes me for having them in my poe, but doesn't blink at House's shade...and now the nom kill makes sense. The no kill probably because both forgot to put a kill through.

Jjh this is the best reason yet to townread cyrus. We get Titus limmed and it really is auto win after that regardless of alignment.

This post is yucky.

[Titus]

Or no kill because the pool of suspects was shrinking especially if NM claimed today.

This is still levels of yucky.

VOTE: Moongrass

The amount of forcing he's trying to do to avoid the logical conclusion of a protected kill is baffling.

[Titus]

I have pizza but the road out from my house is closed because of space lasers. Can I zoom instead?

[Titus]

How do you know?

Because I'm an Informed Town Godfather.

Okay, this has to be a troll. Right? Only town godfather I’ve ever seen was in Animals uPick 2. I still don’t understand what Noraa’s role was in that game.

Yes. House was trolling.

The only town godparent is the Godmother.

[Titus]

@EE, Can you explain how we're at autowin here?

I see no reason to reveal my cards even if i feel relatively confident.

All your confidence is doing is leaving me here as limbait. There's no way you are at autowin because miseliming me has a near zero win rate for town. The only time I have been miseliminated and won in recent memory, town had an exposed autowin.

[Titus]

I am pretty confident that scum are the ones pushing for my flip and town isn't. At first, I was a bit worried about pocketing but the way those pushing me have reacted indicates scum more. There's an argument to be made for why I am scum, yet no one is making those arguments. Instead, there's a lot of posts assuming I am scum and therefore what the game must look like.

House's jjh and moongrass theory looks particularly viable as jjh's posting looks to be all about keeping me in the PoE after Moon flips scum.

----

On another random note, I do think that the scum roles in this game must be directly designed to counter town. The scum kill blocker must be town. The IC must be town. Throwing in anymore confirmable roles is bad for game balance. If NM is real, then game balance is off from the start or scum have a way to bypass NM. So I can't see why EE views NM's result as real.

[Titus]

So I can't see why EE views NM's result as real.

That’s cool, you can believe that.
But i’m never accepting an lim on N_M or his clears today. So if you think that’s happening then just forget about it.

I'm still sorting them, regardless of what you're saying here. I know it won't happen today, and maybe not ever, but they aren't cleared in my book because that's bad design. If it is bad design, a win is a win and I'll take it though.

[Titus]

This actually makes me feel better about the possibility that scum's main counter to NM's clears was a commuter that no longer functions and Titus is scum offhandedly complaining about the setup balance

That would be impossible. Having game balance depend on two of presumably three scumroles surviving is terrible design, not just bad. It would have been more than just me fighting the nk elimination as well.

[Titus]

I dunno, what if scum have 2 commuters and a commuter enabler up against a disloyal role granting 'clears' for town

Again, that still makes nk the essential lynchpin in all of their power. Yet he dies n1 with no resistance?

Giving scum an enabler role to their only way to stop a broken game where ICs confirm the presence of all power roles makes zero sense.

[Titus]

House and Titus make sense as a team.
Moon and JJH makes sense as a team.

I find House and Titus scummy.

I find Moon scummy and JJH townie.

Conclusion= Eliminate in House/Titus.

I am glad you're at least considering jjh as scum but why do they make sense from your PoV?

[Titus]

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt because I sincerely hope she learnt something from a specific game a while ago

Here's the problem I have compared to that last game.

1) Your mastina read is unfounded. Your reads in the prior game had a basis, I just felt they were terrible.

2) From your position, you have never appeared to consider the possibility of scum pocketing me. That feels like you never considered the possibility of me being town. I have considered the possibility of being pocketed because House has been pretty clearly not wanting to vote me all game (since Day 1). The fact I feel you never considered this makes me feel you're scummy.

3) This player knows how to read me stuff. The fact no paranoia has been raised about me knowing how to read players twice is concerning to me. Particularly of mastina. She gave no real content day 2 (partially excusable due to the short day). Today, she's popped a vote down and left. I know she's cleared by NM supposedly but that type of thing irks me. There's no follow up from her about why I find her suspicious when I am supposedly one of the best people at reading her.

House has a similar post about me being able to read him and rationale you don't seem to engage with. I have gone back and forth from strong town to weak town on house (even if I didn't wall in as many words). I am naturally concerned about pocketing, so if you think House is scum, show me that.

5) Moongrass is opportunistic as fuck.

6) I admit I have been the townbeard this game, so I am open to a conversation but yelling I am scum will cause me to dig in more.


This reachout is frankly the first townie thing I have seen from you. I'm willing to frankly discuss things with you. I am willing to listen but I need you to listen too.

[Titus]

My main drive here remains that i think Titus is scum because of their play, meta, interactions around confirmed scum, PoE. And nothing has really convinced me to lay off that. So House is also scummy for trying to keep the votes away from Titus.

This is very much a pride read. After I flip town, you should reconsider your reads entirely. If you reach the same conclusions, fine. We'll likely lose though because you have stopped hunting half the game.

It's your job as a stump to question everything and get the best out of everyone. You are failing at that because of your stubbornness.

To be fair you're doing better than NSG who isn't even here.

I wish DGB could come back as well. DGB is confirmed town and correctly townreading me. I would humbly request you two have a conversation.

You are also townreading the hydra who you argue is conftown. They townread me too.

[Titus]

Mastina says you're the second best here after me at reading her, so you must know that the style of her play and various ranges vary based on her IRL state of mind.


Do you read Mastina's blog when you're playing mafia with her?

I am unaware of mastina's blog and partially aware of her IRL issues thanks to the Speakeasy and general discussion.

Usually when mastina has IRL issues, she vlas.

She also doesn't ignore chunks of the game without admitting so usually.

Lastly, mastina put me on that pedestal early on. I objected to it then and I do now, for the same reason I object to House doing it. It provides a convienent excuse to OMGUS if I ever call them scum.

[Titus]

Was 4 skipped intentionally?

No. I got a phone call in the middle of writing that.

[Titus]

My main drive here remains that i think Titus is scum because of their play, meta, interactions around confirmed scum, PoE. And nothing has really convinced me to lay off that. So House is also scummy for trying to keep the votes away from Titus.

This is very much a pride read. After I flip town, you should reconsider your reads entirely. If you reach the same conclusions, fine. We'll likely lose though because you have stopped hunting half the game.

It's your job as a stump to question everything and get the best out of everyone. You are failing at that because of your stubbornness.

To be fair you're doing better than NSG who isn't even here.

I wish DGB could come back as well. DGB is confirmed town and correctly townreading me. I would humbly request you two have a conversation.

You are also townreading the hydra who you argue is conftown. They townread me too.

these could be pockets . but tell me why the no vote on nk?

It was too easy. No one townread NK. The only counterwagon was someone I also read as scummy. The claim was verifiable.

To update with current information, if NK was limmed based off too many power roles then one of the town roles should be suspect as well.

I can't see why we eliminated NK but I am glad I was wrong.

[Titus]

these could be pockets

Also DGB cannot be pocketing me. They're conftown.

[Titus]

so you didnt vote nk and you were the 2nd on fmft . i find it very hard to trust you.

Acknowledged. I went more with the consensus as I was wrong before.

I acknowledge my reads have been bad. That's why I called myself the townbeard and welcome challenges to my reads.

I'm not asking you to trust my reads for accuracy but to challenge me to ensure I get right.

[Titus]

these could be pockets

Also DGB cannot be pocketing me. They're conftown.

you see one thing about the way i talk that helps me is . people mis understand. i didnt say they pocketed you . i meant you pocketed them.

Then engage their read on me when they get on. Don't just assume I pocketed them because its convenient.

If you're town, your opinions are both from a place of reason (and I think you are), then reason should win out.

[Titus]

Continuing down with things I can address now;

I don't tend to consider "pocketed town" as something I hunt for. However, if there was any consideration there, there is no way that your defence of NK15 could be considered anything related to a pocket. No other scum have flipped yet and I focus on independent scumreads primarily rather than teams; it is just how this game has played out that I happen to be pushing a team angle at this point in time.

Not sure what point you're making with number 3. I do still think Mastina is still town but amusingly less so than in day 1 despite the inno from NM. If we're gonna talk about meta knowledge stuff, the players that know how to read me in this game are Mastina and NSG. I do not believe you can accurately read me. Nancy is a stretch because Nancy expects me to townread her from her first post and if I don't then she will just scumread me, but that's fine because it means she still doesn't know what I look for which gives me more confidence in my ability to read her.

Most of my read on House right now is based on how he basically went shopping for elims that weren't you and then settled on Moon today. It's fairly gestalt as a read in that sense.

I don't think Moon bussed NK15

Logical problem I see here. You call House shopping for an elim that isn't me as scummy and calling it a gestalt read. That sounds like a fancy way of saying that you're considering me scum when reading House. Why is House scummy for it but not the hydra? Both are townreading me very hard.

While I admit my past of reading you wrong, your fallacy of that others read you well so they're right is a fallacy. Those could very well be pocket attempts.

I do like the softening of the mastina read, despite the clear. Someone speculated NM could have a disloyal role. A jailkeeper would create a false innocent on that. The fact you are still hunting rather than accepting bumps my read up on you a bit.

[Titus]

I would love to talk to both NSG and DGB to discuss reads but they’re not here and don’t seem engaged.

I'd rather she return, but if she's disengaged, I wish she'd at least bow out so town gets something out of it.

Fair enough on both but despite the number of days, neither is in prod range.

[Titus]

Mastina says you're the second best here after me at reading her, so you must know that the style of her play and various ranges vary based on her IRL state of mind.


Do you read Mastina's blog when you're playing mafia with her?

I am unaware of mastina's blog and partially aware of her IRL issues thanks to the Speakeasy and general discussion.

Usually when mastina has IRL issues, she vlas.

She also doesn't ignore chunks of the game without admitting so usually.

Lastly, mastina put me on that pedestal early on. I objected to it then and I do now, for the same reason I object to House doing it. It provides a convienent excuse to OMGUS if I ever call them scum.

Her blog is in her signature, and it is worth being aware that over 'business as usual' Mastina's IRL state of mind will fluctuate.

When I am placing Mastina in early game, I take a look at the nature and frequency of the posting in her blog, noting that if she hasn't posted in a long while that is a bad sign. Her level of general motivation is a predictor for the level of motivation she can put into a mafia game. Town!Mastina has a higher level of motivation than scum!Mastina. Compare the level of effort with the expected level of effort based on the blog and you have an accurate Mastina read

This is the basis I wanted to hear for so long. Why couldn't you just say this sooner? Your basis of your read evolution makes sense.

(Note: I haven't checked this for accuracy but I doubt jjh is lying about something verifiable.)

[Titus]

lol sorry im not a pokemon you cant fit me in your pocket. @titus

Pokemon aren't the only thing that go in pockets.

Seriously though, I am not trying to pocket anyone. I want open discussions. If you scumread me after that, so be it.

Btw, the way jjh is talking with me, he's moved dramatically up in my reads.

[Titus]

I do like the softening of the mastina read, despite the clear. Someone speculated NM could have a disloyal role. A jailkeeper would create a false innocent on that.

True. But considering the whole picture makes this point redundant.

You have the whole picture, which you refuse to share. I can't base my opinion on information I don't have. I trust my own intution about game balance over someone who claims autowin and clearly has flawed judgment because you're pushing me. Your analysis must be wrong somewhere, and I can't figure out where.

If your pool is right, but your read on me is wrong, then you do nothing by essentially sitting on the sidelines championing votes on me.

I want to get on the same page, but you're witholding where you are in the book, which is odd for an autowin.

[Titus]

Btw, the way jjh is talking with me, he's moved dramatically up in my reads.

Meaning you’re left with?

Titus - town
mastina - lean scum (already discussed, weaker based on jjh points, need to look at what he says. His read is valid, I want to see if it is sound.)
cyrus62 - null, recent interactions have plummeted this read. His accusations of pocketing are fake sounding. His PoE is convienently yours and leaves him open to vote anyone. He's made no progress on his PoE, even if it's to narrow me down as scum with fewer partner possibilities.)
jjh927 - recent interactions feel genuine
Mia and Maya Fey - I like Nancy's townread here. It doesn't feel like a pocket given the fact she doesn't promote my reads as accurate.
Not_Mafia - Likely town selected role
DrippingGoofball - locktown
House - Weak town
Moongrass - scum
Gamma Emerald - likely an accurate NM clear, been TRing them all game

[Titus]

VOTE: moon i disagree with jjh reads. so sue me.

Moon and cyrus are not partners.

This position with moon v me could be tvt with scum setting themselves up for chain eliminations.

[Titus]

You know what

VOTE: Cyrus

VOTE: cyrus

[Titus]

I doubt house and jjh are a team, but I certainly understand the speculation one of them is if you're town. It's far too easy, if you're town, to chain us both for the win. That's part of the reason I moved onto cyrus. My read on you hasn't improved per se. It's just my read on cyrus plummeted that badly and I want to see where it goes. I know I can tunnel bad but your posting suggesting a no kill was just ridiculous.

[Titus]

Just to makes things 100 times worse, I'm low key getting paranoid about a house/jjh team as they are both strongly defending players as town that are being scumread by everyone else and voting around each other instead. In an amazing play to endgame easily as this two sides thing ensures one of them win. House did say himself that Titus would not be his buddy, it's more likely someone he's fighting with.

This is hilarious, considering you refuse to vote me.

Why are you campaigning to get votes on yourself?

[Titus]

Just to makes things 100 times worse, I'm low key getting paranoid about a house/jjh team as they are both strongly defending players as town that are being scumread by everyone else and voting around each other instead. In an amazing play to endgame easily as this two sides thing ensures one of them win. House did say himself that Titus would not be his buddy, it's more likely someone he's fighting with.

This is hilarious, considering you refuse to vote me.

Why are you campaigning to get votes on yourself?

I'm campaigning for votes to match the shade.

Moon swapped from heavy buddying to calling me scum the second they read me calling them scum, so I wasn't them to put their vote what their mouth is.

The problem with this is that it rings hollow. Why would town!moon ever move if I was a wagon and he scumread me too?

Jjh I could see you taking issue with if this was your position given he moved to cyrus and not you, yet you didn't ask jjh for the rationale for his cyrus vote.

What is your cyrus read, without factoring in jjh is voting there?

[Titus]

I had an exchange with him earlier this Day that rang towny to me, which reduced my PoE to jjh & Moon.

Explain this please. Do his recent posts change that?

[Titus]

bring it but this will prove that jjh is scum like i thought maybe with titus moon or house.

Do you mean your flip? Your flip will prove that I am scum? Like you thought with. . . *checks notes* literally every player in the current POE other than you?

every player i said i have 5 . day one. day 2 one of the 5 was removed as town by a flip day 3 another was removed due to nm i had to remove ne. naa forget this i will just find my poe and show you where i sit

I don't see how you town proves jjh scum, and I still don't fully trust jjh. He could have dismissed my replies to him being scum and painted me as scummy given he has the stronger position.

[Titus]

bussing day 1 is an awful play that at best will shift the pressure to win the game singlehandedly as a deepwolf onto a scum player who doesn't know what they're getting into

Hey, i bussed day 1 and day 2 consequently in a previous game and won singlehandedly as a deepwolf.
It ain’t as stupid as you think!

Jjh is clear bussing must factor in the risk reward. This point, ironically, is part of why I don't fully trust jjh.

[Titus]

We're all free thinkers here

I'm sure you independently came to the conclusion that everyone who could possibly be an elim today could be scum and aren't just saying it to justify your votes

You should just join your buddy Moon on me instead of pushing from the sidelines.

I'm voting Cyrus now and I'm not sure of your alignment

That's not what every post that isn't a direct challenge to vote me screams.

Why aren't you engaging and trying to get the reasons why he votes cyrus over you and discussing the substance of the cyrus read?

[Titus]

I had an exchange with him earlier this Day that rang towny to me, which reduced my PoE to jjh & Moon.

Explain this please. Do his recent posts change that?

That will take some time to locate the interaction again.

I've since tried to ignore his posts because his thought process just irks me.

Why would you lock and forget someone who's thought process irks you?

[Titus]

Because you've seen what happens when I stay engaged with people that bother me.

I actually don't recall this. It's been years.

[Titus]

I had an exchange with him earlier this Day that rang towny to me, which reduced my PoE to jjh & Moon.

Explain this please. Do his recent posts change that?

Start at 2550.

Read to 2571.

I don't see how cyrus rings townie from that. He has a bit of AtE regarding who to flip if he flips town. You aren't convinced by his actions in that exchange but the fact your hammer rationale was off.

[Titus]

Idk... if Titus is scum, I don't see it.

Like, I won't WK her, but I don't see myself voting her.

that was my stance on nk. i wont discredit you if she flips scum or the rest if she flips town. we make mistakes . that is why i askd nm to check you. lmao maybe we should just vote no untill nm checks enough. people jokeing joke i do that sometimes.

Here's the problems I have with this post and cyrus's later vote on me. He admits that he didn't see himself voting NK which was a softer defense and more palatable defense of NK rather than me straight up questioning the wagon. He was fine with, if not on, the FMFT wagon. His reads were as bad as mine. Yet, his stance isn't that "we make mistakes" as it was here with you.

He also jokes we should no eliminate until nm checks enough. If cyrus is scum, it suggests scum still has a false positive in play.

[Titus]

Idk... if Titus is scum, I don't see it.

Like, I won't WK her, but I don't see myself voting her.

that was my stance on nk. i wont discredit you if she flips scum or the rest if she flips town. we make mistakes . that is why i askd nm to check you. lmao maybe we should just vote no untill nm checks enough. people jokeing joke i do that sometimes.

Here's the problems I have with this post and cyrus's later vote on me. He admits that he didn't see himself voting NK which was a softer defense and more palatable defense of NK rather than me straight up questioning the wagon. He was fine with, if not on, the FMFT wagon. His reads were as bad as mine. Yet, his stance isn't that "we make mistakes" as it was here with you.

He also jokes we should no eliminate until nm checks enough. If cyrus is scum, it suggests scum still has a false positive in play.

Correcting myself here a bit. Cyrus was never on the FMFT wagon. He never comments on it short of a "Hammer who" type comment. Afterwards, he says it was a bad elimination preflip.

[Titus]

Cyrus even votes me d2 for my mistake.

[Titus]

@Gamma, Thoughts on a House cyrus team?

[Titus]

@House, Why are you reacting as a sad puppy when I suspect you when you said I was one of the best at reading you?

[Titus]

Titus what happened to moon being opportunistic scum?

I am pursuing alternative theories. I still don't like your earlier play, but I don't have a method of shorting that. The no kill feels like either tmi or ridiculous to avoid a clear when the more logical conclusion was the kill was blocked. Your vote on me did feel opportunistic and now you vote one of my biggest defenders.

They might be scum though, which means you wouldn't be most likely.

[Titus]

VOTE: moon i disagree with jjh reads. so sue me.

Moon and cyrus are not partners.

This position with moon v me could be tvt with scum setting themselves up for chain eliminations.

@Gamma, I don't think this comes from a moon + cyrus scumteam.

[Titus]

I’m half tempted to vote Cyrus because IMO depending on the flip it confirms/denies certain scenarios

Not sure where Cyrus is at but I want to hear from DGB and NSG first or their replacements if possible.

[Titus]

Ugh. I just saw a minor problem with my House Cyrus scumread. Unless Cyrus didn't mention the sig bet thing, then it's unlikely their partners. Yet their push and jabs read fake to me.

:/ I think it's more likely that House and Cyrus didn't run it past each other but a reasonable person could see it differently.

[Titus]

my assumption there are only two PRs in the game.

...

WHAT???

HOW DID YOU REACH THIS COLCLUSION?

Not going to answer this for Moon, but I have suspected this myself.

[Titus]

I’ll say Titus’ posting toDay has been kinda towny

I have a break from my insanity. I'll be largely AFK from this game tomorrow (won't keep up with game speed). But tomorrow I should have more time as well.

[Titus]

my assumption there are only two PRs in the game.

...

WHAT???

HOW DID YOU REACH THIS COLCLUSION?

So we start the game with two townstumps. They each get to pick a PR = 2 PRs.

That doesn't exclude us from having more PRs.

[Titus]

In Attorney Phoenix fashion, I actually just got a theory that we have exactly two PRs but the mods designed this game with horrible balance unless they included a lawyer or something like that.

[Titus]

@Gamma, do you want to hear my theory?

[Titus]

If we suppose that Gamma, mastina, not mafia, and DGB are all clear, which they are under my theory (despite my mastina by read play is still hot garbage until I verify jjh).

That leaves us with me, cyrus, house, jjh, the hydra, and moongrass.

We miseliminate.
notmafia clears another name in the pool.
Scum kill DGB.

We're at 7 alive with 2 scum.
We have 4 names in the possible pool.
We miseliminate.
Scum kill Gamma (again sake of argument, any conftown besides not mafia works).
Not mafia clears another name in the pool.

We're at 5 alive with two scum.
2 names left in the pool.

Unless my math is off, I don't see how scum can win unless they have a secondary role that can bypass not mafia and I don't see that happening.

I think this game was just designed with crappy balance.

[Titus]

Cyrus, how can town lose here?

[Titus]

If we suppose that Gamma, mastina, not mafia, and DGB are all clear, which they are under my theory (despite my mastina by read play is still hot garbage until I verify jjh).

That leaves us with me, cyrus, house, jjh, the hydra, and moongrass.

We miseliminate.
notmafia clears another name in the pool.
Scum kill DGB.

We're at 7 alive with 2 scum.
We have 4 names in the possible pool.
We miseliminate.
Scum kill Gamma (again sake of argument, any conftown besides not mafia works).
Not mafia clears another name in the pool.

We're at 5 alive with two scum.
2 names left in the pool.

Unless my math is off, I don't see how scum can win unless they have a secondary role that can bypass not mafia and I don't see that happening.

I think this game was just designed with crappy balance.

My math is bad. I shorted us a body lol.

[Titus]

Oh wait... there is one way we lose here. Crap.

[Titus]

We miseliminate tonight.
7 v 2 - Start of night
Not Mafia visits scum.
Scum kill DGB (sake of argument)
5v 2 - Start of day
We eliminate scum
5 v 1 - Start of night
Scum kill gamma (sake of argument)
4 v 1 - Start of day
mastina, with three in the pool. Scum survive one more miselimination.

That's how scum can win.

[Titus]

@Gamma, do you want to hear my theory?

Hell yeah!
I’ve played all of AA 5 and 6 (minus 6’s special episode which I’m on the first investigation of) so I’m a sucker for a good Thought Route

The evidence we have

1) Town Stump is convinced it's an autowin
2) There was no kill last night.
3) Not Mafia can clear people.

There are only a handful of roles that warrant the suggestion that not mafia can clear people. Cop, gunsmith and weak roles. Not Mafia logically is one of these.
A cop and a gunsmith could be blocked. So can most weak roles.
That is except for a hider role.
A hider role explains the lack of a nightkill without giving town additional power.
Scum can never shoot not mafia, but not mafia dies if he targets scum.
That is unless he targets a scum who commuted (the scum isn't there to blow him up). The enabler dying loses them that protection but gives more places for not mafia to die upon.
Not mafia is not a crumber and rarely plays a straight game (which is why I think he hammered FMFT so quickly is to hide that). Yet, he consistently straight up says who he targeted. This is in case he dies.

It's near autowin if Not Mafia targets town. If he targets scum tonight we still lose. Not Mafia should be aiming for town tonight in the pool.

An additional blocking or healing role would make this game even more townsided than it already is, so it likely doesn't exist giving us precisely two power roles.

[Titus]

If he targets scum tonight we could still lose.

EBWOP

[Titus]

Query: do you think House has figured this out? I kinda feel like he pretty much has, question is how his handling of it indicates his alignment

I just came to this realization myself. Do you have any problems with the theory counselor?

[Titus]

I can think of at least 3 other things not mafia could be

Then I'd like you to challenge me on that. I'd hate to plan a breaking strategy only to have it fall apart.

[Titus]

Because right now, I think if we eliminate correctly we win.
If we miseliminate and not mafia targets town then we're closer to an auto win.
We go to 8 alive, 4 possible scum.
Miseliminate, not mafia targets scum. Night kill.
5 alive, 3 possible scum, one confirmed.
Eliminate confscum
3 alive, 1 scum alive. 1 conftown.

So scum in addition to fighting off the elimination, must convince not mafia to target a scumfuck tonight if my theory holds.

[Titus]

Well, for a start, the normal hider doesn't protect itself from anything other than killing actions, and can be roleblocked

A hider isn't present at his place. He can only be targeted at his new place. He could only be killed if he was killed along side the very townie he was hiding behind.

[Titus]

JJH is right it looks like a hider can be roleblocked upon reading the wiki.

[Titus]

It's a big assumption that scum don't have something to counteract the clears though?

That's what the commuter likely was. They could have had a roleblocker though but the question is why didn't they use it and kill not mafia?

[Titus]

What happens if scum are commuters and a Hider hides behind them?

I would assume this would generate a false clear (assuming a weak hider). A commuter is effectively a self-rolestopper. No one actually visits a commuted person.

[Titus]

If not mafia is indeed a weak hider and scum do indeed have a roleblocker, then Not Mafia's clears are not confirmed. However, unless the team is exactly Gamma + mastina (unlikely) then Gamma is certainly town. Scum would have had to roleblock not mafia both nights, but this doesn't explain the no kill. Scum wouldn't attempt to kill and block not mafia if they had indeed resolved he was a hider. He also would have died if he was roleblocked. So we can infer that if not mafia is a weak hider, then mastina is town. (if not mafia had been blocked {which is the only way he doesn't die if mastina is scum} then the scum kill goes through).

[Titus]

If not mafia is indeed a weak hider and scum do indeed have a roleblocker, then Not Mafia's clears are not confirmed. However, unless the team is exactly Gamma + mastina (unlikely) then Gamma is certainly town. Scum would have had to roleblock not mafia both nights, but this doesn't explain the no kill. Scum wouldn't attempt to kill and block not mafia if they had indeed resolved he was a hider. He also would have died if he was roleblocked. So we can infer that if not mafia is a weak hider, then mastina is town. (if not mafia had been blocked {which is the only way he doesn't die if mastina is scum} then the scum kill goes through).

[Titus]

TLDR if not mafia is a weak hider then Gamma probtown mastina conftown even with the presence of a roleblocker.

[Titus]

Well if commuting was all they had then surely they wouldn't have let NK die so easily?

That is a problem, which changes the VCA a bit but still points a nice arrow to Cyrus.

[Titus]

Vote Count 1.10

Not Known 15 (4):

mastina, DrippingGoofball, House, Free Money Free Tea,

Moongrass (3):

Gamma Emerald, Not Known 15, nomnomnom,

jjh927 (2):

Mia and Maya Fey, Titus,

Mia and Maya Fey (1):

cyrus62,

House (1):

Moongrass,

cyrus62 (0):

mastina (0):

Free Money Free Tea (0):

nomnomnom (0):

Not_Mafia (0):

Gamma Emerald (0):

Titus (0):

DrippingGoofball (0):

No Euphemization (0):

Not Voting (2):

jjh927, Not_Mafia,

With 13 alive, it takes

7

to euphemize and

7

to have no euphemization.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-06-17 17:00:00). At Deadline, currently No Euphemization will occur.

Vote Count 1.11

Not Known 15 (4):

mastina, DrippingGoofball, Free Money Free Tea, cyrus62,

Moongrass (3):

Gamma Emerald, Not Known 15, nomnomnom,

jjh927 (2):

Mia and Maya Fey, Titus,

nomnomnom (2):

House, Moongrass,

Free Money Free Tea (0):

House (0):

Mia and Maya Fey (0):

cyrus62 (0):

mastina (0):

Not_Mafia (0):

Gamma Emerald (0):

Titus (0):

DrippingGoofball (0):

No Euphemization (0):

Not Voting (2):

jjh927, Not_Mafia,

With 13 alive, it takes

7

to euphemize and

7

to have no euphemization.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-06-17 17:00:00). At Deadline, currently No Euphemization will occur.

I have a problem with these two VCs. Why wasn't moongrass pushed here?

@jjh, that theory possibly works for the nom kill but fails to explain the no kill. The second night is almost certainly scum shooting not mafia.

[Titus]

Vote Count 1.FINAL

Not Known 15 (7):

mastina, Free Money Free Tea, Mia and Maya Fey, DrippingGoofball, nomnomnom, Not_Mafia, Moongrass,

Moongrass (1):

Gamma Emerald,

Free Money Free Tea (1):

Titus,

Mia and Maya Fey (1):

Not Known 15,

Titus (1):

jjh927,

nomnomnom (0):

jjh927 (0):

House (0):

cyrus62 (0):

mastina (0):

Not_Mafia (0):

Gamma Emerald (0):

DrippingGoofball (0):

No Euphemization (0):

Not Voting (2):

House, cyrus62,

With 13 alive, it takes

7

to euphemize and

7

to have no euphemization.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-06-17 17:00:00). At Deadline, currently No Euphemization will occur.

A Hammer has been achieved!

Not Known 15 has been made into a Euphemism Day 1.

He was:

Spoiler:

Mafia Informed Commuter Enabler

Informed Commuter Enabler

You are aware that [Redacted]. If you die, any commuters will be unable to commute.

At the end of the day, the only possible scum vote on NK15 are the hydra and Moongrass. The hydra is on far too early unless they deliberately bussed their enhancer role which is unlikely.

Moongrass could have resigned but then why point me back towards the vca?

[Titus]

my poe is titus jjh and moon.

Why is House not part of your PoE when he's been protecting me so hard?
Who should not mafia target tonight provided we lynch town and he is a weak hider?

[Titus]

NM could be a loyal combined doctor checker

Scum might conceivably have shot someone else

Something I haven't considered might have happened (likely option when you consider that nom was killed N1)

Loyal combined doctor cop? Something like that. NM could be roleblocked and thus the stump wouldn't be confident on autowin. Second, that requires scum to have directly shot at mastina. mastina has done zilch and is afk probably partially for personal reasons even if she's scum. There's no way scum target mastina for a nightkill here.

[Titus]

Titus, are you accounting for the wagons as they built rather than just the end result? Almost everyone in the game was on the NK15 wagon at some point

Yes. House and Cyrus were both off the wagon at the end, never on at the same time either.

[Titus]

Titus, are you accounting for the wagons as they built rather than just the end result? Almost everyone in the game was on the NK15 wagon at some point

Yes. House and Cyrus were both off the wagon at the end, never on at the same time either.

According to the VCs anyway, they did both unvote at the same time in thread.

[Titus]

Scum would target Mastina for a nightkill because Not Mafia said he would target her and scum had all the same reason you have right now to suspect he is a weak hider

The evidence for not mafia being a weak hider came only after the failed night kill. Not mafia being a cop or some other weak role maybe but hider specifically wouldn't happen until the nightkill failed.

[Titus]

He was saying who he was targeting

Yes, but that foundation applies as much n1 as it did n2. If there was enough evidence to suspect notmafia of being a hider n2, it existed n1 and then the nom kill makes no sense. A gamma kill would have happened instead.

[Titus]

Never mind he follows up with this

seems like a frame up. who was pushing for moon the most?

He checks the thread temperature before doing so though.

[Titus]

Other than to frame Moongrass

In case I die, I'd like to highlight this post

Your entrance posts seem a little more proactive than what I thought would be normal for you NK15. That yawn in particular seemed like posting for the sake of posting. Am I wrong?

if NK does indeed flip scum then this post is likely coming from scum distancing early given the seemingly laser precise reasoning on some early game comment, and that comment also sticks out in the fact that

Moongrass does not have a game played with NK15 in her topic history

. So this is potentially some hard TMI right there.

Wait
IT’S BEEN CLEAR SINCE D1 MOON IS AN ALT. WHY ARE WE USING THE BOLDED AS EVIDENCE?????

We're not using it for the truth of the matter asserted but for its reaction on the scumteam.

[Titus]

I'm just rereading the fake guilty from House on Cyrus and I feel it looks really bad for both parties

That's their whole play. That's why I asked House when he started townreading Cyrus. His response didn't fill me with enthusiasm. Cyrus's reply on why he's townreading House doesn't either.

Basically, the only play here for either of them is to promote each other to the highest reads in the PoE. Then one of them would die but so would not mafia. If not mafia lives and targets town both nights, then their miselimination efforts still fail because there would be too many conftown to survive in.

[Titus]

Like, I'm sure House knows his way around scum theatre but I think Cyrus would fail the audition for background tree #5

That would answer the whole sig bet thing. House would never approve that coming off from a ban but if it was just spontaneous from Cyrus, them's the breaks.

[Titus]

Other than to frame Moongrass

In case I die, I'd like to highlight this post

Your entrance posts seem a little more proactive than what I thought would be normal for you NK15. That yawn in particular seemed like posting for the sake of posting. Am I wrong?

if NK does indeed flip scum then this post is likely coming from scum distancing early given the seemingly laser precise reasoning on some early game comment, and that comment also sticks out in the fact that

Moongrass does not have a game played with NK15 in her topic history

. So this is potentially some hard TMI right there.

Wait
IT’S BEEN CLEAR SINCE D1 MOON IS AN ALT. WHY ARE WE USING THE BOLDED AS EVIDENCE?????

We're not using it for the truth of the matter asserted but for its reaction on the scumteam.

Okay well in THAT CASE House has to be town right?

Error in Code: Objection! Relevance? Conclusion from left field?

[Titus]

At any rate Cyrus is pretty much lockscum

He doesn't have a read on Mia but they're not in the POE
He exclusively seems to scumread all possible elims in a given day and not really have any opinions outside of that

+1, I think he's persuaded by my arguments and knows that Mia is a great target for Not Mafia to hide behind but he just suddenly needed to knock them down.

[Titus]

But seriously, House faked a tracker guilty on Cyrus, who reacts with a bit of nonsense and the assertion that it's a fake guilty without even considering that House could be scum OR claiming a role

How does that happen organically

It's not organic. House just completely stops the push to change directions to push some nonsense about how I'm scum because I assumed there was an investigative role in the game. He doesn't get reactions from half the thread and doesn't wait to actually generate discussion on cyrus before outing the alleged guilty.

[Titus]

Iirc you and Grey were also in that game and in fact CENTRAL to the fuck-up my partner made!

Yeah I was right about this
It was Open 661 Pick Your Poison

How old are we going? Have I played 100 or more games since then?

[Titus]

I don't believe House makes up a guilty here.

I've clearly been away for too long.

Maybe not FMFT actually

Might be a scum in my townreads

But Titus is very likely to be scum here. I think her stance on NK15 has been that she doesn't want to bus but she will if it reaches that point

could we focus on nk15 as a flip there would add fire to who i think is scum..

UNVOTE:

...

Interesting.

i dont want a hammer till we know for sure. nm wants it bad that pings me

Nm would hammer his mother.

Also, I don't think we should do this. Hammering a commuter claim is garbage. We can just tell NK15 to not commute so we can investigate him. If he complies, we have an unkillable town slot. If he claims compulsive or refuses, then yeet his ass.

Titus is town.

Thing is, how does Titus even know we have an investigative role at all, considering she's not a stump?

Maybe not FMFT actually

Might be a scum in my townreads

But Titus is very likely to be scum here. I think her stance on NK15 has been that she doesn't want to bus but she will if it reaches that point

could we focus on nk15 as a flip there would add fire to who i think is scum..

UNVOTE:

...

Interesting.

i dont want a hammer till we know for sure. nm wants it bad that pings me

Nm would hammer his mother.

Also, I don't think we should do this. Hammering a commuter claim is garbage. We can just tell NK15 to not commute so we can investigate him. If he complies, we have an unkillable town slot. If he claims compulsive or refuses, then yeet his ass.

Titus is town.

Thing is, how does Titus even know we have an investigative role at all, considering she's not a stump?

I believed your tracker claim? Afterwards I reset that.

Wrong answer. 2015 happened on d1. Gambit happened at opening of d2.

You're scum with TMI. I'm good with eliminating you & FMFT.

What does that have to do with your gambit?

You based your excuse for assuming there was an investigative role on my d2 gambit, but you leaked knowledge of an investigative role in d1, before my gambit occurred.

You pulled your explanation out of thin air.

What does that have to do with your gambit?

You based your excuse for assuming there was an investigative role on my d2 gambit, but you leaked knowledge of an investigative role in d1, before my gambit occurred.

You pulled your explanation out of thin air.

Supposing an investigative role exists is pretty normal. An investigative role would have got a guilty anyway.

And that would have been a much better explanation than trying to point at my play a day after you made that post.

What does that have to do with your gambit?

You based your excuse for assuming there was an investigative role on my d2 gambit, but you leaked knowledge of an investigative role in d1, before my gambit occurred.

You pulled your explanation out of thin air.

Supposing an investigative role exists is pretty normal. An investigative role would have got a guilty anyway.

And that would have been a much better explanation than trying to point at my play a day after you made that post.

You specifically accused me of knowing that you were an investigator, not that one existed generally.

When did that happen?

I wasn't even sus at all until 2169, and I didn't even mention or even think about my gambit in that post.

Titus and House both town misunderstanding each other lol.

Not every extended back and forth is TvT.

VOTE: Titus

Kinda want to try something completely different

This is because you know NK15 is town.

I don’t think this fake.

I don't think it would be fake for her to soft defend her buddy, either.

Subtle deflection makes more sense coming from scum than town.

VOTE: Titus

Kinda want to try something completely different

This is because you know NK15 is town.

I don’t think this fake.

If she really thought NK was town, what did she actually do to try and derail the wagon?

[Titus]

You can continue to read House's ISO and you'll get the him and Fey's reactions.

I included the first two posts because there's less than 20 minutes between the tonal shift

[Titus]

Is the Cyrus wagon still just jjh and Titus?

I thought it had more but I honestly don't remember. I'm being bad and posting too much.

[Titus]

VLA Until Sunday

I think thread health would be better for it. Plus it's date night and then DnD day. There's no way I'm keeping up with the game speed.

[Titus]

I think if jjh is confirmed town, it’s an autowin. Anyone disagree?

If cyrus is scum, it's usually an autowin.
If cyrus is town, and jjh is town, it's not autowin but it's pretty close.

If the above is true, scum have to mislynch tomorrow and have not mafia incorrectly target scum tomorrow.

[Titus]

Please check in {Titus, House, Hydra or me} it's a waste to check jjh.

I'd actually advocate for NM checking the hydra. The goal is to remove the town from the theoretical scumpool to create an autowin, not kill not mafia.

[Titus]

I'm just rereading the fake guilty from House on Cyrus and I feel it looks really bad for both parties

Yeah, we totally choreographed that exchange.

Is this a resignation or sarcasm?

[Titus]

Like, I'm sure House knows his way around scum theatre but I think Cyrus would fail the audition for background tree #5

That would answer the whole sig bet thing. House would never approve that coming off from a ban but if it was just spontaneous from Cyrus, them's the breaks.

And why wouldn't I tell him to knock it off in scum chat instead of make a scene over it?

Make the best out of a bad situation.

[Titus]

I'll compromise

If cyrus flips town, I'll check jjh
If cyrus flips scum, I'll check Feydra

Works for me.

[Titus]

I don't see why town!House votes there.

[Titus]

I don't understand how a commuter died.

Commuter was disabled when nk died.

I don't know how scum got two kills.

[Titus]

We're at mylo possibly. It's bed time for me. No one do anything rash.

[Titus]

I'm in the position where scum must be defending me. Mastina's reads are wrong, so gamma would be shot. That leaves mastina as the wrong voter.

With scum defending me though, that means they presume that I would decide wrong as well (or at least not persuade mastina of my towniness).

The goal for me today has to be sorting moongrass. I know at least one scum is defending me. If both scum are defending me, that means moongrass is town and will be the suggested miselimination.

There's no point in no elimination as just gamma or mastina will be killed.

This leaves my suggestion that the four of us in the pool try to sort ourselves out. Once we reach a decision, then conftown chime in.