Townstumps Mafia (Endgame)

[northsidegal]

ego

[northsidegal]

i'm of the opinion that townstumps are better used as people we want bulletproof rather than some kind of pre-emptive investigation, or choice for people we think will be hard to sort. i feel as though using it that way is more akin to choosing someone to just remove from the game rather than choosing a voice we want around for the entire game

[northsidegal]

I'd have to disagree here. I think making someone like NM, who nobody is gonna really have a good time sorting is perfectly valid.
Plus I know NM is a good player, so making them a stump would force them to have to actually play more or less, since we'd be expecting on them to lead town a bit.

i disagree strongly with the notion that NM or players like him cannot be sorted

i also think that risk of death is a more effective encouragement to post in general. all of my experience with treestumps and stump-like roles suggests as such

[northsidegal]

No one's actually trying because they might roll scum.

you're more likely to roll town than scum, so it seems to make more sense to elect a stump that would help you more as town than to not try that because you might roll scum

[northsidegal]

I still think vigilante mason is really powerful, because it removes the aspect of a vigilante shot being on town, because now you have *two* people thinking about it, on top of the treestumps knowing about the vigilante shot, and able to direct it accordingly

i'm not really convinced that just having two people to discuss a vig shot really "removes" the aspect of shots being on town. i also think that, in general, directing vig shots or making public votes on them is less effective than simply leaving it up to the vigilante—mith was the one who first introduced me to this logic.

ok, wiki actually gives conflicting information.

@mod will a strongman targeting a hider who is hiding kill them, or does the kill fail?

this is just a personal curiosity—where do you see conflicting information on the wiki? my understanding—and what i would tell to anyone making a normal setup—would be that a strongman would be able to kill a hider, the kill wouldn't fail.

[northsidegal]

i don't think trying to go "low-powered" is a very good idea. mountainous itself is really bad for town in-practice (regardless of the calculated EV), but more relevant is the fact that town gets a

lot

more out of power roles than scum do – it's sort of a natural element of skew in favor of town that exists in normal games. even the best scum roles really can either only block town roles or gain information about them and these aren't really that high-value for scum, but the best town roles can reveal people's alignments and even kill scum, which are super high value.

we definitely should be adding a high-power role to the setup even if scum get balanced to be more powerful because of it – town benefits a lot more from power roles than scum do anyways.

[northsidegal]

@nsg

It is, however, trumped by roles that prevent the victim from being targeted at all, namely Commuter and Hider.

A Strongman cannot be stopped from performing a kill, unless their target has commuted

it links specifically to commuter as well in the second quote on the wiki, and doesn't say "unless their target has commuted or hides" or something to that effect

i think that might be a remnant of how hiders work in some open setups. in normal games, strongmen are only stopped by commuters, as said under the "normal guidelines" section. it is a bit confusing to have it say something different in the lede than in the normal guidelines section, so i might change it a bit.

[northsidegal]

@jingle

, will the setup itself be normal, or is it just the role submitted by the stumps which has to be normal?

[northsidegal]

VOTE: northsidegal

[northsidegal]

woah, we have so many people in this game whose usernames start with "N"

pretty unusual, right?

[northsidegal]

VOTE: moongrass

[northsidegal]

Why Moongrass, nsg?

i think moon's a great player

[northsidegal]

Why Moongrass, nsg?

i think moon's a great player

If I can get details about this I’m probably willing to go with it

shrug

just had a game with moon where we were both on scum d1 and she correctly called out the partner before getting shot n1 (because of a power role, but still)

not sure how much moon even wants to be a stump this game but yeah

[northsidegal]

so NM be honest

if / when you're a stump, your very first post is going to be exiting the game, right

how could you call yourself a true troll if it wasn't

[northsidegal]

personally i would appreciate the humor

[northsidegal]

pagebottom

[northsidegal]

VOTE: not mafia

[northsidegal]

i mean like uhhhhh cmon NSG don't be selfish.

it's not about being selfish or "getting power for myself" or anything

despite what you might think i actually do have respect for NM's play - in one of my earliest games he cop investigated two members of the scumteam, so i've always both had respect for his pr play and believed that his reads themselves are probably better than random.

given that moon doesn't want to be stumped, that reduces my options. i trust that dgb is good but don't really have a great personal idea of her play, so if her wagon gets close i'm fine with it. jjh i would like, but i also think that i can read him well, so that seems non-optimal. mastina i'd also vote for, but there seems to be no will there. so, given all that, i'm voting nm. it's not just so he leaves.

[northsidegal]

I’m feeling spoilt from the mafia universe site. You can literally request an VC at anytime and it just posts automatically.
Is Koba hydra hammered? I’m too lazy to check.

I believe it is.

it's 4/4 nm and hydra, if my count is right

[northsidegal]

VOTE: norwee

[northsidegal]

We're voting to euphemise people? Like, to make a euphemism of them?

That's what I got from the role PM too haha.

subtle

[northsidegal]

NSG you here?

yep

thoughts: i think that the current spat between you jjh and the hydra is unproductive. i trust jjh on mastina more than i do anyone else in the game. think house leans scum.

[northsidegal]

my understanding is that koba is something of an inflammatory player (no offense). i suggest you ignore any snipes directed at you.

[northsidegal]

I'll just drop that scum think I'm an easy push in games because I am very aggressive and have an unorthodox playstyle. I would surely hope that isn't any of you trying to shade me right now.

How is this not screaming scum to you NSG? Lol. It's actually kind of sad.

i'm pretty much deferring from reading the hydra until nancy posts more, which i think is probably a higher reliability strategy.

[northsidegal]

my understanding is that koba is something of an inflammatory player (no offense). i suggest you ignore any snipes directed at you.

Upset scum make more mistakes

and upset townies can cause losses that otherwise should have been wins. also, in general, upsetting players probably leads to a less fun game for everyone involved.

[northsidegal]

Nah, I'm not buying that for one simple reason.

Our first game together, you called me town out of nowhere when I was being wagoned and sold it. You're townread of me was based on a lack of scum notice in my incredibly scummy playstyle. You had zero history with me.

That's what so impressed me about your skill. It's very rare to find a player that hunts for motive instead of pigeon-holing actions as "scummy" or "towny".

I'm not seeing that here, and it makes me sad.

do you think that mastina has "pigeon-holed" you as being scummy or towny? she was pretty clear in the motivation behind her vote on you.

[northsidegal]

I never claimed nor implied mastina pigeon-holed anyone or anything.

Try again.

if you'll excuse my saying, i think the "try again" is a little overly passive aggressive here given that you know that i'm town, and given that i wasn't

saying

anything about what you said, i was literally

asking

if that was what you were saying. just saying "no, that wasn't what i meant" would be enough.

so, to continue asking: what aspect of mastina's play that you recognized before do you think you aren't seeing here, and where is it manifested?

Good thing I can identify out who the townies are that are upset before endgame then.

you should really be careful with that level of hubris.

[northsidegal]

gosh you guys post way too much

reads as of page 40:
{nsg, norwee, dgb}
{jjh}
{mastina, moon, nancy, NM}
{gamma}
{nk15, FMFT, cyrus, titus, house} - null
{nom}

keep in mind this is a relative list not an absolute one

[northsidegal]

hahaha

[northsidegal]

would it make you feel better if i told you that you're both equally mysterious and enigmatic?

[northsidegal]

okay, i'm caught up.

{nsg, norwee, dgb}
{jjh}
{nancy, cyrus}
{moon, NM, mastina}
{gamma, house}
{nk15, FMFT, titus} - null
{nom}

hopefully i don't jinx us, but i feel decently confident that this game should be a town win.

[northsidegal]

this is a sort of curious wagon composition we have going on right now.

anyone have any thoughts on it? i have a few of my own, but i'm interested to hear other people's first

[northsidegal]

to be clear, thoughts on the composition of the wagons, not on the wagons themselves

[northsidegal]

I disagree that valuable wagon analysis is only possible under imminent threat of death. I think there are plenty of games with plenty of counterexamples that contradict that idea.

[northsidegal]

i think calling it "vca" is a little misleading / missing the point - i'm moreso looking at the wagons as a whole rather than any individual votes in the context of knowing someone's alignment

although, i guess that still could be said to be vca, and to be fair i haven't even explained really what i'm thinking

[northsidegal]

man, it really makes me miss ankamius when people think that looking at the formation of wagons is useless unless you have a flip. does nobody think that gamestate analysis is possible or useful?

anyways, i think that NK15 is a pretty bad vote. he's d1 lynchbait in a

lot

of games which is weak evidence that he's town in this game, but the more salient point for me is that based on the wagons earlier i think it almost just doesn't make sense for him to be scum, unless his partners decided to immediately hardbus him (which i think is unlikely). the jjh wagon didn't form in response to NK's wagon, it was actually there before his wagon formed. so the question is, if NK is scum, what are his partners doing?

you guys might think this analysis is pretty weak, and that's fine. i'm not explaining it the best – i historically haven't often done gamestate reads. it just stood out to me as being particularly relevant given that almost everyone was on either jjh or NK, but i already am almost entirely sure jjh is town, and even without that based on the gamestate it didn't really feel like one of these was a scum wagon that was being fought against by some people.

[northsidegal]

The fact that NK has completely ignored his wagon in favor of voting up a slot I am convinced is complete mislim bait is also making me comfortable in my vote here.

why does he vote cyrus instead of the JJH counterwagon?

[northsidegal]

Yeah like, it feels like Moonshot decided to townread Gamma here, but then forgot their initial fabricated read and now decided to scumread Gamma

. And double the points by them going full Zuckerberg instead of answering a very simple discrepancy.
I would vote Moonshot here.

1) i think that scum almost never ever do the bolded
2) moon did something almost exactly the same in the last game that i played with her, with seeming read shifts from someone being voted shifting instantly to being at the top of her readslist. i similarly asked and could not get an answer out of her for why it had happened. just wanted to give some perspective.

[northsidegal]

I'm not in his mind so I can't say for sure but the fact that he has voted there after quoting a jjh post makes me think that scum!him could just be piggybacking off a player's read, and as I said, Cyrus is that kind of player who will attract votes entirely on play and posting style so it's an easy vote to make. Certainly easier than voting jjh here I'd say.
Do you think he's town?
If you do, you have a version of your game that has jjh/moon/nk all as town, so I would be curious as to where you think the scum would be in a world where that is the case
pedit: I've thought numerous times that it could simply be that moon is exhibiting some classic town read shift but what makes me unsure is his insistence on avoiding the question altogether. In my mind if he's town he would have no trouble telling me something he told norwee? Instead he went on a tirade about how unfun I am to play against when I was simply asking questions, so basically the question in my mind really is "would town!moon be this annoyed by me right about now?"

saying that his play there is "scum piggybacking off a player's read" is a narrative in which he's scum, but not an

explanation

for

why

he chose to do that instead of voting his counterwagon.

jjh is almost assuredly town, i think, and i'm leaning towards moon and NK both being town. scum is primarily in you right now i think, but in general i get the feeling that scum just aren't doing much in this gamestate.

[northsidegal]

Did Moongrass also try to hard discredit you and scumread you when you asked why their progression was odd in that previous game NSG?

she claimed mason and tried to 1v1 me.

eventually we settled our differences and we both voted scum that day.

[northsidegal]

it means i scumread nom

[northsidegal]

i'd appreciate if people would unvote, at least for now

[northsidegal]

that is why i asked someone to unvote

[northsidegal]

NSG wanna talk more about Moon?

I can talk more later. In short, I think I have a lot more authority than you do to talk about moon's behavior here and I you really shouldn't be just dismissing that, especially as "just meta".

[northsidegal]

VOTE: FMFT

Not mafia
Nom
House
Gamma
Cyrus
Feys
Titus
NK15
FMFT
Jjh
Mastina

Yikes.

Nsg the game makes a lot more sense if jjh is scum. Fitting a team around nom doesn't work.

think you can try to explain this one? pretty sure you're just wrong here

[northsidegal]

shrug

i hate to make comments like that because they're classical hubris and set me up to potentially look stupid if i'm wrong (and just in general it's not how i expect to convince people), but i do think that people are ignoring me in this game just because my reads sort of diverge from consensus and they don't want to deal with that.

[northsidegal]

Well i've never played with you before so if NSG is that convinced i'll consider that. But that doesn't mean i'm treating all their words as gospel.

for the record, i'm not absolutely convinced that moon is town. the main point that i've been trying to get across is that the main thing that moon seems to be being scumread for (i.e. the crazy read shifts) is not a convincing reason to believe that she's scum. i

just went through this

literally the last game that i played just before this one – i thought the exact same thing that you do now, that there were these crazy read shifts from voting someone to instantly top townreading that person, and moon wouldn't explain them when i asked. i was proven wrong, so now i know that that model for reading moon is ineffective.

[northsidegal]

Do you have a lot of experience with jjh nsg?

pretty much, yeah. as he indicated himself, i have a pretty good (if not perfect) record of correctly reading him as both town or scum here. i understand that his scum meta has improved a lot from the very first game i played with him years ago, but i would still fairly confidently say that his play this game has fallen within his town meta here. even beyond just pure meta, i think that he's made a lot of comments that i would almost never expect from scum.

[northsidegal]

even beyond just pure meta, i think that he's made a lot of comments that i would almost never expect from scum.

for instance, this comment:

Sadly, you are mistaken. I cannot be elimed in this game, because this is a shining example of my towngame and NSG is one of the treestumps

i think that someone who is scum and in the position that jjh is in this game would almost never make this comment. i say this in part based on my own experience – as someone with relatively distinct town and scum metas (as jjh also is), making this comment would just not be something that i'd do. in games where i'm scum, i recognize that my play is going to be distinct from what people expect of my town play, so i would either try to get ahead of it by making some excuse about why my play is different in advance (such as "i'm trying a new playstyle") or i would just never so confidently declare that i'm playing my town game. furthermore, there

have

been games where i've made almost exactly the same comment as town: that i am unambiguously playing my towngame and that other people in the playerlist who know me should recognize this and would never vote for me.

[northsidegal]

I'd love to cooperate with you NSG because I know your reads are somewhat sharp, but in this case you believe I am scum, which is obviously wrong, so it's harder for me to do so

i think that you said earlier that you didn't care to try to convince me that you were town. i'm curious – why is that?

[northsidegal]

I think I'm warming up on town!moon, possibly, and I think the scums could be elsewhere considering the gamestate, I think a push on FMFT is not a bad idea

i don't believe this, for the record.

[northsidegal]

almost nobody on site plays like scum RC, the comment may be similar but using that as a model for evaluation doesn't make sense because jjh isn't an RC-like player.

[northsidegal]

If I had rolled scum here I'd be playing to make sure nsg and mastina townread me.

this isn't an argument, it's just poisoning the well. if i rolled scum in a game i would play to make sure that RC and moon and mathdino and everyone who's ever known me would townread me, but i can't, so i don't.

What's your read on FMFT?

Has it changed from null?

i think he slightly leans town. i find the vote shifts that happened onto him in the past two pages incredibly noteworthy.

[northsidegal]

or i would just never so confidently declare that i'm playing my town game. furthermore, there have been games where i've made almost exactly the same comment as town: that i am unambiguously playing my towngame and that other people in the playerlist who know me should recognize this and would never vote for me.

Then i think your scumgame is just really low. As i’ve identified slots that are strong townplayers and confidently sure they would correctly townread me and done what i can to pocket them by saying: "this is obviously my towngame" when i am scum, and it’s worked like an charm. What makes JJ and i uncapable of something you cannot?

almost nothing in mafia is about whether or not something is capable of something, it's about the probabilities. the

probability

that

any

town player with somewhat distinct towngames and scumgames would make a comment like that is—in my estimation—low, for the reasons that i said there. thus, i consider it town-indicative. you aren't the same kind of player as jjh is or as i am, so i wouldn't apply the same analysis to you that i would to him. just the same way i said that moon shouldn't apply the same analysis she would to scum!RC to jjh.

[northsidegal]

If I had rolled scum here I'd be playing to make sure nsg and mastina townread me.

Very good point actually.

it's not.

[northsidegal]

to be clear, i've never said that it's impossible for jjh to be scum. my argument—as it always is—is that i see the evidence for him being town as being relatively strong, and the evidence for him being scum to be fairly weak or nonexistent.

[northsidegal]

norwee, do you think that jjh is scum or no? if the answer is no then i'm sorry but i don't think that it's an effective use of my time to get into a discussion about whether or not people have metas at all and whether or not meta is an effective tool, which i think it unambiguously is.

[northsidegal]

I guess it makes sense for you to claim players are different, but in that case.

also, for the record – my analysis of other people's play has nothing to do with me always projecting how i play or think onto others, or whatever you seem to be implying here. i made a comparison between jjh and myself because there was a salient comparison to make in that case.

again, i hate to make arrogant comments like this, but i won paragon for a reason, and that reason

wasn't

because i assume everyone thinks like me.

[northsidegal]

@house sorry i don't have anything great to point to there for you, it's a weak gut read.

Also, nothing makes me less wanting of listening to anyone's arguments than: "I won an paragon".

Sheesh.

To be

exceedingly

clear, my argument for JJH being town has

nothing at all

to do with the fact that I won paragon, or any claim of superior general ability to anyone else. The

specific point

I was making when I brought that up was to counter

your

implication that I was incorrectly projecting my own mindset or playstyle onto other players when it was not applicable, which you asserted without evidence. This has

nothing

to do with my reads on anyone or attempting to convince someone on a read. It's

specifically

to the contrary of you directly impugning my skills based on nothing at all.

Again, to reiterate: you implied that I fallaciously assume that people always think or play like me. I countered this notion, offering the

evidence

that it's unlikely that someone can become paragon via assuming that people always think or play like them.

[northsidegal]

Guys, nom is scum.

[northsidegal]

Sure, let's try this socratically. Also, in the future, if you hate it when people bring up evidence that they're at least alright at mafia, please don't imply that people are bad based on nothing at all. It's really quite bothering.

Or do we just give it up for the almighty NSG and lim Nomnom here.

Never once

have I expected people to follow me based purely on who I am or based on some claim that I'm better than others. I make specific point not to do this because I greatly dislike arrogant people, so it really really bothers me for you to imply otherwise.

I

have

claimed that I have some "authority" when it comes to reading moon and jjh. This is because I've played with these players before, and have both a lot of relevant information when it comes to determining their alignment, as well as a lot of experience in doing so. It's not because I'm better than anyone else.

Please stop making comments like this. It really is quite upsetting.



So, let's get back to explaining JJH socratically. Question 1: do you think that it's possible to sort people based on meta?

[northsidegal]

I've never claimed to be better than anyone else. In fact, in basically every scenario when people say that they expect me to solve the game for them or whatever, I tell them to not think of me that way.

To reiterate again,

you implied

that I project the way that I play or think onto other people, blinding me to the way that they play. You asserted this without evidence. I feel that this is an unfair thing to assert about someone, especially without bringing up any sort of evidence. It's quite an upsetting thing to say to someone. The

only reason

that I brought up that I won paragon is because it is evidence against the idea that I'm unable to evaluate other players without projecting my own play onto them. It was not brought up to get someone to follow any of my reads. It was brought up to counter an unfair attack on me.

[northsidegal]

Nsg that's where you ignore the other person. We all know you're great, can you please redirect onto if my wagon was a counter and what nom scum means for NK?

This isn't about me proving that I'm great, it's the exact opposite. I don't care if people think that I'm bad or not. It upsets me slightly to have people impugn my skills, but it upsets me a

lot

more to have someone imply that I'm this arrogant person bragging about her accomplishments, because that goes against everything that I stand for as a person. It's completely contrary to everything about how I hold myself. I don't even know what kind of comparison I could make to get this across. I believe in humility so much and have always tried to act in accordance to that. I just really don't appreciate someone casually implying otherwise.

[northsidegal]

To be exceedingly clear, my argument for JJH being town has nothing at all to do with the fact that I won paragon, or any claim of superior general ability to anyone else. The specific point I was making when I brought that up was to counter your implication that I was incorrectly projecting my own mindset or playstyle onto other players when it was not applicable, which you asserted without evidence. This has nothing to do with my reads on anyone or attempting to convince someone on a read. It's specifically to the contrary of you directly impugning my skills based on nothing at all.

Then

EXPLAIN

it. The reason i'm doing this in the first place is because you're mostly just saying JJH is town and when i asked why you just bring up your authority on the matter and that you are awesome at reading those players instead of explaining exactly what it is that proves your case.

I have explained it: 1667, 1672, 1679, 1684. In

none

of those posts do I "just bring up [my] authority on the matter". It is indeed a fact that I have a good record on reading jjh, but nowhere do I expect someone to just take that as justification alone. (For the record, I do actually think that it probably makes sense to trust someone you know is town on a read that they're claiming a good record on—it's a Mathdino style read—but nowhere do I

expect

someone to do that).

The things you're saying about what I'm saying are just not accurate and in the future I would appreciate if you would either directly quote where you think I'm doing those things when you say things like that, or stop making those kinds of accusations.

And so like I was trying to do in 1714, let me try to explain my point and why I disagree with 1691 socratically. So, question: do you think it's possible to sort people based on meta?

[northsidegal]

Guys, nom is scum.

Consider things here.
You
A: Consider yourself an extremely humble, yet talented player. As evidenced by you pointing out your own paragon, yet disliking to do so.
B: You case JJH as town and Nom as scum, with BARELY any sort of reasoning whatsoever. I can even remember back during my first game of mafia on this site called Haunted Village you popped in and claimed i was town without explaining the reasoning why, and yet a lot of people got cold feet and stopped pushing my wagon. You have this incredible weight behind your push and yet it's like i cannot see into your mind at all, why are your reads what they are? What do you base them on? How am i supposed to know your read on JJ or Nom is something i'd agree with when all you brought to the table with Nom was "Guys, nom is scum" and when you put them on the bottom of your unexplained readslist in your very first mention of Nom in the game. And now already a lot of players are sheeping you and calling Nom scum because you just said so. I find it incredibly odd and also wrong for a player to have this much influence and yet give so little in terms of actual analysis.

The key point that you're missing here is that I don't have any expectation that people have to follow me on my nom read. I know that I haven't really explained it. Is it now "arrogant" to just state a read?

You're just making up this ridiculous standard. I posted my readslist earlier because I figured that people would at least appreciate seeing where I was at, I didn't post it with the expectation that anyone has to follow me on anything. Again, you're just making things up and I would really appreciate if you would stop.

[northsidegal]

to be clear, it doesn't bother me

if

people decide to run with things that i say even if i don't justify them that much, i just have absolutely no expectation that people should do this

[northsidegal]

i would also argue that even if i don't justify something, if my just saying something brings it up as a possibility in people's mind and they investigate it themselves and come to my same conclusion, that can still be an instance of playing effectively

[northsidegal]

for the record, i don't really tend to do that intentionally, it just could be said to still be playing effectively.

[northsidegal]

This is probably going to make nsg feel depressed or something but I can't help but have the feeling this game has done a 180 on me ever since she made that "nom is scum" post
Power of influence eh?

Seems to disprove mastina's theory that voteless players have no influence.

i think you're misrepresenting the point mastina was making. my understanding of her point was that some players have their influence manifest through their vote more than others. for instance, i think a lot of people would agree that a lot of NM's influence in a game is manifested through his vote, so taking that away from him would take away a lot of his influence as a player. her conclusion was then that the best stumps were players who had a minimal amount of influence removed from the removal of a vote.

[northsidegal]

for the record, i don't really tend to do that intentionally, it just could be said to still be playing effectively.

Assuming Nom is scum and you didn’t just open the floodgates for all mafia to pile on a Nom wagon.

the point that i was making in the general sense, not specifically as regards this game or as regards nom.

also, what you're saying would be applicable to any scumread that i made with any degree of explanation behind it. i don't understand what point you're really trying to make, so it seems more that you're just trying to take jabs at me.

[northsidegal]

"I will never be eliminated because NSG is in this game!" Is practically an example of the sort of WIFOMY statement scum!JJ makes if he knows he can’t obvtown as well as usual so he finds an overly dramatic and confident way of declaring himself town to pocket NSG and hopefully stay alive regardless of his play.

do you have some information regarding JJH specifically as a player to make the claim that that is the sort of statement that scum!JJH makes, or are you making this statement based on what you yourself would do and assuming that JJH would do the same thing?

[northsidegal]

i am unfortunately getting the feeling that some of your play right now is being driven by spite towards me rather than primarily a good faith effort to win the game for town. this is especially unfortunate because i hold none of the same sort of animosity towards you. the things you've alleged about me have upset me a lot because they go against everything that stand for and consider important, but i hold no hatred towards you or desire to tear you down. my only wish is for you to stop making comments of that nature, and perhaps to make more of a good faith effort to really understand the points that i'm trying to get across.

[northsidegal]

for the record, i had a really long post typed up responding in-depth to 1758, but my computer crashed literally right as i was previewing it, which was disheartening to the point that i wasn't up to re-make it earlier in the day. i'm not intentionally ignoring you (just in case you think that i am), nor would i ever deliberately play to provoke or upset you, or anyone. unfortunately, i'm not getting the same feeling back from you.

[northsidegal]

I feel like you’re now avoiding the answer to the questions i seek by being overly pre-occupied with my tone when i only really seek the answer to the questions i’ve asked and though my tone may be rough it usually is when i’m heavily engaged in a game of mafia.

nothing that i'm saying regards your tone. the points i've been making have specifically been about the hurtful things you've alleged about me, and the fact that it seems like some of your recent posting is driven more by a spite towards me than by a desire to win the game for town.

"I will never be eliminated because NSG is in this game!" Is practically an example of the sort of WIFOMY statement scum!JJ makes if he knows he can’t obvtown as well as usual so he finds an overly dramatic and confident way of declaring himself town to pocket NSG and hopefully stay alive regardless of his play.

do you have some information regarding JJH specifically as a player to make the claim that that is the sort of statement that scum!JJH makes, or are you making this statement based on what you yourself would do and assuming that JJH would do the same thing?

Yes, and i’m bringing it up as an possibility to disprove your case on JJ town as i have seen players claiming to have good read accuracy on "player" be wrong before. So why should you be right when i do not receive an better answer other than the plain one. Which is that you just know because you are experienced with JJ.

it's a little difficult to reconcile your saying that you believe players can be sorted by meta with the things that you're saying here. the fact that some players that have claimed to have good accuracy on a player have been wrong in the past is—absent any other compelling evidence—not really strong evidence to doubt any individual claim, unless you just wholesale don't believe in meta sorting people.

i'm going to re-ask my question, because i'm not sure that i really see a clear answer to it here. you made the claim that what JJH said is "practically an example of the sort of WIFOMY statement scum~JJ makes if...". the question i'm asking is this: do you have some

specific

information about JJH as a player that leads to you making this claim? or is this statement based primarily off of your own scumplay and the belief that JJH would do something similar?

[northsidegal]

Your claim that i feel spite towards you is wrong.

i don't know whether or not you do. what i've been saying is that, based on the things you've been posting, that explanation seems to primarily fit the evidence better than other explanations.

i am glad to hear from you that you don't, but really what i care about is the evidence—that is, the posting—shifting to match that claim.

[northsidegal]

i'm going to re-ask my question, because i'm not sure that i really see a clear answer to it here. you made the claim that what JJH said is "practically an example of the sort of WIFOMY statement scum~JJ makes if...". the question i'm asking is this: do you have some specific information about JJH as a player that leads to you making this claim? or is this statement based primarily off of your own scumplay and the belief that JJH would do something similar?

It’s based on what i think JJ would be doing if he rolled scum and tries to win the game as scum.

Okay. What would you say if I told you that—in my experience—players who have fairly distinct town and scum games don't tend to make comments like this? If I told you that, given that me and JJH are relatively similar players in terms of how we've been pushed as scum and given that I think our reactions would be somewhat similar, I think that the fact that I would never say what he said as scum is weak evidence that he also wouldn't? If I told you that, based on my

personal

evaluation of how JJH plays as town and as scum, he is not the kind of person who would employ the strategy that you described as scum, but is the kind of person who would have a high degree of confidence that his towngame shines through when he is town?

The sort of strategy that you're alleging that scum!JJH employed here is one that a certain style of scum player might employ. I do not think that JJH is that style of scum player. Just as I told moon earlier, scum!RC might say something like that, but almost nobody plays scum like RC does, so it doesn't make sense to apply tells based around RC to players who don't play like him. I understand that it might be sort of unsatisfying to just hear me say that "JJH isn't that kind of player", but I genuinely don't know how I could explain that at a lower level. If I could, I would be doing it.

[northsidegal]

you know what, just don't bother responding norwee, i'm done. just forget it.

[northsidegal]

this stump dissonance is legitimately pissing me off atp
I half think one of you bowing out would be beneficial atp because I don't think you to are going to ever actually work together here

i'm thinking about it. you'll know in the morning.

[northsidegal]

this has nothing to do with reads. i hate my reads this game. they're nothing at all worth talking about, defending, or elaborating on. i hate being in this game. signing up for it was a mistake, and now getting out of it would be a disservice to everyone else.

[northsidegal]

go ahead and hammer

[northsidegal]

why wasn't DGB shot? or was DGB shot but protected and nom vigged?

[northsidegal]

???

[northsidegal]

????

[northsidegal]

i'll be curious to see what the story was with the nom kill and today's no-kill

[northsidegal]

What are your reads like, NSG?

fine with titus today

[northsidegal]

could someone please inform me why the current conversation isn't centered solely around who NM targeted and that person being scum

[northsidegal]

oh nevermind

[northsidegal]

The funny part is, both of the confirmed town + Titus should be able to easily identify my town game.

why?

[northsidegal]

In a normal game, a scumteam normally has the option of fakeclaims, but here there is no chance of that. A fakeclaim by mafia results in an immediate elimination

because it's known that town has no additional power past what the stumps provided

, and in fact the stumps can CC so it doesn't even out PRs if they try and there's no chance of winning the resulting 1v1 and no potential "why has the town power lived this long" argument.

this could entirely be my fault, but i was not under this impression, i was under the impression that town would have some roles besides the townstump roles. i don't think that it was made adequately clear that they would be the

only

roles.

anyways, good game, thanks for modding.

[northsidegal]

yeah this setup is ridiculously scumsided

[northsidegal]

if i knew we were giving the only roles i wouldve chosen smethign different, probably loyal neibhborizer