Newbie 2068 | Lofi Beats to Play Mafia To | Game Over

[Val89]

All,

I am so sorry I am so late to the thread - you've all given me so much to think about, so it has taken me a little while to gather my thoughts and process it all.

One advantage of waiting until there has been a bit of back and forth is that one can start to get a sense of how the game is going to go, and start to make some initial reads. Lots to unpack here, so I'll get straight to it.

First!

I don't like this post. Clearly, post 6 is not post 1, and lying to us straight out of the bad is not a good look. In fact, I propose that we should make it a sort of agreement between us that if any of us are caught lying - about anything - we should give strong consideration to eliminating said person as a result. In addition, the whole post - the content, the tone, the context in which it was posted just gives me a general sense of unease. It was a gut read initially, but I think it's clear I was considering

MiniMegabyte

as at least a slight leanscum here already. Hence far, I have to say the rest of the players are null reads, which considering how advanced the game state is we can start to stop chucking random votes around, this took me a surprise - I was about to say we have some very good mafia players here, but then it occurred to me that if you were truly that skilled you would have convinced me to give you at least a slight townread by now.

(inserts shaking hands emoji here)

Ahh, and here is it; the smoking gun that grants some confidence to that earlier gut read. I am aware of the existence of confirmation bias, so I have gone through all the contributions

MiniMegabyte

has made very carefully several times to try and guard against that, but no -

MiniMegabyte

is a strong scum read at this point. Let me explain.

MiniMegabyte

is clearly trying to insinuate that she has no personal knowledge of

VFP

, particularly as this comes of the back of

VFPs

explicit (and as it turned out - also false) statement that they don't know

anyone

in the game. Also of interest is the actual emoji chosen here - a handshake. Between two persons. To the exclusion of the rest of the group. See where I am going with this? She also specifically and pointedly says "Nice to meet

ya

!" instead of "nice to meet

you

". We all know English is one of those languages where 'you' can refer to a singular or an individual. Using it here would be natural, avoid the wavy red line most modern day browsers would assign to the word, and give her the benefit of the ambiguity if anyone paying attention catches it. Instead, we get the informal 'ya', standing in contrast to 'y'all', which to me is a further indication the introduction is addressed specifically to

VFP

and she wants us to know it.

The question now becomes why? In my view, the only explanation that makes any sort of sense is she wants us to think, even if only subconsciously, that this over the top, public performance is the first time these two have ever came in to contact, and they most definitely have

NOT

already said hi to each other in the scum thread. No sir, definitely not! Nothing to see here folks! Shake my hand and smile!

You might think that this makes

VFP

her scum partner then, and the game is solved. Putting aside my feelings towards how I would feel if my first ever game of Mafia was solved and ended on the first IRL day, I don't actually think this is the case. I think

MiniMegabyte

knew that someone might pick up on the vibes between the two here and our first thought would be that they are scum partners. But equally, perhaps that what they just want us to think? I wish there was some term to describe this, but I've checked the wiki inside out and can't find one, so I have invented one, both to refer to this situation and the approach I think we should take to try and come to some sort of conclusion as to how to deal with it. I call it Written Information Follows Overt Meta (WIFOM) - in other words, when what you see written down is in line with what would be expected from your experience you should assume that it is true. No sane scum player wants to associate themselves so strongly with their scum partner so obviously and early, so when we see it happening, we should assume that ISN'T what is happening, that makes no sense. Thus, this is all a big play, and we can actually rule out

VFP

as the other scum. As an aside, feel free to use that acronym in your future posts, but do try to remember who invented it and give credit every now and again.

There is the open question as to why

VFP

also lied about their association with other players, but I am going to assume for the moment that was a legitimate mistake - I know what I said about eliminating proven liars, but I don't think they would be so fast to walk it back. In contrast, I think

MiniMegabyte

fully expected that "First!" lie to slip under the radar.

So;

VFP

townread,

MiniMegabyte

scumread,b]

everyone else

[/b]null. I think it's pretty clear given that set of reads where my vote should go. I'm going to put my vote where it obviously belongs, and strongly feel that we should make them the elimination for the day. Obviously there is quite a bit of time left before deadline, and I would like to see some more discussion, but I will put my vote on them and see what happens with the rest of the votes. Being the first, I won't be able to hammer, but I want to make it clear that I would be prepared to hammer, and it will take a lot now to convince me to switch my vote.

With all that said: VOTE: T3

[Val89]

In post 13, Cook wrote:
CRASH

....

flailing scum

You know,

Cook

was the other person you call 'flailing scum' not more than one page ago. Do we collectively think scum would pay so little attention to the game they would forget who they were calling scum from one page to the next? I'm not so sure myself. Slight towncred for this. On the other hand, calling 3 people scum and not putting your vote on any of them seems scummy, so I guess it's still a nullread over all.

It will, however, be interesting to hear

alstroemeria

inject some thoughts on the implied case you make against them in this post, though - don't think I didn't see it. If you feel that way, you should come straight out and say it, in my opinion.

[Val89]

JamesTheNames' page 2 prediction. It's T3 and Val89.

Coming out strong, I see. Care to explain, or are you just going to throw it out there and hope somebody else does the work for you?

In any case, as you can see, I am a fan of getting right to the heart of it, and your page 2 solve is just sort of thing I like to see; so I make a public commitment right now - pinky swear, no takebacks. if you are right, I'll send you the hat pictured in my avatar. While I don't own the exact one pictured, I do own that exact style and colour. I'll even sign the lining, if you want!

[Val89]

Not to be that person but I don't think that's allowed particularly.

If that is in response to my offer, I read the rules the mod posted in the first few posts and couldn't find anything that appeared germane, but I am prepared to take your word for it. If I have done something not allowed particularly, I apologise. Rescinded.

Also talking about a page 2 solve like that huh, that is one way to class your post right? I can't quite say hypocrisy is a scum tell buuuuuut. Rvs is rvs.

I should clarify, "your page 2 solve is just sort of thing I like to see" was a serious statement. I like the fact you came out with a solve straight off the bat - and I was attempting to encourage more of it. Asking if you cared to explain was an attempt to elicit further information -

"Yea so. What in the world."

would imply you had some sort of strong reaction one way or another and I am unclear if this is an example of 'people will usually vote for non-serious reasons' as per the Key Concepts, or if you had something serious you took issue with.

I'm not seeing any sort of hypocrisy at all. Perhaps you could elaborate?

[Val89]

i don't know if you were serious at all

No, I wasn't.

and realized it was just a BS post to make it seem long, with no content providing and voting someone other than your scumread xD

Absolutely correct. It was a straight-forward RVS vote dressed up in the style of a serious wall post. You correctly identify the most obvious punchline there, but I dropped a few other things that should have made it clear it was entirely non-serious. I don't really claim to have invented the acronym 'WIFOM', to take another example. Of course, if it transpires that

MiniMegaByte

is scum, I reserve the right to imply I was in fact being serious and I knew from day one.

My post #27 was equally non-serious. Technically, reading you as null was serious, but the reasons equally BS. The clue there was the fact the that you HAD put your vote on one of the 3 - and Cook, MiniMegaByte and me are definitely 3, by the way - with the kicker being the reference to

alstroemeria

, whom was yet to be mentioned. I read you as null because I was reading everyone as null. There is nothing upto #27 I consider indicative either way.

Who would've thought that at the beginning of the game people joke around

Indeed.

you can see how it's bad and you should admit that.

To be clear - I do nothing of the sort.

[Val89]

Perhaps you could elaborate?

I'm still happy with my vote.

Should I take that as no?

I am aware OMGUS is a thing, and I am trying to guard against it, but I am starting to get vibes I don't like here.

[Val89]

Why're you so desperate to leave the RVS stage? We haven't even had all players post yet.

My reason for dressing up an RVS vote in the amount of verbiage I did was to make sure there was at least something substantial to discuss. I thought between that, and "hi im new; hah your name suks vote: random" the former would at least give us all something to bite at from page 2, maybe draw out something to work with. I believe it has. As soon as it has, the RVS stage is done, right? We have something serious to discuss.

Secondly, hypocrisy. You made a claim or a suggestion about the scum team, the serious-ness of it is irrelevant. I did the same. Thus 36 I find hypocritical.

You said the same in #38, and I addressed it in #42. I'm not following. I made a claim or suggestion about the scum team. So did you. I said I like that approach, and would like to encourage more of it. You somehow thought that stance was hypocritical. Perhaps I am misunderstand the meaning of the word, but hypocritical to me is engaging in behaviour you criticize others for.

I'll give you benefit of the doubt, I personally think

"as you can see, I am a fan of getting right to the heart of it, and your page 2 solve is just sort of thing I like to see"

is pretty clear I wasn't leveling any sort of criticism and instead praising it, but I'll assume you took something in my tone as somehow sarcastic and I was in fact trying to direct some sort of veiled shade towards you.

I should clarify, "your page 2 solve is just sort of thing I like to see" was a serious statement. I like the fact you came out with a solve straight off the bat - and I was attempting to encourage more of it.

I can't, however, think for the life of me why you would read that and STILL believe I am somehow being disingenuous. In fact, only one scenario makes sense - you are scum, and so hypersensitive to any sort of shade whatsoever that you read it where it isn't there - and in fact, continue to do so when pointed out explicitly that it isn't.

I think anyone reading my ISO can see I've taken a consistent approach here. I make a rando solve, you make one, I say 'good on you, lets have more of that, and maybe have some more discussion about it'. I'm failing to see the hypocrisy.

But in any case, lets compare and contrast your approach here with Town!James in the only completed game I have to look at, namely #2064. For context, you replaced into the game into a slot D1, and having read the thread you quickly postedthis list of reads, with justification for each.

Some of the stuff said here is very interesting -

my personal opinion is post length isn't indicative but can be a nod in a direction with enough context.

I happen to agree. I'll let others read how you opened your town game and compare it to this one, and see if that's context enough for them. It is for me.

he may not enjoy walls, but a "why" wouldn't hurt to have. Meh.

Explains himself, nice

Please post more

It appears he is actually bothered by certain people's post quality and relavance, annoyance at lack of content being created, I'm not very experienced but this just feels towny to me

I mean, its pretty clear that Town!James thinks that talking openly and honestly about your reads and votes, early and often, is pro-town behaviour and based almost all of his initial reads off some variation of that exact justification. You go ahead and, as town, make sure you include your own justification without prompting, from the open.

And then this game, we get this:

Oh well. I am satisfied with my vote.

I'm still happy with my vote.

Yeah, I've seen enough now to convince myself I'm not falling in to OMGUS trap.

VOTE: JamesTheNames

[Val89]

val posts infrequently and walls. noted.

Do you have any comments on the actual content of said wall? I think that might be useful to us all here.

[Val89]

"and your page 2 solve is just sort of thing I like to see" in post 36.
Considering town should be scum hunting, this clearly means you find something scummy about what I did

I'm sorry. Are we speaking the same language? A plain reading of "Just the sort of thing I like to see" in no way implies I find anything scummy about said thing. As I said earlier, if there was anything about my tone that made you think I might have been attempting to be sarcastic or cloy about it, I cleared that up in #42.

You later said post 30 and 27 weren't serious. Does that mean other things may also not be serious? That's rhetorical.

It may well be rhetorical, but I'll answer it. Yes, #27 and #30 were my "RVS" stage posts. VFP and MultiMegabyte were null reads at that point, as were you. Everything else since then is deadly serious - I realised that your response in hero solving me + T3 was also likely non-serious; but your reaction to me asking you to flesh it out puts me firmly out of RVS and into serious scumhunt mode.

I'm not moving my vote.

I should seriously hope you don't. I'm counting on your vote being on me, having now established it is a serious vote, will serve to bring attention to our interactions here, and with it the scrutiny of the other players on the content of my actual argument in #72. I note others have obviously read it, but have yet to engage with it. I can only assume it is because they are waiting to see how it plays out before chiming in, but I don't want this forgotten - I want as much attention as possible on it - because I scumread you HARD right now, and you've only made yourself scummier to me with every post.

[Val89]

You're just flaking.

I'm sorry. You will have to explain that one. I looked it up on the wiki and it appears to you think I am planning on dropping out of the game?

I can assure you, I have no such intention, particularly when it's going so well.

[Val89]

Another wall incoming. Sorry not sorry.

I'm ready to give my initial reads on the rest of the game.

Spoiler: alstroemerial:

Town. My initial and overall reaction to seeing their contributions to the game overnight was 'finally!'. I know it could be fairly easy to rock up fashionably late, post a list of reads now you have something juicy to analyse and soak up the towncred, but it feels genuine; it mirrors the approach taken by Town!James in 2064, so I know there is precedent for newbtown to act that way, and I generally agree with the reads given, as you will see.

There is only one thing that pings me:

Does your scum-lean on Grandpa make you think Val is more likely to be town, given all of the back and forth that they had?

As you will see in my Gandpa read, I'm not really convinced the "back-and-forth" actually turns out in the end to be anything of substance. I think it's very clear my focus up to the point of Zyla's reads has been James, and Zyla has James as a Townlean. I feel if the positions were switched, I would be thinking what the

James

flip would mean for my alignment, and how to tie Zyla into that scenario more than I would Grandpa. Alstroemerial has me and Grandpa as both TRs at present, so the later assertion they think we are flipped (I think that means of opposite alignments?) adds an interesting dimension.

Spoiler: GrandpaMo:

So, continuing with Grandpa; I'll be honest, I am struggling this one. There is a lot of content to digest, which I much prefer over the 'active lurking' I would characterise some of the other play as, but it comes across, as they admit themselves, as confused - it may well not be deliberate, but it certainly isn't helping town.

Look at the full context please. Smh. The answer you are looking for should be within the conversation. I will give you a hint; the reason relates to a misunderstanding we BOTH had. (I am assuming)

Context for the quote: Grandpa is addressing James, who had taken issue with Grandpa giving me towncred for my #63

I feel like I should be able to understand what Grandpa is refering to here, but I don't. I thought it was clear and obvious my #25 and #27 were non-serious RVS stage posts, in eactly the same way T3's #34 was, but since at least 2 players replied as if it was serious, and a third has hinted they took it that way, I have to admit that perhaps that assumption was wrong. In retrospect, I may modify my approach in future but I still stand by the fact I think we got more out of it than "hello i'm val, lets have fun vote: T3" would have.

Grandpa says in 49 that they are unsure if I am serious, but then assumed I was and proceeded to give an analysis as if I were. I clarified I wasn't being serious, and Grandpa rows it back, saying we were obviously BOTH labouring under a misunderstanding, but as far as I see - only Grandpa misunderstood my intent. It then gets waved around as if James is missing something obvious for not seeing what we both missed. I'm actually inclined to agree with James here, despite my read on them, in that I don't think my response warranted a townread in isolation. Grandpa read me as scummy based on #27, and my explanation might have placated them enough to discard that, but that should have put me back at null, right? Making two RVS posts should have been NAI at that point.

Then there is a VFP townread, which Grandpa confirms is serious in the first line of #49. The last post that VFP makes up to getting that townread is #33, and I see nothing to justify such a read that early. I agree, taking everything else since then that VFP does read town, but I don't see how Grandpa reaches that conclusion as fast as he does.

wait i think alstro is scum lol

This is another read I have no idea where it comes from. I'm trying to get into Grandpas head, assuming he is town, then assuming he is scum, and reading what alstroemerial had contributed until then, and I don't see it at all. I think Grandpa is going to have to chime in with some more here.

I am aware that, so far that I have done nothing but point out inconsistencies, so the overall read I am about to give - a townlean - might seem at odds with that, but my gut says overall the approach and town feels towny. I think some of my misgivings come from the confused presentation rather than content, but there are some actual issues I have there - If it a further misunderstanding-type situation, Grandpa might clear some of this up with a followup, and I expect them do so.

Spoiler: VFP

It's all rather vague, and I think we ought to start seeing some more justification for what is being spit out, but I agree what we do have from them looks, taken together, more like a slightly-too passive town game than it does scum. The interactions between Grandpa and VFP are interesting too, and I think VFP was a bit too quick to read Grandpa as town too, even if we eventually come to the same conclusions, so that is on my radar. I disagree with the read on Zyla, but there is some justification I can find somewhat reasonable.

I don't read anything into the no lim vote - it's seems basically the same as a vote on a random person, provided that, like that random vote, its going to be quickly moved on to an actual scum read. I do expect that vote to go somewhere constructive soon, at which point, it's had the exact same effect as any other temporary RVS vote, and I'll treat it the same way. I don't give Zyla scum points for pushing it, because it does seem unexpected, but I'm not giving her town points for dropping it in the same VFP has, either.

I have something else too, but ongoing games. Townlean.

Spoiler: T3

Scumlean. Reading the ISO, he might as well not be in the game, in my opinion. I don't see anything of substance apart from this:

I don't post anything over 5 lines unless I'm scum.

Anyone else read this as "I'm getting in my excuse early as to why I can't flesh out my arguments, so don't bother asking me for too much details". Seems like a way to play rather anti-town, while having it passed off as just being 'meta'. I don't buy that argument at all, and its enough to scumlean rather than null this one. It also makes me wonder what those who have townlean'd T3 see that I don't, because if it wasn't for that, this one would be a null for me.

Spoiler: Cook

Scumlean. This one seems like even less substance than T3, in honestly, and as alstroemerial points out; It's obvious they are engaging with the game on some level, but giving us nothing until #123, when we get:

TR VFP
SL James
SR GrandpaMo, Val89, MiniMegabyte

WTH? How in everything that is holy does MiniMegabyte warrant an inclusion on that list over Zyla, alstroemerial and T3, and a strong read at that?

Spoiler: MiniMegabyte

I say this, because she is CLEARY a null read at this point. I place no importance on her reaction to my post, because while I think it was obvious I was joking, I can understand why, if you are new to the game and you see the first substantial post of the game on it's surface shading you, you might respond instinctively, but the posts that are there basically summed up "Hi!" and "Vals post about me is fucking ridiculous", which of course it is, and so there is nothing here to work with, at all. I can't make anything other than a null read, and I fail to see how anyone else can do anything different.

Spoiler: Zyla

Scumread. After Cook, we have another player posting a read list with little justification, which on examination, I can't get my head around in the slightest. I agree on MiniMegabyte being null. For me alstroemerial is any easy townlean read at this stage for both town and scum, but the rest of it, we are basically diametrically opposed.

Let's start with T3. She reads him as notscum based on meta based on two posts, which is basically a obviously non-serious fake claim in response to my equally non-serious RVS vote. How is that alignment indicative in the slightest, even if you have a huge sample of T3s games to work with? T3 himself points this out, and Zyla rows back on it, and agrees its rubbish. Nothing else passes between them, and T3 continues to make non-posts, but he still ends up making the list as a Townlean? Not following, sorry.

Then there is the James thing. I don't think anyone is going to be the slightest bit surprised when I give my read of James as scum, and even though his vote has moved at the time I am writing this, I think we are all expecting to see my name in red when James posts his list, if he gets around to it. This can't have escaped Zyla's attention. I'm reading James as scum, and I've said explicitly that's a pretty hard read, and Zyla reads him as townlean, no explanation given - but choses not to pipe up and explain why?

And then I am null (or rather @Not enough info'). They must have taken a position on the Me V James push here - they say that read James town, so Zyla either thinks it's TvT, and I'm scooting off in the wrong direction hard, or I am scum pushing someone she thinks is town. In either case, I can't see how you hold me as 'not enough info' in the same vein as MiniMegabyte. Town!Zyla seeing either another town player pushing on someone they thing is town, or seeing someone they think is scum pushing on a town read surely says SOMETHING about that by now, and the fact it is being left as the giant elephant in the room and glossed over reads to me as newscum scared to either get too closely associated with her partner, or get accused of a chainsaw defense if the come after me, notwithstanding that coming after me is something I would expect town!Zyla to do if she reads it as SvT, or at least think about telling me to knock it off if she gets TvT vibes.

I'm hoping someone can explain the difference between a "null" read and "not enough info", because to me, they are the same thing.

Spoiler: James

And so to my strongest Scumread. I'm sticking with it. I'm trying to read everything he has posted since with a good dose of benefit of the doubt. I'm going searching for reasons to believe this is a Town v Town situation, and I'm not seeing it. I'm only getting further entranced in my read every post. Everything I said in #72 still applies, and I haven't been satisfied by any of the explanation that has been provided. Since then, there is more:

First of all townreading someone who didn't vote anybody and rather wants to No-Elim.

Clearly, he means VFP here. Can someone point out where, up to now, I've given a read on VFP? The only place I've mentioned VFP at all until now was my very first post, which EVEN IF, and its a big IF, James took that I was being dead serious reading MiniMegaByte as Scum, VFP as town, and then voting for T3; I have already clarified, twice by that point, that is it wasn't.

I personally don't think meta is a genuine reason to vote somebody ever

Meta isn't a valid reason to read anybody any direction.

You know, it's funny. Game #2064 had several reads formed on meta, and yet Town!James doesn't make that argument there. You say that you don't like judging people on self-given meta, like T3 delivered in this game, but you certainly seem prepared to listen to meta reads of more experienced players in that game, without comment that you don't think that's a valid way to form reads - unless (like in this game) there is one directed towards you.

I intend to go digging a little further into that game here, because I think this may well end up being pretty damning, but in any case, my read against you in no longer "meta", is the sense that it is based off another previous game, because you say what I was building my case off explicitly here.

What makes you think witholding a read you have or an idea is town sided?

Exactly. This is precisely what I was trying to put across in my quotes from your previous games. James the player KNOWs that withholding a read or idea is anti-town.

Oh well. I am satisfied with my vote.

I'm still happy with my vote.

Why're you so desperate to leave the RVS stage?

I'm getting the distinct "I'm going to imply I have something about Val, but I'm not sharing" vibes here, along with the "I'm happy to keep the game in this low information RVS stage for as long as a I can, even though we have something real to discuss". Thinking about it, that doesn't tally with your (apparently) taking my reads in #27 seriously either. We know you believe that to be anti-town behavior because you told us so, when you started pushing on GrandPa for it, so why would a theoretical Town!James engage in it this game? Ocams Razor: It's because you rolled scum.

multiple holes = people

In other news, this made my chuckle far more than it ought. I realise I am still such a child.

Conclusion:

alstroemerial

,

VFP

,

GrandpaMo

,

MiniMegabyte

,

T3

,

Cook

,

Zyla

,

JamesTheNames

.

By the way, if you really are colourblind James, and that wasn't a clumsy attempt at a fake breadcrumb, let me know which colour is easier to differentiate over green for my town leans.

[Val89]

Hold up. Wait a minute. You're giving me scum points, For Sleeping? How desperate are you?

Yeah, I don't think we need to go reading in to James activity patterns to find scumtells here, there is enough without that. As long as it gets dealt with now, I don't think the way GrandPa V James was left is AI in any way in either direction.

[Val89]

Anyone else read this as "I'm getting in my excuse early as to why I can't flesh out my arguments, so don't bother asking me for too much details". Seems like a way to play rather anti-town, while having it passed off as just being 'meta'

It was kind of a joke-y obvservation about my meta.

Yes, I am aware that how the surface reading was supposed to be taken, and if that's all true, it just means it's another one of those non-posts that serve only to make it look like you are saying SOMETHING whilst actually not.

But, what does it mean for the game? If you do end up posting more than 5 lines this game, what do you expect us to read from it? Or are you making a commitment now that you never will, and so it's a non-issue? If that's the case, how will you deal with the situation where actually you do have a fair bit to say, without breaking your self-imposed meta?

It pings me as scummy for the reason I quote, if it's just left as is. If its not scummy, lets publicly deal with the ramifications of that statement now so I can write it off and move on.

[Val89]

? Nono, I'm saying that it is a joke, and that Val's questioning about it can go nowhere because of that

Hard disagree. T3 can't very well say "no, I am serious, and I intend to continue with it", the "it's a joke part" is given and already stated.

Its a trust tell if its something that applies

across

games. T3 can, and should, tell us now if he intends to rely on it

this game

, and if so, how far he acknowledges that will affect gameplay.

[Val89]

James. I will like to lay back off you for now since I have successfully answered everything you may have + giving more insight into your reasonings, and debunking some of your flaws / possible manipulation.

(...snip...)

This usually happens in a newbie game where a TvT occurs and it becomes aggressive -- but once you lay off, you get to see more interactions happening.

Disagree. If I read what you are trying to say correctly, if you get the impression James is throwing shade at you, the fact "have successfully answered everything [James] may have" is irrelevant. If you have cause to believe James is scum, and alluding to 'possible manipulation' certainly seems that way; then it would seem to me the play is to keep that pleasure up until

James

has answered everything from

you

to your satisfaction. We have possible scum in our sights. I am aware there is a scum partner out there, but in my opinion the continued pressure on one of the scum partners is more likely to draw the other other than pivot elsewhere, risk landing on a townie and completely releasing the pleasure from both scum partners inadvertently.

I think cook is the only one that should be reasonably scumreading me as possible town.

This is because cook was the only one to garner a read thru prior context of my info etc while both Zyla + James, got it from pivot changes?

I am having difficulty parsing this comment. Are you saying only

Cook

has good reason read a Town!Grandpa, and everyone else should be reading you as null or scum at this point, or that you can understand why a Town!Cook might read you as scum, but can't understand why anyone else would?

[Val89]

A) That's fine, we're different players, we look for different things, the important thing isn't that we read people the same, but that we work together

I'm not expecting for our reads to match, and I don't scum read anyone purely for having different reads. I read VFP as leantown, and VFP reads you town, for example. I see VFPs explanation for it - that he considers a scum!Zyla would continue to prosecute the "no-lim" vote further than you did - and while I disagree with it, it seems a reasonable case for Town!VFP to make.

On the other had, we have the exact opposite read on {T3, James, VFP and Grandpa}, and a different read on Cook, too - over fully half the field, and the essential difference is I can't game out the justifications you might have because you haven't shared them. I am aware the same applies to some of the other players also, and that's on my radar also.

I had a gut feeling that he was town based on what I've seen of him before, in a game that we played and meta I read for that game (as that's what got him), it wasn't much to go off of, but I was curious to how he'd respond if I acted like it was clear cut evidence. I liked his response, which is where the actual town-lean comes from

I'm reading your ISOs side by side, and I don't see it. Which post of his gave that feeling; which post of yours is the one where you act like its clear cut evidence, and which post does he give the response you like?
This seems, on the surface, to be a reasonable explanation, so if you gave give me those links, I may well find some measure of ease there.

"Null" means "I see equal ways to read this person as town that I do to read them as scum", whereas "Not enough info" means "I don't have enough info to declare a read yet"

Fair enough. I can see that. What are your reasons for reading scum!Cook, and what are those for town!Cook?

[Val89]

@Alstromerial https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Trust_Tell

[Val89]

Not to mention there are different reasons for me and Zyla scumreading you.

Can someone just take a moment to look at the combined ISO for James and Zyla and identify where Zyla gives her reasons for voting Grandpa prior to James' #145?

I can't find it, and it's worrying me.

[Val89]

I'm having trouble reconciling the fact that you're saying you wouldn't scum read for differing reads with the fact that that seems to be what your original post was saying in that section

That'll be because you quoted the first part of my response, and not the follow up where I addresed that already.

On the other had, we have the exact opposite read on {T3, James, VFP and Grandpa}, and a different read on Cook, too - over fully half the field, and the essential difference is I can't game out the justifications you might have because you haven't shared them. I am aware the same applies to some of the other players also, and that's on my radar also.

There's a slight difference between "we don't have the same reads" and "everyone you think is town is actually scum, and everyone you think is scum I think is town".

Hm. I hadn't noticed that yet, I'm still leaning town on James, but I'll be watching for sure

Hm indeed. It might have escaped your attention, but now you see James heavily implying you are communicating outside of thread, either a straight up scum slip, or else a scummy attempt to put words in your mouth and link you together, and your response is "still town though"?

I'm sorry, but if all I had was a 'gut read'; then even if you thought my argument around him being evasive in the James v Val interactions when he has demonstrated that he thinks that is anti-town were total BS, even if you think there is some town explaination for the "I don't like using meta in this game when it looks bad for me, but I thought was fine in my last town game when it helped find scum" line he is trying to slip past us, even if you couldn't follow Grandpa's arguments against James and wrote those off, and even if you buy James response to alstromerial's additional reason re: the tunneling comment, then I would have thought James trying to link you in such a manner would be reason enough alone to override a pure 'gut read'.

To your credit, however, I am satisfied with your response with regards to T3.

[Val89]

lol ok i guess i have to explain why i thought alstro was scum so randomly lmfao

i thought it was obvious. i dont really scumread them, they will probably be in my townreads just because i cant read 3 ppl and the 2 ppl are acting scummy.

To be fair, that doesn't really count as an explanation.

"I have to explain why I thought alstro was scum, actually I don't, here is reasons for a town read"

Fine, as you know, I townread them myself, and you can always change your mind if later events warrant it, but let's hear what crossed your mind when said you thought they were scum, even if it was only for a few minutes. It was long enough for you to post a read to that effect before it was recinded.

[Val89]

You have to dig for treasure, you have a shovel and it could only dig so much, what happens if you split the shovel between multiple holes, maybe you didn't dig deep enough to get the treasure, whereas if you dug as deep as you could on one hole, you'd know if the treasure was there or not. In this analogy shovel = time, treasure = solid read, multiple holes = people.

One hour later:

I'm not stubborn enough.

UNVOTE: Val89
VOTE: GrandpaMo

I can only assume James decided if would be better if we didn't get that treasure after all.

Where does your "solid read" on me sit now, James?

[Val89]

In this analogy shovel = time

Different shovel.

You know, when you are trying act aloof and uncaring, at least try and be the tiniest bit internally consistent, yeah?

I never voted anyone according to meta. At the end of day 3 I was still voting Super over unwnd because they were scummier, everyone else was voting unwnd because of meta

I think that's a cop out, but I'm not accusing you of voting according to meta yourself. The point was everyone else was voting due to meta, in an important phase of the game, and not once did Town!James say "Hang on folks, I don't think meta is a ever valid reason to vote someone". This game, you've said it twice, directed at two different people, right out of the bat.

Just so other people don't need to go digging if they don't fancy it; that game was 2 votes for 2 against the two players mentioned -

Super

and

unwnd

- with 3 needed to lim. Super herself eventually drops the hammer on unwnd, who flips red, for a town win. Town!James, in his very first game on the site, sees his faction win a game due to a meta push, and comes to the conclusion that "meta isn't ever valid"? This game, James

thinks

he is about to come under a meta push, and suddenly, he

really

doesn't like meta reads. Strange that, eh?

In any case my initial case against you isn't exactly "meta", in that it revolved around you demonstrating behavior that you have shown you know is anti-town. I used your behavior in a previous game to demonstrate that

you know that

, but frankly, I think it's widely established that it's anti-town, and in any case, later on, you explicitly said the same thing in this game.

What makes you think witholding a read you have or an idea is town sided?

Where does your "solid read" on me sit now, James?

Your continued dodging of the question, in spite of your #153, is noted.

[Val89]

I haven't insulted or directly said anything that was mean? I was talking about the game. Look James comes back I am assuming and says they went to sleep, that is understandable. But once they come back; including right now! and the previous night, they still have yet to respond to anything I have said.

I also noted James' #162 was essentially "I was asleep, the fact I haven't fully addressed your point yet is NAI, stop trying to make a case out of nothing", but the implied part is of course "Now that I am awake, and engaging with the game, I will address it".

The point that was left unaddressed was James' sudden jump onto the GrandpaMo wagon. I gave a clear 24 hours for James to come back to it, in case he was putting something together and we would see a response. In the meantime, Grandpa has already repromoted, in a somewhat aggressive manner that Alstroemerial has pointed out they find a little on the harsh side, without response.

When I come back to the same thing in #196 James does have an answer, although I have already pointed out I find it entirely unsatisfying.

I'm not stubborn enough.
As in I'm not stubborn enough to vote Val89 when GrandpaMo is giving me much scummier vibes.

It does appear to me if that was all we were going to get, we could have had it well before now, especially since James has been posting in the time since his #162.

So, in conclusion, whilst I agreed with Alstroemerial (and James himself) that all this was initially NAI, at this point it does seem to be a pattern emerging which I do think adds to the very strong scum case against James.

[Val89]

They're showing us up, T3.

Hello!

Do you have any actual insight for us, or are you content for the newbies to continue to all the heavy lifting?

[Val89]

Now hold on here. I quoted every part of your post and responded to it. It's not fair to imply that I didn't address the follow up when that was just the next paragraph.

Yeah, on reflection, I think I was being a bit too clever for my own good here. My intention was to do the same here as you did when you said you had already countered the point I made in #161 about it difficult to game out the reason why a Town!Zyla comes to the opposite conclusion on T3 because I don't have your justification for that read; by then giving that justification in your #167(B) post, which of course was posted afterwards. I wanted to see if you would call it scummy and then use it to 'gotcha!'; but thinking about it, it's not quite the same scenario. I'll disregard this entirely.

You missed the option that I was thinking made the most sense, but I'll let James answer to see if I'm correct.

James: what made you say that our reads were for different reasons?

I'll take your word for it there is another option. I await James' reply eagerly.

Gut reads can be strong sometimes, he seems to be posting in the same way as our last game together, which to me is good, even if not conclusive. I will update my read as the game goes on, but for now, he is still leaning town

In actual fact, I read game #2064 (and a couple of others) before this game started, whilst waiting for the queue to fire. I've never played forum mafia before, and I wanted to get a handle on the flow, the lingo, and try and solve the games myself purely as an observer, just to see if I was any good at it.
It might come as a surprise, but I was happy to see JamesTheNames' name [pun not-intended] on the list, because I liked their posts in that game and the approach mirrored how I thought I ought to play mafia (at least as town). I don't suppose it matters, but yours was another name I had the same feelings about.

So, I have to say, but I am sorry that I

really don't agree

that he seems to be posting in the same way as he did #2064 (I am assuming that's the game you are referring to, please correct me if I am wrong). He's a likeable fellow, for sure, and I do worry that if we aren't just dealing with a {James, Zyla} scumteam in this game, that you are allowing your interactions in that past game to bleed over into this one, when it isn't warranted. I understand you actually played that game, and I started reading along with it as it was coming to a conclusion, and therefore you should have the better feel for it, but I think the differences are obvious enough (and I've already pointed out specific examples elsewhere) to wonder why you are so desperate to justify a gut TR for him to yourself.

With respect to GrandpaMo; my read remains a town lean, and I am slightly more convinced they are town then I was when I first delivered that read. The posts are somewhat confusing, the logic often doesn't flow quite right, and he flits about making reads and posts (like the abrupt scum read on Alstromerial) I just don't get, even when he attempts to explain, but what I

do

get is a sense that Grandpa is trying as hard as he can to advance the game, and is getting as frustrated at not being able to put what he wants to put across effectively as I sometimes get frustrated trying to decode it. It seems far too...I guess genuine, to be scum deliberately trying to derail and distract, but the inconsistences and the effect it's having on town makes Grandpa the clear and easy target for a a mislim; and smart scum have probably tuned into that already. I don't think its a coincidence, for example, that both my scumreads are on that wagon.

[Val89]

Ok, you get one chance to convince me.

Why is James scum?

Is this specifically directed to Grandpa, or would it help if I summarised the case for Scum!James as I see it?

[Val89]

I don't read wallposts.

Ahh. That'll explain why you don't already know the case against James then.

[Val89]

He thinks being at the forefront is most fun; and that town should pick out someone they think are acting scum and tunnel on to them, keep the pressure up and find the cracks; whilst he implores people to explain and not to hide what they are thinking.

He just doesn't think that hard enough to actually do that this game.

Oh, and apparently he can read Zyla's mind.

[Val89]

I am afraid he doesn't read walls, Grandpa; but he can apparently decide if they are entertaining or not without having read them.

That's some top tier deductive skills, and I'm waiting with baited breath to see it in action during the game.

[Val89]

So he says town should tunnel a scummy slot but because he doesn’t keep tunneling slots, that makes him scum?
Is that your case?

That's the first half of it in 20 words or less, yes.

You've established you are a fan of conciseness, and James don't post all that much, but what he does post is consistently inconsistent with his own stated position of how town should/do act.

Am I wrong?

[Val89]

In the vein of paraphrasing the case in as little words as possible:

"He's town because he gives no shits about doing this things he says town should do, I'm an SE slot you newb so trust me." I ain't buying that.

You buy his read on Grandpa as genuine? Zyla is the other one driving that wagon, and I agree she's likely flipping red here too.

[Val89]

You should vote Zyla.

There are slots MIA currently, and it's starting to worry me. Is Cook even playing right now?

If those slots ever do decide to stop coasting, and it does come down to either Grandpa or Zyla, then obviously my vote is going straight over; but right now James is the slot I'm most confident is scummy, and that's where my vote is staying.

I find the "trust me newb, he's town cos I ain't a newb and I know it" about as convincing as the "trust me, he's town cos I played a game with him before" argument we get from Zyla.

[Val89]

my experience that town sometimes change their reads drastically without sharing the exact thought process.

I see a world where a town player change their reads without sharing the thought process as a matter of playstyle. I see a world were a newb town player sees that town player and incorrectly reads that as scummy. I see a world where a newbscum player is careful not to forget to share their progression for fear of being read as scum.

I just don't see a world where a town player changes reads without sharing the process whilst saying that's a scummy thing to do and pushing others for it. You are either a "cards-to-chest" town, in which case you don't criticise others for playing the same way; or you are "here what I think" town.

[Val89]

On the subject of the Grandpa/James wagons, I think Grandpa should give serious consideration to moving his vote to James. I get the impression the vote on Cook was done to try draw a reaction from them, and it hasn't had that effect, and I doubt anyone else is going Cook right now.

Me, Grandpa and Alstroemerial have all read James as scum. Alstro has also expressed disquiet at the fact some slots are coasting, and I agree. James isn't going into hammer range without a vote from one of the 'passive' slots, that, being an E-1 vote, would presumably induce some sort of explanation. It's unlikely further votes on James will come from NorwegianboyEE nor Zyla, so it means some of the inactive slots will have to come to table.

If we are wrong about James being scum, and those other slots agree with NorwegianboyEE that James is Town, and we are all silly newbies voting a townie, then perhaps one of them might have something more convincing than NorwegianboyEE's had for us so far, and the game moves on that way.

[Val89]

I don't fully scumread you but you are like the only one who I see that could be possible scum.

If Grandpa doesn't scumread someone, how are they possible scum? That just doesn't make sense, could be just bad logic though.

FWIW, I read that as "I don't assign you a full

scrumread

, just a

scumlean

, but you are the only scumlean I have so far".

[Val89]

That last post would read exactly the same if it just said "Fair enough".

Everything after the 'but' smells like "I better add some verbiage that looks good, but says nothing".

It's almost as if you tried to hang a case on someone who is expressing themselves clumsily, and when point out what the clumsy construction probably means, you have a "shit, of course" moment, but can't bring yourself just to say that. +10 scum points.

[Val89]

My point exactly, Zyla.

You may well feel like you can't leave it as two words which amount to "my point was shit" if you are scum, and your point was against someone you need to push as scum. Like, if anything in my case against you or James is just straight up crap based on a simple misunderstanding and another player comes along and points it out, I don't see an issue just saying "yeah, you are right, that's crap".

What's the reason you still don't like someone saying you are a scumlean, and the only scumlean they have so far? That it was Day 1? That they could change their mind later?

Incidentally, we have been interacting a fair bit of late. Have you enough information to make a read on me now?

[Val89]

I remember I sred grandpa in another game as town for exactly this.

What's this?

[Val89]

what do u think about like the wall post that zyla posted of where i was saying i was an easy vote like look at post 299, last quote message

they only pointed out me and not james

Don't see anything wrong with that - it seems like a stretch to point to you talking about Norwee not jumping on either wagon and suggest that is scummy; but it seems equally weird to point to the fact she mentions the wagon on you and not the one on James to suggest they might be partners.

There is enough floating about and I think weak arguments like this are just starting to cloud the issue.

[Val89]

Give me a moment and I'll post an actual response.

James, can we expect to see this any time soon, or do you feel like the the VFP/Grandpa interaction has offered up sufficient excuse to dodge again?

[Val89]

@Grandpa; no offense, but I feel the smart move here would just be to shut up here until VFP does give you something to actually respond to.

Scum may well use this as a distraction, and you don't want to play into their hands. If VFP is seriously scum hunting, I am sure more will follow.

[Val89]

If you got to a hammer or lose and chose someone to vote because their name had an 8 in it and you think 8 is unlucky, and it just so happens to hit scum, doesn't mean going off of the number in their name is valid.

That might be true, but picking someone to vote because their name has an 8 in it ISN'T meta. You know what meta is, because you use it correctly elsewhere, so why are you trying to slip this non-argument past us?

[Val89]

I can't read Zyla's mind: 184 is different than mine, there's the formal comment for my not-so-formal comment just prior.

I don't understand the "formal comment" bit, but #184 is a long time AFTER #145, when you first say you and Zyla have different reasons.

Zyla seemed more like a vibe read or trying for a 1v1. At least that's what I felt about it when I read Zyla's posts.

Clear this up for me now, please: If these are the reasons you thought Zyla was scumreading Grandpa, tell me

why

. What did Zyla say or do that made you think that

before

post #145?

[Val89]

What about the number 7?

You know what meta is too, VFP. Voting someone because any 'number in name' is an example of non-serious RVS justification, not Meta.

I am curious why you think your question was helpful.

[Val89]

To be clear.

I voted grandpa for doing x.

Not all that much clearer if you don't actually mention what 'x' is.

[Val89]

it feels like you're purposefully trying to be rude

I'm not. Sorry if it feels that way.

I don't like the fact that it read as "You aren't scummy, but you're the only possible scum"

Spoiler:

If Grandpa doesn't scumread someone, how are they possible scum? That just doesn't make sense, could be just bad logic though.

FWIW, I read that as "I don't assign you a full scrumread, just a scumlean, but you are the only scumlean I have so far".

Fair enough, but I don't see the point in emphasizing that when it's day 1.

I thought we had established (and agreed) that Grandpa wasn't saying "you aren't scummy", but "you are my only scumlean"?

[Val89]

Well, my #290 was predicated on that former interpretation. I rescind it.

I read you scummy for it because what I thought you were saying was "Yes, you are right,

but

[nonsensical follow up that was unnecessary and served only to have something to hang a but on]". I see now I was wrong about that.

The phrasing of "I don't fully scumread you but you are like the only one who I see that could be possible scum." is bit awkward for sure. You bought it up as point 3 of 5 is a list of "reasons why Zyla thinks Grandpa is scummy". I gave you my interpretation as to what I think he was trying to express. If you disagree, can you articulate why you consider this specific phrasing to be AI? Do you think it was deliberate in order to distract, or something?

[Val89]

Feel free not to read 184. Zyla here links to a post where she explained why she scum read Grandpa. Which is earlier than 145.

Indeed. Against Grandpa's name, she linked #103; in which she outlined her case against

VFP.

At the end, she quotes a part of Grandpa's #83 and says she doesn't understand it -

but I fail to see the part where she says why she is scrum reading

Grandpa

.

It's important, because you later go on to authoritatively claim that you and Zyla have different reasons for scumreading Grandpa. I have previously suggested it was because you either scum slip that you are in private thread with

Zyla

, or else you are trying to put words in her mouth.

Zyla herself acknowledges you haven't explained what's going on here and asks for qualification in her #208, while suggesting there is a third alternative.

Zyla, are you satisfied with James' responses, here?

[Val89]

In 145, I was just saying we had different reasons, I never commented on the validity of her reads.

Correct, but the whole argument here is

how you knew you had different reasons

if she never really gave those reasons prior to that statement. If someone you had just met said "I like beer", and then another persons says "I like beer too, but for different reasons"; I would come to conclusion the two knew each other and had talked about beer between themselves either, or else person 2 was just bullshiting for whatever reason.

[Val89]

Honestly I don't think I've seen VFP coast ever.

Would you classify how he has played this game so far as coasting?

[Val89]

I call it laying low and trying to avoid being scum read.

Why is that important to a townie?

[Val89]

Someone better check, but that looks like E-1 to me: Votes from Zyla, alstroemerial, Cook and T3.

[Val89]

In before James comes along and drops the hammer on this...

[Val89]

I am decidedly uneasy about Cook's sudden reappearance, with a vote, just as VFP starts to make themselves look suspicious.

[Val89]

Val what do you make of this VFP person?

If you are wanting a well-reasoned argument, you are going to have to give me some time to digest, but I really don't like how this took off all of a sudden; at a time when the players who are online now were online.

I was gradually getting scummier vibes from VFP over the course of the day, and this all feels somehow deliberately coordinated, and my gut reaction is its likely a scum!VFP who is driving it. Just trying to parse why, and who else benefits from a quick VFP lim here, if that was to be the outcome.

[Val89]

Okay, fair, but do you at least agree that if we all did it we'd be in a bit of a problem?

Can I ask you to clarify what you meant by "it" here, Alstroemarial?

[Val89]

They have an issue with me being stingy during RVS voting for Val, me moving my vote onto GrandpaMo, me saying I have different reasons for voting than Zyla, and my "inactivity", I don't get the issue, I can't address things more than they are address-able.

To clear to you James (and the rest of players), the problem isn't so much you being stingy during RVS voting for Val (and the non-rvs stage following), it was being stingy whilst simultaneously saying stuff

like

this

.

You were also weirdly defensive at the start, even when you weren't really under any pressure. I said I like your D1 solve attempt, and somehow you took that as me throwing shade at your slot, and then continued to insist I must have been disingenuous even after I pointed out I was serious. I think I've demonstrated over the course of the game that it was my true belief - that I think it is better for town to have as much on the table as possible.

I'll get around to Zylas question in a moment once I've had a few moments to try and decode Grandpa's recent posts. I've had a nap, and woke up with a slightly different take on what happened, but I'll explain what I was thinking at the time and why.

[Val89]

Cook, I'm assuming this is coming from a place of trying to helpful rather than mislead, but if you had been around a little earlier, that table would look VERY different.

I'm not all that familiar with the forum software, but is it possible to generate from as-of, say, six hours ago?

[Val89]

Val :why did you think James would hammer without announcing intent? And would that be coming from Town or Scum James?

It was a gut reaction. At the time, I assumed it would come from a scum!James. Thinking about it now, it was a load of crap, but play suddenly took off today just as my reads were beginning to shift and took me by suprise. I'll explain.

Spoiler: Second thoughts about town!VFP:

Firstly, I thought VFP was starting to sound more scummy than I pegged them for originally. I had them down as one of those "low-content" players, like T3, but had read initially the content we had as Town leaning in #161. Since then, there was barely anything from them. VFPs #201 was a straight prod-dodge for example.

VFP didn't reply constructively to #207, and it went ignored, so I started paying closer attention to what was posted.

Spoiler: Interactions between VFP and James (via me):

VFP drops their 'Grandpa is scum' post, and James #319 says "Give me a moment and I'll post an actual response.". Grandpa comes in and starts trying to defend themselves, and James joins the Grandpa attack.

I thought scum!James was doing his usual trick of saying or implying he will get back to something later, and then quietly dropping it (cross-ref: #95, #206); and was using VFPs and Grandpa's back-and-forth as his cover. I point this out, and try and have Grandpa shut up.

James post his replies, and one of those replies is one of those truthful statements that sound like a reasonable argument to something, but don't address the question, and I zero in on that in #343. Given what I said about VFP not posting much of substance to that point, it's a surprise to me that VFP responds.

It pings me pretty hard, but it could just be one of those things. I answer it anyway, and the follow up is even weirder, and I start to think not only is VFP acting scummy - they are making it so obvious they WANT me to think they are scummy; and my mind wonders why? While I initially thought James was taking independent advantage of the Grandpa 'push' I wonder if VFP could be

deliberately

draw me into a conversation about how scummy he is acting to lay some noise in the thread James can slip away in again and look like he's answered the case against him; so I decide to take my own advice to Grandpa and shut up, as to not play into it.

Spoiler: VFPs "Look at me, I'm so scum" game:

Zyla's noticed, and pivoted her vote back on the VFP. Alstroemerial does the same, and the reference to 'coasting' makes me believe they were making the pivot for basically the same reasons as I identified.

Then there is the smoking gun post VFP must KNOW is going to get him scum read by any newbie game in all of cyberspace.

You call it coasting.
I call it laying low and trying to avoid being scum read.

I can't help but think it was deliberate. It draws another two votes in rapid succession. VFP is E-1. I'm really uneasy, because I think VFP must be doing this deliberately and the only reason I can immediately think for scum!VFP doing it is to get a quickhammer, end the day, and deny us information. I count the votes, post that, see who isn't voting him yet, and start thinking where the hammer vote could come from - It won't come from me until I've had plenty of time to digest what's happening, so that leaves Grandpa or James (being a newbie, I forget he could self-hammer here).

Spoiler: My concern about a James hammer:

I've made no secret that James is my number one scumread. The play feels deliberate, and I can't think of a reason town!VFP would WANT to get himself hammered at this point, so I have to assume a scum!VFP. My gut says a town!Grandpa does seem a reactive player who might be the type to drop the hammer on VFP, particularly just after VFP has started attacking Grandpa, so I wonder if

that's

the play - scum!VFP has decided to try and induce town!Grandpa into hammering him, perhaps the remain scum (James) then NKs me or Alstroemerial who also seemed sus of James, and the remaining Town lim Grandpa D2. The remaining town then are all basically town reading James less whomever of me or Alstro survives, who could be taken out N2, and he might go on to win for scum.

The only other place the hammer could come from is James himself. He is online and posting, and I also figure that scenario might give scum!James some superficial towncred for taking out someone who flips red. The second the hammer drops, It might be day over if Nahdia is online so I quickly want to try and put the thought that a scum!James might be the one dropping the hammer out there, and also to give him a moments pause before doing so, and so I quick-reply my #392 on to the thread.

Then I remember self-hammer is a thing, and in this scenario, that would be scum!VFPs play. It's moot anyway, because within a few seconds of posting #392, T3 unvotes.

I still gut-think the case above for linking {James, VFP} as the scumpair is there for the reasons I mention; although I do intend to think hard on it, but I realise now the hammer was never going to come from James.I also wonder if sacrificing scum!VFP to let scum!James slip through is actually the right play for that pairing. I've said why I think that would leave a D3 town that basically all townreads James, but at the moment this all started, only Zyla was openly reading VFP as anything other than townlean, and a wagon was starting to form on Zyla anyhow, so I don't think scum!VFP revealing themselves makes more than sense than just staying hidden in case James did end up getting limmed today; particularly as Cook's thoughts on James aren't known. I also realise I make assumptions that the mafia are able to get both nightkills off, and we might be in a setup where that isn't a given.

TL:DR for Norwee:

I started to see interactions between James and VFP that made me consider them as the scumteam. I thought scum!VFP might be deliberately making themselves look scummy to induce a quickhammer and end the day, but forgot self-hammers were a thing. On reflection, I was talking out my arse.

As an aside, I'm giving Grandpa +1000 scum points if this post gets quoted by him at any point without snipping it.

[Val89]

I have to say that recent posting by Grandpa is also starting to give me the creeps. He is so desperate to come off as town it's unreal.

The only thing that is giving me pause is that I can't believe if it is scum!Grandpa; then his partner hasn't already told him to knock it off already before he throws the game.

[Val89]

Maybe it's T3, he's a pretty silent partner, lol

What do you mean?

[Val89]

Anyway i will let this point ruminate as i wait to see James's response to all of this.

Did you get what you were expecting, Norwee?

[Val89]

James answered our concern to my more-or-less satisfaction, at least relative to other people, awhile ago, but you seem to keep insisting he hasn't

Listen, folks, I've spent the last hour-and-a-half trying to relook at James with fresh eyes. It appears at this point that Grandpa is the only other person onboard with James-as-scum, and I get the impression over the last 2 or 3 pages that some of the posts he has been doing seem to be aimed at linking me and him together, which is starting to give me pings that perhaps I can't trust his judgement on it.

I'm saying to myself "Come on, you are 99% sure James is scum at this point, and you've been at-least fairly sure of it since Friday. Nobody else seems to be agreeing with you at this point, apart from a possible scum; and everyone else seems to agree {Grandpa, James} is never going to be a thing, so maybe time to look again, eh?"

So, I decided to challenge myself to come up with a town-case for James, just privately for now, trying to forget my pre-convinced ideas, bearing in mind what Norwee has said - and I'm sorry, but I just can't do it. I can't generate any case for myself to say Town!James, and I'm worried, because I can do it to some degree or another for every other player in the game; even Cook, who has made almost zero contributions thus far.

Please, help me out here, has

anyone

got a case for a town James that goes further than "Meh, seems town to me; you might understand better when you aren't a newb"? Please and thank you.

[Val89]

thats what i tried doing too :/

nd it didnt workout -- just recieved "backlash for it"

No, listen, Grandpa, I don't mean to be rude, but that's clearly not what you have done - you've just reiterated a

Scum

case on James and I want to hear a

Town

case on James. Frankly, unless you are going to start posting reasons why you think James could actually be town - in such a way that I'll be able to follow them - yours is only opinion I don't want right now. I've got myself here by trying to game out a Scum!Grandpa.

Maybe you pay a little more attention to a post when you see your name in it, but I've started to notice you've been pushing the idea of a {Val, James} scum pair as early as #268, something you've brought up again today in #465, and you seem desperate to get feedback from the other players as to how far that idea has started to implant. It feels a bit like you are starting to try and set me up for the D2 lim, knowing that James is going to flip red today. I know I then have to read you and James as scum v scum and I'm struggling to see that right now, but I'm not seeing an alternative.

Then again, t3 says trying to link people together and set up for the elimination the next day in something town!Grandpa does; so I don't fully know where I am at. Regardless, I want to hear from others now on James.

[Val89]

t3, If you are suggesting we get rid of Grandpa just to clear out some of the noise, I am afraid I like that idea a lot more than I probably ought. It's one of the reasons I said this 300 posts ago.

what I do get is a sense that Grandpa is trying as hard as he can to advance the game, and is getting as frustrated at not being able to put what he wants to put across effectively as I sometimes get frustrated trying to decode it. It seems far too...I guess genuine, to be scum deliberately trying to derail and distract, but the inconsistences and the effect it's having on town makes Grandpa the clear and easy target for a a mislim; and smart scum have probably tuned into that already. I don't think its a coincidence, for example, that both my scumreads are on that wagon.

[Val89]

Now hold on a darn tooting minute! I have been absent all day, as has Zyla; and you are ready to drop the hammer on someone?

Grandpa, if you are town, there is no good reason at all for you to self-hammer here, so don't do it, and don't threaten to do it - it only clouds the issue.

If the VC is correct, the hammer has to come from me, Alstro or Zyla and at least two of those haven't yet had a change to engage with the past page or two. We aren't in a rush here - we've near 5 days left, and the game put in a burst of energy yesterday we haven't had a change to digest properly, or at least I haven't. I think any sort of hammer at this point would be a mistake - as I saw posted by a mod on a completed game thread; scum thrives in spontaneity

[Val89]

635 makes me wish I was the hammer.

I'm sure you do, given that not knowing what the hell YOU (VFP) were playing at yesterday is the biggest red flag that makes me think we might be barrelling towards a mislim here.

[Val89]

If the VC is correct, the hammer has to come from me, Alstro or Zyla

Correction: T3 is also a possible source of a non-self hammer vote here

[Val89]

You call it hell, I call it finding scum.
You're welcome.

I am trying to think how making yourself appear scummy assists town in finding scum, but I am struggling.

Is this another one of those things I'm just going to be told "you will understand later, newb", or is there an established argument for it?

[Val89]

You say I was playing scummy, I say I was baiting, and it worked.

I'm not convinced that it did though.

Giving Boftd that you were baiting scum, and you think you've caught Grandpa as scum; you've now got to convince the rest of us to lim him. I can't speak for the others, but I'm finding lot harder to accept that argument from someone I've started to think is a scumlean that it would be from the townlean I had you as previously. You must have known that going in.

I think a town player of any experience should have at least some understanding that making themselves appear scummy is only going to create an atmosphere of doubt the scum can thrive in. If anyone comes at me and points out reasons that I might appear scummy, am

I

allowed to just say "haha just baiting", and expect everyone to accept that?

[Val89]

Here is the thing. My scum reads have changed over the course of last couple of pages since everything started to take off.

Alstro

I still have as town.

James

I still have as strong scum, and the fact that nobody has been able - or willing - to even attempt to articulate any case why James is not scum other than the "seems town, you'll get why later" thing you told me was trash gives me no pause that I'm on the wrong track. I

want

to believe that you lot are seeing something that I'm not; I realise I'm basically a lone-voice in having James as a strong scumread at this point, and its possible that I've erred somewhere. But reading everything again, even with the best will in the world - even making the mental assumption that I've seen him flip town already and I'm going back with that foreknowledge -

I just can't see it.

Zyla

, on the other hand, has dug her way out of my scum pile.

Norwee

replaces her there.

Cook

I can't get a handle on. VFP and t3 have swapped positions - I consider

t3

a townlean, and

VFP

a scumlean at this point.

And there there is

Grandpa

, whom, despite all my misgivings, I still think is more likely to flip green than they are red. I am in agreement that unless both have put in an Oscar winning performance {James, GrandpaMo} just isn't the scum pairing in this game. Either one is red, or both are green.

So, assume with lim Grandpa today. He flips red. Great, I was wrong about James. I eat my brown Homberg hat and face the fact that I might not be as good at reading as I thought. But if he flips green - which I think is the most likely outcome - what do we know then?

[Val89]

Problem is, VFP, I happen to agree with Grandpa that James has been somewhat evasive through out, and I don't think I am the only one.

We get things that purport to be answers, for sure; but we also just-as-often get stuff like #516 which looks fancy, but reading it several times leaves me no clearer to what is being said.

Take also James reply (#342) to my point about him happy to work with meta reads in his previous games, but wants us to believe he doesn't believe in them in this game (#202).

You [VFP] know what a meta read is, because you are making one here against Grandpa. You also read James' reply, because you commented on it. Are you really satisfied that answering a question about meta reads with an answer as to why RVS-style reasoning is shit is in any way satisfying? When it was pointed out to him that's what he did (and I think it's rather interesting this was a point that VFP(#357) decided to weigh in on, despite the "laid-back, low-content" approach VFP had thus far), he just ignores the issue; which is why I find the "I've typed words, if you don't like them I can't do anything about that" type answer we get from him so unsatisfying.

You [VFP] are pushing on Grandpa for apparently being evasive, so why is James being given a free pass for the same thing under your nose? (#342-347)

[Val89]

I see a universe in which Val and Grandpa are partners if Grandpa flips scum.

Yeah, I don't blame you; I can't say he hasn't given people reasons to think he is scum of late, and I would be concerned if people weren't picking up on me defending him as I do.

I just think he's the really easy target for a town mis-lim, and that scum are the ones driving this wagon.

[Val89]

Both?

Well, given that you are on it - at last one; and if I were a betting man, I would say both, yes.

For one of the scum not to be on it, that means the other scum is in {T3, Alstro or Zyla}, and those are my townreads currently.

[Val89]

What concerns you about Norwee?

A couple of things.

[spoiler='Lets not talk about that'.]

In post 249, Val89 wrote:
"He's town because he gives no shits about doing this things he says town should do, I'm an SE slot you newb so trust me." I ain't buying that.

Ok, newb.

This was the first thing to ping me. It seemed like we were having a productive conversation that was helping me sort what my case about James really was - it was genuinely helpful to me, but it was being helpful in strengthening my read rather than poke holes in it; and I think the second Norwee picked up I wasn't moving in the town!James direction, he drops it hard. It was written off later as a joke, which I buy, but you could substitute "Let's drop it then" for the joke, and that doesn't seem like something town would do.

I feel like when we (me + alstro) have disagreements on reads, we thrash it out, and even if we don't come to the same conclusion at the end, its been helpful. That seems like a more town approach than "if I can't convince you, let's drop it".

Whilst at the time I thought the whole thing was helpful, and Norwee was townleading for starting it, I think it retrospect Norwee just pegged me as a wordy guy, and bet on me not being able to summarise the case, in which case he could point to that and go "See, its crap". I note the initial target of that was Grandpa, whom strikes me as a person who was even less likely to be able to sum up the case concisely.[/spoiler]

Spoiler: Case on Zyla

The case against Zyla also seemed a little forced. At the time, I agreed Zyla was one of my scumreads; and there has been a case made that Norwee is townleaning because they didn't immediately jump on James or Grandpa wagon; and instead tried to start something new again Zyla. Personally, I can see a world in which a scum!Norwee doesn't want to throw his lot in with the Grandpa wagon, which, at the time - was Zyla and James; and if James is is scum partner, and it's pretty clear I am leading the push against his scum buddy. Knowing my other SR is Zyla, and knowing they are going to flip green, he moves on that; not so much to start some new discussion overall, but to get ME to focus somewhere else; and he was pretty straightforward about it too.

The case he gives is, in retrospect, a little underwhelming too. First he takes issue with Zyla quickly switching over to Grandpa "when seeing no reaction from [her] "wanting no lim is scummy" vote on VFP." (#273); but isn't that exactly what he himself did? Saw the Zyla wagon wasn't taking off and switch to Grandpa?

Then there is the "trust tell" thing, which I don't buy. If fact, it seems like one of those 'buzzwordy' type cases that sound really strong he might be able to slip past the newbs, particularly as you [Alstro] expressed confusion on the point just before he joined. Reading into it, it amounts to nothing, and the fact noone else has ad anything to say makes me thing its obviously nothing, but he tried to sell it as if it was totally damning.

Spoiler: Drop it or you are scum

I don’t think James is scum here, but the extreme tenacity some slots have in continuing to keep that spark of hope that we lim James today alive is quite telling too. And i think you should know who i mean.

What do you make of this? There's nothing explicit here, but I read it as an implicit threat; and I think it's aimed at me. "You [Val] need to drop this James thing, else I'm going to start calling you scum". Nah, sorry, but telling someone who thinks they have scum in their sight they need to drop it doesn't read as town to me. By all means, attack the argument, say you disagree and why, and make your own case, but this sort of thing pings me as scummy.

All in all, I think there is a case for a {James, Norwee} pair, but there's one for a {James, VFP} pair too, and I don't have enough to say which I think is more likely yet. James is a strong read, but both Norwee and VFP are scumleans - here is some of the stuff that pinged me on Norwee, and I think the stuff that pinged me about VFP is obvious from the questions I posed above; but I don't think the case on either of them is anywhere near as conclusive as the stuff on James is.

[Val89]

337 is 134 less than 571, and 491 is 80 less.

The maths is absolutely spot on, but that only matters if you did in fact answer the question in #491.

You didn't. I've pointed this out, Grandpa pointed this out,Alstro pointed this out. Now, all 3 of us can't be scum, can we?

[Val89]

Stop being stubborn it's so clear that you don't have any cases against me anymore.

A+ defense. I am totally convinced.

[Val89]

Are you claiming Mason or no?

[Val89]

I'll be honest, I don't consider fake claiming, semi-fake claiming or whatever it is you are trying to do here as town behaviour. Are you walking back your VT claim or not?

[Val89]

I think we are looking at scum!Grandpa now, and I may actually be eating my hat at some point in the next few days.

That said, we still have 4 days, and there might be some value in letting him flail some more. I'm sure this all supposed to be what scum!Grandpa called "200iq wifom" in his mafia pt last scum game he had, but it might be possible to draw some conclusions from what he did there and draw parallels to this game.

I have changed my mind in that I think it's more likley a red flip than a green flip now, but my concern that seeing this flip green gives us no real information still stands.

Going into the lim while I still have a straight up null read in Cook is also something I'm a little uneasy about.

[Val89]

Something else can concerns me is the abrupt change between #711-712 and #713 onwards, in the space of 7 minutes and in response to no-one. I think it's fairly clear he is just throwing stuff out there and hoping something might stick, but if we are wrong about James, then continuing the attack on James would also serve his purpose, surely.

I think there are two things to consider: one, that he knows I've already said that Scum!Grandpa = Town!James, and if he is right about him getting hammered once Zyla comes along, and we see him flip red, continuing an attack on James makes little sense.

Second is the content that James and Grandpa were discussing: which is how he might be scum buddies with either me or T3. Grandpa has in general been rather concerned with finding out who certain people think he might be scum buddies with, if he theoretically flips red. The conversation with James has prompted posts like #704; Grandpa himself has said "person a - yes and ur partner is possibly t3; " in the proceeding post to his sudden change of heart on James. If Zyla is right about Grandpa writing stream-of-consciousness style, it occurs to me it's possible scum!Grandpa realises this is only drawing attention to his scumbuddy and immediately jumps into "Val is bad! Val is BAAAD!!"

I can see where the idea of a {Grandpa, Val} came from. Does anyone recall where the idea of {Grandpa, T3} was first floated, and why? I know we might well be getting into the realm of the pre-flip associative now, but to my recollection T3 was one of those "laid-backs", to borrow Grandpa' term, and hasn't given us all that much to read them with, yet alone to start partnering them off.

[Val89]

Cook said he was already voting for you in his post.

This sort of thing is starting to drift towards the level of trying to insult our intelligence.

[Val89]

They*, sorry.

[Val89]

my vote might have already have been there

[Val89]

Grandpa claiming vt only comes from towngrandpa.

OK, I'll bite. How big is the same size, and what does scum!Grandpa claim?

[Val89]

Sample*

[Val89]

Val is super convinced Grandpa is town anyway,

This isn't actually the case, any longer.

I said in my initial read that GrandpaMo was the one I was struggling with the most, and he had done stuff I consider scummy as often as he had townie. I came down on the townie side because I thought the frustration I detected in not being able to put his point across and his logic not being understood was genuine, and the difficulty we were having in phrasing it wasn't because of deliberate decisions on his part.

Over the course of the last few pages, though, whilst under pressure, that scale has decidedly tipped in the scummy direction. Grandpa himself has been keen to have us read his previous games, where I found this, in his scum game.

and nah the headache walls were actually half bs and half truth.

Turns out, Grandpa does know what he is doing with his "walls", and uses it as a scum tool.

I'm ready to vote Grandpa, but I did think there is some value in letting him flail some more, and also in hearing some more from Cook. If we aren't getting any more out of this, then I'll be happy with the hammer sometime today.

[Val89]

Didn’t read Val’s post on me. But their suspicion has been noted.

It's things like this that fuel that suspicion, Norwee.

If I were scum, how would ever be able to deduce that if you don't read my posts?

[Val89]

If Grandpa genuinely thought he was hammered (which I think is the case), then his immediately subsequent posts tell a lot.

Key word here is "genuniely".

After cook drops the faux-hammer:

damn i guess im hammered well gl town

Few posts later:

pls let me live t3. u are literally the only one who knows how i play lol

Next post, back to:

well its ok im hammered. so its too late. ig ur dying wit me now

Yeah, appeal to t3 to let you live at a time you 'genuinely' believe you are hammered. Does t3 have hidden mod powers we don't know about?

[Val89]

Yes, I am actually scum reading - or at least scumleaning you - I see no point at all in being dishonest about my reads. They might change over time, but if I say I think someone is acting scummy at that point then I believe it.

I prefer being seen ambigiously anyway by my townreads as it lets me stay in the game and solve for longer.

How? I don't see that. I'm reading VFP leanscum for the same sort of thing, so if this is an actual legit play, I'd like to know how.

[Val89]

If you become top town day 1 you’re just an easy target.

Yeah, maybe to scum, but why do you want your townreads to think you might be scummy?

If I could figure it out myself, I wouldn't be asking.

[Val89]

if I were him I would have claimed a pr to draw the c.

Honestly, all the crap he is spouting about "this is my claim but not really" and trying to encourage you to claim Mason looks like he

is

trying to draw a cc.

[Val89]

so if Val really insists, i will answer his long walls.

Not exactly what I was taking issue with. I'm not expecting to receive an in depth reply to everything I say about you, but to imply your aren't even

reading

it is the issue.

[Val89]

I am trying to follow the logic here, but coming up blank.

You say you don't want to appear try-harding in case you draw the NK, but then that last post makes it's sound like you want us to believe you are honestly only skimming. There is a world of difference between simply outwardly not

appearing

to solve, and honestly not actually putting in the effort.

Secondly, I don't see how making yourself seem ambiguous to your townreads helps you avoid the NK. Scum ain't going to buy it, they know full well you are town, no matter what you do. The only people who are going to be fooled by that are town, and as you alluded to happened in a previous game of yours, is only likley to get you mislimmed.

I also imagine that appearing "top town" is just as likley to draw protection from town PRs with that capability as it is to draw attention from night-killing scum, and they need to take that into account too.

[Val89]

I’m more concerned with Grandpa now as there are some things pointing to him being town, and some scum. And so i believe a flip there would be very good and informative.

What do you think we could take from Grandpa flipping town?

I know from my perspective if he flips scum, I'm going to seriously reconsidering my read on James, but what do you think we gain from a town flip?

[Val89]

T3 too for maybe white knight. None of their interactions have felt genuine there.

Interestingly enough, T3 would be where I would start to look next if he flipped red.

[Val89]

Wait, you can just use the tag "post" 838 and have the links inserted automatically? I've been manually copying the URL this entire time

[Val89]

Is this something you would post to a scum partner?

Scum in general? Probably not.

Grandpa specifically? I think they might just. Open up the mafia PT, and the end-game discussion from his scum gameand do a control-f for "wifom".

It's difficult to follow the trademark Grandpa logic, but if you eventually get anything other than the idea that scum Grandpa has the absolute craziest ideas when it comes to that sort of stuff, let me know.

I haven't gone through the game deep enough to figure out if he actually

did

anything quite as crazy, but it's clear he was at least considering it.

[Val89]

but we are definitely going to be taking a close look at Cook.

Amen to that...

[Val89]

Unofficial vote count, please check for accuracy:

Grandpa: James, VFP, (now Val) (3) E-2
VFP: Zyla, Norwee, Cook (3) E-2
Val: Grandpa (1)
Not voting: T3, Alstro (2)

VOTE: GrandpaMo

[Val89]

Whilst I note that Grandpa isn't meeting your challenge; are you sure a further claim at this point is good for town?

[Val89]

It could also be me, at the edge of my seat, hammering that refresh button.

[Val89]

Are we allowed to post after a hammer?

[Val89]

You wouldn't believe me if I told you I figured out what was about to happen, would you?

[Val89]

I figured that there wasn't really any way a town PR would invite us to make them claim on D1 against a possible scum VT claim. I considered for a moment the possibility of a scum!VFP play where you about to drop a fake claim in order to try draw a CC.

Then I started looking where the hammer could come from if grandpa did put you E-1 like I did last time we got in this situation, which is why I did the vote count, except I didn't forget the possibility of a self-hammer this time; and I had an "oh", moment.

[Val89]

Is he already trying his best to dodge the lim tomorrow?

[Val89]

GrandpaMo:

town!grandpa doesnt care bout dying

Also GrandpaMo, after someone

else

gets hammered:

"Claim Mason with me! Claim Mason with me! No, YOU claim Mason with me!"

[Val89]

And we'd likely still want to go for Grandpa at that point.

No, there is no

likely

about it. Bar some super improbable game shattering event, We lim Grandpa tomorrow 100%. No point town!VFP 'trading' if we let the scum his trade catches walk free.

[Val89]

we both scum and u just voted ur self

You meant to type you are both "town" here and slipped, just like in you did in your last scum game, didn't you??

[Val89]

Even so, there is a difference between referring to town in the third person, and calling yourself "both scum".

[Val89]

tell me why you scumread me? also don't mention anything of the past 10 pages.

I have no words. Why not make it the last 38 pages?

does this mean you think james is town now?

Yes, as embarrassing as it is for me, I do. I'll be spending some time going over the Grandpa/James interactions to make sure we aren't being led up the garden path, but right now, I think I can locktown James and extend a "Sorry".

wait if there is cop pls cop check me omg game will be solved holy shit -- DO NOT THROW I STG AND CHECK ME

If we are in a cop game, and whomever it is falls for that one, I shall be sorely disappointed.

lets play the silent game -- whoever talks next is scum and gets limmed tmr >:D

Lim me. You won't.

[Val89]

Zyla, I have a question for you actually.

Scumcase me, but don't use anything I said in even number pages; and don't use the letter "I" in any of the words you use. Betcha you can't!

[Val89]

My response to 977

My .. claim ... scum .. anyone reading .. can see .. pretty clear

Hm. vote val.

Fuck. I thought you where NEVER going to find that breadcrumb.

[Val89]

I'm not going to be around as much has I have been so far this weekend; so if there is something that needs to come out regarding the night play, better make it soon, folks!

That said, I don't think there is any better play right now than

VOTE: GrandpaMo

[Val89]

Confirm. Cook is mod-confirmed town.

so if there is something that needs to come out regarding the night play, better make it soon, folks!

I appologise that I wasn't entirely sure of the best play with regards to this yesterday - I assumed the play wasn't to come straight out and broadcast someone elses claim without some sort of hint that's what they wanted, but since the claim is now out there - Yes, Cook is FN.

Given this, the rest of the play makes a bit more sense. Cook knew that, provided I didn't cop it last night, they would be confirmed today, so they didn't need really give all that many shits making sure town read them as town yesterday.

I also suspect Zyla was killed specifically to throw suspicion onto Cook today, which implies that scum didn't spot both (all 3? The signuture changed half way through d1, right?) breadcrumbs yesterday.

[Val89]

Did you spot the crumbs prior to day 2 beginning?

I did, but being as obvious as they were, I wasn't sure if it was a red herring or not before I actually got the mod message; and in any case, I didn't consider appropriate to point them out yesterday.

For the record, I didn't find T3 scummy for this (in fact, given the small size of Cook's ISO, I was starting to get scum vibes from those claiming NOT to have spotted it, even when directed towards to the ISO, but given that more than one player has implied they didn't see it, I'm going to consider it NAI for now), but I did already start to consider T3 suspicious for the play around Grandpa yesterday.

Since my read on T3 is only a matter of playing the probabilities (my second biggest candidate for a Grandpa scum partner after T3 is actually yourself, Norwee) and seeing Grandpa flip scum will erase any residual doubt I have about James, I still think Grandpa is the lim for today.

I should also point out that Zyla's first-hand knwoledge re: T3s scum play as per 562 may be another possible reason for a Zyla kill last night.

[Val89]

Not really. There was just no way of pointing it out yesterday without also laying it out for scum - Cooks' ISO was about all of about 10 posts - and if I had, I doubt they would have survived the night for you to have your evidence.

All in all, I'm happy with the way I've played this. I breadcrumbed that something happened last night in 1004, but I didn't think outting it straight away was the correct play. I'm sure someone can correct me if I should have done something different for my own reference next time this comes up in post game.

[Val89]

For the advoidance of doubt, the "Not really" in the above post relates to Norwee's 1114

[Val89]

I think if we going into the night with only one scum alive, yes, it's a town win.

We are 5v2 right now. We are in column B, so Mafia aren't doing any roleblocking. Cook is conftown. We either have a tracker or a jailkeep.

Let's say we elim Grandpa today and they flip scum, which I find highly probable; then I suspect the other scum is in T3 or Norwee, leaning towards T3. Either PR targets whomever they find scummiest. The remaining scum has to decide whether to try for the kill and risk being outted by the PR if they don't hit them, and, unless the rolecop hit the other PR last night, they only have a 25% of hitting the other PR if we don't force them to out today. The other scum else has to decide to do nothing in order to put suspicion onto the person who does get JK'd/tracked; hope the town PR targets the wrong person, and go into D3 5v1; with a conftown alive - something I can't see a single scum doing.

If we elim either T3 or Norwee today, and we guess wrong, then the other town PR has to guess which of the scum is doing the killing, and things get dicey. Limming Grandpa is the play today, unless there is still anyone who thinks they are flipping town and 2 scum are going to go through to night 2; and I don't think there is anyone left seriously reading Grandpa as town now (apart from T3, who is sus themselves), right?

If we do give scum!Grandpa the boot today, then even if we hit the wrong one tomorrow, I think we've time to take out the other on D4 even in the unlikley event the remaining scum does manage to get both kills off and not get outted by the remaing PR on D3. (2 town v 1 scum is a town win, if the scum is known, right?).

[Val89]

either to try and hit the other Power Role, 1/3

Actually, you are correct. Presuming they got the rolecop off, didn't rolecop Cook last night, and didn't hit the other PR already, scum can eliminate one of the town with last nights result, so it's 33%, not 25%. Still not great odds for a lone scum.

[Val89]

The way I see it is I would prefer a T3 hammer today without a shadow of a doubt

I'm listening, but I see a T3 lim as being much more worse play for town than a Grandpa lim today. My reasons are set out in post 1122. Do you find fault with that analysis?

A Grandpa flip clears you; I don't see what a T3 flips over-and-above putting the crosshairs back on Grandpa. The other consideration is that, given my analysis in 1122; I really don't see how, unless someone straight up scumslips, further discussion is going to lead to anyone getting scumread harder than Grandpa. In fact, I see further disccsuion is only likley to generate a further town claim today, perhaps by forcing a CC if scum tries claiming it, and I don't see how outting our other PR, if they don't have anything important to tell us today already, is beneficial to town.

[Val89]

Apparently only Val and Alstro are people Grandpa wants to hear the opinion of.

Grandpa is trying to use us to try convince us to give him another night and lim him tomorrow. He knows the only chance scum have here is both of them are alive at the start of the night.

If he's been reading my posts, he knows full well what I am going to say if I answer him directly, and you can probably guess at Alstro's answer too, and if it's not scum he going to start pushing whomever we say in the hope he can convince us to lim them first, or get them into hammer range and force a claim. It's transparent, and I'm not playing.

[Val89]

[Val89]

Did I miss the link to the scum PT? I think that'll be an interesting read.

[Val89]

Cheers, and thanks for modding the game. I had a lot of fun.