Newbie 2070 - Airplanes | GAME OVER

[Psyche]

hello everyone very excited to learn how to play mafia today

VOTE: T3 for making only slightly under half the posts in this thread so far, those are rookie numbers

[Psyche]

don't be deceived like i was
it just means more work and more enemies

[Psyche]

VOTE: GrandpaMo

i agree wagons are better

[Psyche]

i kind of find post 41 a bit artificial
the post just wasn't that funny

[Psyche]

also kind of odd to go from deriding "the paranoia of dumbtells" about one shitpost to "i might just townread u off this" about another in the span of like half an hour

[Psyche]

i kind of find post 41 a bit artificial
the post just wasn't that funny

huh i thouhgt u were meming ... u voting me was actually serious? LOL

i take memes very seriously!

[Psyche]

my vote was in the spirit of rvs where one mostly fishes for reactions to react to and/or observe further reactions to

[Psyche]

but now grandpamo is the scummiest grandpa alive!

[Psyche]

I'm so nervouss should I just unvote

[Psyche]

Nervous about what? A quickhammer?

um yes!
this is a newbie
what if someone in this game is insane??

[Psyche]

To answer your question, I don’t think I’m smart generally speaking.

Either this is an affectation or you need to love yourself a little more.

It's odd! In the abstract it's really refreshing to see someone say that. But in reality it's more often than not a sign of low self-esteem, a risk factor for all sorts of bad things, at least in the West.

Hey Lunar on a scale from very yes to very no are you depressed?

[Psyche]

If he thinks the wagon is rash why not just unvote?

well it's the best wagon!
and yet i don't want the Day to end today
i don't really know how to make the grounds for my ambivalence any clearer

[Psyche]

Grandpa perspective slipping and then posting walls.

Fun fun.

Care to elaborate?

[Psyche]

i know these games don't have ICs anymore and it's a bit patronizing for me to type it this way but i'd like to see fewer people sitting on not voting
if every player just sits on the sidelines until someone makes some clear scumslip this could be as far as we get contentwise
to do the bare minimum to keep the game flowing, just figure out your best hunch for who's scum, try to articulate as clear a reason why as you can, and lay down a vote to show you mean it
it's a wagon not a marriage after all (until someone hammers)

[Psyche]

if i could edit my post i'd replace "every player" if "most players" and "to keep" with "to help keep"

[Psyche]

I already have articulated the reasoning for my vote. And I don't think there's anything wrong about being clear about how strongly you're committed to a vote you're making. It would have been ridiculous for me to suggest that I thought I'd found scum on page 2 or 3 or whatever and this idea you're stuck to that it's bad that I would waver about a wagon established in that context seems ridiculous to me too tbh. But otoh it's important to get reasoned-out votes down to drive the game. If you're town.

[Psyche]

oh maybe i'm mixing you up with someone else

[Psyche]

wait is this just me indirectly taking responsibility for getting us out of RVS and bragging about it???
ok sorry yeah i can do better than that

[Psyche]

imo you should also make an effort to clearly justify the vote with some reasoning
do whatever though i'm not your dad

[Psyche]

I need to digest a little before I change my vote. I'll try to get to know each user. Is it okay if I distribute that across several posts? I'm not gonna be able to do all this in one sitting anyway.

BlurryX

Post 131 was a whopper, eh?

Spoiler:

Sorry, folks. It was a busy weekend for me so I wasn't particularly active, but I read through the last few pages and I have some thoughts I want to get out there:

We have 8 days guys, no need to rush anything. Wrt to Mo, I miselimed him in a past game. He could be scum here or limbait. Some people are naturally scummy players. It would be nice if we had some time to actually see he’s really the best elim or not.

He isn’t playing extremely differently here from the game I miselimed him in so I’m wary.

This post suggests town to me. If someone were scum, I don't know if they would be wanting to inject doubt into the primary bus this early on. It could be waffling, but to me the more likely scenario is town trying to play carefully and make sure that they aren't just getting rid of someone who is unlikeable but isn't scum.

The E-1 early on is probably a good thing, because it's the catalyst that is getting people talking (provided no quick-hammer). Without it, I'm not sure people would be talking as much this early on in the game (although I'm not super familiar with how the early games really go usually).

Thoughts on some other players:

@Psyche

Hasn't really posted anything of substance. Hopped on the wagon early (I guess technically started it, was he 2nd vote on Grandpa?) but I feel like RVS doesn't go anywhere without those first few steps. A few jokes, but nothing that can really be analyzed other than #67. Writing that, but not unvoting could be a way of distancing himself from any blame if wagon ends up lynching town. Kind of like a "see, I'm not a scum who was pushing the wagon, I had doubts about it".

@Clarkbar

Contributing more of substance than the others. I buy his reasoning for putting someone to 4 votes, as has been proven, it is a good way to provoke discussion, which gives more information to work with. I don't think there's anything I want to specifically highlight in his posts, he seems to be asking questions and sharing his thoughts, but I don't think there's anything I can see that tells me anything about his particular leanings.

One thing that did strike me was in

@T3

Similar to Psyche in that there wasn't much substance there, just hopping on the wagon and pressing it. Could be Psyche/T3 scum team (can two SEs be mafia in the same game?) but that would be kind of convenient.

@Grandpa

I don't interpret him voting for himself as scummy as you others do. If I could summarize his defense it is: nobody has built a convincing case on me yet and hammering me early cuts off any further discussion for the day, neither of which tell me anything one way or another. I'm curious to see how this develops over the course of the day.

@LunarEclipse

Self-deprecation aside, they've had one post of any substance #79. I'm not as convinced as Nancy is that this is a town-leaning post, because I think that assuming someone can't put themselves into the mindset of town just because this is their first game on this forum. I think I need to see more posts from them before I develop any ideas of leaning.

I think that covers everyone so far. For now I think keeping Grandpa as the lead contender for the guillotine is the right move, as they do have an erratic posting style that may cause confusion later in the game, but hopefully there is something more substantive to base a day 1 lynch off of in the next few days, and we haven't yet heard from the two AFK players.

- Comment about Nancy's 62 suggesting town because of its "no need to rush anything" isn't sufficiently fleshed out to me. BlurryX reviews two possible ways the post's could be interpreted wrt to alignment (waffling scum vs cautious town) but doesn't really explain why he comes down on the cautious town narrative instead of the former. So the read doesn't really engage substantially with the interpretive challenge or take us as a town anywhere beyond the fact of its communication. If I just take the comment at face value, it's sort of naive imo. Post 62 is pretty easy to fake as scum, especially if Nancy and Mo aren't on the same team.

- Comment about me is off. I think I've done a lot of substance so far! I feel personally responsible for the E-1 he celebrates a paragraph earlier. Of course I disagree with the idea that only my #67 can be analyzed or that I was being performative in it. In that post, I wanted the town to know the ambivalence I was feeling and to fish for more concrete takes on the wagon by posing this ambivalence as a question.

- Thing about clarkbar is a whole lotta nothing again. Okay you think he's posting a lot but he's null, got it. He doesn't even finish the last sentence in that section. That's fine, it's not illegal, whatever.

- Comment about T3 is really off to me! If we look at the Clarkbar read it's clear that "makes posts of substance" isn't BlurryX's guiding light for sorting between town and scum. But all BlurryX can say about T3 before suggesting that he and I might be a scum team is that "there wasn't much substance there". So what's the actual thought process behind these reads? And of course later on, it's Grandpa rather than me or T3 who BlurryX asserts should be "the lead contender for the guillotine", even though there's nothing else else in this entire post that suggests anyone has done anything he has found alignment-indicative!

- Comment about Grandpa again

takes a stance

on the possibility of interpreting his self-vote as scummy but fails to

provide justification

for the stance, much like his comment on Nancy's #62. The proposed summary of Grandpa's defense doesn't even touch on the self-vote so it's just a non sequitor.

- Stuff about LunarEclipse is about as helpful as the stuff about Clarkbar to me tbh.

So I should probably summarize this. There's this tendency among people to see a wallpost and think "wow effort so town", but imo this wallpost is all over the place. The reads are not really all that fleshed out (see my comments about his Grandpa and Nancy reactions), and the firmest stances among them (re me, T3, Grandpa) are pretty contradictory. I feel like emphasizing my section on T3 here in particular. There's a plain contradiction between his content there and his comments most of all about Grandpa but also other players too imo and I hope other players don't gloss over it.

Given all these issues, I'm stuck trying to figure out if the post is a mess because of inexperience I have to weigh his experience and check out all the other players first, but this is a really frustrating wallpost.

ah if i'm just making this post about blurryx do i even need the area tags? hmm yes i think i'll stick to my guns about the area tags

[Psyche]

sry that post was too glib i should not be in newbie games calling posts messes i will do better

[Psyche]

wow glib is not the word i thought it was. instead of glib i think i meant...insouciant. yeah insouciant i spelled that right. ok next person. wow i love small games i'm almost halfway through!

Clarkbar

Uh I'm not really seeing a post about Clarkbar that I really feel like breaking down, sorry. I think I agree with most of it, except the stuff about my unvote. Maybe if I weren't me, I'd agree with that too, who knows? I think I'd be willing to bet a lot that he's town, but it's hard for me to get motivated enough to explain a townread unless the person is at L-1 or something. I think a good way of summarizing it is that while when I dig into BlurryX's contributions I don't see a lot below the surface, ClarkBar's content seems to more clearly reflect an organically organized perspective on the game even under scrutiny. I guess I can elaborate more if it gets relevant but I sure hope the game doesn't get that boring.

GrandpaMo

I remember catching myself about #23 but there's really nothing there.

There's still a clear tension between #39 and #41 as far as the range of GrandpaMo's default reaction to shitposts is concerned. As I put it before, it's "kind of odd to go from deriding "the paranoia of dumbtells" about one shitpost to "i might just townread u off this" about another in the span of like half an hour". I don't think it's enough to base a lynch on at all, though. After all, maybe the difference in reactions is just a different in appraised humor between the two posts.

A secondary issue I had with #41 in particular is that it seemed sort of artificial on its own and I still feel that way, especially in light of the above tension. #41 seemed too...effusive about a pretty ordinary joke, I think. But whatever, it's time we move on from that.

(Also woah the idea that T3 just blindly wagoned that I've seen in other posts is false! He had a whole separate justification for the vote!)

#46 establishes that he interprets the vote(s) as unserious, at least ambivalently. Goes on to like 91? Maybe further. Okay where's the content I'll scroll a little.

Something in #113 striked me as kinda silly when I read it:

can ANYONE give me a reason they scumread me?

...

Can anyone give me a SCUMCASE on me OTHER than psyche?

That's no scumread though, just odd rhetoric. The post also misstates T3's justification for their vote. In general though, makes clear that GMO is following at least and offers a defense for his behavior "I thought we were all just memeing!". Poor guy's acting like this was his first RVS. People taking an unserious post seriously is always how these games get rolling, no?

The wallposts are kind of tough to get into after having already gotten into another one so recently but they don't seem bad or fake, sure. Even as GMO keeps elaborating on the conditions of his posts and his reactions to our votes, nothing pops up that suggests his account is artificial. It's of course quite possible for mafia to sincerely believe in their defenses though; they can believe a case for thinking they're scum is bad even as they know they are scum. So I'm not gonna go townreading him for this.

His quotes of BlurryX just remind me of how off I find BlurryX's reads. GMO's erratic? I guess if you're still living in the first couple pages of this thread.

#142 is bread and butter stuff, though not much of it. Okay, I guess I lean town. Does the unvote tag exist?

UNVOTE:

Wow technology these days sure is something.

LunarRest

#79 is really all we have from LunarRest and it's fine. I'm not like impressed by it in the sense that I don't agree with their mindset/approach to the game but #79 is fine in terms of alignment-indication.

Nancy Drew 39

Wow I'm so close to actually finishing. Okay let's do this.

Hmm pretty terse early okay. I've already stated my feelings about #62; it's not alignment indicative in a clear way. Wow #74 is just a naked vote interesting. Oh #76:

He isn’t playing extremely differently here from the game I miselimed him in so I’m wary.

I hate this. Why move my vote? E-1 is fun!

VOTE: GrandpaMo

This post is ick.

Hmm not that much better but it is better ok.

VOTE: GrandpaMo

i agree wagons are better

LOL thats actually funny -- i might just townread u off this

That’s an NAI post, Psyche’s I mean, so I don’t see how you read that as AI?

#85 is a sort of late reaction but a good question (though it probably would have seemed hyperbolic if she'd made it on the same page #41 happened; actually probably the sort of question to kick us out of RVS?).

#88 reads Lunar's post about the same way I did but a bit more firmly, and I do like that. "Mind meld"?

Clear subtext of history between Nancy and GMO that's useful for tracking the tone of her dialogue with him. She's a little more biased to read insouciance into his posts (I found another use for the word! Wait did I go with flippant or insouciant in that other post?).

Hmm overall nancy's posting is too terse for me to get a sound read off her despite her steady flow of content. But the stuff in her iso that seems useful for sorting gives off town smells.

T3

Gosh area tags are neat. Have I already said that?

T3's iso is easier to read because he doesn't have a sig. Maybe I should ditch mine. Maybe I try to get sigs banned.

I like #45 but who doesn't like it when someone agrees with and wagons with you?

A bit less content after that than I thought I'd see.

Grandpa perspective slipping and then posting walls.

Fun fun.

Grandpa has basically scumclaimed at this point.

God I sure hope he finds the time to elaborate on 118 and 120 because those are pretty strong accusations. I don't even know what perspective slipping means, but it sure sounds serious.

I thought I'd have an easier time sorting T3 but I guess he stopped multiposting after RVS ended. Really am a bit invested in seeing what comes of 118/120.

That's everyone! Guess I'm a BlurryX hater now. VOTE: BlurryX

[Psyche]

i prefer the term kooky ty

[Psyche]

By virtue of being the second player on the wagon?

by being the first "serious" vote in the whole game!

[Psyche]

aw man i posted too much no one is taking note of my blurryx read

[Psyche]

i know these games don't have ICs anymore and it's a bit patronizing for me to type it this way but i'd like to see fewer people sitting on not voting
if every player just sits on the sidelines until someone makes some clear scumslip this could be as far as we get contentwise
to do the bare minimum to keep the game flowing, just figure out your best hunch for who's scum, try to articulate as clear a reason why as you can, and lay down a vote to show you mean it
it's a wagon not a marriage after all (until someone hammers)

We have 6 days and I only vote when I feel confident about it.

I think that's bad strategy! It makes both you harder to read and the game less dynamic overall!

imo you should also make an effort to clearly justify the vote with some reasoning
do whatever though i'm not your dad

If you’re pushing people to vote regardless if they actually feel confident about it or not, you can’t expect great reasoning.

You're the one saying "great" here. My justification for my GMO vote wasn't toptier reasoning. But it was good for the game!

[Psyche]

ah wow these posts have a lot of words

[Psyche]

hi marashu!
i'm voting blurryx!

Thanks, fixed - M

everyone should be voting blurryx. i even think that should be the lynch for today!

[Psyche]

call it a personal weakness but my eyes glaze over when i try to dig into the nancy val exchange. i really really hope there's nothing alignment-indicative in there.

[Psyche]

ok yeah i agree that i was a bit overeager in that one post suggesting we just go ahead and lynch blurry or whatever

[Psyche]

he has been

[Psyche]

wow that's a pretty snappy replacement at least

[Psyche]

While my predecessor did place his vote during the RVS stage, I think it was actually well placed unknowingly.
73 and 269 strikes me as rather hypocritical, it was addressed, kind of. I'm very curious why Psyche in 310 claimed he was being overeager. You agree with whom? I reread every post between 269 and 310 any a time and didn't see anyone bring up 269 nor comment on it. I honestly feel like this is a scumslip that was meant to be in the scum chat but they messed up.
As such my vote is staying here.

ah man i have to like have a whole other tab open to follow this

[Psyche]

i don't really follow how 73 and 269 come off as hypocritical; they don't seem to really overlap discursively. i also don't really see why the characterization is relevant anyway? like if the posts are hypocritical, then is that scummy? or what? how?

re:310 my "overeager" note; it was probably pushing too hard to call for us to just go ahead and lynch blurryx while he was unavailable to really engage with any of the criticisms in his post. proper flow would have been to solicit that engagement and then decide between lynching or not.

as for who it was agreeing with? val makes a whole wallpost about the blurryx wagon that starts with the line "I'm more than a little concerned about this taking off as quickly as it is". It's kinda odd that you missed that even after re-reading that entire interval of posts.

[Psyche]

I think the meat of my response to your 336 is that I already mostly townread the people you're referencing and when I townread someone I tend to lose interest in them in their posts unless either something big happens to build up my suspicion or other players start drumming up a wagon on them. The result is often pretty light pbbas/questioning for townreads, if even that. I agree it's a blind spot, but it's a game and when I play games I avoid the boring parts.

This another one of those things I don't really even track the relevance of though. I guess the idea is that maybe I'm not really searching for scum? I think my reaction to that possible accusation is that I have made plenty of posts by now where I try to sort scum.

[Psyche]

It's nice that you're developing thought processes and all but I think a decently skilled player is perfectly capable of these sorts of wallposts as scum. I'm gonna stick to my vote.

[Psyche]

I do think it's interesting that Psyche has been the backbone of both wagons. I don't know their meta, are they usually so wagon-happy?

i mean this just goes back to my stance that voting has lots of uses besides achieving a lynch

[Psyche]

gotta say i'm often rather confused by the things you guys find confusing
like, didn't we cover this?

[Psyche]

you are!
guess you don't know it yet though

[Psyche]

there's no way you're saying me that seriously

[Psyche]

i havent run the numbers just yet but im pretty sure that in general (perhaps not in this game) an OMGUS by itself is NAI in the slightest

[Psyche]

gotta say i'm often rather confused by the things you guys find confusing
like, didn't we cover this?

can u give me us ur reads?

i feel like u havent contributed nothing imo

can u answeer mi question mi amigo

just read my iso
you obviously missed some posts

[Psyche]

I've been leaning town on Nancy, but Val's convinced me that there really is stuff not to like about her in her ISO. By her own account, I should be taking her votes more seriously than I might someone else's in the game because she purportedly will never make them unless she's confident they'll land on scum. But when I look at her one vote this whole game (for Val!) I just see boring resentment, not any sorting, and definitely nothing afterward to either sharpen or otherwise help propel the town based on the read. She explicitly disavows any read-based motivation a single post later. For these reasons her ISO is super frustrating and hard to distinguish from active lurking. I mean we're now 17 pages, 419 posts, into the game and she has nothing but a bunch of specious null and town reads? It's tough to swallow.

At the same time though, there's little here to positively mark her as scum

if

her meta is consistent with this decision to never meaningfully weigh into the game - which I've only been assuming is the case but I'd bet it is. Val tries to make more of it by marking out apparent contradictions between posts like 183, 202, and 212, but tbh that's small fry shit. Any apparent tension between those posts is resolved by acknowledging that she didn't vote Val because she scumread the slot; she voted it because she was mad at him, and has been ambivalent about admitting as much. Unless there's some reason to interpret that anger as disingenous, that's NAI to me - though antitown in context.

also bold red! that sure helps single out stuff! gotta touch that sparingly though

[Psyche]

well you know what they say
laziness breeds innovation

[Psyche]

Or rather is it not dodgy?

Is anti-town as an SE in a newbie game not scummy?

I mean, no. But also I'm probably being hyperbolic anyway. Nancy's not literally active lurking...or is she? I'm maybe more ambivalent than my post suggests. I mean her iso does have reads and reasonings in it. Just not the red meat I get the most help from.

[Psyche]

tbf nancy

can

be the sort to get wrapped up in these sorts of conflicts in general, so it's not clear if we should treat that as alignment-indicative either
a little meta dive could do a lot of work here perhaps

[Psyche]

When I die, please yeet this into the stratosphere and if it flips scum, then flip Psyche next. Psyche has played with me before in Forest Fire, so he’s read on me is also bs.

haha what

[Psyche]

oh but re:forest fire i honestly don't even recall the game

[Psyche]

i do think that i know enough about nancy to believe most of what she's being criticized for is NAI
however i think already said as much? i think that while i'm sympathetic to criticism of nancy's play i'm pretty neutral on idea that she's mafia and think the main case against her falls apart once you accept that her vote wasn't based on a read

i still think blurryx's replacement would be a better lynch

ah why am i doing this on my phone my laptop is right next to me

[Psyche]

i do think that i know enough about nancy to believe most of what she's being criticized for is NAI
however i think already said as much? i think that while i'm sympathetic to criticism of nancy's play i'm pretty neutral on idea that she's mafia and think the main case against her falls apart once you accept that her vote wasn't based on a read

i still think blurryx's replacement would be a better lynch

ah why am i doing this on my phone my laptop is right next to me

There's no active scumhunting, no active attempt at solving, no active attempt at forming reads not based on meta. Her only activity spanning over the past 250~ posts is meta reliance and OMGUS. That isn't NAI its scum.

i think there are actually quite a few apparent attempts at forming reads even if no scumreads are produced and you maybe do overstate things when you suggest otherwise

[Psyche]

I'm having a hard time following what you find fishy about my reads around you nancy but I think we're just reading the situations differently. I think the case against you is not very good, but I will not rule out the possibility that you're scum. I can see why a position like that might seem opportunistic for scum, but it's also what I'm sincerely feeling atm. I sure wish I could put that one emoji right here. The one with the shrugging.

[Psyche]

UNVOTE:

aw man
ok gimme a moment to remember what newbie setups are

[Psyche]

VOTE: JamesTheNames

I think I'm pretty sure JTN is scum. To keep setup ambiguous from scum for at least one night longer, someone should go ahead and hammer.

[Psyche]

hehe probably unwise to pull gambits in newbies but i felt like a betting man today
we'll work these nicks out tomorrow val my guy

[Psyche]

Oh, T3 was already on the wagon.

Okay I'll be clear. I have a role that makes James's claim impossible. I don't want to elaborate further. Do I have to?

[Psyche]

a rose by any other name is just as sweet

[Psyche]

posts like the above are just frantically fishing for information and people shouldn't engage with them. plenty of time to do that D2 if you still feel it's pertinent.

[Psyche]

it totally was a gambit though im sry val89 wait does that mean you're like 32 or do you perhaps really dig taylor swift's hit album of the same name or maybe even that one smashing pumpkins song

[Psyche]

oh the smashing pumpkins song is called 1979
has taylor swift rewritten my memory?

[Psyche]

tbc there was like no reason for you to claim tracker there
this is maybe an important thing to learn about while you're still doing newbies

[Psyche]

i cannot understand how gmo can't find my case on blurryx you just have to iso me and ctrl+f what the heck is going on

[Psyche]

ah gmo if you're scum this is actually a pretty nice performance

[Psyche]

wait im confused, val can u give me like what happened in the past 2 pages

val pls don't do this just don't

[Psyche]

gosh james even after the hammer
so industrious

[Psyche]

i'm a fakeclaimer what can i say
my father was a fakeclaimer and his father before him

[Psyche]

im

town

fakeclaiming
i'm just that unpredictable

[Psyche]

look
i just thought it over real hard and decided i couldn't let james get away with such a bad claim
if he flips town then god that sucks and i accept all blame if the town loses
but in the end mafia is about having fun and i live for the thrill

[Psyche]

Psyche, you didn't need to say that either... :neutral:

Just everyone shut up and log off, will you?

oh yeah sorry i got into a bit of a silly mood yeah we chat tomorrow

[Psyche]

wait how the fuck do you know that

[Psyche]

yeah could someone drop a hammer in here
it looks like val was already voting james in his last thing

[Psyche]

just drop another hammer to be sure

[Psyche]

[Psyche]

i'd like to make it to tomorrow actually

[Psyche]

Thanks Clark. This was honestly a terrible spot to be in for town and I don't envy what I put you guys through.

I really wanted to be the elimination yesterday. Then Grandpa (no shade) really just made such a damn good case against himself.

This game may not be for me. What a progression. Suspect and vote the jail keeper, get sick near the end of D1, initiate a wagon against town D2, bite on grandpa (I couldn’t imagine scum wasn’t on the D2 wagon) and shit the bed D4. My shame knows no bounds.

oh don't be like that! it's just a tough game! the nice thing about tough games is that there's always tons of room to grow and explore and never really one right way to play

[Psyche]

i really wish i'd have jailkept the right guy it would have been glorious
but that bus was pretty convincing!

[Psyche]

it really is