Newbie 2070 - Airplanes | GAME OVER

[Roden]

Hello everyone. I see quite a bit has happened already, I'll try to catch up as quickly as I can and get some posts in.

[Roden]

Really not liking this flash wagon attempt on Grandpa at the beginning. Also really hope that Lunar eventually starts actually playing the game at some point.

[Roden]

VOTE: GrandpaMo

i agree wagons are better

LOL thats actually funny -- i might just townread u off this

First Psyche votes Mo and then Mo says that he might townread Psyche off this. And then Psyche says that he's nervous and asks if he should just unvote after it looked like the wagon was going strong on Mo.

It's as if Psyche voted him so that Grandpa can confirm him or suggest that he is town because Psyche wanted to get a wagon going (if I haven't misunderstood). It looks like they were trying to distance each other, as if they aren't mafia together early but now that the wagon is going decently strong (3 votes). And the whole post saying that he's nervous and asking if he should unvote feels weird too. Why is Psyche pretending or atleast appears to pretend like he doesn't know what to do? If he thinks the wagon is rash why not just unvote? Why ask others?

Oh yep, they definitely start playing lol. Interested to see if this line of reasoning ends up going somewhere because I kinda agree with this.

[Roden]

Blurry popping in mid thread just to post a not-actually-reads reads list and then disappearing again feels bad. I understand they're busy but this added nothing to the game.

[Roden]

I'm going to do a really good Roden read at some point.

Everyone should trust whatever read T3 has on me, the past four out of five games I've been in have now had T3 in it, and he's personally seen my scum playstyle in detail.

Unless he's scum of course. T3's way more of a wild card than me lol, so idk if I'll have a strong read on him until probably Day 2. His posts feel town so far though. I didn't like the Grandpa wagon but it didn't feel like he was grasping at straws to justify it.

[Roden]

Yeah, that’s right, please do a metadive on me and if you still double down after that, I probably have a pretty good idea where my vote will go.

If you weren’t a newbie, I promise I’d already be voting you for the two obviously untrue misreps.

RED FLAGS

I hope Nancy's responses to Val get better because this just feels like a SE throwing their weight around.

[Roden]

Nancy, do you think you could explain the "alt thing" for us? Because even after reading through the thread I'm not sure what in particular it's referring to at this point beyond the fact an alt exists. I feel like the argument has morphed this bit into something unrecognizable, to the point where you and Val might not be arguing about the same thing anymore.

I also don't like that you're refusing to engage with someone just because they're pressuring you. I don't think Val is being toxic here, they're just pushing on you hard and you haven't really addressed much of their read on you. If you're town, you should want to defend yourself and prove them wrong, not ignore them.

[Roden]

she doesn't need to explain the alt thing.

it should be self explainable -- its not that hard to understand.

she townreads me because i am playing the same way i played in a game where she was scum and mislimmed me in.

that game she was on an alt.

and i probably know who she is talking bout -- nd can confirm this did happen.
val and nancy were just going bout either side triumph regarding all that i just epxlained above and it go no where.

yall r both town anwyays

Nancy should explain it enough to clarify the situation so everyone can be 100% on the same page. She doesn't need to go into full detail or out the alt.

[Roden]

she doesn't need to explain the alt thing.

it should be self explainable -- its not that hard to understand.

she townreads me because i am playing the same way i played in a game where she was scum and mislimmed me in.

that game she was on an alt.

and i probably know who she is talking bout -- nd can confirm this did happen.
val and nancy were just going bout either side triumph regarding all that i just epxlained above and it go no where.

yall r both town anwyays

Nancy should explain it enough to clarify the situation so everyone can be 100% on the same page. She doesn't need to go into full detail or out the alt.

didnt she do that already like 4 times

I thought she did, but again, not everyone seems to be on the same page atm and Val could be talking about something else involving the alt. I think it's more likely there's a miscommunication than scum intent in regards to this.

[Roden]

Town: lunar val clark psyche nancy
everyone else: everyone else.

Grandpa/Blurry scum team then. Solved game gg

[Roden]

Real talk, Blurry's posts suck and they're coasting hard while everyone else fights each other over a whole lot of nothing.

[Roden]

Now we're talking! I have no idea why Blurry got ignored after Psyche made their analysis on them.

VOTE: BlurryX

[Roden]

Now we're talking! I have no idea why Blurry got ignored after Psyche made their analysis on them.

VOTE: BlurryX

Blurry isn't being ignored. Psyche said nothing wrong. Analysis was correct. I'm wary.

I'll reword that. The analysis didn't get nearly as much attention as it should have. It reads like someone saw their buddy get scum read and redirected attention onto somebody else.

[Roden]

I'll reword that. The analysis didn't get nearly as much attention as it should have. It reads like someone saw their buddy get scum read and redirected attention onto somebody else.

I should have been less flippant. It got the attention it deserved. It was not dismissed, least of all by myself. Can you clarify the last sentence?

I think more attention was put on an argument that was full of miscommunications instead of on an analysis that made some good points. Reading the last few pages, I seriously don't think Nancy vs Val should've gone on for as long as it did.

Like, am I just reading it wrong, or is there just miscommunication going on between them?

[Roden]

I want to sincerely apologize if I’ve either upset anyone or made them uncomfortable. @Val89, you absolutely did not deserve those last couple of posts from me. I’m just extremely frustrated that I keep being continually asked to defend what I view as a blatantly obvtown post - repeatedly but I feel bad because this is the newbie queue and I shouldn’t be holding newbie players up to unfairly high standards, so again, I’m extremely sorry and regret that.

Man, just as I was starting to comfortably scum read you, you had to go and post this. Backing off like this is such a townie move I'd almost consider it a town slip. I say almost because an experienced player could convincingly fabricate a town response like this, and I still stand by what I saw as red flags. But I feel better just sorting you as "town lean who had miscommunication issues with Val" for now and moving on. There's no universe where you should be up for elimination on Day 1 anyway.

[Roden]

Also, can we get a prod on Blurry? They haven't posted for the past couple days now.

[Roden]

he has been

Oop

Backing off like this is such a townie move I'd almost consider it a town slip

I wasn't going to comment on it because I thought it was self-evident on it's own, but did you read that as something other than "sorry you are so stupid Val, I shouldn't have expected you to play good like us SE slots." I can only assume there was a very surface level reading if it was taken as an actual apology.

Is there something townie about that?

Yes, what you described is exactly why I think it's a townie reaction. A lot of SEs are kinda predictable in newbie games, at least from what I've noticed. Arrogant/cocky/aggressive SEs have a town tell where they either get sweaty and try to solo solve the game, or they recognize they're getting too sweaty for a newbie game and back off. If they're scum, they're just manipulative because they believe they can easily trick newbies (which they actually easily can).

Nancy here seems to fit the mold for the type of SE I'm describing. If she were scum she wouldn't continue to be hostile to you while backing off, or reiterate how frustrated she is and specifically explain why she's frustrated. It could be AtE admittedly, which is why she isn't confirmed town for me. But I don't see how continuing to push the issue here could sort her further or progress the game in any way.

[Roden]

Regarding Roden post 236 is what makes me think he should have / would have voted Nancy.

Why would I vote Nancy during my catch up posts? I already explained why I town leaned her before a wagon could even start anyway. I don't have to vote someone just because I'm trying to sort them.

[Roden]

I was sick today, mild head cold and I'm rebounding. Being sick in the summer is the worst.

Quick question to newcomers (and welcome!) how do you feel about the dissolution of the Grandpa wagon and the quick reforming of the James/Blurry slot?

The Grandpa wagon looked bad the moment I saw it lol. Like, idk how you guys let him get to E-1 so quickly, which makes me think scum was on it. I'm liking the pressure on Blurry/James though. I think James is already making better posts than his predecessor at least, but I'm still on board with keeping this wagon going.

I do think it's interesting that Psyche has been the backbone of both wagons. I don't know their meta, are they usually so wagon-happy?

[Roden]

I can tell you with some degree of certainty that Psyche is town.

Certainty? How so?

Wait...

T3, if you're doing what I think you're doing I'm gonna laugh my ass off so hard.

[Roden]

It's the single-minded intensity. I'm far from a mafia veteran and I haven't played any mafia at all in forever, but when I WAS playing, scum *loved* shit like this because it got Town arguing among themselves and took the heat off them.

Meh, I don't see it that way. I appreaciate scum love it if it TvT, but that fact alone isn't a justifcation why it must be TvT here. Sure, if we are TvT I am sure scum are pissing themselves laughing at us, but it isn't something scum get to invoke or control at all, and just because it might seem 'single-minded' I don't think that can identify it one way or another. I would hardly expect scum to just roll over and be "eh, fair enough, you got me".

In fact, the single-mindness of it may well indicate that I (and everyone else) have fallen into exactly the trap a theorectical scum!Nancy intended us to. The whole focus has been on the 'alt thing', and how me and Nancy ended up 'arguing' about it, and we seem to have forgotten (me included, in fact), that the 'alt thing' was only a small, and frankly not all that important, part of what pinged me as scummy about her in the first place. James has picked up in more detail in 370 what I was trying to express in my first paragraph on 192.

I do still think it's odd, but I am happy to entertain the idea that I am wrong about the alt thing, and the stuff about the two afk slots as being NAI (I admitted it was weak in isolation in the post itself), and I still think there is enough in the odd-ness of Nancy's play and posting upto then, and in her reaction, to say there is good cause to scumlean her slot regardless.

I've stated why I think her reaction was scum-indicative rather than an abrasive TvT reaction a few times, but I am worried other town may well have glossed over it and the clear scumpings have just been lost in the noise; so I'll post a couple of snippets from that reaction I think sum up why I am concerned. I am aware Nancy will complain I'm quoting relevant parts, rather than the whole posts, and probably try screaming I'm misrepresenting her by doing so, but if I do so then eyes will glaze over again, so sod it. If you see the issue, you can go and read the whole posts you so know I'm not trying to pull a fast one on anyone here.

We have 6 days and

I only vote when I feel confident about it.

If you weren’t a newbie, I promise I’d already be voting you for the two obviously untrue misreps.

However, you’re wanting to metadive me actually looks townie

so hopefully you don’t butcher that as well.

Actually I kind’ve like this.

I’m going to lean wrong town for now

but if he continues to misrep my posts, that will change.

VOTE: Val89

I’m really getting irritated with your attitude. Do better.

Very next post:

I don’t even have a read on you

but I feel like you’re trying to bully and intimidate me with your tone

This is a bit more convincing than the last thing you tunneled on. However, I can't help but feel like this is just an attempt to get Blurry/James slot out of the hot seat by trying to bring focus on someone else. There's a chance it's genuine and you're actually on to something with your suspicions on Nancy, but James jumping on this line of thought gives me bad vibes.

At this point, I'm inclined to believe there's at least one scum between the three of you.

[Roden]

T3, if you're doing what I think you're doing I'm gonna laugh my ass off so hard.

If he

is

doing what I think you think that T3 is doing, do we think that scum don't already think that he was doing what I think that you think that he was doing, and thus we should probably confirm one way of another?

I don't think you know what I'm referring to lol.

In Newbie 2065, T3 and I were scum, and he fake soft claimed a Masonry with someone who was about to be mis-elim'd on Day 1 in order to carry them on to be mis-elim'd on a different day. T3's "degree of certainty" is giving me really similar vibes. If he's ballsy enough to do a similar play right in front of me, then I'll laugh because that would be such a T3 thing to do lol.

[Roden]

@Roden is your 429 implying you think me and Val89 are scum partners?

Potentially, sure. It just looks a little too convenient to me. Val doesnt seem to think it's suspicious that you're sheeping their scum read on Nancy. And I don't think Nancy is scum due to the analysis I gave earlier. I could be wrong on all counts, I suppose, but a lot of this is based on Blurry's terrible tiny ISO. I think your predecessor just screwed you over unfortunately.

Well, I was assuming a town!T3 doing it, but essentially yes, that's what I thought was going on here, although obviously not with the goal of avoiding a lim, since I don't figure the Psyche slot is in a huge amount of danger at present.

It feels a little icky to drag it into the light as overtly as this, but I figure if it's obvious to two players, the chances are it's already being discussed in the mafia PT, so it perhaps won't do much damage to talk about it.

Oh I'm sure mafia noticed it. What's weird is that I don't understand why town!T3 does this. Like, yeah, Psyche isn't in danger, so why soft a Masonry here? And why make it so obvious?

This time I actually have a good reason for tring Psyche. Same logic aplies to Val andClark..

Quad Masons?

[Roden]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=31062

This is total bs and I actually think you might be scum here and possibly with Psyche with your interactions.

Have I just solved the game?


VOTE: James

I think Val is actually sincere.

Wait, why Psyche? They were the first vote on Blurry.

[Roden]

Nancy, you're panicking like someone who is in hammer range. Pretty sure James is getting elim'd today at this rate.

[Roden]

Nancy, you're panicking like someone who is in hammer range. Pretty sure James is getting elim'd today at this rate.

I’ve been miselimed before. In Timeshift, I had 3 votes on my slot and handled that completely differently. Want to guess how that turned out? I got run up and 2 days later the slot that correctly hard tr me also got miselimed.

So being chill about viotes only got me miselimed,

Wait are you at E-2? I thought someone unvoted. If not then ok this is valid.

I'm having a hard time following what you find fishy about my reads around you nancy but I think we're just reading the situations differently. I think the case against you is not very good, but I will not rule out the possibility that you're scum. I can see why a position like that might seem opportunistic for scum, but it's also what I'm sincerely feeling atm. I sure wish I could put that one emoji right here. The one with the shrugging.

Why does scum!me voice concern about a possible miselim on Mo, unless you actually think we’re buddies , what possible scum motivation could I possibly have?

And if anyone is going to claim some kind of bs towncred, then I ask why would I have even needed that since no one was even sr me at the time. I’m asking you Psyche, if you’re town to explain the scum motivation in ANY of my posts.

Hate to bring up T3 in 2065 again. But this is actually exactly what he did in that game. He was a top town read yet still saved a townie from E-1 on Day 1 by making a meta case for them (as well as fake softing Masons). So I wouldn't rule that out here.

[Roden]

In any case, I'm inclined to stick to my current reads. Nancy shouldn't be today's elim over James.

[Roden]

I'm so embarrassed. I've been referring to the wrong game the entire time lmao. 2066 Gelato is what I've been referencing, sorry everyone.

[Roden]

Meta is valid ^.

What is this in response to?

[Roden]

It was a sarcastic comment regarding 500 I apologise.

Oh. Uh ok.

It was a sarcastic comment regarding 500 I apologise.

I’m voting you because you refuse to click that link which 100% disproves your entire case on me. And @Roden. I’m town, so if I’m miselimed D2 or any day, I’m still 100% flipping town.

Well I mean, I don't expect you to say otherwise lol. But I'm not really worried about D2 tbh, and you shouldn't either if you think James is scum. The only reason you should be worried is if you expect him to flip town despite your vote on him. Because if he flips scum I don't see anyone accusing you of scum theater with him and then bussing him. That would make zero sense no matter anyone's perspective on what happened.

[Roden]

Just rechecked the votes, there's only two votes on you right now Nancy. Psyche is considering you but they still have their vote on James. Speaking of which...

James is at E-1. The next vote will hammer.

[Roden]

There's a 2/3 chance scum know my tracker claim is fake. I retract it.

It's pretty obvious you all were just trying to cover for Psyche. Who counter claims Doctor with Tracker in this set up? Lol. Psyche pretty blatantly sacrificed themself here, the counter claim sealed their fate unfortunately.

Because I didn't die the setup is probably 2 goons.

Psyche's counter claim meant they either had to be Mason, Jailer, or the true Doctor. In any of those cases, scum has to kill Psyche first in order to kill either a confirmed townie or to stop them from protecting anyone who claimed Tracker. Psyche was just the obvious kill last night.

I guess one person today would know if we have a Friendly Neighbor. And if a Tracker exists they're probably sweating bullets. Assuming two goons and one PR is probably the best way to play out today though so no one gets accidentally outed.

[Roden]

look
i just thought it over real hard and decided i couldn't let james get away with such a bad claim
if he flips town then god that sucks and i accept all blame if the town loses
but in the end mafia is about having fun and i live for the thrill

James found my tracker crumb.

ok i hope this clears everything up -- im the real doctor.

and james is scum. i was tryna buddy up wit james so i can see who their partner is.

i crumbed in post 91, 49, in post 250, i wanted to use that "vc" pagetop to refer not to votecount but to the vena cava which is a popular vein found in the heart -- so yes im a doc

You're all terrible liars lol.

[Roden]

val i need ur input asap.

Is there something specific that you want me to comment on?

I currently still think you are town, despite the fake claim. I suspect I know why you fake claimed, and if so, you know why I am asking you this question in the manner I am. I am doing a dive on something right now; unless there is something specific you want answering, I will get back to you once I have conclusions to share.

ok so at first i wanted to fake claim for the exact same reason t3 did but then you told me to shutup and stuff and i rlly thought u were tryna soft a doc claim here.

so i would die at night -- then you would claim doc the next day just in case

I'm not sure I follow the logic here. Why would Val claim Doctor on Day 2 in this scenario?

[Roden]

For not voting D1, not weighing in on James at all (he only ever mentions Blurry), and not pursuing his SR of me.

how willing do u want an elim on chuck today and if they flip town, we condemn u

Now I understand the page 2 wagon on you.

[Roden]

For not voting D1, not weighing in on James at all (he only ever mentions Blurry), and not pursuing his SR of me.

how willing do u want an elim on chuck today and if they flip town, we condemn u

Now I understand the page 2 wagon on you.

ok let me reiterate what i was tryna say here -- i was trying to push the narrative that there is scum in clark and chuck.

i was reaction posting to see what clark would say and how willing they would say yes or no. i believe town won't be that hesitant and wont find a way to fluff around the my question. if they were scum. clark would take this oppourtunity to pin point me as scum or someone else because they know the answer to that question is not that willing because they know they will flip town.

I don't think that kind of gambit works in this situation. On Day 2 with one scum left, the final scum has equal reason to both play aggressively and play cautiously. Hesitance is NAI at this point because scum

knows

they are in enough of a precarious situation that town will look for hesitance in players. If anything, we should look at who was hesitant to vote James, as they started looking more and more scummy as they started flailing towards the end of Day 1.

Also, don't really like that you're admitting to trying to push a narrative. I tend to scum lean anyone who goes for open wolf strats or anything that's so overtly anti-town like that. Like, I don't know how this is supposed to help us sort you.

[Roden]

Like, am I just reading it wrong, or is there just miscommunication going on between them?

Doing this running commentary on the spat between Nancy and Val and watching the temperature rise between them is interesting. Clash of personalities? Something doesn't seem organic here.

I don't want to be overly paranoid, but we got quite a bit out of very little.

This doesn't confirm him as town, but this post made town lean Clark yesterday and makes me feel better about it after James' flip. It feels like we were both on the same page, and if he was James' scum partner I feel like he would've dismissed my post instead.

[Roden]

Also want to throw in that I feel like it's safe to town lock Nancy. James vs Nancy didn't read as scum vs scum to me at all.

[Roden]

val i need ur input asap.

Is there something specific that you want me to comment on?

I currently still think you are town, despite the fake claim. I suspect I know why you fake claimed, and if so, you know why I am asking you this question in the manner I am. I am doing a dive on something right now; unless there is something specific you want answering, I will get back to you once I have conclusions to share.

ok so at first i wanted to fake claim for the exact same reason t3 did but then you told me to shutup and stuff and i rlly thought u were tryna soft a doc claim here.

so i would die at night -- then you would claim doc the next day just in case

I'm not sure I follow the logic here. Why would Val claim Doctor on Day 2 in this scenario?

Could you answer this too Grandpa?

[Roden]

To keep setup ambiguous from scum for at least one night longer, someone should go ahead and hammer.

Bullshit. Absolute bullshit.

Unless James is fake claiming, scum are the only one with the exception of the other PR who KNOW the setup, since doctor only appears once in each of column A and B. If they have a rolecop or roleblocker solves the setup completely for them.

No way Psyche didn't know that. Get this obvscum outta here, we can sort Nancy for sure tomorrow.

VOTE: Pysche

I'm rereading what happened at the end of Day 1 and this still sticks out as odd to me. Val, can you tell us your thought process here? You voted James shortly afterward when it looked like you picked up on Psyche's counter claim, but this vote and reasoning feels off.

[Roden]

val i need ur input asap.

Is there something specific that you want me to comment on?

I currently still think you are town, despite the fake claim. I suspect I know why you fake claimed, and if so, you know why I am asking you this question in the manner I am. I am doing a dive on something right now; unless there is something specific you want answering, I will get back to you once I have conclusions to share.

ok so at first i wanted to fake claim for the exact same reason t3 did but then you told me to shutup and stuff and i rlly thought u were tryna soft a doc claim here.

so i would die at night -- then you would claim doc the next day just in case

I'm not sure I follow the logic here. Why would Val claim Doctor on Day 2 in this scenario?

Could you answer this too Grandpa?

i already answered this in a earlier post-- i dropped it during the night, i realized i was stupid and forgot that mafia had known the setup, so it just served as a bait to reveal setup info.

unless somehow psyche wasnt jailkeep, and they decide to kill me for whatever reason, and i flip vt -- there would be a theory that val could still have claimed doc if we were in that setup

I'm just not sure why Val would claim Doc though? Psyche already counter claimed James at that point, so why would Val claim a protective role without any pressure or reason to do so? Even in an alternate universe where Val is the real Doc, why claim?

[Roden]

I'm just not sure why Val would claim Doc though? Psyche already counter claimed James at that point, so why would Val claim a protective role without any pressure or reason to do so? Even in an alternate universe where Val is the real Doc, why claim?

because wouldn't val just die during the night? if im claiming already and if im getting a intuitive thought that val is telling me to shutup because they were the doc, then im obviously going to keep my claim so i can sacrifice just for the sake of doc being alive. instead of pysche dying, val would have died if they claimed.

i also claimed to bait like i said then follow up wit val's actions but now it was to bait.

wait.

there is a possibility that the setup could still be tracker + jailkeep no?

it's just mafia hit jailkeep today nd mafia can hit tracker tonight

we know there isnt a doc, because mafia would have just killed me at night before killing psyche.

Yeah, we could have a Tracker (or a Friendly Neighbor), but I wouldn't pry anymore into that. Even if no one slips they're the 2nd PR, if enough people slip that they

aren't

, scum can use PoE to find the last one. It's best not to bring it up unless necessary.

I think I understand your thought process better now though. It's a little chaotic, but I get it.

To keep setup ambiguous from scum for at least one night longer, someone should go ahead and hammer.

Bullshit. Absolute bullshit.

Unless James is fake claiming, scum are the only one with the exception of the other PR who KNOW the setup, since doctor only appears once in each of column A and B. If they have a rolecop or roleblocker solves the setup completely for them.

No way Psyche didn't know that. Get this obvscum outta here, we can sort Nancy for sure tomorrow.

VOTE: Pysche

I'm rereading what happened at the end of Day 1 and this still sticks out as odd to me. Val, can you tell us your thought process here? You voted James shortly afterward when it looked like you picked up on Psyche's counter claim, but this vote and reasoning feels off.

Well, if scum bussed, it can only be Val because a bus wouldn’t make sense early wagon but Val was hardpushing me, so I guess that’s possible.

So, it has to be between those 3. I think you, T3 and Mo are all town.

Slight hesitance on Mo still but I mostly agree, yeah. Like I said, you're basically town locked for me, and T3 looks better than he did Day 1, since he was hopping around wagons a bit but he stuck to the one that flipped red. One of the four of us are most likely to get sniped each night, but I really don't think we can lose this game. With a scum pool of three and three days left to vote out scum, as well as a potential Tracker, this should be an easy game.

[Roden]

he was hopping around wagons a bit but he stuck to the one that flipped red.

there is a better reason to townread t3 here lol

Eh, if you're talking about the fake Tracker claim to protect Psyche, I don't really think much of it. It's risk free for scum since they obviously can't be night killed. All scum would do that if the meta really gave people town cred for doing that.

i just only disagree that val should be in the votepool. i think u roden is more iffy then val.

Wait, really? Do you think I bussed Blurry/James?

[Roden]

T3 fake hammered again lol.

[Roden]

Also, roden do you believe nancy is town?

I do, and I already made my case for why. For Nancy to be scum, James would've had to have tried to take her down with him. But their interactions didn't look like scum vs scum to me, so I'm fairly certain she's town.

[Roden]

Pretty sure rr = role reveal.

Grandpa, how many times do we need to explain that PR fishing literally only helps scum? It seems clear now that we do have a Tracker, otherwise T3's death makes no sense. But outing the Tracker is the absolute worst thing to do now unless they got a positive hit last night. In which case they'll just come forward on their own anyway.

What do we gain from outing a Tracker before they can catch scum?

[Roden]

It seems clear now that we do have a Tracker, otherwise T3's death makes no sense.

just read the second part, sorry for taking ur post out of context.

but how does that tell that we have tracker?

Why else does scum kill T3 after he just got accused of being a potential deep wolf and Nancy got town locked by basically everyone? Unless scum is just trying to lead us into believing they're PR hunting...that could be a possibility actually. But even then, Nancy would've been a better kill if we're in a 2 Goon or Friendly Neighbor set up.

[Roden]

It seems clear now that we do have a Tracker, otherwise T3's death makes no sense.

just read the second part, sorry for taking ur post out of context.

but how does that tell that we have tracker?

Why else does scum kill T3 after he just got accused of being a potential deep wolf and Nancy got town locked by basically everyone? Unless scum is just trying to lead us into believing they're PR hunting...that could be a possibility actually. But even then, Nancy would've been a better kill if we're in a 2 Goon or Friendly Neighbor set up.

isnt there like a 200 iq play where scum kills t3 because they want us to think there is tracker in the game? and so when push comes to shove... scum can easily claim tracker without a cc and have a better liability of staying alive?

this is probably unlikely tho.

I literally just said this in the post you quoted...

but wait if there were is a tracker, why didnt they kill t3 instead of psyche that night?

We already discussed this back on Day 2. Scum has to kill protective roles before they can kill investigative roles. In addition, Psyche was a guaranteed PR and he counter claimed a protective role, so of course he was going to die. T3 randomly claimed Tracker, which meant he wasn't a guaranteed PR. And Psyche would most likely protect T3 anyway, so targeting T3 makes zero sense for scum to do. Why target a Tracker when a Doctor/Jailer just successfully counter claimed scum?

[Roden]

NO I THOUGHT T3 WAS TRACKER. WHY DID T3 DIE AT NIGHT.


i think everyone should rr now!

Wait, Grandpa you literally just said here that you thought we had a Tracker lol. Why are you acting like it's weird for me to think there's a Tracker?

[Roden]

Erm... I am tracker.

Well congrats, you just made the Doctor get hammered. He isn't a Jailkeeper. Even if it was possible that he was telling the truth, you as a tracker should have known instantly that it could have been either, yet you somehow didn't.

It’s possible scum believed this. I don’t think Mo thinking this is weird.

wait james claimed doc not the other way around?

i keep getting that confused.

t3 claimed tracker.
james claimed doc
psyche claims jk
i cc doc

correct?

Psyche technically never claimed a specific role. He just counter claimed the Doctor claim and said his role made it impossible for James to be the Doctor.

Regarding the votes on me, one is a prod vote, Psyche's was something I unfortunately can't answer, and Roden seems suspicious.
233 feels like he null reads Blurryx here, 258 feels like he scum reads here. I just find it strange how he appears to have a case on Nancy, but when it doesn't cause a wagon he jumps onto Blurryx's. Scum lean.

While my predecessor did place his vote during the RVS stage, I think it was actually well placed unknowingly.
73 and 269 strikes me as rather hypocritical, it was addressed, kind of. I'm very curious why Psyche in 310 claimed he was being overeager. You agree with whom? I reread every post between 269 and 310 any a time and didn't see anyone bring up 269 nor comment on it. I honestly feel like this is a scumslip that was meant to be in the scum chat but they messed up.
As such my vote is staying here.

314 is scummy. The only reason to hide reasoning would be because you'd be outing a power role. This clearly isn't the case. You have a scum read and 2 nulls.

Nancy is null, her whole reasoning for town reading Mo is meta, that isn't valid in my eyes, most certainly not as a main justification.

My null read is

Nancy

, my scum leans are Roden and

Chuck

and my scum read is

Psyche

What do people make of this?

Looks like he put his scum partner in his town reads to me. Not particularly unexpected for Day 1.

[Roden]

Since the game's just slowing to a crawl here, can I ask everyone to give an updated reads list?

Nancy and Val are my current town reads, while Clark and Grandpa are my scum reads. I can explain this in further detail but I don't want to influence scum's reads, so I'll go into detail once everyone else posts.

[Roden]

I really need to hear fom Grandpa on what's in James' ISO that makes him think {Clark, Roden}.

yea i just came back with work...

expect like a complete analysis on james readlist on why i do expect its clark / roden in a couple of hours


tldr; this is manly based on james interactions with clark nd roden (the post that nancy pointed out of james) i noticed it from that and started quick skimming jame's iso and seeing their reads.

Oh, you actually are suspecting me. I guessed that was a typo because your earlier post said Chuck instead of Clark, and it looked like you were accusing Nancy of thinking that.

Either way, we've already been over this. For me to be scum I'd have to have hard bussed Blurry/James before the replacement even came in. Psyche had scum read Blurry first, but the wagon didn't start until I repeatedly kept bringing attention to Blurry and soft accused Val of trying to divert attention by arguing with Nancy. Even when James subbed in, I kept my vote on his slot and continued to pressure him.

It's not like I couldn't pivot out to another wagon either. Nancy had multiple people going after her and I'd already stated that I didn't trust Val's intentions at the time. If I was scum, all I'd have to do is completely ignore Blurry and help Val put pressure on Nancy. Literally all I'd have to do is shut up and James would likely still be in the game.

If you don't believe me, go look back at what happened. It starts around page 10 I believe. I specifically say that I think the early wagon on you was bad and that we should look more at Blurry.

[Roden]

I really need to hear fom Grandpa on what's in James' ISO that makes him think {Clark, Roden}.

yea i just came back with work...

expect like a complete analysis on james readlist on why i do expect its clark / roden in a couple of hours


tldr; this is manly based on james interactions with clark nd roden (the post that nancy pointed out of james) i noticed it from that and started quick skimming jame's iso and seeing their reads.

Oh, you actually are suspecting me. I guessed that was a typo because your earlier post said Chuck instead of Clark, and it looked like you were accusing Nancy of thinking that.

Either way, we've already been over this. For me to be scum I'd have to have hard bussed Blurry/James before the replacement even came in. Psyche had scum read Blurry first, but the wagon didn't start until I repeatedly kept bringing attention to Blurry and soft accused Val of trying to divert attention by arguing with Nancy. Even when James subbed in, I kept my vote on his slot and continued to pressure him.

It's not like I couldn't pivot out to another wagon either. Nancy had multiple people going after her and I'd already stated that I didn't trust Val's intentions at the time. If I was scum, all I'd have to do is completely ignore Blurry and help Val put pressure on Nancy. Literally all I'd have to do is shut up and James would likely still be in the game.

If you don't believe me, go look back at what happened. It starts around page 10 I believe. I specifically say that I think the early wagon on you was bad and that we should look more at Blurry.

That doesn't clear you as town. Just because you shoved attention to someone who you weren't even the driving force at that time, that doesn't make you town.

Are you not reading...? I was the reason the wagon actually started. Please fact check what you're saying because this is proven to be false.

Note that James scumleaned you.

Ok, and? What is there to infer from that? Because two other confirmed innocents were also put in his scum pool. Nancy was also his Null read, do you think that makes her scum as well?

If you're going to note something, you need to explain why it's noteworthy. You haven't explained anything though so far.

Also notate that Val, and I believe Clark had scumread Blurry as well and so that makes you scumreading them more NAI.

Ok, now I know you're either not actually reading or you're just scum. Go read starting at page 10, the order of events proves that you're wrong here.

Also for the second part is not true, you could have done the same Clark done and scumread Chuck out of no where and find yourself to explore a scumspot.

Uh, what? What does this even mean? And what does it have to do with what I said?

If you would have shut up, there would still have been the CC and hammer still would have still proceeded with or without your input.

...What? There likely would've never been a hammer in the first place without my input. The wagon literally didn't exist until I gave my input and voted Blurry. Psyche and Nancy both had multiple votes on them at the time and were mid-wagon before I said we needed to pay more attention to Blurry. Blurry only had one vote on them at the time.

Can you explain to me how it makes sense for me to be scum in this situation? In what universe does it make sense for me to see

two

easy mis-elim wagons to jump onto, and instead tell everyone we should vote Blurry who at the time was quietly coasting by? If I'm scum I'm literally just throwing the game in my opening posts. I don't understand how this makes me scum.

Can you give me why you are town not mentioning EoD of day one nor mentioning anything regarding your reads?

???

I didn't even say anything about the end of Day 1? You're the only one bringing it up. I don't understand why I'm not allowed to bring up my reads either. You might as well tell me to accept your accusation and stop defending myself lol.

Is it because your own reads and votes incriminate you? Because you didn't vote Blurry/James, and you hammered Chuck with a naked vote.

[Roden]

You guys terrified me with all these votes, I was worried someone was about to get hammered before I could finish catching up on posts.

Val, please don't self hammer, I genuinely don't think it's you. Nancy is town locked for me and your spat with her was so TvT it hurts.

Scum is between Clark and Grandpa,100%. I'm not voting Val and if Clark continues to push him I'll vote Clark today. I've been leaning more towards Grandpa as the game goes on but I'm convinced that any push on Val has to be scum motivated. I don't believe even Nancy votes Val in a F3 scenario and scum likely believes the same.

[Roden]

I'm gonna put it this way Grandpa. If you don't vote Clark, I'm going to take it as you need him in end game because you're scum. If you vote Val, I'll consider it a scum tell. It's up to you to interpret why I think this.

[Roden]

I'm gonna put it this way Grandpa. If you don't vote Clark, I'm going to take it as you need him in end game because you're scum. If you vote Val, I'll consider it a scum tell. It's up to you to interpret why I think this.

i dont get why u think this. this literally makes no sense.


so who ever i vote, you will scumread me regardless??? what anti town behavior shit is that

if you are town , you can't have that mindset because you will lock urself into never ending prophecy of bias.

you need to stop and then reread the game every time.

I didn't say that...

Can you please just read before you post? Literally every time I post, you grossly misinterpret everything I say or just flat out claim something I clearly didn't say. I have no idea if you're genuinely confused or faking cluelessness as scum.

[Roden]

you need to stop and then reread the game every time.

This is so frustrating to see you post lol. I've been begging you to reread because you keep getting things wrong, please don't project this on me.

[Roden]

If you don't vote Clark, I'm going to take it as you need him in end game because you're scum. If you vote Val, I'll consider it a scum tell. It's up to you to interpret why I think this.

u literally did what u are talking bout.


if i dont vote clark, meaning i vote val, you will scumread me.

if i vote val, you will consider it scumtell.

thats literally what u said

so who ever i vote, you will scumread me regardless??? what anti town behavior shit is that

You've already contradicted yourself here.

are you saying u will scumread me if i vote val because i dont wanna vote clark

and you will scumread me if i just vote val as scumread?

Yes, and I said this to Clark too. I'm almost entirely certain Val is town and I'll consider it scummy if anyone wants him or Nancy gone.

[Roden]

you need to stop and then reread the game every time.

This is so frustrating to see you post lol. I've been begging you to reread because you keep getting things wrong, please don't project this on me.

also this meant to be in the context of like if u have bias then you wil entually have to reread teh game and get different interpertations

This isn't bias.

[Roden]

I'm almost entirely certain Val is town and I'll consider it scummy if anyone wants him or Nancy gone.

I must have missed your explanation for this, I apologize. Why are you almost entirely certain Val is town?

Mainly this:

Val, please don't self hammer, I genuinely don't think it's you. Nancy is town locked for me and your spat with her was so TvT it hurts.

But also his explanation in 708 was incredibly sound. I was expecting a damage control post but everything he said sounded reasonable and added up according to his earlier actions. Most of all, he didn't get defensive, which I'd expect from scum who's back was up against the wall and couldn't afford to have attention on them.

[Roden]

It's 100% in ClarkBar, GrandpaMo; but I'm really struggling to decide who is the best chance of just start up ending the game today.

I think it's clear there is no PR now. We've all come out and talked today, and nobody has a claim - I was trying to soft that I might have a PR role at the end of D1 and into D2 in order to try and maybe draw the NK, but I'm VT. If there was a PR, its either FN, and one of the slots is conftown and should have gotten that message to a breathing slot by now; or it's a tracker, in which case they should have cleared at least one slot, if not two, by now as well as being conftown themselves; and the nobody has come out to clear slot mechanicially when that would help us a lot right now. I would treat any PR claim henseforth with a HUGE pinch of salt, particulary if it came from Grandpa.

If there was a PR, then T3 dying in belief that maybe he was actually tracker and it was the claim-retraction was false makes a bit of sense, but if there is no PR, then his death must have been for another reason. T3 is the biggest risk to a scum!Grandpa, as Grandpa himself has been open about since D1, so I think T3 death makes scum!Grandpa a bit more likley.

Then again, no PR means Grandpa's apparent PR hunting on D2 wasn't scummy. Why would scum PR hunt when they know there is no PR? That makes scum!Grandpa less likley.

So yeah....fuck.

Ok, I caught up on reading posts, but I'm gonna reply to this specifically because I had a plan but realized it might backfire if we get today's vote wrong and I don't get NK'd.

I am the Tracker. I town locked Val today even though I was suspicious of him yesterday because I checked him on Night 2 and didn't get a hit. With one scum left and the other PR dead, I know he is 100% confirmed town. That's why I've been so adamant about him being town and threatened to vote anyone who tried to push him.

I tried to bread crumb this but I got scared no one was catching on. The plan was to let my role flip and my town reads lead you guys to victory tomorrow if we get it wrong today, which is also why I'm pushing Clark and Grandpa. But I realized if Nancy ends up being the NK instead I'll just make ELo chaotic if I wait until then to out myself.

I'll clarify now though that I haven't tracked Nancy, my town read on her is literally just a town read. If she's scum then GG but I seriously doubt she is after everything that happened on Day 1.

My Night 1 track was T3 btw. I partially did it because he fake claimed Tracker, but I also bread crumbed that I was going to in my introductory posts.

I'm going to do a really good Roden read at some point.

Everyone should trust whatever read T3 has on me, the past four out of five games I've been in have now had T3 in it, and he's personally seen my scum playstyle in detail.

Unless he's scum of course. T3's way more of a wild card than me lol, so

idk if I'll have a strong read on him until probably Day 2.

His posts feel town so far though. I didn't like the Grandpa wagon but it didn't feel like he was grasping at straws to justify it.

This is why I had a weird reason for town reading him Day 2. I knew he was town and just had to latch onto something to make sure he wasn't getting elim'd. I was actually worried I was making my crumbs too obvious, but with Psyche CC'ing James and T3 taking the bullet for Tracker I thankfully didn't die.

[Roden]

If someone wants to counterclaim me, please do it so we can make the game easier.

So, it should be GG then. Nancy is town, I agree 100%, I am mechanically confirmed town; so scum is in {Clark, Grandpa}. It doesnt matter which order we lim them in, right?

Correct. It's what I've been trying to lead us to.

[Roden]

Should go without saying, but I didn't get a result last night. The NK was also what was expected.

Clark, unless you have a crazy strong case against Nancy, I don't see how you're not the last scum. I'm not auto-voting you because it's possible you do have a case against her, but I'll be honest, it's gonna be an uphill battle.

[Roden]

Why didn’t you get a result last night? How is that even possible?

Roleblocker. Jailer + Tracker means one of the scum has to be a Roleblocker, and in Newbie games they can kill and use their PR at the same time.

@Roden, why are you auto-assuming Clark would sus me > you? I find that curious.

Because everyone seemed to agree yesterday that I was telling the truth, and I know for myself that I am town. I'm fairly certain I can prove it too.

Should go without saying, but I didn't get a result last night. The NK was also what was expected.

Clark, unless you have a crazy strong case against Nancy, I don't see how you're not the last scum. I'm not auto-voting you because it's possible you do have a case against her, but I'll be honest, it's gonna be an uphill battle.

Why not?

If Clark were to actually do that, it’d be game over because then I would know for certain he was scum. Unfortunately for me, I very much doubt that’s going to happen. :/

Whichever one of you two is the last scum, I officially hate you for doing this to mr.

It would be dumb for me to auto-vote before even letting people talk. I've town read you for most of the game which is why I'm telling Clark he better have a case, because I don't really have one for you at all. But it's like, maybe a 5% chance you're a deep wolf, and I don't want to give you the quick hammer one post into Day 1 on the off chance you are scum. I'd get flamed so hard for that lol.

[Roden]

Because everyone seemed to agree yesterday that I was telling the truth, and I know for myself that I am town. I'm fairly certain I can prove it too.

You can

prove

it? What better time than now to give that a shot?

You've already said part of it here:

That's kinda a coin flip for me, but I have to give the edge to Roden for continually championing Psyche's original argument early and often. Additionally I think I'm leaning to believing Roden's claim. For Roden to be lying he would have had to begun his breadcrumbing in 850 and 858. Could scum just as easily do this as town? I suppose, but it's an early risk for Roden to take when there was no pressure on him. And as I said earlier we are in one of 2 setups. Scum!Roden would have had a 50/50 chance at not being CC'd by Nancy or myself when he claimed. This is a risk I am unsure they needed to take to end D3, Grandpa was scumming it up and I was just behind him on the chopping block.

As stated, I had no scum motivation to claim Tracker. In fact, in the scenario where I'm scum, I'd argue it just hurts me to fake claim here when I was already getting town read and had zero pressure. There was a precedent for Val to get voted out before I mechanically cleared him, so even if Grandpa still got voted out I could just NK Nancy and let you and Val battle it out since there was speculation that he was scum. It was even stated that I could've just went through Day 3 pocketing Val and easily won Day 4 by staying quiet. Instead, by claiming Tracker and clearing him, I ensured my "pocket" would have to get NK'd. If I'm scum, this only hurts my chances of winning.

Besides that, I actually bread crumbed much earlier in the game.

My Night 1 track was T3 btw. I partially did it because he fake claimed Tracker, but I also bread crumbed that I was going to in my introductory posts.

I'm going to do a really good Roden read at some point.

Everyone should trust whatever read T3 has on me, the past four out of five games I've been in have now had T3 in it, and he's personally seen my scum playstyle in detail.

Unless he's scum of course. T3's way more of a wild card than me lol, so

idk if I'll have a strong read on him until probably Day 2.

His posts feel town so far though. I didn't like the Grandpa wagon but it didn't feel like he was grasping at straws to justify it.

This is why I had a weird reason for town reading him Day 2. I knew he was town and just had to latch onto something to make sure he wasn't getting elim'd. I was actually worried I was making my crumbs too obvious, but with Psyche CC'ing James and T3 taking the bullet for Tracker I thankfully didn't die.

This is insanely dangerous for any scum to attempt Day 1. Maybe it's just my own bias, but I was scared this early crumb felt too obvious and that I might've outed myself early, and Val even mentioned it caused him to do a double-take so I don't think I'm just paranoid here. In the scenario where I'm scum and fake crumbing, I think that if any PR saw this and knew their own role contradicted my crumb, they could easily pressure me and get a wagon formed without even having to directly CC me. And keep in mind that scum doesn't know which Row we're in Day 1, only the Column, so even if you want to argue we might actually be in Column C, I'd have to risk getting my fake crumb caught by a Cop or either of the Masons. Yet, I crumbed

before

Psyche essentially outed themself as the Jailkeeper. I would've had no assurance that I was dealing with a solo Jailkeeper in this scenario.

Is it possible I made a ballsy move Day 1? Sure. But is it likely I do this in my introductory posts, and then immediately bus my scum partner when there was barely even any pressure on them, and

then

unnecessarily force my "pocket" to get NK'd on Night 3? Absolutely not. This is about as close to proving myself as town as I can get though, and I really don't think scum ever does anything I did in this game.

[Roden]

@Roden, who did you track, Clark or me? You never answered my question.

I tried to track Clark, it didn't really matter who I chose though because I was always going to be Roleblocked. I explained that here:

Why didn’t you get a result last night? How is that even possible?

Roleblocker. Jailer + Tracker means one of the scum has to be a Roleblocker, and in Newbie games they can kill and use their PR at the same time.

[Roden]

I really really didn’t want to be in elo because I didn’t want to be in this position where I would make the wrong decision. Instead I now think that based on Clark’s post, if he is town, then I might actually be the game losing miselim here for the second time now. The first time was on MU and there was actually a confirmed mason in that who wrongly instavoted me before I even had a chance to vote or even make a single post, so I thank the townie here for not doing that and throwing the game.

I know I am town and I just have to hope to God, I can make the other townie realize that it 100% isn’t me. I will not instavote no matter what because I absolutely want to make the right decision here but if the townie votes me, we will auto lose, so please don’t do that.

Nancy, I've already said I really don't think it's you, going by how the rest of the game went I'm just having a hard time believing you're scum. However, your posts admittedly look really AtE, and just yesterday you seemed certain scum was between Grandpa and Clark so I'm not sure why you're doubting that now. Waiting for me or Clark to vote first just makes it look like you're waiting for a quick hammer.

Do you think I'm scum here? Because you trusted me pretty much up until now, and you haven't presented a scum case against me or debated any of the points I brought up in my case for why I'm town.

@Roden, who did you track, Clark or me? You never answered my question.

I tried to track Clark, it didn't really matter who I chose though because I was always going to be Roleblocked. I explained that here:

Why didn’t you get a result last night? How is that even possible?

Roleblocker. Jailer + Tracker means one of the scum has to be a Roleblocker, and in Newbie games they can kill and use their PR at the same time.

Why do you think T3 died > either of us? After James tried to kill me, I fully expected to wake up to a “you have died” pm. I still don’t understand why this didn’t happen.

I thought we already answered this awhile ago. Scum knows what Column we're in, and with T3 claiming Tracker and then dying afterwards it makes sense that scum believed it since we're in Column A.

Night 1, Psyche died because they CC'd a protective PR.

Night 2, T3 likely died because he claimed Tracker and scum knew from the set up that there actually was a Tracker in the game.

Night 3, Val died because I mechanically cleared him as innocent. If scum kills me, they confirm that I'm Tracker and Val reaches ELo as a confirmed townie and you make it to end game while highly town read. If scum kills you, Val still reaches ELo as a confirmed townie and I make it to end game while highly town read. Scum 100% has to kill Val Night 3.

[Roden]

VOTE: Nancy Drew 39

[Roden]

Holy shit. I'm never going to be able to pull this kind of long con ever again.

Well played Roden. Sorry town.

Thanks Clark. This was honestly a terrible spot to be in for town and I don't envy what I put you guys through.

[Roden]

I also didn't really want to bus Blurry/James, but man everybody came off super townie Day 1. I expected the wagon to shift again but town played it really well. Grandpa was right earlier when he said I couldn't pivot off of James, if I voted Nancy Day 1 her flip would've made both James and me look really bad. I could've maybe dragged Val down with us but everybody read Nancy vs Val as TvT. It ultimately would've been rough if I didn't bus James, I just feel bad that he replaced into a doomed slot.

[Roden]

Also I lost my previous scum game because I was too hesitant to bus my partner haha, I probably over corrected here and could've possibly gotten us both to ELo if I defended James, but again everyone looked super townie Day 1 and there were very cracks. This probably wasn't my only way to end game but it was definitely the clearest path.

[Roden]

Thanks Clark. This was honestly a terrible spot to be in for town and I don't envy what I put you guys through.

I really wanted to be the elimination yesterday. Then Grandpa (no shade) really just made such a damn good case against himself.

This game may not be for me. What a progression. Suspect and vote the jail keeper, get sick near the end of D1, initiate a wagon against town D2, bite on grandpa (I couldn’t imagine scum wasn’t on the D2 wagon) and shit the bed D4. My shame knows no bounds.

For real, I don't think there's a whole lot that could've been done. Grandpa was easy elim bait and that's why I kept poking at him (sorry Grandpa), and a lot of things came together end of Day 1 and especially during Day 2 to secure end game for me. Day 2 was actually just crazy, Nancy and I abstaining from the vote on a flash wagon just worked out too perfectly for me since we both already looked the most town at that point. T3 fake claiming Tracker helped sell my Tracker claim too, which was honestly just lucky for me but I took advantage of it.

[Roden]

GG everyone! I had fun, though this ELo had my heart racing the whole time haha. A part of me felt bad Day 3 when people started begging to be NK'd too, I know this was a a tough ELo.

[Roden]

GG everyone! I had fun, though this ELo had my heart racing the whole time haha. A part of me felt bad Day 3 when people started begging to be NK'd too, I know this was a a tough ELo.

I still am seriously upset with you for not NKing me and subjecting me to this.

Sorry, I had to bring you. We both looked pretty equally town over the James elim, and I needed to make sure me surviving to ELo was justified. It was rightfully pointed out if I took Val to end game, it would've been a obvious pocket, and one of Clark/Grandpa had to come to end game since they had suspicions on them.