Newbie 2070 - Airplanes | GAME OVER

[ClarkBar]

VOTE: Vote: Nancy Drew 39

The first 38 were bad news, I'm sure #39 is no different.

It's been a minute since I've played, I'm happy to join you all!

[ClarkBar]

Please tell me this isn't a game where half the players flake out....

You mean like a normal game? Things will get going eventually.

[ClarkBar]

Hi. I'm new to the game and I'm not really smart either, so please bear with me.

T3 referred to this already, but it does stick out and since nobody is posting I want to mention that I don't find this kind of self-deprecation to be reassuring or in town's favor.

@LunarRest: In what way are you stupid? Are you referring to specific misplays in other games or just a general kind of idiocy?

[ClarkBar]

I confirmed shortly before I posted.

[ClarkBar]

Can we try and work as many airplane and flight related puns as possible into this. I think there's nothing better than the smooth landing of a well delivered airline pun.

No pun allowed.

I take from this that if you are going to use puns in your posts you need to use more than one.

[ClarkBar]

finally i found a non awkward vote for RVS.

i rlly hated to vote T3 after psyche voted them

Sure, it's soft wagon, but how intentional do you believe this is?

[ClarkBar]

VOTE GrandpaMo

Let's make a circle with everyone

pointing their guns

voting a unique member! Though that's probably not helpful for town. Also, what happens if we all vote a unique person and it stays that way at the end of the day phase? (I mean, one vote on everyone) Would the lynch be randomised?

and the paranoia of dumbtells have started.....

Between the lack of a response to my question (20) and the oddness of 37 I looked at Lunar's brief post history. They have a unique posting... style.

[ClarkBar]

Hey, I need my hand held here a little.

finally i found a non awkward vote for RVS.

i rlly hated to vote T3 after psyche voted them

You wanted to vote for T3 but didn't because Psyche already had? Is that right? If so why did you want to vote for T3 and what about Psyche's vote prevented you from doing so?

The conclusion is my favourite part of the OP. I get it if you’re a newbie but from an SE, it’s incredibly funny.

What is this referring to? Post 28?

VOTE: GrandpaMo. i agree wagons are better

I like wagons too. Is this vote for the sake of a wagon or something else that I missed?

VOTE: GrandpaMo

i agree wagons are better

LOL thats actually funny -- i might just townread u off this

What's funny? Has everybody played together in the past? References and reads based on other games aren't super helpful. Or maybe I'm missing what is right in front of me! Who knows!

[ClarkBar]

He isn’t playing extremely differently here from the game I miselimed him in so I’m wary.

I hate this. Why move my vote? E-1 is fun!

VOTE: GrandpaMo

[ClarkBar]

I'm so nervouss should I just unvote

Nervous about what? A quickhammer? Why even make this a question?

[ClarkBar]

And what’s so unique about my posting o.O

Whether it's intentional or not your posts never seem serious. Like you're not playing to win, but instead being a personality. That's not necessarily a critique.

[ClarkBar]

To answer your question, I don’t think I’m smart generally speaking.

Either this is an affectation or you need to love yourself a little more.

[ClarkBar]

Nervous about what? A quickhammer?

um yes!
this is a newbie
what if someone in this game is insane??

Then we get them out of here before town is stuck with them in a Lylo situation. Or the hammer hits right and we have dead scum and a likely confirmed townie. You said you like wagons, so here we go. If you're actually nervous about the state of the game then go ahead and unvote. Why check in?

[ClarkBar]

It's as if Psyche voted him so that Grandpa can confirm him or suggest that he is town because Psyche wanted to get a wagon going (if I haven't misunderstood). It looks like they were trying to distance each other, as if they aren't mafia together early but now that the wagon is going decently strong (3 votes). And the whole post saying that he's nervous and asking if he should unvote feels weird too. Why is Psyche pretending or atleast appears to pretend like he doesn't know what to do? If he thinks the wagon is rash why not just unvote? Why ask others?

Hey! You may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but you aren't stupid.

[ClarkBar]

i love playing wit t3 -- gosh, i know this is so random but i feel like t3 is the msot limmable person in MS and

i am the only one who knows their allignment and they know mines

.

What do you mean by this?

[ClarkBar]

I don’t know what to make of Mo here. In the game we played together, he was actually upset by scumreads on him. Here, he

acts like he doesn’t really care

.

Kinda seems to be a theme of this game so far.

He’s the lead wagon at E-1 and he seems to be totally fine with it. Why isn’t he even trying to put up more of a fight?

He's memeing.

[ClarkBar]

Do we want him to claim?

t3 is the msot limmable person in MS and

i am the only one who knows their allignment

and they know mines

.

Before a claim I want a clear explanation of this.

[ClarkBar]

Let me reread a little.

[ClarkBar]

also -- its because i thought this whole push on me was a meme.

but ig its not?

I was asking for clarity on this earlier in the game and nobody provided it. It seemed like inside jokes/things not be taking seriously. I know this is a game, but especially in a Newbie it's nice when things are clearly communicated.

can ANYONE give me a reason they scumread me?

Psyche gave you additional reasons for his vote making it no longer an RVS vote. I decided to switch my vote to you mostly because I was unsettled by what I felt was a defense of your odd behavior by Nancy. Also, I like early E-1's. They give a lot of information and IMO are well worth the low risk of a quickhammer. I would say that reactions from you, Psyche, and more notably Nancy have been worth it.

Let me sum up how I see the progression of your wagon. You initially misread the suspicions of Psyche and T3 because you thought they were just fucking around despite them explaining that their votes were real. You do acknowledge this in 46 but your defense involves somewhat explaining your town-reads and then self-voting. When I put you at E-1 you kind of run through the sequence of events but don't offer a real defense. You do post that you

know

what T3's alignment is and that he

knows

yours as well. Either that is you saying that you and T3 are scum or that you are both...masons? Your explanation for this is that you can read T3 so that is how you know he is town. If this is true your first post was

very

poorly worded. If T3 knows your town why is he (eagerly) on your wagon?

[ClarkBar]

Just some thoughts on how things shook out after Grandpa was put at E-1.

1. Kinda repeating myself here but I'm a little thrown by Psyche asking if he should take his vote off Grandpa. That decision is up to him, the act of asking the rest of us seems like clumsily taking an opportunity to demonstrate how pro-town he is.

2. I actually kinda like the response from Grandpa. He's stubborn and unapologetic.

3. Nancy is interesting. After early-game fluff posts she has spent most of her energies admonishing Grandpa for his style of play and informing us early that this is how he has played in the past and was miselimed as a result. It was largely this post that pushed me to vote for Grandpa. I fully and correctly expected Nancy to vote me as a result. I guess my vote was ick. From a town perspective I used to feel the same way regarding early E-1's. So on the one hand Nancy could have town's best interest in mind in trying to prevent an easy mark from being eliminated. On the other she's a frustrated scum who is trying to steer her partner out of a wagon and telling town that the behavior of her partner is nothing to worry about. I think at the moment that I lean towards giving Nancy the benefit of the doubt but it's real close.

4. T3 seems...gleeful about Grandpa's position.

[ClarkBar]

Wrt to Mo, I miselimed him in a past game.

What game is this? When I look at your topics and Grandpa's topics there are no other common games besides this one.

[ClarkBar]

Why do you think I was confused? I thought this whole thing was a joke that everyone had went along with starting with LunarRest.

I was the one confused. I made a post asking for people to explain what was going on because I was getting lost. It seemed like everyone knew each other and had inside references that were impacting this game in a way I wasn't fully grasping.

I actually had thought it was a semi-real vote with just the other real part being it to gauge reactions and with the main part it being to joke along with Lunar, this was also emphasized stronger with T3's vote. I had already explained everything about what Psyche has said. Town usually questions -- I never expect a quick vote to E-1 ( I bring a point later on)

Got it, thank you.

See, I never knew this. You haven't gave any explicit scumread, you just expected me to assume that's what you meant by that earlier post you made to Nancy. But now you have told me, that is YOUR scumread. Also I don't think it was a defense on my end -- It was just me reiterating stuff I had already said -- since there was literally no new info at that time.

Yeah, I was suspicious of your behavior but I wasn't pushing a scum case. I more wanted to see how you and Nancy would react. I used to dislike early E-1's (in my first game I was furious over it) but have come around on them. I understand they aren't popular, but quick hammers are rare, and if it does happen that's a huge red flag on the person responsible. It's a risk, but it can really open things up. I understand your criticisms of the idea.

Yes, because there was no scumcase. There were no reasons for a defense.

Understood. Thank you for this post, it was helpful.

UNVOTE: GrandpaMo

[ClarkBar]

Understood. Thank you for this post, it was helpful.

Can you explain how?

It was clearly written and addressed a multitude of issues. It gave me a really good insight into your thought process and decision making. The point of my vote on you has been met. I think you are kind of a null to very light town read, and certainly shouldn't be at E-1 any longer.

Hey, who do you think is the likeliest scum on your wagon? I know my pick. That said, it would be hilarious if both slots that haven't posted yet are scum.

[ClarkBar]

i know these games don't have ICs anymore and it's a bit patronizing for me to type it this way but i'd like to see fewer people sitting on not voting
if every player

just sits on the sidelines until someone makes some clear scumslip

this could be as far as we get contentwise

to do the bare minimum

to keep the game flowing, just figure out your best hunch for who's scum,

try to articulate as clear a reason why as you can

, and lay down a vote to show you mean it

You have been "ambivalent" in both your position and the reasoning for your vote. Your vote is on Grandpa. Be articulate about that vote and show you mean it.

[ClarkBar]

I already have articulated the reasoning for my vote.

And I take it your reasoning still stands? Nothing else has come up or changed since 40, 43, or 44?

And I don't think there's anything wrong about being clear about how strongly you're committed to a vote you're making.

I'm so nervouss should I just unvote

You ultimately did not unvote. So I guess you are committed. So, bring a case.

It would have been ridiculous for me to suggest that I thought I'd found scum on page 2 or 3 or whatever

So what are you committed to?

[ClarkBar]

wait is this just me indirectly taking responsibility for getting us out of RVS and bragging about it???
ok sorry yeah i can do better than that

Oh ugh. Ok, you're right. My vote should be somewhere.

VOTE: Psyche

[ClarkBar]

o

QFT

[ClarkBar]

imo you should also make an effort to clearly justify the vote with some reasoning
do whatever though i'm not your dad

Fair. Perhaps the most important thing I should never do is drink and post. I'll keep my vote though.

1. While you did provide reasoning for voting Grandpa it was thin. Acceptable, but thin. Whether or not to keep your vote on Grandpa when he got to E-1 based on your reasoning is up to you. Asking the town what you should do struck me as disingenuous. It felt like feigned concern while you had no intention of removing your vote. I may be wrong, but that is how it seemed to me.

2. When I iso you I don't see much in terms of contribution before 151 which was indeed a little patronizing but that's cool considering your experience. It bothered me for other reasons. Yes you got on a wagon with a reason, but you never really followed up from there. You describe the wagon as "the best wagon" but never engage with Grandpa. You don't ask him any questions or try to explore what is happening in with his wagon.

3. You only unvote when I unvote. You don't refer to any specific action by Grandpa or anyone else.

I feel personally responsible for the E-1 he celebrates a paragraph earlier.

How so? By virtue of being the second player on the wagon?

On another note we are at over 72 hours with only 7/9 reporting. That kinda feels bad.

[ClarkBar]

aw man i posted too much no one is taking note of my blurryx read

I liked it!

[ClarkBar]

It reminds of this and I wanted to mention it earlier but got sidetracked.

@Clarkbar

Contributing more of substance than the others. I buy his reasoning for putting someone to 4 votes, as has been proven, it is a good way to provoke discussion, which gives more information to work with. I don't think there's anything I want to specifically highlight in his posts, he seems to be asking questions and sharing his thoughts, but I don't think there's anything I can see that tells me anything about his particular leanings.

One thing that did strike me was in

Don't leave me hanging!

[ClarkBar]

This is why pushing people to vote is counter-intuitive. If Clark had voted without your pushing him to do so, I could actually reasonably evaluate that vote but because he did it only because of your urging, I really can’t. :/

I want to address this real quick before I get to the disagreements Nancy and Val are having. I think it is important to have your vote somewhere as much as possible, and to have the reasoning be as solid as possible. Obviously that latter part can't happen early in the game, hence RVS. I believe our votes are important tools and not using them isn't in the best interest of the game. My reaction to 151 was more that it felt like an unsolicited pro-town message that dovetailed with 67 to make Psyche feel a little LAMIST for my tastes. So my vote on Psyche is not because I was pushed by anybody. I like having my vote in use, and Psyche is higher on my scumdar for reasons I've brought up. You are free to evaluate the vote.

[ClarkBar]

Regarding the alt thing. I was annoyed that Nancy used a past experience with Grandpa to defend/justify the gameplay style they were using that got them to E-1 fairly quickly but then decided to not disclose the game in question. I wanted to skim that game for similarities to this one to get a better read on if what Nancy was saying was true and informed this game and Grandpa's play-style better. Why bring it up if we can only take her word for it? It felt to me that Nancy was advocating for Grandpa during his push and that pinged me so I wanted to explore their past relationship/interactions. Ultimately I was too lazy to sleuth the game out, and I wasn't motivated to bother Nancy about it. Seemed like a dead end. I will check out the link provided by Val later.

[ClarkBar]

I am also a little unhappy with this reference:

We still have a confirmed slot that hasn’t yet posted.

(SNIP)

I think until we hear from WS, I don’t want to assume more than one yet.

I am aware the WS slot is the slot I've replaced into, and her RVS vote is on my slot, but there is most certainly TWO slots to which the above applies, but only one gets a mention. What about the brookewyrm slot? Is there a reason Nancy fails to draw attention to that one, despite it being natural to refer to having 2 AFK slots at the time?

I am pretty unconvinced that only referring to one of the two slots that hadn't posted is all that AI. I also don't think that what was snipped from 146 at all twists or misrepresents what Val is trying to get at. I appreciate when people only quote what is relevant to their argument/point. If people went around quoting the entirety of other player's posts the thread would be dreadful to read.

Doing this running commentary on the spat between Nancy and Val and watching the temperature rise between them is interesting. Clash of personalities? Something doesn't seem organic here.

[ClarkBar]

Now we're talking! I have no idea why Blurry got ignored after Psyche made their analysis on them.

VOTE: BlurryX

Blurry isn't being ignored. Psyche said nothing wrong. Analysis was correct. I'm wary.

[ClarkBar]

Can you reword that a second time? For clarity?

[ClarkBar]

I'll reword that. The analysis didn't get nearly as much attention as it should have. It reads like someone saw their buddy get scum read and redirected attention onto somebody else.

I should have been less flippant. It got the attention it deserved. It was not dismissed, least of all by myself. Can you clarify the last sentence?

[ClarkBar]

aw man i posted too much no one is taking note of my blurryx read

Now we're talking! I have no idea why Blurry got ignored after Psyche made their analysis on them.

I'll reword that. The analysis didn't get nearly as much attention as it should have. It reads like someone saw their buddy get scum read and redirected attention onto somebody else.

Wait and ye shall receive.

[ClarkBar]

Like, am I just reading it wrong, or is there just miscommunication going on between them?

Doing this running commentary on the spat between Nancy and Val and watching the temperature rise between them is interesting. Clash of personalities? Something doesn't seem organic here.

I don't want to be overly paranoid, but we got quite a bit out of very little.

[ClarkBar]

I was sick today, mild head cold and I'm rebounding. Being sick in the summer is the worst.

Quick question to newcomers (and welcome!) how do you feel about the dissolution of the Grandpa wagon and the quick reforming of the James/Blurry slot?

[ClarkBar]

discursively

Not to be insouciant but help me with "discursively".

[ClarkBar]

I do think it's interesting that Psyche has been the backbone of both wagons. I don't know their meta, are they usually so wagon-happy?

I haven't moved my vote for a reason. That said, T3 was on both wagons at specific stages. He votes on both wagons when it is safe, and urged a claim from Grandpa. Like I said, he was eager. After I remove my vote from Grandpa the wagon fell apart.

Why did it fall apart? What reasoning was given for abandoning that wagon? Who left that early E-1 wagon and for what

specific

reasons?

[ClarkBar]

Who's confused?

[ClarkBar]

I can tell you with some degree of certainty that Psyche is town.

Certainty? How so?

[ClarkBar]

I'm rereading. Life got busy/shitty for me late D1 and then a hammer.

[ClarkBar]

Jut some thoughts...

Nancy is town.
I am town (I know that part isn't very helpful)
T3 is very likely town.
Roden slight town lean.
Grandpa Mo I still very slight town lean. Blurry endorsing his wagon in 131 helps me with that. I don't like the end of D1 as far as they are concerned though.

Val? At least they had a vote down at the end of D1.

Chuck Shurley? No vote at all D1. Think about that: Chuck never voted. Scumreads Blurry but doesn't vote. "It was just one post" I know. But during the James/Nancy throw down (which replaced the Val/Nancy throw down) there is no input. Throws out a lot of town-reads, which I can relate to. 410 is a big post with no real takeaways. I went from painfully town to a scum lean, I guess for jumping off the Grandpa wagon, which I thought I was pretty clear about.

So initial E-1 wagon on Grandpa was purely town-driven provided Chuck is town. Even then it was a RV. Whether or not the James wagon purely town-driven is the question I guess.

I like having my vote somewhere.

VOTE: Chuck Shurley

For not voting D1, not weighing in on James at all (he only ever mentions Blurry), and not pursuing his SR of me.

[ClarkBar]

For not voting D1, not weighing in on James at all (he only ever mentions Blurry), and not pursuing his SR of me.

how willing do u want an elim on chuck today and if they flip town, we condemn u

If I were 100% on Chuck being scum I'd take you up on that. As it is I feel that slot is the best place for my vote for the reasons provided. We can debate that reasoning, and as that debate goes on how sure I am about whether or not Chuck is scum will go up or down.

[ClarkBar]

131 - Blurry does a wishy-washy read on Clark that gives them plenty of space to slide into whatever read of Clark is convenient later.

That's how I feel about your suspicion of me. You go from repeatedly town-reading me to saying I'm leaning sus. That's fine, I get that reads change as things go along. But the reasoning didn't feel thought out to me. I was very clear about why I placed my Grandpa vote and why I removed it. I wasn't being pressured to do so.

131James town reads Clark, but only indirectly (333 and 363). He otherwise doesn't offer reads on Clark, and barely mentions him. He does (again) indirectly town-align Clark in his comment to me in 403.

Ok? To be fair James was scum and in a spat with Nancy for most of the end of D1 and I wasn't posting much.

131Clark barely mentions Blurry- he "liked" Psyche's read on them (180) but offered no further commentary, and then quoted Blurry's comment on him (131). He doesn't follow up at all, except to ask this: 342

Which he also doesn't follow up on. In fact the next time he mentions James at all is D2 when he's casting doubt on me for reasons that are negated by the fact that I stated clearly that I had to "stop for now" and that I hadn't finished my reads, and the events he's referring to happened while I was gone.

Blurry had one substantive post. I liked Psyche's critique of it, but I was also suspicious of Psyche and wanted to engage him more. Plus I suspected Blurry wasn't coming back and was waiting for a replacement. I did ask Blurry a question about that post but he never returned. Rodan responded to 342 and I followed up to that. I thought the dissolution of the Grandpa wagon was interesting, but in the end I guess that's just me. Ended up not mattering.

131In summary: Blurry's post is meh, but James was throwing suspicion around like candy while he was here, and Clark has been active enough that it's notable he didn't catch any from James. Clark was asking questions and poking around, but didn't respond to anything James said, when he absolutely should have if his questions were genuine.

So your case on me is that James didn't come at me? That James didn't respond to a question that was not specifically for him?

What I cannot defend is that my activity dropped near the end of D1. I do have to own that, and it looks bad. I was sick and had other life stuff and my engagement with this game dipped. When I checked in here and there I was met with another Nancy fight with entire posts being quoted, an odd T3 post, and then boom D1 ends. I had to read much of the end of D1 (mostly the claim stuff) this morning for the first time. Bad on me, sorry. At least I had a vote placed on a slot I thought was suspicious.

And that is my issue with you. You threw out mild reads on D1 but never placed a vote on either of your scumreads. When you do finally place a vote on D2 it's essentially an OMGUS vote. I just don't think your case on me is strong enough to characterize your vote any other way.

Basically...vote Clark and get the job done.

And the certainty in this sentence feels wrong.

[ClarkBar]

I clearly stated I still had work to do before adjusting all my reads, and the day ended before I could get back to do that.

Since my read on Blurry was correct and I've nitpicked multiple places where Clark's posts don't make sense from a town perspective, this is where I'm staying.

I appreciate being busy, but you had time to place a vote especially after having given scumreads. You just didn't want to commit.

I don't appreciate you taking credit for having a correct scumread when you weren't on the wagon or really pushing that slot in a meaningful way. And if your "nitpicking" my posts is a reference to 410 then I have to say that is a pretty weak sauce.

[ClarkBar]

Claiming my vote is OMGUS is utterly absurd, Clark.

Is it? I don't buy your logic for voting me. Nothing had really changed since you initially gave me a scumread (other than me moving my vote to you), so why vote me now?

You also nearly side stepped the fact that you and Blurry/James nearly side stepped any associations in D1, for good or ill.

I addressed this specifically. I can't speak for James, but my guess is that the fact that he replaced into a scum slot that already had pressure combined with dealing with Nancy consumed his attention. I wasn't on his wagon, and I wasn't really posting at all during that period for reasons I explained.

You say you were busy too. The difference between you and me is I didn't scumread Blurry. I was more interested in Psyche (I never said I was good at this game) and so

that's where my vote was

. You gave a scumread of both myself and Blurry, but did not place a vote. You also didn't pursue your suspicions. A scumread of yours was a leading wagon and was posting profusely, and you never chimed in.

[ClarkBar]

I scumread blurry because their one real post felt like posturing -saying one thing,

such as "this is town" then subtly undermining that assessment in the following sentences—up to and including null-reading my slot but still strongly casting doubt on motive.

However, it was just one slot, I have no insight into how they play or if they've played before, and that could as easily be insecurity as it could be scum.

This is a good way of describing how I feel about your progression on me in 410. I don't care that your opinion of me changed, I care that it's not super clear as to why, and most importantly that you didn't pursue the issue with me. I feel that having me go from "painfully town" to "leaning sus" in one post requires more explanation than you give as well as some follow-up questions for me to respond to. Maybe even a vote!

Instead you give a couple of scum leans without voting or pursuing further and you do not vote. Blurry was on the chopping block so lightly distancing him makes perfect sense. You need an alternative scum lean in case Blurry got out of his predicament, and my actions on the Grandpa wagon must have seemed like something you could latch onto. But again, no follow-up or vote on me. I believe it was, like you say, posturing.

[ClarkBar]

Late D2 I had real reservations but I didn't have time to make a meaningful post.

Reservations= I had real issues with Chuck and felt that was a good place to start. I was worried that the back and forth between me and Chuck went completely ignored. Was my case against Chuck any good? Was it bullshit? Were the counterpoints brought up by Chuck worthy of discussion? We got none of that. There was discussion about PoE. D2 was lazy and I'm part of the problem.

711 is all you would really need to know. I don't know who scum is, but I wish I had unvoted earlier when I saw a wagon grow without anyone give a clear reason why they were voting Chuck over me.

[ClarkBar]

Since the game's just slowing to a crawl here, can I ask everyone to give an updated reads list?

Nancy: If she is scum then she deserves the win. Town.

Grandpa: I don't know. I really liked his response to his E-1 wagon. Since then his posting has been confusing. It's so scummy it... isn't scummy?

You know, "push the narrative" is such an unfortunate choice of phrase.

Coming from you, Grandpa, it may well be NAI

, but you don't half make this difficult for us.

It's quite a meta to cultivate if it's intentional. I can't make a town case for Grandpa outside of his reaction to the D1 wagon.

Roden: The first on the James wagon (according to VC's, but I think Psyche voted that slot first). Still, that would be a

hard

bus, as he pointed out. Didn't bite on the Chuck wagon. Very likely town.

Val: Hammering James is the right move as a scum partner. The wagon was clearly not going away, so it's best to end the day before James inadvertently gives something away as well as benefiting from being on the wagon. I haven't Iso'd Val. I think the early back and forth with Nancy wasn't great for me reading Val. Every time I see the hat avatar my eyes automatically glaze over. Without doing a lot of homework I can't make a town case for Val.

Clarkbar: The towniest townie whoever towned.

I'll say it again: D2 was absurdly lazy. People are unmotivated/overburdened with other games. Kinda sucks. D1 was 25 pages of discussion, multiple wagons, and real attempts at solving the game which resulted in scum being eliminated. D2 was 4 pages of speculation on claims and PR's. I have never been scum before (which is getting nuts) but when it happens I sincerely hope the town spends their efforts on setup/role speculation.

I was wrong on Chuck, but I had real and valid reasons for my vote. I engaged and argued those points with Chuck. I feel I am the only person in this game that provided specific reasoning for my vote on Chuck. I became deeply concerned that people joined the Chuck wagon without really discussing my reasons or Chuck's defense. Tuesday was a busy day and I didn't have time to make a meaningful post. It was on my mind to unvote, and I wish I had made the time to just quickly do that. My opinion of Chuck hadn't changed, but I was uneasy about how his wagon was forming.

The Chuck wagon: I am town. T3 was town. Val and Grandpa? Scum is one of those two. Nancy says she won't vote for Grandpa, but I don't immediately recall why. I'll reread that bit before I place a vote.

[ClarkBar]

Also notate that Val, and I believe Clark had scumread Blurry as well and so that makes you scumreading them more NAI.

Nope, I appreciated Psyche's critique of Blurry's 1 real post, but I didn't scumread Blurry.

Also for the second part is not true, you could have done the same Clark done and scumread Chuck out of no where and find yourself to explore a scumspot.

Not sure what the last bit is supposed to mean, but I can help you with the first part. I would invite you to read virtually any of my posts on D2. That will help you understand my reasons for scumreading Chuck. It wasn't "out of nowhere". If you are town and want to win this game I urge you to bring a little more effort.

[ClarkBar]

Nancy says she won't vote for Grandpa, but I don't immediately recall why. I'll reread that bit before I place a vote.

Ok, because Blurry endorsed the Grandpa wagon.

For now I think keeping Grandpa as the lead contender for the guillotine is the right move, as they do have an erratic posting style that may cause confusion later in the game, but hopefully there is something more substantive to base a day 1 lynch off of in the next few days, and we haven't yet heard from the two AFK players.

While this can be a distancing tactic or a recognition that Grandpa could be a huge liability due to "erratic posting style" I can buy this as good enough reason to believe Mo is more likely to be town than not at this point.

VOTE: Val89

[ClarkBar]

omg i read chuck as clark this whole time . this changes something ima explain in a few

Did you explain this? I'm confused by it. Also, what is the significance of 778?

For not voting D1, not weighing in on James at all (he only ever mentions Blurry), and not pursuing his SR of me.

how willing do u want an elim on chuck today and if they flip town, we condemn u

If I were 100% on Chuck being scum I'd take you up on that. As it is I feel that slot is the best place for my vote for the reasons provided. We can debate that reasoning, and as that debate goes on how sure I am about whether or not Chuck is scum will go up or down.

I want to know how Clark feels about this statement now that Chuck did flip town. They seemed not to be sure, and was thinking other options at that time perhaps. Actually who did you think Chuck was scum with clark?

This also confuses me. Nothing about my original statement was affected by Chuck's flip. I wasn't 100% that he was scum, but he was my chief scumread for reasons I repeatedly provided. Who do I think Chuck was scum with? Chuck was not scum, but if he were then he would have been scum with James. Because James flipped scum.

[ClarkBar]

For the record, while I will maintain that 131 is enough to hold me back from voting Grandpa, I don't think it is as strong as others do in putting Grandpa firmly in town territory. If you read around that post you'll note that the actual threat of a hammer was fairly low. In fact I unvote Grandpa directly after 131. There is a decent enough chance that Blurry made a darn good play before bowing out.

I share Val's concern about Lylo. If Grandpa is scum then the pool (Me, Val, Chuck) is a train wreck.

[ClarkBar]

Town:

lunar

val clark

psyche nancy

everyone else: everyone else.

Interesting that he’s got 3 of these correct.

He has at least 4 correct.

[ClarkBar]

T3 being the NK last night seems very, very odd to me.

So what does the choice tell you? Who has constantly been discussing PR's, been confused by claims, and came into today under the impression that T3 was a tracker? Whose choices have been erratic and unconventional? Val, your question here is may be you as scum gloating a bit. I have heard that surprise/puzzlement over a NK is a mild scumtell, but I don't think this is the case in this instance. I've been wrong all game, so who knows.

Screw this. Yes, 131 is compelling but I have to go with my gut here. My vote on Val is pure PoE. The mountain of scummy stuff from Grandpa overwhelms what Blurry said on page 6.

UNVOTE: Val89

VOTE: GrandpaMo

[ClarkBar]

I was saying at that time that you weren't 100 percent sure. So you must have had a back thought that he was town MAYBE for x and x, that means you had a backup scumread just in case they were town. correct?

634 may be helpful for you. Yes, I had a back thought that he was town. No, I didn't have a backup scumread. It was the beginning of the day and Chuck had the most points against him (in my view) for me to explore.

because that's usually how it is for me when I am not 100 percent sure on my scumread, I explore the thought that person could be town and explore why this person is town and that makes x scum etc.

Of course. My chief issues with Chuck was the lack of a vote despite having scumreads as well as the nature of his scumreads. Why was that a problem that made me not be 100% sure Chuck was scum? There wasn't much time for him to finish his reads before D1 ended. However, with the absence of much else for me to work with that left me pursuing Chuck as a start to D2. I did not anticipate his elimination coming in just 4 pages or so.

[ClarkBar]

Since when is surprise/puzzlement over an NK a scumtell? It’s usually town indicative at best and NAI at worst.

I recall it being used against somebody (maybe me!) by an SE after a puzzling NK. I think there was a term for the tell and maybe a wiki that was linked about it. I kinda agree with you about how strong a tell it is, but it stuck in my mind.

[ClarkBar]

I'm going to harp on the Chuck wagon again because scum is on it and it went too fast and I don't feel votes were justified.

Vote #1: Me for reasons I discuss all D2.

Vote #2: T3. No reason provided, but he was town so we can move on.

Vote #3: Val89. The end of 708 shows that there is a scum pool that Val is picking from, and he picked Chuck. Why? Because my argument was strong? Because Chuck's defense was weak? In 714 Val bolsters his reasoning for voting Chuck...

I think the likleyhood is 90% that it is between you and Clark. My vote is on you, and I think you should flip first, because I think there is a slightly higher chance it is you over Clark, but it's a close call.

but unless I missed it I am unclear why there was a higher chance (in Val's mind) that Chuck was scum over me.

Vote #4: The hammer is courtesy of Grandpa. He asks permission to hammer but never receives it before doing so. 732 is odd. Quotes Val about a topic unrelated to Chuck while hammering Chuck. Grandpa also never really mentions the arguments I made against Chuck. Grandpa does ask Chuck to make a town case for me, and when Chuck understandably (and reasonably) declines that appears to be the strike against for Grandpa, though Grandpa doesn't vote at that time. 701 is reasonable, but is essentially aping of part of my existing argument against Chuck.

I am aware I'm the likely elimination today, so I want to bring up as much stuff that is running through my mind as possible, and that includes which vote is the most opportunistic between Grandpa and Val.

[ClarkBar]

It was pretty late into the day and you already had tunneled him. You also should have been awared that there were multiple people scumreading them at the same time. Heck, I even thought chuck was scum and don't know why they flipped town.

I thought you were more townier than chuck in the case. And chuck's vote makes it an omgus. We literally agreed on that part.

I think "tunneling" is a little unfair considering there wasn't much of an opportunity for me to explore other possible scum candidates. Late in the day? The day had just begun.

You are right that Chuck wasn't doing a spectacular job defending himself, and his OMGUS vote was exactly that, so you are right there as well.

Goddamit. Well, I'm at E-1 and we can't have me and Val in the game together going forward. I am vanilla, so I can go.

[ClarkBar]

Ok. My last vote switch. I promise. Provided some hug slip, of course.

UNVOTE: GrandpaMo

VOTE: Val89

Regardless if I'm hammered or not I hope my vote will be on the right side of history.

[ClarkBar]

I'm almost entirely certain Val is town and I'll consider it scummy if anyone wants him or Nancy gone.

I must have missed your explanation for this, I apologize. Why are you almost entirely certain Val is town?

So I'm really torn between Val and Grandpa, as my voting and posting demonstrates. I think that you should all just eliminate me. I'm widely scumread (not sure why) and that's cool. I'll be an issue going forward, and it feels like arguments are going in circles at this point. Plus I'm just vanilla, so no harm no foul. Obviously it would be preferable to get scum today, but Grandpa has 131 going for him, Val has Roden's (almost) certainty that he is town, and I have nothing. I think my play and how the wagon on Chuck went goes strongly in my favor, but that is apparently just me.

I won't vote for myself out of principle, but beyond that I don't think I have anything left to say.

[ClarkBar]

and how the wagon on Chuck went goes strongly in my favor,

Clark, would you mind explaining what you mean by this?

I feel like I already have. Maybe too much. It's not really meant as a defense at this point, but I feel I had the most valid vote on D2. Yes, I was wrong, but I presented clear reasoning and engaged with the person I had the strongest suspicion of. I believe in looking at how and why wagons form. I'm in the apparent minority that finds that exercise more valuable and town-friendly than PR/Setup speculation. So, if we look at the D2 Chuck wagon there is the current scum-pool plus T3 who was town and is gone. I feel (and this is of course subjective) that my vote for Chuck was proactive and intentional, and that I was actually scum-hunting even though I missed. On the other hand I feel that you and grandpa voted with a shrug. My vote was the least opportunistic by a hefty margin.

[ClarkBar]

Do you think roden can be scum??

Oh for sure. But paranoia isn't going to be helpful here. For Nancy to be scum would be such an achievement it may not even be appropriate for a newbie game. For Roden to be scum would require a hell of a bus job. Also it would mean that Roden was able to avoid the Chuck wagon all together and luck into a really lazy effort by town on D2. Those two slots don't make sense given how the game has shaken out. Is it impossible that Roden gambled on a hard bus job, got lucky with Chuck, and is currently giving Val a strong town read in order to have a Lylo to his liking? Not at all. Is that scenario something I think is wise to act on? No.

But I have been wrong all game.

[ClarkBar]

Also @Clark why do you say you have nothing, when I see an apparant possible towncase for you?

Can you tell me why you are town?

Like I said, you have 131 where proven scum endorsed your wagon. That's points for you. Val has Roden in their pocket (or vice-versa maybe) due to their spat with Val being "so TvT it hurts" and 708. You can debate the value of both of those reasons, but the point is there is nothing specific to distinguish me as town to anybody. I can point to my general play, especially D2, but that's it.

You have a towncase for me? Bring it! Why are you voting me? Why aren't you voting your suspicions? You keep talking about "pushing narratives" and PR's etc. but I haven't seen you convincingly scumhunt all game.

[ClarkBar]

UNVOTE: Val89

VOTE: GrandpaMo

Ok. My last vote switch. I promise. Provided some hug slip, of course.

Eliminate all liars? Go for it! I can't do this anymore. Grandpa is just a bubbling cauldron of scumminess and I'm done giving him a pass because that's just the way he is. I'm a man of principal, maybe to a fault, and Grandpa is too much. Exploring PR's and just nakedly following the path that town is giving him and declining to make efforts to pursue clear scumreads is just awful.

@Grandpa: If you are town please stop saying "pushing the narrative". Unless you are Morgan Freeman talking about penguins a narrative implies a story. Hence a creation. You have consistently just gone with how you percieve the wind is blowing.

[ClarkBar]

It's 100% in ClarkBar, GrandpaMo; but I'm really struggling to decide who is the best chance of just start up ending the game today.

I think it's clear there is no PR now. We've all come out and talked today, and nobody has a claim - I was trying to soft that I might have a PR role at the end of D1 and into D2 in order to try and maybe draw the NK, but I'm VT. If there was a PR, its either FN, and one of the slots is conftown and should have gotten that message to a breathing slot by now; or it's a tracker, in which case they should have cleared at least one slot, if not two, by now as well as being conftown themselves; and the nobody has come out to clear slot mechanicially when that would help us a lot right now. I would treat any PR claim henseforth with a HUGE pinch of salt, particulary if it came from Grandpa.

If there was a PR, then T3 dying in belief that maybe he was actually tracker and it was the claim-retraction was false makes a bit of sense, but if there is no PR, then his death must have been for another reason. T3 is the biggest risk to a scum!Grandpa, as Grandpa himself has been open about since D1, so I think T3 death makes scum!Grandpa a bit more likley.

Then again, no PR means Grandpa's apparent PR hunting on D2 wasn't scummy. Why would scum PR hunt when they know there is no PR? That makes scum!Grandpa less likley.

So yeah....fuck.

Ok, I caught up on reading posts, but I'm gonna reply to this specifically because I had a plan but realized it might backfire if we get today's vote wrong and I don't get NK'd.

I am the Tracker. I town locked Val today even though I was suspicious of him yesterday because I checked him on Night 2 and didn't get a hit. With one scum left and the other PR dead, I know he is 100% confirmed town. That's why I've been so adamant about him being town and threatened to vote anyone who tried to push him.

I tried to bread crumb this but I got scared no one was catching on. The plan was to let my role flip and my town reads lead you guys to victory tomorrow if we get it wrong today, which is also why I'm pushing Clark and Grandpa. But I realized if Nancy ends up being the NK instead I'll just make ELo chaotic if I wait until then to out myself.

I'll clarify now though that I haven't tracked Nancy, my town read on her is literally just a town read. If she's scum then GG but I seriously doubt she is after everything that happened on Day 1.

My Night 1 track was T3 btw. I partially did it because he fake claimed Tracker, but I also bread crumbed that I was going to in my introductory posts.

I'm going to do a really good Roden read at some point.

Everyone should trust whatever read T3 has on me, the past four out of five games I've been in have now had T3 in it, and he's personally seen my scum playstyle in detail.

Unless he's scum of course. T3's way more of a wild card than me lol, so

idk if I'll have a strong read on him until probably Day 2.

His posts feel town so far though. I didn't like the Grandpa wagon but it didn't feel like he was grasping at straws to justify it.

This is why I had a weird reason for town reading him Day 2. I knew he was town and just had to latch onto something to make sure he wasn't getting elim'd. I was actually worried I was making my crumbs too obvious, but with Psyche CC'ing James and T3 taking the bullet for Tracker I thankfully didn't die.

I believe Roden and I put my vote in the right slot. If Roden is speaking the truth this should be a sure thing whether or not I'm eliminated today or not.

What a fucking relief, if true. I'm not going to push against this claim.

[ClarkBar]

Sorry for quoting, not sure how that happened.

[ClarkBar]

If someone wants to counterclaim me, please do it so we can make the game easier.

So, it should be GG then. Nancy is town, I agree 100%, I am mechanically confirmed town; so scum is in {Clark, Grandpa}. It doesnt matter which order we lim them in, right?

Correct. It's what I've been trying to lead us to.

Why not say so earlier? I mean you did in so many words, but what would have been the harm in revealing this earlier?

[ClarkBar]

The plan was to let my role flip and my town reads lead you guys to victory tomorrow if we get it wrong today, which is also why I'm pushing Clark and Grandpa. But I realized if Nancy ends up being the NK instead I'll just make ELo chaotic if I wait until then to out myself.

Nevermind.

[ClarkBar]

So the game is essentially over. Vote me or Grandpa, doesn't matter. Vote Grandpa though for a quicker resolution.

[ClarkBar]

Clark, unless you have a crazy strong case against Nancy, I don't see how you're not the last scum. I'm not auto-voting you because it's possible you do have a case against her, but I'll be honest, it's gonna be an uphill battle.

I don't have a case against Nancy, at least nothing compelling. Somebody bussed, and the best I can do is go back and try to pinpoint which of you two are the likeliest to have done so. I actually forgot (having never been scum) that scum can communicate during the day. I will reread with that in mind.

I am aware that unless I can convince the person who I think is likeliest town to vote with me (and if I'm right) this will be a scum win.

Full credit to scum, a beautiful bus job, and a very nice D3. You have to admit you

did

get lucky on D2 by having only 4 pages of discussion and being able to completely able to avoid the Chuck wagon.

Ok, I'll do a little rereading and make a guess about which of you is scum, just for the heck it.

[ClarkBar]

Why didn’t you get a result last night? How is that even possible?

Unless I'm going crazy we are in either A2 or C2.
If we are in A2 then you are the mafia role-blocker and you blocked Roden.
If we are in C2 then Roden took a risk and falsely claimed tracker.

Either way he is going to get "no result" because you role-blocked him, or he is going to say that he got "no-result" to imply that you role-blocked him. I feel like considering your experience you should know this? This is off to me.

[ClarkBar]

Because everyone seemed to agree yesterday that I was telling the truth, and I know for myself that I am town. I'm fairly certain I can prove it too.

You can

prove

it? What better time than now to give that a shot?

Ok, I read a bunch. Nothing earth-shattering.

If

Roden is scum he got on the Blurry/James wagon nice and early when his partner wasn't really posting and had only Psyche pushing him. When James replaced in no other viable wagon was emerging, so if you're gonna bus then that's a pretty good situation to do it in. Sit back and enjoy the ride while having a luxurious spot on the wagon.

If

Nancy bussed she got on a little later to give the E-1 vote. It was an OMGUS vote after James voted her for relying on meta. Then they have their back and forth. The question is: when it became difficult to steer the James wagon somewhere else did they plan and execute a bit of (very good) theater in order to give Nancy the town-crew she has so enjoyed? If this is the case I think it worked to have the vote from Nancy to be semi-OMGUS as it promotes a heated back and forth. Again, good theater.

That's kinda a coin flip for me, but I have to give the edge to Roden for continually championing Psyche's original argument early and often. Additionally I think I'm leaning to believing Roden's claim. For Roden to be lying he would have had to begun his breadcrumbing in 850 and 858. Could scum just as easily do this as town? I suppose, but it's an early risk for Roden to take when there was no pressure on him. And as I said earlier we are in one of 2 setups. Scum!Roden would have had a 50/50 chance at not being CC'd by Nancy or myself when he claimed. This is a risk I am unsure they needed to take to end D3, Grandpa was scumming it up and I was just behind him on the chopping block.

Ok, that was likely all for not, but I wanted to share my thoughts. I would just vote for Nancy here, but I'd like to see rebuttals etc.

[ClarkBar]

VOTE: Nancy Drew 39

If I’m wrong I am sorry. I didn’t want to be in this position. I just don’t have a great reason to disbelieve the tracker claim. Gambling on A2.

[ClarkBar]

Fuuuucckkkkk

[ClarkBar]

Well played Roden. Sorry town.

[ClarkBar]

God that feels bad. I was wrong at every step of this game.

[ClarkBar]

Thanks Clark. This was honestly a terrible spot to be in for town and I don't envy what I put you guys through.

I really wanted to be the elimination yesterday. Then Grandpa (no shade) really just made such a damn good case against himself.

This game may not be for me. What a progression. Suspect and vote the jail keeper, get sick near the end of D1, initiate a wagon against town D2, bite on grandpa (I couldn’t imagine scum wasn’t on the D2 wagon) and shit the bed D4. My shame knows no bounds.

[ClarkBar]

Sorry Clark, I didn’t mean to be so hard on you but if you had just not rushed this, we might possibly have won.

Gg Roden, James. First time on this site I have been miselimed on my main.

Honestly if you had a strong rebuttal to the points I made about why I leaned Roden over you as town I wish you would have made them. I felt your responses to my posts were along the lines of "please don't I'm town" which is not as compelling as an uncontested and totally plausible PR claim. Roden was right to paint them as a little AtE. I'm sorry you feel I rushed it.

[ClarkBar]

Nancy, I'm sorry I made the wrong pick, but you don't need to be so toxic. None of the posts you made at the end led me to believe I was going to get anything from you other than you just telling me you were town and saying that any suspicion from me towards you would confirm me as scum in your eyes. What do you want me to do with that? You scum-read me over Roden and Roden "scum-read" me over you. I felt you were doing nothing to sort, just whining about being miseliminated again and asking meaningless questions that had obvious answers.

Maybe getting into fights with anyone who disagrees with you, quoting entire posts, and getting mad about people not diving into your meta while also referring to a game but not letting people read it is a problem. I am the most obvious person to blame for the outcome of this game and I've owned that. You continually throwing shit at me for it is childish and it is behavior like yours that can make this game unpleasant. I will be sure to request replacement from any game I may be in with you going forward.