Newbie 2069: Summertime [game over!]

[Roden]

VOTE: The Bulge

Hero solve.

[Roden]

How did that happen? Lol

[Roden]

However, #25 and #26 are reasonable concerns. But I won't rule out the possibility that scum could've jumped on it to look town either.

What makes you think it wasn't just RVS to gauge your reaction? Not sure why you got so defensive, you weren't in any danger of being voted out.

[Roden]

Not sure what to think of Bakslash avoiding participating in RVS. I think scum would want to blend in and throw a random vote out though.

[Roden]

I currently have three scum reads life is just beautiful ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Three scum reads this early? What's your metric?

[Roden]

I think you're reading too much into RVS.

VOTE: StrangeMatter

[Roden]

I think you're reading too much into RVS.

VOTE: StrangeMatter

I also think you are scum. Tell me why Strange matter is scum and you aren't "reading too much into RVS" or is that just another RVS vote?
For bonus points, figure out why I think you are scum

Kinda figured I was one of your three.

I have no way of knowing why Strange is scum, the game just started. I just put a vote on them to see what would happen.

Pretty sure I know why you think I'm scum. I won't entertain your reasoning though because it's pretty flimsy, and we both know you're just gauging me anyway.

I currently have three scum reads life is just beautiful ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Three scum reads this early? What's your metric?

metric?

How much/how little it takes for something to ping you.

[Roden]

Not yet. I'm waiting.

[Roden]

How much/how little it takes for something to ping you.

even the faintest sense that scum is nearby can ping me

That sounds like a pretty useless scum radar to me. Townies do scummy shit all the time.

Pretty sure I know why you think I'm scum. I won't entertain your reasoning though because it's pretty flimsy, and we both know you're just gauging me anyway.

Mind telling me what my flimsy reasoning is? or at least why you think I SR you? I do but you can get town points for answering correctly

I don't think your town points mean much if I can get scum points just for commenting on Bakslash's post.

[Roden]

Roden are you a newbie? tell me a bit about your mafia experience please!

I am, I just read up a bunch on the game over the past couple months. Mainly just the wiki, but also some Newbie games and example games. Never really played post-by-post Mafia until joining this site though. I've played Mafia casually as a party game with friends though.

I don't think your town points mean much if I can get scum points just for commenting on Bakslash's post.

you think I scum read you solely because of that?

If my vote on Strange pinged you then your points really do mean nothing. Scum doesn't hop on wagons that are DoA.

[Roden]

Rather than constantly discrediting me, I'd appreciate if you just answered my questions. Because if you are town here, you are making me SR you far more than you would if you just answered questions instead of being super defensive. I haven't even told you why I SR you. Relax and answer my questions. I have yet to give a solid read. Currently I only have suspicions but they mean nothing if I end up thinking you are town. If you are town, you have nothing to worry about.

Your attempts at intimidating me aren't gonna work, sorry. Your question has zero calories and adds nothing to the game. Telling me to relax when you're the one getting riled up is some interesting projection though.

[Roden]

DoA = Dead on arrival

[Roden]

Not sure what to think of Bakslash avoiding participating in RVS.

I think scum would want to blend in and throw a random vote out though

.

This was the first post that I had an issue with. It looks pretty simple upon first seeing it but I keep getting ominous feelings from it. I worry because it feels like it has ulterior motives to it. Calling out Bakslash is so random and specific given at this point in time there were multiple players who hadn't even posted. What makes you think bakslash is specifically avoiding? The part that worries me the most is the bolded part. I keep getting ominous feelings because it feels very .... idk tricky and slippery. Like I feel like its very simple and straightforward but it's also kind of saying "look I didn't just throw a random vote out to blend in. I must be town" and that level of the simplest manipulation really just makes me think noob scum.
I'm biased because noob scum me was 100% like that but I understand not all newbies are like me. But I just keep getting ominous feelings about this post. Idk this is one of my biggest issues with you atm. Lets talk this out please.

I think there's just a misunderstanding here. For one, I did vote randomly. The Bulge isn't my actual hero solve lol. And second, I commented on Bakslash because he only made one post then dipped without voting. It made him stick out for me, and it clearly was the same for Bulge since he also brought that post up.

Also, you're not the first person to try to make a case against me by saying "well that's what I would do", but every time someone's tried that we've always both been town.

The progression from shock that I had three scum reads to being like "I figured I was one of them" read kind of self conscious and fake.
I'm more worried about the fake part since i guess I could see town thinking I was talking about them and brushing it off to not seem self conscious. I totally see that since I do that occasionally and subconsciously a lot of the time also.

To clarify, the fake part is kinda like the asking what my metric was which is not something I typically would expect town to ask there because idk it feels like covering up fakeness(the shock). I might be reading too much into this tbh.

I mean, I figured I kinda had to be one of them if only five people were talking and you town read one of them. It's just process of elimination at that point since I doubt you'd be scum reading Bakslash or anyone who hadn't even posted yet.

Also wasn't really shock on my part but rather skepticism. Some body claiming to have three scum reads by post 44 and during RVS is either trying too hard to look town or they're seeing things that aren't there. At least IMO.

I asked for your metric for scum hunting because, again, three scum reads this early into the game doesn't sound like it can be based much of anything substantial.

This was all SOOOO defensive. I'm not a fan but I don't feel as strongly about this post since I've seen defensive townies that will discredit as a way to defend themselves.

That's not defensive, that's dismissive. Do you really think me answering a trivia question is worth actual town points?

Rather than constantly discrediting me, I'd appreciate if you just answered my questions. Because if you are town here, you are making me SR you far more than you would if you just answered questions instead of being super defensive. I haven't even told you why I SR you. Relax and answer my questions. I have yet to give a solid read. Currently I only have suspicions but they mean nothing if I end up thinking you are town. If you are town, you have nothing to worry about.

Your attempts at intimidating me aren't gonna work, sorry. Your question has zero calories and adds nothing to the game. Telling me to relax when you're the one getting riled up is some interesting projection though.

Man are you defensive. Oh well I'll still try to work with you if I believe you are town. We'll see

Again, dismissive, not defensive. I'm an aggressive player and don't mind it from other players, but you're being aggressive just for the sake of it. Like getting riled up over a question but then talking down to me and generally being condescending because I didn't do what you wanted. I don't think it's unfair for me to not respond positively to that.

Not saying you have to play nice, but if you go into attack mode over RVS then I can only offer back what you're giving me.

[Roden]

Actually I wanna drop them in thread before I sleep so ik where I ended the day today.
I have concerns on Italiano and bulge which worries me bc they are both SEs which makes me think im just paranoiaing myself for no good reason.

I have issues with Italiano the most and that worries me A LOT bc I almost always TR him...

Idk about Bulge but Italiano is giving me weird vibes too. Every single post just has questions that probably have predictable and boring answers. Like he's trying to look busy without really doing much.

[Roden]

I'm hoping to get some more things out of roden before dropping my vote because I have this feeling that im wrong on Roden. I feel like his refusal to cooperate with me might be town indicative. Like its really frustrating because I truly am just trying to ask him questions to figure out his alignment and his constant refusal makes me really want to SR him. At the same time, I feel like I see that coming from town more than scum so im really conflicted. Scum that cares about their survival would be more likely to just go with what im saying and trying to get on my good side here I think. Overall, im still not a fan but im getting second thoughts on this read atm.

Nora, what are you even talking about here? I've been answering your questions, and I even made a big post answering even more of your questions and clarifying my intentions and your misunderstandings. You haven't even acknowledged that yet, I feel like that's even more frustrating. It should never be alignment indicative just because someone doesn't want to play your game, especially when you're basing your suspicions on very little.

Your attempts to keep scum reading me just look scummy on your part instead fmpov. Your refusal to acknowledge my responses only add on to that. If you keep pushing a pointless wagon just because you didn't get your way, you'll be the one in the hot seat when I flip green.

[Roden]

VOTE: Roden

Ah. I wonder who'd take the coveted middle vote on my wagon.

Mind telling me why you put a naked vote on a wagon? You're not adding any pressure, and you're not giving us any content here either.

VOTE: Illwei

This isn't OMGUS. This is a serious vote. Scum want middle votes more than anything since they think it doesn't look as bad as a wagon starter or an E-1 or hammer vote. The fact you're just voting while adding nothing makes it even more scum indicative to me.

[Roden]

I think you're reading too much into RVS.

VOTE: StrangeMatter

is that why you voted them?

Already answered this. I put the vote to see what would happen.

Nora are you really just going to continue to pick and choose which posts of mine you'll read? Because if you're going to continue to death tunnel me over literally nothing I'd rather just self hammer and sign up for a new game. I already explained and answered everything I could yet you can't even be bothered to respond.

[Roden]

I'm town reading Nora at this point but I honestly wish I wasn't. Pretty sure she's just a townie giving scum a free Day 1.

[Roden]

lmao I just re read Roden and couldn't find what I was looking for I'm hallucinating over here help.

it was mostly I thought he said something about Nora's reads not meaning anything on him that I didn't like. Someone tell me if I hallucinated that into existance or not though.

You may have been thinking of the part where I said her town points quiz was pointless/meant nothing to me.

[Roden]

I'm town reading Nora at this point but I honestly wish I wasn't. Pretty sure she's just a townie giving scum a free Day 1.

fuck this makes me think you're scum even more. because I feel like newbies aren't so nuanced that they can townread me here despite me hard SRing but its also not right off the bat so maybe its genuine. honestly im pretty tunneled and I feel bad because that makes me think roden is town. for some reason, im particularly good at tunneling town and its not a great thing.

This is kind of what I mean when I say you're being condescending. Why is it so hard to imagine a newbie could be nuanced with their reads? I know you're in VLA now so this isn't getting answered, but man, this is not a good start.

[Roden]

hmmm ok I reread and there's this Roden post which isn't great, still feeling a tonal townread for sure, but thought this would be worth bringing to light

Tell me why Strange matter is scum and you aren't "reading too much into RVS" or is that just another RVS vote?

I have no way of knowing why Strange is scum, the game just started. I just put a vote on them to see what would happen.

this is a very odd response to the very common and simple request of "explain vote pls"

What's odd? I explained my vote pretty clearly here. Nora asked me why Strange is scum and I don't think it's particularly notable for me to not know why someone is scum on page 2. If anything, the question was weird and honestly was pretty loaded.

[Roden]

However, #25 and #26 are reasonable concerns. But I won't rule out the possibility that scum could've jumped on it to look town either.

What makes you think it wasn't just RVS to gauge your reaction? Not sure why you got so defensive, you weren't in any danger of being voted out.

where did Strangematter get defensive? I don't see what youre seeing.

@Roden

answer pls

...Are you serious? You and Nora both reacted to it.

Well, this got serious a lot faster than I thought. It was really not a serious post, and had nothing actually important to say.

However, #25 and #26 are reasonable concerns. But I won't rule out the possibility that scum could've jumped on it to look town either.

[Roden]

I'm not really sure why I'm getting called defensive for reacting to getting death tunneled on page 2, but somebody saying "my post wasn't serious, your reaction is suspicious" gets a free pass.

[Roden]

???

What? Strange immediately deflected when a slight amount of attention got put on him and instead said you and Nora were suspicious for even bringing it up. I genuinely don't understand how that isn't seen as defensive.

[Roden]

???

What? Strange immediately deflected when a slight amount of attention got put on him and instead said you and Nora were suspicious for even bringing it up. I genuinely don't understand how that isn't seen as defensive.

Them, sorry.

[Roden]

I disagree with your recounting. there was no deflection, they admitted the concerns were valid, and in fact said it was townie of us to jump on it. they only acknowledged afterwards the possibility that it could be opportunistic scum looking for towncred so as to not give the impression they were explicitly townreading myself and Noraa, at least as far as I interpreted it.

You don't think scum ever does this? Furthermore, you don't see "guys it wasn't serious stop looking too much into it" as defensive, but when I say "you're looking too much into a comment" then that makes

me

defensive? No, sorry, it just doesn't work that way. You can't say it counts for one person but not the other.

*your being present in-thread rn and this being the next tab in my catchup are pure coincidence btw

I think you're reading too much into RVS.

VOTE: StrangeMatter

is that why you voted them?

Already answered this. I put the vote to see what would happen.

Nora are you really just going to continue to pick and choose which posts of mine you'll read? Because if you're going to continue to death tunnel me over literally nothing I'd rather just self hammer and sign up for a new game. I already explained and answered everything I could yet you can't even be bothered to respond.

I'm town reading Nora at this point but I honestly wish I wasn't. Pretty sure she's just a townie giving scum a free Day 1.

I'm wondering if the first post here TMIs Nora as town, and the second 7 minutes later is damage control, but this is only conjecture/bookmarking thoughts

What damage control? What TMI? Why are both you and Nora making up narratives in your head and trying to present it as fact here? Especially the "that's what I would do if I were scum" comment Nora made, that is 100% fabrication to prop up a false narrative. I don't care what you think you'd do or what you think is hypothetically going on in my head, because the reality of the situation is that theories and speculation don't matter when the facts are much more straightforward and simple.

If you think I'm scum, put your vote on me and flip me. I'm more than fine with you guys taking heat Day 2 once I flip green. I don't see any other way to stop paranoid SEs from trying to force their bad habits on newbies who are just trying to pick up the game.

[Roden]

VOTE: The Bulge

[Roden]

Roden, I hope you've had a good night's sleep and are in a better mood today. have you had a chance to reread our exchange from last night at all? because youre looking to me like textbook flailing scum. you became very emotional for no reason at all, and were accusing me of things I never even said or did. anything you wanna add/change to what you said?

You just can't help yourself can you? I meant everything I said. Every single post is you or Nora talking down to me. You're being rude and condescending for literally no reason, and no matter how many times I bring it up you just refuse to stop. I didn't even start this argument, Nora just made up a narrative over posts she didn't even read correctly, and even after I've clarified everything I'm still getting attacked over the flimsiest reasons.

I have been cooperative. I have answered every question. I have clarified everything I possibly could. But that

still

doesn't seem to be good enough for you. You're accusing me of flailing over an argument you continue to instigate. Despite everything, neither you or Nora feel like you have to answer my own questions. You discount and discredit and ignore every single comment and observation I make. You paint me as scum when no one else seems to agree with you, and when I vote you all you do is paint me as being emotional to discredit any reads I have on you.

If you think I'm scum, then actually push my wagon instead of just poking at me page after page. Take me to E-1, I'll hammer myself. Because at this point I'm fairly certain you're scum, and you will 100% be in the hot seat Day 2 since you have refused to discuss anything else and everyone will see me flip green.

And no, no one will buy your argument that I was just a townie who played poorly. You town read me and told Nora we were TvT. You still jumped in and continued to fight with me. You will not be able to convince anyone that you had no idea I was town.

So do it. Push my wagon.

[Roden]

Roden, I hope you've had a good night's sleep and are in a better mood today. have you had a chance to reread our exchange from last night at all? because youre looking to me like textbook flailing scum. you became very emotional for no reason at all, and were accusing me of things I never even said or did. anything you wanna add/change to what you said?

You just can't help yourself can you? I meant everything I said.

uh, sure. so youre doubling down on claiming that I said you were being defensive yesterday? can you point that out to me? or that I was presenting my takes as fact when I explicitly said it was only conjecture/getting my notes out. wanna explain that one a little more?

So you're saying you don't think I'm defensive? You're saying you think Nora was completely wrong to claim I was? And you're saying I'm completely justified to think it's unfair to claim one person is defensive but not the other when they both make the exact same claim?

If you're not presenting your takes as fact then why do you keep repeatedly claiming that my actions indicate that I'm scum? Why are you claiming that I'm a textbook case of flailing scum? Are you saying you're just claiming things without really meaning it?

show me where I've been rude to you? serious question. because you were talking to me in 173 and 178 like I'm an idiot, and I cant find a single instance of me being condescending to you (except after you started throwing your little tantrum, because like....lol)

You...literally just admitted you were being condescending to me. Right in this quote.

why are they flimsy? all you've actually done is whine about it. show me why my arguments are weak.

Claiming that I TMI'd Nora as town and then tried to do damage control without even explaining what you meant by that. There was absolutely no basis and even when asked by someone else you refused to explain what you meant.

Brushing off every one of my comments, even when I make a valid point that I shouldn't have to heavily justify a page 2 vote you just claim semantics.

Literally everything Nora tried to claim I did that was scummy, which I thoroughly answered and clarified. This was all ignored and I still got called scummy over an actual false narrative.

The fact that all you can do is make repeated personal attacks against me and say "well this is textbook scum" as if that actually means anything.

i mean if youre scum youre scum, so "good enough for me" is either 1) you show me that you are town or 2) you are dead. so far you've done nothing to push the needle closer to option 1. if youre town and are genuinely trying to fight your own elimination, then you need to rethink your approach, because throwing a pissfit like this is not it.

Yeah, gonna just point out this is looking like typical gaslighting techniques at this point. Constantly discrediting me, insulting me, fabricating my emotional reaction that doesn't actually exist to sell a narrative, and trying to make me doubt my own actions and thoughts are, in your own words, textbook. Town has no need to gaslight anyone. This is legitimately scummy.

what do you mean by this?

Exactly what I said?

which questions have I avoided? I'd be happy to answer anything I've missed.

It's the fact that you are purposely picking and choosing what to react to. You ignored 90% of my last post just to make fun of me and tell me I'm being emotional. Which you then continued to do while purposely trying to poke my buttons.

LMAO you mean besides Noraa and the two people voting you (italiano and illwei) ,ie, literally half the game? like bruh are you even reading the game or do you just keep saying shit?

You mean Nora, who I was referring to here? And Italiano and Illwei, who made an RVS vote and a naked vote respectively?

even if this statement was even a little bit based in reality, uh, so what? nobody should push a read unless someone else shares it? that's not how the game works, come now.

We don't push reads in a read based game now?

Are you really trying to convince me this is in any way true?

my guy, I don't need to "paint you" as emotional

This is all your posts have been recently. I haven't made any personal attacks. I haven't gone on any rants with zero content. I haven't even made an emotional vote. I genuinely scum read you at this point.

what's your read on me then? all I saw was a naked omgus vote.

Let's not pretend my vote on you was the first interaction we had in the game. It's not a naked vote just because it's in a separate post.

??? what's the difference lol

The difference is that you keep making petty comments without actually explaining

why

you scum read me. "Textbook" is not an explanation, insults are not an explanation, and gaslighting is absolutely not an explanation. I'm fairly certain you know I'm not actually scum and that you know the fallout lands on you and Nora if you flip me. Both of you tunneled me way too hard with very little justification, just because you didn't like the way I typed my response. You want to keep saying I'm scum though, yet you also refuse to vote me. Are you afraid of what'll happen when I self-hammer?

yep yep yep if you open my ISO you can see it clear as day that I haven't discussed anything else besides your slot, yessir.

Show me a post where you explain one scum read.

idk what to tell you here. reads change. I had a tonal townread on you which you have now ripped from my hands and wiped your ass with.

You literally scum read me after I answered your question and you didn't like that I disagreed with you.

this is what frustrated, caught scum looks like. if you're town, Roden, please relax, realize nobody is out to get you on a personal level, and realize that if you're being whiny and unpleasant as a defense, all that will get you is more votes. I'm trying to give you a chance to gather yourself and to pay closer attention to the thread when you're reading and responding to posts. if you're gonna be obstinate about that, then you don't get any benefit of the doubt, and I'd happily see you hammered into oblivion.

Just more pointless personal attacks and gaslighting. Yeah I'm certain you're scum at this point, I don't see a townie, especially a SE townie, pulling this kind of shit. You didn't act like this at all in the other newbie game we played. You didn't tunnel and attack people over and over, you just hung back, asked questions, then pressed scum when they made actually scummy posts.

Why do you refuse to vote me if you keep saying I'm scum and want to see me hammered? Why wouldn't you vote out someone you're certain is scum? This is flat out anti-town. It really does just sound like you know I'm not really scum but don't want the attention for pushing my wagon when I flip green. Town doesn't need to be manipulative like that.

gotta run (sorry Noraa), busy night ahead of me. Roden, take a deep breath before responding.

You very obviously keep making posts like this to get a reaction out of me. You over extended and exposed yourself, Bulge.

[Roden]

So I will ask you this @Roden, what do you feel like is different from here than in the game you played? Are there specific posts / quotes you can point out to me?

Bulge never fought people or engaged in ad hominem in that game. I answered his questions the same I did here and we both moved on. He didn't tunnel anyone, and in general he played a much more laid back game especially on Day 1.

I don't think town Bulge gets this invested in an argument that he doesn't think is going anywhere, and especially so when he's convinced someone is scum. Town Bulge is also more vote happy, but he RVS voted Nora just to get her attention, then voted and immediately unvoted Strange with zero explanation. He hasn't bothered to vote for anyone else, not even an apparent textbook scum.

[Roden]

Roden, I hope you've had a good night's sleep and are in a better mood today. have you had a chance to reread our exchange from last night at all?

this doesn't give me good vibes

That's because the post is a contradiction. If you genuinely want somebody to calm down and relax, you don't purposely try to provoke them in the same breath. This is 100% inarguable proof that Bulge isn't genuine here. This is actual emotional manipulation. Town doesn't do this.

[Roden]

Keep in mind that we're on page 13 now and Bulge apparently only has two scum reads and he isn't voting for either of them, and is in fact defending one of them.

[Roden]

Also, now that I know that Nora apparently just plays like this, I feel a lot more confident town locking her and brushing off her death tunnel. She's admitting she can't actually explain her read on me, it's literally just been a gut feeling all this time. Or at least that's all that's left at this point. I thought I actually did something wrong all this time, when in reality I just got caught in the path of one of her random bulldoze rallies.

Nora, if you're so worried about how good Cabd is and you're afraid of his pocketing skills, why aren't you worried that Bulge could be trying to pocket you? You don't think it's weird that he just started sheeping you page 1?

[Roden]

Okay, tomorrow, sorry noraa.

I just neosporined up my arms, belly, and palms, Kittens did NOT want to stay still and felt the need to inform me dangerously.

that's fine. I have exams soon so I'll be back in 3 days. make sure bulge doesn't die today. if he does, I will be very very angry bc he is town town town.

Bulge isn't going to get voted here. Not only do I doubt he'll get elim'd over me, I would literally tell everyone to just vote me first if he somehow gained traction. The two of you caused so much rep damage that I can't ever be taken to a elim-or-lose situation. You especially will tunnel me and throw the game if I ever live that long.

This is the biggest reason I'm so frustrated. My place in the game got ruined on page 2, I can't even replace out because you'll overthink it and unfairly tunnel my replacement as well. You can't even say this is untrue because you are, beyond all odds and reason, still in fact tunneling me. All I can do at this point is expose scum in hindsight, because you're just not going to believe me until you see my flip.

[Roden]

Here. On mobile but here and finally reading up. Greetings from the basement of my house, thanks to mr. Tornado warning.


Noraa we gonna move on or do you want to make another twenty paranoia spiral posts at me first?

VOTE: Cabd
UGHHH I CHECKED THIS GAME AGAIN
but also. When did cabd ever need my permission to do anything when he was town? literally never.
im not replying to anything else because it is of close to zero importance to me right now and I'm studying for exams.

Nora, it is genuinely unfair of you to demand everyone else answer your questions and scum read them if they don't answer them the way you like, but then dismiss anyone else who has questions for you and tell them they aren't important.

[Roden]

Okay, tomorrow, sorry noraa.

I just neosporined up my arms, belly, and palms, Kittens did NOT want to stay still and felt the need to inform me dangerously.

that's fine. I have exams soon so I'll be back in 3 days. make sure bulge doesn't die today. if he does, I will be very very angry bc he is town town town.

Bulge isn't going to get voted here. Not only do I doubt he'll get elim'd over me, I would literally tell everyone to just vote me first if he somehow gained traction. The two of you caused so much rep damage that I can't ever be taken to a elim-or-lose situation. You especially will tunnel me and throw the game if I ever live that long.

This is the biggest reason I'm so frustrated. My place in the game got ruined on page 2, I can't even replace out because you'll overthink it and unfairly tunnel my replacement as well. You can't even say this is untrue because you are, beyond all odds and reason, still in fact tunneling me. All I can do at this point is expose scum in hindsight, because you're just not going to believe me until you see my flip.

This was posted while I was still writing my previous post, so I didn't get a chance to respond to it in that. I don't have much to contribute that hasn't already been said, but I will say that everything you've said since your "place in the game got ruined" has read to me as bitter and vitriolic, like you think the behaviour of Bulge and Noraa is outrageous. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to ask questions of you, and the reason they persisted in questioning you specifically, which you interpret as tunnel visioning, was because your responses, again, seemed bitter and vitriolic. I haven't completely ruled out the idea you're town, and others in this thread have said this could be a tvt scenario, so I don't think that you've been caused so much rep damage that it's irreparable or you can't ever be taken to an elim-or-lose situation. I recognise that the absolute worst thing to ever say to a person that you think is overreacting is "I think you're overreacting", but uh... I think you're overreacting, and have been for (irl) days now.

The questions were never the issue. I got tunneled

despite

answering their questions. Go back and read what happened again. Nora has flat out admitted that my answers didn't actually mean anything in the end and she said she didn't have to reply to them, let alone acknowledge them. She has also admitted that she can't explain her scum read on me and that it is essentially just a gut feeling at this point. That is, by all means, a death tunnel.

This is what I mean when I say I can't be taken to elim-or-lose. Even though she can't justify her scum read on me, she is still tunneling me, yet also isn't voting for me. She also claims that everything I say apparently makes her flare up and causes her to want to scum read me. This is the perfect scenario for any scum who want an easy endgame, all they have to do is take both of us to elim-or-lose and they essentially just auto win. Cabd has already confirmed that Nora will 100% do this.

Do you think scum ever turns down a TvT death tunnel? Do you think they ever NK either of them?

[Roden]

Roden, I hope you've had a good night's sleep and are in a better mood today. have you had a chance to reread our exchange from last night at all?

this doesn't give me good vibes

That's because the post is a contradiction. If you genuinely want somebody to calm down and relax, you don't purposely try to provoke them in the same breath. This is 100% inarguable proof that Bulge isn't genuine here. This is actual emotional manipulation. Town doesn't do this.

Does anyone town reading Bulge want to dispute this?

[Roden]

Nora, don't pretend to be a victim now. I came at you with the same energy you came at me with. Our first interaction was you talking down to me and telling me I could maybe earn your trust if I did whatever you said. That was pretty fucked. That just isn't how you talk to people. If you don't like how our interactions went then maybe you should look at your playstyle.

Furthermore, did you or did you not claim that you couldn't explain your scum read on me? Did you or did you not tell me you didn't have to respond to me, my answers, and my clarifications?

[Roden]

If I was wrong Cabd would not have called you out on your playstyle in his introductory posts. You didn't deny what he said either. You're extremely heated and keep projecting that on me.

[Roden]

And no, I haven't been able to give reads because all of my energy has had to go into defending myself. My stance on the Italiano slot still stands though. Neither player in the slot has managed to contribute anything at all. My hero solve would be Bulge/Cabd. There's definitely at least one scum between all the players who haven't commented on my drama. They have the most to gain to just let the day continue on as is.

[Roden]

Nora what even was the last question that you asked me anyway? All you've done the past few days is complain about me and Cabd. Can you show me a question that I ignored?

[Roden]

And no, tomorrow 100% should not be a reset. Anybody who demands a clean slate and zero consequences from what happened on Day 1 is scummy. This is a universal truth for the game.

[Roden]

I'm paranoid of cabd because he is a truly astonishing mafia player and he says that I'm demanding cabd answer questions when I never even asked cabd a single question.

Where. Literally where did I say this.

[Roden]

I'm here. I can respond on my break.

[Roden]

oh, i wasn't asking for a response to anything particular, i just wanted some thoughts that weren't explicitly *at* someone i guess, but your read on things currently

I don't think Italiano/Cabd is town. I already mentioned it earlier but they have a lot of posts yet no real content. Italiano specifically kept teasing that he had a plan and a read list, but he never actually posted it.

Bimble vs Illwei is an interesting situation. Illwei has made a couple naked votes now and I don't think it's alignment indicative. I voted for them earlier, but I think they're at least trying to play the game, at least compared to Bimble who has an abysmally low post count as well as inconsistent sorting. He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts, or is at the very least way too wishy washy for someone with low content. I think Bimble is the more likely scum between the two and his "OMGUS" vote on Illwei indicates that to me.

GrandpaMo is town for actually trying to scum hunt and ask questions. Seems to generally just be excited to play the game, which isn't alignment indicative but makes me town lean them for that as well.

I've already given my case on Bulge.

Strange is null for me, but they haven't done anything particularly scummy. I need to reread their ISO but they're not pinging me enough to demand an immediate closer look.

Bakslash/piisirrational don't have enough posts but I think Bakslash town slipped by avoiding RVS.

And I have you town locked because of Nora.

[Roden]

oh, i wasn't asking for a response to anything particular, i just wanted some thoughts that weren't explicitly *at* someone i guess, but your read on things currently

I don't think Italiano/Cabd is town. I already mentioned it earlier but they have a lot of posts yet no real content. Italiano specifically kept teasing that he had a plan and a read list, but he never actually posted it.

Bimble vs Illwei is an interesting situation. Illwei has made a couple naked votes now and I don't think it's alignment indicative. I voted for them earlier, but I think they're at least trying to play the game, at least compared to Bimble who has an abysmally low post count as well as inconsistent sorting. He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts, or is at the very least way too wishy washy for someone with low content. I think Bimble is the more likely scum between the two and his "OMGUS" vote on Illwei indicates that to me.

GrandpaMo is town for actually trying to scum hunt and ask questions. Seems to generally just be excited to play the game, which isn't alignment indicative but makes me town lean them for that as well.

I've already given my case on Bulge.

Strange is null for me, but they haven't done anything particularly scummy. I need to reread their ISO but they're not pinging me enough to demand an immediate closer look.

Bakslash/piisirrational don't have enough posts but I think Bakslash town slipped by avoiding RVS.

And I have you town locked because of Nora.

"He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts" Could you elaborate? I think I've been completely consistent. Also, the reason behind my "abysmally low post count" is a) few people have pinged me or attacked me directly, b) I tend to write longer posts where I respond to everything I want to and c) I've already laid out my takes on everybody.

Your reads on people seem to change from post to post. Wishy washy is probably the better descriptor but I also thought your vote on Illwei made no sense. It wasn't even really OMGUS, you just kinda, voted. No scum read, no analysis, not even any real pressure.

I think your low post count has more to it than your given reasons. I don't really see you questioning anyone or pressuring your scum reads. All your posts do is state your mindset and keep your options open on who to vote for. There's no real scum hunting going on and you don't have any game reason not to do so.

Can you tell me why you seem so reluctant to pressure Illwei?

[Roden]

oh, i wasn't asking for a response to anything particular, i just wanted some thoughts that weren't explicitly *at* someone i guess, but your read on things currently

I don't think Italiano/Cabd is town. I already mentioned it earlier but they have a lot of posts yet no real content. Italiano specifically kept teasing that he had a plan and a read list, but he never actually posted it.

Bimble vs Illwei is an interesting situation. Illwei has made a couple naked votes now and I don't think it's alignment indicative. I voted for them earlier, but I think they're at least trying to play the game, at least compared to Bimble who has an abysmally low post count as well as inconsistent sorting. He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts, or is at the very least way too wishy washy for someone with low content. I think Bimble is the more likely scum between the two and his "OMGUS" vote on Illwei indicates that to me.

GrandpaMo is town for actually trying to scum hunt and ask questions. Seems to generally just be excited to play the game, which isn't alignment indicative but makes me town lean them for that as well.

I've already given my case on Bulge.

Strange is null for me, but they haven't done anything particularly scummy. I need to reread their ISO but they're not pinging me enough to demand an immediate closer look.

Bakslash/piisirrational don't have enough posts but I think Bakslash town slipped by avoiding RVS.

And I have you town locked because of Nora.

"He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts" Could you elaborate? I think I've been completely consistent. Also, the reason behind my "abysmally low post count" is a) few people have pinged me or attacked me directly, b) I tend to write longer posts where I respond to everything I want to and c) I've already laid out my takes on everybody.

Your reads on people seem to change from post to post. Wishy washy is probably the better descriptor but I also thought your vote on Illwei made no sense. It wasn't even really OMGUS, you just kinda, voted. No scum read, no analysis, not even any real pressure.

I think your low post count has more to it than your given reasons. I don't really see you questioning anyone or pressuring your scum reads. All your posts do is state your mindset and keep your options open on who to vote for. There's no real scum hunting going on and you don't have any game reason not to do so.

Can you tell me why you seem so reluctant to pressure Illwei?

Let's dive into this:

"Your reads on people seem to change from post to post" Are reads not supposed to change as new information comes in? Like I don't understand this point. My read has changed on Illwei pretty hard, but for justifiable reasons (he's acting bizarrely apathetic). I initally read Noraa as slight scum lean bc she was a little agressive pushing you initially and she seemed to be a tad too defensive in justifying why she wanted the opinion of The Bulge. Her posts since, especially concerning you, have seemed sincere and reasonable, so I shifted to a town lean. For GrandpaMo I just made a point about how he posted a lot which made this thread harder to read, but I never said that makes him scum. From what he's been saying, I think he's town, so I don't think that counts as a shift in position. I'm pretty sure I've been consistent on literally everyone else? So how am I "Wishy washy"? Care to elaborate?

Reads should naturally change, yes, but yours seem to just be following general consensus. Like you're reading the room and then changing your reads accordingly, rather than having any real conviction with what you're saying. It wouldn't be so noticeable if you were more active, but when you only have seven posts (at the time) and you've changed your read on Nora three times, it looks off. You went from believing me vs Nora was TvT to ambiguous TvS. You believed Nora was town, then thought she was scummy, then back to town, just as the game state had already dictated. You believed I was town, then potentially scum, to now "too scummy", just as the game state already dictated again. These are not original thoughts.

Your read on Illwei meanwhile just feels half-hearted and ambiguous. You're claiming your read on Illwei shifted hard, but by your own words, this isn't true.

I think that's a bit quick to throw a vote on me there. I'll go ahead and return the favour.

UNVOTE: Bakslash

VOTE: Illwei

...

Even though I did vote for Illwei, it was mainly because he voted for me. I honestly don't know if I think he's scum, he still reads to me as town, and from his perspective his vote might've just been intentioned to see if it annoyed me and made me say anything suspicious, as opposed to wanting to actually see me hanged. I actually still read Illwei as town.

So what exactly is happening here? Illwei hasn't acted any differently. You apparently now scum read them though according to your most recent post, but there isn't any kind of progression to this conclusion. It just looks like every other one of your reads where you're just taking general consensus into account.

"All your posts do is state your mindset and keep your options open on who to vote for" I mean I'm pretty confident in pushing Illwei to elaborate right now, I think the way they're acting is hella strange. I also think you were acting defensive and bitter, so I said I was leaning scum for you and I still am. I said I was leaning very much town on the Bulge and I still am. I don't think not having strong opinions on everybody or even most people is a justifiable criticism, especially on d1. Like you call it "leaving your options open", I call it "not wanting to rush to conclusions and giving people time to defend themselves".

I don't think it's unreasonable to have more than three solid reads after 16 pages worth of posts to dissect. Your current scum reads are just parroting what everyone else has said.

Also not sure how you can say I'm "bitter and defensive" with a straight face when you yourself got so incredibly defensive and bitter in your post here. Ad hominem is usually a scum tell though so I'm not surprised.

"I think your low post count has more to it than your given reasons. I don't really see you questioning anyone or pressuring your scum reads." I've questioned both you and Illwei multiple times. Like, I don't understand how to respond other than to say that's flatly untrue.

Can you show me where? I keep scanning your ISO and I'm not seeing anything resembling questions or pressure. You even admitted you didn't do any of this in your previously stated reasons so I'm not sure why you've decided to immediately contradict yourself.

"There's no real scum hunting going on and you don't have any game reason not to do so." I'll give you an example of a scum hunt. I think you're being completely unreasonable and am moving you from a scum lean to a scum read. I don't buy you're town, I understand the concept of too scum to be scum, but I just don't think any townie could possibly write a post with as many false statements as this one.

This isn't scum hunting lol. This is OMGUS without the vote. How am I being unreasonable? All I did was ask some questions and make some observations. Can you point out any specific false statements I've made about you? Can you show me an example of you scum hunting anyone at all?

[Roden]

So I will ask you this @Roden, what do you feel like is different from here than in the game you played? Are there specific posts / quotes you can point out to me?

Bulge never fought people or engaged in ad hominem in that game. I answered his questions the same I did here and we both moved on. He didn't tunnel anyone, and in general he played a much more laid back game especially on Day 1.

I don't think town Bulge gets this invested in an argument that he doesn't think is going anywhere, and especially so when he's convinced someone is scum. Town Bulge is also more vote happy, but he RVS voted Nora just to get her attention, then voted and immediately unvoted Strange with zero explanation. He hasn't bothered to vote for anyone else, not even an apparent textbook scum.

PSA - this is the wrong way to use meta. "I don't think town Bulge _____" is a wildly bold statement to make after playing 1 game with me.

I'm not using meta. Mo asked for a direct comparison to a previous game, so my answer is based off of that.

I really hope this isn't the only thing you respond to.

[Roden]

OK, let's dive into this long screed of nonsense:

My first read on Nora was "I'm ever so slightly suspicious of Nora", in post 195. My next take on her was in post 369, where I said "I'm leaning town on Nora/Ydresse". That's changing that read once: from SL to TL. Not three times. You lied.

Not according to post 83, where you specifically give a stance against Nora's reasoning and claim she was too aggressive without a lot of evidence. You also claim that our argument was a "two-way street", implying that you believed our argument was just a misunderstanding. This makes no sense to say if you think either of us are scum.

My take on You v Noraa was saying "I don't buy Noraa vs Roden is tvt" in Post 323, specifically referring to you as the scum. At no point before then did I ever say I bought that Noraa vs you was tvt. Again, you lied.

Refer to the above.

I don't understand how my reads on Illwei are

"ambiguous and halfhearted"

. I voted against Illwei because I wanted to prod him to explain why he voted for me with so little evidence. He then didn't explain that, or respond to any of the other questions I asked of him. I find that really suspicious, I feel like any townie would want to respond to questioning.

"You're claiming your read on Illwei shifted hard, but by your own words, this isn't true."

Could you like, show me where my own words disproved me? Instead of just saying that?

You specifically say in two different posts that you town read them, I quoted one of them so idk how you're confused here. 323 and 327 show this. Can you show me a post before 365 where you claim otherwise? Because you scum reading Illwei now literally doesn't matter if you think that counts, as that now seems to be in reaction to me pointing it out in 365 that you were wishy washy with your reads at the time.

How can you say he hasn't acted differently? Are we in the same game? He's spent the past hundred or so posts refusing to answer questions and reacting to everything with apathy. My scum read against him is based on the fact he still hasn't explained his vote against me.

Hundred or so posts? They've only got 34. This behavior has been pretty consistent with their past posts anyway, can you show me a massive change somewhere?

Have you considered the possibility that if things are general consensus it's probably for good reason? Like I don't understand, would you trust me more if I was claiming The Bulge and GrandpaMo and Noraa are all scum?? Also, to be completely honest, most people seem to be reading you as just an aggravated townie, I think I'm in the minority in reading you as scum, so if you're looking for a deviation from the general consensus, there ya go.

You're missing the point. You're the last to read but the first to want to take credit. The problem isn't that your reads align with general consensus, but that they only ever come out

after

everyone else has said their piece. The most blatant example of this is that you voted for someone you thought was town (Illwei), and didn't actually scum read them until other people began to do so. This is quite literally what chronologically happened.

What is it with people on the internet and not knowing what an ad hominem is. Ad hominem is a position against a person based on anything other than the susbstance of the argument itself. In real political or logical debate, ad hominems are generally a bad thing. In mafia, people do them constantly, because taking people's behaviour into account, as opposed to the logic behind their arguments, is very much important to determining if somebody is scum.

This is just flat out wrong. Ad hominem is an argument or reaction directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. Such as your random insults and attacks against my character.

Again, with the idea that my own words contradict me without providing the words that contradict me. But sure, I'll answer your question. I don't believe a statement needs a question mark in order to be considered a question, I think it just has to warrant a response. For example, if I said "Roden, why are you being unreasonable?", it would prompt the same response as "Roden, I think you're being unreasonable". Post 324 is a perfect example of this. It's not framed as questioning, but that's what it is, as you respond to it and substantiate your argument.

Questions don't need to be actual questions now huh.

To give specific examples:

a) In Post 325 I voted against Illwei to try and get him to substantiate his vote against me. Then, in Post 369, I questioned him on what he said in Post 363, and pointed out he still hasn't explained why he voted for me, which I initially asked in Post 325. He responded to GrandpaMo's questioning in Post 370, and I found his response ridiculous so I questioned him again on it. He has not responded.

Yes, and you town read them for this.

b) In Post 324 I pointed out why I think you're being unreasonable, invoking a response. You responded. Then in Post 369, I asked you to elaborate on your seemingly nonsense statements about me being contradictory. You responded in a long post, full of innacuracies. I responded in a long post, asking you a bunch more questions. You responded, now I'm responding again, asking you more questions.

I think this easily constitutes "questioning or pressuring my scum reads". In what way does it not? I think I've taken time to resopnd to and ask plenty of you and Illwei.

I literally had to push you to do any of this. Again, it doesn't count if you only do it

after

I point it out.

I've just wasted half an hour of my life responding to your lies. I'm becoming sympathetic to Noraa's position of just voting you out regardless of your alignment, you're too annoying to work with and I find it frustrating responding to an argument against me that's just based on nonsense.

If you're legitimately scum hunting, wouldn't this be exactly what you wanted? Why are you annoyed by having to play the game?

[Roden]

You also just didn't even bother responding to everything. It's convenient that you ignored everything that you know you can't defend yourself against.

[Roden]

I've just wasted half an hour of my life responding to your lies. I'm becoming sympathetic to Noraa's position of just voting you out regardless of your alignment, you're too annoying to work with and I find it frustrating responding to an argument against me that's just based on nonsense.

god I relate to this whole post so hard. why I didn't respond to 239. bimble's recent string of posts are very very townie.

There's actually no point to me being in this game if my scum reads are just going to refuse to respond to me but continue to keep insulting me and discrediting me. I'm glad you didn't act like this in my first game, you would've single-handedly turned me off from this site. I don't think you should sign up for newbie games if this how you're gonna treat people.

Formally requesting to replace out.

[Roden]

Bulge literally ended Day 3 saying Ydrasse was obvscum and post-humously threw the game by building a case against her even though he thought it was Illwei anyway. Bulge's elim wasn't even her fault since Illwei obviously wasn't getting elim'd and Ydrasse got guilted into not self-hammering even though that was the optimal play, since voting Bulge was the only alternative and obviously that wasn't a good decision. The Nora slot was definitely obvtown though, and the fact that everyone seemed to forget this is what ultimately cost town the game.