Newbie 2070 - Airplanes | GAME OVER

[Chuck Shurley]

I am upset I didn't replace Wayward Son.

[Chuck Shurley]

I've skimmed up to here but need to go back and do a more thorough read when it isn't the middle of my work day.

Immediate impressions:

val89 and Nancy's spat = classic TvT tunneling imo.

Clark and Roden townie mc townerson game solving attempts

T3 null until I do a careful read through...the only post of theirs that stood out on skim was noticing Grandpa talking about knowing alignment and I need to see if that's because the rest of their posts are scummy fluff or just unmemorable.

Psyche null. On one hand could be experienced player poking beehives to get the game rolling, on the other could be scum trying to stir chaos.

I want Blurry to come back and talk more, because that post seems disingenuous and I don't like it, but one post is...one post.

Don't like Grandpa.


Okies. Be back later.

[Chuck Shurley]

eh you coming in and immediately finding scum on blurry then having the wildcards such as t3 and psyche as null because you dont know how they play then just saying you dont like me for no reason. im expecting a reason for all these reads, (i hope u werent caught up by that time)

Sometimes not giving a reason gets better results than giving one.

The answer to your parenthetical is in my post.

[Chuck Shurley]

I am lunarrest now, and I have contributed, you just kneejerk reacted to my read.

[Chuck Shurley]

I initially scum read you because you're reactive and there was plenty of reason to post intent to hammer on your wagon, but no one did, which I was strongly believing was your team mate either roosting on your slot for town cred, or pushing people to doubt so they'd stop voting for you.

I scumread blurry because their one real post felt like posturing -saying one thing, such as "this is town" then subtly undermining that assessment in the following sentences—up to and including null-reading my slot but still strongly casting doubt on motive. However, it was just one slot, I have no insight into how they play or if they've played before, and that could as easily be insecurity as it could be scum.

So...I didn't give a reason for my scum read on you in my list because I wanted to see how you and blurry would react. You snapped back at me, which I expected, but blurry-slot immediately jumped down my throat about that specific action being scummy, which I did not expect from a scum mate since it's obvious buddying. So either you're both idiots (which commentary from people who have played with you does not seem to support), or one or both of you are town.

Or, you know, I'm wrong, because Mafia is a bitch. But that's where I'm at.

[Chuck Shurley]

Dude, you did snap back at me. You may not think you did, but you did. How you intended a thing and how a thing actually came across can and usually are two different things.

Not giving a reason DID give me information- it told me that either you or James or both are town. You can try to twist that into a scum read if you want, but it's not going to help town.

[Chuck Shurley]

I gave explanations for my town reads. Val and Nancy were going at each other in a way that has, in my experience (albeit it's been years since I last played) is indicative of TvT tunneling.

Roden is actively game solving. Clark is actively game solving. They're going through posts trying to find patterns and information and engaging people in ways that could be really good scum playing the field, but is probably just straight up town trying to figure shit out.

I'm not the only one who is meh about Psyche and T3, so scum reading me for not reading differently seems just a tad hypocritical.

Which part of these reads would you like me to explain further?

[Chuck Shurley]

You are correct, however: I did promise a thorough read and I haven't delivered. On it.

[Chuck Shurley]

Page 1

14 (T3) This seems try-hard for how early in the game it was posted. Page 3 of a dragging game I could see. Post 14 when someone had posted an hour before? Meh.

23 (Grandpa) Why role and not alignment here?

Page 2

30It isn't RVS if you have to have a reason to vote, and you're clearly thinking hard about it. This seems fidgety and too try-hard for town, and is why I first started scumreading Grandpa.

32 The first thing Grandpa's said that I agree with.

33 Good question, Clark.

36 (T3) This seems like a good way to get modkilled at some point in the future, but isn't AI for the purpose of this game, imo.

40 and 41 - What does this even mean, Psyche? Why are you townreading them for it, Grandpa? I mean...basically this: 44

45 I surface-level agree with what T3 is saying, but this post feels like coasting.

46 So I actually town read Grandpa for this now I've skimmed the thread and talked a bit and can see how he posts, but when I first read I was super put off by it.

48 and 49 (and lbr, most of Grandpa's memeing) drive me up the wall, but we subsequently spend multiple pages discussing his behavior and I am thus sufficiently convinced that this is NAI.

Page 3

I'm noticing that Nancy's newbie direction to actual content ratio is skewed in the wrong direction.

55 I like Clark's game-solving stuff here, other than "liking wagons." Why do you like wagons? My understanding of that term has town-damaging negative connotations.

67 This is the post that put me in "trying to get people posting more, or just trying to cause chaos" mindset re: Psyche. If they seriously scumread Grandpa re: 58, why would they back down on their vote just because Grandpa got to E-1? Why would they poll the thread about it?

73 True about the newbie game. I think at this point there were still people who hadn't posted at all, and I suppose one of those could have come in with an I-didn't-read-anything-yet RVS vote and take out Grandpa. However...why not clearly state that and remove your vote instead of being weird about it?

74 Why? Clark is painfully town at this point.

Page 4

75 and 76 Why?

79 Thank you previous me, I hadn't considered that. *squints*

84 Okay, not wanting the day to end early is fair. More talking is more better for town. At the same time, 67 still feels fake af.

85 (and a few more after) - Nancy's posts really aren't pushing the game along. I suppose asking Grandpa for motive counts, but I am going to do an ISO and do a proper comparison of content to direction/arguing/AtE when I'm done with this.

92 (T3) Yes, but could you tell us why?

93 Grandpa's just not on the same page, I suppose. Also, he's buddying T3 here and I'm not liking it. That bit about alignment could be a scum slip (I've seen more blatant) or it's mislim bait. Based on the rest of the thread I'm inclined to the latter but dude, read the room and think about what you write, yeah?

96 On a second read through I am not townreading this as hard as I did my first skim. If Grandpa is town and Clark is mafia, then Grandpa's statement is the easiest thing in the world to call out and cast suspicion without seeming suspicious yourself (see above), especially given he's already at E-1 at this point. Similar vibe with 97.

Page 5

101 And here the confusion begins that leads to Val vs Nancy. Nancy could have avoided a world of confusion and arguing by just linking to some example posts in the game in question. There's nothing about her behavior in that game in this post and no reason for people to suss out HER posts, just skim for Grandpa's. A simple "This game, but I'm not going to ID my alt and I have the right to do that" (I think? Otherwise what's the point of having alts...) would have solved so many problems.

102 Nancy needs to stop telling other people how to play and just play.

103 to 108 - T3 is laughing at a serious E-1, but pushing Nancy to declare intent. I don't like contradictions.

110 If Grandpa knows T3's alignment plays so very well, why is he later ragging on people (me) about our reads instead of telling us how and why we are wrong?

114 Page 5 is plenty long enough to have a rough reads list. Also, Grandpa says he know T3's tells, so I'd love to know specifically why he was townreading him here.

117 (Nancy) Eh, okay. If I'd been playing from the start I might have been similarly inclined to hand hold in hopes of better results because memeing drives me batshit.

118 and 120 I think I'm getting a grip on T3's play style. He's being consistent and persistent about his scumread so I'm leaning town on him for these posts. Still squinting at the laughter over serious E-1, but...I mean...it's page 5. It may not be too early for a reads list, but it is pretty damn early to get to this point in voting.

122 This sounds like confused and frustrated town.

124 This feels like Psyche is just asking questions to appear active. A skim of page 4 and 5 is all it takes to understand T3's post.

Page 6

125Clark, can you explain how you saw Nancy's posts as a defense of Grandpa's playing? I just read and re-read and I see her calling out that he's playing *differently* and that she's frustrated he won't take the game seriously. None of that looks like defense to me.

126 So if T3 is gleeful about Grandpa's position and you like what Grandpa himself is saying, why are you still voting Grandpa?

128 Hey, Grandpa gets serious, and I like it! I glazed over this one in my initial read because it was so long and I sort of assumed it would be full of more BS, but this post is so, so town. Also I got my explanation for the T3 town read. Aight.

131 I was initially reading their questions as disingenuous efforts to look innocent, but the account only has 34 posts so maybe they were asked in good faith. But this overshadows that by miles:

For now I think keeping Grandpa as the lead contender for the guillotine is the right move,

as they do have an erratic posting style that may cause confusion later in the game

, but hopefully there is something more substantive to base a day 1 lynch off of in the next few days, and we haven't yet heard from the two AFK players.

The bolded part I think is the most important; there's an implication here that they know Grandpa is town, since their argument is based on Grandpa's post style rather than on any particular scummy plays Grandpa has made. I read this as "let's lim this townie because they might be misread as scum later." The thing is, you cannot make that statement without knowing your target is town, which you could not know unless you are in fact scum.

It doesn't help that they specifically and particularly do NOT put themselves in the spot light by declaring intent to hammer (despite stating that votes should stay on him), which would have provided an immediate and useful answer to Grandpa's alignment. It feels VERY strongly of clumsy scum manipulation.

Since Blurry isn't in the game anymore I can't ask them to explain themselves, which is intensely frustrating. Basically what it means is I'll be reading James' posts through scumread glasses until/unless he effectively shows me this was a bad town play rather than a scumslip.

132 If Clark and Blurry are scum, then 125 was Clark setting himself up to step off a rapidly less sustainable wagon, and this post is him distancing himself from a clumsy partner.

138 I find Clark's rapid change of heart and immediate request for input to be vaguely sus.

The rest of Grandpa's posts on this page are townleaning.

Gotta stop for now, this is so many words. In summary so far: Townreading Grandpa now. T3 is town leaning. Clark is leaning sus. Blurry/James is still sus. Still getting a handle on Psyche. Nancy and Val are still town based on my read of their exchange, but that may change. Haven't gotten to Roden to decide if my full read matches my skim-read.

I'll respond to questions @ me in a bit.

[Chuck Shurley]

Val and Nancy were going at each other in a way that has, in my experience (albeit it's been years since I last played) is indicative of TvT tunneling.

What part or factors of it did you personally consider indictive of TvT, in your experiance?

It's the single-minded intensity. I'm far from a mafia veteran and I haven't played any mafia at all in forever, but when I WAS playing, scum *loved* shit like this because it got Town arguing among themselves and took the heat off them.

So...I didn't give a reason for my scum read on you in my list because I wanted to see how you and blurry would react. You snapped back at me, which I expected, but blurry-slot immediately jumped down my throat about that specific action being scummy, which I did not expect from a scum mate since it's obvious buddying. So either you're both idiots (which commentary from people who have played with you does not seem to support), or one or both of you are town.

I've re-read this several times, but I'm not following the logic, and how it leads to either of the conclusions presented. Would you mind attempting to rephrase or else explain like I am an idiot?[/quote]

My initial read on grandpa was that he was reactive and defensive in a way that has, in the past, indicated newbie scum. I didn't give a reason for disliking him because I knew he WOULD react, but wanted to specifically see how. He replied with "zomg so scummy" which is exactly what I expected based on what I'd seen so far in my skim-read.

In a world where Grandpa and Blurry were actually a team, I then expected blurry or blurry's replacement to completely ignore the exchange, try to defer attention somewhere else, or perhaps agree with me in an attempt to seem town.

What I did not expect was for James (my other clear scum read) to come in saying the same thing. For scum 1 to defend scum 2 so early in the game seems extremely unlikely / dangerous, so a grandpa/james team seems extremely unlikely.

Thus by default either one of them is town and one of them is scum, or both of them are town.

Now in my deep dive (see above) I've determined that Grandpa seems solid town now that I've actually read some of his post-meme posts, and I've also outlined why I scumread blurry's post so admittedly, I could have come to that conclusion without a test, but... *shrug* what's done is done.

[Chuck Shurley]

Ugh I broke the quote nesting. -_-

[Chuck Shurley]

you type

Title of area

Content [/ area] without the spaces.

[Chuck Shurley]

VOTE: Clark

I clearly stated I still had work to do before adjusting all my reads, and the day ended before I could get back to do that.

Since my read on Blurry was correct and I've nitpicked multiple places where Clark's posts don't make sense from a town perspective, this is where I'm staying.

[Chuck Shurley]

I just did an ISO on Blurry, James, and Clark.

131 - Blurry does a wishy-washy read on Clark that gives them plenty of space to slide into whatever read of Clark is convenient later.

James town reads Clark, but only indirectly (333 and 363). He otherwise doesn't offer reads on Clark, and barely mentions him. He does (again) indirectly town-align Clark in his comment to me in 403.

Clark barely mentions Blurry- he "liked" Psyche's read on them (180) but offered no further commentary, and then quoted Blurry's comment on him (131). He doesn't follow up at all, except to ask this:

342
[quote]Quick question to newcomers (and welcome!) how do you feel about the dissolution of the Grandpa wagon and the quick reforming of the James/Blurry slot?[quote]

Which he also doesn't follow up on. In fact the next time he mentions James at all is D2 when he's casting doubt on me for reasons that are negated by the fact that I stated clearly that I had to "stop for now" and that I hadn't finished my reads, and the events he's referring to happened while I was gone.


In summary: Blurry's post is meh, but James was throwing suspicion around like candy while he was here, and Clark has been active enough that it's notable he didn't catch any from James. Clark was asking questions and poking around, but didn't respond to anything James said, when he absolutely should have if his questions were genuine.


Basically...vote Clark and get the job done.

[Chuck Shurley]

Can TvT tunneling cross day phases? Yes. As one specific example: Town lost in a game I played in quite a while back because two obstinate townies with a scummy play style tunneled on each other all the way to lilo.

If that's not what you're asking, then I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[Chuck Shurley]

Claiming my vote is OMGUS is utterly absurd, Clark.

[Chuck Shurley]

You also nearly side stepped the fact that you and Blurry/James nearly side stepped any associations in D1, for good or ill.

[Chuck Shurley]

Neatly, not nearly. Also apparently I like to repeat myself. Anyway. Point stands.

Grandpa, Clark did too.

[Chuck Shurley]

Grandpa: It sounds like you're assuming Clark would go after you if he were actually scum, but I'm not grasping why you're making that assumption.

[Chuck Shurley]

If you're asking if I believe there's scum between me and Clark...obviously?

In short: I am confused. Please clarify.

[Chuck Shurley]

At first glance (I read 13-ish pages in about 5 minutes) I did read him as town because it seemed like he was game solving. I read deeper, realized I didn't like the direction his posts were coming from, and changed my read. If he does something to change that, you'll all hear about it, but right now I'm not sure what the point of asking me to town read my scum vote is.

[Chuck Shurley]

I am upset I didn't replace Wayward Son.

@Chiuck I asked why you said this and I don’t believe you answered me?

It was a Supernatural reference.

SPN's theme song is Carry On (Wayward Son) and my name and pfp are a direct reference to a pivotal character from the show.

[Chuck Shurley]

I'm sorry I haven't been able to be more active; I have a specific window when I can play Mafia, and unfortunately it's proven to be not enough. Anyway, since I am at E-1, I'm VT so my role isn't going to save me, and I can't check back in until either late tonight or tomorrow morning real time:

Reads-

Unless Nancy is *incredibly* good at scum theater, she's town.
My eyes tend to glaze over Grandpa's posts, but he seems town driven, if a little confused in how he goes about it.
Y'all seem to be reading T3 and Roden as basically lock town for reasons I am not grasping, but since I was town reading them for my own reasons, I'll keep it where it's at.
I still think Clark is scum, but Val is rapidly moving up the list.

Y'all are falling for an easy mislim and it's driving me batty, but I just plain don't have time to shove the tide back so...better me than a PR, and you can get un-stuck in D3.