micro 1017 is over party

[Retti]

VOTE: Toogeloo

[Retti]

Hello potion seller. I am going into battle, and I want your strongest potions.

[Retti]

Hello potion seller. I am going into battle, and I want your strongest potions.

What kind of ingredients do you prefer?

Potion seller. I tell you I'm going into battle, and I want only your strongest potions.

[Retti]

i was gonna meme and vote for myself, but then tris's vote came up in pedits so i decided against it because y-1 on page one scary. then i thought how mena is probably one of the only people insane enough to actually slam the hammer down on page one and he's already on wagon and it would be funny if i meme-voted myself so what's the worst that could happen

and *then* i remembered scum!bugspray explicitly loves quickhammering and they're playing so yeah not gonna do that

You can do it, I promise I won't let anything bad happen...pinky swear.

[Retti]

How funny would it be if I

[Retti]

you pinky promised

That was just so the comedy hammer would have been even funnier

[Retti]

I suppose skitter can be town if we're getting to the dreary business of actually playing mafia

[Retti]

skitter's explanation of her townpings on me gives me some paranoia that i am being white knighted / pocketed here

but i will not act upon it yet as it is way too early and my skitter reads are usually ass-backwards

why do you find her town? @retti obviously

Breaking away from early game silliness into serious analysis tends to come more often from town, it's an awkward transition for scum to make who are usually more content to fool around, and she did it in a natural enough manner.

[Retti]

VOTE: pob long

[Retti]

No one answer that TIA

[Retti]

why is everyone pocketing me smfh

VOTE: pob long

retti, do you have any experience / knowledge of skitter?

pedit: townie pings on retti

Maybe, maybe not. But for the sake of the game, let's treat it as if the answer were "No" because people going on about meta while under the guise of an alt is fucking annoying.

[Retti]

Meh

VOTE: Toogeloo

[Retti]

pob, if you're serious about not knowing what a potion does, send a PM to the mod instead of asking us

[Retti]

VOTE: skitter
What if we massclaim?

1. Why the vote?
2. Why would you want that?

[Retti]

I think dats' reaction was kinda townie, dislike the bugspray vote

UNVOTE:

Specifically what I didn't like about this post was skitter saying she disliked the bugspray vote. To me the bugspray vote seemed like obvious RVS. Coupled with that, Datisis reaction and just the whole conversation in general seemed like RVS. Your post looks like an excuse to get early fake "helpful".

The flavor and potions of this game seem like something that could possibly be breakable if we al knew what each other was doing.

I assure you the setup would never pass review if it could be broken by a day 1 mass claim.

I...greatly disagree on that skitter read, but don't particularly want to argue it with you right now.

[Retti]

have you considered that he is... lying about having a potion that does nothing?

I don't think he plays it that way in the opening stages of the game. Way he opened pinged but the way he claimed it doesn't come from scum, I don't think

[Retti]

Hmmm

VOTE: tʃɹɪs

[Retti]

have you considered that he is... lying about having a potion that does nothing?

I don't think he plays it that way in the opening stages of the game. Way he opened pinged but the way he claimed it doesn't come from scum, I don't think

why did you answer a question that was not aimed at you?

and also what since 44 to now made you wanna change your vote?

The question was general enough that I didn't expect you'd take offense to my butting in. Was it that important that you get the answer from Reason? Our reasoning (no pun intended) is similar enough.

I moved back to Toog because I decided pob was towny and had a Mild Gut Ping from early on, but after pondering for a moment I reconsidered, and decided I liked voting tʃɹɪs more.

[Retti]

How funny would it be if I

you pinky promised

pedit: thank you skitter i can now stop refreshing the game every 2 minutes

what about my reaction did you find townie?

@dats this felt like you have a relationship to one another

~Rhyme

The relationship is I made a joke about pinky promising not hammer him on page 1 then intimated I was going to do it anyway

If I felt like bullshitting I'd claim it was some epic reaction test but in truth I was just screwing around

[Retti]

The flavor and potions of this game seem like something that could possibly be breakable if we al knew what each other was doing.

This isn't the towny response that I was hoping for, for the record.

-Reason

This...is...the towny response I...wasn't...hoping...for?

But in all seriousness, what were you hoping for, (if you don't mind saying)?

have you considered that he is... lying about having a potion that does nothing?

I don't see the reason to do that. If they're scum who doesn't have a nothing-potion, then how would they know they even exist? It would look weird to be the only one claiming one of those.

-Reason

I could devil's advocate this argument right now but still think pob is more likely town than not so I won't do that

[Retti]

decided I liked voting tʃɹɪs more.

y

~Rhyme

Because of the most solid reasons for voting someone on page 3 of a mafia game: Gut.

[Retti]

ughhh, my head is full of fuzz. i'll be back later

this is a relatively alignemnt indicative post (as in this gives information about tris's alignment relative to other slots) scum wouldn't be like "be back later" if a gamestate was evolving that doesn't favor them and i think overall this is more likely to come from town

This makes no sense

[Retti]

Gut

and so I repeat: y

~Rhyme

Ugh you're going to be annoying about this aren't you

[Retti]

also retti, do you have any form of pronoun preference?

~Rhyme

he/him is fine

[Retti]

I don't mind gut reads but there is still ~something~ about the posts that pinged you in a gut sense, and I want to know what that is

~Rhyme

pedit: gotcha, thanks

I don't particularly

like

explaining my early game gut reads, at least not right away. But since you asked so nicely, I guess I'll oblige: the 3 posts to that point felt like they were following along and merely going with the flow of what was happening at the time, joining the wagon on datisi, disagreeing with my skitter read, adding to the townreads on datisi, it was all adding to existing lines of conversation rather than providing any particularly compelling thought. And I

could

see that being the way scum plays the early game, mostly trying to blend in, talking just to talk but not providing momentum themselves.

[Retti]

The question was general enough that I didn't expect you'd take offense to my butting in. Was it that important that you get the answer from Reason? Our reasoning (no pun intended) is similar enough.

I moved back to Toog because I decided pob was towny and had a Mild Gut Ping from early on,

but after pondering for a moment I reconsidered

, and decided I liked voting tʃɹɪs more.

i don't know. i don't know what i'm looking for until i see it. that's why i don't like someone cutting my q's to someone short like that bc maybe the og response would've been something to inspire me

can you talk about the bolded part?

I...looked back at his posts, thought about them, decided my vote was meh and that I should find someone else, and my eye fell on tris after looking at other people briefly?

I'm not sure what you're looking for here?

[Retti]

Why's that

[Retti]

you seem like you'd make a good pocket

~Rhyme

Unfortunately for you I am too small and things fall out of me too easily

The question was general enough that I didn't expect you'd take offense to my butting in. Was it that important that you get the answer from Reason? Our reasoning (no pun intended) is similar enough.

I moved back to Toog because I decided pob was towny and had a Mild Gut Ping from early on,

but after pondering for a moment I reconsidered

, and decided I liked voting tʃɹɪs more.

i don't know. i don't know what i'm looking for until i see it. that's why i don't like someone cutting my q's to someone short like that bc maybe the og response would've been something to inspire me

can you talk about the bolded part?

I...looked back at his posts, thought about them, decided my vote was meh and that I should find someone else, and my eye fell on tris after looking at other people briefly?

I'm not sure what you're looking for here?

idk. i saw there was only one post from either of them (i think and atp i'm too lazy to go back and check) so i wanted to see if it was something about that post, and if not, what was it or like what was your thought process there because i did not get it

The one post from Toog was maybe a little bit of it, it made me waffle

[Retti]

And I could see that being the way scum plays the early game, mostly trying to blend in, talking just to talk but not providing momentum themselves.

How's that different from what I've done that made you interested changing from me to them?

Excuse me if I feel your gut reason seems weak considering you had a vote on me as a sheep for a town read, and I would argue that I too qualify as a similar reason your gut made you swap elsewhere. I'd think you'd be interested in applying more pressure on me.

Your posts were RVS and role stuff, not trying to fit in with the conversation

per se

. It's a different quality between you two. You feel a bit more independent of other people in that you've chimed in with regard to certain mechanical things, but the way you've spoken doesn't feel awkward. Initially I thought you asking about ingredients was suspect according to a paranoid theory I had, but then I decided I didn't like the idea. (also, since then, I buy your confusion about the scum's potion mechanics, but that obviously didn't factor into me changing my vote).

That still doesn't really convey the nuance of it I don't think but hopefully it's somewhat understandable

[Retti]

but I kinda doubt that trjis and bugs are scum together

Agreed

[Retti]

I think my top 3 should not be executed today.

I didn't find their reason for changing their vote off of me to be compelling since I was guilty of similar play. My reads are fluid however, and it should be noted that I have no read basis for spots 4-6 since there isn't enough to work with as of now.

You weren't particularly similar, in my perception. Her posts pinged more. But regardless: why is me moving my vote from you to her suspect?

[Retti]

i unironically have some sr on datisi

Okay, why?

[Retti]

Naked votes, while generally terrible for information, are still generally NAI. In fact I'd argue, scum are more likely to make up a be excuse to apply a vote to avoid naked voting.

Looking at my own meta that actualy makes sense. Townpoints to toog for this.

Why does he get townpoints for a purely theory based statement?

Why did you dislike bugspray's naked voting if it's something you do yourself?

[Retti]

Okay, but why did you dislike bugspray's naked voting?

Why didn't the thought occur to you if it's something you do yourself?

[Retti]

VOTE: T3

[Retti]

Felt like that was an attempt to join in on the suspicion on bugspray but the thought process here does not feel believable or organic.

[Retti]

But in all seriousness, what were you hoping for, (if you don't mind saying)?

Uh, well yeah I can say, since I feel like this is fine to get out in the open.

I myself was having a similar idea of massclaiming, for two reasons: (1) it makes sure that no info is lost since people's powers don't flip, and (2) most powers are one-shot so the power is distributed and scum can't take out all our power by focusing on a few PR's.

But, Mena ended up convincing me that a D2 massclaim is better, since schadd surely included a contingency for a massclaim, and since the potions owned by the person killed N1 hardly matter anyway. Saving massclaim until D2 allows investigatives to claim their info without fear of interference.

But anyway, if T3 had echoed any of these thoughts, it would have shown be was having similar concerns to me with respect to the unhelpful flips. Alas, it was just "herp derp I wonder if the setup is breakable"

-Reason

Agree the answer from T3 was underwhelming. Understand the concern about the flips being unhelpful, but don't know that we need to full claim? Can just have everyone claim action results from the night prior. Don't necessarily need to reveal what other potions people may or may not have left.

I think I like that this is a discussion you're having, anyway.

[Retti]

I was waiting for bugspray to do...

something

before passing judgment of any sort, but 223 is fairly convincing, the play here is night and day compared to the linked game and does seem much more similar to the scumgames he references.

they did provide some reasoning with their votes/actions, but it was really shallow, and basically night and day to the towngame i linked earlier.

Okay, I swear I wrote the above before reading you write this >_>

Felt like that was an attempt to join in on the suspicion on bugspray but the thought process here does not feel believable or organic.

how did you get here? like, t3 tried to add to suspicion on bugs, but as soon as someone said that they disagree with t3, he just... agrees and calls that person townie?

That...was what I had a problem with? Like, the moment Toogeloo contradicted him he just turned around and agreed with him instead, but the problem is the thought process for the original read didn't feel especially believable. Town!t3 has no problem with naked voting and underexplained reads so him voting someone for exhibiting that behavior doesn't really add up. Turning around and changing his mind while calling toog town felt a bit more like a maneuver to cover his ass on a read that wasn't really going to be defensible.


But this was with the consideration that bugspray might just be LHF last night, and I'm feeling less confident in that conclusion already, sooo....

[Retti]

Felt like that was an attempt to join in on the suspicion on bugspray but the thought process here does not feel believable or organic.

First, the only suspicious (I might have forgot something) on bugspray was skitter, who I scumread for suspecting bugspray. Second, when Tog disagreed with me I agreed with him and my scumread on bugspray vanished.

i was/am also scumreading bugs though i'm not sure if my post about that came before or after

what do you think about my reasoning for scumreading them? also do you like. even *have* any reads.

Yes, I have reads. I think your reasons for scumread bugspray make sense.

But...you...agreed with what toogeloo said earlier?

[Retti]

Oof.

I'm making an effort to play against my town playstyle this game lol

Mmm, does scum ever admit they're...trying...to play like scum? I would guess probably not, I would expect some sort of excuse but not couched in this exact reasoning.

UNVOTE:

[Retti]

Feeling very good about Datisi being town, the persistence in poking at RaR for their reasoning in 225 (as well as toogeloo in 231) where I would expect scum would be more inclined to just let the read on them sit as is and accept the trust, overall feel his approach and the questions he's been asking have been Good.

[Retti]

Consider my vote spiritually on bugspray right now, but I don't want to E-1 this early in the day

[Retti]

i think i'm sorta putting skitter as ~paranoid but most likely town~ and leaving her there for an amount of time until i decide otherwise. there is a small voice in the back of my head that skitt's approach was slightly off, mostly due to the fact that she admits to it in 252 as it kinda gives me the vibe of "yeah, it was off" scum admitting their own play is off. *however* (1) i did not notice any scum-agenda-driving posts from skitter that i remember seeing once when she was scum (though this is obviously with a grain of salt bc i do not trust myself at all to consistently read scum!skitt correctly) and her reads/reasnings outside of the above have all felt Fine and Reasonable. (2) and also i think in every town game we've had so far, i've consistently had the uneasy-gut "what if this is scum!skitter" feeling, and at this point i'm wondering if that feeling should be taken as a sign that skitt is town, considering i did not have it in most (if not all, don't remember atm) of her scumgames

I'm feeling cautiously optimistic that this game might just be...

easy

, which I know is a foolish thing to conclude not even 24 hours into day 1, but I feel reasonably good about the most active people so far, the way you've sort of danced around each other feels like the routine players with a degree of history between each other go through when they both roll town. This could be one of those games where town has all the energy early and scum just aren't able to keep up at all. My wild confidence could eventually be swallowed by the Pit of Paranoia and Despair, but for now? I'm feeling it.

[Retti]

/shrug, to me it felt like you were suspicious of t3 because he was trying to pile on the suspicion on bugspray, but deciding against it at the first sign of a struggle defeats the whole point of "piling on suspicion" - so i didn't get how you came to that conclusion when to me it seemed like, if t3 had really been trying to do that, he was doing it in the most counterproductive way possible. but i think your explanation makes sense - i don't have much (or any, really) exp with t3 so if that's what you were focused on, i get it now

It was a lot easier for me to read him when I was scum when I could just write him off and go "oh yeah, whatever, maybe town" and let other people suspect him. Now it's like, I find myself very confused by a lot of what he says and it leaves me scratching my head? Anyway, I don't have a scum!T3 model in my head, but at the time it just felt like he was retreating from a read he realized wasn't tenable. But on further reflection I can see him reacting that way in a T3!town world where he realizes his read wasn't good. Despite a lot of his progressions so far being strange and incomprehensible to me I figure him admitting he's trying to play like his scum game is probably townie.

[Retti]

I'm moving skitter up my list. Willing to move Retti up a little as well.

1. Why are you moving skitter up?
2. Why did you have a problem with me voting tris instead of you?

[Retti]

tris what are your reads at this point
and why do you think i would be having doubts on bugspray?

up to the post i just quoted,
datisi, retti, rhyme and reason i feel pretty good about being town.
i'm feeling like you're town as well, but i'm not confident
i might have a reason to townread t3 that i'll think more about once i've caught up.
i'll have to revisit my thoughts on pob long.
toogeloo. idk
sure, bugspray can be mafia;

i was thinking you would wonder why scum!bugspray would be this blatantly ignoring people, but if the meta fits,,

Can you..give a little more words on why you think these? That didn't exactly come through in the stuff you chose to quote and respond to.

[Retti]

I don't find that to be particularly compelling reasoning.

[Retti]

I don't find that to be particularly compelling reasoning.

why is skitter town

Beyond her moving to proactively sorting early, her hesitant wariness toward Rhyme felt like the how someone acts when they are suspicious of another player they have a degree of familiarity with, it was believable to me. I also feel like we've had a confluence of ideas a few times like in our reaction to pob long, in a more holistic view she just feels Fine? I dunno, the argument of "not townie enough" isn't really how I'd be looking at things at all on day 1.

tris, if I can level with you, your whole catchup felt like what I've done as scum where I grab a bunch of posts and just vomit out something in reply to look like I am Being Productive and Doing Things (I got called out on this pretty hard last time and had to go into defensive claws out mode in response). It just felt like, Are these the posts a town player chooses to comment on as they are reading the game? And I'm skeptical on that end. Additionally your reads were pretty consensusy and uncontroversial, and your whole turn on skitter here feels like it's motivated by her pointing that out and expressing suspicion toward you more than anything else.

[Retti]

differentiate this from scum dancing around a player who they have a degree of familiarity with. what things here are specifically what you're describing that wouldn't also be scum?

In general I find people tend to be more suspicious of those they're familiar with when they roll town, at least initially, and that manifests as a sort of paranoia toward those they know. Whereas when you roll scum with someone you know in the game, you're going to be more cautious, your concern is about getting caught, the engagement tends to be a bit more halting and awkward. Faking a believable sort of paranoia is a hard thing to do. I'm slightly contrasting this with my own experiences, where I just awkwardly townread my friend and then mostly shadowed his reads. While I'm not skitter and can't say for sure how she'd do things, it felt believable in the way she went about it.
(this is true only for people who aren't meta-circlejerkers who want to take the side of their friends no matter what)

[Retti]

tris, if I can level with you, your whole catchup felt like what I've done as scum where I grab a bunch of posts and just vomit out something in reply to look like I am Being Productive and Doing Things (I got called out on this pretty hard last time and had to go into defensive claws out mode in response). It just felt like, Are these the posts a town player chooses to comment on as they are reading the game? And I'm skeptical on that end. Additionally your reads were pretty consensusy and uncontroversial, and your whole turn on skitter here feels like it's motivated by her pointing that out and expressing suspicion toward you more than anything else.

@skitter; how do you think this fits with how i tend to be as scum or town?

...why are you asking her that?

[Retti]

Uhm

Well that's something to check into

[Retti]

You didn't

have

to spoil the ruse, you know

[Retti]

I really would have liked a claim actually

[Retti]

skitter probably is town actually

...why

[Retti]

I was going to actually catch up but was waiting to see how bugspray would react, but screw it, save it for later I guess, I'll wait and see what they flip

[Retti]

.............................

[Retti]

Datisi has Increased Charisma for this day phase; any player who disagrees with a statement he makes will take 1 HP of damage once the day is over. to "disagree" in this case is to speak in opposition to a claim that Datisi has made, while obviously addressing the statement to them (determined at mod discretion). each player may take one damage at most.

Uhh...okay then

[Retti]

VOTE: tʃɹɪs

While I probably would have ended up voting bugspray anyway, I did not like the timing of the hammer or her posts afterward

[Retti]

Also, this is somewhat random, but did anyone happen to get told they got a hangover from drinking their potion?

[Retti]

Also, this is somewhat random, but did anyone happen to get told they got a hangover from drinking their potion?

huh. i had a potion that involved me becoming drunk, but i did not get a hangover.

I ask because one of my potions says it'll make someone with a hangover feel better and I assumed there was probably some mechanic involving that, but I couldn't get an explanation on what being hung over actually does

Hrm

[Retti]

without thinking much, i'm inclined to think that skitter is scum,

that actually makes me think you're town

What is this I don't even

[Retti]

tris, was the potion you used the one that makes you drunk or was it another? For clarification.

VOTE: T3

[Retti]

i can't change my mind based on something i see?

It's just weird. Less scummy weird and more WTF

tris, was the potion you used the one that makes you drunk or was it another? For clarification.

VOTE: T3

i got drunk

Okay.

[Retti]

I assume there was maybe meant to be some mechanical interaction of some sort then b/c otherwise my potion makes no sense

[Retti]

Really

[Retti]

Is that solely based on the potion claim?

[Retti]

Because she quoted a past game with a red herring scum role and voted me, and I don't know what else it would be, even if she said she didn't townread me as much on day 1 before that it wasn't enough to vote me, so...

[Retti]

Skitter, why the vote on me from the previous page? I assume you don't think I am null-town anymore. Then you voted for someone I had as one of my scum reads.

Give me your thought progression, por favor

You never actually answered 304 from me and I'd like to get a reply.

[Retti]

without thinking much, i'm inclined to think that skitter is scum,

that actually makes me think you're town

What is this I don't even

i would like your thoughts on what made skitt town there

Er, is this directed at me? My read on skitter didn't have anything to do with the tris posts (obviously), I thought she was town for other reasons. I'll get into it later.

tris, was the potion you used the one that makes you drunk or was it another? For clarification.

VOTE: T3

could you Talk about your t3 vote here

Was a first-impulse vote to move to the person I thought was least towny after I thought tris might be town for mechanical stuff. I feel like his opinions have been too weathervaney, mostly the stuff he's saying is just catching up and repeating things other people have said, I know it was after my vote but I feel like 489 is a good example of this, like he's just repeating the reads tris and skitter gave on each other to blend in? I'm not getting a feeling of a ~genuine thought process~ anywhere from him. He had the one "emulating my scumgame post" which I liked but it's not impossible to fake and I don't think I can shield him over that when he's lacking in solving.

I, uh, appreciate you wording these questions in a neutral fashion.

shitty vca - usually i would say that the ~general waffling, approval, no real disagreement~ around the bugs wagon implies it's likely scum was off it, but considering day 1 was so short in time, i don't think it's necessarily that way (since i feel it's also extremely plausible that town was genuinely feeling uncomfortable with ending the day so fast) so like i am still shit at vca, nothing to see here.

I put basically no stock in on/off wagon in a 9p game, seem all-town day 1 wagons entirely by chance. If you want to analyze the votes look at what people actually said and their reasoning for doing so.

[Retti]

Toog voting Datisi as an entrance was actually off to me - even as a joke, I feel like town would be more cautious about taking damage? Whereas scum would have less reason to fear taking more damage if they're the ones doing it.

[Retti]

@retti the vote had nothing to do with the potion thing
It was more an offshoot of me thinking i dont have as strong a reason to townread you and since you had been around was hoping it would spark an interesting convo that would help me read you better
But then i fell asleep

And waking up honestly i'm more interested in toog so gonna switch back VOTE: toog

It was an impulsive 'oh maybe this will lead to an interesting convo' thing more than anything else

Probably just as well because I felt like going to sleep around then, too. Regardless, I'm here now, although I'm still catching up, if you want to have a conversation, just ask me something?

[Retti]

You never actually answered 304 from me and I'd like to get a reply.

1. I was willing to give skitter a bit of a pass for activity's sake. I was not expecting the day to be over by the time I came back, and was just trying to pressure the lower activity slots into doing more.
2. I just found it either weird or insulting that you weren't noticing me despite voting me.

You moved her up to being a townread for being active? And, I mean, I did

notice

you but that was why I felt comfortable moving my vote to a different read. I'm still not really understand why you found that suspect from me.

Retti is now a town read too.

Erm, why?

[Retti]

Okay so with these claims I feel like I should just out this now: last night I used a healing potion on skitter that gives 1 HP to the target, and I think that's probably why there was no NK?

[Retti]

I'm a little bit leery of the damage claims, but they seem to be clearly meant to interact with Datisi's charisma potion in some way? Like, I don't see a world where town only has a single means of dealing damage or whatever

[Retti]

yeah no i agree, i was just wondering bc i skimmed your iso, and the last you had talked about t3 was in a positive light. did you say you have exp with him? ok ctrl+f'ing "t3" in your iso, you did. how does this game compare to the t3 you were talking about in 254?

Well, although I had felt good about that one post I mainly just felt I had the fewest reasons to townread him here. I was scum that game so I wasn't

really

paying attention to his posts, but it was like, underexplained reads out of nowhere but I could kind of see where he was coming from if I thought about it for a second? And then I just went "oh ignore him and maybe misyeet him later" and then he guiltied both my partners as tracker because I'm terrible at mechanics

but ANYWAY his play here is Different, but admitted he's trying to play different, so that's not meaningful in and of itself. Him explaining his reads is fine, and honestly preferable to like...refusing to do anything. but the way he's taken these stances doesn't feel believable in the way they have developed and I feel like he's mostly just been following other people with what he's done.

interestingly enough, i felt the opposite way. i was kinda guessing myself that my charisma wouldn't be the only damage dealer in town (i mean i *guess* it is possible because schadd game, in which case thanks schadd i love it), so i wouldn't be surprised if scum would be able to guess that (or straight out have info on that). and it seems... unnecessary to try to get damage on yourself, especially second time now? makes you a prime vig target, especially if the town wants to limit the amount of people who take damage.

Well Thats Your Opinion And I Respect That

Go back to my day 1 read lists Retti. Point out where I called anyone town or scum.

I...what? What are you trying to say? Like I think the meaning of 179 is clear, even if you didn't label that list, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here unless you're just engaging in pedantry

[Retti]

I just asked you for calrification, I'm not sure why you're being so prickly

[Retti]

If dats weren't in this game i would guess you were dats

It's the green hat, probably

[Retti]

Sorry for being absent yesterday

skitter, I get why you're skeptical of Toogeloo's claim of a damaging potion here and I find the way he's been responding to me to be frustrating, but I kind of feel like we just leave him be here and leash him to shoot who we want? I guess there's the fear if he's scum that he just goes and shoots someone else instead but if that happens we just yeet him on day 3 regardless? So that's not a huge concern for me.


Right now I kind of want to just shrug-vote T3 or pob long, given that their claims are the least accountable of anyone and I am lacking in reasons to townread either. With pob, it's like, he's done nothing meaningful and while at first I thought the early potions stuff was townie but as time has gone on I'm feeling more and more like this could all be part of his...schtick? And that as a gimmick alt he could be easily playing into that to make himself look more...naive, I guess, than he really is. And for T3, it's like, he started with no potions, really? I had to check the rules to see if there was anything about that and there's no, so I guess it's possible, but then...why does he want a mass claim day 1 if he has no potions? Does a VT really ask about a mass claim there? If I had actually gotten a role PM with no potions I would assume that was, like, the standard VT PM and I sure as shit wouldn't be trying to out power roles on day 1.


There's a paranoid world where I'm being deep pocketed by RaR but I wouldn't really be interested in considering that unless my lesser reads all end up flipping town and I have to replace my green cap with a tinfoil one

[Retti]

Hi

I

fell behind on this game

And every time I've thought about it it has been like ughhhhhhhhhh and I didn't want to put in the work of catching up

But I will, I just don't have the time to do so tonight


So this is me shamelessly prodging until I can post more tomorrow

[Retti]

I do feel better abt the damage plan if toog holsters if we flip greeni would vastly prefer him and am dubious that t3's willingness to flip here comes from scum
If we flip t3/pob today i want toog tomorrow

Also my retti read sort of evaporates when he stops posting

Oh good at least

someone

in this game acknowledges my existence in some form

Yeah it just became increasingly hard for me feel connected to the discussion for a bit and no one seemed to acknowledge what I'd said to even argue against it


But I'll say that while I still feel like the way t3 acted d1 relative to his claim doesn't make a ton of sense and his stances baffle me, him offering to just lay himself on the train tracks and be eliminated is

probably

townie?

UNVOTE:

I'm not entirely sure why we're just shuffling toward a toog vote either

tʃɹɪs - check if someone is damaged, used on Datisi, he was not (I think? this wasn't made explicit but I assume that's what her second post of the day means)
pob long - gulp potion, no effect
T3 - no potions
Rhyme and Reason - damaged tris
skitter30 - fruit vendor potion to R&R
Datisi - charisma potion
Toogeloo - no action
Retti - restored 1 HP to skitter

Fully confirmed actions: skitter30, Datisi
Confirmable in the future: Rhyme and Reason
Can be corroborated but not confirmed: tris, Retti
Unconfirmable: pob long, T3, Toogeloo

Skitter, if you're wondering what scum would claim if they didn't want to claim an attack, those bottom two rows are your answer.

-Reason

This is what I was trying to get at earlier w/r/t night actions, scum are going to claim something that can't be verified and so those things are inherently suspect to me

[Retti]

i should probably just claim to ensure that toog doesn't kill me if town. pub long can confirm that i am town.

ya

why i was confused about some stuff and asking you about using 2 potions because you said you knew about no body hurting Datsi but i also got told by schladd your town and it did'nt look like my gulp potion told me that.

Wait what

[Retti]

Okay tris is

probably

a legitimate town power role because otherwise the setup doesn't make sense but the reveal that she could use more than one potion sort of destroys the assumption that a verifiable potion action = town

[Retti]

Okay yeah, just wanted to make sure. We have a gulp potion as well, so pob is very likely telling the truth about that.

-Reason

oh ok then
they're probably town then
don't really want to flip them honestly

I feel like this is probably a faulty assumption? The OP says scum have

some

kind of factional information, and given the fact that scum probably cannot true claim their potions, I'd imagine they might be given safe claims to make, because otherwise town can just confirm each other if there's similar potions between their inventories. Like, that is the thing that actively makes more sense to me as the reason for an early claim from him.

Like otherwise people are reading pob's bluster as townie and I'm not really sure I get it at all? In this situation scum can't afford to be eliminated because if they die they lose all their potions and that possibly just gives town autowin seeing as scum have limited damage, so playing with...a survivalist mindset here makes perfect sense, and I actually find him way scummier than T3 or Toog at this point?

And even though I healed her I feel officially kind of sketchy about how skitter is treating the momentum on toog to be something of an inevitability because it feels like she wants it to happen but can't really justify it

But then I don't know what scum were doing with their damage last night if she wasn't attacked


I think these mechanics are going to break me

[Retti]

I'm not sure why scum would have a mechanic that operates publicly, though? Like that just seems stupid.

[Retti]

VOTE: pob long

I actually think I want to go this way because I don't really like what he's been posting at all

[Retti]

im am really hating all the talking about eliminating based on mechanics we dont even know about from Retti and Skitter. scummy Toog already said something like that for me, and not all of you can be scums thought. Are we not doing any real scum hunting this game, huh Townies???? given up? where is your chutzpah????

Like this whole post just feels Off, I don't like how he is characterizing my reads as "eliminating based on mechanics we dont even know about" when that's Not Really what I was doing - I was working off what felt like a plausible POE at the time, as well as people's claims, and he reduces it down to That.

In addition, he's been deathtunneling toogeloo for 300 pages now, and as far as I can tell the only reason for it is Toog doesn't believe pob's claim? Which is not really a case at all.

[Retti]

Okay, that wasn't quite accurate, but I still don't really like this:

My "up to page 8" read list..

Rhyme and Reason
pob long
Datisi
T3
tSjIs
bugspray
---
Retti
skitter30

I think my top 3 should not be executed today.

pob long drops down to null-scum. My original impression was that pob long was the most basic of vanilla's since they had a potion that did nothing, however they have admitted to having two potions that do nothing or have unknown effects, and this I refuse to believe. I believe pob long is fucking with us.

In short, my current two scum reads are skitter and pob long.

HUH????? how did I go from there to here only from reasons that are making random guesses about the setup????

@pob you still owe me a q from yesterday i think, abt who are your townreads

tho at this point scumreads would be appreciated as well

Tijirls you retti and kind of skitter are who i think is town

Toog is the scummiest. T3 next. I dont feel as bad about RR as i did before but i dont feel as very good either.

why do you rather kill 2 people you dont think are as scummy. its a crap plan

I mean i dont really want to but its not looming looking like i can get toog today

why do you say that? i think toog is obvious scum and there is more than a week still left to play

Get pob long or T3 at -1 HP, execute the other. I'll poke the one at -1 HP, if someone else has a poke potion, they can poke me tonight, or you can execute me tomorrow and use tonight and tomorrow night worrying about MeLo after my mis-elim if it gets that far.

i feel like i am living on a different PLANET??????? DID YOU ALL TAKE A CRAZY PILL BEFORE THIS GAME HUH????? why did everyone in this game decide were not playing mafia anymore insted were gona shoot people Willy Nilly and see what happens because nobody even knos how the setup works????? I am really losing my nuts!!!!!!!!!!

nobody even knos how the setup works

thus is actually wrong

also, they have some amount of factional information and daytalk.

the mafia knows how things work more than us

toog, how can you be so sure your plan isnt extremely bad for town and good for mafia? you dont. YOU DONT IF YOUR TOWN. so only a scum can be so sure that they can give a plan like this and keep pushing the idea confidently. it is so so so obvious.

if toogoo gets their way then every body will have 1 damage tonight basicly, and we kno mafia probably has a hard time doing 2 damage in 1 night or else i would except a kill on the first night not to be wasted unless someone was protected or block

I'm impressed we haven't talked about the lack of no night kill all day lol.

there is not a factional nightkill.

Hmm...

sooooooo sosososo fake. pretending not to know stuff. WOW

everyone said they were dubois of toog when he was saying 'shoot me', now he sees what to do for us to give him a pass

toog cared the most about night time discussions, but was the last to claim what they did last night? huh??

Like look at all his, I know he's funny gimmick account speak bad so everyone ignores his posts, but it essentially starts of with him OMGUSing toogeloo because Toogeloo didn't believe his claim, and then it just follows by him saying toog is obvious somehow and making the most reachy excuses, such as: he is scum for wanting to use his potion to vig someone, toog wants to damage everyone (not true), he's "faking" not knowing things, he claimed his night action last (because...he didn't have one)

Like is this the guy people have decided to just sheep today?

[Retti]

I went and did a dive, and here are some context-free quotes from SK!pob, decide for yourself if he sounds similar to here:

Spoiler:

If Guillo was hit by both teams as role blocker I imagine either scum knows Ari is lying or scum would counterclaim and I'm not seeing any of the latter here.

why? Wouldn't it be smarter to let him get miselim'ed?

????? why would he lie if hes town

and why would guiltina say all thos things before getting almost voted if they were`nt the roleblocker???

VOTE: ASTROPANTS

your so so so scum

I dont believe hes the 'roleblocker' i think it was guiltina and he killed the real one so he knows it s safe

he did`nt even barley ask any questions to DGB and he said he though they were so scum he wasted two actions but did`nt do anything to stop it

do nt ignore astro is dogging my questions

I feel solid about catboi being town and think you at least aren’t scum with BM. Ari and POV both aren’t really towny rn but I’d rather elim the claimed Vat over the claimed RB, even if the RB hasn’t acted entirely to how he probably should have.

IT DOSNT MATTER WE LOSE IF WE KILL A TOWN TODAY IF IT IS A POWERFULL ROLE OR NOT

but atro is being so scummy

Tbh I wasn’t entirely aware of that, but even then last time I did the town-leader thing I led almost all 4 miselims
So there’s a bit of trepidation there yaknow?

Ultimately you're going to be a decisive vote anyway so you need to think about it.

I'm not sure pob's confidence is particularly AI, as scum here I think he'd

need

to push on the roleblocker claim if he believes it to be legitimate. I also...don't...really...townread...anything from him.

What are the chk/bm anti-associatives?

Also want to hear from Ari on what his reads are.

I dont believe it one bit did you see my posts

WHY WOULD I PUSH IF I BELIEVE IT

Astro just said I am (''pob long') town but all thos new posts had parts trying to scare me.....WHO WANTS TO SCARE TOWNIES???and make me look like scum to gamma

VOTE: Astro

so scummy trying to do everything to not to get votes

why would I try to vote scum so much times if im scum too i need help doing kills

so scummy trying to do everything to not to get votes

...you mean making cases and reviewing the game to make an informed decision with the highest chances of hitting scum?

Yeah, how evil of me.

and saying im town but convinsing trying to convinse gamma that im scummy

YOU STILL IGNORED MY QUESTION

you do nt want to look bad calling me scum because i already called you scum but you hope everyone thinks i am

AM I SO TOWN OR SO SCUM TO YOU????

[Retti]

T3 an Toog both being essentially willing to die really throws my reads into flux, I need to reconsider people I'd been writing off

[Retti]

@tʃɹɪs:

Why'd you choose to friendly neighbor pob, btw?

[Retti]

I'm talking about the aggressive tonality and half-baked reasoning from pob, the push there feels similar to here. I guess the confounding factor is that since it was multiball we're not sure if his push was sincere or not, buut I also looked at his towngame and this one feels a lot closer to his play as SK than as town.

And as for T3, I dunno, he's a newbie and most newbies don't pull the self-sacrifice gambit, in my experience. That's especially true here because no factional kill etc etc

[Retti]

....I hope that doesn't count as a disagreement, I was being so careful about what I chose to reply to

[Retti]

That thing has made today really annoying

[Retti]

And even though I healed her I feel officially kind of sketchy about how skitter is treating the momentum on toog to be something of an inevitability because it feels like she wants it to happen but can't really justify it

But then I don't know what scum were doing with their damage last night if she wasn't attacked

A) people arent told if rhey get damaged so we have no way of knowing what scum did last night
B) i believe i have in fact justified my toog push, what part feels unjustified to you
C) they almost got flipped, how ought i be viewing it? And do you thinj they should endgame or

That's not what I mean, I mean I would think you see him selfvoting and asking to be taken out of the game and go "hm maybe this is wrong" (because that's my reaction) and you've

sort of

made gestures toward that but still want it to happen which gives me that fear of "scum making a push they never would as town but have to get it through somehow", because that's sort of how I'd be going about it here

And, ugh, IDK if I want to say "never ever flip Toog" because I'm not

that

confident but I don't see why him claiming a damaging potion makes him the best flip today.

[Retti]

I feel like this is probably a faulty assumption? The OP says scum have some kind of factional information, and given the fact that scum probably cannot true claim their potions, I'd imagine they might be given safe claims to make, because otherwise town can just confirm each other if there's similar potions between their inventories. Like, that is the thing that actively makes more sense to me as the reason for an early claim from him.

A) i feel like the fact that toog is hyper aware of what scum's abilities are is +scum
B) so you think wcum were told there was a 'gulp' potion and decided to claim it pre-emptively? I kinda think it makes more sense that scum had a damage potion and upon seeing town claim it they claim it too >.>

I probably should have responded to this first, I guess, just couldn't resist reading backwards. IDK that he seemes "hyper-aware" here? And I would've thought scum would have been a bit more reticent to claim a damaging, I would expect them to want to claim something that sounds not explicitly antitown. I think the whole gimmickry of pob is making me paranoid because I think people see the typing style and assume he's an idiot who obviously wouldn't think to fake his claim but I'm pretty sure he's not dumb and is clever enough to fake it, and I don't find the bluster here townie as I've already said.

Oh good at least someone in this game acknowledges my existence in some form

Yea but you lack of motivation and just kinda disappearing act nakes it hard to keep up a scumread on u

I'm not unmotivated, I just had a rough few days IRL and had trouble keeping up with the game but I'm present and accountable now.

[Retti]

I mean, argh, I guess probably scum might try to claim a damaging potion to blend in. I don't know.

[Retti]

I, uh, did remember the mechanics stuff >_> but that was partly because of my own potion and partly because I'm a nerd who obsessively studied the setup info at the start.


Oh it's not that bad, just busy with work stuff and have a small cold or something but it sapped my energy to keep up with the thread, but holiday weekend, plenty of time to post now.

[Retti]

not nearly as strong, no
it's kinda evaporating in the same way the one on retti has


(i will note that retti has disappeared again too ...)

You realize that, until a few hour ago, basically N O T H I N G was happening, right? I was here all sunday and there was nothing to respond to and I barely got acknowledged.

You said you needed to rethink things but come back still wanting to flip toog.

I drop a bunch of words on why I want to vote pob long instead and no one even responds except for pob long to cherrypick on particular argument.

tris pops in and does nothing
t3 pops in and does nothing
RaR drops in and does nothing
Datisi sort of showed up and disagreed with me but I can barely even speak to him


Like IDK at this point there's nothing for me to work with and I'm sick of getting shut out here.

[Retti]

I mean like at this point it feels like everyone is waiting for something to happen but very few people are actually doing anything, I'm at least TRYING to but every time I do I get ignored so I'm kind of sick of this. Like what are we waiting for at this point?

[Retti]

Okay I guess Menalque made some posts about being paranoid of you and Datisi, which is something at least. I would personally agree at this point there's probably scum in that group, at least. I dunno, I want to talk to him about that now.

[Retti]

But also I'm just kind of bothered by you shading me for disappearing when the thread had been so inactive. I can't tell if that's AI though.

[Retti]

I'm just not sure those thoughts are all that valid and I had been kind of hoping you'd come around to that but the fact that you're back on it has me worried.
.
I don't think your push on him is OMGUS, I think in particular the timing of pob pushing Toog only happened when Toog started listing him as a suspect and from there he just started sort of throwing stuff at Toog.

I don't know what we're hoping to have happen in this game at this point, really.

[Retti]

Actually who was the first person to attack him for being "too in tune with the scum mechanics"? Lemme check that

[Retti]

Okay like he literally came in during a catchup after you'd already said it and said the same thing, how are you sure he's not just parroting you here?

[Retti]

- i think his exasperation at all the mechanic-talk is +town
- the way he's consistently talking abt his potions seems truthful to me (yes i know i said the opposite earlier)
- his toog thought process just kinda makes sense to me. How ~annoyed~ he is at what toog is saying and at the fact that we havent flipped him yet also feels town to me

The first points and the third point are basically NAI to me, scum can get frustrated as well as town and these are things I could see someone of either alignment getting worked up about. The middle point I could

maybe

see but again my skepticism here is that it's just, like, part of his gimmick and he knows doing that sort of thing is an easy clear with the right audience

And possibly a weird thing to say but he feels kinda unpartnered/unaligned almost

IDK, the fact he's being shielded by, like, all of you/RaR/Datisi makes me feel like something is up, like no you can't all be scum but if scum was in that group I would expect a lot less...resistance? to the vote, t3 is content to keep voting toogs, toog won't even join me on him, I don't get how he's unaligned exactly

[Retti]

i also just feel like the fact that you're so intune with the scum mechanics is +scum :/

idk maybe i'm tunneled but i'm having a hard time here seeing toog as town

i said that too

@retti does this come from scum in that universe?
Idk he's just so annoyed at how we're approachung this it just doesnf really feel like scum to me

I don't see why not?

[Retti]

It would be funny if it was pob/RaR and it was just like, people were doubting pob's claim and then RaR just came in to back him up and draw the heat off

[Retti]

Bleh, okay, I'm just gonna step away and think about it for a while

[Retti]

Who's scum, tʃɹɪs?

[Retti]

Whatever. Everyone seems to be stuck on this and it's not like any other vote is going to happen with the time we have left. Maybe I'm wrong. But if this is town and I die, please, please, please take another look at pob long.

VOTE: Toogeloo

[Retti]

...Seriously? That makes no sense.

[Retti]

Green cap bois

[Retti]

Honestly Datisi is a beast

[Retti]

We desperately wanted to avoid 5 way which is the whole reason we came up with the Win Night 2 plan. Was a big risk still, and honestly the whole time it was incredibly tense for us. I do feel bad about how apathetic most of the town got though

[Retti]

couldn't have done it without you!

You were the one who had the guts to take the charisma potion, don't ever think I'd have been brave enough to try it

[Retti]

dats, are you familiar with retti?

~Rhyme

Most terrifying post in the entire game BTW

[Retti]

Subject: mystery box of silver 12 PBP MOD (over n out)

not to be like evil moderator man but its not clear to me why retti is being townread

Hmph!

Subject: mystery box of silver 12 PBP MOD (over n out)

going to boldly say this was actually townsided if anything

I would agree with this, Tbh. I thought it was a really interesting setup but we basically had to walk a knife edge with how we played and there were so many things that could have gone wrong, if we both had not brought our absolute A game to this I don't think it would have been winnable. The plan to go all out on damage while spreading it around was a risk since we knew we were leaving PRs alive but we were panicky about the harmography potions + wanted to lull people into a false sense of security. If either of us had gone down I think the game would have been completely unwinnable though.

I also feel like town early claiming potions makes it hard, I was very afraid people might actually go through with T3's claim on day 1 plan. Even though people slipped enough things to let me guess at who was a "PR" was, that sort of early claim typically gets taken as a townclear and it probably would have been easier to deduce what fits in the setup and what doesn't.

Having the possibility of just...Running Out of kill power as mafia is exceptionally terrifying because nightless is extremely townsided and that's without the possibility of PR clears or getting popped by a watcher. That was part of why I wanted to win this as quickly as possible.

Anyway, figuring out what posts I wanna redact now.

[Retti]

I think the biggest issue with balance was that there was almost no indication this was going to be a bloodbath, which reduced town's urgency to solve.

I think this is a fair complaint, this was intentionally part of our strategy but town got blindsided by it, not knowing a day phase is functional ELO really sucks.

Well it kinda prevents scum from chipping at people or just doing too much damage in general or it's too easy to nail down what they did.

Honestly I think the mechanics were perfect and I wouldn't change them at all. I just didn't like the dave matthews potion and the charisma potion.

Right, as someone who watched Yggdrasil play out, scum in that game got trapped because town was able to claim verifiable damaging actions and they weren't, and had they opted to do chip damage instead they could only claim their shots if they weren't on obv-town players.

The damage being unknown added tension for us because we shot into the POE (which was unoptimal on our part) and then worried one of our planned kills would get yeeted.

[Retti]

I think the setup being semi-open looks good and fixes the issue where town were townreading each other off claiming similar potions and early claims and such. I'm down.

[Retti]

Also rereading the PT reminded me of this

Datisi: I want to use the charisma potion and meme with me

Me: haha go for it dude, Just Have Fun

Datisi: *becomes completely miserable as a result of charisma potion making it impossible for him to act reguarly*

whoops

[Retti]

who tf is retti

I'm just a humble elf boy who loves potions, whether they be red, green, or blue.