Newbie 2070 - Airplanes | GAME OVER

[Val89]

Hello all;

Nice to see you again so soon GrandpaMo and T3!

I'll have a read through and let you know my thoughts once I am done.

[Val89]

Right then. First off, area tags are a new one to me; and look like they might be as useful as when someone pointed out I could use "post" tags instead of manually linking the URL, so cheers for that one!

GrandpaMo

I've just finished playing my first game with GrandpaMo. For context, he was a VT who was mislimmed D2. In that game I initially read him as town, and was then later absolutely convinced he must have been scum based on his reaction to coming under E-1 pressure. I mention this because I think that experiance may well have informed some of his behaviour in this game; particulary the self-voting and the sort of "I don't give a f*ck" kind of attitude we saw early on.

Self-voting, and whether or not it was a pro-town behaviour, came up in that previous game. D1 ended in a sort of 1v1 "me-or-him" style duel that ended up being Town v Town, and the D1 lim ended up self-hammering, whilst admonishing Grandpa for not doing the same. I can see a world in which a Grandpa of either alignment, just coming out of that game, might reflexively decide to splash a self-vote in there; either as a "look, I'm actually town this game" signal, or as an attempt to pick up some superficial towncred. As it happens, I disgree that the self-vote or lack thereof was alignment indicative anyhow, but it did come up last game and I can see why Grandpa might have decided to do it here.

In addition, once that other player flipped VT the thread wasn't locked for a good while, and Grandpa came under some significant pressure. His reaction (which I think can be fairly summarised as mad panic and spaffing random reads up the wall with weak justification, at clear odds to what he had been saying up to then) got him widley scumread and ultimately mislimmed, and I can imagine he was in no rush to repeat that experiance. I should point out that until this morning that game was ongoing as noted in 128, but that justification does appear to tally with what Grandpa himself said on the issue when you read between the lines.

Turning to that 128 more widely; I have to say that when I skimmed through the game the first time last night, I really thought I was reading someone elses post - I had to go back up to check the author. In fact, it stands out so far in juxaposition with posts like 93 and 113, which I consider to be stereotypically Grandpa, and then an almost immediate laspe back into it in 169 that I've flip-flopped back and forth this morning about whether I actually consider this scum-inidcative in that he must have had some sort of coaching from a scum partner who was panicing they were about to lose half the scum team by page 6. Rereading several times, I've decided that there is enough of the 'essense' of Grandpa in it, however, and the actual logic tallies with what I know about him to come to conclusion that in fact, that isn't likley the case, and I agree entirely with Clark's 138 on the matter. Bravo, Grandpa. Let's hope that continues.

In conclusion then, I come to essentially the same conclusion as I did initially in my previous game. On more than a few occasions, Grandpa can be a tricky read, but I think we are looking at a Town!Grandpa trying his best to learn the lessons of his previous games. In that regard, I consider 135 and 144 to be entirely genuine; and lead me to assign Grandpa a

townread

here.

T3

T3 was the other player with whom I've played previously. As before, they strike me as someone who keeps their cards close to the chest and doesn't offer a lot of content. I agree with the assesment that what content we do have seems almost entirely focused on Grandpa, and they do read decidedly pleased about having something with Grandpa to lock on to. Prior to 164, I would have to read T3 as coming off scummy. He should have enough experiance with Grandpa to know he's a tricky read, and finding something to press on as early as 41 seems a little oppotunistic but I can see why a Town!T3 might use it as an opening to pile on a bit of presure. He has, however, just finished up a game where Grandpa was mislimmed for his reaction to pressure and he should also know that Grandpa is a bit of a easy target for scum because of his playstyle; so I was starting to get scumvibes from T3.

So basically Grandpasaid "I know his alignment and he knows mine" The he was referring to me.. and I was voting him. I'm voting him, and he's nodding along saying, yes, you know my alignment.

This, though, changes everything for me. As has been alluded to by both players already, T3 and Grandpa have some history. A pertinent point in that history is that T3 has played a game as town with a scum!Grandpa where T3 thinks they caught Grandpa 'perspective slipping'. The logic makes sense, and does seem to be a perfect example of what I think T3 means when he says 'perspective slipping'. To paraphrase, T3 is saying he threw some shade, and a vote, at Grandpa; and Grandpa's response was "T3 knows my alignment"; indicating Grandpa was indeed scum. The flaw, as I see it, is that I don't read 93 as Grandpa saying "T3 knows my alignment this game" but rather "We both have similar playstyles in that we can be fairly easy mislim targets for scum, but we generally have a better feel for deducing each others true alignment over some randoms that haven't played with us before".

I also think that's what...

so i can tell when they are town and scum while others cannot making him a very liable scumpush for mafia

..is trying to say more explicitly, although it's still clumsy.

My conclusion is that, although he is wrong, T3 seems as pleased with himself as he does because

he is

rather pleased with himself. He does actually think, with some justification from a T3 prespective, that he's solved half this game after 5 pages, and is going to end up being the hero of the town. That screams town to me, and is enough for me to give him a

townread

here, too.

Pedit: It's taken me a fair bit of time to type this up, and I can see there is some activity on the thread from Nancy while previewing, so I'm going to post these two reads to the thread now and come back to the others once I've seen if any of the new posts give me anything additional to go on whilst rumminating on the others.

[Val89]

Nancy Drew 39

This ISO started to ping me early on. 31 post at time of writing, and not sure what a fairly signifcant portion of them do. We have a an RVS vote on my slot followed by 5 posts that seem to offer nothing but apparently try and seem 'helpful'. There are some other things I find odd, such as the series of posts 74-76. A naked vote, followed by a naked townread, followed by the barest justification for said vote which amounts to "I didn't like this post" without explaning why. I don't see why the vote and the justification couldn't have been one post, apart from that it does serve to bump up the post count, and I don't follow the progression. It's almost as if she is reading the thread as she goes, the vote has gone in, she's saw something she could justify a TR on Psyche if nesacary and thought it important to get that in the thread, and then found something to justify the vote, or remembered afterwards they probably want something to justify the vote there if they don't want to get scumread, even if it is isn't actually a justification on closer look.

Admittedly, this could be a matter of play/post style, and I don't really want to go ahead and call it AI until I've had a chance to check through some of her other games. Speaking of meta...

It was under an alt account which I’d prefer not to out.

This rubs me up the wrong way, too. I get why you would want to play alt accounts. I get why, to have full value out of playing under an alt, it's best not to be open about them; but to try and bring knowledge from those alt games into this one without reciprocating seems off to me - like, you are simulatanously acknolewldging the power and usefulness of a meta read and apply it to this game whilst trying to deny the use of the same tool against yourself; and I don't see why you would do that if you were town, and are playing your usual town game here. I can see the justification for it if you are scum, and you are worried some meta might catch you out in this game.

In any case, since the rules of this game explicitly say "play to win this game, not some future one" I think it's fair game to point out I am 99% confident this is the game we are talking about, and equally confident about the identity of the account in that game to which Nancy refers. I am sorry if the digging I've done on this one devalues your investment in that account, but like I said, I consider it fair game in that I think how you've approached the issue might well be alignment indicative in this game, and I think since then you've basically outted it yourself with the reference to bugspray in 147.

I am also a little unhappy with this reference:

We still have a confirmed slot that hasn’t yet posted.

(SNIP)

I think until we hear from WS, I don’t want to assume more than one yet.

I am aware the WS slot is the slot I've replaced into, and her RVS vote is on my slot, but there is most certainly TWO slots to which the above applies, but only one gets a mention. What about the brookewyrm slot? Is there a reason Nancy fails to draw attention to that one, despite it being natural to refer to having 2 AFK slots at the time?

While none of it is particulary compelling in isolation, I think I have enough here in the 3 combined to satifisfy myself a

scumlean

is the correct read for this slot at this point

I have to leave now for a bit, and I realise this is a little bit of an inoppotune time given I haven't finished with all my reads, but I've skipped to Nancy because I think this is where my vote is best placed for the moment; so

VOTE: Nancy Drew 39

[Val89]

So, your response is to quote the entire wall, but to focus on a small part of it and say "nah, you are wrong, and scummy for even bringing it up"?, followed by "hah, you misrepped this too" with no explanation as to how? Noted.

By the way, I saw this "go on, I dare you to go there and see where my vote goes" type attack on a newbie slot by an SE last game. I correctly deduced it was coming from scum in that game too.

I still intend to do that dive, but you can consider this my double down right here, right now.

Feel free to vote my slot a second time.

[Val89]

Go on, I'll bite. Where in 194 is the accusation I need to respond to?

For that matter, what specific part of the bit I snipped was relevant to my point that there was very clearly 2 AFK slots and you were only mentioning the existence of one of them?

I snipped it because it very clearly has no relevance to my point, and to include it would only confuse the issue. I'm so very glad you've decided to attempt this "baffle the newbies with buzzwords and bullshit" defense though, because I think you are about to find yourself in a bit of a bind explaining your way out of it now.

So, when is your meta dive on me happening or was it just for show?

You want that rushed, do you? Seems scummy as well, to be honest.

[Val89]

I have an intense distrust for snipped posts, especially when I know my words have been either taken out of context or misinterpreted.

Then show us how. I'm waiting. You've said several times its very clear that's what I am doing, that it should be obvious I'm running some sort of angle when you see the full post (and by implicition, there is something in the bit I omitted that renders my point moot).

If it's a clear as that, go ahead and quote what in the bit I snipped has any relevance one way or another on the point I made. It should be easy for you.

You can't, because you know I it is irrelevant, and I cut it for that exact reason. The fact you can only resort to screaming "Here's the full post! He misrepresented me!" without indicating how, despite prompting, is telling.

I'm willing to concede the issue if you can in fact now point to the misrepresentation in the snipped part, but we are all reading the same posts here, and I think it's obvious you can't, because no misrepresentation is in evidence.

[Val89]

Right, I'll try and spell this out as slowly and clearly as I can.

Here is the point I made in my read.

there is most certainly TWO slots to which the above applies, but only one gets a mention. What about the brookewyrm slot? Is there a reason Nancy fails to draw attention to that one, despite it being natural to refer to having 2 AFK slots at the time?

Here is the post of yours to which I refer in full:

I liked that he expressed concern at your wagon being at E-1 but then he didn’t unvote, so idk. We still have a confirmed slot that hasn’t yet posted.

Well, I liked Clark unvoting you and I thought that Lunar seemed to believe what he was saying. According to what you’ve been alleging, T3 is supposed to be good at reading you, so if you’re town, then that probably doesn’t look great for him.

I think until we hear from WS, I don’t want to assume more than one yet. Has T3 ever wrongly sr you before?

I've explained above, but here, in some more detail, is why I scumread it. At the time of the post, there were clearly 2 AFK slots, WS (now me) and brookewyrm. You are correct that there was one confirmed slot that hadn't posted, that's a true statment; but there were in fact TWO that hadn't posted. You then say "I think until we hear from WS, I don't want to assume more than one

[scum on Grandpa's wagon]

yet.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the only way to read your post is "I don't want to say how many or who the scum on Grandpa's wagon could be, because there is at least one confirmed slot we haven't heard from. Until we hear from Wayward son, I reserve the right to read them as scum". Frankly, its a valid stance to take - you don't want to be drawn into making a guess as to how many scum are on Grandpa's wagon when there are 2 slots you litterally have no way of reading because they haven't posted. If you post instead read "I think until we hear from WS

or brookewyrm

, I don't want to assume more than one" I would have taken no issue with.

My point is that you say "We still have

a

confirmed slot that hasn't yet posted" (important note: not "two confirmed slots") and later, you name one of the two slots to which that applies - ""I think until we hear from WS" (important note: not "WS or brookewyrm").

The rest of the post I didn't consider relevant to that point. For the avoidence of doubt, here is everything you said that I snipped from that quote:

I liked that he expressed concern at your wagon being at E-1 but then he didn’t unvote, so idk.
Well, I liked Clark unvoting you and I thought that Lunar seemed to believe what he was saying. According to what you’ve been alleging, T3 is supposed to be good at reading you, so if you’re town, then that probably doesn’t look great for him.
Has T3 ever wrongly sr you before?

Your defense, rolled up into an accusation against me, is that I deliberately misrepresented what you said by ommiting those statements above. At this point, you've repeated that charge several times. My challenge to you has been to identify which part of the omission is the misrepresentation. You've failed to do so, despite trying to imply that you have, and that to me - sorry to say - is scummy AF, and I make no apologies for pointing it out. I will continue to do so until you identify

how

I've misrepresented you instead of simplying screaming that

I have

and hope that's sufficent. It isn't.

[Val89]

I already explained the alt thing and why that was a bad take.

Except that I disagree that you have. You've certainly spammed the thread with a whole bunch of nothing, but I don't see anything that approaches an explanation on the 'alt thing' or why it's a bad take. If I am wrong, and I've missed something, please identify where.

The only thing that seems to come anywhere close to address it is in the 193; where you say

I was literally asked by both Mo and Clark how I could gave possibly misilimmed Mo because Clark could find no games.

So this take sounds either dishonest or you have no been reading. You’re trying to make it sound like I made a big deal about this rather than to try to solve Mo.

That to me appears on the surface to be the only attempt you've made to address the issue, and frankly, it does nothing of the sort. Yeah, you were literally asked by Mo and Clark how you could have mislimmed Mo, but you answer was "it was a game I played on an alt account, and I'm not telling you which". It was THAT response with which I take issue; and I've not yet seen you engage with the reasons I found that response to be scummy. I laid them out here:

I get why you would want to play alt accounts. I get why, to have full value out of playing under an alt, it's best not to be open about them; but to try and bring knowledge from those alt games into this one without reciprocating seems off to me - like, you are simulatanously acknolewldging the power and usefulness of a meta read and apply it to this game whilst trying to deny the use of the same tool against yourself; and I don't see why you would do that if you were town, and are playing your usual town game here. I can see the justification for it if you are scum, and you are worried some meta might catch you out in this game.

Do you want to take the oppotunity to address why you think that's a bad take now, or do you still think screaming "misrepresentation" will be sufficent to satisfy me if you do it enough times?

[Val89]

No I explained and quoted the alt thing twice now, why are you ignoring that?

No, you haven't. I don't know who you think you are fooling with this performance, but it certainly isn't me.

Let's have a post number, shall we? Just give me the number of just

one

of the posts you explain the alt thing.

Believe me, there is exactly zero chance of me ignoring the fact you haven't addressed the issue - I'll continue pointing out until you finally do address it, or one of us is eliminated.

[Val89]

Fair enough. It likley that if I were scum, I might be tempted to run down the "you are bullying me, you big bully" route if I had no actual response to the points made, so I don't take it personally.

[Val89]

I don’t like the way he’s talking to me but I’ll be damned if I just continue to allow him or anyone to continue to browbeat me like that.

You know, if you truly believed that's what I am doing, I think you are going about this completely wrong.

You could give a calm, measured response to the points I was making, and then if I did continue to 'browbeat' you, I would be showing my hand as as the scummy twat, who is not interesting in sorting your slot, that you purport to find me.

I am sorry if you find my tone to be less than to your liking, but you are the slot I found scummiest, even before these interactions, for the reasons I've given in post 193, and I take offense when scummy slots start attacking the players and not the plays.

I don't think my tone has been rude. Forceful, perhaps, bringing attention back round to the fact you haven't addressed my points for scum casing you in the first place. I apologise publically if I have said anything that could be misconstrued as rude or a personal attack, but saying you are now going to ignore a slot that is scum reading you does nothing to make me think I'm on the wrong track here.

[Val89]

No, I’m not ignoring you because you’re wrongly sr me, I’m ignoring you because I don’t trust myself not to respond in a toxic manner. The bad sr I can handle, the intimidation and the browbeating, I will not engage.

OK, that is fair enough. I've other slots to focus my attention on sorting, for now.

I think I'll trust the others to read what has been written and decide if I've been either intimidating, or browbeating, or if this is in fact an attempt by you to attack the player making the scum case on you, and to vote accordingly.

I'll move on to looking at the others, but it case in isn't clear, I am willing to go on record that my scum lean on Nancy can now be upgraded to a reasonably strong scumread. I'm not adverse to revisiting that however, if anyone, particularly my own townreads, have reason to disagree with me on that.

[Val89]

Val has reads but the rest of his posts are kind of devoid of actual content and just arguing.

Fair. I can see how my posts from 195 onwards with Nancy could be fairly described as "just arging". It is difficult to engage with actual issues if you aren't getting any substantive response to engage with.

I can't look at what Nancy as chosen as her signature quotes, and also read her thinly veild threats in response to me ("I probably have a pretty good idea where my vote will go.", " If you weren’t a newbie, I promise I’d already be voting you", "I’m really getting irritated with your attitude. Do better." etc) and think her 'oh, you are such a bully' comeback is in any way serious. It's patently obviously an act, and having drawn that act out and having it recorded here in thread day one is about as far as I can go with this for now.

If it's here for someone to look over in a few game-days time when there well may be some further information to work with, then I think it was constructive to let that argument run its course, even if you disagree that it has told us anything of value at present.

[Val89]

ClarkBar

This one is interesting. I'll start out by noting that, as I read through the thread in chronological order, it was often ClarkBar who popped up to ask the questions I was thinking. There isn't anything specific I can really point to and say "yep, that seems town to me", like I can with T3, but I do get a general, gut-level sense that this is a slot making posts aimed at driving discussion and shining a light on some of the iffy, or kooky, stuff that's happening in this game, and the posting of thoughts and the questioning does seem to having a pro-town effect.

That said, when I looked at the ISO and tried to make a list of his reads so far, I struggled. I mean, you can certainly have a good go at

inferring

what his reads might be, but I don't see any explicit mention of "X slot is town, I find Y slot scummy". It may well be that he is reluctant to share those reads without having a firm basis for them, and I can see that being a newbtown sort of behavior, but it could also be a good way for a scum slot to hedge their bets. I think the former is more likely, but I would feel a bit more comfortable with this slot if we started to see some more of the conclusions ClarkBar's questioning leads him to in terms of alignment.

The only other thing I consider of note was this, directed at LunarRest:

And what’s so unique about my posting o.O

Whether it's intentional or not your posts never seem serious. Like you're not playing to win, but instead being a personality. That's not necessarily a critique.

I'm struggling to see the basis for this conclusion. ClarkBar says in 42 that they took a look at Lunar's brief post history, but when I went and did it myself, brief is a little of an understatement. There is one other game, and the ISO is literally 7 posts. Touch of RVS, bit of a discussion about whether LunarRest's use of the word 'mafisio' was a scumtell or not (spoiler alert: It wasn't), and then they replaced out. That's it. As far as I am concerned, that game is a write off as far as telling us anything about LunarRest, so I find it interesting Clark finds something that leads them to think LunarRest isn't playing to win. What that means for Clarks alignment, if anything, I don't know, since I can't see why a scum!Clark would bring such a thing up, but it pinged me, so I thought I would document it.

I'm happy to call this one another

townlean

for now.

[Val89]

I believe Nancy was on the alt Emily but I might be wrong. Gramma, posting style, and time zones match.

I initially thought the same. But of the 3 accounts that mislimmed Grandpa - Loki Dokie, Hopkirk, Emily (see here); only Hopkirk was also on the bugspray wagon, as per Nancys 146. GrandpaMo also has reason to think the Nancy Alt flipped scum (not sure where that comes from, but OK), and Hopkirk is the only other one to fit that description too.

Interestingly, the briefest of looks at that ISO throws up red flags as far as a theoretical scum!Nancy=Hopkirk goes - I can see the "I'm hurt and you are a meanie" attitude coming through from the very first post. That would be a very good reason right off the bat why a scum!Nancy in this game wants to be coy about her scum game in 1009, if we are right about the identity of the alt.

That is why I don't get it. If you aren't scum in this game, why do you need to protect your scum meta from scrutiny? If protecting the alt important to you, then just don't mention the information you gleaned from your alt play, just say "I found this game of Grandpa's, and this is what I see" and don’t mention you were actually in it; or else say "I played in this game under alt X", and just roll a new alt for your next game. Trying to hide the existence of a game you played as scum only makes sense me to me if you also rolled scum this game.

[Val89]

Correction, the reference to the Nancy alt also being on the bugspray wagon is in post 147, not 146.

However, it’s reckless to put anyone higher than E-2, which is why I miselimed bugspray.

[Val89]

Correct. Also happens to be the only account that both mislimmed Grandpa, and mislimmed bugspray. 1009 is the only Grandpa game (with the exception of the one we just finished together) in which Grandpa was mislimmed as town. All the others, he either was scum, night killed, or survived. He can correct me if I am wrong on that, but I believe I've checked all his games now. Also looks like the only game with both bugspray and GrandpaMo on the player list, and the Nancy Drew account makes an appearence on it, albeit the post made by that account is wiped by the mod.

As such, I see no other possibility. Nancy herself basically outed it when she said "I also mislimmed bugspray", unless you consider that to be a very clever ruse. Remember, at the time of that 147 post, she wasn't under any pressure.

[Val89]

Grandpa, I would accept your waterfowl epithet for me with good grace if "I carried a mislim on grandpa" was in fact what Nancy said, but it wasn't. It was:

Wrt to Mo, I miselimed him in a past game.

No mention of "carrying" involved.

Town says that to town? Yes, they bloody well do - I say I mislimmed you in our game (sorry about that, old chap), and we were both town.

In any case, if you are right that only scum says that, then that's only further confirmation that Hopkirk and Nancy are one and the same; given that Hopkirk was the only scum on your wagon in 1009.

[Val89]

LunarRest

Null read. Sorry I don't have anything more interesting than that for you folks. I can't find anything on which to base a read at the moment. Others have suggested #79 is alignment indicative, which Psyche says is "fine in terms of alignment-indication" (162), which I take to mean 'seems town', but I can see that post being just as likley to come from a scum!LunarRest as it can from town. Others have suggested that it shows a town mindset that's hard for newbscum to fake, but even if I agreed with the premise that newbscum are typically fairly poor (I don't, I've read games where newbscum play some amazing games - one of those in this game, as an aside) , the central argument - that Psyche asking if they should unvote is a little dodgy - was already alluded to by ClarkBar before 79, so they could have just taken that and ran with it.

I don't think there is anything scummy in it, but I have zero confidence in saying anything there is town either; hense I cant give any reading other than a straight up Null.

I'll let you know if that changes.

[Val89]

BlurryX

I'm more than a little concerned about this taking off as quickly as it is.

Thing is, I do largely agree with the points Psyche makes in 160, and agree with the conclusion that the post of Blurry's we have is "all over the place". Psyche goes to say they are "stuck trying to figure out if the post is a mess because of inexperience", and I think they are right on the money with the suggestion that the post seems scummy, but may well come down to confused newbtown with little experience and having difficulty communicating their thoughts in a way that makes sense. I often find the same "all over the place" logic in Grandpa's writing, but we aren't in any rush to chop them, are we?

That said, I

definitely

disagree with the idea we should be limming BlurryX over this one post, as expressed by Psyche in 279, particularly as the slot is basically AFK at this point. The was a newbie game that completed recently where a Town PR was limmed on D1 while MIA, let's not go repeating that here, please.

Turning to the actual substance, I have nothing additional to add to Psyche analysis, and I think the later part of it offers some food for thought that BlurryX needs to respond to, but I do disagree with some of the takes:

So the read doesn't really engage substantially with the interpretive challenge or take us as a town anywhere beyond the fact of its communication.

I find the same sort thing evident in some of ClarkBar's postings, and I've written there (237) why I think that could go either way as far as indicating alignment. I'm not immediately convinced this is scummy without evidence that this becomes a pattern over a longer period therefore, and I am disregarding it when weighing up my overall read.

One thing that did strike me was in

As Psyche themselves note, this is self-evidently incomplete. The thought that was intended to go there may well have gone on to give something other than a null read, so I don't really think it's fair to draw a conclusion on that without seeing what that section was

supposed

to say.

Comment about me is off. I think I've done a lot of substance so far! I feel personally responsible for the E-1 he celebrates a paragraph earlier. Of course I disagree with the idea that only my #67 can be analyzed or that I was being performative in it.

Fine. I accept what Psyche says with respect to their 67, and I had already come to the conclusion it could be considered an attempt to provoke discussion and move the game along. Problem is, BlurryX wasn't alone in thinking it might have been some dodgy motivation behind it (or at least wondering out loud as to it's motivation). Both Clarkbar and LunarRest had already done the same, and neither of those get the same "comment is off" treatment. If the issue isn't with #69 and instead with the "lack of substance", I have to say I think that could be a conclusion a town player could have come to, looking at Psyche's posting prior to when BlurryX made this 137 post. Clearly, that has changed since, but I don't see any basis to suggest Blurry's comment on Psyche was 'off' that couldn't also be applied to at least two others.

The points made about the T3 and Grandpa reads are fair, and require explanation. As such, if you put a gun to my head, I would say my read on BlurryX is a little on the red side of null, call it a slight

scumlean

but certainly until we have heard more I don't think there is enough to place my vote over it, and I vehemently disagree we should be limming over it.

[Val89]

is there just miscommunication going on between them?

If there is, getting it cleared up now would seem to be best way to move forward because right now I have Nancy as strong scum and that's unlikley to move while this still hangs over us.

I thought she did, but again, not everyone seems to be on the same page atm and Val could be talking about something else involving the alt.

To be clear - I don't think Nancy addressed the point at all. She screamed that I was misrepresenting her several times, she clarified that she had an alt again, and explained that she outted the fact she played under an alt with Grandpa previously because she was being asked by Grandpa and Clark where the meta info was coming from, and said that she would have prefered it if she had played that game under the Nancy account.

None of that addresses the point I made that saying "I have a meta read on X, but I'm not telling you where it is from, you will just have to trust me" feels scummy. If you want to protect the alt, why not just say "I have a meta read on X, here is the game he played in and here is what I think it tells us"; trying to muscle in the fact you were playing in it under an alt seems like a way to try and bolster not very good reasoning with "I was there" cred whilst at the same time trying to hide your own meta tells. You know who worries about thier own meta tells in a mafia game? Scum! Who cares if you get meta read as town if you are town, right?

In any case, regardless of the merits of the inital points, I think her reaction was more telling than anything in my inital read. I can buy that a particulary sensitive individual might perceive my forceful tone as some sort of personal attack, and if I thought that was what was going on I would explain and retract, but are you really going to suggest someone who choses "Thing with Nancy is we just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it." and "I'm slightly scared of Nancy" as her signature quotes, and says the things you identify as RED FLAGS in your 236 to a newbie slot is some sort of sensitive snowflake who doesn't go after her own scumreads forcefully herself?

I don't. Performative seems an excellent word for it, and I don't see any town justification for putting on such a performance. However, if you do think this can reasonably chalked up as "miscommunication", lets thrash it out and get it sorted now.

[Val89]

what tf more aren’t youcomprehending?

If you want to protect the alt, why not just say "I have a meta read on X, here is the game he played in and here is what I think it tells us"; trying to muscle in the fact you were playing in it under an alt seems like a way to try and bolster not very good reasoning with "I was there" cred whilst at the same time trying to hide your own meta tells. You know who worries about thier own meta tells in a mafia game? Scum! Who cares if you get meta read as town if you are town, right?

^ This.

[Val89]

Sometimes not giving a reason gets better results than giving one.

Eh, this is something that's come up in the past, and I'm still not entirely sure how that works, but alas, I'll take it at face value for now.

Val and Clark are both town for the above.

T3 is town for the above. You can eliminate them from the equation.

[Val89]

Backing off like this is such a townie move I'd almost consider it a town slip

I wasn't going to comment on it because I thought it was self-evident on it's own, but did you read that as something other than "sorry you are so stupid Val, I shouldn't have expected you to play good like us SE slots." I can only assume there was a very surface level reading if it was taken as an actual apology.

Is there something townie about that?

[Val89]

i townread t3 for the exact same reason in newbie 2069 or 68 (w.e the one that ended) lofi one and boom they were scum

You are making a rather large assumption that you know my reasons for townreading T3 for that post, and that they are the same as whatever reasons you had.

Out of interest, why do you think I'm townreading T3 for it?

[Val89]

basically got pocketed and i feel like since he townreads u and clark and just states it blanatly, u have the nerve to townread them as well because scum wouldnt say that from ur persecptive?

am i like at least half right?

Nah, not even close. I do wish being able to confidently townread people who townread you and be correct was a thing, because that would make this game a hell of a lot easier.

In actual fact, since I made that post, I am slightly less confident now my reasoning was a legitimate T3 towntell. My explanation was going to include the line "Unless T3 is the absolute topboss of self-meta", but reading some of thier scum PTs makes me think they may well know exactly what they are doing.

[Val89]

Roden seems suspicious.
233 feels like he null reads Blurryx here, 258 feels like he scum reads here. I just find it strange how he appears to have a case on Nancy, but when it doesn't cause a wagon he jumps onto Blurryx's. Scum lean.

Sorry James, I'm not seeing this one. Roden replaced in and was obviously skimming the thread and posting initial thoughts. 233 reads as the "this pings me" stage, and 258 is "yeah, I've finished going through the read and I come down on the scum side with Blurry". Going from a null read to a scum read is the natural progression, and I see no reason to be suspicious in it. You might be a little sensitive given that the target is your slot, but I would give it a re-read today and see if you still feel the same thing.

Before you replaced in, I was very lightly scumreading your slot, based almost entirely on the confused reads your predecessor gave us on T3 and Grandpa. I don't think it's fair to read your slot based on what might have been a communication thing, so I'm resetting that read to null, but could you give us your reasoning for TR/TL'ing those two if that is what you are doing?

[Val89]

Also the vote on Val89 just feels like revenge voting from my perspective. Is it OMGUS? I can't remember which the right acronym is, but the one which is like "you voted me you SCUM!".

Yeah, voting (or scumreading) someone because they start scumreading you is "Oh My God U Suck!“, but it's not always a scummy thing in itself. Remember town doesn't know who the scum are, and are actively looking for things to identify the scum. If you are town, then the only thing you know for sure is that you are town so if someone starts a scum case on you, you can't help but wonder if it's engineered, and that can prompt you to start scum casing them back without it being deliberate. A town can OMGUS another town very easily.

Nancy's vote on me doesn't even seem like OMGUS, though. She hasn't explicitly said so, but to me she has implied several times she reads me as 'wrong town' .

Her reaction to my scum case was more in line with NEEs from last game, in the vein of "go there, I dare you, and you are going to get voted." In that game, I pointed it out it was hanging there as an implicit threat against me, and read it as scummy, and it wasn't ever followed through on by NEE - they just decided to night kill me instead.

Nancy's vote on me seems like that follow through to me because I did continue to go there. It was more like an explicit and overt 'I'm voting you because I don't like your attitude, not because I think you are scum', and she wants me to know it - perhaps banking that my apparent inexperience might make me back off. A punishment vote, rather than OMGUS, if you will.

And yeah, I don't see any other way to read it but scummy, to be honest. It was in the last game, and I know it's only a sample size of one, but I think it is in this game too.

[Val89]

OMGUS is a trap town can fall into when getting scum cased by another town. Nobody is openly declaring their reasoning is OMGUS, because the second they realise its a factor, they are no longer falling into the trap, if that makes sense.

My point is that I don't think Nancys vote of me is any sort of OMGUS - she isn't reading me as scum because I read her as scum (that's OMGUS), instead it seems to me like she is reading me as to wn leaning, but using her vote to express her displeasure at my 'attitude'. She even says as she votes me:

I’m really getting irritated with your attitude. Do better.

Like Psyche said, and I think it's a fair point, that your vote is a tool that can be used for more than simply achieving an elimination.

Using it to scold a townread doesn't seem like an appropriate use of that tool, if you are town yourself. Might make sense if you are scum and figure it might help convince that town to stop bringing heat onto your slot, though.

[Val89]

Val and Nancy were going at each other in a way that has, in my experience (albeit it's been years since I last played) is indicative of TvT tunneling.

What part or factors of it did you personally consider indictive of TvT, in your experiance?

So...I didn't give a reason for my scum read on you in my list because I wanted to see how you and blurry would react. You snapped back at me, which I expected, but blurry-slot immediately jumped down my throat about that specific action being scummy, which I did not expect from a scum mate since it's obvious buddying. So either you're both idiots (which commentary from people who have played with you does not seem to support), or one or both of you are town.

I've re-read this several times, but I'm not following the logic, and how it leads to either of the conclusions presented. Would you mind attempting to rephrase or else explain like I am an idiot?

[Val89]

^ This is exact reason I though 238 was basically a T3 towntell, and my question to Grandpa in 332 was to see if he had picked up on the same.

I've seen T3 say that he considers scum unable to form the same emotional response to a post that town does, so if someone picks up the same pings on a slot he does, as town, then they must be town, but very rarely says that's the justification unless pushed. Whether you believe that to be true or not is irrelevant, I'm fairly certain T3 gueninely beleives it to be true.

I figured if T3 was clearing both me and Clark from one post of mine, and doing it instictively and reactively 2 minitues after I post, then he was doing so because I had picked up some things on Clark in that post that made him think Clark was town too but couldn't articulate, and he thinks a scum!Val can't fake that emotional reaction, and seeing me confirm the same gut-pings made him more confident Clark was town too, else how does one post by me clear both of us?

Hense my 315, and my confidence T3 can be excluded from the PoE. Since I don't subscribe to the same theory, I don't think Psyche can however, just yet at least.

[Val89]

It's the single-minded intensity. I'm far from a mafia veteran and I haven't played any mafia at all in forever, but when I WAS playing, scum *loved* shit like this because it got Town arguing among themselves and took the heat off them.

Meh, I don't see it that way. I appreaciate scum love it if it TvT, but that fact alone isn't a justifcation why it must be TvT here. Sure, if we are TvT I am sure scum are pissing themselves laughing at us, but it isn't something scum get to invoke or control at all, and just because it might seem 'single-minded' I don't think that can identify it one way or another. I would hardly expect scum to just roll over and be "eh, fair enough, you got me".

In fact, the single-mindness of it may well indicate that I (and everyone else) have fallen into exactly the trap a theorectical scum!Nancy intended us to. The whole focus has been on the 'alt thing', and how me and Nancy ended up 'arguing' about it, and we seem to have forgotten (me included, in fact), that the 'alt thing' was only a small, and frankly not all that important, part of what pinged me as scummy about her in the first place. James has picked up in more detail in 370 what I was trying to express in my first paragraph on 192.

I do still think it's odd, but I am happy to entertain the idea that I am wrong about the alt thing, and the stuff about the two afk slots as being NAI (I admitted it was weak in isolation in the post itself), and I still think there is enough in the odd-ness of Nancy's play and posting upto then, and in her reaction, to say there is good cause to scumlean her slot regardless.

I've stated why I think her reaction was scum-indicative rather than an abrasive TvT reaction a few times, but I am worried other town may well have glossed over it and the clear scumpings have just been lost in the noise; so I'll post a couple of snippets from that reaction I think sum up why I am concerned. I am aware Nancy will complain I'm quoting relevant parts, rather than the whole posts, and probably try screaming I'm misrepresenting her by doing so, but if I do so then eyes will glaze over again, so sod it. If you see the issue, you can go and read the whole posts you so know I'm not trying to pull a fast one on anyone here.

We have 6 days and

I only vote when I feel confident about it.

If you weren’t a newbie, I promise I’d already be voting you for the two obviously untrue misreps.

However, you’re wanting to metadive me actually looks townie

so hopefully you don’t butcher that as well.

Actually I kind’ve like this.

I’m going to lean wrong town for now

but if he continues to misrep my posts, that will change.

VOTE: Val89

I’m really getting irritated with your attitude. Do better.

Very next post:

I don’t even have a read on you

but I feel like you’re trying to bully and intimidate me with your tone

[Val89]

also bold red! that sure helps single out stuff! gotta touch that sparingly though

To tell a secret, I spent far too long with the preview button trying different ways to highlight the information, all the while thinking specifically of you and your "eye glaze over" comment.

At one point, I even spoliered it with a "Important information, click here!" tag, to reduce the apparent visual length of the post so you and others like you might think "oh, short post, might read that"

[Val89]

T3, if you're doing what I think you're doing I'm gonna laugh my ass off so hard.

If he

is

doing what I think you think that T3 is doing, do we think that scum don't already think that he was doing what I think that you think that he was doing, and thus we should probably confirm one way of another?

[Val89]

Well, I was assuming a town!T3 doing it, but essentially yes, that's what I thought was going on here, although obviously not with the goal of avoiding a lim, since I don't figure the Psyche slot is in a huge amount of danger at present.

It feels a little icky to drag it into the light as overtly as this, but I figure if it's obvious to two players, the chances are it's already being discussed in the mafia PT, so it perhaps won't do much damage to talk about it.

[Val89]

Nancy,

Alright; James has said several times they don't beleive meta reads are ever helpful in sorting slots, but I disagree because I've read games where they have been.

Providing one link to one game where you do something being read as scummy as town and then say "see, it actually makes me town, and everyone who's played with me before who doesn't see that must be scum" isn't going to wash however.

Before I could even entertain that, I would need to see at least

2

(not just one) town games, and at least one scum game where you

don't

do the said OMGUS-ing (although I disagree that's the correct term for what's happening). I made an attempt to fish them out myself but I've so far come across team games and stuff with weird 'stump' mechanics and other business I can't really get my head around to decide what your alignment actually was in order to follow the games. Since you obviously have a better command of the games you've played in, would you be able to provide links to another town game, and at least one fairly recent scum game where you don't do this?

Can you also explain, if you omgus sr/vote in pretty much every game(456), or use your vote as a device to stop you "doing something actually toxic" in response to a pecieved push (474), what do you consider the town utility to the back and forth you had with Psyche about the utility of splashing your vote around without being confident it's landing on scum in 183-188?

[Val89]

James,

Given your slot is now in hammer-range, would you mind both claiming, and also answering the following?

Before you replaced in, I was very lightly scumreading your slot, based almost entirely on the confused reads your predecessor gave us on T3 and Grandpa. I don't think it's fair to read your slot based on what might have been a communication thing, so I'm resetting that read to null, but could you give us your reasoning for TR/TL'ing those two if that is what you are doing?

If you have answered and I missed it, sorry; but I only see confirmation in your ISO that you are townreading or townleading both (360) and no explanation as to why.

[Val89]

There are tons of games where I do this and if you do the metadive, you will very easily find them.

This is the point, Nancy, I've tried and I'm struggling to find them. If you do think it's very easy, would you please indulge me? I'm trying to find reasons to believe what you are saying here...

Also, WIMk?

[Val89]

I do think we need a claim here, James. You are at E-1. It looks like a damn serious wagon to me, and Nancy isn't the only one driving it.

I don't feel good about the fact most of reason you are up for the chop seems based on a single post by your predecessor, and what may well be chalked up to communication issues anyway, but that doesn't negate the fact you are up for the lim here, and I don't exactly have a townread on you myself right now. My vote isn't the only possible source for the hammer either.

[Val89]

Third and final time, James. We need a claim.

Intent to hammer

[Val89]

I'm not seeing reasons to say James is acting "super scummy" at all. More that I don't really have reasons to come down on the town side either. He picked up some of the reasons I was finding Nancy scummy, and if he did so independently, then that says town, but he could have just read them straight off my post and noticed it had been ignored up to then and gone with it, so I can't say either way. In short, right now the slot is still null to me.

I do have to entertain the fact he is scum, waiting for a scummy buddy to come and tell him if he should fake claim here or not, which is why he is dodging it, and that, combined with his flip perhaps telling something about Nancy means I'm not adverse to dropping the hammer myself here, if it comes to it.

[Val89]

Simultaneous posting be like...

Anyone else got something to say about that claim?

[Val89]

To keep setup ambiguous from scum for at least one night longer, someone should go ahead and hammer.

Bullshit. Absolute bullshit.

Unless James is fake claiming, scum are the only one with the exception of the other PR who KNOW the setup, since doctor only appears once in each of column A and B. If they have a rolecop or roleblocker solves the setup completely for them.

No way Psyche didn't know that. Get this obvscum outta here, we can sort Nancy for sure tomorrow.

VOTE: Pysche

[Val89]

No, I think I've figured it.

UNVOTE:

Let me get on my computer so I can read through the vote count properly before I make any hasty decisions, but yeah, bye bye James, probably.

[Val89]

Psycho isn't claiming a mason there were no mason crumbs

Pyscho can't be mason because there were no crumbs?

Nah, mate, couldn't be Mason because you are apparently the Doc.

VOTE: JamesTheNames

[Val89]

Sorry for the misname there, Psyche. Wasn't deliberate. A freudian slip, perhaps

[Val89]

I just like doxxing myself, save anyone else from going to the effort. I can't say I hate Taylor Swift's album of the same name, however.

[Val89]

Yeah, it was a gambit. It's not nessacary for Psyche to be either of those roles, either. I was never going to fall for James' trick, but given what I know, Psyche saying what he did made me think he might be James' partner for a second. I realised quickly that was crap, and I am sorry for blowing it Psyche.

You should have kept the tracker claim to yourself, but we can definetly talk about it tomorrow T3, don't worry.

[Val89]

also i dont see a scumcase on blurry from u , can u give me that at least?

After he's been hammered? You are going to get a shock once you catch up, Grandpa...

[Val89]

you just made the Doctor get hammered

You ain't the doctor. I know 100% you are flipping Mafia Rolecop here. Just...give it a rest. You failed the second you chose Doc for your fake claim.

[Val89]

val wait.

u literally said psyche was scum and quickly pivoted to james being scum -- what happened there

Listen, I don't want to go into now. James isn't flipping doc though, that's all you need to know.

[Val89]

No. James is scum fakeclaiming. If you are town, Grandpa, just be be quiet. Normally we would get something out of this phase by talking, but not this time. James is hammered, we can get on with solving the second scum slot tomorrow.

[Val89]

Psyche, you didn't need to say that either...

Just everyone shut up and log off, will you?

[Val89]

[Val89]

Lol.

[Val89]

Why would you cc after the hamer.

Grandpa is either very smart, or very dumb. We can deduce which and act accordingly tomorrow.

We have lots to talk about TOMORROW, T3. I for one am looking forward to it. Where's the mod when you need them?

[Val89]

I know what you are trying to do, Grandpa, (at least I hope so, else you really ARE dumb as hell. At least James had an excuse) and I don't think carrying on this performance is +town. Sorry to blow the pretense mate, but just shut up and log off, please.

[Val89]

@Nancy, don't worry about it tonight, game state has moved on.

[Val89]

I need to discuss things with T3 tomorrow. Real doctor needs to make sure there is an oppotunity that happens. Capisci?

[Val89]

val i need ur input asap.

Is there something specific that you want me to comment on?

I currently still think you are town, despite the fake claim. I suspect I know why you fake claimed, and if so, you know why I am asking you this question in the manner I am. I am doing a dive on something right now; unless there is something specific you want answering, I will get back to you once I have conclusions to share.

[Val89]

What input are you after from me, Grandpa?

Are you just fishing for PRs here, after what Roden just said in 636?

[Val89]

the only possible setup is fn + jailkeeper + rolecop or just jailkeeper + 2 mafia goons

Incorrect.

why would i be fishing for prs as scum?

So you can murder them tonight now the JK is gone, why else? You are correct the scum team now know exactly WHAT PR they are dealing with, but it isn't 100% who it is right now, no?

Like I said, I think your motivation for the fake doc claim yesterday was town, which is why I confused what motivation a town!Grandpa would have for trying to engage in this conversation right now.

[Val89]

how willing do u want an elim on chuck today and if they flip town, we condemn u

F*ck me, Grandpa, you've come out of the blocks on D2 with a bunch of posts that make it very difficult to maintain my townread on you. What makes you so certain the last scum is 100% in ClarkBar and Chuck that you would suggest this?

What are you playing at, here, exactly?

[Val89]

You know, "push the narrative" is such an unfortunate choice of phrase. Coming from you, Grandpa, it may well be NAI, but you don't half make this difficult for us.

You do realise that, if it's a theorectical scum!Grandpa, then getting a mislim today, outting and killing the possible remaining town PR tonight, then chaining that into a second mislim tomorrow is about the only chance that scum!Grandpa has to turn this game around, and that's exactly what you've come out straight away and appear to have done within a few posts of day start?

I know I initially TR'd you in our last game together D1, then mis-read you as scum when you started acting scummy after the D1 flip and into D2, so you have form for this sort of behavior and I'm being a little cautious drawing conclusions from it; but please don't think that because I've been burnt once that means I'll just consider it your meta and that grants you a license to act as scummy as you like today.

If you start acting in a way that is obviously anti-town, such as fishing for PR claims when that isn't going to help town now, or potentially setting up to chain lims onwhat appears to be flimsy justification, I'm going to call it out.

What did you your "reaction post" tell you about Clark? They don't appear to have taken the oppotunity to pinpoint you or someone else as scum, nor jumped at the chance to trade themselves for Chuck, so what is that telling you?

[Val89]

again, how is having an opinion that there is scum between clark and chuck anti town?

It isn't. The problem is apparently being willing to bet the game on it; without being sure. It's fine having the opinion that you think there is the last scum in one or Clark or Chuck because you TR everyone else, and you express that opinion, but I don't think you should be confident enough in those reads to start suggesting we lim today, and if they flip town we lim the other; and potentially set up to lim what might two townies back-to-back. Like I said, that seems like the wincon for a scum!Grandpa, and I find it strange you come out the gate with it. I know you are trying to walk it back now and say it was a "reaction test" and perhaps you weren't being serious, but you have to see how it appears to the rest of us.

because they haven't answered this yet?

Looks to me like they answered it in 645 - 'No; I'm not 100% it's Chuck, and therefore as of this moment I'm not offering myself up in a 1v1, but I think they are most the most likley candidate.' Seems like a resonable position to take.

also -- again, i justified the pr hunting thing, there is no reason for scum to PR hunt.

I think you are taking the piss just a little bit here. I've already said it's blaringly obvious why scum need to PR hunt today - if there is a town PR left, they need to find them and kill them tonight, and nothing will stop them from doing so if they can find them.

What I don't understand is why you think town need to "figure out the setup". We are in Row 2, we know that. If the last PR is a FN, why out them today, only to have mafia kill a conftown tonight? If it is a tracker, then you have to assume they didn't get any information worth outting over last night, so why out them today instead of giving them a second shot at it tonight? There is precisely zero reason for town!Grandpa, or indeed any other townie, to be going setup or mechsolving today, because you only risk "make them eventually out or soft or even accidently slip" today, and get them killed, 100%, tonight. Please don't try and tell me you thought it was a good play to fake doc yesterday, persumably to try and save the PRs, but that you don't understand this simple concept, because I won't believe you.

You said in your 612 that you "always end up throwing for town..." I assumed that, if you are town, that was part of the act to sell your 'accidental' Doc out to scum. You carry this on, though, and potentially that's exactly what you will end up doing; either by getting yourself falsely scumread and mislimmed, or by outting the PR today.

Please, before you reply, just take a few moments to think, and at least consider how it appears to the rest of us.

[Val89]

I'm rereading what happened at the end of Day 1 and this still sticks out as odd to me. Val, can you tell us your thought process here? You voted James shortly afterward when it looked like you picked up on Psyche's counter claim, but this vote and reasoning feels off.

I thought the logic was explained in the post itself, but to be clear: I had reason, for all of about 2 minutes, to take James' Doc claim at face value. Pysche knew it was false because there is no Doc/JK setup, but he said "I think I'm pretty sure JTN is scum. To keep setup ambiguous from scum for at least one night longer, someone should go ahead and hammer."

Being the silly newbie that I am, the "I think I'm pretty sure" and the reference to "keeping the setup ambiguous" threw me off. As I explained, I knew that scum already knew the setup from James' Doc claim, without having to know the second PR. I instinctively took it to mean that was Pysche lying to us, trying to induce a newbie into hammering a potential town PR by saying "eh, I think this could be scum, hammer for this bullshit reason that sounds plausible but can't be" and trading his life for the town Doc.

I made the vote, and then realised there was no world in which even scum!Pysche gets away with that. He wasn't merely thinking James 'might' be scum, he KNEW he was scum, and I had blown it and said stuff I shouldn't. If I had my time again, I would not have made that vote, I would have paused and thought for longer, but at the time, I panicked thinking scum was making a move on our Doc, and I want to get that thought onto the thread sharpish.

The moment I realised James was 100% scum, I checked to make sure my vote was indeed the hammer, given all the double voting stuff, then dropped it. The rest of the play afterwards was directed at trying to mitigate the damage I felt I had done with that stupid vote, and make sure no other town came in and put their foot in it; mixed with a bit of WIFOM - I assume that was the intent behind the two fake claims also - and I thought that it would be better clear up the confusion today rather than have any discussion pre-nightkill. I now feel that, given it didn't work and Pysche was the nightkill anyway, that we are better served moving that discussion to tomorrow. Roden's logic in 636 is sound in that regard.

I want to remind everyone that we all know we are in row 2 because of the JK flip, and regardless of which column we are in, there is nothing to stop the remaining mafia from killing whomever they like tonight. There is no point rolecoping or roleblocking anyone, because they might as well just kill them and the results they have or the benefit of being conftown dies with them, so for all intents and purposes, the remaining mafia might as well be another goon. Town gets diddly-squat from resolving which column we are in, and only run the risk of outting the remain PR if there is one, and make no mistake - outting them here is a 100% death sentence if we don't flip the right one today.

Yeah, we could have a Tracker (or a Friendly Neighbor), but I wouldn't pry anymore into that. Even if no one slips they're the 2nd PR, if enough people slip that they aren't, scum can use PoE to find the last one. It's best not to bring it up unless necessary.

This. 100% this.

If the lim pool for today is Clark, Chuck, and for whatever reason me, fine; so be it. Pick which ever you think out of that list is most scummy and drop your vote and hope we flip the right one today, but please stop incidentially PR hunting and doing scum's work for them.

VOTE: Chuck Shurley

[Val89]

That looks like that's Chuck at E-1. Next vote will hammer.

[Val89]

Anyway, since I am at E-1

He knows he ain't hammered Grandpa. I don't even thinl even T3 expects that sort of thing to work anymore, merely it's something they do so often it would be commented on in it's absence, you know?

In any case, If you are town Chuck, I don't think you need to worry about about being mislimmed here, "easy" or no. Everyone else who has posted today seems to think the pool is Me, you and ClarkBar, and frankly, I think the likleyhood is 90% that it is between you and Clark. My vote is on you, and I think you should flip first, because I think there is a slightly higher chance it is you over Clark, but it's a close call.

The only reason I'm not happy with calling it PoE solved at this point and encourage we all go cards-to-the-table style is that I don't want to piss away our potential PR advantage on the small but non-zero chance we are being led up the garden path by very clever scum play; and you know we have some very able scum players in this list. If you agree with Nancy though, that scum is in Me, Clark, Chuck, she is perfectly correct. There is enough time to lim all 3 of us, and even if the 2 NKs in the meantime fall out of that pool, thats still leaves 2 versus the remaining one from that list on D4 for the town victory.

In other words - if you think scum is in {Me, Clark, Chuck}, you should hammer, because town wins if you stick to that pool, and it appears there is at least 4 who have already decided that is pool; and if you think there is a chance that scum falls outside of that pool, you should hammer if you think a Chuck flip has reasonable equity of seeing the Mod post "gg's", before our continued discussions risk giving away what chance we get of information from our potential PR if we are dealing with a deepwolf.

[Val89]

Now that I think about it some more, if you are still around Chuck:

If you a) really are town; and b) honestly beleive the last scum is in me or Clark, you should give serious consideration to just hammering yourself here.

Unless I've grossly misunderstood the win condition for a solo scum, there has to be one scum and one town left for them to be declared the winning faction. It's D2. There are 7 left. You go today, and scum kills someone, that's 5. Then they lim me tomorrow, and then if it turns out its Clark (or vice versa) thats still 2 townies alive to lim the remaining.

Town can't lose, UNLESS the scum is out of that pool, in which case the night-kills are going to become important, and we ought to make it as difficult as possible for scum to decide whom to kill. They won't be able to kill inside that pool that is being scumread because then thats 4 people that a generally considered locktown against the remaining scumread on D3, with the potential then that at least some of the slots are mechanically confirmed by PR. In other words, even a deepwolf thats drawn zero suspision so far is probably lost in that case, as long as we end the day now and give the remaining scum some anxiety over whom to select as the nightkill tonight.

[Val89]

i was thinking how nancy could be scum here.

Nah, as much as a pains me given how strong I scumread her D1, I think Nancy can be yeeted from the pool. You, T3 or Roden would be the "deepwolfs" I would be concerned about.

i wanted chuck to concede as scum if teh ywere lol

I don't see the point. What were you going to do if they go "nah, you just hammered a VT, idiots!"? Suggest we unvote them and move to someone else? James was playing we had hammered our Doc even after it was clear he WAS hammered, so a refusal to conceed even if you think you are hammered means diddly-squat.

[Val89]

Grandpa, you are getting very close to incidentialy PR hunting again.

Perhaps you would like to tell me what you think is wrong with my analysis as to why a Clark hammer leads to best chances for a town win here, if you do disagree? And if you do agree, explain why you are continuing to fish rather than drop the hammer?

You fake claimed Doc, so you must have some understanding at least as why we are are uncomfortable with scum having this information on the table.

Just on the off-chance you truely beleive asking "X, do you beleive Y is town?" is helping solve the game, let me be explicit so there is no mistake here - the answer to those questions are more likley to give clues as to who might have got a FN notification from whom, or who might have tracked someone and seen them not visiting at the time of the NK etc, and thus give clues to who might be the PR, or just as bad, who isn't. Please stop it.

I'm really having a hard time justifying to myself why I think you are town while you carry on with this sort of thing.

[Val89]

NO I THOUGHT T3 WAS TRACKER.

So did scum. Thank you for your sacrifice, T3.

rr?

[Val89]

It does? How so, Grandpa?

[Val89]

Nancy and Roden are town, Clark and Grandpa scum. Call me a copy cat if you like.

[Val89]

I really need to hear fom Grandpa on what's in James' ISO that makes him think {Clark, Roden}.

[Val89]

i think everyone should rr now!

Do you still think this?

[Val89]

Can you give me why you are town not mentioning EoD of day one nor mentioning anything regarding your reads?

I'm sure we had this conversation last game, Grandpa. I don't think it means anything to ask someone why they are town, and it means even LESS to say "don't use X or Y".

As an excersise, can you tell us why you must be town?

[Val89]

This is a 9 player game, so I think you have 1 too many.

I thought "there is one scum between" Clark and Grandpa went without saying, but OK.

I'm 90% sure it's Clark, but Grandpa has given me some reasons to think he might be scum in this game. That appears to be his superpower, though, even as town.

The pool yesterday was {Val, Clark, Chuck}. If we don't flip right today, the NK is 100% either Nancy or Roden; they aren't going to kill me or Clark when we have such suspicion on us.

I would rather flip ClarkBar today over myself obviously, but if Nancy is adamant that Grandpa is town and is happy to bet the game on it, then I would rather you limmed me today so I'm not alive in the LyLo; as long as Clark is going tomorrow for the gg's.

VOTE: ClarkBar

[Val89]

T3 being the NK last night seems very, very odd to me.

It seems like they did us a favour in eliminating someone I might well have been worried about today.

The "deep dive" I said I was doing at the start of D2 was looking at the newbie games T3 had played in, and looked at where he had fake claimed. He's played 8 completed games, 4 of which were scum, and he faked crumbed/fakeclaimed in 3 of the 4. As town, he never crumbed before (at least none that I saw or were discussed) even when he did roll PR (2057, and 2063 where his Mason partner did the job for him); so if both me and T3 had survived, I would be giving serious consideration to making a case we should be considering T3 as scum today. I can't get my head around why they thought that was the right kill.

[Val89]

He voted for me today, so who do you think it was, Grandpa?

[Val89]

Yes, I scum read Nancy D1.

[Val89]

but unless I missed it I am unclear why there was a higher chance (in Val's mind) that Chuck was scum over me.

I don't remember if I ever did explain it, but it was because I had initially townleaned you on D1, and only came into a scumlean as I re-read everything over the course of N1, whereas I hadn't ever had a moment I thought Chuck was town. To my mind, that made Chuck more likley to flip scum that you.

[Val89]

thats why we lim between clark and val..?

No; she is suggested we Lim you and leave Clark and Me alive for D3; trusting whomever of her or Roden survives can correctly sort the scum between Me and Clark.

How did you take that to mean she was suggested we lim of of us?

[Val89]

Nancy, the only ELO I don't really want is Grandpa/Me with you alive; because I worry the spat we had D1 would influence your decision.

With that in mind, even though I think ClarkBar is the likley candidate, me or Grandpa should go today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grandpa

[Val89]

I’m leaning you > Clark now due to that misrep.

OK, if that is the case, then I have to be lim today I think.

[Val89]

I don't want to lim Clark today on the chance it is scum!Grandpa; because if it is, he kills Roden tonight, and you lim me tomorrow; and that's his path to victory.

If I was sure it would be GG once Clark flipped, I wouldn't care, but I'm not 100% sure at all, particulary since T3 died.

[Val89]

What makes you so confident that I would be in elo and not Roden?

Because Roden is town reading me. Why would scum take me to ELO with someone who is townreading me?

[Val89]

I know you don't want to be, but If I am left alive, you are, 100%.

There is no way scum takes Roden into the Elo with me alive tomorrow when he is townreading me, because that is sucide.

[Val89]

Between Roden, Me, and either (grandpa, clark)?

It would be GG, because me and Roden would vote whomever we don't flip of {Grandpa, Clark}. Thats why that's never going to happen; scum know its GG, WIFOM or not.

You and Roden are 100% Locktown to me now. Maybe there is some outside posibility Grandpa or Clark convince Roden to lim me, but given his reads today, would you bet the game on that if you were scum?

[Val89]

I never thought I would ever find myself pleased at having been scumread, but the possibility that it would otherwise be me casting the decision vote in a ELO with Grandpa in it chills me to the core.

[Val89]

and how the wagon on Chuck went goes strongly in my favor,

Clark, would you mind explaining what you mean by this?

[Val89]

I had roden and clark as the poe, but I gave up pushing that narrative because both Clark and Val and you nancy decided to townread Roden same with Nancy

No, Grandpa; if you are town, and you think there is an actual decent case to why Roden could be scum; you make it. You don't just give up because others are currently townreading them. If Roden is the scum here, Town winning the game depends on town!you convincing the rest of us of that.

This is the scummiest thing I've heard anyone say all game.

[Val89]

Roden, if you are sure I am town, and you don't want me self-hammering; how about this for a plan:

Clark is already voting me and can't do so again; How about YOU vote me, and then if Grandpa hammers me, you take that at an absolute 100% cast iron scum claim and whoever is alive agrees he goes tomorrow, no discussion, gg.

If Nancy hammers me, then the likleyhood is she would have hammered me tomrrow in the 3p, and it's best to get my flip done before it costs us the game. If potentially Nacy could be deciding on dropping the hammer on Val or {Grandpa,Clark}, and drop it wrong will cost us the game, perhaps we should have that decision today, when the wrong one won't be an auto scumwin.

[Val89]

It's 100% in ClarkBar, GrandpaMo; but I'm really struggling to decide who is the best chance of just start up ending the game today.

I think it's clear there is no PR now. We've all come out and talked today, and nobody has a claim - I was trying to soft that I might have a PR role at the end of D1 and into D2 in order to try and maybe draw the NK, but I'm VT. If there was a PR, its either FN, and one of the slots is conftown and should have gotten that message to a breathing slot by now; or it's a tracker, in which case they should have cleared at least one slot, if not two, by now as well as being conftown themselves; and the nobody has come out to clear slot mechanicially when that would help us a lot right now. I would treat any PR claim henseforth with a HUGE pinch of salt, particulary if it came from Grandpa.

If there was a PR, then T3 dying in belief that maybe he was actually tracker and it was the claim-retraction was false makes a bit of sense, but if there is no PR, then his death must have been for another reason. T3 is the biggest risk to a scum!Grandpa, as Grandpa himself has been open about since D1, so I think T3 death makes scum!Grandpa a bit more likley.

Then again, no PR means Grandpa's apparent PR hunting on D2 wasn't scummy. Why would scum PR hunt when they know there is no PR? That makes scum!Grandpa less likley.

So yeah....fuck.

[Val89]

straight-up ending*

[Val89]

I really need to hear fom Grandpa on what's in James' ISO that makes him think {Clark, Roden}.

I just went back to the start of today to try look at the vote pattern Grandpa is complaining about; and realised that I don't think we ever got an answer to this, did we?

[Val89]

???

Again, I was never to PR hunt in the first place.

Hang about, I am saying that you PR hunting on D2 makes you

less

likley to be scum, and you come in and tell me that WASN'T what you were doing?

[Val89]

Then realized that there would be NO way for an Roden/Nancy elim to happen on this day so no point to push that narrative this day.

Again, Grandpa, this is so scummy it hurts!

If you are town, and you believe scum is in Roden or Nancy, you push them; because the only way we win is for scum to be voted out.

If you truely believe scum is in Roden or Nancy, psuh them, and push them hard, even if you are only one doing it, because your faction winning DEPENDS on you - you are the only one seeing the truth, and if you sit quiet, town loss this game.

Scum on the other hand: the way scum wins this game is to get two town lims. Thats the victory path. So, yeah, scum can decide they aren't gettting a Nancy/Roden lim, and decide they have to go for Clark + Val, in either order; but town!Grandpa CAN NOT have this attitude, so if you are town!Grandpa - wise up.

[Val89]

I did, didn't I?

Would you give me the post number? I think I am going blind...

[Val89]

You just said it in 901! - "no point pushing that narrative this day"....

[Val89]

l im not scumreading roden todya there is no point.

No; Grandpa, there is 100% NOT a reason not to scumread Roden today if you think he is scum, none what-so-ever.

If you think there is the remotest chance that Roden is scum, you need to make that case. If we vote off clark today, and the final pool is Me, You, Roden, there is zero,

ZERO

chance, baring some really obvious out of this world slip, that would make me vote Roden over you, no matter how hard you push him. Tomorrow is too late. It has to be today. I can't speak for Clark, but I imagine given his reads list, the same applies if I am the lim today.

You saying "Im not scum reading X because I can't get them limmed today" is the equivilant of saying "I am scum and I'm not going to push people I can't get limmed". Why can't you see that?

[Val89]

And if I am wrong about that, we push the narrative on day 4, if roden isn't town.

And I have literally just said that is too late!

Did you read my 918?

[Val89]

And yet you still tell me you won't "push the narrative" that Roden is scum today because you can't get him limmed?

Let me ask you this another way - if we limmed Clark today, and they turn out not to be scum; and assuming for some currently unfathomable reason Roden isn't the NK, Who do you vote for D4 between me and Roden? What if I am the lim today, who do you vote then, Clark or Roden?

[Val89]

So, it should be GG then. Nancy is town, I agree 100%, I am mechanically confirmed town; so scum is in {Clark, Grandpa}. It doesnt matter which order we lim them in, right?

[Val89]

And that reveal also means Grandpa's D2 play suddenly because scummy AF again. I think my vote is in the right place.

[Val89]

I'm with you; I've

wanted

Nancy to be scum after what happened D1, because I think I'll sleep better at night knowing that reaction came from scum doing scum things; but reading the thread again over the course of N2; I decided if that Nancy V James thing was scum theatre, they both deserve an Oscar, and the win for it.

There wasn't a lot to work with D2, but I saw nothing scummy from D1 onwards, and her reaction to realising she might be casting the deciding vote in a tricky ELO seemed genuine as hell, and I felt elgimately sorry for her position. I don't see scum doing that. She's locktown.

[Val89]

Yeah, even if it is Clark, he can't kill Roden because that would confirm him as tracker, and Nancy is never going to vote me in that situation. He has to NK me or Nancy, and the remaining two are always voting Clark D4. The only tricky business is if Roden is fake claiming, but there would have been absolutely no need having been townread by basically the whole playerlist - he could have just stayed quiet and rode that to victory.

The crumb is pretty compelling too - I remember doing a bit of a double take when I read that, but I guess I just forgot all about it. I also remember thinking T3 was also softing Mason with Psyche at some point on d!, which was odd after his tracker crumb, but I don;t actually remember which post made me think that, now.

Nancy, unless you are about to tell us you are actually the tracker, I think we are done here.

[Val89]

What did make you decide to fake crumb tracker as town this game, T3? Was it because you've done it a fair bit as scum and didn't want to get meta'd for it?

[Val89]

I was softing that I was the other PR as hard as I could after the James hammer and into D2 because I thought you (T3) actually were the tracker, and were fake-retracting. I was hoping to give scum some anxiety over who to pick for the NK. Of course, they knew there was only one PR, so it was never going to work, but at the time I thought it was worth a try.